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Al-Sadr Standoff; Bush Prepping for Convention; Interview With Congressman Christopher Shays

Aired August 19, 2004 - 11:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AYAD ALLAWI, INTERIM IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): As we confront their constant delay and inclination to do evil, we will categorically not allow armed militias. This is the final call to them to disarm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Strong words from Ayad Allawi, the acting prime minister of Iraq, just one day after the apparent agreement designed to bring peace to Najaf. Iraqi officials are right now vowing once again to storm Shiite fighters in the city's main mosque. With battles raging around the mosque, the rebel leader, Muqtada al -Sadr is believed to be inside. And he's quoted now as saying he will accept only victory or martyrdom.

We have a reporter on the scene for us in Najaf. He's CNN's Matthew Chance. Has been there now for several days. He's joining us now live with all the unfolding developments -- Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, thank you.

And fierce fighting is indeed raging around the sacred mosque of Imam Ali in the center of the holy city of Najaf. A big offensive against the Mehdi Army led of course by Muqtada al-Sadr the radical Shia cleric, many of whom are holed up inside that Imam Ali mosque, where the fighting is taking place.

One of our CNN producers has actually got inside to the mosque compound and is reporting to us that there are women and children inside the mosque as well, alongside those Imam Ali -- rather those Mehdi Army fighter fighters. That could complicate any effort to storm it. We're also having reports from that producer inside the mosque that two of its minarets have been damaged, despite the efforts of the U.S. Military to keep the building itself away from any of the fighting that has been raging there for several weeks.

Now, the Iraqi interim government has been calling on Muqtada al- Sadr to surrender his position, to get out of the mosque, to disband his militia and to join the political process. But on the ground that simply has not happened. So the focus is now falling on the military options open to them -- Wolf

BLITZER: Matthew, does it -- do you get a sense that if there is a storming of this mosque, and it comes down to that in the end, that Iraqi forces themselves -- and you did an excellent report on some elite Iraqi troops being trained right now -- that they will take the lead, backed up by U.S. military personnel? In other word, for political reasons, religious reasons, the Iraqis will go in, not the Americans. Is that right?

CHANCE: Exactly. The U.S. military feel -- and their very sensitive to this -- that if their troops set foot inside that sacred mosque, which is one of the most holy sites in Shia Islam, then that could provoke a ferocious backlash amongst this country's majority Shia population. The Iraqi government feels that, too.

So what they've said will happen, in the event of any storming of any holy shrine, not just the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf, then that storming will be done by Iraqi forces, only with the backing of U.S. force, perhaps just in terms of air power, just in terms of the security cordon around where the operations are taking place. The hope is, of course, that that will be less offensive to the majority Shia in this country.

BLITZER: Matthew, one final question. What do we know, if anything reliable, about whether or not that mosque has already been laced with explosives, ready to go off if there is a confrontation?

CHANCE: Well, that's interesting, because certainly there's been a lot of intelligence reports coming out. The Iraqi interim government have been talking about they have special intelligence, that groups within -- a foreign group of 25 fighters, they said, have made plans to lay detonations, explosions around the mosque, to -- to blow it up in the event of any actual military action against it.

But, at the same time, I've also spoken to U.S. military officials here, who, of course, have their own independent sort of intelligence on the layout of the mosque. They're saying that they've actually seen no evidence of that. Although they're not ruling it out it could be the case, but no one's actually seen it from the U.S. point of view.

BLITZER: CNN's Matthew Chance is on the scene for us, has been over for the past several days in Najaf, doing an outstanding job of reporting. Matthew, thank you very much for that report.

And as Matthew noted, CNN producer Kianne Sadeq were among a group of journalists who were allowed today to actually enter the mosque at the invitation of the so-called fighters inside. Here's a description of what she saw.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIANNE SADEQ, CNN PRODUCER: We just came out of the mosque. When we went in there, it was actually very fearsome. We walked -- we drove in very carefully with a group of journalists in a -- in about a 10-car convoy.

Now, the entire street, about 100 meters -- 100 to 150 meters leading up to the Imam Ali Mosque is completely destroyed. All the shops, all -- I mean, it's completely destroyed. Windows are shattered. The pillows -- pillars are broken. Stores are shut.

It is just a ghost land. There -- all there is now is a large group of Mehdi Army, which are -- occupy that area. And just -- just before you get there, there are American tanks.

So we walked in, and once we walked into the mosque, we were cheered on, we were very well received by members of the Mehdi Army. We were very well received. They were cheering and chanting about everything they were doing. They were very proud to be in there, and didn't -- had absolutely no intentions of leaving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: That description from the scene, inside the Imam Ali mosque in Najaf from our CNN producer, Kianne Sadeq.

So who exactly is Muqtada al-Sadr? The Shiite cleric has obtained his position at a fairly young age. He's believed to be just about 30 years old, possibly younger. And his rapid rise owes much to fact that his father was a revered ayatollah during the rule of Saddam Hussein.

Other than wanting a powerful stake in the new Iraq, al-Sadr opposes the United States' presence and wants to see Iraq become an Islamic republic. His Mehdi militia, composed of volunteers and former military men, is confronting U.S. forces in a number of cities throughout the south, not just in Najaf. In Baghdad, in fact, in Sadr City, as we saw earlier, that's going on as well.

Joining us now to talk a little bit more about what's occurring in Najaf, our military analyst, retired U.S. Air Force Major General Don Shepperd, joining us today from Tucson.

General, thanks very much for joining us. Militarily, give me an example if you can, something jumps off the top of your head, the complicated nature of what the Marines, the soldiers, backed up by the Iraqi forces, the enormous delicate challenge they face right now.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE: Yes. Wolf, this is really very delicate. That's the right word.

These people are being statesmen, as well as soldiers, being both at the same time. What the Mehdi Army has done it is using tactics that have effectively negated the overwhelming -- the overwhelming effects of U.S. firepower.

We can't use tanks. We can't use aircraft. We can't use helicopters inside these holy shrines.

It's basic infantry tactics, down and ugly. Cordon off, search, small teams going in, digging these guys out. And so it's mano a mano, if you will. And again, the -- it doesn't take a lot of training for these fighter. All it takes is rifles, it takes mortar, it takes RPGs, and they're very, very effective at it. So it's tough going.

BLITZER: And you have to assume -- even though we just heard Matthew Chance say U.S. military officials say they've seen no evidence of it, you certainly have to assume they've laced the area with explosives and they're ready to detonate them if it comes down to an actual battle inside the mosque.

SHEPPERD: You do, indeed, Wolf. And the sad thing about this is that this has been cast in terms of religious terms.

This is not a religious movement. This is a political movement, it's a power movement by Muqtada al-Sadr within the Shia moment itself, against Sistani, if you will.

He has got great followers in there, and they're growing, not diminishing, if you will. And so, again, he has no qualms about destroying these sites. And the sites, if they are destroyed, of course, many people will blame it upon the U.S. forces as being responsible for it.

BLITZER: So bottom line, what can the U.S. military do? Just wait, sit it out? It's almost like a hostage kind of a situation, where you've got some negotiations going on. In the meantime, you just sit tight?

SHEPPERD: You've got your finger right on it. The best thing we can do is cordon off the area so we can control the flow of people and arms to and from the area. You can also control basic services of water and electricity.

But patience is the answer. Continued -- continued negotiations with these people, and let the Iraqis take the lead. And, for goodness sakes, if we have to go in there, if we have to go in and dig people out of these sites, whether it's the Wadi al-Salam cemetery, the Valley of Peace, or the Imam Ali Shrine, let the Iraqis do it and be in the forefront, and back them up. Those are the two tactics.

BLITZER: Well, can the Iraqi troops -- we heard Matthew Chance just the other day say they've been trained by U.S. military personnel. There's an elite unit that's ready to go in. But do they have the capability to get the job done, based on what you know about the capability of Iraqi forces?

SHEPPERD: Really unknown. They undoubtedly do have some crack units that have been in very accelerated training down in that area and in other areas. But clearly, they are not equipped.

They haven't got a history working together, where you develop morale and tactics and that type of thing. They're clearly going to have to be backed up by U.S. forces. And the U.S. forces are going to have to be very, very careful not to destroy the shrines. That's the fine line we're walking, and it's a real fault line.

BLITZER: All right. It's a delicate, delicate moment, militarily, politically, and from a religious standpoint, as well. General Shepperd, thanks very much. Let's move on to politics. On the campaign front, the Kerry camp takes aim at an attack ad. It's releasing an ad of its own countering claims John Kerry lied about his war record. At an appearance in Boston this morning, the Democratic presidential hopeful had a few choice words of his own for those who question his service record during the Vietnam War.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Over the last week, a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been attacking me. Of course this group isn't interested in the truth. They're not telling the truth. They didn't even exist until I won the nomination for president.

But here's what you really need to know about them. They're funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas. They're a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the president won't denounce what they're up to tells you everything that you need to know. He wants them to do his dirty work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Strong words, indeed, from Senator Kerry. He's again called, as we just heard, on the president to denounce the ad aired under the name of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

President Bush steering clear of that controversy, at least for the moment. He's at his home away from home from the White House, right now. A little bit of a vacation, not much of a vacation, preparing for the Republican convention, only 11 days away in Madison Square Garden in New York.

CNN's Elaine Quijano, she's keeping tabs what the president is doing. She's over at the White House.

First of all, any reaction from the White House to what John Kerry said this morning?

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Wolf.

Not directly from the White House. But certainly a spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign is repeating a line that we have heard before about this particular issue. And that is that the Bush-Cheney campaign will not attack, and has not in the past attacked Senator Kerry's record of service in Vietnam, and will not do so.

Effectively, what they're saying is that they will focus on issues of the future, not on the record of the past. That's just paraphrasing Steve Schmidt, spokesperson for the Bush-Cheney campaign, making those statement after Senator Kerry came out.

But President Bush will be spending some time, as you said, at his home away from home, down in Crawford, Texas, where aides say that he will likely be focusing some of his time on working on that camp -- that convention speech, rather, ahead of the convention in New York City. Now, aides also say that he will be enjoying some downtime. But, of course, the White House message is still getting out.

This morning, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, spoke here in Washington, D.C., giving a speech at the U.S. Institute of Peace, talking about an administration strategy in fighting terrorism, outreach to the Muslim world. Now, Dr. Rice also took questions on a number of other topics, including Iraq and the leadership there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We need to be both more patient with people who are making these early steps, less critical of every twist and turn, less certain that every up and down is going to collapse the process, and more humble about how long it has taken us to get to a multi-ethnic democracy that works. And I will tell you one thing. To this point, I have not yet seen the Iraqis make a compromise as bad as the one that in 1789 made my ancestors three-fifths of a man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

QUIJANO: Dr. Condoleezza Rice giving her perspective there on the events unfolding in Iraq.

Now, as for President Bush, no public events on his calendar right now. We do know that on Monday he is scheduled to hold his annual meeting with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. That is a closed event, private event. But President Bush, again, aides say, will likely take some time down in Crawford to work on that convention speech and enjoy a little down time -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And there's word that Karen Hughes, his long-time aide, is helping him prepare for the Republican convention in New York. Elaine, I want to read to our viewers precisely the statement released by Steve Schmidt from the Bush-Cheney campaign.

He said this: "Senator Kerry knows his statements are false. Senator Kerry knows President Bush has called his service in Vietnam 'noble.' Senator Kerry knows that the Bush campaign has criticized him for voting against money for our combat troops in Iraq and Afghanistan. And the Bush campaign has tried to have a debate about the future, not the past."

That's the statement released by Steve Schmidt, from the Bush- Cheney campaign, shortly after John Kerry's very strong, strong statement earlier today, speaking before firefighters up in Boston.

More unrest in Iraq. How stable or unstable is the country looking right now? Republican Congressman Chris Shays of Connecticut has just returned from his sixth visit to Iraq. He'll join me live to talk about what he saw and how the Iraqis are doing.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Joining us now to discuss the overall situation in Iraq, a key member of the United States Congress. Representative Christopher Shays is a Republican from Connecticut. He's joining us now live from Stanford.

Welcome home. I know you've just made your sixth trip to Iraq. Give our viewers the bottom-line assessment. Are things moving in the right direction, from your perspective, Congressman, or the wrong direction?

REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: Oh, since the transfer of power, the right direction. I think we made a mistake asking the Army to -- to be in charge of rebuilding Iraq. We made a huge mistake disbanding the Iraqi military, its police and its government. We left a gigantic void.

Our troops had to patrol the streets and guard the hospitals when we could have had Iraqis do it. And we basically told a large element of Iraq they had no future. And that's who al-Sadr has basically reached out to. And we clearly let him grow, when we should have shut him off a long time ago.

What's good now is, you have a sovereign Iraqi government. It truly is sovereign, making decisions. They can't tell us how to fight a battle, but they can tell us whether they want us to go in or not. And the people in Najaf want us to come in. They want al-Sadr out.

BLITZER: You know, it's interesting. You don't -- you virtually don't even see John Negroponte, publicly at least, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. What a contrast to the days when Ambassador Paul Bremer was effectively in charge of that country.

Is Negroponte calling the shots behind the scenes? Because, you know, the critics still say this Iraqi government, or the interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi, is simply a U.S. puppet.

SHAYS: Well, he's not a U.S. puppet, but he depends on military force. And he's going to depend on our finances. So we have influence, clearly. But Negroponte gets it.

He respects the fact that the Iraqis have to make decisions. And they're going to make some good decisions and they're going to make some bad decisions. But lord knows, we've made some bad decisions along the way during the last year.

I had an interesting experience. I had a press conference in Iraq, and standing next to me was the foreign minister. And it was my conference.

I went out and the Iraqi press immediately started to ask the foreign minister questions about Chalabi. And the ambassador and I just stood there listening as Iraqi press questioned their Iraqi government. It was the best indication to me of who's in charge.

BLITZER: Well, what about Ahmad Chalabi and his nephew, Salem Chalabi, who is in charge of the war crimes tribunal? Did you get some special insight while you were there? Because this is such a confusing story to a lot of us who have covered Iraq for so many years.

SHAYS: Well, Chalabi is quite an interesting individual. And, you know, if you go to Jordan, as I did, they told me they think he owes them a lot of money, tens of millions of dollars in basic theft.

If you speak to some of our people in Iraq they say the charges have validity. And, you know, if he comes to Iraq, I think he'll get a fair trial. But there will be a trial.

BLITZER: Well, Ahmad Chalabi, I believe, has returned to Baghdad. Salem Chalabi I don't think has yet returned. He's been in London, at least the past several days that we've been trying to catch up with him.

Right now, in Najaf, based on what you saw -- and you were just there -- what should the U.S. and Iraqi forces being doing with Muqtada al-Sadr, assuming that, you know, he's in control of this situation? And that's the assumption that is so widespread.

SHAYS: Well, I make that assumption as well. I mean, the bottom line is that you can't have two governments. And that's what Allawi is pointing out. You can't have two militaries.

And he's encouraging Sadr -- al-Sadr to -- to work through the political process. He's opened so many doors. And al-Sadr doesn't seem to want to be taking those door. And he's standing up so much to Iraqi government that he's really forcing action, in my judgment.

Now, it's clear, you know, because I've seen pictures of -- of weapons in these very sacred mosques. So, you know, they're bringing the weapons in there. And we've got to obviously be careful that we don't see destruction of these holy sites.

BLITZER: I know, Congressman, you met with military personnel, U.S. troops on the ground while you were there. I assume you met with some not just from your own state of Connecticut, as well. Did you get a sense that the morale, the mood, the determination of these troops, do they want to stay there, or would they just as soon get out of there as quickly as possible?

SHAYS: Oh, I think they want to deal with al-Sadr. I think that's clear. But I also met with Iraqi troops.

I met with ones who trained. I met with those who had done action in Sadr City, which is a part of Baghdad. And they're beginning to have some sense of respect and honor because they're being well trained. And they're now starting to get the equipment.

When you've heard of Iraqi police that have backed off, it's they haven't had the weapons and they haven't had the protective gear that our own troops have and our own military folks have had.

BLITZER: Congressman, I want you to stand by. I want to take a quick break. But we have some more thought, some more issues to go over, including the entire controversy over John Kerry's Vietnam War record, the swift boat record, particularly, his decision to go on the offensive today earlier in a speech before firefighters in Boston.

Chris Shays is going to stick around. We'll take a quick break. Much more of our conversation when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Democratic presidential nominee speaking earlier today in Boston before a group of firefighters. We're continuing our conversation with Republican Congressman Chris Shays of Connecticut.

What do you make of this whole controversy over John Kerry's record in Vietnam, the swift boat veterans who are going after him, and his decision today to take this whole issue and go on the offensive?

SHAYS: I don't think the Swift Boat Veterans are helping the Republican cause or helping the president. I mean, John Kerry served in Vietnam. He's a war hero.

Now, I do think that they could be critical of wondering why he didn't support getting Saddam out of Kuwait when we had a coalition supporting that, a worldwide coalition, or why he -- you know, having voted now to allow us to go into Iraq, he kind of acts like he didn't, and then didn't vote to support our troops and the equipment they needed. Those are the areas I think he could be criticized for.

BLITZER: Do you think the White House, the president, should accept the advice of John McCain and simply tell these others, you know, that this is -- that John Kerry's service was noble, it was the good thing to do, and just stop it? Cease and desist, in other words. Should the White House, assuming these other guys would listen to them, or the Bush-Cheney campaign urge them actively, aggressively, to stop this campaign against John Kerry?

SHAYS: Absolutely. And especially given that the advice comes from John McCain. I think -- I think it's sound advice.

BLITZER: And this whole notion that -- at least my impression is they're not really angry at John McCain -- John Kerry so much for what he did during the four-and-a-half months he actually served in Vietnam. What they're furious about, like so many other Vietnam War veterans, is what he did when he came home, when he testified before Congress, speaking about atrocities, war crimes, when he threw his ribbons over that fence.

That's probably, at least in the conversations I've had with most of these Vietnam veterans who don't like him, that's why they're angry. They're not really that angry because of what he did or didn't do during his service aboard those swift boats.

SHAYS: Wolf, how many years was that ago? How many years ago?

BLITZER: Thirty. SHAYS: I mean, you know, I'd like people more to come more into the president. There's plenty of reasons to criticize Senator Kerry in the present that relate to actually what we're having to do and what we need to do.

BLITZER: What is your bottom line on this campaign, Congressman, right now, a week or so before the Republican convention? You'll be there in New York. What does the president need to do right now to get re-elected?

SHAYS: Well, I think he needs to be himself. I think he needs to express the confidence in the decisions he made.

I think he has to be willing to be very candid about the mistakes we made in Iraq, disbanding the army, the military and the police, having -- not having the State Department not being more culturally sensitive. But we're on the right track now. And, you know, you're allowed to make a few mistakes when you make these big decisions.

BLITZER: Nobody is perfect. Congressman Christopher Shays, thanks very much. Glad to have you back in the United States safe and sound from Iraq.

SHAYS: Thank you.

BLITZER: Coming up, Iraq under fire. With the developments in Najaf and Sadr City, what needs to be done to bring peace to that nation? I'll talk about the issues facing Iraq with two reporters. "Washington Post" reporter Robin Wright, she'll join us. And "New York Times" reporter Jeffrey Gettleman, he'll join us as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A personal appeal to the rebel Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, this time from the Iraqi interim prime minister, Ayad Allawi. Today, he called on al-Sadr and his supporters to leave the holy shrine in Najaf and to adhere to the rule of law. Allawi says it's his final call.

Joining us now to talk about this standoff, two reporters who know the situation well: "Washington Post" correspondent Robin Wright; "New York Times" reporter Jeffrey Gettleman. He's just back in the United States after spending several months in Iraq covering conflict. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Robin, he says it's his final call. Do you believe him?

ROBIN WRIGHT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I suspect that the interim government really has to take a stand, whether it's today or tomorrow. It has to be some time soon. It faces a number of kind of existential questions. Is it going to be able to consolidate its control seven weeks in and represent the kind of authority that will allow the country to move ahead on a very tight schedule, writing new -- first of all, having election, writing constitutions, and having final elections for a permanent government. It also faces the question of, is it going to stand up to militias and prevent the disintegration of country along the lines of, not just Sadr's militia, but the challenge from a whole array of militias across country?

BLITZER: It seems, Robin, that -- and as someone with the first name "Wolf," I'm reluctant to say this, but how many times can he cry wolf and make this threat, without delivering, without losing face, without losing some credibility among the Iraqi people? I'm referring to Ayad Allawi.

WRIGHT: Well, that also applies to Muqtada al-Sadr. His credibility is also on the line here. He has more than once said he's going to agree to terms that would allow his forces to put down their arms and become a political movement and integrate into the political process in Iraq.

And his credibility is on the line, too. The majority of people, I think, in Najaf would like to see an end to this. They may be attracted by some of his anti-American ideas, but the fact is, they don't want to see their homes destroyed or the shrine.

BLITZER: Jeffrey, you spent quite a bit of time, as most of our viewers -- at least those who read "The New York Times" will recall, in Fallujah, where there was a similar standoff, the U.S. Marines about ready to pounce, at the last second, held back. And those who were there basically allowed to continue to fight another day. Is there a comparison in your mind between what's happening now in Najaf to what happened in Fallujah?

JEFFREY GETTLEMAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think on a lot of fronts this is very similar to what we saw in April, when there was an uprising in Fallujah, and at the same time there was a Sadr uprising in a number of Shia areas across Iraq.

I think there are sort of two key issues here. One is that the U.S. and the Iraqi authorities in this case are so eager to project strength that the first reaction in one of these uprisings is promising this very heavy-handed solution: "You had better get out or else." And I remember Allawi saying something like: "We're not going to negotiate, we're not going to call a truce."

And now that seems exactly what he's doing. So that sort of jeopardizes the credibility of the new Iraqi administration on one hand. And that was similar with Fallujah, in the same sense, where the Marines were going to roll through the city, they had promised to eradicate all terrorists in Fallujah and get the people who had killed those four contractors, back at the end of March.

I think a second front that they're similar is this rhythm we're seeing, which is very psychologically taxing to the soldiers on the front lines, where they're revved up to fight this enormous battle, then they're sort of scaled back and told to, you know, maintain a peace. Then they're revved up again to fight another big battle, and then they're scaled back. And I think psychologically that's very difficult for the soldiers on the front lines to sort of live in this world of mixed signals, where they're told one thing one day, and then something completely different the next.

Those, Robin, terrorists, or fighters, whatever you want to call them in Fallujah, my recollection, mostly Sunnis, mostly Saddam loyalists. In Najaf, Shiites. Do you sense, Robin, and you've studied this over many years about as closely as anyone, that there's some sort of alliance brewing between the Saddam loyalist, the Fedayeen, who are, let's say, Sunnis, by and large, and these Shiites who are loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr? Is there an alliance of convenience developing that potentially creates an even bigger threat to the U.S. and its Iraqi allies?

WRIGHT: These are, indeed, strange bedfellows. They are people who don't have a common goal except their opposition to the U.S. forces who are now providing security for the new Iraqi government. So in that sense, we did see last week the first signs from a small group in Fallujah, about 3000 who had banners of Sadr and said they supported his cause and that the target was the United States.

Beyond that, they do share a common interest -- some of them, anyway, in seeing the creation of a new government that is more of a theocracy than a democracy. Then it begins to break down because they do have strong differences between Sunni and Shia branches of faith. But they do have two ideological and tactical commonalities.

BLITZER: All right, Robin Wright and Jeffrey Gettleman, I'm going to ask both of you to stand by. We have more to discuss about what's happening in Iraq right now. We'll take a quick break. We'll continue our conversation when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: I'm not going to speculate on what the Iraqi government has done. They've shown very good common sense about how to deal with the very severe and difficult problems that they have faced. They understand the situation there. The Iraqi government has been very clear with Sadr that he has to do some things -- leave the shrine, that he's got to disband his militia.

We'll let this play out, because the Iraqis are sovereign, and they need to resolve their own problems. But nobody is taking Sadr at his word. He's someone from whom you have to see action. He's said lots of words before. He's never followed through on them. And I don't think you're going to see an Iraqi government that's going to take his word.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Dr. Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser, speaking with me yesterday on the standoff in Najaf. And with the holy shrine at stake and Muslim leaders around the world watching, diplomacy and threats of a military showdown continuing at this hour in Najaf.

Talking about that with my guests, "Washington Post" correspondent Robin Wright, "New York Times" reporter "Jeffrey Gettleman."

What do you make, Robin, of the way the Bush administration, the U.S. government, is handling this standoff? You heard Condoleezza Rice say the U.S. is sort of taking a backseat, letting the Iraqi government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi take the front seat.

WRIGHT: I think that's actually pretty true. One thing that's striking, I was in Baghdad a couple of weeks ago with Secretary of State Powell, and I was struck by the way the embassy is focusing so heavily on reconstruction issues, getting money in to create jobs and deal with the dissatisfaction, frustration, and anger there, and leaving the day to day running of government and a lot of these very critical, tactical issues to the Allawi government. I think they've been both surprised and pleased with toughness and leadership he's shown.

BLITZER: Jeffrey Gettleman, frustration, the frustration level among U.S. military personnel in Iraq. You were there during the standoff in Fallujah. You've been there in other military encounters as well. In all of the interviews you've done with troops, American troops, on the ground, what was your bottom line assessment of how they feel about what's going on?

GETTLEMAN: I think they have a really difficult mission, I mean, one of the more difficult missions in this country's history. I mean, even if you compare it to Vietnam, at least it was pretty clear they were there as a combat force.

I mean, what we're seeing in Najaf now is sort of the point I was making before, is that they're told one day that they are a combat force and the next day they're a peacekeeping force. And I think that sort of change in direction is really difficult.

I think a lot of soldiers feel good about the work they're doing. I think their morale is pretty high. But I think it's a very challenging environment. And take, let's say, the Marines. The Marines are designed and trained to be a strike force, not an occupying force. And one of the conflicts they had in Fallujah, was what will it take to actually occupy Fallujah, to clear out the city of terrorism and insurgents and establish control? And they said, we just don't have enough troop. We'd have to put one Marine on every street corner. One, we don't have enough people and, two, that's not really our people.

And I think now they're trying to use the Iraqi forces as a proxy to accomplish their ends. But the problem is, as we've seen time and time again, the Iraqi forces are just not trained that well. And I think that has to be in some sense demoralizing and frustrating to the American troops who had counted on working with them, just as they had in Afghanistan, where they pushed the Northern Alliance in front of them. They were sort of hoping for some sort of symbiotic relationship with the new Iraqi forces, and that just hasn't evolved yet.

BLITZER: Robin, I can't tell you how many U.S. officials who deal with this issue of Iraq on a day-to-day basis say to me -- and I'm sure they say to you as well -- you know what, you're focusing in on the horrible things that are still going on in Najaf, for example, Sadr City in Baghdad, that Shiite slum in the area, but if you look at the big picture, things are clearly moving in the right direction -- the reconstruction is unfolding, the political process is moving forward. They're going to have their elections early next year, and that the media, to a certain degree, is focusing only in on the negative, and as a result, the American public is not getting the full picture of the positive things that are going on. I assume you get those kinds of comments as well.

WRIGHT: Somewhat. The fact is on the issue of reconstruction, the United States allocated $18.4 billion, but in the past year has actually spent less than $500 million. We've had a real problem in transferring that money, getting it in to Iraq to make a difference.

So there -- while there are some good news stories, and they may not be getting enough play, the fact is a lot of the good news has been stalled by our own inefficiency, and bureaucracy, in making a big difference inside Iraq.

BLITZER: When you left Iraq the last time, Jeffrey, did you get the sense the Iraqis really want the U.S. troops out of there, or they're happy they're on the ground?

GETTLEMAN: I think that's a really difficult question for a lot of people to answer. Because on one hand, they feel continually humiliated by having the U.S. troops there in their country, telling them what to do, and it's sort of a reminder of being occupied, even though the power has been officially transferred to the Iraqi government.

On the other hand, though, I think they realize that there's been this profusion of armed groups. There's more weapons sort of out on the streets in Iraq than ever has been before, there's more chaos, there's more disorder. So a lot of people acknowledge the fact you need a strong military. And right now, the U.S. military now is the only strong military in Iraq to provide some sense of order.

BLITZER: Jeffrey Gettleman is back from Iraq, safe and sound. Thanks, Jeffrey, very much.

Robin Wright, one of best in the business, reporting for "The Washington Post." thanks to you as well.

WRIGHT: Thank you.

BLITZER: A potential development puts the Scott Peterson trial on hold for the weekend. How could it be? What could it be? And how will the defense proceed in its cross-examination of the star witness Amber Frey?

Our legal analyst Chris Darden, he's standing by. He'll join us next to talk about the latest developments, some of which very surprising, in the entire Scott Peterson trial.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Court is dark today in the Scott Peterson double murder trial. The judge abruptly stopped proceedings yesterday, delaying the cross examination of Peterson's former girlfriend Amber Frey.

The judge says the court is looking into what he called a potential development. A source close to the case tells CNN the defense wants to introduce more phone conversations between Peterson and Frey. The prosecution is objecting. Frey is now expected to face defense questioning on Monday.

Joining us now with some insight, our legal analyst Chris Darden. Chris, thanks very much for joining us. What do you make of this delay? And I know a lot of it is speculating, because we don't know what went on behind closed doors in the judge's chambers.

CHRISTOPHER DARDEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I'm surprised that there would be a delay. We all know that there were 241 phone calls between Amber Frey and Scott Peterson that were taped. The prosecution played 24 of those tapes.

And certainly, they had to know that the defense would want to play additional tapes, once Geragos began his cross examination of Amber Frey. So, I'm surprised that the prosecution didn't file a motion excluding these additional tapes prior to trial.

BLITZER: If you introduce these tapes as evidence, you have to assume that the defense attorneys are going to want to hear all of them, because there might be something that you would get a different impression of from the jurors.

DARDEN: Absolutely. However, the defense is going to run into California's hearsay rules, as they relate to admissions by a defendant. This is -- Scott Peterson is Mark Geragos's client. And for the most part, there is no exception to the hearsay rule that would allow Mark Geragos to play these additional conversations.

Now, he may be able to convince the judge to allow him to be able to play some tapes, because by playing these additional tapes, they place tapes and conversations already played by the prosecution in context.

BLITZER: Now, a lot of these tapes done in full cooperation with police. Amber Frey, some suggest, was coached by police on what kind of questions to ask Scott Peterson.

Does she become an agent of law enforcement if this goes forward? I ask that because some have suggested that Scott Peterson was not informed of his Miranda Rights to remain silent when questioned by law enforcement. Was she an agent, in other words, of the police?

DARDEN: Well, she was certainly an agent of police when she began accepting and placing phone calls to Scott Peterson for the express purpose of taping those conversations for the police. But this doesn't raise a Miranda issue. Defendants are only required to receive their Miranda Rights when they are in police custody, and of course, Scott Peterson is not in custody during these conversations. He is a -- all around the state and in other places, but not at the police station, not in handcuffs, and not in jail. So, we don't have a Miranda issue here.

BLITZER: And so, there's no room for challenging the prosecution, that Mark Geragos is not going to be -- in your opinion, is not going to be able to say that all of this evidence should be thrown out because the Miranda Rights were not read to Scott Peterson by an agent of law enforcement?

DARDEN: Absolutely. Absolutely. He won't be able to argue that. But still, Mark Geragos should have a lot of room for some very, very effective cross examination of Amber Frey.

BLITZER: It seems only fair that if they can play parts of the tape, he'd be allowed to play all the tape to give the jurors the full perspective. And I sense it'll be hard for the judge to say no.

DARDEN: You know, I believe it's evidence code section 356 in California that might allow the defense to play the entire -- an entire conversation or an entire individual conversation, if the prosecution introduces part of that conversation.

But you have 241 different conversations. And so, that exception to the hearsay rule may not apply. They're going to have to fight like heck in chambers to try to get these additional tapes in.

And you're right, it would seem fair to be able to play the rest. But that's not necessarily the law.

BLITZER: Because Mark Geragos could say these tapes were played out of context, you really need to hear, jurors, the whole thing in order to fully appreciate what my client was going through.

Let me get your bottom line assessment right now on where this stands. Because there have been some ups and downs, good weeks for Scott Peterson, bad weeks for Scott Peterson. Clearly, these audiotapes make him look as an awful human being.

DARDEN: Absolutely. The prosecution's done a very good job of destroying the character of a man who is wholly lack in character. So, they've done that very well. But the jurors will want to be looking for evidence that Scott Peterson actually killed Laci -- his wife Laci and his unborn son.

When I look at this case and review the things that go on in this courtroom on a daily basis, I got to tell you, the defense is still in a pretty good position to either hang this jury or win an acquittal for Scott Peterson.

They're using a scorch-and-burn defense. They have attacked just about every prosecution witness that has testified and, many times, turned those witnesses, to some extent, to their own witnesses. And I think that's going to happen with Amber Frey.

BLITZER: Ten seconds -- we only have 10 seconds left. How tough will Geragos be on cross examination once that starts?

DARDEN: I think he'll be a sweetheart, quite frankly, unless provoked or unless Amber Frey says or does something that warrants an attack on cross examination.

BLITZER: Chris Darden -- Chris Darden, as usual, thanks for that analysis. Appreciate it very much.

DARDEN: Pleasure.

BLITZER: And that's our show for this hour, but I'll be back later today, as I am every weekday, 5:00 p.m. Eastern, for "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." CNN military analyst, Brigadier General David Grange -- among others, he'll join me to examine the battle for Najaf.

Also, it's been 32 years since the Munich Olympic Games and the terrorist attack on Israeli athletes. I'll speak with Ankie Spitzer and her daughter Anouk about those Games and about their husband and father, Andrei Spitzer. He was the Israeli fencing coach who died in Munich 32 years ago.

Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LIVE FROM" with Kyra Phillips and Fredricka Whitfield is up next.

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