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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Analysis of Scott Peterson Murder Case Developments
Aired August 16, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AMBER FREY, SCOTT PETERSON'S FORMER MISTRESS: Was Laci aware of the situation about me?
SCOTT PETERSON, ON TRIAL FOR WIFE AND UNBORN SON'S MURDER: Yes.
FREY: She was?
FREY: Really? How'd she respond about it?
FREY: An 8-months woman fine?
NANCY GRACE, COURT TV: Tonight, day four of secretly taped phone calls. Intimate audiotapes played in open court in Scott Peterson's double murder trial. Amber Frey grills her married lover when his wife goes missing. Peterson claims Laci was fine with the affair. Does Amber Frey ever get a single straight answer? We go to the courthouse with in court experts. And tonight, we play back those bombshell recordings. And we're taking your calls. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
GRACE: Welcome to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us. Before we go to any of an all-star panel, first, we've got to hear the tape, the sound that has just been released in the last few moments by Judge Delucchi. And in this sound, Amber Frey wants to know, where is Laci?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
Frey: Do you know where she is?
PETERSON: No, I don't. I wish I did. (UNINTELLIGIBLE). We need to know.
FREY: What was that?
PETERSON: The one thing we need.
FREY: You know, I read the paper today, and it said today was her baby shower?
FREY: And her baby's due date you told me was the 16th, but I've read now twice it's on my birthday, February 10.
PETERSON: Yes. Well, her, she had an appointment Monday the 23rd, and the doctor said it was the 16th.
FREY: That's hitting home pretty...
PETERSON: I know.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: You are hearing it just the way the jury did. Again, welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV in for Larry tonight. Let's go out to the courthouse. Standing by, CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. You know, Ted, the tape is still pouring out of the courtroom, Delucchi releasing it as soon as the jury hears it. This last bit of sound, I've got to find out what the jury's reaction was to Scott Peterson and his mistress discussing Laci's due date.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, this was something that when it came out, it was confusing to a lot of people. And I know the Rocha family was upset when Scott said publicly that the due date was different than the 10th, saying it was the 16th. He said that they had this later appointment on the 23rd and the doctor basically changed it. Now to find out that it was Amber's birthday, too, has this weird significance, I guess, in terms of well, Amber sure thinks it does. And that comes across in this tape.
Today, hours and hours of these tapes. And it really did run the gamut. Different subjects were talked about. As we heard at the very beginning, she confronted him, asked if Laci knew about their relationship, to which he said yes. She blows up and said how could a woman eight months pregnant be fine with it? But he contends that. Which is the same thing he told police later.
The one thing that we've heard now twelve hours of these tapes, Scott Peterson has never once varied from his story when it's concerning Laci's disappearance that he told police. Which is very significant. However, there are all of these lies, which, of course, have been coming out throughout this.
Today there was some emotional portions of the testimony. Amber Frey broke down at one point when she was listening to herself break down in court on these tapes, talking about how this has ruined her life, basically saying she was so excited to meet him and then to find out that this was just all a bunch of bunk, that it just really, really demolished her. She cried in court.
Jackie Peterson cried in court today when she heard her son talk about how she had a mental -- or just a physical breakdown. She's fairly ill. During the search for Laci, she went to the hospital, Scott was telling Amber about that on the tape. She cried.
And the Rocha family got up and left at one point. Sharon Rocha and Ron Grantski -- Ron Grantski said on his way out, "I'm sick of listening to this stuff." Used a different word. But basically saying that he just couldn't stand to stomach listening to Scott Peterson talk to Amber Frey glowingly while of course people were looking for Laci.
GRACE: Michael Cardoza, is it true that Scott recited another poem to Amber Frey today?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, LEADING AREA DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, yet another one. The sad thing about it is Amber's biting in to all of this even though she knows she's on tape. She readily partakes of this. Going back to your question about watching the jury. I've done 25-plus years of jury trials and I'll tell you, I've watched juries, jurors, I've gotten in front of them and I've argued. And I see them shaking their head up and down, and then they do the exact opposite.
We've seen jurors in this case, fan through as they hand them the transcripts. They fan it, shake their head. You know, I've never been able to read a jury that way. And I don't know many trial attorneys that are. But I can tell you that they were intently looking at those transcripts for the first couple of days. Now they're looking on into the audience almost as if, I wonder who's out here today. Some have quit taking notes. They're bored with this stuff. I mean they're really bored with the tapes the district attorneys are putting on. So I'm not sure how much mileage they're getting out of these.
GRACE: Michael, you have said the jury is bored since day one. They didn't look bored at all to me.
CARDOZA: I'm telling you, Nancy, today they were bored. They were looking around. There were some good parts today. I mean, there was one part today where Amber asked Scott, "what did you do the night before?" "Did you go to bed with her?" "Did you sleep in the same bed?" And Scott really waffled on that. He wouldn't answer her question. Impliedly I look at that as taking the Fifth Amendment. He goes, "I'm not going to talk about that."
Now it really breaks down in gender lines. Because the women that I talk to outside the court said, see, that proves he did it. Look, he wouldn't answer that really important question. We think that's when he killed her.
The men talk about well, you know, he's having an affair with Amber. He's certainly not going to open up his life with his wife or Amber would go after him about that. So it really depends which side of the fence you're on here. These tapes could be interpreted two different ways. And that doesn't bode well for the district attorneys. I'll tell you.
GRACE: Chuck Smith, as a former San Mateo county prosecutor, including six years as a homicide prosecutor, Chuck Smith, is it that simple? I never found it to be true that you could go straight down gender lines.
CHUCK SMITH, FMR. SAN MATEO COUNTY PROSECUTOR: No, I disagree with Michael on that point. The importance of the testimony about what he did and whether he slept with his wife in the same bed on the evening of the 23rd, he could have easily said, hey, look, she's eight months pregnant, I wanted to let her have all the room. He didn't. Instead he suggested to Amber that there's a reason he's not sleeping with his wife. And he's deliberately distancing himself from his wife.
He does the same thing regarding his child. He never talks about it as my son, my child, our child. It's always her child or the child. And then later on today, even regarding the house, he says to Amber, oh, I'm at the house where she was abducted from. Not our house. He is deliberately distancing himself. And if I play amateur psychologist a little bit, I look at this and I say, here's a man who knows he's done something terribly wrong, and he can't come to grips with it even himself. So he's trying to really put himself outside it as if it's not him.
GRACE: You know, Ted Rowlands very quickly, I had noticed the same thing sitting in court. Whenever he refers to Conner, Laci's baby, he acts as if it's not his. He never said, it's not my baby. But he talks about Laci's baby, the baby, and when she asks him point- blank if he is suggesting it's not his, he really won't answer. Have you noticed that, Ted?
ROWLANDS: Yes. Today he again, the same thing come up where he just doesn't want to answer one way or another. He says he can't talk about the details in the case until there is a resolution. Which...
GRACE: A resolution?
ROWLANDS: Why can't he talk about whether or not is the father of the child or not? It's mind-boggling. Little things like that. He seems to be lying about things he doesn't need to be lying about. But he is keeping his story straight. And whenever she's trying to get stuff out of him that he doesn't want to talk about, he just backs off and he says no, I'm not going to talk about it until there's a resolution in this case and then you can find out everything. You don't know everything, Amber. Eventually I'll be able to tell you, but not right now.
And he continues with this theme throughout. And she pressed him. Today she was like a either a prosecutor or a defense attorney, really hammering away at him. And he stayed tough, and he took it basically. In fact, as you sit and listen to it, you're thinking why is this guy continuing to have conversations with this woman? You know, it's out. She knows it's out. Why not just hang up? But he continues to take it from her and she just hammered away. GRACE: Michael Cardoza, before we go to break, very quickly, did I hear correctly that he said the house where she was abducted? Did he say that today?
CARDOZA: No, he never said that today. Not that I heard. Never said that. But you know what's interesting. Everybody says that Amber's the big star witness this last three or four days. I'll tell you, she's been on the stand. Maybe 40 minutes here and the tapes are being played. The real star here, if you were to put it in those words, is Scott Peterson. He is testifying right now in front of the jury. The only difference is, he's not being cross-examined by the D.A.s, but rather by Amber Frey. So he's the real focus here.
GRACE: Very quickly, Chuck Smith, we've got to go to break, but before we go to break I wanted to ask you, we heard everyone saying he's keeping his story straight. But even when he's coming clean to Amber Frey, doesn't he continue to lie about going on sailing trips, and going out of state with his family?
SMITH: He continues to lie. And he also continues to suggest that he knows things about the disappearance, and about the whole situation which he's not telling her. Ultimately he never tells the police. He never tells the world. So what is it that he knows that he won't tell her?
GRACE: Well, I guess we'll have to wait for Scott Peterson to take the stand. We've got an all-star panel lined up. But before we go to break, take a listen to this sound that's being played in the courtroom. This is from January 6. While hundreds of volunteers were out scouring the countryside to find Laci and Conner, this is Scott Peterson on the phone with his girlfriend.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FREY: Another question for you, Scott. Tell me why I should not be afraid of you after learning...
SCOTT: I'm not -- I'm not an evil person.
FREY: You're not an evil person.
SCOTT: I am not. I would never hurt anyone.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FREY: You have to be in my shoes again and look through my eyes. And you've lied to me since day one. You lied since day one. It doesn't look favorable for you.
PETERSON: It's a horrible thing I did. There's no question.
FREY: You know, Shawn -- I just don't understand. You know, Shawn was so clear...with you several times. And again when she asked, you know, Scott, I heard you're married. She said all I care -- I don't care if you've been married, are you currently married? And you said what?
PETERSON: I said I lost my wife.
FREY: That you had lost your wife?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry tonight. And I want to thank you for being with us. Day four of the Amber tapes. In a Redwood City courtroom, at one point today, Laci Peterson's family got up and left the courtroom. What you just heard is just released sound from the courtroom. Judge Delucchi has just allowed it to go out to the public. You are hearing sound, private conversations between Amber Frey and Scott Peterson the jury heard earlier today.
I want to introduce to you an all-star panel. There in Redwood City, Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent. He's been in the courtroom from the get-go.
Defense attorney Michael Cardoza also in Redwood City, chuck smith, former prosecutor.
From Atlanta, defense attorney Chris Pixley.
Here in New York, Court TV anchor and civil rights lawyer Lisa Bloom.
P.S. tonight, 11:00 p.m., special coverage of the Peterson case on Court TV.
Also with us in Redwood City, Richard Cole, he's covering the Peterson case for the Daily News Group. He also was inside the courtroom today.
You know, Richard Cole, she is really grilling him. You know, they could have used her in the World War. She's not letting up. OK? But he does stick to his story. Why does he keep going back to the well? Why not just hang up the phone?
RICHARD COLE, "REDWOOD CITY DAILY NEWS": Certainly every man who's listened to that tape wonders why Scott would do that. I think there is an explanation. The defense, I believe, is going to contend that Scott was playing a balancing game. He was trying to keep Amber from blowing up, from causing problems for his family, so he's -- one of the reasons that he's minimizing and not talking about his relationship with Laci is because he wants to suggest to Amber that there's still hope for them, and kind of keep her on the string.
Now his motivation for doing that, you can see that one of two ways. It could help the prosecution if you believe he's trying to keep her away from the police. It could help the defense if you just believe he just doesn't want any problems during the search for Laci. That he thinks this would be a distraction.
GRACE: Ted Rowlands, earlier you had mentioned that from hearing all of the tapes, that Peterson has stuck to his story. He has not wavered. What did you mean by that?
ROWLANDS: Well, he hasn't wavered in terms of what he did the night that Laci was reported missing, or the night before, and during the search. He's sticking to the same story that he's told the Modesto police throughout. So he's not tripping up on details or anything. He's not really providing anything significant in terms of what happened to Laci Peterson during these conversations. These hours and hours of conversations. I mean they have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he cheated on Laci Peterson. And he's a liar beyond anyone's comprehension. But the tapes really have not brought anything in terms of what happened to Laci from Scott's own words. But, you know, they are effective in certain ways to show that really, boy, he was conducting two different things in his mind. Searching for Laci and still keeping this woman at bay.
GRACE: Chris Pixley, agree or disagree?
CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, I agree. And I would also add, though, something to what Richard Cole was saying. Quite honestly I think that Scott Peterson's reason for staying on these phone conversations is a lot simpler. I think that he's naive. Incredibly naive. Here's a man who thought he could tell these fanciful stories to Amber Frey and keep her on the hook. And he did that for a period of time. But when she told him, look, I know the truth, he seemed to be ready to say, uncle, all right. So you know it. And apparently I've destroyed the relationship in the process.
And that's when she reels him back in, Nancy. And of course she has to, because the police are working with her, and they need this guy on the phone. They're working desperately to get a confession out of him. They need him to keep talking. And that's why Amber says, well, you know, you've done some terrible things but maybe we still have a future together. And this naive guy, he goes for it again.
GRACE: Lisa, naive?
LISA BLOOM, ANCHOR, COURT TV: I think he's desperately trying to hold on to her, Nancy. Look, Amber Frey, I think, is Scott Peterson's fantasy girl. She's the beautiful, thin, massage therapist who's willing to be sexual with him. And I think he cares about her. I think he was smitten with her and he's trying desperately to hold on to her.
But Nancy, look at the important evidence that came out on those tapes today. Scott Peterson's smearing the name of his missing wife, implying that she's the adulterer. That the baby is not Scott Peterson's, maybe somebody else's. That she was willing to have an open marriage. That she's not sleeping with him. He is stooping to a new low today. Despicable conduct. Smearing his missing wife's name. And why? In a desperate attempt to hold on to Amber. That maybe by concocting this new set of lies she's going to stick with him. That's why she stays on those calls. That's why he stays with her for hours and hours, taking her venom, taking her blasts over and over again. I think he wants to hold on to her. And I think that very much helps the prosecution.
GRACE: Michael Cardoza, does it help the prosecution?
CARDOZA: Does it help? Sure. You don't like this guy. I mean this jury must hate him by now. But for all the wrong reasons. Not because he might have killed somebody. But because he's such a felony, cad, liar. That's why they really dislike him. And Lisa, I couldn't disagree with you more. You had to hear the tapes in court. It wasn't quite as bad as you're portraying it. I'll tell you, it's not that bad. Scott continues to deny. They've given him a forum to deny what's happening here.
BLOOM: Put it all together, Michael. He's saying that Laci's the one leading a double life. She's the one that's an adulterer. She's the one misleading family and friends. That's the implication when he won't answer questions about whether they're sleeping together, about the baby is his. What other implication is there? Laci is the adulterer. That's what he's trying to convey to Amber.
GRACE: Hey, guys. Wait a minute. Michael, Michael, Michael. Before we go to break, very quickly, Chris Pixley, you mentioned that your take is that Scott Peterson is incredibly naive. So he continues these long exhaustive phone calls. They just go on and on and round and round and never seem to get anywhere. You call him naive.
But do you remember last week when Amber Frey was describing how he brought the single rose and cut off part of the rose, and was rubbing it up and down her -- I don't want to get Sterned (ph). So I'll just let it go. You still are telling me this is the guy that showed up with a bottle of champagne, chilled with the strawberries on date one? This is Mr. Naive? Did I get that straight?
PIXLEY: Do you think that's smooth? I mean, that's not something -- is that the way you want to be romanced, Nancy?
GRACE: It worked.
PIXLEY: I think it all plays...
GRACE: Don't make this personal, Pixley.
PIXLEY: No, and I'm not. But this is more of the same from him. I mean, Scott is naive. I think Scott felt that he could have this relationship and have his marriage with Laci, as well. Certainly he did that early on in the marriage. He seems to be doing it again. The suggestion is made that maybe he wants the single life when the fact is he's carrying on a double life very happily. He did it in the past. He's doing it now and there's no reason to believe that he had to knock off his wife to continue.
I would agree with Lisa in one respect. I think the inference is there that somehow Laci was OK with all of this. Certainly he said she's fine and that maybe there's more to it. That maybe this isn't his child. And I think that that is difficult for the jury to listen to. But -- and I also think it's a problem for Scott to put out these teasers, to say you're going to hear more. Because the jury will want to hear from Scott on that and they're not likely to.
GRACE: And of course, Chris, as we go to break I just want to make it very clear to anyone listening that DNA tests were run on the baby. Conner is definitely Scott Peterson's son. As we go to break, here is sound the jury heard from January the 6th.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
Peterson: It hurts that you could believe that I could have something to do with her disappearance. But I understand your anger."
FREY: Really. You know what, actually. I have not said, those words have come out of my mouth, Scott, now have they?
PETERSON: No, but everyone has been pointing the finger at me...
FREY: No, they came out of your mouth.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FREY: What was the situation before all this happened in your mind, Scott?
PETERSON: You know what it was.
FREY: No, I -- I know what I thought and led to believe it was between you and I but what about Laci? What was she led to believe in knowing what was going on? We obviously had no understanding of each other.
PETERSON: What's that?
FREY: I said we obviously had no understanding of each other.
PETERSON: Well, because I lied to you.
FREY: Because you (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
PETERSON: Yes, that's why you couldn't understand me.
PETERSON: That's why you couldn't understand me. It's because I lied to you.
FREY: What are you talking -- I couldn't understand you because you lied to me? PETERSON: Yes. You said we obviously had no understanding of each other. No, you did not have an understanding of me or, you know, the situation because I lied to you.
FREY: But I'm saying now was Laci aware of the situation about me?
FREY: She was?
FREY: Really? How did she respond about it?
FREY: An eight-month woman fine about another woman?
PETERSON: You don't know all the facts, Amber, you don't know all the facts.
FREY: Oh! She was OK with it but you -- you continued to lie to me and couldn't be with me on the holidays but she was OK, she was fine with knowing about me?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry tonight. I want to thank you for being with us. We are bringing you sound that was played in that Redwood City courtroom. And right now -- what you just heard was from January the 7th. Take a listen. This is sound from January the 12th, as the search for Laci and Conner goes on. These are secretly recorded phone conversations between Amber Frey and her lover, Scott Peterson, now on trial for murder. This is sound that Judge Delucchi has just released. It's from January 12. Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FREY: You're a compulsive liar, pathological liar if I could put it in terms in that. Now I don't know what to believe from you. And I remember late at night when you said, "Amber, no matter what, or when I say you're beautiful, I don't just mean, you know, you're physical, but your beauty inside." So when I say that, remember that. And that wasn't special, what you're trying to say the other day that I was beautiful.
PETERSON: Oh, yes. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
FREY: So if I'm all these things, why are you putting me through this right now? Why do I have to feel this hurt, Scott?
PETERSON: You don't deserve it, Amber. I did this to you. I dragged you into this.
FREY: Why do I have to...
PETERSON: There's no reason for you to be going through this, Amber. There's absolutely no reason for you to be going through this except for me.
FREY: It's like a nightmare.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Richard Cole is with us. He's been covering the Peterson case for the Daily News Group. Richard, was that the juncture where Amber Frey began to cry in court? OK, I've lost Richard Cole. Let me then go to Ted Rowlands. You were in the courtroom. Is that the juncture where Amber Frey began to cry in court?
ROWLANDS: Yes, yes, right around there. And she continued talking about remembering on Christmas telling her mother how happy she was that she met this guy, and perfect guy, and yes, she was in court and she broke down listening to herself sort of go through this whole thing. You know, you could hear on the tape, this was obviously a nonscripted portion of it, where she went off, and you know, seems very believable, at least it comes across that way on these tapes.
GRACE: And Chuck Smith, is there any reaction from the jury when various players in this case, be they the Rocha family, the Peterson family, or Amber Frey, get up and leave the courtroom, or break down in tears?
SMITH: You know, Nancy, there's just such a fascinating dynamic in the courtroom. Amber Frey is not sitting on the witness stand where a witness traditionally sits while these things are being played. She's sitting in the second row, next to Gloria Allred with the Rocha family. And the back row of jurors, when they look to their left, have a perfect view of her. And I often see them watching her, sizing her up.
What's also interesting is Scott Peterson. During those days, weeks ago when Mark Geragos was just destroying these prosecution witnesses, Scott Peterson, when he walked in and out, had a swagger and a confidence about him that you could almost taste.
Now it's different. I mean, now when he walks in, he's almost slinking in. You know, during the break today, I was downstairs in the courthouse cafeteria and I see both these families come in and they both sit there opposite from each other, and I am just so struck by what wonderful people both sides feel. And how can they be in that courtroom? How can they be in a cafeteria, sitting there having coffee across from each other? It's just a fascinating dynamic, a real human drama to watch it unfold.
GRACE: You know, Chuck, I've wondered that a million times during jury trials. The courtroom -- the courthouse cafeteria is truly the melting pot. Witnesses, families from both sides, lawyers from both sides, sometimes even jurors are down there getting coffee and tea and forced to sit down. You can't go in the courtroom with food or beverage. So basically, there you are. And there's nowhere to go.
Joining us right now, the attorney for Amber Frey, Gloria Allred. Welcome, Gloria.
GLORIA ALLRED, AMBER FREY'S ATTORNEY: Thank you.
GRACE: And a question. Do you think the jury notices, do they turn around and look when Amber Frey begins to cry or breaks down or someone leaves the courtroom during testimony?
ALLRED: I think this is a very observant jury. I'm not really sure whether all of the people on the jury can actually see Amber from the angle that they're sitting and where she's sitting. But you know, I think that, in general, they're paying attention to the case.
GRACE: I've noticed that your client, Amber, has broken down at certain particular junctures. What made her break down and cry today?
ALLRED: Well, obviously, this has been a painful situation for Amber, and playing the tapes brings back memories that are very painful. And so at certain times, when she thinks of that, it just hurts. Simple as that.
GRACE: You know, Gloria, when she began to cry in that taped conversation, I don't think that was acting. That sounded like the real deal to me.
ALLRED: Oh, I think you're right, Nancy. I mean, when she's crying, that's Amber expressing the hurt. I mean, Scott Peterson told her so many lies. He knew how much trust meant to her because they had discussed it. And he acknowledges that on the tape. And still, knowing how much trust meant to her, knowing how she had been hurt in the past, he still allowed her to trust him. In fact, he manipulated her into trusting him, and then he betrayed that trust in a way that was so hurtful. And you know, I think a lot of women know what I'm talking about when I say that really hurts.
GRACE: Well, Gloria, I got to tell you, I've been listening to the way she's grilling Scott Peterson. I said point-blank they could have used her in the world war. You know, she's a great inquisitor. I'm very surprised she hasn't totally just cracked him in half. But he never seems to hang up. How much help is she getting from the police or the district attorney's office in this questioning? Did they give her a script, or is she flying solo here?
ALLRED: Well, I think that's going to come out through the testimony, Nancy. But that does raise an interesting point because some of her questioning is hostile, is intense, is persistent. And so, you know, a lot of people might have said, You know what? I'm not going to deal with this anymore. Good-bye, Amber. I don't need to be subjected to that. But not Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson hung in there.
So I think it is fair to conclude the reason he hung in was because he wanted to continue a relationship with Amber Frey. There really can't be any other reason. Even if Mark Geragos wanted to argue that he's trying to keep her emotionally at bay, you can make that argument maybe before the press conference in which she announced that she was having a relationship with Scott. But what about afterwards? Then his cover was blown, but yet he still persists in the relationship with Amber.
GRACE: Gloria Allred, do you ever feel damned if you do and damned if you don't? If she had fumbled on the stand, everyone would have said, Well, they didn't prepare her. Now that she is articulate and, obviously, someone has worked with her, everybody's screaming, Oh, Gloria Allred told her what to say.
ALLRED: Well, I mean, I think Amber will answer those questions under cross, if they're asked. And I would suspect that Mark will want to ask certain questions. Of course, he's not going to be allowed to invade the attorney/client relationship, and I think he knows that.
But having said that, I think she got some really interesting answers out of Scott. For example, he said he loved, he loved Laci. Well, if he loved her so much, and if he did tell her after the first date that he was having a relationship, I mean, why did he then go to the Christmas party with Amber and leave his eight-month-pregnant wife alone at a Christmas party? Is that a sign that you love your wife?
GRACE: Well, Gloria Allred, she's doing great on the stand and great with the tapes right now. But remember, Mark Geragos will have his day in court. I advise a crash helmet for Amber Frey once cross- examination starts. You know, safety first, OK?
ALLRED: She is going to tell the truth. I can assure you of that. Whether it helps or hurts one side or another, that's not going to be her concern. She's going to tell the truth.
GRACE: Gloria Allred, thank you for being with us.
ALLRED: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: As you know, we are bringing you tape as Judge Delucchi is releasing it, new sound as he is releasing it from the courtroom. The jury heard it all day long, and LARRY KING is bringing it to you tonight. Stay with us.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
PETERSON: You haven't been watching the news, obviously.
PETERSON: I have not been traveling during the last couple weeks. I have -- I've lied to you that I've been traveling.
PETERSON: The girl I'm married to, her name is Laci.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FREY: So are you going to talk to your family about me? Well, at this point, it's inevitable. It's going to. But I mean, what's your thought or output on that?
PETERSON: Well, I mean, obviously, you know, I want them to know you.
PETERSON: What's that?
PETERSON: Why? Because I -- we talked about it. I have that hope that we can have some kind of relationship.
FREY: In a month (ph) with everything else that is happening?
PETERSON: Well, I mean, yes. I mean -- this is obviously -- you know, I'm -- I'm obviously -- you know, I'm physically sick on a day- to-day because all my energy is working towards finding Laci. But yes, I have that hope. I mean, I care about you a great deal. You know that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV, in for Larry tonight. Thank you for being with us.
You just heard new sound. That was from January the 8th. That was played in court today for this jury. These are secretly recorded phone calls between Amber Frey and Scott Peterson, Amber Frey doing the recording at the behest of the Modesto police.
To Michael Cardoza. Michael, do you think Peterson knew he was being taped?
CARDOZA: I'll tell you what, Nancy, great question. January 6, Kirk McAllister, the defense attorney from Modesto, comes on board, starts to represent Peterson. Did he tell him not to talk to anybody? Did he tell him to take the 5th should anybody talk to him? Did he coach him if there were pretext phone calls?
I'll tell you what. That jury's going to go back into that jury room and ask that very same question. Did he know he was being taped? Had he lawyered up at that time? Will that put these tapes in a much different perspective? Interesting question because he continually denies.
And then you hear -- Gloria said a little while ago, you know, he wanted a long-term relationship with Amber. Listen to what he just said. He didn't say, I love you or, I'm in love with you. He said something pretty noncommittal there, like, you know, I'm interested, but not that interested in you.
BLOOM: Michael Cardoza, what he just said on that tape...
CARDOZA: Now, who's this, Lisa?
BLOOM: This is Lisa Bloom. And what he just said on that tape...
CARDOZA: Hi, Lisa.
BLOOM: -- on January 8 -- hello! Nice to talk to you, Michael.
CARDOZA: No, hey, Lisa -- Lisa...
BLOOM: Two weeks -- wait, Michael!
CARDOZA: He says different things...
BLOOM: Two weeks after Laci goes missing...
CARDOZA: ... each time. I agree.
BLOOM: Two weeks after Laci goes missing, he says to Amber, I'd like you to meet my family. I mean, this is a guy who's moving on, who knows his wife is never coming back, Michael. This is a guy who wants a relationship with Amber, and he wants it bad!
CARDOZA: Hey, you know what? You keep your friends close, and you keep your enemies closer. He wanted to keep tabs on her. He wanted to be sure if she did go to the police, he knew what was going on, which brings me to -- you know, during the tape, he said, Lisa, Hey, if you want to go to the police, go ahead. That's up to you, Amber. If you want to talk to people, go ahead, Amber. That's up to you.
BLOOM: Because as far as he's concerned, she doesn't have any evidence against him. She only has evidence of their affair. That's been the defense position from the very beginning. But Michael, last point. December 24, the police searched Scott Peterson's home. What did they find? The phone book open to attorneys, criminal defense attorneys.
CARDOZA: Oh, please!
BLOOM: Of course he knew from the beginning he might be taped!
CARDOZA: They're not even putting that into evidence, Lisa.
BLOOM: That's why he doesn't confess...
CARDOZA: That's not coming in!
GRACE: Guys, Michael, Lisa, we've got to take a quick break. And as we go to break, I want you to hear sound the judge has released. This is from January 6, Amber Frey and Scott Peterson.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
PETERSON: The media has been telling everyone that I had something to do with her disappearance. For the past two weeks, I've been hunted by the media. And I just -- I don't want you to be involved in order to protect yourself. I know that I -- you know, I destroyed, and God, I hope -- I hope so much that this doesn't hurt you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FREY: So that night, what was it you guys did that evening together?
PETERSON: Previous evening, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we got our hair cut. I got a haircut, had a pizza and watched the movie "The Rookie."
FREY: And so you guys then went to bed together, woke up in the morning together?
FREY: No? OK. What -- then you explain then what it was you did.
PETERSON: Well, we got up in the morning and...
FREY: No, go back. After the movie.
PETERSON: After the movie, we went to sleep.
FREY: Just went straight to sleep?
FREY: Isn't that what I just said? I said, OK after the movie, you went to bed together, you woke up together? And you said no.
PETERSON: Yes, but you don't know all the facts of what you ask. So we went to sleep. We woke up and...
PETERSON: Amber, I don't -- I can't...
PETERSON: I can't tell you these things.
FREY: Why? Did she go to sleep with somebody else? You certainly couldn't have because you were faithful to me, right?
PETERSON: Amber, I told the police and her family...
FREY: Don't go back to that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Richard Cole, what do you make of that exchange?
COLE: Well, I think it goes back to what we've been talking about. Scott is -- is playing this very dangerous balancing game in which I think he's trying to minimize his relationship with Laci. Now, yes, I think he got some advice from Kirk McAllister, his attorney, to stop talking. Obviously, he did not completely do that, but he did use it as a reason to stop talking about his relationship.
And I think the real reason was he's still trying to keep Amber on the line, whether just simply because he doesn't want her making trouble during the search and making trouble with his family, or because he wants to keep her away from police, you know, that's what jurors will have to decide. But it's clear he's trying to minimize his relationship with Laci. He won't talk about it.
GRACE: Richard, was there an incident at police headquarters?
COLE: Absolutely. During -- these conversations we've been listening to, the ones where she's grilling him and she's got Detective Bueller (ph) by her side, happened January 6, 7 and 8 of 2003. She was in the Modesto police headquarters for those three days, unbeknownst to Scott, of course, who thought she was home.
On January 8, she left Scott a message saying, I'm going to the police. It was designed to provoke him into something. Well, later that day, he showed up at the Modesto police station, driving around in circles around it, and the interpretation of the police was that he was looking for Amber. They got a little panicky, at that point. They thought maybe he would try to hurt her or do something to her. They told her at that point, Stop. Don't go back to your house, and we'll put you up someplace safe. And you better, you know, not have any direct contact with him.
GRACE: But Chuck Smith, isn't it possible that he was at the police station to see if he spotted her car, as opposed to wanting to harm her?
SMITH: Well, certainly. And you know, but in either event, it's suspicious. I mean, why is he talking to her on the phone if he suspects that she's working with the police? Why doesn't he simply say to her, Hey, Amber, you know, what's going on here? You're calling me all the time because you're working for the police. Are they taping this? I mean, Call it off.
There is nothing in this for him. I do not believe that Kirk McAllister or any other lawyer is guiding him through these tapes. He sounds terrible in these tapes. In that exchange that was just played, he sounds terrible, suggesting that he's not, you know, sleeping in the same bed with his wife. I don't know that there's an innocent explanation for that. I can't imagine it was done under the guiding hand of a lawyer. I just can't imagine that.
GRACE: Chris, do you think that he knew he was being taped? That's the big question. Was this all part of some big game, or was he truly that naive, Chris?
PIXLEY: Yes, I don't think that he -- that he knew he was being taped, certainly. I absolutely agree with Chuck. He was not getting advice from counsel to have these conversations. If he was, they'd be much better scripted. Obviously, Amber's questions to him were a lot more intelligent than his responses were. And the only good counsel that he could receive would be, If you're going to talk to her at all, if she does get ahold of you, is to tell her the truth. Tell her that you are married, that your wife is missing, that it's been a ruse, that you've lied to her and that you have to cut it off now.
There's no reason in the world to try to tell this elaborate story, one that I agree with being told very poorly through these taped phone conversations, and the idea that somehow it's going to be played at the time of trial and help your defense.
But I think there's another point here, too, as well. What's pivotal here -- you know, we went through one of these outtakes where we thought -- where Amber -- or Scott says to Amber, Obviously, you haven't been watching the news, and she says no. She's obviously lying as much as he is -- maybe not as much. She's certainly lying. And the jury knows it. And the question really is, knowing that she and the police are trying to set him up, will they hold it against Amber? Obviously, they're going to hold the lies against Scott. But will they hold it against Amber?
And I think they forgive her and be more likely to forgive her if he actually confessed, if he admitted to something. When you come up with a goose egg, it doesn't look good for her. And that's why I agree with Michael, I think that they need to turn the tapes off and move on to the next witness, the next piece of evidence.
GRACE: We are headed to break. But as we go to break, here's more sound released by Judge Delucchi. This is a conversation on January the 8th.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FREY: So that the last evening or day that you saw her, what happened in those events that day, or that morning or that night?
PETERSON: Well, we were going to meet at 4:00 o'clock to go over to her parents' house for dinner. I went fishing.
FREY: But what did she tell you she was doing that day? Because...
FREY: Because when I talk to you about my days, I usually tell you my days and what I'm going to do.
PETERSON: Right. Right.
FREY: And you're not even -- because you're not with me or you're not around, but that's just something you do when you're in a relationship with someone, right?
PETERSON: Yes. Definitely.
FREY: So what did she -- what was it she told you she had planned to do?
PETERSON: She was going to walk the dog.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PETERSON: Read that one to me again.
FREY: Oh, let's see. I'll start off, "I hate not knowing when I'm going to hear from you again. How can I, or we, deal with that? Not care? That certainly would hurt less. Working on loving you, Amber." So what part were you...
PETERSON: It's beautiful. Amber?
FREY: I'm here.
PETERSON: OK. Good. Thank you for reading that to me. Thank you for sharing it. I'm sorry that it upsets you to read it. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
FREY: You've been dishonest with me, Scott.
PETERSON: I know it.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: That is more sound just released by the judge. That is from January the 12th. Very quickly, Chuck Smith, what's your take?
SMITH: Well, you know, as I listen to all of us talk tonight, I think we have to withhold judgment a bit because, as we all know, cross-examination is the greatest vehicle to arrive at the truth and determine the truth. Mark Geragos hasn't asked a single question yet. We're all greatly anticipating that. Is it going to be long?
SMITH: Is it going to be short? It can be devastating, whether it's long or short, if done correctly. And we're all just so interested. So we really have to, you know, withhold judgment until he has his shot at her. It's not time to move on.
GRACE: OK. Chris Pixley, what do you think?
PIXLEY: Oh, I would agree with Chuck. I think that's also true of the larger case. Obviously, you know, it seems to be a bit of a draw right now. The best days have now come for the prosecution, and we're still arguing whether Scott Peterson will be convicted or acquitted. The defense has yet to put on its first piece of evidence.
And you know, ultimately, I do think it's important for the defense to realize the significance of Amber Frey's testimony, to realize that it has impact...
PIXLEY: ... Beyond this first phase. Ultimately, if Scott were convicted, this could be very damaging when it came time for sentencing...
PIXLEY: ... even ruin this because it suggests this is a guy who may not have any redeeming social value. He's talking to Amber Frey all about their relationship while his wife is missing, while others are looking for her.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Richard Cole, agree or disagree?
COLE: I agree it sounds damaging. But I also agree we need to wait for cross. Just remember, Amber was playing a little bit of a game, too. She was calling Scott and speaking to him without recording it, and the police have explained that partially by saying, Well, sometimes she was in her car. But apparently, she then, I won't say lied, but when police asked her if she had called him, she said no, she hadn't. So we're -- I'm not quite sure whether Amber was playing both sides against the middle at some point.
GRACE: Right. Right. So you're saying wait for cross exam. Very quickly, to Lisa Bloom, final thoughts?
BLOOM: You know, you can't cross-examine those audiotapes, and that's where Scott Peterson really gets burned. And to compare Amber's lies to Scott's lies is absurd! She doesn't have a missing and ultimately dead spouse. She's trying to help the police catch a murderer. He's the one that's caught on tape. And cross-examination is not going to hurt her.
GRACE: A big thank you to Ted Rowlands, Michael Cardoza, Chuck Smith, Chris Pixley, Lisa Bloom and Richard Cole. The case goes on.
I'm Nancy Grace from Court TV signing off for Larry King tonight. Again, thank you for inviting us into your homes. Stay tuned for "NEWSNIGHT."
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