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Lou Dobbs Tonight
More fighting, more car bombs in Iraq; Bipartisan group tells Congress Slow Down Intelligence Reform; President Bush attacks Senator Kerry on Iraq policy; Senator Kerry attacks President Bush on Social Security
Aired September 22, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, violence sweeps across Baghdad. American troops are on the offensive, insurgents explode car bombs on crowded Baghdad streets, and the terrorists threaten to behead another Western hostage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: You can't negotiate with these kinds of terrorists. You can't give in to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: A bipartisan group of former secretaries of state and defense tells Congress to slow down on intelligence reform. One of those who testified before the Senate is Henry Kissinger. He's our guest tonight.
Three million illegal aliens will enter this country this year. As many as 12 million are already here. So why all the talk of amnesty? We'll have a special report.
And an exclusive report on what the governments of the United States and Mexico had hoped would be a secret agreement, an agreement that would encourage millions more illegal aliens to enter this country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CA: If we spend more money and we provide more benefits to illegal immigrants, there will be more illegal immigrants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Congressman Dana Rohrabacher says the agreement could bankrupt our Social Security system. Congressman Rohrabacher is my guest.
And one of this country's largest and most dynamic cities faces the prospect of bankruptcy. Tonight, we'll have a special report from San Diego, California.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, September 22. Here now, for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs. DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight some of the heaviest fighting in Baghdad in weeks. American troops supported by tanks and aircraft today went on the offensive in eastern Baghdad. They killed at least 10 people. They wounded nearly 100 others. Elsewhere in the city of Baghdad, insurgents exploded two massive car bombs. Three Americans were killed in the fighting today. Kitty Pilgrim has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A fiery blast, a car bomb killed more than a dozen people in one part of Baghdad. In another, a car bomb wounded several U.S. soldiers, killing one. In Samarra, a fierce battle in which 14 insurgents were killed. The Shi'ite neighborhood in Baghdad known as Sadr City the site of fierce fighting. Two U.S. soldiers lost their lives today in Tikrit and Mosul.
The headless body of American Jack Hensley was found and identified in Baghdad. He was the second American hostage killed. And now there is new video of the third hostage, Kenneth Bigley of Britain, pleading for his life.
Hours after, a group headed by Abu Musab al Zarqawi boasted of the killing. Iraqis said three detainees, including the woman known as "Dr. Germ" and her husband, Iraq's former oil minister, would be released soon.
As the violence continues, there is a desperate urgency to train more Iraqis for their own security forces.
KASIM DAOUD, IRAQI MIN. FOR MILITARY AFFAIRS (through translator): The Iraqi forces are trying, especially the national guard. They are confronted by fierce fighting, by snipers, and the Iraqi forces are fighting back against these forces.
PILGRIM: But today, as young men lined up outside a police recruiting station and an ice cream parlor where they gather, one of the car bombs targeted them, killing 12, wounding more than 50 people in the area.
U.S. secretary of state Colin Powell today talked about not letting insurgents cross over the Syrian border.
POWELL: I hope that the Syrians now understand the need for all of us to do as much as we can in a tripartite manner -- Syria, the Iraqi interim government and the coalition -- to stop illicit, improper traffic across that border.
PILGRIM: Powell said today that Iraqi prime minister Ayad Allawi will visit Syria soon to discuss the issue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And NATO finally reached agreement to set up a military training academy in Iraq, but France and Belgium have been holding up that agreement because of fears they would be asked to pay for it. In the end, there was agreement to boost NATO presence from 40 people to 300 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Not exactly what one would call overwhelming force.
PILGRIM: Not exactly.
DOBBS: Kitty, thanks. Kitty Pilgrim.
President Bush again today focused on Iraq in the election campaign. President Bush stepped up his offensive against Senator John Kerry. He accused Senator Kerry of threatening the morale of American troops in Iraq. The Bush-Cheney campaign also launched a new attack against Senator Kerry in the newest ads. Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president tonight and has the report from Latrobe, Pennsylvania -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, President Bush wrapping up two days of high-stakes diplomacy, again turning his attention back to the campaign in this critical state of Pennsylvania. With less than six weeks away from the election, the strategy here is to focus on his domestic agenda, to highlight that, but at the same time, to make the case as often as possible, despite what happens on the ground in Iraq, the administration is on the right course, that it was the right thing to do to invade that country, that this is not the time to change the commander-in-chief.
The president also very much aware, however, that he has -- he's engaged in a delicate balancing act, that he also has to acknowledge the difficulties on the ground, earlier today, President Bush, in fact, acknowledging the two -- the beheadings of two American hostages in the last two days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're doing hard work in Iraq right now. It's hard to help a country go from tyranny to elections, to peace, when there are a handful of people who are willing to kill in order to stop the process. And that's what you're seeing on the TV screens. You know, they -- these people cannot beat us militarily, and so they use the only tool at their disposal, which is beheadings and death, to try to shake our will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The president taking on, of course, the characterization of his opponent, his opponent saying that the president is engaged in a "fantasyland of spin." The Bush campaign is fighting back. Of course, they have been saying that Senator Kerry's positions on Iraq are inconsistent, that that makes him not qualified to be commander-in-chief, a controversy erupting, Lou, over the latest Bush campaign ad, called "wind-surfing," that shows Senator Kerry wind-surfing, and it says that his position on Iraq is blowing in the wind. Now, the Bush campaign is defending this, saying perhaps it's a light-hearted way of demonstrating a very serious issue, what they say are the inconsistencies of Kerry's position, the Kerry campaign putting out its own ad, as well, saying that they just believe this whole thing is very juvenile and that the Bush administration is not taking those threats inside of Iraq seriously.
And finally, I should let you know, Lou, of course, tomorrow President Bush is going to be standing side by side with the prime minister of Iraq, Ayad Allawi, at the White House, in the Rose Garden, to take questions, but also to show that they are a united front, that they believe that they're in the right direction when it comes to Iraq policy -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you, reporting from Latrobe, Pennsylvania, with the president.
As Suzanne reported, the Kerry-Edwards campaign immediately counterattacked the Republican ad. In fact, the Democrats launched their own ad accusing the Republicans of what they termed "juvenile" and "tasteless" advertising.
Senator Kerry today campaigned in Florida, and he campaigned on the issue of Social Security. Bob Franken reports from West Palm Beach.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the world of campaigns, Social Security is known as "the third rail." Touching it is political death. John Kerry is hoping to apply that to President Bush's support for a plan that would partially privatize Social Security.
KERRY: Let me make it clear. I will never privatize Social Security ever. Ever. Ever.
FRANKEN: In West Palm Beach, where an elderly population keeps a wary eye on Social Security, Kerry cited a new study by a University of Chicago business professor claiming the financial services industry, one of the largest sectors contributing to the Bush campaign, would reap a $900 billion-plus bonanza over 75 years from administering private accounts. And the study says seniors could be hit with a drop of up to 45 percent in benefits, at a cost over 10 years to the treasury of $2 trillion. The author of the study is an informal adviser to the Kerry campaign.
A Bush campaign spokesman called Kerry's record on Social Security a raw deal, contending he has voted eight times for higher taxes on benefits. Kerry insists his solutions, when fully developed, will take care of retirees, not campaign contributors.
KERRY: My approach is not to cut the benefits, not to raise the retirement age, it's to be fiscally responsible and fix the economy of our country.
FRANKEN: An emphasis on Social Security is a tried-and-true campaign tactic for Democrats, and an important one.
(on camera): Retirees, by definition, have time to vote, and they do, particularly when they perceive a threat to what pays for at least part of that retirement, Social Security. Bob Franken, CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Certainly, one issue that is rarely, if ever, discussed in this presidential campaign is what has become an invasion of illegal aliens into this country. Just last week, "Time" magazine in its cover story reported three million illegal aliens will enter the United States this year. At least 12 million are already living here. And incredibly, many lawmakers in Congress, Democrats and Republicans, want to give most of those illegal aliens amnesty. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's been eight months since President Bush proposed sweeping immigration reforms, including a guest worker program.
BUSH: Out of common sense and fairness, our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country and fill jobs that Americans are not filling.
WIAN: It angered many fellow Republicans, and on the southern border, resulted in a flood of illegal aliens lured by a perceived opportunity to stay in the United States legally.
ROSEMARY JENKS, NUMBERS USA: The public reaction to President Bush's proposal in January of this year was hugely negative. I don't think anyone in the administration or in Congress expected that much of a negative response, and there was an absolute outcry.
WIAN: Even though the idea flopped, at least a dozen similar bills are still alive in Congress, sponsored by members from across the political spectrum, from Arizona Republican John McCain to Massachusetts Democrat Ted Kennedy. One bill, called Ag Jobs, would allow 860,000 illegal alien farm workers plus their families to first apply for temporary residency and eventually citizenship. Several would give amnesty to as many as 10 million of the nation's estimated 12 million illegals. Most of the bills, including one sponsored by Illinois Democrat Luis Gutierrez, have been put on the back burner for now.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: I had very high hopes, great expectations, that the president would spend some political capital in moving this forward.
WIAN: He also holds little hope for either the Ag Jobs bill or the Dream Act, which would legalize public high school graduates.
Costs of the bills are hard to quantify, but it's clear that legal status would lead to increased use of government benefits by illegal aliens and accelerate a downward pressure on wages.
(on camera): Opponents of the amnesty bills say it's unlikely any will pass this year because of the upcoming election. The real danger, they say, comes next year, when both political parties will be less concerned about voter backlash. Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight: A deadly suicide attack rocks downtown Jerusalem, the first attack in weeks. We'll have that story. Also tonight, former secretary of state Henry Kissinger will be here. He and other former secretaries of state and defense, a bipartisan group, say the rush to reform intelligence could be a costly mistake. He is our guest. And "The Great American Giveaway," millions of illegal aliens living and working in this country could be given Social Security benefits at a cost of billions of dollars to American taxpayers. We'll have that special report on what two governments hoped would be a secret deal. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, another deadly attack in the Middle East. A radical Islamist terrorist blew herself up in Jerusalem and killed two Israeli policemen. The police officers were trying to stop the 18- year-old bomber as she walked toward a crowded bus stop. Sixteen people were wounded in the explosion.
Also today, Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon said Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza strip will begin not early next year, but next summer, as originally planned. Sharon's deputy prime minister, Silvan Shalom, is our guest here tomorrow evening.
The United States has reached an agreement to release enemy combatant and U.S. citizen Yasser Hamdi. Hamdi will return to Saudi Arabia, where he was raised and where he must renounce any claims that he has to U.S. citizenship. Hamdi was captured with the Taliban in Afghanistan three years ago. He has been held in U.S. custody ever since. The Supreme Court ruled in June that Hamdi has the right to challenge his detention because no charges have been filed against him.
As the world fights radical Islamist terrorism, lawmakers in this country are considering the most sweeping intelligence reform in half a century. But a bipartisan group of former secretaries of state and defense is urging Congress to delay the implementation of any reforms until after the presidential election. That group includes former secretary of state and national security adviser Henry Kissinger. Dr. Kissinger joins me now.
Good to have you with us.
HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Good to be here.
DOBBS: You, Democratic-appointed secretaries of state and defense, all saying that this is a rush to judgment, or at least a rush to implementation. Why are you so concerned?
KISSINGER: Both Republican and Democratic-appointed secretaries. We have seen the national security machinery operate, and we think that such a dramatic reform, which creates a totally new layer and which raises questions about the operation of the existing institutions, should not be passed in the two weeks that are remaining and in the middle of an election campaign. They should be considered carefully and should be put to the Congress early next year.
And several of the reforms have already been carried out, but the fundamental ones, which change the entire structure and which elevate a national intelligence director to a near cabinet level, would bring about such a change, both in the civil procedures, as well as in the NSC procedures, that we think it ought to be considered more carefully.
DOBBS: As you well know, the 9/11 commission made 41 recommendations to overhaul, to reform this nation's intelligence efforts and agencies. Of those 41, are there any to which you are absolutely opposed, irrespective of whether it's a rushed implementation or not?
KISSINGER: Most of the recommendations I support. The 9/11 commission did an outstanding job in putting together the facts bearing on the tragedy. I, together with the eight or nine other people who signed that statement, have -- have enough questions about several of the recommendations -- the establishment of a national intelligence director, the changing of the lines of command, the creating of double lines of authority -- that we think it should be considered again by a group that is specifically assigned and that has specific experience in this field.
DOBBS: There are two thoughts that sort of follow, at least in my case, to what you're saying, as well as the other secretaries, both the Democrat and Republican. One, the highly respected chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Pat Roberts, points out there have been 38 opportunities for reform, none has resulted in reform.
Secondly, given the fact that Porter Goss, the -- whom the Senate Intelligence Committee has now approved to move forward for his nomination, and his predecessor, all -- George Tenet -- have said that it will take five years or more to have an effective covert service.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age, in which we are in a war, to tolerate an answer like that from the head of such critical agency, that five years, when the -- the national security of this country, the well-being of American citizens is at stake, that we would even tolerate such a discussion? And secondly, why would we not try to improve on what has been a series of failures?
KISSINGER: Of course, we should improve, and none of us question the importance of improving, and all of us agree to some of the recommendations. But it will not make any significant difference in the implementation whether there are six months of additional deliberations. When you create an additional layer between the president and the existing institutions, you then have to uproot a lot of the existing institutions, maybe move it into the office of that new layer. It gets to be an extremely complicated thing.
Secondly, it doesn't make any sense to say that just because it's difficult and it has not been done 32 times before, you have to rush something of this magnitude through in two weeks. I don't mind setting ourselves -- I would recommend setting ourselves a firm deadline of, say, eight months and get a careful examination and get it done by next May.
DOBBS: I take that. But what about the idea of tolerating such a thing as a half decade to have an effective covert force?
KISSINGER: In order to understand that, one has to understand that we've been on a roller-coaster with respect to human intelligence and covert operations. Every 10 years, there's another investigation. All the people get investigated, get -- most of them get thrown out, a new layer comes in. And in order to get -- we're talking about spies. To get them into a high enough position, that takes time. I wouldn't have said five years, but it's not something you can turn off and on. And in any event, it is not affected by the reorganization that now is being talked about.
DOBBS: I want to quickly touch, if I may, Professor Kissinger, on the issue of Iraq. It is an absolute mess, by any characterization, whether one is a Democrat or a Republican. Violence is escalating. More Americans are dying and being wounded. And there is little perceptible progress. What is -- and I'm asking you this in a bipartisan role, as a man who has great scale of intellect and experience. What in the world is this country to do with Iraq?
KISSINGER: The one thing we cannot do is to turn it over to radical extremist Islam because this will undermine all the moderate elements in the Islamic world and it will represent a huge threat to every country with a significant Islamic population. So we must come up with -- we're now at the beginning of a process. We made some mistakes in starting it. We overestimated the ease with which it could be done. But I think this process now must be given a chance to work itself out.
DOBBS: More troops? More money?
KISSINGER: I don't think it takes more troops, and I am not sure -- I doubt that it will take more money, but it takes a strategy in which the -- in which greater security is achieved for the populations, elections take place and some international consensus is formed behind the new government.
DOBBS: Secretary Kissinger, we thank you for being here.
KISSINGER: Good to be here.
DOBBS: Henry Kissinger, good to have you with us.
Still ahead, outrage tonight after a U.S. airline allowed a well- known passenger, a well-known passenger on a terrorist watch list, to, in fact, board one of its flights coming to the United States. We'll have that story. and a controversial plan that would give Social Security benefits to illegal aliens. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher of California -- he's fighting to stop it -- he's my guest tonight. And a widening scandal in one of this country's largest cities, one of its most dynamic cities, could well send San Diego into bankruptcy. We'll have the latest on what is now a criminal investigation. All of that and more, as well as your thoughts, still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now, for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: The Center for Immigration Studies today released a scathing report on a controversial agreement between the United States and Mexico. That agreement could allow millions of illegal aliens in this country to receive Social Security benefits. The State Department is working on the final draft of this deal, which has been kept in secret. Critics of the agreement say that it heavily favors Mexican workers and could cost American taxpayers billions of dollars. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States says Social Security totalization (ph) agreements with 20 countries. They're designed to make sure workers who come here and work get credit for that work back home, so that when they return home, they'll be eligible for their country's pension system. It works for American workers in foreign countries, as well. The pending agreement with Mexico is the exception to those other agreements.
MARTI DINERSTEIN, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: This agreement is a perversion of the existing total of the 20 existing totalization agreements. Few, if any, conditions present in the other agreements exist.
TUCKER: The most obvious is that it would cover more people than any of the other agreements. But a less obvious and potentially more devastating difference centers on the issue of immigration status.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: While it is true that one cannot be illegal at the time that one would be applying for Social Security, prior work done while an illegal is in the country does count for Social Security under the agreement.
TUCKER: How could that happen? If there's any amnesty program or guest worker program which changes illegal status to legal, some estimated six million workers and their dependents would be eligible for Social Security payments.
(on camera): But the agreement with Mexico to become final, it needs to be presented to Congress. But Congress doesn't need to approve it. It can only veto it. And Congress has never vetoed a totalization agreement. Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Congressman Dana Rohrabacher of California is one member of Congress fighting to block that agreement. It's called a totalization agreement. The congressman has introduced a bill that would forbid anyone working in this country illegally from receiving Social Security benefits, and he joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. Congressman, good to have you with us.
ROHRABACHER: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Correct my interpretation if it is wrong -- not only are the American people denied representation on immigration policy in this country, but the effect of a totalization agreement is to deny participation by the U.S. Congress, other than through veto.
ROHRABACHER: I will have to say that this is an undemocratic way of approaching this problem. The threat of illegal immigration, not only just the threat, the effect of illegal immigration today on the American people is devastating, yet we do not have a national debate on this issue. Just a few shows like your own program and others are trying to stimulate that debate. But where are the national parties on this?
We're talking about a health care system that's going to pot. We're talking about education that's -- that's second -- you know, we are -- we -- our education system in California is falling apart because of illegal immigration, and yet now we have a threat to Social Security. This deserves a national debate.
DOBBS: It deserves a national debate. You are one of those, one of the few, speaking out. But the issue is -- isn't reported by "Time" magazine last week, as I said, on its cover story, reporting three million illegal aliens entering this country. You and Congress, your party and the Republican and the Democratic Party, has -- have been absolutely silent. Why...
ROHRABACHER: Both parties.
DOBBS: Why in the world can't the American people, the middle class, working men and women in this country, find representation in the United States Congress? What can be done?
ROHRABACHER: Well, both parties have got very special interests and very big interests that play here. In the Democratic party, the left of liberal wing of the Democratic party, which controls that party, sees the -- this influx of millions, out of control influx, of millions of illegals as potential constituents. It's going to give them political power.
On the other hand, big business, which has an undue influence on the Republican Party, sees this as a way of keeping down wages. And unless the political parties step up and address this issue, I predict that within a year or two, they'll be a third party that will emerge and it will sweep out the existing parties.
DOBBS: I imagine there are a few people asking why in the world do we have to wait when people look at important issues like immigration, they look at border security, national security, in some instances, spending on infrastructure on this country, state of education, we wonder why we need either party because both seem to be about the same? ROHRABACHER: Let me give them this recommendation. There have been four or five votes we've had on illegal immigration over this last year. Several of them were bills I have proposed. The American people are upset with the fact that we have this massive influx that is threatening our way of life and the well being of our people, should look at those votes and see who in Congress voted what way and then kick the scoundrels out who are not doing a good job.
DOBBS: How many scoundrels do you think it is, Congressman?
What would be the sum total?
ROHRABACHER: I would say there are large number of people who are portraying themselves concerned about illegal immigration, who are doing nothing. On the Republican side, and on the Democrat side, frankly, virtually every member of the Democratic Party in Congress votes to protect illegal immigration into our country.
DOBBS: Beyond that, and we will put that voting record up here shortly on our Web site, that will be loudobbs.com, but what else can people do?
Because the frustration -- I know reading the e-mails, the letters from our viewers, there is huge frustration on this issue?
ROHRABACHER: People are not -- people are dying. I mean American citizens are dying because they go into the emergency room and you got an emergency roomful of illegal aliens who shouldn't be there and their loved one does not get the care that they need. Our criminal justice system are letting these criminals who shouldn't be in this country, letting them loose among our population. Now, when we have American citizens who are dying and we have wages that are being kept down that keep our standard of living down, something's terribly wrong if the political system isn't addressing the problem. We need to ask questions of those people who are running for office and ask the tough questions, why didn't you vote this way, this way, or this way on these particular pieces of legislation.
DOBBS: Should we start with President Bush?
ROHRABACHER: I think we should start with every person who holds elected office in this country. And I think it should be a major question in the debates between the two presidential candidates.
DOBBS: Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, we thank you for being here. Thank you, Dana Rohrabacher.
ROHRABACHER: Right.
DOBBS: Disturbing news tonight on airline security. Yusuf Islam, the singer formerly known as Cat Stevens, was allowed to board a United Airline Flight from London to Washington, D.C., despite the fact that his name appears on a federal terror watch list that should have kept him off that aircraft. Once homeland security officials did learn that Islam was on the flight, it was diverted to Bangor, Maine. Yusuf Islam was removed from the aircraft, and he will be returned to London. Government sources say Islam's name was misspelled on the original terror watch list, which they say could explain why United Airlines missed it. Islam was placed on a no-fly list after officials received information that he associates with terrorist groups. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge said United Airlines had the necessary information, but simply failed to act on it. The spokesman for United Airlines did not comment at all.
And that brings us to the subject of "Tonight's Poll." The question, "Do you believe the terrorist watch list should prevent an individual from boarding an aircraft," yes or no? Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Tonight, scandal rocks this nation's seventh largest city. San Diego could be forced into bankruptcy, all of this after a bomb shell discovery in January revealed mismanagement in the city government's pension fund operations. Mismanagement that left the fund more than a billion dollars short. Peter Viles, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK ROBERTS, KFMB TALK RADIO: Broadcasting from America's finest city, San Diego, California.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the talk of San Diego, a fiscal crisis that's both serious and embarrassing.
ROBERTS: America's finest city, once known as the most efficient city in this great nation, now being called Enron by the sea. Quite literally, we're one step away from bankruptcy in the -- in America's seventh largest city.
VILES: The Enron city is the city's pension fund which has been under funded and mismanaged for years. Those big returns from the mid 1990s, the city foolishly spent them on projects like the '96 Republican Convention. What's left is a $1.2 billion hole in the pension fund, a city credit rating suspended by Standard & Poor's, Investigations by the FEC and Justice Department, and growing talk about a bankruptcy filing.
RON ROBERTS, SAN DIEGO MAYORAL CANDIDATE: This city hasn't had an audited in over two years. We don't have any auditive financial statements from 2002, 2003, and none from 2004. There -- the city is very upside down right now, and I think because we don't know, there are people that are speculating that that may be an option.
VILES: Embattled Mayor Dick Murphy up for re-election in six weeks, insists it's a manageable problem.
MAYOR DICK MURPHY, SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA: We are not facing bankruptcy in San Diego, that is the political hyperbolically. We just passed a balance budget with no tax increases. We've got millions in assets. What we have is an underfunded pension plan.
VILES: It took a whistle blower, a financial advisor from La Hoya (ph) to spot the problem and go public with it. DIANN SHIPIONE, SAN DIEGO'S PENSION TRUSTEE: It's challenging to speak the truth in a city that basically is in denial. The problems are extremely large and they're difficult to deal with, so the tendency politically is to not deal with them.
VILES: Like it or not, San Diego will have to deal with this problem for years to come.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Now coming like this happened in the private sector, we'd probably be talking about possible prosecution under the Sarbanes- Oxley Act, that the one that says you have to tell the truth about your financial condition. But that act, Lou, does not apply to public officials -- Lou.
DOBBS: That's incredible. What is the mood of the citizens of San Diego, a spectacularly beautiful city in Southern California.
What is the mood of those people you've had an opportunity to talk with?
VILES: I would say it's a combination of cranky and embarrassed. They're cranky. The city has not raised taxes but is not fully funding this pension either. So there are millions of dollars in nickel and dime fees that people are angry about, notably, $5 for a parent to accompany a child who's swimming in a public pool. The parent doesn't go swimming has to pay $5 to chaperon their son or daughter, Lou.
DOBBS: That would be a fee, not a tax, I take it.
VILES: Exactly.
DOBBS: Peter Viles, we thank you reporting live tonight from San Diego, California.
Just ahead here, another war of words on the presidential campaign trail. Accusations of shameful, tasteless and juvenile attack ads we're talking about. We'll tell you which ones those word place to. We'll be talking with three of the nation's top political journalists next.
And later, it is paperless with no proof. Electronic voting and the upcoming presidential election that stands to be as close many say, if not closer, than the 2000 presidential election. Just how accurate will the results be election night, two opposing views in tonight's "Faceoff." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A fiery exchange today between the presidential campaigns over a new ad from the Bush-Cheney team. The commercial shows Senator John Kerry windsurfing, accuses him of shifting positions with the wind. Kerry spokesman Mike McCurry calls the ad shameful and demands that President Bush repudiate it. The president's campaign declined. Joining me now three of the country's top political journalists, Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent, "TIME" magazine in Washington, D.C. tonight, Roger Simon, political editor of "U.S. News & World Report." He tonight is in San Francisco. E.J. Young, columnist for the "Washington Post" joining us as well from the nation's capital. Thank you all for being here. Are you shocked, Karen, that the Bush-Cheney campaign did not repudiate the ad?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Not at all. Certainly this ad -- they have yet to lose in this campaign in their efforts to turn John Kerry into a figure of ridicule, but I think that this campaign ad may have been a little bit over the top and what I was really struck by was the fact that the Kerry campaign had its response ad ready within four hours of this ad's release.
So they clearly saw this as an opportunity to juxtapose this ad against the very seriousness of what's going on in the world.
DOBBS: Let's talk about the seriousness in the world now that we've dismissed the attack ads that both sides seem to be bent on. Roger, Senator Kerry in Florida today talking about Social Security, saying he won't be raising the retirement age and won't be cutting benefits. What do you think?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": It's a serious issue. The privatization of Social Security -- President Bush doesn't call it that, but that was one of the central points he ran on four years ago. Cutting taxes, privatization of Social Security, and No Child Left Behind. And he means to achieve it. It was put on the back burner when the stock market tanked, but now that things are looking up again, it has been revived. And I think Senator Kerry is raising some serious concerns about whether the system can afford the withdrawal of funds from it.
DOBBS: Yes, but what about the idea that he would neither cut benefits, nor raise the retirement age?
SIMON: It's a good trick if you can do it. I think the problem is that we see that the system can't operate that way, that there are just too few workers in the future to support the retirees without doing one of those two things.
DOBBS: E.J., today, you heard Henry Kissinger and others tell the Senate to go slow on intelligence reform. This is a mess in Iraq whether you're a Democrat or Republican, young Americans are dying, stability has not been assured despite now a year and a half effort to provide security, how big an issue is Iraq? How big is it likely -- a bigger role is it likely to play in this election?
E.J. DIONNE, COLUMNIST, "WASHINGTON POST": I think it's an enormous issue that's already clear that it's an enormous issue. That's why John Kerry gave the speech he gave this week. It was the first speech he's given in a while where he stuck to the teleprompter and spoke in short, pretty clear sentences. I think he gave that speech because a lot of Americans had sort of let Iraq go off the radar screen in the month of August, partly because the media largely let Iraq go off the radar screen.
But as you say, Lou, what's happening there now is so serious that I think it leads to questions about the strategy. I think it's very clear in this election President Bush wants the election to be on the general theme of toughness and leadership. I think Kerry wants to push the election to specific questions about whether what we're doing in Iraq is working, and, obviously, on the current evidence, it is not.
DOBBS: Congressman Rohrabacher, Karen, just said that he would like to see immigration policy be part of the presidential debates. We're talking about tough leadership here, both men trying to assert themselves, both are running like Arnold Schwarzenegger would suggest, like girly men from this issue, don't you think?
TUMULTY: Yes. I think, however, they are not -- certainly the candidates are not going to bring it up on their own, so it is going to require them actually being questioned about it and I would be very surprised if it doesn't come up either in the townhall forum that is the second debate or the third debate. But, you know, we haven't heard President Bush, for instance, talking much about immigration since he, you know, suggested sort of loosening it and letting more immigrants into this country. You're right. It's just not -- it's not an issue that pays for either of them to be talking about politically, so somebody's going to have to force it.
DOBBS: Does that sound like a role for perhaps the American national press?
TUMULTY: I think that the American national press, I mean, my magazine has a question on the cover just last week so I think...
DOBBS: To your great credit.
Roger, let me ask you this, the other issue, trade, jobs in this country, still a million jobs short, at least. What in the world, in your judgment, is going to be the winning approach by either candidate on this issue?
SIMON: I don't know what the winning approach is going to be, but I do know that John Kerry is depending on it to get elected. High unemployment in swing states, in the industrial Midwest is what he is depending on to carry this election, and he is just going to make the point that George Bush has failed to produce jobs for America...
DOBBS: Is it your judgment -- I'm sorry. Roger, is it your judgment that he's coming up with concrete direct ways in which to create jobs? Or is it sufficient to criticize?
SIMON: I think it's probably going to be sufficient to criticize. Because I think as we've pointed out before, presidents actually have a limited ability to affect job creation in America. We wish it were otherwise, but it's simply the truth that jobs do not come from presidents. They come from businesses.
DOBBS: Don't tell the Clinton administration that. SIMON: Presidents can do things. Just 22 million jobs, right.
DOBBS: Let me turn to you, E.J., give you the final word here. Are we to see now, and I know you have written on this, are we to see the CBS, Rather, fake documents, lying sources, 35-year-ago contest between two men, now ebb from this process and the focus be on real issues?
DIONNE: That would be nice. My own view is if we spent the whole month of August looking at Kerry in his 20s, we should probably spend a little time figuring out what Bush did in his 20s. And the discredited CBS documents don't make the questions about Bush's Guard service go away. CBS obviously messed up. I can't honestly understand how they ended up doing what they did, but I don't think the campaign is going end there.
It's very clear, as you said at the beginning of the show, Iraq, jobs, outsourcing, health care, these are the issues that are on people's minds and those are the issues that are going to decide the election ultimately.
DOBBS: Not nearly as titillating in some respects, certainly, trade, outsourcing, education.
DIONNE: Windsurfing is much more interesting.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Absolutely. As always, E.J., Roger, Karen, thank you for being here and Karen, I'm glad you're feeling better.
TUMULTY: Thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, another key issue in this election will be how well we vote and how well those votes are recorded. We'll have a debate over e-voting, whether America is ready for a paperless, recordless, electronic voting process.
And Hurricane Ivan still having a significant impact on our economy. That story and more still ahead here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Wall Street fell apart today. Stock prices suffering the biggest decline in two months. The Dow down more than 130 points, the NASDAQ fell 35, the S&P down almost 16 points.
Christine Romans is here with all the bad news. Well, not all of it, but much of it -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, a convergence of dangerous trends on Wall Street today. Oil prices once again approaching $50 a barrel, behind the surge today a report from the Department of Energy found already stretched national crude oil supplies severely disrupted by Hurricane Ivan. And Chinese demand for world oil ferocious, up 39 percent so far this year.
It will be an expensive winter for millions of us. With oil prices testing $50 a barrel, contracts on home eat heating oil and gasoline futures are soaring. Already companies that rely on the consumer are issuing profit warnings. High energy costs starting to pinch family budgets and raw material costs are also cutting into companies' bottom lines.
Alan Greenspan says inflation is not a problem, and the economy is solid. But the bond market disagrees. The ten-year note yield fell below 4 percent today for the first time since April. The bond market is betting that weaker stock prices and high oil prices will hurt consumer demand and stall the economy. All this against a background of more corporate corruption, more charges today, and a current account deficit, trade deficit that is soaring.
DOBBS: Christine Romans thank you.
Just ahead here, the controversy over electronic voting. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: 50 million people across the country will be using electronic voting machines in the upcoming presidential election. And great controversy surrounds that.
Most of the voting machines will not have paper trails. That lack of a paper trail is the subject of our debate tonight.
Joining me, Linda Lamone, she's administrated elections for the state of Maryland. Linda Schade, co-founder of the truevotemd.org, suing the Maryland State Board of Elections, and the circuit court and the court of appeals in Maryland rejecting her lawsuit.
Good to have both of you here.
Linda Lamone let me ask you first, in the simplest terms, why not provide a paper trail and set aside the anxieties and concerns?
LINDA LAMONE, ADMIN. OF ELECTIONS, MARYLAND: Well, there's a legal issue and a practical issue. The legal issue is under Maryland law any voting system that we use must pass federal standards. There are no federal standards for printers. I have said all along that I would have no objection to adding the printers, but they have to legally be certified to the federal standards.
Practical problems involve the ability of printers for 16,000 voting units to actually run from 7:00 in the morning to 8:00 at night without any problems. If a printer breaks, the voter is not allowed to cast a vote until the ballot is finished printing. If the printer stops running, you have a live ballot on the voter's voting machine which the technician will then be able to see and voters don't like that.
DOBBS: What do you say Linda Shade?
LINDA SCHADE, CO-FOUNDER TRUEVOTEMD.ORG: Well look, you know, it is too late to fix these machines, but really we should be voting on paper ballots. These machines are completely insecure. Voters know across the country know at a gut level, it's very common sense. I am very concerned about us coming out of this presidential election with uncertainty and confusion.
LAMONE: Well, the voting equipment in Maryland is not insecure. The voting equipment in Maryland is the most secure voting system in the United States. It's undergone numerous studies. And we have undertaken a number -- a great number of security measures to make sure.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both...
SCHADE: Of course the studies say that they're a disaster. Hundreds of security flaws. Her computer folks testified for us.
DOBBS: Here's my concern, let's assume that the worst nightmare occurs, which is what is being suggested by some of the polls here today. That is, that this election closes, that this -- that this race results in a election that is even closer than 2000.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
DOBBS: Unimaginable. It is a nightmare. What in the world, Linda Schade do we do?
SCHADE: Yes. Truevotemd.org is looking for people to sign up to be poll watcher, because we need to be on the ground collecting the actual experiences of voters.
DOBBS: Linda Lamone.
LAMONE: What do we do if it's a very close race? Are you suggesting if there's a recount, what do we do?
DOBBS: Yes.
LAMONE: We do what we did when we had a recount in the 2002 gubernatorial election for the House of Delegates in Washington and Allegheny County. And the candidates there, the losing candidate, requested a recount and both the winner and loser were very satisfied with how it was conducted and the result.
DOBBS: Linda Lamone, thank you very much. Administrator of elections for the State of Maryland. Linda Schade, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate your time.
Still ahead, the results of our poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 77 percent of you say the terrorist watchlist should prevent an individual from boarding an aircraft.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. Deputy Prime Minster of Israel, Silvan Shalom, is my guest. We hope you'll be with us for that, and a great deal more. Please be with us.
Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired September 22, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, violence sweeps across Baghdad. American troops are on the offensive, insurgents explode car bombs on crowded Baghdad streets, and the terrorists threaten to behead another Western hostage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: You can't negotiate with these kinds of terrorists. You can't give in to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: A bipartisan group of former secretaries of state and defense tells Congress to slow down on intelligence reform. One of those who testified before the Senate is Henry Kissinger. He's our guest tonight.
Three million illegal aliens will enter this country this year. As many as 12 million are already here. So why all the talk of amnesty? We'll have a special report.
And an exclusive report on what the governments of the United States and Mexico had hoped would be a secret agreement, an agreement that would encourage millions more illegal aliens to enter this country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CA: If we spend more money and we provide more benefits to illegal immigrants, there will be more illegal immigrants.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Congressman Dana Rohrabacher says the agreement could bankrupt our Social Security system. Congressman Rohrabacher is my guest.
And one of this country's largest and most dynamic cities faces the prospect of bankruptcy. Tonight, we'll have a special report from San Diego, California.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, September 22. Here now, for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs. DOBBS: Good evening. Tonight some of the heaviest fighting in Baghdad in weeks. American troops supported by tanks and aircraft today went on the offensive in eastern Baghdad. They killed at least 10 people. They wounded nearly 100 others. Elsewhere in the city of Baghdad, insurgents exploded two massive car bombs. Three Americans were killed in the fighting today. Kitty Pilgrim has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A fiery blast, a car bomb killed more than a dozen people in one part of Baghdad. In another, a car bomb wounded several U.S. soldiers, killing one. In Samarra, a fierce battle in which 14 insurgents were killed. The Shi'ite neighborhood in Baghdad known as Sadr City the site of fierce fighting. Two U.S. soldiers lost their lives today in Tikrit and Mosul.
The headless body of American Jack Hensley was found and identified in Baghdad. He was the second American hostage killed. And now there is new video of the third hostage, Kenneth Bigley of Britain, pleading for his life.
Hours after, a group headed by Abu Musab al Zarqawi boasted of the killing. Iraqis said three detainees, including the woman known as "Dr. Germ" and her husband, Iraq's former oil minister, would be released soon.
As the violence continues, there is a desperate urgency to train more Iraqis for their own security forces.
KASIM DAOUD, IRAQI MIN. FOR MILITARY AFFAIRS (through translator): The Iraqi forces are trying, especially the national guard. They are confronted by fierce fighting, by snipers, and the Iraqi forces are fighting back against these forces.
PILGRIM: But today, as young men lined up outside a police recruiting station and an ice cream parlor where they gather, one of the car bombs targeted them, killing 12, wounding more than 50 people in the area.
U.S. secretary of state Colin Powell today talked about not letting insurgents cross over the Syrian border.
POWELL: I hope that the Syrians now understand the need for all of us to do as much as we can in a tripartite manner -- Syria, the Iraqi interim government and the coalition -- to stop illicit, improper traffic across that border.
PILGRIM: Powell said today that Iraqi prime minister Ayad Allawi will visit Syria soon to discuss the issue.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
And NATO finally reached agreement to set up a military training academy in Iraq, but France and Belgium have been holding up that agreement because of fears they would be asked to pay for it. In the end, there was agreement to boost NATO presence from 40 people to 300 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Not exactly what one would call overwhelming force.
PILGRIM: Not exactly.
DOBBS: Kitty, thanks. Kitty Pilgrim.
President Bush again today focused on Iraq in the election campaign. President Bush stepped up his offensive against Senator John Kerry. He accused Senator Kerry of threatening the morale of American troops in Iraq. The Bush-Cheney campaign also launched a new attack against Senator Kerry in the newest ads. Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president tonight and has the report from Latrobe, Pennsylvania -- Suzanne.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, President Bush wrapping up two days of high-stakes diplomacy, again turning his attention back to the campaign in this critical state of Pennsylvania. With less than six weeks away from the election, the strategy here is to focus on his domestic agenda, to highlight that, but at the same time, to make the case as often as possible, despite what happens on the ground in Iraq, the administration is on the right course, that it was the right thing to do to invade that country, that this is not the time to change the commander-in-chief.
The president also very much aware, however, that he has -- he's engaged in a delicate balancing act, that he also has to acknowledge the difficulties on the ground, earlier today, President Bush, in fact, acknowledging the two -- the beheadings of two American hostages in the last two days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're doing hard work in Iraq right now. It's hard to help a country go from tyranny to elections, to peace, when there are a handful of people who are willing to kill in order to stop the process. And that's what you're seeing on the TV screens. You know, they -- these people cannot beat us militarily, and so they use the only tool at their disposal, which is beheadings and death, to try to shake our will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The president taking on, of course, the characterization of his opponent, his opponent saying that the president is engaged in a "fantasyland of spin." The Bush campaign is fighting back. Of course, they have been saying that Senator Kerry's positions on Iraq are inconsistent, that that makes him not qualified to be commander-in-chief, a controversy erupting, Lou, over the latest Bush campaign ad, called "wind-surfing," that shows Senator Kerry wind-surfing, and it says that his position on Iraq is blowing in the wind. Now, the Bush campaign is defending this, saying perhaps it's a light-hearted way of demonstrating a very serious issue, what they say are the inconsistencies of Kerry's position, the Kerry campaign putting out its own ad, as well, saying that they just believe this whole thing is very juvenile and that the Bush administration is not taking those threats inside of Iraq seriously.
And finally, I should let you know, Lou, of course, tomorrow President Bush is going to be standing side by side with the prime minister of Iraq, Ayad Allawi, at the White House, in the Rose Garden, to take questions, but also to show that they are a united front, that they believe that they're in the right direction when it comes to Iraq policy -- Lou.
DOBBS: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you, reporting from Latrobe, Pennsylvania, with the president.
As Suzanne reported, the Kerry-Edwards campaign immediately counterattacked the Republican ad. In fact, the Democrats launched their own ad accusing the Republicans of what they termed "juvenile" and "tasteless" advertising.
Senator Kerry today campaigned in Florida, and he campaigned on the issue of Social Security. Bob Franken reports from West Palm Beach.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the world of campaigns, Social Security is known as "the third rail." Touching it is political death. John Kerry is hoping to apply that to President Bush's support for a plan that would partially privatize Social Security.
KERRY: Let me make it clear. I will never privatize Social Security ever. Ever. Ever.
FRANKEN: In West Palm Beach, where an elderly population keeps a wary eye on Social Security, Kerry cited a new study by a University of Chicago business professor claiming the financial services industry, one of the largest sectors contributing to the Bush campaign, would reap a $900 billion-plus bonanza over 75 years from administering private accounts. And the study says seniors could be hit with a drop of up to 45 percent in benefits, at a cost over 10 years to the treasury of $2 trillion. The author of the study is an informal adviser to the Kerry campaign.
A Bush campaign spokesman called Kerry's record on Social Security a raw deal, contending he has voted eight times for higher taxes on benefits. Kerry insists his solutions, when fully developed, will take care of retirees, not campaign contributors.
KERRY: My approach is not to cut the benefits, not to raise the retirement age, it's to be fiscally responsible and fix the economy of our country.
FRANKEN: An emphasis on Social Security is a tried-and-true campaign tactic for Democrats, and an important one.
(on camera): Retirees, by definition, have time to vote, and they do, particularly when they perceive a threat to what pays for at least part of that retirement, Social Security. Bob Franken, CNN, West Palm Beach, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Certainly, one issue that is rarely, if ever, discussed in this presidential campaign is what has become an invasion of illegal aliens into this country. Just last week, "Time" magazine in its cover story reported three million illegal aliens will enter the United States this year. At least 12 million are already living here. And incredibly, many lawmakers in Congress, Democrats and Republicans, want to give most of those illegal aliens amnesty. Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's been eight months since President Bush proposed sweeping immigration reforms, including a guest worker program.
BUSH: Out of common sense and fairness, our laws should allow willing workers to enter our country and fill jobs that Americans are not filling.
WIAN: It angered many fellow Republicans, and on the southern border, resulted in a flood of illegal aliens lured by a perceived opportunity to stay in the United States legally.
ROSEMARY JENKS, NUMBERS USA: The public reaction to President Bush's proposal in January of this year was hugely negative. I don't think anyone in the administration or in Congress expected that much of a negative response, and there was an absolute outcry.
WIAN: Even though the idea flopped, at least a dozen similar bills are still alive in Congress, sponsored by members from across the political spectrum, from Arizona Republican John McCain to Massachusetts Democrat Ted Kennedy. One bill, called Ag Jobs, would allow 860,000 illegal alien farm workers plus their families to first apply for temporary residency and eventually citizenship. Several would give amnesty to as many as 10 million of the nation's estimated 12 million illegals. Most of the bills, including one sponsored by Illinois Democrat Luis Gutierrez, have been put on the back burner for now.
REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: I had very high hopes, great expectations, that the president would spend some political capital in moving this forward.
WIAN: He also holds little hope for either the Ag Jobs bill or the Dream Act, which would legalize public high school graduates.
Costs of the bills are hard to quantify, but it's clear that legal status would lead to increased use of government benefits by illegal aliens and accelerate a downward pressure on wages.
(on camera): Opponents of the amnesty bills say it's unlikely any will pass this year because of the upcoming election. The real danger, they say, comes next year, when both political parties will be less concerned about voter backlash. Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight: A deadly suicide attack rocks downtown Jerusalem, the first attack in weeks. We'll have that story. Also tonight, former secretary of state Henry Kissinger will be here. He and other former secretaries of state and defense, a bipartisan group, say the rush to reform intelligence could be a costly mistake. He is our guest. And "The Great American Giveaway," millions of illegal aliens living and working in this country could be given Social Security benefits at a cost of billions of dollars to American taxpayers. We'll have that special report on what two governments hoped would be a secret deal. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, another deadly attack in the Middle East. A radical Islamist terrorist blew herself up in Jerusalem and killed two Israeli policemen. The police officers were trying to stop the 18- year-old bomber as she walked toward a crowded bus stop. Sixteen people were wounded in the explosion.
Also today, Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon said Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza strip will begin not early next year, but next summer, as originally planned. Sharon's deputy prime minister, Silvan Shalom, is our guest here tomorrow evening.
The United States has reached an agreement to release enemy combatant and U.S. citizen Yasser Hamdi. Hamdi will return to Saudi Arabia, where he was raised and where he must renounce any claims that he has to U.S. citizenship. Hamdi was captured with the Taliban in Afghanistan three years ago. He has been held in U.S. custody ever since. The Supreme Court ruled in June that Hamdi has the right to challenge his detention because no charges have been filed against him.
As the world fights radical Islamist terrorism, lawmakers in this country are considering the most sweeping intelligence reform in half a century. But a bipartisan group of former secretaries of state and defense is urging Congress to delay the implementation of any reforms until after the presidential election. That group includes former secretary of state and national security adviser Henry Kissinger. Dr. Kissinger joins me now.
Good to have you with us.
HENRY KISSINGER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Good to be here.
DOBBS: You, Democratic-appointed secretaries of state and defense, all saying that this is a rush to judgment, or at least a rush to implementation. Why are you so concerned?
KISSINGER: Both Republican and Democratic-appointed secretaries. We have seen the national security machinery operate, and we think that such a dramatic reform, which creates a totally new layer and which raises questions about the operation of the existing institutions, should not be passed in the two weeks that are remaining and in the middle of an election campaign. They should be considered carefully and should be put to the Congress early next year.
And several of the reforms have already been carried out, but the fundamental ones, which change the entire structure and which elevate a national intelligence director to a near cabinet level, would bring about such a change, both in the civil procedures, as well as in the NSC procedures, that we think it ought to be considered more carefully.
DOBBS: As you well know, the 9/11 commission made 41 recommendations to overhaul, to reform this nation's intelligence efforts and agencies. Of those 41, are there any to which you are absolutely opposed, irrespective of whether it's a rushed implementation or not?
KISSINGER: Most of the recommendations I support. The 9/11 commission did an outstanding job in putting together the facts bearing on the tragedy. I, together with the eight or nine other people who signed that statement, have -- have enough questions about several of the recommendations -- the establishment of a national intelligence director, the changing of the lines of command, the creating of double lines of authority -- that we think it should be considered again by a group that is specifically assigned and that has specific experience in this field.
DOBBS: There are two thoughts that sort of follow, at least in my case, to what you're saying, as well as the other secretaries, both the Democrat and Republican. One, the highly respected chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Pat Roberts, points out there have been 38 opportunities for reform, none has resulted in reform.
Secondly, given the fact that Porter Goss, the -- whom the Senate Intelligence Committee has now approved to move forward for his nomination, and his predecessor, all -- George Tenet -- have said that it will take five years or more to have an effective covert service.
Is it really acceptable in this day and age, in which we are in a war, to tolerate an answer like that from the head of such critical agency, that five years, when the -- the national security of this country, the well-being of American citizens is at stake, that we would even tolerate such a discussion? And secondly, why would we not try to improve on what has been a series of failures?
KISSINGER: Of course, we should improve, and none of us question the importance of improving, and all of us agree to some of the recommendations. But it will not make any significant difference in the implementation whether there are six months of additional deliberations. When you create an additional layer between the president and the existing institutions, you then have to uproot a lot of the existing institutions, maybe move it into the office of that new layer. It gets to be an extremely complicated thing.
Secondly, it doesn't make any sense to say that just because it's difficult and it has not been done 32 times before, you have to rush something of this magnitude through in two weeks. I don't mind setting ourselves -- I would recommend setting ourselves a firm deadline of, say, eight months and get a careful examination and get it done by next May.
DOBBS: I take that. But what about the idea of tolerating such a thing as a half decade to have an effective covert force?
KISSINGER: In order to understand that, one has to understand that we've been on a roller-coaster with respect to human intelligence and covert operations. Every 10 years, there's another investigation. All the people get investigated, get -- most of them get thrown out, a new layer comes in. And in order to get -- we're talking about spies. To get them into a high enough position, that takes time. I wouldn't have said five years, but it's not something you can turn off and on. And in any event, it is not affected by the reorganization that now is being talked about.
DOBBS: I want to quickly touch, if I may, Professor Kissinger, on the issue of Iraq. It is an absolute mess, by any characterization, whether one is a Democrat or a Republican. Violence is escalating. More Americans are dying and being wounded. And there is little perceptible progress. What is -- and I'm asking you this in a bipartisan role, as a man who has great scale of intellect and experience. What in the world is this country to do with Iraq?
KISSINGER: The one thing we cannot do is to turn it over to radical extremist Islam because this will undermine all the moderate elements in the Islamic world and it will represent a huge threat to every country with a significant Islamic population. So we must come up with -- we're now at the beginning of a process. We made some mistakes in starting it. We overestimated the ease with which it could be done. But I think this process now must be given a chance to work itself out.
DOBBS: More troops? More money?
KISSINGER: I don't think it takes more troops, and I am not sure -- I doubt that it will take more money, but it takes a strategy in which the -- in which greater security is achieved for the populations, elections take place and some international consensus is formed behind the new government.
DOBBS: Secretary Kissinger, we thank you for being here.
KISSINGER: Good to be here.
DOBBS: Henry Kissinger, good to have you with us.
Still ahead, outrage tonight after a U.S. airline allowed a well- known passenger, a well-known passenger on a terrorist watch list, to, in fact, board one of its flights coming to the United States. We'll have that story. and a controversial plan that would give Social Security benefits to illegal aliens. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher of California -- he's fighting to stop it -- he's my guest tonight. And a widening scandal in one of this country's largest cities, one of its most dynamic cities, could well send San Diego into bankruptcy. We'll have the latest on what is now a criminal investigation. All of that and more, as well as your thoughts, still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now, for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: The Center for Immigration Studies today released a scathing report on a controversial agreement between the United States and Mexico. That agreement could allow millions of illegal aliens in this country to receive Social Security benefits. The State Department is working on the final draft of this deal, which has been kept in secret. Critics of the agreement say that it heavily favors Mexican workers and could cost American taxpayers billions of dollars. Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States says Social Security totalization (ph) agreements with 20 countries. They're designed to make sure workers who come here and work get credit for that work back home, so that when they return home, they'll be eligible for their country's pension system. It works for American workers in foreign countries, as well. The pending agreement with Mexico is the exception to those other agreements.
MARTI DINERSTEIN, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: This agreement is a perversion of the existing total of the 20 existing totalization agreements. Few, if any, conditions present in the other agreements exist.
TUCKER: The most obvious is that it would cover more people than any of the other agreements. But a less obvious and potentially more devastating difference centers on the issue of immigration status.
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER (R), CALIFORNIA: While it is true that one cannot be illegal at the time that one would be applying for Social Security, prior work done while an illegal is in the country does count for Social Security under the agreement.
TUCKER: How could that happen? If there's any amnesty program or guest worker program which changes illegal status to legal, some estimated six million workers and their dependents would be eligible for Social Security payments.
(on camera): But the agreement with Mexico to become final, it needs to be presented to Congress. But Congress doesn't need to approve it. It can only veto it. And Congress has never vetoed a totalization agreement. Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Congressman Dana Rohrabacher of California is one member of Congress fighting to block that agreement. It's called a totalization agreement. The congressman has introduced a bill that would forbid anyone working in this country illegally from receiving Social Security benefits, and he joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. Congressman, good to have you with us.
ROHRABACHER: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Correct my interpretation if it is wrong -- not only are the American people denied representation on immigration policy in this country, but the effect of a totalization agreement is to deny participation by the U.S. Congress, other than through veto.
ROHRABACHER: I will have to say that this is an undemocratic way of approaching this problem. The threat of illegal immigration, not only just the threat, the effect of illegal immigration today on the American people is devastating, yet we do not have a national debate on this issue. Just a few shows like your own program and others are trying to stimulate that debate. But where are the national parties on this?
We're talking about a health care system that's going to pot. We're talking about education that's -- that's second -- you know, we are -- we -- our education system in California is falling apart because of illegal immigration, and yet now we have a threat to Social Security. This deserves a national debate.
DOBBS: It deserves a national debate. You are one of those, one of the few, speaking out. But the issue is -- isn't reported by "Time" magazine last week, as I said, on its cover story, reporting three million illegal aliens entering this country. You and Congress, your party and the Republican and the Democratic Party, has -- have been absolutely silent. Why...
ROHRABACHER: Both parties.
DOBBS: Why in the world can't the American people, the middle class, working men and women in this country, find representation in the United States Congress? What can be done?
ROHRABACHER: Well, both parties have got very special interests and very big interests that play here. In the Democratic party, the left of liberal wing of the Democratic party, which controls that party, sees the -- this influx of millions, out of control influx, of millions of illegals as potential constituents. It's going to give them political power.
On the other hand, big business, which has an undue influence on the Republican Party, sees this as a way of keeping down wages. And unless the political parties step up and address this issue, I predict that within a year or two, they'll be a third party that will emerge and it will sweep out the existing parties.
DOBBS: I imagine there are a few people asking why in the world do we have to wait when people look at important issues like immigration, they look at border security, national security, in some instances, spending on infrastructure on this country, state of education, we wonder why we need either party because both seem to be about the same? ROHRABACHER: Let me give them this recommendation. There have been four or five votes we've had on illegal immigration over this last year. Several of them were bills I have proposed. The American people are upset with the fact that we have this massive influx that is threatening our way of life and the well being of our people, should look at those votes and see who in Congress voted what way and then kick the scoundrels out who are not doing a good job.
DOBBS: How many scoundrels do you think it is, Congressman?
What would be the sum total?
ROHRABACHER: I would say there are large number of people who are portraying themselves concerned about illegal immigration, who are doing nothing. On the Republican side, and on the Democrat side, frankly, virtually every member of the Democratic Party in Congress votes to protect illegal immigration into our country.
DOBBS: Beyond that, and we will put that voting record up here shortly on our Web site, that will be loudobbs.com, but what else can people do?
Because the frustration -- I know reading the e-mails, the letters from our viewers, there is huge frustration on this issue?
ROHRABACHER: People are not -- people are dying. I mean American citizens are dying because they go into the emergency room and you got an emergency roomful of illegal aliens who shouldn't be there and their loved one does not get the care that they need. Our criminal justice system are letting these criminals who shouldn't be in this country, letting them loose among our population. Now, when we have American citizens who are dying and we have wages that are being kept down that keep our standard of living down, something's terribly wrong if the political system isn't addressing the problem. We need to ask questions of those people who are running for office and ask the tough questions, why didn't you vote this way, this way, or this way on these particular pieces of legislation.
DOBBS: Should we start with President Bush?
ROHRABACHER: I think we should start with every person who holds elected office in this country. And I think it should be a major question in the debates between the two presidential candidates.
DOBBS: Congressman Dana Rohrabacher, we thank you for being here. Thank you, Dana Rohrabacher.
ROHRABACHER: Right.
DOBBS: Disturbing news tonight on airline security. Yusuf Islam, the singer formerly known as Cat Stevens, was allowed to board a United Airline Flight from London to Washington, D.C., despite the fact that his name appears on a federal terror watch list that should have kept him off that aircraft. Once homeland security officials did learn that Islam was on the flight, it was diverted to Bangor, Maine. Yusuf Islam was removed from the aircraft, and he will be returned to London. Government sources say Islam's name was misspelled on the original terror watch list, which they say could explain why United Airlines missed it. Islam was placed on a no-fly list after officials received information that he associates with terrorist groups. Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge said United Airlines had the necessary information, but simply failed to act on it. The spokesman for United Airlines did not comment at all.
And that brings us to the subject of "Tonight's Poll." The question, "Do you believe the terrorist watch list should prevent an individual from boarding an aircraft," yes or no? Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Tonight, scandal rocks this nation's seventh largest city. San Diego could be forced into bankruptcy, all of this after a bomb shell discovery in January revealed mismanagement in the city government's pension fund operations. Mismanagement that left the fund more than a billion dollars short. Peter Viles, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK ROBERTS, KFMB TALK RADIO: Broadcasting from America's finest city, San Diego, California.
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the talk of San Diego, a fiscal crisis that's both serious and embarrassing.
ROBERTS: America's finest city, once known as the most efficient city in this great nation, now being called Enron by the sea. Quite literally, we're one step away from bankruptcy in the -- in America's seventh largest city.
VILES: The Enron city is the city's pension fund which has been under funded and mismanaged for years. Those big returns from the mid 1990s, the city foolishly spent them on projects like the '96 Republican Convention. What's left is a $1.2 billion hole in the pension fund, a city credit rating suspended by Standard & Poor's, Investigations by the FEC and Justice Department, and growing talk about a bankruptcy filing.
RON ROBERTS, SAN DIEGO MAYORAL CANDIDATE: This city hasn't had an audited in over two years. We don't have any auditive financial statements from 2002, 2003, and none from 2004. There -- the city is very upside down right now, and I think because we don't know, there are people that are speculating that that may be an option.
VILES: Embattled Mayor Dick Murphy up for re-election in six weeks, insists it's a manageable problem.
MAYOR DICK MURPHY, SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA: We are not facing bankruptcy in San Diego, that is the political hyperbolically. We just passed a balance budget with no tax increases. We've got millions in assets. What we have is an underfunded pension plan.
VILES: It took a whistle blower, a financial advisor from La Hoya (ph) to spot the problem and go public with it. DIANN SHIPIONE, SAN DIEGO'S PENSION TRUSTEE: It's challenging to speak the truth in a city that basically is in denial. The problems are extremely large and they're difficult to deal with, so the tendency politically is to not deal with them.
VILES: Like it or not, San Diego will have to deal with this problem for years to come.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Now coming like this happened in the private sector, we'd probably be talking about possible prosecution under the Sarbanes- Oxley Act, that the one that says you have to tell the truth about your financial condition. But that act, Lou, does not apply to public officials -- Lou.
DOBBS: That's incredible. What is the mood of the citizens of San Diego, a spectacularly beautiful city in Southern California.
What is the mood of those people you've had an opportunity to talk with?
VILES: I would say it's a combination of cranky and embarrassed. They're cranky. The city has not raised taxes but is not fully funding this pension either. So there are millions of dollars in nickel and dime fees that people are angry about, notably, $5 for a parent to accompany a child who's swimming in a public pool. The parent doesn't go swimming has to pay $5 to chaperon their son or daughter, Lou.
DOBBS: That would be a fee, not a tax, I take it.
VILES: Exactly.
DOBBS: Peter Viles, we thank you reporting live tonight from San Diego, California.
Just ahead here, another war of words on the presidential campaign trail. Accusations of shameful, tasteless and juvenile attack ads we're talking about. We'll tell you which ones those word place to. We'll be talking with three of the nation's top political journalists next.
And later, it is paperless with no proof. Electronic voting and the upcoming presidential election that stands to be as close many say, if not closer, than the 2000 presidential election. Just how accurate will the results be election night, two opposing views in tonight's "Faceoff." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A fiery exchange today between the presidential campaigns over a new ad from the Bush-Cheney team. The commercial shows Senator John Kerry windsurfing, accuses him of shifting positions with the wind. Kerry spokesman Mike McCurry calls the ad shameful and demands that President Bush repudiate it. The president's campaign declined. Joining me now three of the country's top political journalists, Karen Tumulty, national political correspondent, "TIME" magazine in Washington, D.C. tonight, Roger Simon, political editor of "U.S. News & World Report." He tonight is in San Francisco. E.J. Young, columnist for the "Washington Post" joining us as well from the nation's capital. Thank you all for being here. Are you shocked, Karen, that the Bush-Cheney campaign did not repudiate the ad?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Not at all. Certainly this ad -- they have yet to lose in this campaign in their efforts to turn John Kerry into a figure of ridicule, but I think that this campaign ad may have been a little bit over the top and what I was really struck by was the fact that the Kerry campaign had its response ad ready within four hours of this ad's release.
So they clearly saw this as an opportunity to juxtapose this ad against the very seriousness of what's going on in the world.
DOBBS: Let's talk about the seriousness in the world now that we've dismissed the attack ads that both sides seem to be bent on. Roger, Senator Kerry in Florida today talking about Social Security, saying he won't be raising the retirement age and won't be cutting benefits. What do you think?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": It's a serious issue. The privatization of Social Security -- President Bush doesn't call it that, but that was one of the central points he ran on four years ago. Cutting taxes, privatization of Social Security, and No Child Left Behind. And he means to achieve it. It was put on the back burner when the stock market tanked, but now that things are looking up again, it has been revived. And I think Senator Kerry is raising some serious concerns about whether the system can afford the withdrawal of funds from it.
DOBBS: Yes, but what about the idea that he would neither cut benefits, nor raise the retirement age?
SIMON: It's a good trick if you can do it. I think the problem is that we see that the system can't operate that way, that there are just too few workers in the future to support the retirees without doing one of those two things.
DOBBS: E.J., today, you heard Henry Kissinger and others tell the Senate to go slow on intelligence reform. This is a mess in Iraq whether you're a Democrat or Republican, young Americans are dying, stability has not been assured despite now a year and a half effort to provide security, how big an issue is Iraq? How big is it likely -- a bigger role is it likely to play in this election?
E.J. DIONNE, COLUMNIST, "WASHINGTON POST": I think it's an enormous issue that's already clear that it's an enormous issue. That's why John Kerry gave the speech he gave this week. It was the first speech he's given in a while where he stuck to the teleprompter and spoke in short, pretty clear sentences. I think he gave that speech because a lot of Americans had sort of let Iraq go off the radar screen in the month of August, partly because the media largely let Iraq go off the radar screen.
But as you say, Lou, what's happening there now is so serious that I think it leads to questions about the strategy. I think it's very clear in this election President Bush wants the election to be on the general theme of toughness and leadership. I think Kerry wants to push the election to specific questions about whether what we're doing in Iraq is working, and, obviously, on the current evidence, it is not.
DOBBS: Congressman Rohrabacher, Karen, just said that he would like to see immigration policy be part of the presidential debates. We're talking about tough leadership here, both men trying to assert themselves, both are running like Arnold Schwarzenegger would suggest, like girly men from this issue, don't you think?
TUMULTY: Yes. I think, however, they are not -- certainly the candidates are not going to bring it up on their own, so it is going to require them actually being questioned about it and I would be very surprised if it doesn't come up either in the townhall forum that is the second debate or the third debate. But, you know, we haven't heard President Bush, for instance, talking much about immigration since he, you know, suggested sort of loosening it and letting more immigrants into this country. You're right. It's just not -- it's not an issue that pays for either of them to be talking about politically, so somebody's going to have to force it.
DOBBS: Does that sound like a role for perhaps the American national press?
TUMULTY: I think that the American national press, I mean, my magazine has a question on the cover just last week so I think...
DOBBS: To your great credit.
Roger, let me ask you this, the other issue, trade, jobs in this country, still a million jobs short, at least. What in the world, in your judgment, is going to be the winning approach by either candidate on this issue?
SIMON: I don't know what the winning approach is going to be, but I do know that John Kerry is depending on it to get elected. High unemployment in swing states, in the industrial Midwest is what he is depending on to carry this election, and he is just going to make the point that George Bush has failed to produce jobs for America...
DOBBS: Is it your judgment -- I'm sorry. Roger, is it your judgment that he's coming up with concrete direct ways in which to create jobs? Or is it sufficient to criticize?
SIMON: I think it's probably going to be sufficient to criticize. Because I think as we've pointed out before, presidents actually have a limited ability to affect job creation in America. We wish it were otherwise, but it's simply the truth that jobs do not come from presidents. They come from businesses.
DOBBS: Don't tell the Clinton administration that. SIMON: Presidents can do things. Just 22 million jobs, right.
DOBBS: Let me turn to you, E.J., give you the final word here. Are we to see now, and I know you have written on this, are we to see the CBS, Rather, fake documents, lying sources, 35-year-ago contest between two men, now ebb from this process and the focus be on real issues?
DIONNE: That would be nice. My own view is if we spent the whole month of August looking at Kerry in his 20s, we should probably spend a little time figuring out what Bush did in his 20s. And the discredited CBS documents don't make the questions about Bush's Guard service go away. CBS obviously messed up. I can't honestly understand how they ended up doing what they did, but I don't think the campaign is going end there.
It's very clear, as you said at the beginning of the show, Iraq, jobs, outsourcing, health care, these are the issues that are on people's minds and those are the issues that are going to decide the election ultimately.
DOBBS: Not nearly as titillating in some respects, certainly, trade, outsourcing, education.
DIONNE: Windsurfing is much more interesting.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Absolutely. As always, E.J., Roger, Karen, thank you for being here and Karen, I'm glad you're feeling better.
TUMULTY: Thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, another key issue in this election will be how well we vote and how well those votes are recorded. We'll have a debate over e-voting, whether America is ready for a paperless, recordless, electronic voting process.
And Hurricane Ivan still having a significant impact on our economy. That story and more still ahead here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Wall Street fell apart today. Stock prices suffering the biggest decline in two months. The Dow down more than 130 points, the NASDAQ fell 35, the S&P down almost 16 points.
Christine Romans is here with all the bad news. Well, not all of it, but much of it -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: Lou, a convergence of dangerous trends on Wall Street today. Oil prices once again approaching $50 a barrel, behind the surge today a report from the Department of Energy found already stretched national crude oil supplies severely disrupted by Hurricane Ivan. And Chinese demand for world oil ferocious, up 39 percent so far this year.
It will be an expensive winter for millions of us. With oil prices testing $50 a barrel, contracts on home eat heating oil and gasoline futures are soaring. Already companies that rely on the consumer are issuing profit warnings. High energy costs starting to pinch family budgets and raw material costs are also cutting into companies' bottom lines.
Alan Greenspan says inflation is not a problem, and the economy is solid. But the bond market disagrees. The ten-year note yield fell below 4 percent today for the first time since April. The bond market is betting that weaker stock prices and high oil prices will hurt consumer demand and stall the economy. All this against a background of more corporate corruption, more charges today, and a current account deficit, trade deficit that is soaring.
DOBBS: Christine Romans thank you.
Just ahead here, the controversy over electronic voting. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: 50 million people across the country will be using electronic voting machines in the upcoming presidential election. And great controversy surrounds that.
Most of the voting machines will not have paper trails. That lack of a paper trail is the subject of our debate tonight.
Joining me, Linda Lamone, she's administrated elections for the state of Maryland. Linda Schade, co-founder of the truevotemd.org, suing the Maryland State Board of Elections, and the circuit court and the court of appeals in Maryland rejecting her lawsuit.
Good to have both of you here.
Linda Lamone let me ask you first, in the simplest terms, why not provide a paper trail and set aside the anxieties and concerns?
LINDA LAMONE, ADMIN. OF ELECTIONS, MARYLAND: Well, there's a legal issue and a practical issue. The legal issue is under Maryland law any voting system that we use must pass federal standards. There are no federal standards for printers. I have said all along that I would have no objection to adding the printers, but they have to legally be certified to the federal standards.
Practical problems involve the ability of printers for 16,000 voting units to actually run from 7:00 in the morning to 8:00 at night without any problems. If a printer breaks, the voter is not allowed to cast a vote until the ballot is finished printing. If the printer stops running, you have a live ballot on the voter's voting machine which the technician will then be able to see and voters don't like that.
DOBBS: What do you say Linda Shade?
LINDA SCHADE, CO-FOUNDER TRUEVOTEMD.ORG: Well look, you know, it is too late to fix these machines, but really we should be voting on paper ballots. These machines are completely insecure. Voters know across the country know at a gut level, it's very common sense. I am very concerned about us coming out of this presidential election with uncertainty and confusion.
LAMONE: Well, the voting equipment in Maryland is not insecure. The voting equipment in Maryland is the most secure voting system in the United States. It's undergone numerous studies. And we have undertaken a number -- a great number of security measures to make sure.
DOBBS: Let me ask you both...
SCHADE: Of course the studies say that they're a disaster. Hundreds of security flaws. Her computer folks testified for us.
DOBBS: Here's my concern, let's assume that the worst nightmare occurs, which is what is being suggested by some of the polls here today. That is, that this election closes, that this -- that this race results in a election that is even closer than 2000.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
DOBBS: Unimaginable. It is a nightmare. What in the world, Linda Schade do we do?
SCHADE: Yes. Truevotemd.org is looking for people to sign up to be poll watcher, because we need to be on the ground collecting the actual experiences of voters.
DOBBS: Linda Lamone.
LAMONE: What do we do if it's a very close race? Are you suggesting if there's a recount, what do we do?
DOBBS: Yes.
LAMONE: We do what we did when we had a recount in the 2002 gubernatorial election for the House of Delegates in Washington and Allegheny County. And the candidates there, the losing candidate, requested a recount and both the winner and loser were very satisfied with how it was conducted and the result.
DOBBS: Linda Lamone, thank you very much. Administrator of elections for the State of Maryland. Linda Schade, thank you very much for being with us. We appreciate your time.
Still ahead, the results of our poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: 77 percent of you say the terrorist watchlist should prevent an individual from boarding an aircraft.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. Deputy Prime Minster of Israel, Silvan Shalom, is my guest. We hope you'll be with us for that, and a great deal more. Please be with us.
Good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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