Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
Standoff in Najaf; Prison Abuse Scandal; Olympics Update
Aired August 19, 2004 - 9:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news this hour out of Najaf. The standoff with Muqtada al-Sadr and his militia could be coming to an intense and violent end.
A surprising development in the Scott Peterson case. That case put on hold until Monday of next week.
And a massive blaze in the West. Thousands of acres are scorched, hundreds of homes possibly threatened.
All this hour on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: All right. Good morning, everyone. We have a busy Thursday here. Soledad is out resting. Heidi Collins working with us here.
Good morning to you.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
HEMMER: And listening to these reports out of Iraq about 30 minutes ago, that standoff in that city now of Najaf could be coming to a head. There's smoke billowing from the shrine where al-Sadr has holed himself up. Also said to be upwards of 2,000 fighters in and around that shrine. In a moment, back to Baghdad live, we'll get you an update as best we can at this point.
COLLINS: Also, the Army is getting set to release its report on the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. Already it is drawing criticism from some corners because of who it does not blame. In a moment, we'll talk to an attorney for one of the soldiers charged.
HEMMER: Also, the Scott Peterson case. Mentioned this. Amber Frey will have to wait until Monday to be cross-examined, maybe even later than that.
The jury was sent home yesterday. We'll explain why in a moment here as best we can figure out. Closed chambers for the judge yesterday with these attorneys. So, we'll talk about that in a moment.
COLLINS: Meanwhile, Jack's here now once again.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Murder trial out in Chicago, Cook County. It was all settled in three days, a murder that occurred over a counterfeit $50 bill. The jury took two hours to convict the guilty defendant. And a member of that jury was Oprah Winfrey.
The "Question of the Day" is, should celebrities serve on juries? The other "Question of the Day" is, why can't all trials be done in three days with two hours of jury deliberation? They ought to get an award out there for that. That's pretty good stuff.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: Let's get straight away to Baghdad right now and try to figure out what's happening in Najaf. There's been new fighting in Najaf outside the shrine where the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is believed to be holed up. John Vause is in Baghdad now trying to get updates for us now.
John, good afternoon there. What do you have?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And good morning to you, Bill.
By all accounts, some fierce fighting around the Imam Ali Mosque, a scene of the standoff now for more than two weeks with the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. We have CNN producer Kianne Sadeq on the line now from Najaf. She was inside that mosque just a short time ago.
Kianne, what can you tell us about the current state of the fighting there in Najaf?
KIANNE SADEQ, CNN PRODUCER: Well, John, I just came out of the mosque. When we went in there, it was actually very fearsome. We walked -- we drove in very carefully with a group of journalists in a -- in about a 10-car convoy.
Now, the entire street, about 100 meters -- 100 to 150 meters leading up to the Imam Ali Mosque is completely destroyed. All the shops, all -- I mean, it's completely destroyed.
Windows are shattered. The pillows -- pillars are broken. Stores are shut.
It is just a ghost land. There -- all there is now is a large group of Mehdi Army, which are -- occupy that area. And just -- just before you get there, there are American tanks.
So, we walked in, and once we walked into the mosque, we were cheered on, we were very well received by members of the Mehdi Army. We were very well received. They were cheering and chanting about everything they were doing. They were very proud to be in there, and didn't -- had absolutely no intentions of leaving.
There were some women in there. Of course, a very few, maybe five or six. But there were some women in there. In fact, there were some children in there.
We also saw medical help. They seemed to have -- there seemed to be some supplies for medical support in that mosque, and some people dressed in smocks that seemed to be doctors. I'm not sure if they were, but they seemed to be doctors there to care for the injured.
And we -- we -- we were in there. We were given an opportunity to walk inside. There's a large room where they sit all the (INAUDIBLE) for Muqtada al-Sadr. We did not see Muqtada al-Sadr. We do not know if he is in there or not, even though we were told that he is in fact not in there.
We were -- while you're in the mosque, you hear constant firing, RPG fire, mortar fire. I mean, I'm not exactly sure about this, but all different kinds of loud firing constantly going on. It does -- it does not stop. It does not stop. It does not stop. It keeps going on and on and on and on.
The mosque seems to be OK, just some minor damage to the two pillars in the mosque. Minor damage, but nothing serious to the mosque. Everything outside of the mosque seems to be totaled -- John.
VAUSE: Kianne, a couple of questions here. What can you tell us about the movement of U.S. forces, the position of snipers around the mosque, and the tanks, and the U.S. Marines currently deployed in Najaf?
SADEQ: Yes, John. As a matter of fact, we arrived here yesterday sometime around -- in the afternoon. And around 4:00 or 5:00 in the evening, we tried -- attempted to go to the mosque, and there was an extreme amount of sniper fire. Extreme amount of sniper fire seems to be coming from both sides, from the American side, as well as the Iraqi side. And it's a very dangerous area to go through, because it seems like these people are not seeing who's coming by.
We were told by some people in the neighborhood that in fact there was a dead body that had been in its position for about three days and they could not move it out of the way because they could not risk going into that street and to take that body away because of the amount of sniper fire. We heard many, many shots, John.
We tried to go there again this morning, and once again we were stopped by a large amount of sniper fire. And it's just too dangerous to either walk or go in vehicles, because you don't know where these bullets are flying.
We ended up going in there by the help of actually every side. We were helped by the governor's office, as well as by the U.S. military.
They surrounded the outskirts of the mosque with -- with their tanks. And you have to get by them. But once you're by them, you also have to get by the Mehdi Army before you can get into the mosque.
So, there's a surround -- there's a ring around the mosque of U.S. military. Just after you get past that, there's about 100 to 150 meters of Mehdi Army militia, and -- with -- just hiding, you know, around in the streets near -- leading to the mosque. And you have to be able to get by both.
We were lucky enough -- we were lucky enough to get by both -- both groups. And we were led into the mosque. And we were in fact helped by both sides to leave the mosque.
We were told that we must leave the mosque, even if we wanted to stay. They were going to assist us out of the mosque because they felt that it would be too dangerous for us to stay there any longer. So, they -- you know, they made us all leave, and we had all -- we all ended up leaving in a convoy together.
Our hotel is very near to that area. But it's not -- not where any of -- any of the fighting is going on. And we drove up here.
VAUSE: OK.
SADEQ: And everybody is safe.
VAUSE: And Kianne, whilst you were inside that mosque, you had a chance to speak with one of Muqtada al-Sadr's senior aides. He said that Muqtada al-Sadr, the cleric, is not inside the mosque. They did not tell you where he is. But did he give you a reason why Muqtada al-Sadr is refusing to negotiate on this ultimatum, this ultimatum that was delivered by the minister of state a few hours ago?
SADEQ: Well, in fact, John, what the -- what his aides told me, Ahmed Shavani (ph), what his aides told me, and as well as (INAUDIBLE) who were in there, they said that in fact he did want to -- they said that in fact Muqtada al-Sadr did want to negotiate with this delegation from the National Congress -- the National Congress, and the reason why he did not was because the attacks and the loud sounds of explosions outside the mosque were far too many.
He also said that today that they are not going to respond to this request by the government, by the minister of state who gave (ph) pressure over here. He said, "We will not respond to this because we are not negotiating with these people." He said, "We are negotiating with the National Council. So, if they want to negotiate with us, we want to negotiate with them."
But this minister of state does not have anything to do with the National Council. These (INAUDIBLE) people who we want to negotiate with -- John.
VAUSE: OK. CNN producer Kianne Sadeq, who was recently just inside the Imam Ali Mosque, the scene -- or the focus, rather, of what appears to be some very, very intense fighting in Najaf.
Bill, a couple of important points to recap there from what Kianne was saying. Firstly, spokespeople for Muqtada al-Sadr saying that the radical Shiite cleric is in fact not inside the mosque. Whether or not that is true, whether we can independently verify that in any way -- but they're certainly claiming that he is in nowhere inside the Imam Ali Mosque right now. And the reason why Muqtada al-Sadr has not listened or not heeded those ultimatums coming from the minister of state, according to Muqtada al-Sadr's spokesperson, he does not recognize the authority of the Iraqi interim government. And according to Kianne, who spoke with these aides to al-Sadr, al-Sadr was apparently willing to negotiate with that delegation which arrived in Najaf on Tuesday from the Iraqi National Conference.
That was a gathering of more than 1,000 delegates here in Baghdad over the last four days or so. The reason being that they were more representatives of the Iraqi people than the interim Iraqi government -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right. John, thanks. Good work, too, in Baghdad. John Vause reporting there.
And also to Kianne and her crew down in Najaf, stay safe over there as they continue to give us exclusive looks inside now, not just to that shrine, but also what's happening in the area just outside of it.
Analysis from Ken Pollack, Saban Center, Brookings Institution down in D.C., here in New York today.
And good morning, Ken. Listening to this, the strategy is pretty obvious from both sides. But what is Sadr's strategy ultimately? Does he want to pay for his life with this?
KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I don't think so. You know, we don't know a whole lot about this man.
He's a young guy. It's unclear exactly what he wants. But all the indications that we've gotten, both from people who seem to know him and what we've seen from him over the last 16 months, indicate this is not someone who wants to die a martyr.
This is someone who wants to be a powerbroker in Iraq. He's playing a game of brinksmanship. And part of the problem is he doesn't really know how to play it terribly well. But it doesn't seem that he actually wants to go down in a blaze of glory.
HEMMER: You say he's playing a dangerous game.
POLLACK: Well, the problem is, of course, that he is taking things right to the brink. He is trying to push us and then pull back at the last minute. The problem is, he doesn't really understand where our red lines are. And he doesn't know when the United States may suddenly decide, along with Ayad Allawi, the game is up, enough is enough.
HEMMER: As far as being a political partner -- and that has been talked about throughout the week, about coming to Baghdad and sitting in with the current government and figure out some sort of relationship -- is that done now? Does that (INAUDIBLE)? How do you respond or react after this? POLLACK: Honestly, Bill, it's the kind of thing where I think Americans would all say, all right, the guy has shown his colors, forget about it. In the Middle East, in Iraq, it's a completely different story. Don't ever count Muqtada al-Sadr out.
My guess is that if we do negotiate our way out of this situation, there are going to be members of the Iraqi National Conference who are going to want to bring him in. And he may send delegates. He may not himself play, but he may send personnel to participate.
HEMMER: What do you think about the U.S. military right now, based on your best gauge here, working on behalf of Iraqi national force, Ayad Allawi a very tough test of his own leadership? At this point, is this going the way they want it to go?
POLLACK: Obviously I'm sure they would like to have it done already. They would have liked to have had it concluded several weeks ago. But my sense is, getting little bits and pieces here and there, is that the commanders on the ground understand how difficult a problem this is. And in truth, they've come up with a much better strategy in Najaf than, say, that they originally used in Fallujah several months ago.
They're working on both the political and military tract simultaneously. They're trying to squeeze al-Sadr, convince him that he has no hope of actually surviving in the mosque, and his choice is either die there or give up.
It's a strategy which is very, very time-consuming. It's nerve- racking. It's frustrating. But believe it or not, it actually does seem to be working.
But of course, the proof will be in the pudding. It will be judged by whether or not he actually gets out without us having to root him out.
HEMMER: Do you consider Najaf to be just one item on a list of items in Iraq?
POLLACK: Yes.
HEMMER: Or do you believe this is truly an important event for getting peace to that country more quickly?
POLLACK: Unfortunately, it's a little of both. But it's more the former than the latter.
There are whole number of different things that need to happen inside of Iraq. But dealing with the Mehdi Army is a very important one.
Najaf is a critical city. The Shrine of Imam Ali is one of the two holiest sites in Shia Islam. Having the Mehdi Army in there is a big problem for us and for the new Iraqi government. They've got to be gotten out. But once they're gone, we shouldn't assume that suddenly everything's going to be easy in Iraq. There is a long list, as you suggested, of other issues that need to be dealt with.
HEMMER: Thanks, Ken, Saban Center here in New York today. Nice to see you.
POLLACK: Thank you.
HEMMER: All right -- Heidi.
COLLINS: About 15 minutes past the hour now. Time for a look at some of today's other news with Carol Costello.
Carol, good morning.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Heidi. Thank you.
Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson will be on Capitol Hill today. Hutchinson will testify before the Judiciary Committee in another hearing on the 9/11 report. The Senate panel is focusing on federal law enforcement and border security. The House International Relations Committee is also expected to meet in just about an hour from now.
The United Nations is remembering 22 of its colleagues killed one years ago today in a suicide bombing in Iraq. A memorial is now under way at the U.N. headquarters in New York. The deputy secretary- general is in attendance. Simultaneous ceremonies are being held in Geneva and Jordan.
A massive wind-driven fire is forcing hundreds of residents to flee their homes near Dryden in central Washington State. Nearly 13,000 acres have now been consumed. More than 1,500 firefighters are battling the blaze, which has been burning now for more than a week. No injuries reported.
And we told you yesterday about a 56-year-old package that contained the burial flag of a fallen World War II veteran. Well, the man's 82-year-old sister now has the flag. A Michigan postmaster tracked down the woman after the package mysteriously arrived from Belgium last week. She plans to display her brother's flag outside of her home in Alabama.
So, it was a nice, happy ending. Finally.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good one. All right. Carol, thanks a lot.
Going to check on the weather now. Chad Myers standing by with the very latest forecast.
(WEATHER REPORT)
COLLINS: All right. Chad, thanks so much for that.
HEMMER: We'll get a break here in a moment. The surprise delay in the Scott Peterson trial, what's holding up that case. We'll have a look at that in a moment here. COLLINS: And back live to Athens Olympics. Guess what the big story was last night? A man by the name of Paul Hamm. Twelfth place, then fourth place, then the gold medal.
HEMMER: What a night. You're right.
COLLINS: We've got it all coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: The number of people caught in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal may expand from seven to about two dozen, we're told. An Army report due out next week is expected to recommend disciplinary and in some cases criminal action against a number of people, including some commanders at the prison. But no one higher than that.
Javal Davis is one of the original soldiers charged. His attorney, Paul Bergrin, is my guest now here in New York.
And good morning to you.
PAUL BERGRIN, LAWYER FOR SGT. JAVAL DAVIS: Good morning. Thank you for having me.
HEMMER: Thank you for being here. The Army's conclusion the abuse was the work of out of control soldiers at the local level, not the higher-up level. Your reaction to that is what?
BERGRIN: You know, that's in a report that we really anticipated. Since the Fay investigation, we knew that they would whitewash the actual superior commissioned officers that were involved in the scandal, as well as the politicians in Washington, D.C. But we know, based upon our proofs and our investigations, that the highest level of the government approved the interrogation techniques that were used at Abu Ghraib. And we're ready to prove that.
HEMMER: Where is your proof and your evidence?
BERGRIN: Well, if you look at the chronology and the charts, we know that back in August of 2003, there was a meeting held between Donald Rumsfeld, Stephen Cambone, the undersecretary of intelligence and defense, as well as Major General Miller, who was in charge of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
At that time, Major General Miller was told that he has to "Gitmotize," take the interrogation techniques from Guantanamo Bay and bring them to Iraq, specifically Abu Ghraib, for intelligence acquisition.
We knew at that particular time that Major General Miller at that time traveled from Cuba to Iraq to speak to the commanders there in about September of 2003. During that meeting, Cambone also traveled to Iraq, Lieutenant General Sanchez visited the Abu Ghraib prison, and a host of other politicians, as well as high-level commanders. And at that time, about a month later, is when the photographs were taken and the intelligence acquisitions occurred. HEMMER: Now, your client specifically has talked about stepping on the hands and toes of prisoners. Why has he said that's necessary?
BERGRIN: Well, it was necessary to control the prisoners, to let the prisoners know that they can't react against the American people.
HEMMER: And who -- who told him to do that?
BERGRIN: He was specifically ordered by his commanders, Sergeant First Class Schneider, Staff Sergeant Fredericks (ph), who was involved in this case, as well as other intelligence individuals. He was told that these are the only ways to control the prisoner, these are the only ways to acquire intelligence information from them. And certain methods and technologies must be used in order to obtain that information.
HEMMER: And you're going up the chain slowly here. Who told them to do that then? The names are what?
BERGRIN: They were ordered by Colonel Pappas (ph), who now is asserting his Article 31 rights, refusing to be -- refusing to be interviewed or testify; Lieutenant Colonel Stephen Jordan (ph), who has invoked his Article 31 rights; the commanders of the military intelligence battalion and brigade that were in charge of intelligence at the prison. And it works its way up the chain of command from there.
HEMMER: In a military court you can prove all that?
BERGRIN: In a military court we're ready, willing and able to prove that.
HEMMER: When will you see your client next?
BERGRIN: I'll see him tonight. I'm flying to Mannheim, Germany, with the motions. And the legal issues and the motions are going to be resolved within the next couple of days.
HEMMER: Paul Bergrin is the lawyer for Javal Davis. And we will follow this closely.
BERGRIN: Thank you.
HEMMER: Thanks for your time.
BERGRIN: Thank you.
HEMMER: Sure -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Still to come, when picking a jury, should celebrities be passed over? That's ahead.
Plus, the U.S. men's hoops team has just wrapped up its third game of the Olympics. Find out whether it's another nightmare.
And try your hand at our Olympics challenge now. There you see it. The 1908 games in London saw the induction of what Olympic tradition? The answer and an update on today's U.S. basketball game after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: OK, you've had a moment to think about it now. The 1908 games in London saw the induction of what Olympic tradition?
The answer? The opening ceremonies. The 1908 games in London was the first where athletes walked into an Olympic stadium behind their national flags. Beautiful.
HEMMER: And today's the most expensive ticket you can find.
COLLINS: Yes?
HEMMER: Costly.
COLLINS: I bet it is.
United States is ahead in the medal comp, though, at the Olympics, as day six of the competition already under way. Mark McKay joining us now with an update from Athens.
Mark, U.S. men's basketball team seems to be the story today?
MARK MCKAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it certainly is. They certainly are, Heidi. And I can bet that many people wouldn't blame Larry Brown, the coach of this team, if they lost today, that he might as well just go ahead and vacation in the Greek Isles. I mean, that has been (INAUDIBLE) for team USA.
They struggled again against Australia from outside. They're outside, shooting a bit atrocious. But it didn't prevent them from winning. Team USA winning within the past half hour, 89-79. Tim Duncan leading the way in the point total with 18. Shawn Marion and Allen Iverson adding 16 points a piece.
The U.S. women's softball squad, they just keep rolling. They're not losing. In fact, they've won 76 straights. They beat the host nation, Greece, 7-0.
Now, in the pool, let's talk about Michael Phelps. He looks unbeatable for gold tonight here in Athens in the 200-meter individual medley. Phelps, the teenager from Baltimore, already a five-time medalist here at the games. He has recorded the seven fastest times in history over this distance.
Heidi, I know that in gymnastics Paul Hamm had you up late last night. I think he had all...
COLLINS: Barely.
MCKAY: ... of North America up late. Yes, the 21-year-old from Wisconsin basically dazzled on the map. A fall on his vaults landing sent him stumbling into the judge's table. But then Hamm is able to come back on the high bar and win gold.
For 52 years, gymnasts from Asia and the former Soviet Union have dominated this event. Heidi, I will go there. Paul can Hamm it up if he wants to.
COLLINS: Ha, we've been waiting for you to say that, Mark. All right. It was a great one last night, that's for sure. Appreciate it very much. Mark McKay coming to us from Athens.
HEMMER: Paul Hamm, wonderful. Jack Cafferty, "Question of the Day."
Good morning.
CAFFERTY: Oprah Winfrey on a jury out in Chicago at a murder trial. It just took them two hours to convict the defendant. But she was a big distraction coming in and out of the courthouse. And we thought we'd ask your thoughts this morning on whether celebrities ought to be members of juries.
Dennis in West Windsor, New Jersey, writes: "The potential for Oprah having an undue influence in the deliberations is obvious. The judge should have thanked her for showing up and then told her to go."
Paul in Rhinebeck, New York: "Absolutely not. In general, movie and TV personalities only see fit to do their civic duties when it enhances their fame. Objectivity is impossible when they're worried about their public persona."
David in McHenry, Illinois, writes: "Personally, I don't think most celebrities are intelligent enough to serve on juries."
Might have something there, David.
And Barry in Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, says: "Celebrities should be subjected to the same rules as the rest of us. However, there are some who would be nothing but a distraction to the trial. Can you imagine Michael Jackson in a jury box?"
Barry, he's going to be at the defendant's table, I think, pretty soon in a trial situation.
HEMMER: Oprah's going to make a show out of this, right? She's going to do an hour with the members of the jury around there.
CAFFERTY: Swell.
HEMMER: We can learn an awful lot about what happened there.
CAFFERTY: By watching Oprah Winfrey?
COLLINS: Sure.
CAFFERTY: I'll make a note of that. I got the Olympics and Oprah now are the things that I have -- on my must-see list of things to watch. HEMMER: Well, you just come to us and we'll fill you in.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 19, 2004 - 9:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news this hour out of Najaf. The standoff with Muqtada al-Sadr and his militia could be coming to an intense and violent end.
A surprising development in the Scott Peterson case. That case put on hold until Monday of next week.
And a massive blaze in the West. Thousands of acres are scorched, hundreds of homes possibly threatened.
All this hour on AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: All right. Good morning, everyone. We have a busy Thursday here. Soledad is out resting. Heidi Collins working with us here.
Good morning to you.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
HEMMER: And listening to these reports out of Iraq about 30 minutes ago, that standoff in that city now of Najaf could be coming to a head. There's smoke billowing from the shrine where al-Sadr has holed himself up. Also said to be upwards of 2,000 fighters in and around that shrine. In a moment, back to Baghdad live, we'll get you an update as best we can at this point.
COLLINS: Also, the Army is getting set to release its report on the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. Already it is drawing criticism from some corners because of who it does not blame. In a moment, we'll talk to an attorney for one of the soldiers charged.
HEMMER: Also, the Scott Peterson case. Mentioned this. Amber Frey will have to wait until Monday to be cross-examined, maybe even later than that.
The jury was sent home yesterday. We'll explain why in a moment here as best we can figure out. Closed chambers for the judge yesterday with these attorneys. So, we'll talk about that in a moment.
COLLINS: Meanwhile, Jack's here now once again.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Murder trial out in Chicago, Cook County. It was all settled in three days, a murder that occurred over a counterfeit $50 bill. The jury took two hours to convict the guilty defendant. And a member of that jury was Oprah Winfrey.
The "Question of the Day" is, should celebrities serve on juries? The other "Question of the Day" is, why can't all trials be done in three days with two hours of jury deliberation? They ought to get an award out there for that. That's pretty good stuff.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
CAFFERTY: Yes.
HEMMER: Let's get straight away to Baghdad right now and try to figure out what's happening in Najaf. There's been new fighting in Najaf outside the shrine where the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr is believed to be holed up. John Vause is in Baghdad now trying to get updates for us now.
John, good afternoon there. What do you have?
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And good morning to you, Bill.
By all accounts, some fierce fighting around the Imam Ali Mosque, a scene of the standoff now for more than two weeks with the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. We have CNN producer Kianne Sadeq on the line now from Najaf. She was inside that mosque just a short time ago.
Kianne, what can you tell us about the current state of the fighting there in Najaf?
KIANNE SADEQ, CNN PRODUCER: Well, John, I just came out of the mosque. When we went in there, it was actually very fearsome. We walked -- we drove in very carefully with a group of journalists in a -- in about a 10-car convoy.
Now, the entire street, about 100 meters -- 100 to 150 meters leading up to the Imam Ali Mosque is completely destroyed. All the shops, all -- I mean, it's completely destroyed.
Windows are shattered. The pillows -- pillars are broken. Stores are shut.
It is just a ghost land. There -- all there is now is a large group of Mehdi Army, which are -- occupy that area. And just -- just before you get there, there are American tanks.
So, we walked in, and once we walked into the mosque, we were cheered on, we were very well received by members of the Mehdi Army. We were very well received. They were cheering and chanting about everything they were doing. They were very proud to be in there, and didn't -- had absolutely no intentions of leaving.
There were some women in there. Of course, a very few, maybe five or six. But there were some women in there. In fact, there were some children in there.
We also saw medical help. They seemed to have -- there seemed to be some supplies for medical support in that mosque, and some people dressed in smocks that seemed to be doctors. I'm not sure if they were, but they seemed to be doctors there to care for the injured.
And we -- we -- we were in there. We were given an opportunity to walk inside. There's a large room where they sit all the (INAUDIBLE) for Muqtada al-Sadr. We did not see Muqtada al-Sadr. We do not know if he is in there or not, even though we were told that he is in fact not in there.
We were -- while you're in the mosque, you hear constant firing, RPG fire, mortar fire. I mean, I'm not exactly sure about this, but all different kinds of loud firing constantly going on. It does -- it does not stop. It does not stop. It does not stop. It keeps going on and on and on and on.
The mosque seems to be OK, just some minor damage to the two pillars in the mosque. Minor damage, but nothing serious to the mosque. Everything outside of the mosque seems to be totaled -- John.
VAUSE: Kianne, a couple of questions here. What can you tell us about the movement of U.S. forces, the position of snipers around the mosque, and the tanks, and the U.S. Marines currently deployed in Najaf?
SADEQ: Yes, John. As a matter of fact, we arrived here yesterday sometime around -- in the afternoon. And around 4:00 or 5:00 in the evening, we tried -- attempted to go to the mosque, and there was an extreme amount of sniper fire. Extreme amount of sniper fire seems to be coming from both sides, from the American side, as well as the Iraqi side. And it's a very dangerous area to go through, because it seems like these people are not seeing who's coming by.
We were told by some people in the neighborhood that in fact there was a dead body that had been in its position for about three days and they could not move it out of the way because they could not risk going into that street and to take that body away because of the amount of sniper fire. We heard many, many shots, John.
We tried to go there again this morning, and once again we were stopped by a large amount of sniper fire. And it's just too dangerous to either walk or go in vehicles, because you don't know where these bullets are flying.
We ended up going in there by the help of actually every side. We were helped by the governor's office, as well as by the U.S. military.
They surrounded the outskirts of the mosque with -- with their tanks. And you have to get by them. But once you're by them, you also have to get by the Mehdi Army before you can get into the mosque.
So, there's a surround -- there's a ring around the mosque of U.S. military. Just after you get past that, there's about 100 to 150 meters of Mehdi Army militia, and -- with -- just hiding, you know, around in the streets near -- leading to the mosque. And you have to be able to get by both.
We were lucky enough -- we were lucky enough to get by both -- both groups. And we were led into the mosque. And we were in fact helped by both sides to leave the mosque.
We were told that we must leave the mosque, even if we wanted to stay. They were going to assist us out of the mosque because they felt that it would be too dangerous for us to stay there any longer. So, they -- you know, they made us all leave, and we had all -- we all ended up leaving in a convoy together.
Our hotel is very near to that area. But it's not -- not where any of -- any of the fighting is going on. And we drove up here.
VAUSE: OK.
SADEQ: And everybody is safe.
VAUSE: And Kianne, whilst you were inside that mosque, you had a chance to speak with one of Muqtada al-Sadr's senior aides. He said that Muqtada al-Sadr, the cleric, is not inside the mosque. They did not tell you where he is. But did he give you a reason why Muqtada al-Sadr is refusing to negotiate on this ultimatum, this ultimatum that was delivered by the minister of state a few hours ago?
SADEQ: Well, in fact, John, what the -- what his aides told me, Ahmed Shavani (ph), what his aides told me, and as well as (INAUDIBLE) who were in there, they said that in fact he did want to -- they said that in fact Muqtada al-Sadr did want to negotiate with this delegation from the National Congress -- the National Congress, and the reason why he did not was because the attacks and the loud sounds of explosions outside the mosque were far too many.
He also said that today that they are not going to respond to this request by the government, by the minister of state who gave (ph) pressure over here. He said, "We will not respond to this because we are not negotiating with these people." He said, "We are negotiating with the National Council. So, if they want to negotiate with us, we want to negotiate with them."
But this minister of state does not have anything to do with the National Council. These (INAUDIBLE) people who we want to negotiate with -- John.
VAUSE: OK. CNN producer Kianne Sadeq, who was recently just inside the Imam Ali Mosque, the scene -- or the focus, rather, of what appears to be some very, very intense fighting in Najaf.
Bill, a couple of important points to recap there from what Kianne was saying. Firstly, spokespeople for Muqtada al-Sadr saying that the radical Shiite cleric is in fact not inside the mosque. Whether or not that is true, whether we can independently verify that in any way -- but they're certainly claiming that he is in nowhere inside the Imam Ali Mosque right now. And the reason why Muqtada al-Sadr has not listened or not heeded those ultimatums coming from the minister of state, according to Muqtada al-Sadr's spokesperson, he does not recognize the authority of the Iraqi interim government. And according to Kianne, who spoke with these aides to al-Sadr, al-Sadr was apparently willing to negotiate with that delegation which arrived in Najaf on Tuesday from the Iraqi National Conference.
That was a gathering of more than 1,000 delegates here in Baghdad over the last four days or so. The reason being that they were more representatives of the Iraqi people than the interim Iraqi government -- Bill.
HEMMER: All right. John, thanks. Good work, too, in Baghdad. John Vause reporting there.
And also to Kianne and her crew down in Najaf, stay safe over there as they continue to give us exclusive looks inside now, not just to that shrine, but also what's happening in the area just outside of it.
Analysis from Ken Pollack, Saban Center, Brookings Institution down in D.C., here in New York today.
And good morning, Ken. Listening to this, the strategy is pretty obvious from both sides. But what is Sadr's strategy ultimately? Does he want to pay for his life with this?
KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I don't think so. You know, we don't know a whole lot about this man.
He's a young guy. It's unclear exactly what he wants. But all the indications that we've gotten, both from people who seem to know him and what we've seen from him over the last 16 months, indicate this is not someone who wants to die a martyr.
This is someone who wants to be a powerbroker in Iraq. He's playing a game of brinksmanship. And part of the problem is he doesn't really know how to play it terribly well. But it doesn't seem that he actually wants to go down in a blaze of glory.
HEMMER: You say he's playing a dangerous game.
POLLACK: Well, the problem is, of course, that he is taking things right to the brink. He is trying to push us and then pull back at the last minute. The problem is, he doesn't really understand where our red lines are. And he doesn't know when the United States may suddenly decide, along with Ayad Allawi, the game is up, enough is enough.
HEMMER: As far as being a political partner -- and that has been talked about throughout the week, about coming to Baghdad and sitting in with the current government and figure out some sort of relationship -- is that done now? Does that (INAUDIBLE)? How do you respond or react after this? POLLACK: Honestly, Bill, it's the kind of thing where I think Americans would all say, all right, the guy has shown his colors, forget about it. In the Middle East, in Iraq, it's a completely different story. Don't ever count Muqtada al-Sadr out.
My guess is that if we do negotiate our way out of this situation, there are going to be members of the Iraqi National Conference who are going to want to bring him in. And he may send delegates. He may not himself play, but he may send personnel to participate.
HEMMER: What do you think about the U.S. military right now, based on your best gauge here, working on behalf of Iraqi national force, Ayad Allawi a very tough test of his own leadership? At this point, is this going the way they want it to go?
POLLACK: Obviously I'm sure they would like to have it done already. They would have liked to have had it concluded several weeks ago. But my sense is, getting little bits and pieces here and there, is that the commanders on the ground understand how difficult a problem this is. And in truth, they've come up with a much better strategy in Najaf than, say, that they originally used in Fallujah several months ago.
They're working on both the political and military tract simultaneously. They're trying to squeeze al-Sadr, convince him that he has no hope of actually surviving in the mosque, and his choice is either die there or give up.
It's a strategy which is very, very time-consuming. It's nerve- racking. It's frustrating. But believe it or not, it actually does seem to be working.
But of course, the proof will be in the pudding. It will be judged by whether or not he actually gets out without us having to root him out.
HEMMER: Do you consider Najaf to be just one item on a list of items in Iraq?
POLLACK: Yes.
HEMMER: Or do you believe this is truly an important event for getting peace to that country more quickly?
POLLACK: Unfortunately, it's a little of both. But it's more the former than the latter.
There are whole number of different things that need to happen inside of Iraq. But dealing with the Mehdi Army is a very important one.
Najaf is a critical city. The Shrine of Imam Ali is one of the two holiest sites in Shia Islam. Having the Mehdi Army in there is a big problem for us and for the new Iraqi government. They've got to be gotten out. But once they're gone, we shouldn't assume that suddenly everything's going to be easy in Iraq. There is a long list, as you suggested, of other issues that need to be dealt with.
HEMMER: Thanks, Ken, Saban Center here in New York today. Nice to see you.
POLLACK: Thank you.
HEMMER: All right -- Heidi.
COLLINS: About 15 minutes past the hour now. Time for a look at some of today's other news with Carol Costello.
Carol, good morning.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Heidi. Thank you.
Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson will be on Capitol Hill today. Hutchinson will testify before the Judiciary Committee in another hearing on the 9/11 report. The Senate panel is focusing on federal law enforcement and border security. The House International Relations Committee is also expected to meet in just about an hour from now.
The United Nations is remembering 22 of its colleagues killed one years ago today in a suicide bombing in Iraq. A memorial is now under way at the U.N. headquarters in New York. The deputy secretary- general is in attendance. Simultaneous ceremonies are being held in Geneva and Jordan.
A massive wind-driven fire is forcing hundreds of residents to flee their homes near Dryden in central Washington State. Nearly 13,000 acres have now been consumed. More than 1,500 firefighters are battling the blaze, which has been burning now for more than a week. No injuries reported.
And we told you yesterday about a 56-year-old package that contained the burial flag of a fallen World War II veteran. Well, the man's 82-year-old sister now has the flag. A Michigan postmaster tracked down the woman after the package mysteriously arrived from Belgium last week. She plans to display her brother's flag outside of her home in Alabama.
So, it was a nice, happy ending. Finally.
COLLINS: Yes, that's a good one. All right. Carol, thanks a lot.
Going to check on the weather now. Chad Myers standing by with the very latest forecast.
(WEATHER REPORT)
COLLINS: All right. Chad, thanks so much for that.
HEMMER: We'll get a break here in a moment. The surprise delay in the Scott Peterson trial, what's holding up that case. We'll have a look at that in a moment here. COLLINS: And back live to Athens Olympics. Guess what the big story was last night? A man by the name of Paul Hamm. Twelfth place, then fourth place, then the gold medal.
HEMMER: What a night. You're right.
COLLINS: We've got it all coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: The number of people caught in the Abu Ghraib prison scandal may expand from seven to about two dozen, we're told. An Army report due out next week is expected to recommend disciplinary and in some cases criminal action against a number of people, including some commanders at the prison. But no one higher than that.
Javal Davis is one of the original soldiers charged. His attorney, Paul Bergrin, is my guest now here in New York.
And good morning to you.
PAUL BERGRIN, LAWYER FOR SGT. JAVAL DAVIS: Good morning. Thank you for having me.
HEMMER: Thank you for being here. The Army's conclusion the abuse was the work of out of control soldiers at the local level, not the higher-up level. Your reaction to that is what?
BERGRIN: You know, that's in a report that we really anticipated. Since the Fay investigation, we knew that they would whitewash the actual superior commissioned officers that were involved in the scandal, as well as the politicians in Washington, D.C. But we know, based upon our proofs and our investigations, that the highest level of the government approved the interrogation techniques that were used at Abu Ghraib. And we're ready to prove that.
HEMMER: Where is your proof and your evidence?
BERGRIN: Well, if you look at the chronology and the charts, we know that back in August of 2003, there was a meeting held between Donald Rumsfeld, Stephen Cambone, the undersecretary of intelligence and defense, as well as Major General Miller, who was in charge of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
At that time, Major General Miller was told that he has to "Gitmotize," take the interrogation techniques from Guantanamo Bay and bring them to Iraq, specifically Abu Ghraib, for intelligence acquisition.
We knew at that particular time that Major General Miller at that time traveled from Cuba to Iraq to speak to the commanders there in about September of 2003. During that meeting, Cambone also traveled to Iraq, Lieutenant General Sanchez visited the Abu Ghraib prison, and a host of other politicians, as well as high-level commanders. And at that time, about a month later, is when the photographs were taken and the intelligence acquisitions occurred. HEMMER: Now, your client specifically has talked about stepping on the hands and toes of prisoners. Why has he said that's necessary?
BERGRIN: Well, it was necessary to control the prisoners, to let the prisoners know that they can't react against the American people.
HEMMER: And who -- who told him to do that?
BERGRIN: He was specifically ordered by his commanders, Sergeant First Class Schneider, Staff Sergeant Fredericks (ph), who was involved in this case, as well as other intelligence individuals. He was told that these are the only ways to control the prisoner, these are the only ways to acquire intelligence information from them. And certain methods and technologies must be used in order to obtain that information.
HEMMER: And you're going up the chain slowly here. Who told them to do that then? The names are what?
BERGRIN: They were ordered by Colonel Pappas (ph), who now is asserting his Article 31 rights, refusing to be -- refusing to be interviewed or testify; Lieutenant Colonel Stephen Jordan (ph), who has invoked his Article 31 rights; the commanders of the military intelligence battalion and brigade that were in charge of intelligence at the prison. And it works its way up the chain of command from there.
HEMMER: In a military court you can prove all that?
BERGRIN: In a military court we're ready, willing and able to prove that.
HEMMER: When will you see your client next?
BERGRIN: I'll see him tonight. I'm flying to Mannheim, Germany, with the motions. And the legal issues and the motions are going to be resolved within the next couple of days.
HEMMER: Paul Bergrin is the lawyer for Javal Davis. And we will follow this closely.
BERGRIN: Thank you.
HEMMER: Thanks for your time.
BERGRIN: Thank you.
HEMMER: Sure -- Heidi.
COLLINS: Still to come, when picking a jury, should celebrities be passed over? That's ahead.
Plus, the U.S. men's hoops team has just wrapped up its third game of the Olympics. Find out whether it's another nightmare.
And try your hand at our Olympics challenge now. There you see it. The 1908 games in London saw the induction of what Olympic tradition? The answer and an update on today's U.S. basketball game after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: OK, you've had a moment to think about it now. The 1908 games in London saw the induction of what Olympic tradition?
The answer? The opening ceremonies. The 1908 games in London was the first where athletes walked into an Olympic stadium behind their national flags. Beautiful.
HEMMER: And today's the most expensive ticket you can find.
COLLINS: Yes?
HEMMER: Costly.
COLLINS: I bet it is.
United States is ahead in the medal comp, though, at the Olympics, as day six of the competition already under way. Mark McKay joining us now with an update from Athens.
Mark, U.S. men's basketball team seems to be the story today?
MARK MCKAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it certainly is. They certainly are, Heidi. And I can bet that many people wouldn't blame Larry Brown, the coach of this team, if they lost today, that he might as well just go ahead and vacation in the Greek Isles. I mean, that has been (INAUDIBLE) for team USA.
They struggled again against Australia from outside. They're outside, shooting a bit atrocious. But it didn't prevent them from winning. Team USA winning within the past half hour, 89-79. Tim Duncan leading the way in the point total with 18. Shawn Marion and Allen Iverson adding 16 points a piece.
The U.S. women's softball squad, they just keep rolling. They're not losing. In fact, they've won 76 straights. They beat the host nation, Greece, 7-0.
Now, in the pool, let's talk about Michael Phelps. He looks unbeatable for gold tonight here in Athens in the 200-meter individual medley. Phelps, the teenager from Baltimore, already a five-time medalist here at the games. He has recorded the seven fastest times in history over this distance.
Heidi, I know that in gymnastics Paul Hamm had you up late last night. I think he had all...
COLLINS: Barely.
MCKAY: ... of North America up late. Yes, the 21-year-old from Wisconsin basically dazzled on the map. A fall on his vaults landing sent him stumbling into the judge's table. But then Hamm is able to come back on the high bar and win gold.
For 52 years, gymnasts from Asia and the former Soviet Union have dominated this event. Heidi, I will go there. Paul can Hamm it up if he wants to.
COLLINS: Ha, we've been waiting for you to say that, Mark. All right. It was a great one last night, that's for sure. Appreciate it very much. Mark McKay coming to us from Athens.
HEMMER: Paul Hamm, wonderful. Jack Cafferty, "Question of the Day."
Good morning.
CAFFERTY: Oprah Winfrey on a jury out in Chicago at a murder trial. It just took them two hours to convict the defendant. But she was a big distraction coming in and out of the courthouse. And we thought we'd ask your thoughts this morning on whether celebrities ought to be members of juries.
Dennis in West Windsor, New Jersey, writes: "The potential for Oprah having an undue influence in the deliberations is obvious. The judge should have thanked her for showing up and then told her to go."
Paul in Rhinebeck, New York: "Absolutely not. In general, movie and TV personalities only see fit to do their civic duties when it enhances their fame. Objectivity is impossible when they're worried about their public persona."
David in McHenry, Illinois, writes: "Personally, I don't think most celebrities are intelligent enough to serve on juries."
Might have something there, David.
And Barry in Waynesboro, Pennsylvania, says: "Celebrities should be subjected to the same rules as the rest of us. However, there are some who would be nothing but a distraction to the trial. Can you imagine Michael Jackson in a jury box?"
Barry, he's going to be at the defendant's table, I think, pretty soon in a trial situation.
HEMMER: Oprah's going to make a show out of this, right? She's going to do an hour with the members of the jury around there.
CAFFERTY: Swell.
HEMMER: We can learn an awful lot about what happened there.
CAFFERTY: By watching Oprah Winfrey?
COLLINS: Sure.
CAFFERTY: I'll make a note of that. I got the Olympics and Oprah now are the things that I have -- on my must-see list of things to watch. HEMMER: Well, you just come to us and we'll fill you in.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
