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American Morning

'Kamber & May'; 'Paging Dr. Gupta'

Aired September 08, 2004 - 08:30 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back everyone. It's not New York City; it's Gotham today. Batman is going to be crawling out on the streets here sometime very soon. Frances -- feeling the effects -- here in the Northeast.
Kelly Wallace with us again today. Good morning to you.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you.

HEMMER: An awful lot of news to talk about on the campaigns, on both sides. The vice president's comments on terrorism; the U.S. deaths in Iraq, a record deficit. Kamber and May join us in a few moments to talk about those issues.

WALLACE: Also, Bill, we're turning our attention to the Scott Peterson trial. Turning to questions of DNA evidence. We'll look at what the statements do to prove a key point in the case when we talk to a former prosecutor about the difficulty that comes with this kind of evidence.

HEMMER: All right also at 8:30 here in New York City want to get back to Daryn Kagan for the headlines there. Daryn, good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning once again, Bill. The third anniversary of 9/11 terror attacks is approaching. There is growing pressure on Congress to pass intelligence reforms. Within the half hour, President Bush will meet with key leaders from the intelligence community.

They are expected to discuss which policies should be enacted and in what time frame.

Meanwhile former President Jimmy Carter is accusing Senator Zell Miller of unprecedented disloyalty. In a letter sent over the weekend, Mr. Carter blasted the Democratic senator's keynote address at the Republican convention, calling it, quote, "rabid and mean spirited."

Miller responded by saying the security of his family outweighs any loyalty to the Democratic Party.

The U.S. wants the United Nations to take action against the Sudanese government. More than a million people there have fled their homes in Sudan's Darfur region and up to 50,000 others were killed there in the past 18 months of conflict.

The U.S. says it will introduce a new draft resolution to the U.N. Security Council later today.

Interest rates are likely to go up again. Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan will speak to the House Budget Committee two hours from now. Financial analysts are betting that Greenspan will say the economy is growing and that the Federal Reserve will pick the rate up at its next meeting in about three weeks. Back to you in New York.

HEMMER: All right Daryn, thanks for that.

Time for Kamber and May now and an awful lot to cover on the campaign trail.

From Washington, with us Democratic strategist Victor Kamber. Welcome back, Vic, and good morning to you.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Pleasure, Bill.

HEMMER: Also Cliff May, former RNC communications director, now with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and, Cliff, good morning to you, as well.

Cliff, want to start with you. The comments from Dick Cheney about who fights a better war on terror -- if John Kerry wins in January he believes that the pre-9/11 mindset would now start to take over the country yet again.

John Edwards strikes back -- said these are scare tactics and un- American. Where do we stand on this debate, Cliff?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Oh, look, I wish that the rhetoric was not so charged. We should have a civil debate over what kind of war we're involved in and how we should fight it.

That said; there's a serious question here that both sides do need to address. Are we in a World War, or is this a criminal justice problem that we have to tackle in that way as we did before 9/11 and rather than say oh, that was unfair comment let's debate the real issues and that's what the issue really is...

HEMMER: Are the issues then, Victor, are the issues getting muddy then? If the debate is not civil?

KAMBER: Well, no question about it. I mean, it's interesting for Cliff to say let's debate the real issues. This issue was raised by Dick Cheney. Ironically, by the way, he really never said that the -- voting for the right person was George Bush. I sort of thought he meant when you say voting for the right person, he was talking about John Kerry, and I felt bad for George Bush that he was trashing his own candidate.

Having said that, half-jokingly, obviously the issues need to be addressed, not these scare tactics and that's all it was. It was trying to, you know, scare the American people into believe there's only one way to vote. I'm where Cliff is. Let's talk issues, and frankly, probably, the first time that's really going to happen is when the two of them are on stage and confronting each other.

HEMMER: You're probably exactly right about that on the debates. Let's talk to the second topic right now. A thousand dead Americans now in battle going back 17 months. Victor, how is this playing now on the trail with John Kerry talking again today about Iraq in about an hour in Cincinnati?

KAMBER: Well, again, you know, I'm not one that really wants to sit here and certainly not gloat. It's a sad day for America. I don't care who is president to have lost one life, ten lives, 100 lives and now 1,000 lives. It's a very sad day.

Seven thousand plus injured and more importantly no end in sight for this. You know hopefully these young men and women haven't died in vain but at this point we don't know. There is no plan to get out of Iraq, to stabilize the country in the way that was promised to us.

And it's a very sad day for America.

HEMMER: Answers, Cliff?

MAY: Yes, it's terrible but we've never fought a war in which there wasn't loss of life. If we'd gone into Afghanistan in the 1990s we probably would have lost this many lives but we would have prevented 9/11 and we would have killed al Qaeda long before it became the menace it has become. If you believe that this is a real war fighting and that the war on terrorism and the totalitarian ideologies behind terrorism is being fought in Iraq as much as anywhere else then you understand we have to do this and we'll be there for the duration.

If you don't think so, if you think that Iraq has nothing to do with it and I disagree with that and I think Senator Kerry disagrees with that view, then obviously you are very skeptical of what we're doing in Iraq. But what are you saying that it's 1,000 lives and if we get to 2,000 lives we're going to surrender, we're going to give up, we're going to abandon the Iraqis?

A war is a terrible thing but we're at war.

KAMBER: No, what I'm really saying is that at one life or 100 or ten lives whatever -- or now 1,000 there has to be some accountability on the part of the leadership who called into question. And it's part of that same debate and you're right. There has to be a question. Was this worth it? Did it make -- accomplish anything and again I guess that will be when they confront each other.

MAY: I'm not sure I know what you mean. After Pearl Harbor six months a year into World War II...

KAMBER: Pearl Harbor, we were attacked...

MAY: Would you say? KAMBER: We were attacked and lost American lives. We were attacked at 9/11 there's no question, but there's no, absolutely no correlation between Iraq and 9/11.

MAY: This is the main debate we're having. I believe that after 9/11, we had to measure the menace of Saddam Hussein very differently and we had to do something about him before he fulfilled the intentions he clearly stated he had. I wish we had done that in Afghanistan.

KAMBER: Our obligation was the Osama bin Laden and he's still around. No need to go into Afghanistan -- and -- well...

MAY: This is the debate. This is the debate. I don't think we're at war with -- I don't think we're at war with Osama bin Laden. I think we're at war with the totalitarian ideologies that justify and drive terrorism and that Saddam Hussein is part of.

KAMBER: But that's not the basis we went to war, Cliff. It's 17 months later; we were promised weapons of mass destruction; we were promised that it was tied in to 9/11. Now we're redirecting our issues on another -- and it may be very valid but another issue.

HEMMER: I'm almost out of time. Cliff, final word.

MAY: Those who favored the intervention in Iraq did so for multiple reasons. Those who opposed it also believed that stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction would be found.

On 9/11, it was box cutters and airplanes, not weapons of mass destruction that did the damage.

HEMMER: All right we've got to go. Victor, thanks. Cliff May as well in D.C. Kelly.

WALLACE: Thanks, Bill, and moving ahead to Scott Peterson's double murder trial the focus now is on DNA, specifically a hair found in a pair of pliers on Peterson's boat.

Prosecutors say it came from Laci Peterson's body but proving it is proving difficult.

Dean Johnson, former San Mateo County prosecutor, joins us now from Redwood City, California. Good morning Mr. Johnson, thanks for being with us.

DEAN JOHNSON, FMR. SAN MATEO COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Good morning, thank you.

WALLACE: Let's get right to it. This evidence of the pliers. A key piece of evidence for the prosecution but it does appear the prosecution losing ground a bit with this. What's going on?

JOHNSON: Well, it certainly does. This piece of -- a pair of pliers with what appears to be Laci's hair has been a central point in the prosecution's case. The theory being that Scott Peterson had used these pliers to cut chicken wire which the prosecution would say was used to wrap Laci's dead body.

Now their own expert testifies that this particular pair of pliers never was used to cut that chicken wire, so now were used -- now are left with a pair of pliers in a boat and no apparent connection to the murder, no indication as to why the prosecution thinks that this pair of pliers and this single strand of hair help us solve the murder of Laci Peterson.

WALLACE: But what about, Mr. Johnson, that single piece of hair? Obviously going to be a focus today including DNA evidence. What can we expect? Well, again, another hurdle for the prosecution to overcome.

You know we've all been educated to believe that DNA is the be- all and end-all of identification evidence. This is not the nuclear DNA, which is the more common type of DNA.

It's what we call mitochondrial. It carries less information. The techniques for extracting it are more controversial. But, probably the prosecution can get to the point where it's expert will say that yes this hair is consistent with being that of Laci Peterson's and inconsistent with being other people's such as, say, Scott Peterson.

So the jury could infer that it's Laci Peterson's hair. We're still, however, left with how does that connect to the murder?

WALLACE: As you know, things got very emotional in court yesterday. A friend testifying talking about the last time she saw Laci Peterson alive. We have a photograph of that; it was a Christmas party. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant. How did the jurors react to that?

JOHNSON: Well, I think the jurors found this heart-rending. We heard a story of Laci who was tired, who was 8 months pregnant, who struggled to get into her Christmas outfit that she has bought, to go to her Christmas party, only to find that Scott Peterson was giving her an excuse that he couldn't show up at all, saying that there was some business reason why he couldn't be at the party.

Of course the jurors all know now that the real reason he couldn't show up at that party was because he was with his mistress, Amber Frey.

WALLACE: And we know the prosecution expected to call Lee Peterson, Scott Peterson's dad, to the stand. Lee Peterson saying he would stake his own life on his son's innocence.

What can we expect? How soon do you think he might be on the stand for the prosecution?

JOHNSON: Well, we don't know. There have been rumors around for about two days that Lee Peterson was going to be called as one of these gap-filling witnesses to talk about the fact that Scott had never told him that he bought a fishing boat. We don't know now when Lee Peterson will appear. Certainly not this week since the rest of this week's testimony will be taken up with the mitochondrial DNA expert. Once again, it's very difficult to see how Lee Peterson, who is devoutly committed to his son's innocence will help the prosecution.

WALLACE: Dean Johnson, we have to leave it there. We will all be watching.

Dean Johnson, former San Mateo County prosecutor, thanks for getting up early with us today.

JOHNSON: Thank you, my pleasure.

HEMMER: All right. Frances in the past now, a rainmaker here in the Northeast but there is Ivan out there and a strong storm at that. Category Four.

(WEATHER REPORT)

WALLACE: Well, still to come right here on AMERICAN MORNING, for those of you who think fast food isn't fast enough, meet hyperactive Bob. We are "Minding Your Business."

HEMMER: Also in a moment, former President Bill Clinton knew when it was time to talk to his doctors about his heart. Do you? We're "Paging Dr. Gupta" in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Well, doctors who operated on former President Bill Clinton say he looked healthy but was actually on the verge of a substantial heart attack.

So is there a lesson here for all of us? Dr. Sanjay Gupta now with some heart-healthy advice. Sanjay great to see you. What's the advice?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, first of all he's doing well. He's recovering well, even taking some food now.

Doctors pointed out that he had 90 percent of blockage in this arteries. Pretty significant. They say you know he was the president of the United States, he was governor, how could this happen to him? And is there a lesson in there for all of us? You know, is that indigestion really chest pain? Should we all be getting testing, you know?

Former president Clinton had this to say on that topic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think if people have a family history there and high cholesterol and high blood pressure, they ought to consider the angiogram even if they don't have the symptoms I had -- that if there is some chance of damage there but it's like one in 1,000 and I really think it probably saved my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: He is talking about the fact that the angiogram prophylactically before you develop symptoms.

WALLACE: But is that good advice? Should people be thinking about or requesting angiograms from their doctors?

GUPTA: I think most doctors would say no. He sort of alluded to it a little bit but there is a risk with these procedures as well. Most doctors consider the angiogram, also called the heart catherization really as a pre-operative test when you really think that the patient you're ordering test on needs the operation.

But there are other tests out there that are gaining some more popularity. First of all there's EKGs and stress tests. People know about those. But I also went and myself had this test called and EBT test, and electron beam tomography. What this is -- first of all it's completely non-invasive, there's no needle, pokes or anything like that.

And they actually quick scan your heart looking for any blockages in your heart.

Now a lot of doctors think that this is a somewhat controversial as well in Kelly that it gives you a false sense of security perhaps. It tells you that you're OK when you may not be OK. But still you're going to start to see a lot of tests like this emerge probably.

WALLACE: All right what about if people feel OK, they're getting their blood pressure checked by their doctor or elsewhere. What are the numbers that should make them concerned to call their doctor?

GUPTA: People do like numbers.

WALLACE: They do. Everybody wants to know exactly what to do if -- those numbers.

GUPTA: You hear about the blood pressure and cholesterol. The guidelines have changed a little bit but here they are for now. High blood pressure really considered higher than 140 over 90. 140 being the top number, 90 being the lower number.

As low as 120 over 80 is normal blood pressure. Now in between that range is something called pre-hypertension. Lot of doctors say you should make some significant lifestyle changes to bring it down. Cholesterol another number that a lot of people focus on. 200 is the upper edge of normal.

You want -- a lot of doctors suggest even lower than that. There's also something called the LDL so called bad cholesterol. You want to bring that number down below 130, below 129.

WALLACE: Good advice for all our viewers watching. Sanjay, great to see you in person. GUPTA: Yes, good to be out of the rain.

WALLACE: Yes, I guess so. Thanks so much.

Bill, back to you.

HEMMER: The former president is going to have to watch his diet, we know that, but he may not have to give up his favorite barbecue joint, McLard's in Hot Springs, Arkansas. The owner says he's going to have a cardiologist help him develop a low-carb menu item that'll help keep the former president coming back.

In the meantime, we'll take McLard's, won't we Sanjay? Back here in a moment, breaking news involving one of the nation's biggest airlines. We are "Minding Your Business" in a moment. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: And welcome back everyone. Tough news already breaking this morning for Delta Airlines. Gerri Willis working this morning for Andy, "Minding Your Business" back with us today. What's Delta saying?

GERRI WILLIS, FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've got some bad news in from Delta today. They're going to have layoffs of as many as 6,000 to 7,000 workers; some of these could be white-collar employees.

Delta today saying that bankruptcy is a possibility. They would join United in Chapter 11 reorganization if that were the case. USAir has come out of Chapter 11.

Interesting here, Bill, they're saying they are going to de-hub Dallas and Ft. Worth, meaning take them out of their hub system, which is very dramatic and I've never really seen that before.

More broadly they're talking about two to three billion dollars in annual savings, which they will achieve of course and some of these layoffs and also because they're going to have increased employee contributions to help.

HEMMER: Interesting -- so you come out of Dallas but you stay in Atlanta, you stay in Salt Lake, you stay in Cincinnati and their low cost carrier, Song, is starting to get more and more attention.

Can Delta use Song as a fall back to keep from going out of business?

WILLIS: It's a great question. You know the low-cost carriers have really made important strides. They've taken a lot of business away from the main line carriers, whether you're looking at JetBlue or others -- Song, also. But you know their discounts, the major airlines, is slowly becoming smaller and smaller, as they step up their prices.

HEMMER: All right, let's talk about fast food surveillance. What's happening there?

(LAUGHTER)

You know the drive through? You know they always get you in the drive through, Gerri.

WILLIS: You know I've heard this story first. You know, OK, what do they do, they put cameras on top of the restaurant. Big deal, like this is a big technology breakthrough? I don't think so. Check out this video here.

Here's the surprising thing. They're actually translating that information into orders. So they see the Beemer coming through, they're saying, ah, we know that's chicken mcnuggets every time and putting the orders through two to three minutes ahead of what would normally happen.

HEMMER: Does it work?

WILLIS: They're saying they're getting a good response. I think it's funny. I -- you know -- pretty soon they're going to be able to tell you know where your kid goes to school and how much money you have available in your IRA to convert. I don't know.

HEMMER: You can always get you in the drive through. Thank you, Gerri. Here's Kelly.

WALLACE: Big Brother is watching. Well Jack is off this week so no "Cafferty File" but we do have the "Toure Experience."

TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: Experience. Show and Tell time, people. I want to talk about a few things that are making me happy these days. When I get a good book I'm just like happy and I just hold it and so first we've got -- we're going to do two books, two movies and Dave Chappelle.

First we've got the new issue of "McSweeney's Quarterly Concern," which is a first-rate literary periodical. This issue is a tribute to graphic novels, making it -- which is essentially a comic book for adults, making it the greatest adult comic book of all time. It's really fun, it's really beautiful. Art Spiegelman is in here, Chris Weir -- it's coming apart but it's...

WALLACE: I'll be your assistant here.

TOURE: Thank you, darling. We also have "Persepolis 2 ", by Marjane Satrapi, also a graphic novel. Very personal memoir of her life as an exiled Iranian living in Paris and then her adult return to Iran.

She had her first book a couple of years ago, Persepolis, about her childhood in Iran and leaving, being exiled.

Turning the corner to movies, if you haven't seen "Heroes" starring Jet Li, what are you doing? Don't walk, run. It's gorgeously shot, it's beautifully told, it's a story of a warrior in ancient China trying to assassinate the emperor. It's the same story told three times in three different ways. It's so much fun. It's the best of the post-"Crouching Tiger" movies we've seen yet.

If you haven't seen the "Brown Bunny" by Vincent Gallo...

HEMMER: Run, don't walk.

(LAUGHTER)

TOURE: Well, critics are calling this one the worst film of all time. Valuable only for a real sex scene between Chloe Sevigny and Vincent Gallo, but you've got to suffer the whole darn movie to get to the sex scene, so I don't know.

And finally why not just stay at home this weekend and watch Dave Chappelle's new stand up on Showtime? He's an expert storyteller; he's one of the hottest comedians in America. He's telling lots of great jokes that I can't repeat on TV including a killer bit about being terrorized on a bus by a homeless man who is pleasuring himself and a great bit about his 3-year-old son who makes a necklace out of macaroni and string, which makes Chappelle cry.

And when his son says Daddy are you sad he says no, this is amazing. You used to live inside of me and now you're making macaroni necklaces! You're awesome. It's so funny.

WALLACE: Toure, it's morning television.

TOURE: I know. All this was OK'd. Kelly's nervous.

HEMMER: Thank you, Toure. Get a break here in a moment. No doubt about it, the gloves off now campaign 2004. A big speech today -- in fact, this hour -- for John Kerry swinging on the issue of Iraq. A look at that. Top of the hour back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired September 8, 2004 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back everyone. It's not New York City; it's Gotham today. Batman is going to be crawling out on the streets here sometime very soon. Frances -- feeling the effects -- here in the Northeast.
Kelly Wallace with us again today. Good morning to you.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you.

HEMMER: An awful lot of news to talk about on the campaigns, on both sides. The vice president's comments on terrorism; the U.S. deaths in Iraq, a record deficit. Kamber and May join us in a few moments to talk about those issues.

WALLACE: Also, Bill, we're turning our attention to the Scott Peterson trial. Turning to questions of DNA evidence. We'll look at what the statements do to prove a key point in the case when we talk to a former prosecutor about the difficulty that comes with this kind of evidence.

HEMMER: All right also at 8:30 here in New York City want to get back to Daryn Kagan for the headlines there. Daryn, good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning once again, Bill. The third anniversary of 9/11 terror attacks is approaching. There is growing pressure on Congress to pass intelligence reforms. Within the half hour, President Bush will meet with key leaders from the intelligence community.

They are expected to discuss which policies should be enacted and in what time frame.

Meanwhile former President Jimmy Carter is accusing Senator Zell Miller of unprecedented disloyalty. In a letter sent over the weekend, Mr. Carter blasted the Democratic senator's keynote address at the Republican convention, calling it, quote, "rabid and mean spirited."

Miller responded by saying the security of his family outweighs any loyalty to the Democratic Party.

The U.S. wants the United Nations to take action against the Sudanese government. More than a million people there have fled their homes in Sudan's Darfur region and up to 50,000 others were killed there in the past 18 months of conflict.

The U.S. says it will introduce a new draft resolution to the U.N. Security Council later today.

Interest rates are likely to go up again. Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan will speak to the House Budget Committee two hours from now. Financial analysts are betting that Greenspan will say the economy is growing and that the Federal Reserve will pick the rate up at its next meeting in about three weeks. Back to you in New York.

HEMMER: All right Daryn, thanks for that.

Time for Kamber and May now and an awful lot to cover on the campaign trail.

From Washington, with us Democratic strategist Victor Kamber. Welcome back, Vic, and good morning to you.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Pleasure, Bill.

HEMMER: Also Cliff May, former RNC communications director, now with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and, Cliff, good morning to you, as well.

Cliff, want to start with you. The comments from Dick Cheney about who fights a better war on terror -- if John Kerry wins in January he believes that the pre-9/11 mindset would now start to take over the country yet again.

John Edwards strikes back -- said these are scare tactics and un- American. Where do we stand on this debate, Cliff?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Oh, look, I wish that the rhetoric was not so charged. We should have a civil debate over what kind of war we're involved in and how we should fight it.

That said; there's a serious question here that both sides do need to address. Are we in a World War, or is this a criminal justice problem that we have to tackle in that way as we did before 9/11 and rather than say oh, that was unfair comment let's debate the real issues and that's what the issue really is...

HEMMER: Are the issues then, Victor, are the issues getting muddy then? If the debate is not civil?

KAMBER: Well, no question about it. I mean, it's interesting for Cliff to say let's debate the real issues. This issue was raised by Dick Cheney. Ironically, by the way, he really never said that the -- voting for the right person was George Bush. I sort of thought he meant when you say voting for the right person, he was talking about John Kerry, and I felt bad for George Bush that he was trashing his own candidate.

Having said that, half-jokingly, obviously the issues need to be addressed, not these scare tactics and that's all it was. It was trying to, you know, scare the American people into believe there's only one way to vote. I'm where Cliff is. Let's talk issues, and frankly, probably, the first time that's really going to happen is when the two of them are on stage and confronting each other.

HEMMER: You're probably exactly right about that on the debates. Let's talk to the second topic right now. A thousand dead Americans now in battle going back 17 months. Victor, how is this playing now on the trail with John Kerry talking again today about Iraq in about an hour in Cincinnati?

KAMBER: Well, again, you know, I'm not one that really wants to sit here and certainly not gloat. It's a sad day for America. I don't care who is president to have lost one life, ten lives, 100 lives and now 1,000 lives. It's a very sad day.

Seven thousand plus injured and more importantly no end in sight for this. You know hopefully these young men and women haven't died in vain but at this point we don't know. There is no plan to get out of Iraq, to stabilize the country in the way that was promised to us.

And it's a very sad day for America.

HEMMER: Answers, Cliff?

MAY: Yes, it's terrible but we've never fought a war in which there wasn't loss of life. If we'd gone into Afghanistan in the 1990s we probably would have lost this many lives but we would have prevented 9/11 and we would have killed al Qaeda long before it became the menace it has become. If you believe that this is a real war fighting and that the war on terrorism and the totalitarian ideologies behind terrorism is being fought in Iraq as much as anywhere else then you understand we have to do this and we'll be there for the duration.

If you don't think so, if you think that Iraq has nothing to do with it and I disagree with that and I think Senator Kerry disagrees with that view, then obviously you are very skeptical of what we're doing in Iraq. But what are you saying that it's 1,000 lives and if we get to 2,000 lives we're going to surrender, we're going to give up, we're going to abandon the Iraqis?

A war is a terrible thing but we're at war.

KAMBER: No, what I'm really saying is that at one life or 100 or ten lives whatever -- or now 1,000 there has to be some accountability on the part of the leadership who called into question. And it's part of that same debate and you're right. There has to be a question. Was this worth it? Did it make -- accomplish anything and again I guess that will be when they confront each other.

MAY: I'm not sure I know what you mean. After Pearl Harbor six months a year into World War II...

KAMBER: Pearl Harbor, we were attacked...

MAY: Would you say? KAMBER: We were attacked and lost American lives. We were attacked at 9/11 there's no question, but there's no, absolutely no correlation between Iraq and 9/11.

MAY: This is the main debate we're having. I believe that after 9/11, we had to measure the menace of Saddam Hussein very differently and we had to do something about him before he fulfilled the intentions he clearly stated he had. I wish we had done that in Afghanistan.

KAMBER: Our obligation was the Osama bin Laden and he's still around. No need to go into Afghanistan -- and -- well...

MAY: This is the debate. This is the debate. I don't think we're at war with -- I don't think we're at war with Osama bin Laden. I think we're at war with the totalitarian ideologies that justify and drive terrorism and that Saddam Hussein is part of.

KAMBER: But that's not the basis we went to war, Cliff. It's 17 months later; we were promised weapons of mass destruction; we were promised that it was tied in to 9/11. Now we're redirecting our issues on another -- and it may be very valid but another issue.

HEMMER: I'm almost out of time. Cliff, final word.

MAY: Those who favored the intervention in Iraq did so for multiple reasons. Those who opposed it also believed that stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction would be found.

On 9/11, it was box cutters and airplanes, not weapons of mass destruction that did the damage.

HEMMER: All right we've got to go. Victor, thanks. Cliff May as well in D.C. Kelly.

WALLACE: Thanks, Bill, and moving ahead to Scott Peterson's double murder trial the focus now is on DNA, specifically a hair found in a pair of pliers on Peterson's boat.

Prosecutors say it came from Laci Peterson's body but proving it is proving difficult.

Dean Johnson, former San Mateo County prosecutor, joins us now from Redwood City, California. Good morning Mr. Johnson, thanks for being with us.

DEAN JOHNSON, FMR. SAN MATEO COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Good morning, thank you.

WALLACE: Let's get right to it. This evidence of the pliers. A key piece of evidence for the prosecution but it does appear the prosecution losing ground a bit with this. What's going on?

JOHNSON: Well, it certainly does. This piece of -- a pair of pliers with what appears to be Laci's hair has been a central point in the prosecution's case. The theory being that Scott Peterson had used these pliers to cut chicken wire which the prosecution would say was used to wrap Laci's dead body.

Now their own expert testifies that this particular pair of pliers never was used to cut that chicken wire, so now were used -- now are left with a pair of pliers in a boat and no apparent connection to the murder, no indication as to why the prosecution thinks that this pair of pliers and this single strand of hair help us solve the murder of Laci Peterson.

WALLACE: But what about, Mr. Johnson, that single piece of hair? Obviously going to be a focus today including DNA evidence. What can we expect? Well, again, another hurdle for the prosecution to overcome.

You know we've all been educated to believe that DNA is the be- all and end-all of identification evidence. This is not the nuclear DNA, which is the more common type of DNA.

It's what we call mitochondrial. It carries less information. The techniques for extracting it are more controversial. But, probably the prosecution can get to the point where it's expert will say that yes this hair is consistent with being that of Laci Peterson's and inconsistent with being other people's such as, say, Scott Peterson.

So the jury could infer that it's Laci Peterson's hair. We're still, however, left with how does that connect to the murder?

WALLACE: As you know, things got very emotional in court yesterday. A friend testifying talking about the last time she saw Laci Peterson alive. We have a photograph of that; it was a Christmas party. She was 8 1/2 months pregnant. How did the jurors react to that?

JOHNSON: Well, I think the jurors found this heart-rending. We heard a story of Laci who was tired, who was 8 months pregnant, who struggled to get into her Christmas outfit that she has bought, to go to her Christmas party, only to find that Scott Peterson was giving her an excuse that he couldn't show up at all, saying that there was some business reason why he couldn't be at the party.

Of course the jurors all know now that the real reason he couldn't show up at that party was because he was with his mistress, Amber Frey.

WALLACE: And we know the prosecution expected to call Lee Peterson, Scott Peterson's dad, to the stand. Lee Peterson saying he would stake his own life on his son's innocence.

What can we expect? How soon do you think he might be on the stand for the prosecution?

JOHNSON: Well, we don't know. There have been rumors around for about two days that Lee Peterson was going to be called as one of these gap-filling witnesses to talk about the fact that Scott had never told him that he bought a fishing boat. We don't know now when Lee Peterson will appear. Certainly not this week since the rest of this week's testimony will be taken up with the mitochondrial DNA expert. Once again, it's very difficult to see how Lee Peterson, who is devoutly committed to his son's innocence will help the prosecution.

WALLACE: Dean Johnson, we have to leave it there. We will all be watching.

Dean Johnson, former San Mateo County prosecutor, thanks for getting up early with us today.

JOHNSON: Thank you, my pleasure.

HEMMER: All right. Frances in the past now, a rainmaker here in the Northeast but there is Ivan out there and a strong storm at that. Category Four.

(WEATHER REPORT)

WALLACE: Well, still to come right here on AMERICAN MORNING, for those of you who think fast food isn't fast enough, meet hyperactive Bob. We are "Minding Your Business."

HEMMER: Also in a moment, former President Bill Clinton knew when it was time to talk to his doctors about his heart. Do you? We're "Paging Dr. Gupta" in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Well, doctors who operated on former President Bill Clinton say he looked healthy but was actually on the verge of a substantial heart attack.

So is there a lesson here for all of us? Dr. Sanjay Gupta now with some heart-healthy advice. Sanjay great to see you. What's the advice?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, first of all he's doing well. He's recovering well, even taking some food now.

Doctors pointed out that he had 90 percent of blockage in this arteries. Pretty significant. They say you know he was the president of the United States, he was governor, how could this happen to him? And is there a lesson in there for all of us? You know, is that indigestion really chest pain? Should we all be getting testing, you know?

Former president Clinton had this to say on that topic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think if people have a family history there and high cholesterol and high blood pressure, they ought to consider the angiogram even if they don't have the symptoms I had -- that if there is some chance of damage there but it's like one in 1,000 and I really think it probably saved my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: He is talking about the fact that the angiogram prophylactically before you develop symptoms.

WALLACE: But is that good advice? Should people be thinking about or requesting angiograms from their doctors?

GUPTA: I think most doctors would say no. He sort of alluded to it a little bit but there is a risk with these procedures as well. Most doctors consider the angiogram, also called the heart catherization really as a pre-operative test when you really think that the patient you're ordering test on needs the operation.

But there are other tests out there that are gaining some more popularity. First of all there's EKGs and stress tests. People know about those. But I also went and myself had this test called and EBT test, and electron beam tomography. What this is -- first of all it's completely non-invasive, there's no needle, pokes or anything like that.

And they actually quick scan your heart looking for any blockages in your heart.

Now a lot of doctors think that this is a somewhat controversial as well in Kelly that it gives you a false sense of security perhaps. It tells you that you're OK when you may not be OK. But still you're going to start to see a lot of tests like this emerge probably.

WALLACE: All right what about if people feel OK, they're getting their blood pressure checked by their doctor or elsewhere. What are the numbers that should make them concerned to call their doctor?

GUPTA: People do like numbers.

WALLACE: They do. Everybody wants to know exactly what to do if -- those numbers.

GUPTA: You hear about the blood pressure and cholesterol. The guidelines have changed a little bit but here they are for now. High blood pressure really considered higher than 140 over 90. 140 being the top number, 90 being the lower number.

As low as 120 over 80 is normal blood pressure. Now in between that range is something called pre-hypertension. Lot of doctors say you should make some significant lifestyle changes to bring it down. Cholesterol another number that a lot of people focus on. 200 is the upper edge of normal.

You want -- a lot of doctors suggest even lower than that. There's also something called the LDL so called bad cholesterol. You want to bring that number down below 130, below 129.

WALLACE: Good advice for all our viewers watching. Sanjay, great to see you in person. GUPTA: Yes, good to be out of the rain.

WALLACE: Yes, I guess so. Thanks so much.

Bill, back to you.

HEMMER: The former president is going to have to watch his diet, we know that, but he may not have to give up his favorite barbecue joint, McLard's in Hot Springs, Arkansas. The owner says he's going to have a cardiologist help him develop a low-carb menu item that'll help keep the former president coming back.

In the meantime, we'll take McLard's, won't we Sanjay? Back here in a moment, breaking news involving one of the nation's biggest airlines. We are "Minding Your Business" in a moment. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: And welcome back everyone. Tough news already breaking this morning for Delta Airlines. Gerri Willis working this morning for Andy, "Minding Your Business" back with us today. What's Delta saying?

GERRI WILLIS, FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've got some bad news in from Delta today. They're going to have layoffs of as many as 6,000 to 7,000 workers; some of these could be white-collar employees.

Delta today saying that bankruptcy is a possibility. They would join United in Chapter 11 reorganization if that were the case. USAir has come out of Chapter 11.

Interesting here, Bill, they're saying they are going to de-hub Dallas and Ft. Worth, meaning take them out of their hub system, which is very dramatic and I've never really seen that before.

More broadly they're talking about two to three billion dollars in annual savings, which they will achieve of course and some of these layoffs and also because they're going to have increased employee contributions to help.

HEMMER: Interesting -- so you come out of Dallas but you stay in Atlanta, you stay in Salt Lake, you stay in Cincinnati and their low cost carrier, Song, is starting to get more and more attention.

Can Delta use Song as a fall back to keep from going out of business?

WILLIS: It's a great question. You know the low-cost carriers have really made important strides. They've taken a lot of business away from the main line carriers, whether you're looking at JetBlue or others -- Song, also. But you know their discounts, the major airlines, is slowly becoming smaller and smaller, as they step up their prices.

HEMMER: All right, let's talk about fast food surveillance. What's happening there?

(LAUGHTER)

You know the drive through? You know they always get you in the drive through, Gerri.

WILLIS: You know I've heard this story first. You know, OK, what do they do, they put cameras on top of the restaurant. Big deal, like this is a big technology breakthrough? I don't think so. Check out this video here.

Here's the surprising thing. They're actually translating that information into orders. So they see the Beemer coming through, they're saying, ah, we know that's chicken mcnuggets every time and putting the orders through two to three minutes ahead of what would normally happen.

HEMMER: Does it work?

WILLIS: They're saying they're getting a good response. I think it's funny. I -- you know -- pretty soon they're going to be able to tell you know where your kid goes to school and how much money you have available in your IRA to convert. I don't know.

HEMMER: You can always get you in the drive through. Thank you, Gerri. Here's Kelly.

WALLACE: Big Brother is watching. Well Jack is off this week so no "Cafferty File" but we do have the "Toure Experience."

TOURE, CONTRIBUTING EDITOR, "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE: Experience. Show and Tell time, people. I want to talk about a few things that are making me happy these days. When I get a good book I'm just like happy and I just hold it and so first we've got -- we're going to do two books, two movies and Dave Chappelle.

First we've got the new issue of "McSweeney's Quarterly Concern," which is a first-rate literary periodical. This issue is a tribute to graphic novels, making it -- which is essentially a comic book for adults, making it the greatest adult comic book of all time. It's really fun, it's really beautiful. Art Spiegelman is in here, Chris Weir -- it's coming apart but it's...

WALLACE: I'll be your assistant here.

TOURE: Thank you, darling. We also have "Persepolis 2 ", by Marjane Satrapi, also a graphic novel. Very personal memoir of her life as an exiled Iranian living in Paris and then her adult return to Iran.

She had her first book a couple of years ago, Persepolis, about her childhood in Iran and leaving, being exiled.

Turning the corner to movies, if you haven't seen "Heroes" starring Jet Li, what are you doing? Don't walk, run. It's gorgeously shot, it's beautifully told, it's a story of a warrior in ancient China trying to assassinate the emperor. It's the same story told three times in three different ways. It's so much fun. It's the best of the post-"Crouching Tiger" movies we've seen yet.

If you haven't seen the "Brown Bunny" by Vincent Gallo...

HEMMER: Run, don't walk.

(LAUGHTER)

TOURE: Well, critics are calling this one the worst film of all time. Valuable only for a real sex scene between Chloe Sevigny and Vincent Gallo, but you've got to suffer the whole darn movie to get to the sex scene, so I don't know.

And finally why not just stay at home this weekend and watch Dave Chappelle's new stand up on Showtime? He's an expert storyteller; he's one of the hottest comedians in America. He's telling lots of great jokes that I can't repeat on TV including a killer bit about being terrorized on a bus by a homeless man who is pleasuring himself and a great bit about his 3-year-old son who makes a necklace out of macaroni and string, which makes Chappelle cry.

And when his son says Daddy are you sad he says no, this is amazing. You used to live inside of me and now you're making macaroni necklaces! You're awesome. It's so funny.

WALLACE: Toure, it's morning television.

TOURE: I know. All this was OK'd. Kelly's nervous.

HEMMER: Thank you, Toure. Get a break here in a moment. No doubt about it, the gloves off now campaign 2004. A big speech today -- in fact, this hour -- for John Kerry swinging on the issue of Iraq. A look at that. Top of the hour back in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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