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Lou Dobbs Tonight
More Than 1000 Americans Killed in Iraq; Cleanup Efforts Begin in Florida
Aired September 07, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the videotape of the horror of the radical Islamist school hostage seize in Russia. Hundreds of hostages, many of them children, were killed. We'll have the report.
A grim milestone in the war in Iraq. More than 1,000 American troops have lost their lives since the beginning of the war. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld insists the United States is winning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: This is a global struggle between extremists and people who want to be left alone to live free lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Reforming our intelligence agencies. Senators Joe Lieberman and John McCain launch a bipartisan effort to implement all the recommendations of the September 11 commission.
Exporting America. Tonight, we go to one American community that's about to lose its biggest employer and 1,600 jobs to Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How we going to handle the middle class in this country if we have corporations like Maytag that are more loyal to the American dollar than they are to the American flag?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The president of the AFL-CIO, John Sweeney, joins me to discuss the battle to stop the exporting of America. I'll also be joined by author Todd Buchholtz who blames the left for the crisis in outsourcing.
And the massive cleanup operation in Florida after Hurricane Frances. Thousands of people return home to find their houses destroyed. FEMA Director Michael Brown is our guest.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, September 7. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, gruesome and horrific images from inside the school in Russia where radical Islamist terrorists slaughtered hundreds of children and adults. The shocking videotape that you are about to see shows the terrorists preparing bombs as children and their parents cower in fear.
And, in Moscow today, at least 100,000 people protested against the terrorists, this the largest public demonstration since the fall of communism in Russia.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The tapes are horrifying. In this video taken by a terrorist inside the school, hundreds of hostages, women and children, packed together, cowering in fear, hands behind backs and heads. Armed and masked gunmen wiring the gym with explosives. Some explosive devices dangling from the school basketball net.
President Putin said Russian security forces intercepted a walkie-talkie communication from inside the building. One terrorist saying, "What are you doing? I hear some noise. What's going on?" The reply, "I'm just in the middle of shooting some children." "They were bored," said Putin, "so they shot children."
A day of mourning in Moscow. Thousands and thousands of Russians demonstrated at the Kremlin, stunned and sad. The demonstrations quiet, the country speechless with grief. This week, the newspaper "Isvestia" ran a wordless photo.
At the scene of the carnage, residents of Beslan have been able to walk through the charred shell of the building, still strewn with clothing and blood.
In Beslan, the town had to make another cemetery. The usual one, too small to accommodate the dead.
President Putin is under criticism in his own country for how the crisis was handled. There are indications he has quelled press reports that question his decision to storm the school.
DIMITRI SIMES, PRESIDENT, THE NIXON CENTER: One would expect that there would be some kind of plan, how to deal with this calamity, and yet the Russian government proved to be unprepared. They were reacting rather than acting, and Putin is being criticized for that.
PILGRIM: Putin has also lashed out at the United States, saying mid-level officials in the U.S. government had been meeting with Chechen separatists. In a London newspaper this week, Putin rejected criticism of his refusal to talk to Chechen terrorists, saying, "Why don't you meet with Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants, give it to him so he leaves you in peace. Why don't you do that?"
(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: Now the State Department today denied any meetings with Chechen political figures or separatists, saying "The United States has met with people from Chechnya who had differing points of view, including points of view that differ from the Russian government, but we don't meet with terrorists and we don't meet with people who are involved in violence" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, frankly, that sounds like artifice and a neat distinction in terms, doesn't it, on the part of the State Department?
PILGRIM: It seems like a fairly accurate statement in that there is a policy not to meet with confirmed terrorists, and so it seems fairly accurate.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
A terrible tragedy in Russia, and Russia, like the United States, and the rest of the civilized world facing stark choices in the days and weeks ahead.
Thank you very much.
Turning now to Iraq, insurgents today killed three more American troops in a day of fierce fighting near Baghdad. Today, the number of American troops killed in Iraq rose above 1,000.
Walter Rodgers reports from Baghdad now.
Walt, let me first ask you has both the intensity and the frequency of attacks against American troops risen lately?
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It does seem so, Lou, and, as you look at the situation, this is not the kind of day an incumbent president like Mr. Bush would like to have, saddled as he is -- running for reelection, saddled with an increasingly unpopular war.
The headline: U.S. fatalities -- combat and other deaths -- in Iraq in the last 17 months is now above 1,000. That's not a statistic. Those are husbands, fathers, brothers, sons, daughters and sisters.
Two weeks ago, the U.S. thought it had demoralized, if not decimated, the Shiite army known as the Medhi Army of Muqtada al Sadr.
Again, within the last 24 hours, U.S. forces, the 1st Armored Cavalry soldiers, were fighting the Medhi Army of Muqtada al Sadr again, this time not in Najaf, but here in Baghdad in the northeastern suburb of Sadr City. Those were running gun battles. U.S. tanks and armored vehicles against Iraqis, Shiite rebels, running at them, firing rocket-propelled grenades from their shoulders. Again, the casualties have been very bad.
But one thing, very bad news for President Bush and the United States, there is that militia out -- still out there, the Medhi Army, and they are tackling the Americans at almost every twist and turn certainly at will. At least 25 Iraqis were killed.
Earlier today, the military here in Baghdad released the American combat deaths for the past few months. Listen to this: 52 Americans killed in August, 39 killed in July, 36 killed in June and 56 killed in May. Those are combat deaths for the last several months here.
There was also bad news for the Italians today. Two Italian aide workers in a Baghdad hospital trying to help Baghdad civilians. Twenty-nine-year-old girls kidnapped -- kidnapped -- by men posing as Iraqi National Guardsmen. No one knows the fate of these young Italian women. All we know is that they have been kidnapped for trying to help Iraqis, Iraqi civilians in a hospital.
And tonight in Baghdad, even more devastating news. Baghdad is supposed to be safe, yet a major police station in the heart of the city was overrun by insurgents. One police officer was killed, two others critically wounded, eight others wounded. The Iraqi insurgents then let all the prisoners out of jail and escaped, and the U.S. had to come in and -- U.S. forces had to come in and reseize that jail -- Lou.
DOBBS: Walt, thank you very much.
Walter Rodgers reporting live from Baghdad.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today declared that the United States is winning the global war against terror. Tonight, Pentagon sources say there is a new plan to move against insurgent strongholds, such as Fallujah, where U.S. troops are not even permitted to enter.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The suicide bombing that claimed the lives of seven Marines Monday was part of a spike in U.S. casualties that has pushed the number of U.S. military dead in Iraq over 1,000, and the number of wounded close to 7,000.
But the Pentagon insists in almost every clash with the insurgents, such as Tuesday's fighting in the Baghdad slum of Sadr City, the U.S. is inflicting far heavier casualties on its enemies, killing as many as 2,500 insurgents in the last month alone.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS: This is a pattern across Iraq. The more aggressive the tactics of the insurgency, the greater their loss of human life.
MCINTYRE: U.S. warplanes continue to pound Fallujah, the biggest of the enemy enclaves from which some U.S. commanders believe suspected terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi may be directing elements of the insurgency.
Pentagon sources tell CNN that a joint U.S.-Iraqi plan is in the works to launch a series of offensives aimed at eliminating so-called no-go zones across Iraq, areas where the U.S. chooses not to patrol and the Iraqi government does not control.
But fearing that a heavy-handed U.S. offensive could make more enemies out of ordinary Iraqis, the strategy is to wait until the interim Iraqi government has enough forces to pacify what for now have become safe havens for insurgents.
RUMSFELD: For their country to succeed, they simply cannot over a sustained period of time have areas that are under the control of people who are violently opposed to that government. They get it, and they will find a way over time to deal with it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The problem is that plan relies on Iraqi security forces, and, today, the Pentagon admitted that of the 200,000 security forces, only about 95,000 have rudimentary training and equipment, and none of those are battle tested. With Iraqi elections set for January, U.S. commanders warn that time is running out to re-establish the rule of law in Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, it is very unclear at this point, at least as I assess it, what the U.S. policy is, the dealings, the negotiations with Muqtada al Sadr, supposedly removing the Medhi Army from confrontation with U.S. and Iraqi forces, but no-go cities, as you pointed out, whether Fallujah, Ramallah, the fact of the matter is the U.S. policy is very unclear here. Can you help us out on that issue?
MCINTYRE: Well, the Pentagon insists that these no-go areas are not places they can't go. They're places they decided not to go because they think it's counterproductive.
I've talked to some military officials today who made the point that they believe that the U.S. has the brute force to go in and pacify some of these places. But they're just afraid that that kind of solution won't work out in the long term because it will just create more enemies among the Iraqi people.
So they're really working on this plan to get the Iraqis out in front and deal with this problem over the next couple of months because they believe in the long term that will be better off, even though in the short term it means the U.S. is still taking attacks from some of these places.
DOBBS: Taking attacks and taking casualties, Jamie, as you well know and as you report here often. The fact is that the number of Americans killed each month has risen over the past three months, the frequency of attacks is rising.
Is the Pentagon saying what its response will be to obviously what is a worsening situation in terms of at least risk to the lives and the well-being of American troops?
MCINTYRE: Well, when we questioned the Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers about this today, he was very circumspect, and he made the point of saying just a little bit and then saying that to say any more would compromise operational details. Now, when he says that, the subtext there is that there are operational details, there are plans in the works that they don't want to talk about. How effective they'll be, we'll just have to see.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon where today it was announced that more than 1,000 Americans have been killed in Iraq, 7,000 wounded.
The rising number of American deaths in Iraq doesn't appear to be undermining, however, the will of American voters to stay the course in this war. A CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows 58 percent of Americans saying that the United States should not change its policy in Iraq. Thirty-seven percent say the United States should intensify its efforts to withdraw. That poll conducted at the end of last month.
On Capitol Hill today, two leading senators launched a new effort trying to implement all of the intelligence reforms proposed by the September 11 commission. Senator John McCain and Senator Joe Lieberman said their bill will create a new national intelligence director and strengthen border and transportation security. The two senators launched the legislative effort on the day Congress returned from its summer vacation.
National Security Correspondent David Ensor reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The legislation has heavyweight co-sponsors, Republican and Democrat. It implements the 41 recommendations of the 9/11 commission, including creating a national intelligence director with real power.
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: If we reorganize and reform the enormous human and technological intelligence assets America has as the commission has recommended, we will be able to see, hear and stop the terrorist attacks against us before they occur.
ENSOR: Less than a month remains on the legislative calendar before the November elections, but the bill has the 9/11 commission's support and the clout of victims' families behind it. The pressure to vote soon on the bill -- or something like it -- is intense.
THOMAS KEAN, FORMER CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: God forbid, you know, something happens again, and we're six months from now, and recommendations that could have made the American people safer have not been implemented.
ENSOR: But the proposal strips power from the Pentagon, over 80 percent of the intelligence community budget, and it places the nation's top intelligence director outside of the Central Intelligence Agency, against the advice of some former CIA directors.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I think we have one chance to do this, one moment in time, and we had better get it right. It would be worse to rush and get it wrong.
ENSOR: The bill also creates a national counterterrorism center, increases aid to Afghanistan and Pakistan, and sets new federal standards for states on driver's licenses and birth certificates, making them harder for terrorists to forge.
At a White House meeting Wednesday morning, congressional leaders may hear from the president what post-9/11 reforms he favors. Is he willing to strip budget power over the National Security Agency and other spy agencies, from the secretary of defense?
SEN. JOHN ROCKEFELLER (D), VICE CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: My concern is whether or not he has the will or the determination or the knowledge of the issue to stand up to the vice president and to Don Rumsfeld. Those are two very formidable people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: But this is also an election year. The president's Democratic challenger John Kerry has made clear that if the 9/11 commission proposals are watered down by the White House, he may seek to make that a campaign issue -- Lou.
DOBBS: And he has support as well from the highly regarded chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Pat Roberts.
David Ensor, thank you.
Still ahead here tonight, shock and tears in Florida as homeowners survey the devastation left by Hurricane Frances. The director of FEMA, Michael Brown, is our guest.
President Bush and Senator Kerry on the campaign trail using sharp language. Their running mates also escalating their attacks. We'll have the report.
And in Exporting America tonight, one community pays a high price as its biggest employer simply ships hundreds of jobs abroad. Tonight, I'll talk with two guests with sharply different views on the causes of Exporting America and possible solutions to what is nothing less than an outsourcing crisis.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hurricane Frances has all but dissipated, gone from Florida, but almost the entire State of Florida is still suffering from the impact of Frances. More than a dozen deaths in the Southeastern United States are being blamed now on the storm.
Residents of Florida returning home to destruction, shortages of gas, ice and water. Millions in Florida are still without power tonight, and officials there say power won't be fully restored for a week in some parts. President Bush is set to travel to Florida tomorrow. He will be going there to survey the damage. Joining me is Michael Brown. He's the director of Federal Emergency Management Agency joining us tonight appropriately enough from the National Hurricane Center in Miami.
Director Brown, good to have you with us.
MICHAEL BROWN, DIRECTOR, FEMA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's begin first with the amount of damage there and the number of people that are without water, without electricity tonight.
BROWN: Well, Lou, it's a pretty miserable situation. My-- you know, my heart really goes out to these folks. What FEMA has done -- we've put together all the resources from the Department of Homeland Security. We have literally tons of water, tons of ice, hundreds of thousands of meals moving into communities as you and I speak to help these people at least get some comfort until they get their feet back on the ground.
DOBBS: Now what assistance is FEMA bringing to bear directly?
BROWN: Well, Lou, we're focused on two primary actions right now -- lifesaving and life sustaining. We need to make certain we get the message out that, even though Hurricane Frances and Charley have now moved on, it's still a dangerous situation with floodwaters, downed power lines, no electrical current. I mean, it's just a very dangerous situation.
And then life sustaining -- we still have thousands of people in shelters, special-needs shelters. We've got to get food, water, ice, a place to sleep, and some -- just some basic comforts to these folks so they can start getting registered to get the aid, get them in temporary housing and that sort of thing that FEMA does in every disaster.
DOBBS: And the hardest hit parts of Florida in your assessment?
BROWN: Well, Lou, there are a couple of areas in the state, particularly the middle, DeSoto County, Hardee County, a lot of these areas where three weeks ago Hurricane Charley moved through very rapidly with very destructive winds, almost like tornadoes in some areas.
And then three weeks later, just as they're beginning to recover, Hurricane Frances moves through, and what Frances does, which was so frustrating to all of us, she moved inland and then she just barely crawled across the state. So people were inundated with rain.
We couldn't get in. I kept saying as soon as Frances moves two feet, we'll move two feet. But these people got a double whammy, one three weeks ago and then one just the past couple of days.
DOBBS: Your best estimate of the total damage in dollars and cents to Florida? I know it's very early. You're just beginning to fully assess all of the damage. Is there an estimate that you find reliable? BROWN: There really isn't yet, Lou, and I just put it in perspective. The president obviously went to Congress today and requested $2 billion supplement for FEMA, primarily for our response and recovery efforts just for Hurricane Charley. The president will go back later for a supplemental for Hurricane Frances.
So you can see we're talking an excess of probably $4 billion or $5 billion, and that's not counting the economic damage. That's not counting the damage to businesses and others as they try to rebuild here in Florida.
DOBBS: Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
We thank you very much for being with us.
BROWN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Still ahead here, new attacks on the campaign trail. Both presidential candidates blasting each other on the economy and Iraq. A third has not elevated the intensity of his. Of course independent candidate Ralph Nader. We'll have the latest for you from the Republicans and Democrats on the campaign trail.
Exporting America tonight. Hundreds more Americans soon to lose their jobs to cheap labor, this time in Mexico, and this outsourcing, this exporting of America devastates a Midwestern town. We'll have that special report.
And the author of a new book says the exporting of America is a crisis created not by corporate America, but by the left. Todd Buchholz, author of "Bringing the Jobs Home," is my guest. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues with more news, debate and opinion. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: On the campaign trail today, fighting words hurled by the vice presidential candidates. Vice President Cheney said electing the Democrats could put the nation at risk of another terrorist attack, and that prompted an angry response from Senator John Edwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today on November 2 we make the right choice because, if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again, that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mindset, if you will, that, in fact, these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts and that we're not really at war. SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Dick Cheney's scare tactics today crossed the line. What he said to the American people was if you go to the polls in November and elect anyone other than us, then -- and another terrorist attack occurs, it's your fault.
This is un-American. The truth is it proves once again that they'll do anything and say anything to keep their jobs. Protecting the American people from terrorist attacks and from vicious terrorists is not a Republican issue and it's not a Democratic issue, it's an American issue, and George Bush and Dick Cheney should know that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: President Bush, for his part, campaigning in Missouri for a second straight day and opening a new line of attack against Senator John Kerry. President Bush blasted Senator Kerry for calling Iraq "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time." President Bush said Senator Kerry is beginning to sound like one of his former rivals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He woke up yesterday morning with yet another new position, and this one is not even his own. It is that of his one-time rival Howard Dean. He even used the same words Howard Dean did back when he supposedly disagreed with him. No matter how many times Senator Kerry flip flops, we were right to make America safer by removing Saddam Hussein from power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Kerry today centered his attacks against President Bush's handling of the economy and the roughly one million jobs lost since President Bush took office. The Democratic presidential candidate said the president has encouraged the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.
Ed Henry has the report from Greensboro, North Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Kerry visited the textile state of North Carolina as his campaign opened a new line of attack against President Bush, calling him the outsourcer in chief.
SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: George Bush's wrong choices were continuing to ship jobs overseas, jobs that have good wages and good benefits, and all across America companies have been shutting their doors, downsizing the benefits to employees.
HENRY: Kerry's need for a push on pocketbook issues is clear in a new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll. While the president has double- digit leads on the question of who would do a better job handling terror and Iraq, Kerry has a 3-point edge on the economy. The senator charged that the loss of 2.7 million manufacturing jobs on Bush's watch is due in part to the president's support of a decades-old provision that allows U.S. companies that operate overseas to defer paying taxes on those earnings.
KERRY: Bush actually thinks it's a good idea.
HENRY: Kerry outlined a plan to close the outsourcing loophole and still cut taxes for 99 percent of U.S. companies. Bush campaign officials strongly defend the president's record and say the Kerry plan will do virtually nothing to stop the flow of U.S. jobs overseas.
TIM ADAMS, BUSH CAMPAIGN POLICY DIRECTOR: Kerry's own advisers say that his proposals won't work and this stands in stark contrast to the president's proposals which will address outsourcing and will address job creation and keeping jobs here.
HENRY: The Bush campaign all notes that when Kerry recently released a list of top business supporters, it included 40 outsourcers.
(on camera): John Kerry is here in North Carolina because Democrats have high hopes of carrying the swing state, especially with John Edwards on the ticket. Republicans scoff and say it's a matter of time before Democrats write this staff off and focus even more resources on places like Ohio where John Kerry is headed once again tonight.
Ed Henry, CNN, Greensboro, North Carolina.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tonight we focus on one community that is feeling the very real pain of exporting America. We first brought you the story of Galesburg, Illinois, in January when we reported to you that Maytag planned to close its factory there and to export 1,600 jobs to Mexico.
Now, that plant will close in just two weeks and the people of the community are demanding answers. Peter Viles reports from Galesburg, Illinois.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Labor Day rally in America's heartland, black humor. "My Job Went Overseas, All I Got Was This T-Shirt."
LT. GOV. PAT QUINN (D), ILLINOIS: Well, How are we going to have a middle class in this country if we have corporations like Maytag that are more loyal to the American dollar than they are to the American flag and the American worker?
VILES: In two weeks Maytag will shut down its giant plant here, a new plant will open in Mexico, 1,600 American jobs will disappear. And you bet there's anger here. Anger at NAFTA, at the Bush White House, at corporate America and especially at Maytag's CEO Ralph Hake. TOM BUFFENBARGER, IAM PRESIDENT: Maybe we can haul Ralph Hake's sorry ass before a congressional hearing some day and ask him to explain why this is good for America. I'd love to hear what he has to say.
VILES: It turns out a United States senator had already asked him.
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Why are you doing this, I said? Well, he said, all the companies are moving production overseas. And I asked him a basic question. Where do you sell your refrigerators? Well, he said, in the United States of America. And I said, well, let me ask you, doesn't it stand to reason that if you want American consumers to buy your products you might show some loyalty to those consumers and their families?
VILES: In a statement, Maytag told CNN, "our outsourcing is minimal when compared to the other major appliance companies. Ninety percent of our employees are in the United States." Maytag also said, "there are times when economically we have to make the decision to source some products out."
BARRACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS STATE SENATE: Anybody who says that we can reverse the tide overnight is not telling the truth. Because it took us 20 years to get in this hole. It's going to take us 20 years to get out. But it starts right here. And it starts right now. And it starts with us.
DAVE BREVARD, IAM LOCAL 2067: We say that if you want to see working people who are survivors, working people who care and fight for theirs and their children's future with guts, courage, integrity and pride, you don't have to open any damn history book, you come right here to Galesburg, Illinois and you'll find a Grade A workforce.
VILES (on camera): Now there is a lot of anger in this community but there's also a lot of pride. One worker who's been here 15 years told me that when she leaves this plant for the final time in two weeks, she'll walk out with her head held high because she's proud of the work she's done for Maytag.
Peter Viles, CNN, Galesburg, Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: My next guest says it is not the greed of corporate America but rather the policies of left-leaning politicians that have made this country less competitive and encouraged outsourcing. Todd Buchholz is the author of the new book, "Bringing the Jobs Home. How the Left Created the Outsourcing Crisis & How We Can Fix It."
He also served as economic policy adviser to President George Herbert Walker Bush. Todd joins us tonight from San Diego, California. Todd, good to have you with us.
TODD BUCHHOLZ, AUTHOR, "BRINGING THE JOBS HOME": Thanks. Thanks for having me, Lou. DOBBS: Let's go counterintuitive. How did the left create the outsourcing of jobs by corporate America?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, you know, blaming CEOs for outsourcing, I think, is a little bit like Tiger Woods blaming the golf ball for losing to Vijay Singh. CEOs...
DOBBS: I would agree that many cases, Todd, they have about the same inertia. But I'm sure that's not your point.
BUCHHOLZ: No. The point -- we have to look at the American workforce and ask, why is it that corporations are looking at American workers and saying they're not the right people for the job? And in "Bringing The Jobs Home," I cite the deficiencies in the education system, the rampant litigation crisis, the excessive credentialism and the entitlement programs that are going to be blowing up in the next 20 years. No CEO wants to be caught footing the bill for those when they do explode.
DOBBS: What does a CEO, Todd, in your judgment want to be caught footing the bill for? Because this country provides their basic corporate charter, provides them the richest consumer market in the world and provides them the opportunity to have an enterprise in the first place. Just exactly what should a CEO be encumbered by?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, a CEO should at least be aware or have some kind of assurance of what the liabilities will be down the road. We have, as I said, a Medicare and Social Security system that could saddle the corporation with billions -- with bankruptcy-level judgments against them. We saw, for instance, in the asbestos lawsuit cases. You have companies that never had much to do with asbestos at all and find themselves having to go out of business or as Joseph Stiglitz said, a Nobel Laureate economist who actually worked in the Clinton administration calculated we've lost 600,000 jobs because of liabilities that CEOs never imagined they'd have to confront.
DOBBS: I think that is an actually -- a very fair assessment. But in terms of the regulations that CEOs confront and you hear CEOs, when talking about outsourcing American jobs, middle class jobs to India, to The Philippines, to China, Romania, you hear them talking about productivity and efficiency and competitiveness. And you address part of this in your book. But the fact is, those are just code words for cheap labor.
Do you believe, and I know that you've looked at this seriously from the cost, the burden on corporate America, do you really believe that corporate America and policy makers in Washington, Democrat and Republican, have a right to put the American middle class in direct competition with Third World labor to produce the same products and services that they're creating right here in this country?
BUCHHOLZ: See, I don't think it's about cheap labor. It's about productivity. When you see companies that, for instance, outsource SEC functions, security and exchange functions in the Philippines, the pass rate on the Series 7 exam is 80 percent compared to just 50 percent in the U.S. CEOs have to ask themselves, are we going to be interested in giving our customers the right answers or not?
DOBBS: So you see it as a question of education and capability of the American worker then?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, that's right. I think it's -- I think our education system is kind of like Ford Pintos from the 1970s. They're underpowered, underperforming and now under threat from foreigners.
DOBBS: And just how in the world would be laying off American middle class workers who provide taxes because after all, people pay taxes, not corporations, right, Todd? Isn't that part of the mantra in this entire context? If those people don't have jobs and they continue to watch their jobs descend down a payscale, how in the world are they going to provide the taxes to improve education? How in the world are they going to be able to support their communities and provide the services necessary?
BUCHHOLZ: Lou, if we try to insulate our economy from competition, to put ourselves in some kind of lock box -- remember the rust buckets that General Motors was selling in the 1970s until they had to confront Japanese competition. Now it turns out that finally, 30 years later, American car companies are producing products that are world class. That's a good thing. It means the consumers are not paying thousands of dollars each year to fix their rust buckets as they had to in the 1970s and the 1980s.
DOBBS: So it doesn't concern you at all that American car makers have only half of the richest car market in all the world, half of the largest consumer market in the world?
BUCHHOLZ: It concerns me, Lou, but let me tell you. If we are going to rest our economy on the good intentions, or the patriotism of corporate managers, I'm afraid depending on, as Tennessee Williams said, the kindness of strangers to maintain our standard of living, that's not going to do it. We have to be realistic and we have to understand that motivations are the profit motive. And we have to figure out how to harness that to our favor instead of ignoring it and putting ourselves in a lock box against competition.
DOBBS: The lock box is really where the American worker is trying to be put by corporate America. If outsourcing is so good, why isn't it we haven't heard one single CEO outsourcing his or her job overseas?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, I didn't say outsourcing was a good thing. To me, and I am not one of those free market knee jerkers who like Bobby McFerrin sing, don't worry, be happy. To me, outsourcing is a symptom that we have pathologies in our economic system that we must solve. I don't think it's a sign that everything is going great. It's a sign we better change our ways.
DOBBS: And we better change them quickly, if I may add, Todd, because a lot of people are feeling a lot of pain as you know in this country.
Todd Buchholz, we thank you for being here. I hope you'll come back because this is a very important issue that you're dealing with, that we deal with here on this broadcast. Come back soon.
BUCHHOLZ: Thanks, Lou, appreciate it.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question is, "do you believe the interests of the American middle class are being well represented by our Congress, the House, and the Senate, of course. Yes or no?" Please cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll be bringing you results a little later.
Coming up next your thoughts on "Exporting America." Also ahead I'll be joined by John Sweeney, the president of the AFL-CIO who says rewarding companies for exporting American jobs is a slap in the face to working Americans. He's our guest.
And a new book says Republicans and Democrats in Washington are both guilty of bankrupting America. Joe Scarborough, author of "Rome Wasn't Burned in a Day" joins me coming across the river from MSNBC. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says President Bush has turned his back on working men and women in this country. That is not a surprising view coming from the head of the AFL-CIO. AFL-CIO President John Sweeney spent his Labor Day campaigning with vice presidential candidate Senator John Edwards. Sweeney says the Kerry-Edwards ticket offers hopes to Americans whose jobs have been shipped to cheap foreign labor markets. John Sweeney joins me now from Washington, D.C.
John, it is good to have you here.
JOHN SWEENEY, PRESIDENT, AFL-CIO: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: I think it's appropriate to wish you, as the head of the AFL-CIO, a very happy Labor Day week, if I may.
SWEENEY: Thank you. And congratulations on your new book "Exporting America."
DOBBS: Well, thank you very much, John. Let me ask you this, your support for the Kerry-Edwards campaign is based on your concern about working men and women in this country. Have you heard Senator Kerry or Senator Edwards lay out a plan that says the Democratic Party is going to return to its roots and represent working men and women in this country? Because, frankly, I have not.
SWEENEY: I heard it over the weekend. I was with John Kerry in Akron, Ohio, on Saturday and I was with John Edwards yesterday in Minneapolis-St. Paul. And in both of those events I heard a lot of talk about job creation and about turning America around and hope for a working family agenda.
DOBBS: The working family agenda, I was talking with Todd Buchholz just moments ago, talking about the importance of education, trying to get litigation under control so that we can remove some of the burdens on corporate America.
But the fact is, this is, after all, about cheap labor, and finding that labor to compete with the middle class in this country. What can the AFL-CIO what can, in this case, the Kerry-Edwards ticket do to stop that kind of blunt, simple policy that makes American jobs expendable in favor of cheap foreign labor?
SWEENEY: Well, I think that the burdens that you refer to do have to be addressed. But I think there has to be an overall ambitious job development program. And it includes tax reform and closing the loopholes on those corporations that are shipping our jobs overseas.
But it also includes tax incentives for businesses that want to stay here in the United States. But education and training, upscaling are all important factors that have to be a part of a job development program. And we haven't been seeing this for the past three-and-a- half years.
DOBBS: We have not seen a sufficient number of jobs created, without question, certainly not on a historical level, falling well short of it. We just also heard, however, a candidate -- a Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama, saying that it didn't take 20 years to create the problem of outsourcing -- that it did take 20 years. And it will take 20 years to resolve it. To my ear, that sounds horrible. It's like no solution at all. We have to deal with these issues relatively quickly, do we not?
SWEENEY: We sure do. There is a jobs crisis in our country and it is continuing to get worse. As we've seen from some of the most recent experiences with Maytag being one of them. These are very productive workers who are proud of what they do and what they have done and contributed to the success of companies and we have to find a way to have a strong job development program.
DOBBS: And you're union. Other unions across the country, what are your plans to provide greater momentum for the preservation of middle class jobs in this country, greater momentum for the creation of those jobs?
SWEENEY: Well, we have been really advocating policy changes, and we have been trying to -- even with the Bush administration, trying to get more resources for labor management programs that would include training and restructuring in the workforce. But the response has not been favorable, especially over the past four years.
DOBBS: John Sweeney, the head of the AFL-CIO, as always, good talking with you.
SWEENEY: Thanks, Lou. Nice to be with you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, my next guest says politicians, bureaucrats and Washington barbarians are bankrupting this country. Former congressman of Florida, author of "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day", the fellow who inhabits "SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY" over on MSNBC joins me next here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough says when it comes to wasting your tax dollars, there's not a dime's worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats. He is the author of a new book titled "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day: The Real Deal on How Politicians, Bureaucrats & Other Washington Barbarians Are Bankrupting America." Joe Scarborough joins me now.
Joe, good to have you.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: It's great to be here, Lou.
DOBBS: Terrific read. Not a dime's difference between Democrats and Republicans. I have to say that that sort of resonates to my ear.
SCARBOROUGH: That's tough. Back in -- and I talk about this in the book, back in 1995 when I was holding town hall meetings all over the place, I'd go there and I'd say, we're going to change Washington. We're going to change the culture of Washington. We're going to balance the budget. We're going to pay down the debt. We're going to reform the way things are done there.
DOBBS: And those term limits.
SCARBOROUGH: And term limits. And people would stand up and say, basically, there's not a dime's worth of difference. And it would enrage me. I was like, how dare you say that?
So here we are 10 years later. When I got into Congress we had a $4 trillion national debt. Now we have got a $7.5 trillion debt. Today the Congressional Budget Office announces we've got the biggest deficits in the history of America, $430 billion, $440 billion. We are in big trouble economically in this country.
DOBBS: We're in big trouble. You point it out. But I was struck by the fact, you are a member of the 104th Congress, the Gingrich revolution, if you will. But the fact is, the Clinton administration, and budget balancing act of 1993, with the vote by Vice President Gore, are the ones who get tremendous credit for leading us to a balanced budget in this country.
Didn't last long, but primarily because of a Republican administration. Now admittedly the exigencies of September 11th, the recession of 2001 and a war on terror.
SCARBOROUGH: But we've got Democrats, the big spenders, balancing budgets and we got the Republicans setting up spending 10.5 percent a year.
It's the craziest thing in the world. When I started researching this book I looked at the president's number, I looked at Congress' number. And what I found was that over the past three, four years, spending under this administration has grown at 10.5 percent. That's more about Congress than the president. But still, the president -- here's the president's biggest problem, not a single veto. Hasn't vetoed a single bill. Under Bill Clinton...
DOBBS: He's just a get-along, go-along kind of guy.
SCARBOROUGH: I guess. Under Bill Clinton, the guy we all despised. The guy that I couldn't even watch on TV in the early '90s because he made me so angry. The guy when people ask me why I was running for Congress, I'd say Bill Clinton. Under Bill Clinton and the Republican Congress, spending grew at 3.4 percent. Now, a lot of Republicans come up to me and say, yes, Joe, but you know, there was September 11th. Sure there was.
But, Cato, Heritage Foundation, all those conservative think tanks have done these studies that show that domestic spending, forget about 9/11, forget about homeland security, forget about Iraq, Afghanistan. Domestic spending has grown at a faster clip than any other time since the great society. In fact...
DOBBS: So what makes you a Republican, than, a conservative. If there's not a dimes bit of difference between a Republican and Democrat, and both in my opinion are as equally beholden to corporate America -- corporate America's interest.
SCARBOROUGH: Right.
DOBBS: How do you declare yourself conservative?
What makes you a conservative or Republican?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, because I am a Reagan Republican. I believe like Ronald Reagan and like Jefferson said, the government that governs least governs best. I think what we have right now is a problem...
DOBBS: People would say government in all forms is governing poorly, I don't know if that's least.
SCARBOROUGH: It is governing poorly. But I think, the biggest problem has been this. This Republican Congress came in wanted to change the world, wanted to balance the budget, wanted to do all these great things. And as you know, these guys are great on the outside, but once they get inside, once they become powerful, once they're in charge, all they're concerned about is staying in power.
All these ideologues that came in with me, that's really what this book's about. This is not about numbers. It's about how the system corrupts people. They decided they would rather, instead of being the barbarians at the gate, they wanted to be the imperial guards.
DOBBS: Palace guards, as you put it.
SCARBOROUGH: Palace guards, right.
DOBBS: You also make another reference that I found interesting in the book to the idea of revolution within the society.
SCARBOROUGH: Peaceful.
DOBBS: A peaceful revolution, I should say. Do you think there is a capacity for people to gain, the middle class in particular, representation again in Congress, and 1600 Pennsylvania?
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. It happened in 1994. And in 1994 you had lot of guys -- middle class guys like me, never been elected to anything. We got elected, made a difference. It can happen again.
DOBBS: "Rome Wasn't Burned in a Day." Maybe we can get that representation back in a day or two.
Joe Scarborough, thank you very much, appreciate it.
SCARBOROUGH: Thanks a lot, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, we'll hear some of "Your Thoughts" on the "Exporting of America."
And reminder to check our Web site for the complete listing of companies, now more than 1000, we've confirmed to be "Exporting America."
Cnn.com/lou will continue in a moment, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A good day for the investor class, that's most of us. The Dow gained nearly 83 points, the Nasdaq rose 14, the S&P up 8. Taking a look now at some of your thoughts on "Exporting America."
Barbara Hamilton Cerny of Atlanta, Georgia, "Lou, I don't think our leaders realize all of effects of outsourcing. A higher bottom line and an additional bonus for the CEO is not valuable to future generations. Not only are we losing jobs, we are losing our skills. What god is an MBA or bachelor's degree if the skill can't be used by Americans?"
Keith Shook in San Juan Capistrano, California, "The lower cost of goods from China will not offset the lower paying jobs Americans will have to accept to stay employed. IN the end our standard of living will decline."
And Michael Waldrop of Kansas City, Missouri, "I'm just curious, were the workers in India and China with outsourced American jobs able to celebrate Labor Day?"
We love hearing from you. Send us "Your Thoughts" at loudobbs@cnn.com. Please send us your name and address because we're also sending each you who's e-mail is read on this broadcast a copy of my new book, "Exporting America."
Still ahead the results of "Tonight's Poll." And we'll give you a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
The results now of our poll. And it is an overwhelming result. We haven't seen this kind of result in a long time to any of our polls. Ninety-nine percent of you, say you do not believe the interest of the American middle class are well represented in the U.S. Congress.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow.
In "Face Off," a debate on a state government contract. We will bring foreigners into this country to upgrade of all things, a states unemployment system. We'll hear sharply different views from the Nebraska commission of labor who signed that contract, and one state senator who is leading the fight against it.
And imagine a California with no Mexicans. A new film taking comic look, but a profound look at what it would do to the state. The creator's of "A Day Without a Mexican" will be here with me tomorrow. Please be with us.
For all us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired September 7, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, the videotape of the horror of the radical Islamist school hostage seize in Russia. Hundreds of hostages, many of them children, were killed. We'll have the report.
A grim milestone in the war in Iraq. More than 1,000 American troops have lost their lives since the beginning of the war. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld insists the United States is winning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: This is a global struggle between extremists and people who want to be left alone to live free lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Reforming our intelligence agencies. Senators Joe Lieberman and John McCain launch a bipartisan effort to implement all the recommendations of the September 11 commission.
Exporting America. Tonight, we go to one American community that's about to lose its biggest employer and 1,600 jobs to Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How we going to handle the middle class in this country if we have corporations like Maytag that are more loyal to the American dollar than they are to the American flag?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The president of the AFL-CIO, John Sweeney, joins me to discuss the battle to stop the exporting of America. I'll also be joined by author Todd Buchholtz who blames the left for the crisis in outsourcing.
And the massive cleanup operation in Florida after Hurricane Frances. Thousands of people return home to find their houses destroyed. FEMA Director Michael Brown is our guest.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, September 7. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, gruesome and horrific images from inside the school in Russia where radical Islamist terrorists slaughtered hundreds of children and adults. The shocking videotape that you are about to see shows the terrorists preparing bombs as children and their parents cower in fear.
And, in Moscow today, at least 100,000 people protested against the terrorists, this the largest public demonstration since the fall of communism in Russia.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The tapes are horrifying. In this video taken by a terrorist inside the school, hundreds of hostages, women and children, packed together, cowering in fear, hands behind backs and heads. Armed and masked gunmen wiring the gym with explosives. Some explosive devices dangling from the school basketball net.
President Putin said Russian security forces intercepted a walkie-talkie communication from inside the building. One terrorist saying, "What are you doing? I hear some noise. What's going on?" The reply, "I'm just in the middle of shooting some children." "They were bored," said Putin, "so they shot children."
A day of mourning in Moscow. Thousands and thousands of Russians demonstrated at the Kremlin, stunned and sad. The demonstrations quiet, the country speechless with grief. This week, the newspaper "Isvestia" ran a wordless photo.
At the scene of the carnage, residents of Beslan have been able to walk through the charred shell of the building, still strewn with clothing and blood.
In Beslan, the town had to make another cemetery. The usual one, too small to accommodate the dead.
President Putin is under criticism in his own country for how the crisis was handled. There are indications he has quelled press reports that question his decision to storm the school.
DIMITRI SIMES, PRESIDENT, THE NIXON CENTER: One would expect that there would be some kind of plan, how to deal with this calamity, and yet the Russian government proved to be unprepared. They were reacting rather than acting, and Putin is being criticized for that.
PILGRIM: Putin has also lashed out at the United States, saying mid-level officials in the U.S. government had been meeting with Chechen separatists. In a London newspaper this week, Putin rejected criticism of his refusal to talk to Chechen terrorists, saying, "Why don't you meet with Osama bin Laden, invite him to Brussels or the White House and engage in talks, ask him what he wants, give it to him so he leaves you in peace. Why don't you do that?"
(END VIDEOTAPE) PILGRIM: Now the State Department today denied any meetings with Chechen political figures or separatists, saying "The United States has met with people from Chechnya who had differing points of view, including points of view that differ from the Russian government, but we don't meet with terrorists and we don't meet with people who are involved in violence" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, frankly, that sounds like artifice and a neat distinction in terms, doesn't it, on the part of the State Department?
PILGRIM: It seems like a fairly accurate statement in that there is a policy not to meet with confirmed terrorists, and so it seems fairly accurate.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
A terrible tragedy in Russia, and Russia, like the United States, and the rest of the civilized world facing stark choices in the days and weeks ahead.
Thank you very much.
Turning now to Iraq, insurgents today killed three more American troops in a day of fierce fighting near Baghdad. Today, the number of American troops killed in Iraq rose above 1,000.
Walter Rodgers reports from Baghdad now.
Walt, let me first ask you has both the intensity and the frequency of attacks against American troops risen lately?
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It does seem so, Lou, and, as you look at the situation, this is not the kind of day an incumbent president like Mr. Bush would like to have, saddled as he is -- running for reelection, saddled with an increasingly unpopular war.
The headline: U.S. fatalities -- combat and other deaths -- in Iraq in the last 17 months is now above 1,000. That's not a statistic. Those are husbands, fathers, brothers, sons, daughters and sisters.
Two weeks ago, the U.S. thought it had demoralized, if not decimated, the Shiite army known as the Medhi Army of Muqtada al Sadr.
Again, within the last 24 hours, U.S. forces, the 1st Armored Cavalry soldiers, were fighting the Medhi Army of Muqtada al Sadr again, this time not in Najaf, but here in Baghdad in the northeastern suburb of Sadr City. Those were running gun battles. U.S. tanks and armored vehicles against Iraqis, Shiite rebels, running at them, firing rocket-propelled grenades from their shoulders. Again, the casualties have been very bad.
But one thing, very bad news for President Bush and the United States, there is that militia out -- still out there, the Medhi Army, and they are tackling the Americans at almost every twist and turn certainly at will. At least 25 Iraqis were killed.
Earlier today, the military here in Baghdad released the American combat deaths for the past few months. Listen to this: 52 Americans killed in August, 39 killed in July, 36 killed in June and 56 killed in May. Those are combat deaths for the last several months here.
There was also bad news for the Italians today. Two Italian aide workers in a Baghdad hospital trying to help Baghdad civilians. Twenty-nine-year-old girls kidnapped -- kidnapped -- by men posing as Iraqi National Guardsmen. No one knows the fate of these young Italian women. All we know is that they have been kidnapped for trying to help Iraqis, Iraqi civilians in a hospital.
And tonight in Baghdad, even more devastating news. Baghdad is supposed to be safe, yet a major police station in the heart of the city was overrun by insurgents. One police officer was killed, two others critically wounded, eight others wounded. The Iraqi insurgents then let all the prisoners out of jail and escaped, and the U.S. had to come in and -- U.S. forces had to come in and reseize that jail -- Lou.
DOBBS: Walt, thank you very much.
Walter Rodgers reporting live from Baghdad.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today declared that the United States is winning the global war against terror. Tonight, Pentagon sources say there is a new plan to move against insurgent strongholds, such as Fallujah, where U.S. troops are not even permitted to enter.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The suicide bombing that claimed the lives of seven Marines Monday was part of a spike in U.S. casualties that has pushed the number of U.S. military dead in Iraq over 1,000, and the number of wounded close to 7,000.
But the Pentagon insists in almost every clash with the insurgents, such as Tuesday's fighting in the Baghdad slum of Sadr City, the U.S. is inflicting far heavier casualties on its enemies, killing as many as 2,500 insurgents in the last month alone.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS: This is a pattern across Iraq. The more aggressive the tactics of the insurgency, the greater their loss of human life.
MCINTYRE: U.S. warplanes continue to pound Fallujah, the biggest of the enemy enclaves from which some U.S. commanders believe suspected terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi may be directing elements of the insurgency.
Pentagon sources tell CNN that a joint U.S.-Iraqi plan is in the works to launch a series of offensives aimed at eliminating so-called no-go zones across Iraq, areas where the U.S. chooses not to patrol and the Iraqi government does not control.
But fearing that a heavy-handed U.S. offensive could make more enemies out of ordinary Iraqis, the strategy is to wait until the interim Iraqi government has enough forces to pacify what for now have become safe havens for insurgents.
RUMSFELD: For their country to succeed, they simply cannot over a sustained period of time have areas that are under the control of people who are violently opposed to that government. They get it, and they will find a way over time to deal with it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The problem is that plan relies on Iraqi security forces, and, today, the Pentagon admitted that of the 200,000 security forces, only about 95,000 have rudimentary training and equipment, and none of those are battle tested. With Iraqi elections set for January, U.S. commanders warn that time is running out to re-establish the rule of law in Iraq -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, it is very unclear at this point, at least as I assess it, what the U.S. policy is, the dealings, the negotiations with Muqtada al Sadr, supposedly removing the Medhi Army from confrontation with U.S. and Iraqi forces, but no-go cities, as you pointed out, whether Fallujah, Ramallah, the fact of the matter is the U.S. policy is very unclear here. Can you help us out on that issue?
MCINTYRE: Well, the Pentagon insists that these no-go areas are not places they can't go. They're places they decided not to go because they think it's counterproductive.
I've talked to some military officials today who made the point that they believe that the U.S. has the brute force to go in and pacify some of these places. But they're just afraid that that kind of solution won't work out in the long term because it will just create more enemies among the Iraqi people.
So they're really working on this plan to get the Iraqis out in front and deal with this problem over the next couple of months because they believe in the long term that will be better off, even though in the short term it means the U.S. is still taking attacks from some of these places.
DOBBS: Taking attacks and taking casualties, Jamie, as you well know and as you report here often. The fact is that the number of Americans killed each month has risen over the past three months, the frequency of attacks is rising.
Is the Pentagon saying what its response will be to obviously what is a worsening situation in terms of at least risk to the lives and the well-being of American troops?
MCINTYRE: Well, when we questioned the Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers about this today, he was very circumspect, and he made the point of saying just a little bit and then saying that to say any more would compromise operational details. Now, when he says that, the subtext there is that there are operational details, there are plans in the works that they don't want to talk about. How effective they'll be, we'll just have to see.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon where today it was announced that more than 1,000 Americans have been killed in Iraq, 7,000 wounded.
The rising number of American deaths in Iraq doesn't appear to be undermining, however, the will of American voters to stay the course in this war. A CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows 58 percent of Americans saying that the United States should not change its policy in Iraq. Thirty-seven percent say the United States should intensify its efforts to withdraw. That poll conducted at the end of last month.
On Capitol Hill today, two leading senators launched a new effort trying to implement all of the intelligence reforms proposed by the September 11 commission. Senator John McCain and Senator Joe Lieberman said their bill will create a new national intelligence director and strengthen border and transportation security. The two senators launched the legislative effort on the day Congress returned from its summer vacation.
National Security Correspondent David Ensor reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The legislation has heavyweight co-sponsors, Republican and Democrat. It implements the 41 recommendations of the 9/11 commission, including creating a national intelligence director with real power.
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: If we reorganize and reform the enormous human and technological intelligence assets America has as the commission has recommended, we will be able to see, hear and stop the terrorist attacks against us before they occur.
ENSOR: Less than a month remains on the legislative calendar before the November elections, but the bill has the 9/11 commission's support and the clout of victims' families behind it. The pressure to vote soon on the bill -- or something like it -- is intense.
THOMAS KEAN, FORMER CHAIRMAN, 9/11 COMMISSION: God forbid, you know, something happens again, and we're six months from now, and recommendations that could have made the American people safer have not been implemented.
ENSOR: But the proposal strips power from the Pentagon, over 80 percent of the intelligence community budget, and it places the nation's top intelligence director outside of the Central Intelligence Agency, against the advice of some former CIA directors.
SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: I think we have one chance to do this, one moment in time, and we had better get it right. It would be worse to rush and get it wrong.
ENSOR: The bill also creates a national counterterrorism center, increases aid to Afghanistan and Pakistan, and sets new federal standards for states on driver's licenses and birth certificates, making them harder for terrorists to forge.
At a White House meeting Wednesday morning, congressional leaders may hear from the president what post-9/11 reforms he favors. Is he willing to strip budget power over the National Security Agency and other spy agencies, from the secretary of defense?
SEN. JOHN ROCKEFELLER (D), VICE CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: My concern is whether or not he has the will or the determination or the knowledge of the issue to stand up to the vice president and to Don Rumsfeld. Those are two very formidable people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: But this is also an election year. The president's Democratic challenger John Kerry has made clear that if the 9/11 commission proposals are watered down by the White House, he may seek to make that a campaign issue -- Lou.
DOBBS: And he has support as well from the highly regarded chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Senator Pat Roberts.
David Ensor, thank you.
Still ahead here tonight, shock and tears in Florida as homeowners survey the devastation left by Hurricane Frances. The director of FEMA, Michael Brown, is our guest.
President Bush and Senator Kerry on the campaign trail using sharp language. Their running mates also escalating their attacks. We'll have the report.
And in Exporting America tonight, one community pays a high price as its biggest employer simply ships hundreds of jobs abroad. Tonight, I'll talk with two guests with sharply different views on the causes of Exporting America and possible solutions to what is nothing less than an outsourcing crisis.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Hurricane Frances has all but dissipated, gone from Florida, but almost the entire State of Florida is still suffering from the impact of Frances. More than a dozen deaths in the Southeastern United States are being blamed now on the storm.
Residents of Florida returning home to destruction, shortages of gas, ice and water. Millions in Florida are still without power tonight, and officials there say power won't be fully restored for a week in some parts. President Bush is set to travel to Florida tomorrow. He will be going there to survey the damage. Joining me is Michael Brown. He's the director of Federal Emergency Management Agency joining us tonight appropriately enough from the National Hurricane Center in Miami.
Director Brown, good to have you with us.
MICHAEL BROWN, DIRECTOR, FEMA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's begin first with the amount of damage there and the number of people that are without water, without electricity tonight.
BROWN: Well, Lou, it's a pretty miserable situation. My-- you know, my heart really goes out to these folks. What FEMA has done -- we've put together all the resources from the Department of Homeland Security. We have literally tons of water, tons of ice, hundreds of thousands of meals moving into communities as you and I speak to help these people at least get some comfort until they get their feet back on the ground.
DOBBS: Now what assistance is FEMA bringing to bear directly?
BROWN: Well, Lou, we're focused on two primary actions right now -- lifesaving and life sustaining. We need to make certain we get the message out that, even though Hurricane Frances and Charley have now moved on, it's still a dangerous situation with floodwaters, downed power lines, no electrical current. I mean, it's just a very dangerous situation.
And then life sustaining -- we still have thousands of people in shelters, special-needs shelters. We've got to get food, water, ice, a place to sleep, and some -- just some basic comforts to these folks so they can start getting registered to get the aid, get them in temporary housing and that sort of thing that FEMA does in every disaster.
DOBBS: And the hardest hit parts of Florida in your assessment?
BROWN: Well, Lou, there are a couple of areas in the state, particularly the middle, DeSoto County, Hardee County, a lot of these areas where three weeks ago Hurricane Charley moved through very rapidly with very destructive winds, almost like tornadoes in some areas.
And then three weeks later, just as they're beginning to recover, Hurricane Frances moves through, and what Frances does, which was so frustrating to all of us, she moved inland and then she just barely crawled across the state. So people were inundated with rain.
We couldn't get in. I kept saying as soon as Frances moves two feet, we'll move two feet. But these people got a double whammy, one three weeks ago and then one just the past couple of days.
DOBBS: Your best estimate of the total damage in dollars and cents to Florida? I know it's very early. You're just beginning to fully assess all of the damage. Is there an estimate that you find reliable? BROWN: There really isn't yet, Lou, and I just put it in perspective. The president obviously went to Congress today and requested $2 billion supplement for FEMA, primarily for our response and recovery efforts just for Hurricane Charley. The president will go back later for a supplemental for Hurricane Frances.
So you can see we're talking an excess of probably $4 billion or $5 billion, and that's not counting the economic damage. That's not counting the damage to businesses and others as they try to rebuild here in Florida.
DOBBS: Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.
We thank you very much for being with us.
BROWN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Still ahead here, new attacks on the campaign trail. Both presidential candidates blasting each other on the economy and Iraq. A third has not elevated the intensity of his. Of course independent candidate Ralph Nader. We'll have the latest for you from the Republicans and Democrats on the campaign trail.
Exporting America tonight. Hundreds more Americans soon to lose their jobs to cheap labor, this time in Mexico, and this outsourcing, this exporting of America devastates a Midwestern town. We'll have that special report.
And the author of a new book says the exporting of America is a crisis created not by corporate America, but by the left. Todd Buchholz, author of "Bringing the Jobs Home," is my guest. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues with more news, debate and opinion. Here now, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: On the campaign trail today, fighting words hurled by the vice presidential candidates. Vice President Cheney said electing the Democrats could put the nation at risk of another terrorist attack, and that prompted an angry response from Senator John Edwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's absolutely essential that eight weeks from today on November 2 we make the right choice because, if we make the wrong choice, then the danger is that we'll get hit again, that we'll be hit in a way that will be devastating from the standpoint of the United States, and that we'll fall back into the pre-9/11 mindset, if you will, that, in fact, these terrorist attacks are just criminal acts and that we're not really at war. SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Dick Cheney's scare tactics today crossed the line. What he said to the American people was if you go to the polls in November and elect anyone other than us, then -- and another terrorist attack occurs, it's your fault.
This is un-American. The truth is it proves once again that they'll do anything and say anything to keep their jobs. Protecting the American people from terrorist attacks and from vicious terrorists is not a Republican issue and it's not a Democratic issue, it's an American issue, and George Bush and Dick Cheney should know that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: President Bush, for his part, campaigning in Missouri for a second straight day and opening a new line of attack against Senator John Kerry. President Bush blasted Senator Kerry for calling Iraq "the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time." President Bush said Senator Kerry is beginning to sound like one of his former rivals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He woke up yesterday morning with yet another new position, and this one is not even his own. It is that of his one-time rival Howard Dean. He even used the same words Howard Dean did back when he supposedly disagreed with him. No matter how many times Senator Kerry flip flops, we were right to make America safer by removing Saddam Hussein from power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Kerry today centered his attacks against President Bush's handling of the economy and the roughly one million jobs lost since President Bush took office. The Democratic presidential candidate said the president has encouraged the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.
Ed Henry has the report from Greensboro, North Carolina.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): John Kerry visited the textile state of North Carolina as his campaign opened a new line of attack against President Bush, calling him the outsourcer in chief.
SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: George Bush's wrong choices were continuing to ship jobs overseas, jobs that have good wages and good benefits, and all across America companies have been shutting their doors, downsizing the benefits to employees.
HENRY: Kerry's need for a push on pocketbook issues is clear in a new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll. While the president has double- digit leads on the question of who would do a better job handling terror and Iraq, Kerry has a 3-point edge on the economy. The senator charged that the loss of 2.7 million manufacturing jobs on Bush's watch is due in part to the president's support of a decades-old provision that allows U.S. companies that operate overseas to defer paying taxes on those earnings.
KERRY: Bush actually thinks it's a good idea.
HENRY: Kerry outlined a plan to close the outsourcing loophole and still cut taxes for 99 percent of U.S. companies. Bush campaign officials strongly defend the president's record and say the Kerry plan will do virtually nothing to stop the flow of U.S. jobs overseas.
TIM ADAMS, BUSH CAMPAIGN POLICY DIRECTOR: Kerry's own advisers say that his proposals won't work and this stands in stark contrast to the president's proposals which will address outsourcing and will address job creation and keeping jobs here.
HENRY: The Bush campaign all notes that when Kerry recently released a list of top business supporters, it included 40 outsourcers.
(on camera): John Kerry is here in North Carolina because Democrats have high hopes of carrying the swing state, especially with John Edwards on the ticket. Republicans scoff and say it's a matter of time before Democrats write this staff off and focus even more resources on places like Ohio where John Kerry is headed once again tonight.
Ed Henry, CNN, Greensboro, North Carolina.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Tonight we focus on one community that is feeling the very real pain of exporting America. We first brought you the story of Galesburg, Illinois, in January when we reported to you that Maytag planned to close its factory there and to export 1,600 jobs to Mexico.
Now, that plant will close in just two weeks and the people of the community are demanding answers. Peter Viles reports from Galesburg, Illinois.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A Labor Day rally in America's heartland, black humor. "My Job Went Overseas, All I Got Was This T-Shirt."
LT. GOV. PAT QUINN (D), ILLINOIS: Well, How are we going to have a middle class in this country if we have corporations like Maytag that are more loyal to the American dollar than they are to the American flag and the American worker?
VILES: In two weeks Maytag will shut down its giant plant here, a new plant will open in Mexico, 1,600 American jobs will disappear. And you bet there's anger here. Anger at NAFTA, at the Bush White House, at corporate America and especially at Maytag's CEO Ralph Hake. TOM BUFFENBARGER, IAM PRESIDENT: Maybe we can haul Ralph Hake's sorry ass before a congressional hearing some day and ask him to explain why this is good for America. I'd love to hear what he has to say.
VILES: It turns out a United States senator had already asked him.
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: Why are you doing this, I said? Well, he said, all the companies are moving production overseas. And I asked him a basic question. Where do you sell your refrigerators? Well, he said, in the United States of America. And I said, well, let me ask you, doesn't it stand to reason that if you want American consumers to buy your products you might show some loyalty to those consumers and their families?
VILES: In a statement, Maytag told CNN, "our outsourcing is minimal when compared to the other major appliance companies. Ninety percent of our employees are in the United States." Maytag also said, "there are times when economically we have to make the decision to source some products out."
BARRACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS STATE SENATE: Anybody who says that we can reverse the tide overnight is not telling the truth. Because it took us 20 years to get in this hole. It's going to take us 20 years to get out. But it starts right here. And it starts right now. And it starts with us.
DAVE BREVARD, IAM LOCAL 2067: We say that if you want to see working people who are survivors, working people who care and fight for theirs and their children's future with guts, courage, integrity and pride, you don't have to open any damn history book, you come right here to Galesburg, Illinois and you'll find a Grade A workforce.
VILES (on camera): Now there is a lot of anger in this community but there's also a lot of pride. One worker who's been here 15 years told me that when she leaves this plant for the final time in two weeks, she'll walk out with her head held high because she's proud of the work she's done for Maytag.
Peter Viles, CNN, Galesburg, Illinois.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: My next guest says it is not the greed of corporate America but rather the policies of left-leaning politicians that have made this country less competitive and encouraged outsourcing. Todd Buchholz is the author of the new book, "Bringing the Jobs Home. How the Left Created the Outsourcing Crisis & How We Can Fix It."
He also served as economic policy adviser to President George Herbert Walker Bush. Todd joins us tonight from San Diego, California. Todd, good to have you with us.
TODD BUCHHOLZ, AUTHOR, "BRINGING THE JOBS HOME": Thanks. Thanks for having me, Lou. DOBBS: Let's go counterintuitive. How did the left create the outsourcing of jobs by corporate America?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, you know, blaming CEOs for outsourcing, I think, is a little bit like Tiger Woods blaming the golf ball for losing to Vijay Singh. CEOs...
DOBBS: I would agree that many cases, Todd, they have about the same inertia. But I'm sure that's not your point.
BUCHHOLZ: No. The point -- we have to look at the American workforce and ask, why is it that corporations are looking at American workers and saying they're not the right people for the job? And in "Bringing The Jobs Home," I cite the deficiencies in the education system, the rampant litigation crisis, the excessive credentialism and the entitlement programs that are going to be blowing up in the next 20 years. No CEO wants to be caught footing the bill for those when they do explode.
DOBBS: What does a CEO, Todd, in your judgment want to be caught footing the bill for? Because this country provides their basic corporate charter, provides them the richest consumer market in the world and provides them the opportunity to have an enterprise in the first place. Just exactly what should a CEO be encumbered by?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, a CEO should at least be aware or have some kind of assurance of what the liabilities will be down the road. We have, as I said, a Medicare and Social Security system that could saddle the corporation with billions -- with bankruptcy-level judgments against them. We saw, for instance, in the asbestos lawsuit cases. You have companies that never had much to do with asbestos at all and find themselves having to go out of business or as Joseph Stiglitz said, a Nobel Laureate economist who actually worked in the Clinton administration calculated we've lost 600,000 jobs because of liabilities that CEOs never imagined they'd have to confront.
DOBBS: I think that is an actually -- a very fair assessment. But in terms of the regulations that CEOs confront and you hear CEOs, when talking about outsourcing American jobs, middle class jobs to India, to The Philippines, to China, Romania, you hear them talking about productivity and efficiency and competitiveness. And you address part of this in your book. But the fact is, those are just code words for cheap labor.
Do you believe, and I know that you've looked at this seriously from the cost, the burden on corporate America, do you really believe that corporate America and policy makers in Washington, Democrat and Republican, have a right to put the American middle class in direct competition with Third World labor to produce the same products and services that they're creating right here in this country?
BUCHHOLZ: See, I don't think it's about cheap labor. It's about productivity. When you see companies that, for instance, outsource SEC functions, security and exchange functions in the Philippines, the pass rate on the Series 7 exam is 80 percent compared to just 50 percent in the U.S. CEOs have to ask themselves, are we going to be interested in giving our customers the right answers or not?
DOBBS: So you see it as a question of education and capability of the American worker then?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, that's right. I think it's -- I think our education system is kind of like Ford Pintos from the 1970s. They're underpowered, underperforming and now under threat from foreigners.
DOBBS: And just how in the world would be laying off American middle class workers who provide taxes because after all, people pay taxes, not corporations, right, Todd? Isn't that part of the mantra in this entire context? If those people don't have jobs and they continue to watch their jobs descend down a payscale, how in the world are they going to provide the taxes to improve education? How in the world are they going to be able to support their communities and provide the services necessary?
BUCHHOLZ: Lou, if we try to insulate our economy from competition, to put ourselves in some kind of lock box -- remember the rust buckets that General Motors was selling in the 1970s until they had to confront Japanese competition. Now it turns out that finally, 30 years later, American car companies are producing products that are world class. That's a good thing. It means the consumers are not paying thousands of dollars each year to fix their rust buckets as they had to in the 1970s and the 1980s.
DOBBS: So it doesn't concern you at all that American car makers have only half of the richest car market in all the world, half of the largest consumer market in the world?
BUCHHOLZ: It concerns me, Lou, but let me tell you. If we are going to rest our economy on the good intentions, or the patriotism of corporate managers, I'm afraid depending on, as Tennessee Williams said, the kindness of strangers to maintain our standard of living, that's not going to do it. We have to be realistic and we have to understand that motivations are the profit motive. And we have to figure out how to harness that to our favor instead of ignoring it and putting ourselves in a lock box against competition.
DOBBS: The lock box is really where the American worker is trying to be put by corporate America. If outsourcing is so good, why isn't it we haven't heard one single CEO outsourcing his or her job overseas?
BUCHHOLZ: Well, I didn't say outsourcing was a good thing. To me, and I am not one of those free market knee jerkers who like Bobby McFerrin sing, don't worry, be happy. To me, outsourcing is a symptom that we have pathologies in our economic system that we must solve. I don't think it's a sign that everything is going great. It's a sign we better change our ways.
DOBBS: And we better change them quickly, if I may add, Todd, because a lot of people are feeling a lot of pain as you know in this country.
Todd Buchholz, we thank you for being here. I hope you'll come back because this is a very important issue that you're dealing with, that we deal with here on this broadcast. Come back soon.
BUCHHOLZ: Thanks, Lou, appreciate it.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question is, "do you believe the interests of the American middle class are being well represented by our Congress, the House, and the Senate, of course. Yes or no?" Please cast your vote at CNN.com/lou. We'll be bringing you results a little later.
Coming up next your thoughts on "Exporting America." Also ahead I'll be joined by John Sweeney, the president of the AFL-CIO who says rewarding companies for exporting American jobs is a slap in the face to working Americans. He's our guest.
And a new book says Republicans and Democrats in Washington are both guilty of bankrupting America. Joe Scarborough, author of "Rome Wasn't Burned in a Day" joins me coming across the river from MSNBC. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says President Bush has turned his back on working men and women in this country. That is not a surprising view coming from the head of the AFL-CIO. AFL-CIO President John Sweeney spent his Labor Day campaigning with vice presidential candidate Senator John Edwards. Sweeney says the Kerry-Edwards ticket offers hopes to Americans whose jobs have been shipped to cheap foreign labor markets. John Sweeney joins me now from Washington, D.C.
John, it is good to have you here.
JOHN SWEENEY, PRESIDENT, AFL-CIO: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: I think it's appropriate to wish you, as the head of the AFL-CIO, a very happy Labor Day week, if I may.
SWEENEY: Thank you. And congratulations on your new book "Exporting America."
DOBBS: Well, thank you very much, John. Let me ask you this, your support for the Kerry-Edwards campaign is based on your concern about working men and women in this country. Have you heard Senator Kerry or Senator Edwards lay out a plan that says the Democratic Party is going to return to its roots and represent working men and women in this country? Because, frankly, I have not.
SWEENEY: I heard it over the weekend. I was with John Kerry in Akron, Ohio, on Saturday and I was with John Edwards yesterday in Minneapolis-St. Paul. And in both of those events I heard a lot of talk about job creation and about turning America around and hope for a working family agenda.
DOBBS: The working family agenda, I was talking with Todd Buchholz just moments ago, talking about the importance of education, trying to get litigation under control so that we can remove some of the burdens on corporate America.
But the fact is, this is, after all, about cheap labor, and finding that labor to compete with the middle class in this country. What can the AFL-CIO what can, in this case, the Kerry-Edwards ticket do to stop that kind of blunt, simple policy that makes American jobs expendable in favor of cheap foreign labor?
SWEENEY: Well, I think that the burdens that you refer to do have to be addressed. But I think there has to be an overall ambitious job development program. And it includes tax reform and closing the loopholes on those corporations that are shipping our jobs overseas.
But it also includes tax incentives for businesses that want to stay here in the United States. But education and training, upscaling are all important factors that have to be a part of a job development program. And we haven't been seeing this for the past three-and-a- half years.
DOBBS: We have not seen a sufficient number of jobs created, without question, certainly not on a historical level, falling well short of it. We just also heard, however, a candidate -- a Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama, saying that it didn't take 20 years to create the problem of outsourcing -- that it did take 20 years. And it will take 20 years to resolve it. To my ear, that sounds horrible. It's like no solution at all. We have to deal with these issues relatively quickly, do we not?
SWEENEY: We sure do. There is a jobs crisis in our country and it is continuing to get worse. As we've seen from some of the most recent experiences with Maytag being one of them. These are very productive workers who are proud of what they do and what they have done and contributed to the success of companies and we have to find a way to have a strong job development program.
DOBBS: And you're union. Other unions across the country, what are your plans to provide greater momentum for the preservation of middle class jobs in this country, greater momentum for the creation of those jobs?
SWEENEY: Well, we have been really advocating policy changes, and we have been trying to -- even with the Bush administration, trying to get more resources for labor management programs that would include training and restructuring in the workforce. But the response has not been favorable, especially over the past four years.
DOBBS: John Sweeney, the head of the AFL-CIO, as always, good talking with you.
SWEENEY: Thanks, Lou. Nice to be with you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, my next guest says politicians, bureaucrats and Washington barbarians are bankrupting this country. Former congressman of Florida, author of "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day", the fellow who inhabits "SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY" over on MSNBC joins me next here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough says when it comes to wasting your tax dollars, there's not a dime's worth of difference between Republicans and Democrats. He is the author of a new book titled "Rome Wasn't Burnt in a Day: The Real Deal on How Politicians, Bureaucrats & Other Washington Barbarians Are Bankrupting America." Joe Scarborough joins me now.
Joe, good to have you.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, FMR. CONGRESSMAN: It's great to be here, Lou.
DOBBS: Terrific read. Not a dime's difference between Democrats and Republicans. I have to say that that sort of resonates to my ear.
SCARBOROUGH: That's tough. Back in -- and I talk about this in the book, back in 1995 when I was holding town hall meetings all over the place, I'd go there and I'd say, we're going to change Washington. We're going to change the culture of Washington. We're going to balance the budget. We're going to pay down the debt. We're going to reform the way things are done there.
DOBBS: And those term limits.
SCARBOROUGH: And term limits. And people would stand up and say, basically, there's not a dime's worth of difference. And it would enrage me. I was like, how dare you say that?
So here we are 10 years later. When I got into Congress we had a $4 trillion national debt. Now we have got a $7.5 trillion debt. Today the Congressional Budget Office announces we've got the biggest deficits in the history of America, $430 billion, $440 billion. We are in big trouble economically in this country.
DOBBS: We're in big trouble. You point it out. But I was struck by the fact, you are a member of the 104th Congress, the Gingrich revolution, if you will. But the fact is, the Clinton administration, and budget balancing act of 1993, with the vote by Vice President Gore, are the ones who get tremendous credit for leading us to a balanced budget in this country.
Didn't last long, but primarily because of a Republican administration. Now admittedly the exigencies of September 11th, the recession of 2001 and a war on terror.
SCARBOROUGH: But we've got Democrats, the big spenders, balancing budgets and we got the Republicans setting up spending 10.5 percent a year.
It's the craziest thing in the world. When I started researching this book I looked at the president's number, I looked at Congress' number. And what I found was that over the past three, four years, spending under this administration has grown at 10.5 percent. That's more about Congress than the president. But still, the president -- here's the president's biggest problem, not a single veto. Hasn't vetoed a single bill. Under Bill Clinton...
DOBBS: He's just a get-along, go-along kind of guy.
SCARBOROUGH: I guess. Under Bill Clinton, the guy we all despised. The guy that I couldn't even watch on TV in the early '90s because he made me so angry. The guy when people ask me why I was running for Congress, I'd say Bill Clinton. Under Bill Clinton and the Republican Congress, spending grew at 3.4 percent. Now, a lot of Republicans come up to me and say, yes, Joe, but you know, there was September 11th. Sure there was.
But, Cato, Heritage Foundation, all those conservative think tanks have done these studies that show that domestic spending, forget about 9/11, forget about homeland security, forget about Iraq, Afghanistan. Domestic spending has grown at a faster clip than any other time since the great society. In fact...
DOBBS: So what makes you a Republican, than, a conservative. If there's not a dimes bit of difference between a Republican and Democrat, and both in my opinion are as equally beholden to corporate America -- corporate America's interest.
SCARBOROUGH: Right.
DOBBS: How do you declare yourself conservative?
What makes you a conservative or Republican?
SCARBOROUGH: Well, because I am a Reagan Republican. I believe like Ronald Reagan and like Jefferson said, the government that governs least governs best. I think what we have right now is a problem...
DOBBS: People would say government in all forms is governing poorly, I don't know if that's least.
SCARBOROUGH: It is governing poorly. But I think, the biggest problem has been this. This Republican Congress came in wanted to change the world, wanted to balance the budget, wanted to do all these great things. And as you know, these guys are great on the outside, but once they get inside, once they become powerful, once they're in charge, all they're concerned about is staying in power.
All these ideologues that came in with me, that's really what this book's about. This is not about numbers. It's about how the system corrupts people. They decided they would rather, instead of being the barbarians at the gate, they wanted to be the imperial guards.
DOBBS: Palace guards, as you put it.
SCARBOROUGH: Palace guards, right.
DOBBS: You also make another reference that I found interesting in the book to the idea of revolution within the society.
SCARBOROUGH: Peaceful.
DOBBS: A peaceful revolution, I should say. Do you think there is a capacity for people to gain, the middle class in particular, representation again in Congress, and 1600 Pennsylvania?
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. It happened in 1994. And in 1994 you had lot of guys -- middle class guys like me, never been elected to anything. We got elected, made a difference. It can happen again.
DOBBS: "Rome Wasn't Burned in a Day." Maybe we can get that representation back in a day or two.
Joe Scarborough, thank you very much, appreciate it.
SCARBOROUGH: Thanks a lot, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, we'll hear some of "Your Thoughts" on the "Exporting of America."
And reminder to check our Web site for the complete listing of companies, now more than 1000, we've confirmed to be "Exporting America."
Cnn.com/lou will continue in a moment, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A good day for the investor class, that's most of us. The Dow gained nearly 83 points, the Nasdaq rose 14, the S&P up 8. Taking a look now at some of your thoughts on "Exporting America."
Barbara Hamilton Cerny of Atlanta, Georgia, "Lou, I don't think our leaders realize all of effects of outsourcing. A higher bottom line and an additional bonus for the CEO is not valuable to future generations. Not only are we losing jobs, we are losing our skills. What god is an MBA or bachelor's degree if the skill can't be used by Americans?"
Keith Shook in San Juan Capistrano, California, "The lower cost of goods from China will not offset the lower paying jobs Americans will have to accept to stay employed. IN the end our standard of living will decline."
And Michael Waldrop of Kansas City, Missouri, "I'm just curious, were the workers in India and China with outsourced American jobs able to celebrate Labor Day?"
We love hearing from you. Send us "Your Thoughts" at loudobbs@cnn.com. Please send us your name and address because we're also sending each you who's e-mail is read on this broadcast a copy of my new book, "Exporting America."
Still ahead the results of "Tonight's Poll." And we'll give you a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
The results now of our poll. And it is an overwhelming result. We haven't seen this kind of result in a long time to any of our polls. Ninety-nine percent of you, say you do not believe the interest of the American middle class are well represented in the U.S. Congress.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow.
In "Face Off," a debate on a state government contract. We will bring foreigners into this country to upgrade of all things, a states unemployment system. We'll hear sharply different views from the Nebraska commission of labor who signed that contract, and one state senator who is leading the fight against it.
And imagine a California with no Mexicans. A new film taking comic look, but a profound look at what it would do to the state. The creator's of "A Day Without a Mexican" will be here with me tomorrow. Please be with us.
For all us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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