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CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Twisted Millionaire's Victims Speak Out

Aired August 27, 2004 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight. They were kidnapped and sexually abused by a twisted millionaire, held captive for months and years in an underground dungeon at his upstate home and raped by him day after day. Now, two of John Jamelske's five victims share their horrible ordeal in their first live interview.

Kirsten, we're not going to identify the last names, kidnapped at age 14 in 1988, imprisoned and sexually assaulted for nearly three years.

And Jennifer, kidnapped at age 26, in 2001, and put through more than two months of the same hell.

Also with us is Sheriff Kevin Walsh who was in charge of the dungeon rape case.

And later psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig with a lot of experience counseling survivors of sexual abuse. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: One program note. Tomorrow night we'll repeat our interview with President and Mrs. George W. Bush. That's tomorrow night. Sunday night we'll have a live edition of LARRY KING LIVE from Madison Square Garden and then two shows nightly Monday through Thursday next week, all from the Republican National Convention. All live, 9:00 and midnight Eastern time.

We welcome here in Los Angeles, Kirsten and Jennifer. And in Syracuse, New York, the sheriff of Onondaga County, New York, Sheriff Kevin Walsh.

This is a real-life horror story. It generated shocking headlines around the world. You may find many of the details of this rather disturbing. Over a period of 15 years an eccentric millionaire named John Jamelske kidnapped five teenage girls and women, held them captive in an underground concrete bunker he built at his home in the middle of a very nice neighborhood outside Syracuse. He raped his prisoners over and over again, terrorized them with threats and psychological mind games.

In April of 2003, his fifth captive made contact with her sister. Police nabbed the 67-year-old grandfather and uncovered the dark dungeon, you see it there, of sexual perversity. Jamelske is now serving 18 years to life in prison for five counts of first degree kidnapping. Kirsten, you were 14 years old at the time, right?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: How did it happen? What happened?

KIRSTEN: I was out with friends, and I got into a car with somebody that I didn't know...

KING: Got into a car with who? I can't -- speak up a little.

KIRSTEN: I got into a car with him, Jamelske.

KING: Why?

KIRSTEN: Well, I was hanging out with friends, and I was like trying to get a ride to go wherever I was going next.

KING: He came along?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: In a car?

KIRSTEN: Yes. And that's all that I really remember other than just waking up in the dungeon.

KING: You asked for a lift?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: You remember getting in the car?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: And the next thing you remember is waking up?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: Did he -- did he give you some sort of medicine to knock you out? What happened?

KIRSTEN: I don't know. I'm assuming so. I mean, when I talked to him after I, you know, woke up, it was -- well, he said it was three days later. So, you know, I don't know.

KING: Do you think it was the next day?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: Were you drinking at all at the time?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: You were? Were your friends -- did your friends see you get in the car?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: Did anyone tell you not to get in?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: But still you went?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: And you were looking to go where?

KIRSTEN: To another friend's house.

KING: Was this late at night?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: I see. Jennifer, what happened to you?

JENNIFER: Basically the same thing. I was hanging out.

KING: You were how old, 26?

JENNIFER: I was 26, yes. And I was going from one friend's house to another and I was in a bad neighborhood, and John Jamelske came along, asked me if I needed a ride, and he seemed to be, you know, nice, old guy.

KING: Grandfather like.

JENNIFER: Yes. And I figured I was getting out of one situation but I actually put myself into a whole worse situation. Just like her, I remember being in the car and trying to get out of the car and that was the last thing I remember.

KING: What do you mean getting out of one situation? You were in a bad situation?

JENNIFER: Well, I was walking in a bad neighborhood and there was a group of young kids following behind me kind of saying stuff. And so I was a little nervous, kind of picked up my pace.

KING: What do you remember after getting in the car?

JENNIFER: I remember him talking to me, and keeping the conversation like so my -- I wouldn't be looking at where we were going.

KING: Did you tell him where you wanted to go?

JENNIFER: yes, I told him that I wanted to go to my home in Bridgeport which -- where his house was I later found out that it's very close to where I lived in Bridgeport. So it didn't seem like anything was out of the ordinary. KING: How did he get you to his place?

JENNIFER: He drove me. And then we pulled into his garage and I said, "what are we doing here?" And he said, "oh, I have to run in my house and get something." And then when he got out of the car I tried, myself, getting out of the car, and I couldn't. And that was the last thing I remember.

KING: You don't remember him knocking you out?

JENNIFER: No.

KING: You must have been doped or something?

JENNIFER: Something, something. I don't know.

KING: Were you drunk?

JENNIFER: I was drunk. But I mean...

KING: Not out?

JENNIFER: Not out. Not out at all. I mean I wasn't that drunk to the point where I would have passed out and blacked out and not remembered.

KING: Sheriff Walsh, were these people reported missing at the time? Was there any kind of manhunt done for missing girls?

SHERIFF KEVIN WALSH, ONONDAGA COUNTY, N.Y.: Well, Kirsten had -- her family had reported her missing and we had done an investigation, an investigation that actually continued for an extended period of time. Jennifer was also reported missing and we did a missing person investigation on her. I can remember that we even had the helicopter up searching the neighborhoods to see if she had been lost in the area that she was last seen.

KING: All right, Jennifer, what did he start doing to you? What happened? I'm sorry, we'll start with Kirsten first. What happened?

KIRSTEN: Well, I woke up in there and I didn't have any clothes on. It was cold.

KING: Were any other girls around?

KIRSTEN: No. No. It was just me. I couldn't see. It was pitch black.

KING: Raped you?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: And then raped you a lot?

KIRSTEN: Every day.

KING: Every day? Did you see any of the other girls?

KIRSTEN: No.

KING: So were you all in different parts of the dungeon? So to speak? I mean how was this set up?

KIRSTEN: Well, when I was first taken, since I was the first one, there wasn't the dungeon.

KING: I see. There was no one else. Where were you kept?

KIRSTEN: I was in, I guess they said it was a well. It was an old well. And then I woke up another day in where everybody else was kept and I don't know how I got from that place to there, either.

KING: When the other people came, did you get to know them?

JENNIFER: There was never more than one -- there was never more than one person there at the same time.

KING: You were in different rooms like?

JENNIFER: No. There was only one room and we were all held...

KING: Where were you the rest of the time?

JENNIFER: Just in the one room. There was no...

KING: But you didn't talk to each other?

KIRSTEN: We weren't there at the same time. It was all different times.

KIRSTEN: I was there like in 1998.

JENNIFER: And I was there in 2001.

KING: Then he released you?

KIRSTEN: Yes. I was there for almost three years. And...

KING: I see. So when you were released he took another person. When you were released he took another person.

JENNIFER: Yes.

KING: Why weren't you able to help the police get him once you got out?

KIRSTEN: I -- didn't ever -- he...

JENNIFER: He made us believe that the cops were involved.

KING: You never reported it?

KIRSTEN: No. He showed me a picture of my little brother saying that he was going to kill him. And brought me a picture of my family, and my house.

KING: What did you tell your family? Where were you for 2 1/2 years?

KIRSTEN: They just thought that, you know, I...

KING: Ran away?

KIRSTEN: Yes, ran away. And...

KING: So you never told anyone?

KIRSTEN: No.

KING: Nor did you?

JENNIFER: No, I did. I did.

KING: Who did you tell?

JENNIFER: I told my mom, and then my mom prompted me to tell the police.

KING: Were you able to trace where you were?

JENNIFER: No.

KING: Why not?

JENNIFER: Because when he brought me home, he handcuffed me and put a hooded sweatshirt backwards over my face. So I didn't know where I was.

KING: Your family accepted the fact that you were just a runaway, didn't ask you where you were or who you were with?

KIRSTEN: Yes. But I didn't know so I couldn't really tell them much.

KING: Did you just say -- you had made up a story?

KIRSTEN: Yes. He had me writing letters home to my family. And he was like mailing them from all different places.

JENNIFER: He was skilled at brainwashing.

KING: Jamelske was on "Dateline" on NBC and claimed he never hurt anyone. Let's watch a little of that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN JAMELSKE, SERVING 18 YEARS TO LIFE FOR 5 COUNTS OF 1ST DEGREE KIDNAPPING: Never hurt anyone physically.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chaining them up and keeping them in that room isn't hurting somebody? JAMELSKE: People wear ankle bracelets all day long.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not jewelry, John. Come on. It's -- you chained them to the floor.

JAMELSKE: It didn't hurt them. A half an hour, an hour after I took them off, they were fine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Was he nice to you, Jennifer?

JENNIFER: No. No. I don't call that nice at all.

KING: As we go to break, and we'll be back with more, we're talking calls, Dr. Ludwig will be joining us later, here's what another victim had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was forced to have sex with him every day, and if I didn't have sex with him every day, then that would add on to the time that I was going to be there. If I'm never see my family again then I'm going to kill myself and then you're going to have to take my body out of here. And I said I'll find something to use to kill myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've never seen a case like this. I've never seen anybody as controlling, as dehumanizing, as just downright cruel as this particular defendant.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Sheriff Walsh, did you arrest him?

WALSH: He was actually arrested by the Manweitz (ph) Police Department and turned over to our abuse persons unit for further investigation. So we conducted the investigation from that point on.

KING: All right, now Kirsten what did you do for 2 1/2 years? He had to feed you.

KIRSTEN: Mm-hmm.

KING: What was -- what was the day like? What did you do?

KIRSTEN: I laid on a mattress, in the dark, praying. I want to leave.

KING: Did you watch television? KIRSTEN: No.

KING: No. Listen to the radio?

KIRSTEN: No.

KING: Go into other rooms in the house?

KIRSTEN: There was no rooms.

KING: Well, there had to be room upstairs, right?

KIRSTEN: I wasn't upstairs.

JENNIFER: He wouldn't let...

KING: You were in the dungeon all the time?

KIRSTEN: Well, first I was in the room, then I was in the dungeon.

KING: Did he leave the house a lot?

KIRSTEN: I don't know.

KING: Did you try to figure out a way to get out?

KIRSTEN: Yes. But he had combination locks on the, like all the metal doors. And even when he would come down into the dungeon, he would turn around and lock the combination.

JENNIFER: So he would lock himself in there, also, with us.

KING: What can he talk to you about?

KIRSTEN: Anything. Everything.

KING: Like?

JENNIFER: He made me read the bible to him.

KING: Did you try to make -- like act friendly toward him? You have two children, right?

JENNIFER: Yes.

KING: Had to be worried hell about them?

JENNIFER: Oh, yes, definitely.

I mean, as far as -- I mean I was down there for two months. Now I didn't see anybody else. I had no other contact with no other person. So at times, yes, I did talk to him. Because, it was the only source of anyone to talk to that I had.

KING: What did you make of it? KIRSTEN: He tried to fill my head with so much stuff.

KING: Like?

JENNIFER: Like, he had made me believe that he was working for somebody, and he was just doing this job. And I was getting sold on the Internet for like $30,000. And then he made it seem like he was saving me, and I wasn't going to actually go overseas. But he was going to bring me home. But I had to stay down there and have sex with him every day.

KING: You had to have sex every day?

JENNIFER: Every day. And if I didn't have sex with him one day that would add onto the time I was there.

KING: So it was rape?

JENNIFER: Yes.

KING: Was it perverse in a sense? I mean, did he do a lot of weird things?

JENNIFER: The whole scenario was weird in itself. As far as sexual wise...

KING: Were you cuffed? Were you handcuffed?

JENNIFER: No. No. The only time he had us handcuffed was when we were first there.

KING: OK. But he had no threat? He didn't have a knife or anything? You were just a prisoner?

JENNIFER: Yes.

KING: Did you ever try to attack him?

JENNIFER: Oh, yes.

KING: Kick him?

JENNIFER: Oh, yes.

KING: Knock him out?

JENNIFER: I tried put but then, you know, I tried to the point where I was so mad I wanted to kill him. Then I realized that there was combination locks on the doors, and the only one who knew the combination was him, so if I knocked him out and killed him, I'm going to be stuck down here with a dead body and probably no chance of ever getting out ever again. You know, there was no trace of my disappearance.

KING: What did you do, Kirsten? Did you ever think of hitting him? KIRSTEN: Of course. But, the same with her. You know, there's combination, and there's like these big metal doors. You're not going to get out. And then you just think about that.

KING: Did you bring you three meals a day?

JENNIFER: I ate once a day.

KIRSTEN: Yes it was like once a day.

JENNIFER: I could have whatever I wanted but only once a day.

KING: You could order?

JENNIFER: Whatever I wanted, but only once a day.

KING: You could tell him today I'd like bacon, lettuce and tomato?

JENNIFER: But only once a day.

KING: It's like a dog.

What about you, Kirsten?

KIRSTEN: No. I never got anything ordered. Just -- he brought me what he brought me. And when I first got there it was like crackers and water. And then crackers and Kool-Aid.

KING: What did he talk to you about? He had her read the Bible to him and told her he was some sort of CIA. What did he tell you?

KIRSTEN: Well, that's kind of the same story. I didn't have to read the Bible. But, it was the same thing he told me. You know, he didn't really say that I was going to be sold or anything like that. He said that one of the bosses that -- he always worked for bosses.

JENNIFER: Yes.

KIRSTEN: And one of their brothers or something wanted to be with one of his girls or something. I don't know.

KING: Crazy?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: How did he let you out? What happened the day he let you out?

KIRSTEN: He left me off at the airport.

KING: He just took you out of the dungeon into a car?

KIRSTEN: Yes. And I don't even really remember that ride, either. I just remember getting out of the car, and I had a blindfold on, and I waited to hear the car like go away, then I took the blindfold off and I realized where I was.

KING: Where were you?

KIRSTEN: And I just ran.

KIRSTEN: I was at Syracuse Airport. So I just ran into the airport.

KING: How'd you get out?

JENNIFER: Well, it was July -- July 7. Something like that. He came down into the basement. He gave me my clothes that I had came there in. And he threw them at me and he said, get dressed you're going home.

And I was terrified. I thought he was going to kill me. I'm thinking in my head, oh, God this is it. And then he tells me he's got to handcuff me and put this hooded sweatshirt backwards over my face. And then I'm really thinking, I'm done for. I never thought in a million years that he would bring me home.

KING: And what happened?

JENNIFER: Put me in the car. After about a 20-minute ride, he snipped the handcuffs, took the sweatshirt off, told me to get out.

KING: Where were you?

JENNIFER: I was at my mom's house.

KING: He dropped you at the house?

JENNIFER: At my mom's house. I never told him where my mom lived or nothing like that. And I got out of the car and I was thanking God and was like thank god, you know. Thank God for letting me breathe actual air.

KING: We'll bring the sheriff back in in a minute. And as we go to break, here's an official reading the statement by another one of the captives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me read you a couple of lines from our last victim statement. I cried and prayed every day of captivity. I never cried in front of him again, after he slapped me so hard he injured my ear. I did everything he asked, hoping that he would release me.

I tried to be friendly to him, and to make him laugh so that he would let me live. I would only cry when he was not around. I did not want him to hit me.

I did not want to die down in those rooms, because no one would ever find my body, and my soul would remain in a cold place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I live with this every day because it's just horrifying that somebody could do that to somebody. You know. And treat -- I felt basically felt like an animal just rotting away. Like some sex animal that -- for his pleasure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Sheriff Walsh, how did he explain this to authorities when he was captured?

WALSH: When he was first captured he made light of it. He treated it like it was a joke. He was telling us that the young woman that he had with him, a 16-year-old African-American woman, who really broke this case, that she was just a friend and that they had a relationship and they were planning to have a birthday party for her. And he treated the whole thing as if he thought that he was going to get off, and worst case scenario he'd get a slap on the wrist and maybe get some community service.

KING: When did you hook him with the other four girls? Or did they come forward, Sheriff?

WALSH: Well, we had had a -- we had the investigation with Jennifer, both as a missing person, and also as -- after she was released she reported to our agency the -- that she'd been held in captivity. So we'd had the investigation initially. As soon as our first detective crawled into that dungeon and saw the writing on the wall, the wording that she had told us about, the wall of thugs, that immediately sent him back to her house, and we realized that we had something much more than initially it appeared to be.

KING: And he is a millionaire, is that true, Sheriff?

WALSH: Well, the attorneys right now are digging through his property to find out what, in fact, he really owns. But we had heard reports at the time that he had anywhere from $2 million to $28 million. He has a number of investments in properties in different states. He has the property, the house that he owns. We really don't know, and I know that the attorneys for the five victims are looking into what his actual worth is.

KING: Does he have a family?

WALSH: Yes, he's got three sons. One that still lives in Syracuse who actually we found out was the individual that drove Kirsten to the airport along with Jamelske and dropped her off. The other two boys are out of state. One is a high school vice principal, the other is a college professor.

KING: Does he have a wife? WALSH: He had a wife who was living in the house up until about 1999. I believe she died in 1999. So, during about ten years of his holding people in his bunker she was in the house. However, there's no indication that she knew what was going on in the basement. She knew from time to time that he had young women down there. But we don't believe that she knew that he was actually holding them captive.

KING: And the sons, what did they say?

WALSH: Well, the same sort of things. The sons are grown men. They were out of the house during that time. They all say that, you know, their father was a very strange guy. That he had a -- he had a fascination, a fixation with younger women and he always was pursuing them. And he was strange, eccentric, very cheap.

KING: Boy. Was there a trial or did he plea?

WALSH: He pled guilty to five counts of kidnapping first degree. And that was a deal that was agreed to by all the victims, and it saved them having to...

KING: Go to court?

WALSH: To go to court and stand the rigors of a trial.

KING: We have a tape, Kirsten of you and him together. You want to explain what this is?

KIRSTEN: OK.

KING: Can we show that?

KIRSTEN: I don't remember. I'm like -- I don't even remember that. I really don't even remember.

KING: So he obviously was running a tape recorder here?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: What is he, interviewing you?

KIRSTEN: I -- I don't know. I really don't know.

KING: Is this weird to look at this?

KIRSTEN: Yes. Oh, yes.

KING: Now what's he doing?

KIRSTEN: I don't know. I don't know.

KING: Did he tape any sexual encounters to your knowledge?

KIRSTEN: Not that I know of.

KING: We'll take a break and when we come back, Dr. Robi Ludwig will join us. We'll get her thoughts and then we'll take your phone calls. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During the past week we have found another woman who was kidnapped off of Syracuse Street. She was raped and tortured in his dungeon. She was dragged into his vehicle, gagged, choked, taken to a vacant house, raped and the next day bound, gagged, blindfolded and stuffed into a cardboard box. She was dragged from the vacant house into Jamelske's car, driven to an underground bunker where she remained for nearly ten months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. With us in Los Angeles is Kirsten, kidnapped at age 14 in 1988, held captive in a dungeon, sexually assaulted for more than 2 1/2 years. She's also the mother of two children. Still with us in Los Angeles is Jennifer, now the mother of three children, right? She was kidnapped at age 26, in 2001. Held captive in the same dungeon, sexually assaulted for more than two months. In Syracuse is Sheriff Kevin Walsh, the sheriff of Onondaga County, New York. He was in charge of the dungeon rape case. And joining us now in New York is Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist who counsels survivors of sexual abuse. I bet you never had to counsel anything like this?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. This is really a very bizarre and disturbing case, yes. He's very unusual.

KING: Were you girls counseled? No psychological counseling?

JENNIFER: No.

KING: What about you?

KIRSTEN: No, I just started seeing someone about three weeks ago.

KING: Dr. Ludwig, shouldn't they have seen them immediately?

LUDWIG: Absolutely. It's so important, especially for a crime like this, that went on for so long. I'm sure the girls suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder, which is basically a feeling of not being safe in the world. There are flashbacks. A hypersensitivity to what goes on around them. Depression. Self-blame. Difficulty trusting men.

So there's a whole host of feelings and emotions that come up, and the therapeutic relationship can really help them deal with their vulnerability to stress because they will be more vulnerable to stress in their daily lives, and it will affect their choices. So talking about it, and being in therapy is a wonderful way to heal.

KING: You have family, Kirsten?

KIRSTEN: Yes. KING: Are they close to you through this?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: Have you had a relationship since this?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: You didn't have a difficulty associating with a man?

KIRSTEN: At first.

KING: What was the number one problem you had?

KIRSTEN: At first. But it was 16 years ago. So it was kind of -- it really wasn't there as much. I mean, I was young. I don't...

KING: But it had to leave scars, didn't it?

KIRSTEN: Oh, yes.

KING: What about you, Jennifer?

JENNIFER: It was rough. I mean, I -- like a couple months after I was released, I got involved in an abusive relationship.

KING: You did?

JENNIFER: Yes. And I mean I was getting the crap kicked out of me. And then until just recently, I met my son's father, and he's wonderful.

KING: You were telling us that Mr. Jamelske, hard to call him mister, burnt you with a cigarette?

JENNIFER: yes.

KING: That's why you think you got let out early?

JENNIFER: Yes. Because it had become infected, and it was really bad. Like I couldn't even move. I couldn't even stand up straight or nothing.

KING: So he let you out because he didn't want something to happen to you there?

JENNIFER: That's what I think.

KING: Dr. Ludwig, what do you make of Jennifer getting involved in an abusive relationship?

LUDWIG: Well, it doesn't surprise me. Because, she probably felt worthless at the time, blamed herself, and found men who could punish her. And that's why, you know, in therapy you can begin to explore these issues. And I don't know if that was evident in her life prior to this horrible incident going on. But therapy can really help you make sense out of it. And then where does the trauma lead you? Because people can become stronger after a traumatic experience if they work through it properly.

KING: The perpetrator, Sheriff, didn't fit normal profiles of this kind of person, right?

WALSH: No, he didn't. You know, he was a very strange individual from many respects, but just looking at his five victims, they were five different races. They were different ages, ranging from 13 up to 53. The only really thing that they had in common was that they were all women, and that they were somewhat vulnerable either because of their lifestyle, or because of the condition that he found them. So, there was no pattern as such and no indication that we had a serial rapist, a serial kidnapper in our community.

KING: We're told by -- is it your attorney that came over?

JENNIFER: Yes.

KING: That he definitely has $1 million in property, and they're going to divide that up among the five victims, right. That we know definitely. They're investigating whether there might be others. Is that correct?

JENNIFER: Yes, right.

KING: Dr. Ludwig, what do you make of the perpetrator?

LUDWIG: You know, it's so interesting when you listen to him talk, and he doesn't understand that he did something wrong, and he's keeping these women in a dungeon. He's raping them. He's putting them in chains. It appears that he has a messianic complex, a god complex. That he's all powerful, and you really look -- you can understand about the rapist if you look at the victim selection. This was a man who prior to this, you know, rape and slavery, he was going to church every day.

So I think in his head, he somehow assumed that these women were women who needed to be -- to find God. That they were women who were on the wrong path. He was going to bring them into his wonderful dungeon, and somehow beat them up until they found God, and were somehow changed. And then he would let them go. But clearly this is a man who was a sexual sadist. He got pleasure from humiliating and torturing women. And that is one thing that is for sure. But it seems like he had this idea that what he was doing was somehow positive. That these women were on the wrong track and he was going to put them on the right track.

KING: Looking at that tape, though, someone is putting two fingers in front of the camera while he's dancing. Who was doing that?

KIRSTEN: I guess it was me.

KING: Because you were the one there when he was doing that dance. KIRSTEN: Right, right.

KING: A lot of this you don't remember, right?

KIRSTEN: Right. I don't. I don't remember.

KING: They talk about the Stockholm syndrome meaning that the victim becomes associated with the person who's taken them. Did you ever feel an association with him? Were there days you liked him?

KIRSTEN: Not really. But, I mean, I guess you have to be nice to somebody that you think is going to kill you every day.

JENNIFER: Yes.

KING: So you have to be nice to him?

KIRSTEN: Yes.

KING: Did he ask you to tell him you loved him?

KIRSTEN: No. I don't...

Never that.

KING: He never asked for anything romantic in a sense?

JENNIFER: No, no. Nothing along those lines.

KING: Why the cigar on the back?

JENNIFER: Because I fought him when he was trying to have sex with me the first day. I mean, I clocked him pretty good. He hit me a couple times. But I'm a tough girl and it didn't really faze me.

KING: Sheriff, what prison is he in?

WALSH: He's at New York state prison at Clinton, Clinton Correctional. And he's doing 18 years to life. And at 69 years of age, we're hoping that we never see him out on the street again.

KING: Now, what do you say to Kirsten and Jennifer about the scars later, Dr. Ludwig? Kirsten's been out of this a long time, and now is getting psychological help.

LUDWIG: Right.

KING: Jennifer's not gotten psychological help.

LUDWIG: I would just highly recommend it. That sure, people can heal over a period of time but that it would speed up the healing process. And that they're certainly entitled to it. Because it interferes with a person's ability to feel safe in life. And of course you can never have control over everything. But you can have control over certain things. And that is if they can get through it and find meaning in it, then perhaps something good can come out of it. And it's really hard to find what good can come out of it if you're not fully healed. And it's really hard to heal without talking it through and gaining some understanding.

KING: Sheriff, one of the victims was 53 years old?

WALSH: Yes, she was.

KING: Doesn't fit the pattern, does it?

WALSH: Not at all. I think that was one of the things that the FBI profilers, when they first took a look at this case, after the arrest, were fascinated by the fact that he had children down there, and he had a mature woman. And it just didn't make sense. It didn't fit the patterns. And neither did the fact that he allowed them to see his face, and then let them go. I mean, that's just something that, you know, just normally doesn't happen.

JENNIFER: He had five different -- all of us were all of a different race. There was Kirsten who's Indian. Me who's white. A Spanish girl, Vietnamese, and the African-American. So it's five different races of women.

KING: The 53-year-old was what?

JENNIFER: Vietnamese.

KING: We'll take a break and come back and include your phone calls. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMELSKE: I'm just truly sorry for what I did. I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) time to think about it. And I am just very sorry for what I did and for how it affected everyone. And God bless all of them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMELSKE: That's why I built the dungeon. She said, this is kind of small.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you build the dungeon so you have more space?

JAMELSKE: She said, this is small. I want more room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you blame her?

JAMELSKE: Hell, no. That's why I turned earth upside down to get this place bigger.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: Was that you, Kirsten?

KIRSTEN: Mm-hmm.

KING: You wanted more space.

KIRSTEN: I don't remember. I don't remember a thing.

KING: He did it for you, Kirsten.

KIRSTEN: Yeah.

KING: The man gave you more space.

KIRSTEN: Yeah.

KING: You know. let's go to calls. Plymouth, Michigan. Hello.

CALLER: Hi. I was wondering if these survivors feel that this sadist got enough time for his crime? And I wish them the best, that they put pieces of their lives back together.

KING: Thank you. Jennifer, 18 to life fair?

JENNIFER: Yeah. Yeah. It's fair.

KING: So you didn't have to testify, right?

JENNIFER: No. No. I just wrote a victim impact statement.

KING: You think it's fair, Kirsten?

KIRSTEN: I do. Because he's older. And I don't think...

KING: He's not going to get out?

KIRSTEN: I don't think so.

KING: Sheriff, was it fair to you?

WALSH: You know, we were very pleased that we were able to get the convictions on all five of the victims. And I think it was a good deal because, first off, the girls didn't have to testify. Also, they did such a great job with the victim impact statements, that I'm thoroughly convinced that any parole board ever looking at that, should it get to that point, are -- would never let him out of jail. He's a -- he's a monster. And he is where he belongs. And he'll have the rest of his life to think about it.

KING: The part where he was crying, that's when he thought he was going to get community service, right? Dr. Ludwig, what do you think about the sentence?

LUDWIG: Well, I'm glad that he didn't try to plead insanity, because he seems like the type of person who would look like he'd want to get out of doing what he's, you know, getting the punishment that he deserves. So I'm happy that he will be in prison the rest of his life. It's where he belongs. And he's not capable of being any different.

KING: You're not saying he's sane, are you?

LUDWIG: No, I don't think he's sane at all. You know, he's sane in the legal sense. He knew what he was doing was wrong. But he finds this way to justify it in his head. His wife was sick. She was dying. It was OK to have sex with these women. And he was reading the Bible to them, so he was helping them anyway. So he has this sick, twisted justification.

KING: Alexandria, Virginia, hello.

CALLER: Yes, hi. I was wondering, how many years did he kidnap and rape women? How many years did this go on?

KING: Altogether, how many years?

JENNIFER: Fifteen.

KIRSTEN: Fifteen.

JENNIFER: Fifteen years.

KING: Fifteen. You for two and a half, and then others for like a year or two or three. And you were the least, right?

JENNIFER: Yeah, two and a half months.

KING: And then the last one, right?

JENNIFER: Yeah.

KING: And she got out how? Sheriff, how did she get out, the last one? The sister? What?

WALSH: Well, what she had done was convinced Jamelske that she was his friend, and he could take her places. And he took her out to karaoke bars. He took her to walks around the neighborhood. And when she finally was able to get to a telephone, she convinced him that she was going to look up the number for a church she wanted to call, a church that he'd actually taken her to, and she called the church, and find out when the next services were going to be. And when she made that phone call, it wasn't to the church, it was to her sister and told her sister what was going on, and then the pieces all fell together.

KING: Dr. Ludwig, very creative for someone in that circumstance, right?

LUDWIG: You know, this guy is a bright guy. And he was very clever at keeping his sexual interests secret, which is not uncommon for the sexual sadist. They find a way.

KING: But I mean that victim was clever? LUDWIG: Oh, the victim was extraordinarily clever, and brilliant. And that's ultimately what brought him down.

KING: Rice's Landing, Pennsylvania, hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Hi.

CALLER: Since one of you was reading the Bible to him, I was wondering if there are any particular scriptures that he was very interested in and might have you read more than one time?

KING: Jennifer?

JENNIFER: No. He just made me start at the beginning and read it through.

KING: Genesis?

JENNIFER: Just the Old Testament.

KING: That's Genesis.

JENNIFER: Yeah.

KING: So in the beginning.

JENNIFER: Yes.

KING: To Roachdale, Indiana, hello.

CALLER: Hi, Larry.

KING: Hi.

CALLER: Hi, ladies. My question was, did he ever use a condom?

JENNIFER: No.

KIRSTEN: I don't -- I don't believe so.

JENNIFER: Probably no. I don't know.

KING: Didn't you fear...

JENNIFER: Oh, yeah.

KING: Pregnancy?

JENNIFER: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

KING: Didn't you?

KIRSTEN: Oh, yeah.

JENNIFER: Pregnancy, HIV, everything.

KING: Did you ask him to use a condom?

JENNIFER: It wouldn't have done any good. I mean, I asked, but he was running the show. It was his game. You know.

KING: Did you ask him, Kirsten?

KIRSTEN: Yeah.

KING: And what did he say?

KIRSTEN: No.

JENNIFER: He said, oh, I don't have any diseases. I get checked all the time.

KING: How much time of the day would he spend with you? In 24 hours, how much time would he be with you?

JENNIFER: A couple of hours.

KING: A couple of hours? The rest of the time all by yourself. Nothing to read, nothing to look at? Nothing?

JENNIFER: Well, he brought a TV down for me. So I was watching cable TV.

KING: Oh, yeah?

JENNIFER: When he decided that I could.

KING: You, no?

KIRSTEN: Yeah.

KING: Nothing?

KIRSTEN: No. I had a TV, too, afterwards. It wasn't in the well. It was in the other part.

KING: We'll be back with some more phone calls on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE, right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defendant John Jamelske entered five guilty pleas to kidnapping in the first degree. The agreed-upon sentence, which will be imposed by Judge Anthony Aloi, is 18 to life. Clearly, in my judgment, today justice has been served in this rather extraordinary and despicable case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Brownsville, Tennessee, hello.

CALLER: Yes. The sheriff mentioned that one of the kidnapper's sons drove one of the victims and the kidnapper himself when they let her off at the Syracuse Airport.

KING: Right.

CALLER: Was the son convicted of an accessory or convicted of anything? Because the son had to have seen the handcuffs and the victim's head covered.

KING: Sheriff?

WALSH: No, actually. Unfortunately, it was too far beyond any statute of limitations for us to be able to do anything with that particular charge. So, no, there was no charges brought against the son. And he also claims that he didn't realize that she had been held captive. He was told that he was transporting her up there as a surprise, and she was going to take a surprise trip. That that's what his father told him, anyway.

KING: What did he make of the handcuffs?

WALSH: He claimed that there weren't any handcuffs, he never saw any handcuffs, and Kirsten couldn't confirm that for us, because she had such, you know, such little memory 12 years later, or 15 years later, of exactly what happened.

KING: Do you believe you were handcuffed, Kirsten?

KIRSTEN: I don't think I was.

KING: Salem, Virginia, hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Yeah, hi.

CALLER: OK. I wanted to ask this for Kirsten.

KING: Yeah.

CALLER: She was a troubled teen, a young woman in need of attention, I feel like. He tried to help her in giving her more space. I'm not trying to justify what he did. Were they drinking or doing drugs during the time they were being held captive?

KIRSTEN: No.

KING: You never -- no alcohol?

KIRSTEN: No.

KING: No drugs?

KIRSTEN: No drugs that I know of. KING: To Loogootee, Indiana. Hello? Loogootee, Indiana, I'm sorry.

CALLER: Oh, yeah, yeah, Larry?

KING: Yeah.

CALLER: Yeah, hi. I was just wondering how they felt about God during this whole ordeal?

KING: Jennifer?

JENNIFER: Well, God was my savior during the whole ordeal. If it wasn't for God, I wouldn't have made it through.

KING: So you -- your belief wasn't...

JENNIFER: I have a strong belief in God, yeah.

KING: Kirsten?

KIRSTEN: I feel the same way.

KING: Dr. Ludwig, how do you explain that? Since one would think they would tend to doubt God?

LUDWIG: I suppose it could go either way. But when you come through a traumatic experience, you need to believe in something. And you need to believe that there's a reason why it happened, even though it's so horrific, in order to get through it. So I think it's wonderful that they have a strong relationship to their faith and spirituality, and that can only help them.

KING: Even though, Jennifer, he's making you read the Bible, this guy who's treating you horrendously and raping you every day is making you read the Bible, one would think you might associate that with God.

JENNIFER: I didn't. Because I knew it wasn't God who was doing it. I knew it was John Jamelske. And that's one of the things I would tell Jamelske every day. I would say, you know, God is watching you, and he knows what you're doing, and one day he's going to get you. Because he knows what you're doing, and it's wrong.

KING: How do you feel when you look at him, Kirsten? When you see the tapes that we've run tonight?

KIRSTEN: It's disgusting. It disgusts me.

KING: How do you feel?

JENNIFER: Same way. It's disgusting. Like I just want to jump through the TV and just knock his lights right out.

KING: Lubbock, Texas. Hello.

CALLER: Yes. My question is for Kirsten.

KING: Yeah.

CALLER: After watching the video footage, how does she feel whenever someone doesn't actually see this, the tortured victim that, you know, she's saying she was?

KING: You mean they don't see her looking tortured? Is that your point, sir? Caller?

CALLER: Yes.

KING: Yeah.

KIRSTEN: I don't even really recall it.

KING: You don't even -- the scene in which we show you and him?

KIRSTEN: Yeah.

KING: You don't remember that?

KIRSTEN: I don't. I was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) years old.

KING: Is that fairly common, Dr. Ludwig?

I can't hear Dr. Ludwig.

Go ahead.

LUDWIG: I'm sorry. When a memory gets -- is too painful, it gets suppressed. It's like it's the body's way of healing itself. It doesn't remember things that it can't tolerate or deal with. So the fact that she looks at that video and can't remember it means it was a traumatic, horrific event in her life. And even though it may not look that way in the video, don't misunderstand that. That she was doing what she needed to do to survive, regardless of how it looked.

KING: Sheriff, I guess we could pray you'll never see another one like this.

WALSH: Well, I hope not. You know, this is a very bizarre case. He was a very strange man. And, you know, we just thank God that all of the victims made it through, and they seem to be doing fairly well now. And we hope that they're able to get the kind of treatment and help that they need to be able to succeed in life.

KING: Thank you for coming forward. Thank you, Kirsten. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Sheriff Walsh, and Dr. Robi Ludwig.

And exciting nights ahead. I'll be back to tell you about them right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Tomorrow night, we'll repeat our recent interview with President George W. Bush and Laura Bush. Then Sunday night, we're at the Garden, in New York City. You may have heard of the place. We'll host a special Sunday night live edition of LARRY KING LIVE, and then two LARRY KING LIVES every night, Monday through Thursday, at 9:00 and midnight Eastern time, from the GOP convention, just as we did in Boston a while back at the Democrats'.

Right now, our man -- he's not in outer space, although that's where he'd love to be -- Miles O'Brien is sitting in for Aaron Brown. He's going to host "NEWSNIGHT" tonight.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


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