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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired September 24, 2004 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am not ruling Pakistan with an iron hand. I am governing Pakistan with a very soft hand.

GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: The proper response to difficulty is not to retreat. It is to prevail.

ROBERT MUGABE, ZIMBABWEAN PRESIDENT: There is but one political God, George W. Bush, and Tony Blair is his prophet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: You are not looking at tourist-clogged Times Square in New York City. This is the annual procession of the leaders of U.N. countries.

Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

It's that time of the year. Speeches and meetings here at the United Nations. And joining me to tell you all about it are two U.N.-based correspondents, James Bone of the "Times of London," who spent time avoiding frozen zones, as did Philippe Bolopion of Radio France International.

Well, I have never really been here when Saddam Hussein would decide to show up -- he never did. But the unelected leader of Iraq these days, Ayad Allawi, did this week. Allawi joining with others in listening to President Bush. The Iraqi leader receiving warm wishes from countries. He Ed to the United Nations on Friday afternoon for a speak of his own.

The United States and opponents of the war haven't budged on the right to go in and now the deployment of more troops.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The United Nations and it's member nations must respond to Prime Minister Allawi's request and do more to help build an Iraq that a secure, democratic, federal and free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): France, as everyone recalls, did not approve of the conditions in which the conflict was unleashed. Neither today nor tomorrow will it commit itself militarily in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: France is interested in paying for economic reconstruction, but not for boots on the ground.

Philippe, let's start with you. Has Allawi's visit to Washington and the United Nations given him more clout, or it's just let's wait for more bombs? What's the story?

PHILIPPE BOLOPION, RADIO FRANCE INTERNATIONAL: Well, I think he has a lot to prove to the world community. He's not an elected official. People are very suspicious of him. They see him as the man of the Americans. So he is debut on the U.N. scene is very important to him, but I don't think he's going to be rated as a kind of a liberator of Iraq.

JAMES BONE, "TIMES OF LONDON": Richard, there is actually quite a big argument behind the scenes at the United Nations in this last week over the U.N. role in administering the elections that are due to take place in Iraq in January.

At the moment, the United Nations has a cap of 35 on the total number of U.N. staff in Iraq, and there are only 8 U.N. staff there at the moment working on the elections, and they've got to prepare the electoral roles, do all kinds of things.

And behind the scenes, there has been a lot of pressure from the Americans and from the British for the United Nations to increase that presence in Iraq and to extend it beyond Baghdad, because they're now confined to Baghdad, and go into at least Basra in the south and Erbil in the north, if not beyond that.

ROTH: So what happened really here at the United Nations regarding Iraq? Kind of the luster was off. We've had so many sensational meetings every September because of tensions before and after the war, and now really the story is in Iraq, right, Philippe?

BOLOPION: Now it is time for reflection. I think a lot of countries, like France, are saying to the United States we told you so. Now the situation is really bad. I think they feel like a very bad reaction to this pitch of the President Bush, who was trying to show an Iraq where everything was going well, you know, with freedom spreading around, really paint a picture of Iraq when what people see here is a very grim picture with people being attacked, decapitation, and there is a big gap in the perception, at least.

BONE: And one interesting incident, Richard, you remember that Iraq as to sit next to Israel because of the alphabet, and Ayad Allawi shook hands with the Israeli foreign minister who was sitting next to him in the General Assembly Hall, even though Iraq has no diplomatic relations with Israel. That caused a big stir, especially in the Middle East.

ROTH: Could that be risky for him -- James.

BONE: Well, I'm sure there are certain constituencies who will be offended. I mean, they already have suspicions of him in Iraq and they will be alienated from him because of that.

ROTH: A lot of speeches about terrorism. It's very easy for these world leaders to condemn it. Certainly various terrorist groups are not member states here at the United Nations.

James, the Russians moving on the Beslan horror show have a resolution in store. Tell us about it.

BONE: Yes, the Russians have a very radical resolution before the Security Council, unveiled by Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister, ex- ambassador here.

Basically, they want to extent the present U.N. black lists of terror suspects for al Qaeda and the Taliban, the former regime in Afghanistan. They want to extend that the to anybody who is a terror suspect around the world.

So you can see Russia bringing lists of Chechens to the Security Council to put on this black list, and anybody who gets on to the black list, and it's quite easy to get onto the black list, even by mistake.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Philippe, go ahead. I know you've got probably a -- hopefully that's not a terror vehicle backing up there. Go ahead.

BOLOPION: I don't think so, no.

I think it's an a bit scary to see that a lot of countries now are going to use the same argument put forward by the United States to justify there own war on terror, the repression against their own terrorists. And it's a very, very slippery slope. We don't know where it's going to stop.

It is interesting to see that dictators, like the President Mugabe, are trying to use the same arguments when they say to the United States and to the Western world, they say look what happened in Abu Ghraib, look what's happening in Guantanamo, and now you are trying to give us some lessons, so we've got a bit of that also going on at the General Assembly.

BONE: And Mugabe came up with one of the lines of the week, misquoting the Koran to say that under the new political system in the world, President Bush is the only political God and Tony Blair is his prophet.

ROTH: All right, well, listen, terrorism happens to be second. Security Council reform, it seems, moves at a glacial pace.

This week, four large nations got together, Brazil, India, Japan and Germany. It's the gang of four, they're calling it. They want permanent seats on the U.N. Security Council.

However, other countries, such as Italy and Pakistan say not so fast.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We, the member states, after most of the political (UNINTELLIGIBLE) creativity to adapt the organization to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

Germany is ready to make a committed contribution.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do not believe that countries difficulties can be revolved through new permanent, irrevocable appointments and national mandates. Such a move will sow division, frustration and perhaps (UNINTELLIGIBLE) membership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The gang of four wants a fifth seat for Africa.

Philippe, briefly, when is this going to happen? Will it happen?

BOLOPION: Well, you know, when we're talking about that, we've (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they all smile because they have seen it before. It's not the first time.

Italy (UNINTELLIGIBLE) because of the difficulty they have with dozens of countries (UNINTELLIGIBLE) only purpose in life is to stop any reform because they don't want their big neighbors to go to the Security Council.

ROTH: James.

BOLOPION: It's interesting. It's not going anywhere.

BONE: And this time, as before, the reason they're mobilizing so much is there is a rival proposal now before a U.N. panel on reform that is for seven or eight semi-permanent seats who would serve four or five years instead of the normal two years, and they don't want that proposal because that wouldn't get them permanent seats.

ROTH: Okay. I think we both thought -- it was almost like two U.N. General Assemblies, the big Monday, with development and poverty and the rest, speeches on war and terrorism.

James Bone, of the "Times of London," Philippe Bolopion, of Radio France International, thank you both. We will have you back.

Gromyko-Kissinger, Rusk-Dobrenin (ph), Lavrov-Powell. It used to be a big thing when the Soviet foreign minister, then the Russian foreign minister, met with his United States counterpart. This year Sergey Lavrov, of Russia, and Colin Powell, of the United States, seemed to agree on at least the lunch severed at the annual meeting of the permanent five nations that sit on the Security Council hosted by the secretary-general.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How was your lunch, sir?

COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Excellent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it productive?

SERGEY LAVROV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MIN.: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROTH: Our next guest approaching our CNN U.N. office. A president never gets lost. It's the president of Nigeria, Olusegun Obasanjo. While he takes a seat, let's get on update on this important African ruler from CNN's Jeff Koinange, CNN's man in Nigeria.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Everywhere you look these days, he's the toast of the party. And at 68, he's relishing his newfound role as Africa's elder statesman.

Around the continent and across the world he's simply known as the Chairman, chairman, that is, of just about everything, from the Commonwealth, a grouping of mostly former British colonies, to the African Union, to the G77, made up mostly of countries from the developing world. And he's wasting no time trying to find African solutions to African problems, from peacekeeping missions in strife-torn nations stretching from Liberia to Sudan, to championing the African renaissance through programs such as NEPAD (ph), Africa's equivalent of the Marshal Plan used to jump start European economies after World War II.

Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo seems to be on a roll, at least in the eyes of the world.

But for the former military ruler turned prisoner turned democratically elected president, getting respect at home takes some doing. The leader of the giant of Africa as the continent's most populous nation is commonly referred to, has his toughest critics in his backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a giant that is dying, who's been dying on its feet, and the bigger the corpse, the bigger the stink.

KOINANGE: Since his election in 1999, religious clashes in the country's north and tribal clashes between warring factions in the rich Niger delta over oil rights has led to the death of tens of thousands of innocent people. Hundreds of thousands more have been displaced.

Still, supporters insist Obasanjo inherited a country in ruins, due in part to past military misrule.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think his measure only follows the prior dictatorship, because there is so much confrontation, so much (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and so much sentiment against dictatorship, so when democracy comes down, the usual expectation is that it will bring a lot of dividends and benefits.

KOINANGE: But unrealized expectations have also led to conflict. Persistent strikes over the rising price of fuel has more often then not led to riots and a near state of anarchy which threatens to spread.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Each time Nigeria shoots itself in the foot, which it's been doing consistently, a huge gash is opened up, and the pus virtually (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the entire continent.

KOINANGE: But even the same critics admit Obasanjo has made significant strides in areas such as human rights, foreign investment promotion and the fight against what is commonly referred to as Nigeria's Achilles' heel: corruption.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The fact that he sometimes has been able to, you know, make a concrete effort, you know, in the direction of his anti- corruption campaign, you know, attempting to bring to book some really big- wigs who thought they were covered by a policy of annuity.

KOINANGE: And some critics insist he's done little to unite an already deeply divided nation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no problem with the country. I have a problem with the decisions of the government, because they are wrong decisions. There is no consultation. No expat's opinion are being sought.

People wake up and take a decision based on what they dreamt overnight.

KOINANGE (on camera): Olusegun Obasanjo's second and final term of office comes to an end in 2007. After that, he says he'll retire to his farm and leave it to the experts to judge his accomplishments and his place in Nigeria's and Africa's often turbulent history.

For DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, I'm Jeff Koinange, in Lagos.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: Thank you very much, Jeff.

And with us right now in the president of Nigeria, Olusegun Obasanjo.

Mr. President, welcome.

In Jeff Koinange's report there, there were some people who said that Nigeria is a giant that has fallen down, that the state is in disarray. That wasn't the complete report, but I'm sure you've heard this before and I want to give you a chance to respond.

OLUSEGUN OBASANJO, NIGERIAN PRESIDENT: Well, that's stereotype. A country that has moved from being a pariah state five years ago, a country that nobody wanted to have any dealing with five years ago, has now been courted by the international community, where the leader of that country is chairman of AU, chairman of G77 Summit and chairperson in office of the Commonwealth.

You can not say such a country is a giant with clay feet.

ROTH: I mean, it seems like yesterday the General Assembly was meeting here late in the evening, sanctions after Ken Saro-Wiwa was killed. You think that the world kind of demands action so fast and forgets very quickly when there is change so fast in a country?

OBASANJO: Well, just as it is easy for a country to go down these atrocities, of course it is also in a way not too difficult for a country with the right leadership and what it takes to start getting up the ladder and being on top of the hill again.

ROTH: How are you going to stop a religious war of grand proportions in your country where there are 10, 12 states in the north who are following strict religious Islamic codes and you have Muslim power in the north, Christians south. Is that your greatest worry right now?

OBASANJO: Not at all. That's not my greatest worry because we have always been a multi-religious country. Many people don't know that we have more Muslims in Nigeria than any other country in Africa and we are proud of that because the country that is almost half divided in population between Muslims and Christians. And I have always said that this is something we should cherish. If we can live together in piece and harmony and if we can make progress and can make development of our country a reality, then the world has something to learn about us in Nigeria, how the East and the West, how Muslims and Christians elsewhere and indeed in the world as a whole can live together.

ROTH: I'll get back to your country in a moment. Let me talk about another African country, because I know your time is short here. Sudan.

OBASANJO: Yes.

ROTH: Is it long past the time where the outside world has to do something, be more aggressive against the government of Sudan considering what is happening in Darfur?

OBASANJO: It is not a question of the world doing something more aggressive. It is the world helping Sudan to help itself.

Sudan has a problem, internal problem, that the world has to understand.

ROTH: Isn't that the biggest crisis to the United Nations, which was founded on this system of it would be a peacekeeping organization if the dispute was between two countries.

Now every day for the last 10, 15 years, it is when a country has grand problems internally, how do you fix that if the government in power may not be able to get it under control or what do to that?

OBASANJO: Yes, we have found a way to bring that in the AU, in the African Union, of which I am now chairman. And the constitutive act of AU makes it mandatory for the AU to actually send troops within any member country where the need arises.

ROTH: It seems like they're predicting -- the monitors -- a lot of people wonder what does that accomplish while the United States says it's a genocide there, and several other European countries say that.

It's a big country, I know.

OBASANJO: It is a big country, and the United States has said genocide.

Some of us in Africa have agreed that there is violence, there is conflict, there have been killings, but we have thought described it as genocide.

ROTH: Briefly, got to hop around on the issue front. This week at the United Nations, the gang of four, Germany, Japan, Brazil and India said they would support each other's countries case for a permanent seat on the Security Council. They say they expect an African country to get the fifth seat. Do you want to be the fifth?

OBASANJO: Why not? By everything that qualifies those other countries, we believe Nigeria is also qualified.

ROTH: So Nigeria ahead of South Africa?

OBASANJO: Those four countries are first of all based on population, and if every one in four population is a Nigerian, for what reason should Nigeria not be one of those countries?

ROTH: You were leading Nigeria in 1976, right, when Jimmy Carter was president. I mean, you're no spring chicken on the stage. You're the most experienced person here at this whole General Assembly, right?

OBASANJO: Well, I will admit that I am one of the most experienced. I won't say the most experienced, but definitely one of.

ROTH: Will you push for a change in the constitution to allow yourself to seek a third term?

OBASANJO: No, I won't push the constitution in that respect.

ROTH: Will you possibly change your mind as you did before you first came to power, after being freed from jail, people should remember. Would you want a third term?

OBASANJO: No, I wouldn't want a third term. It is unconstitutional.

ROTH: You don't see a change of heart? It's nice being president.

OBASANJO: Well, no. It's not nice being president. It's nice having to do a job. If you are really called upon to do that job.

I didn't want to be a president last time. I was pleased (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that had the pressure was there that I should and I have a call of duty.

ROTH: All right. You say you're retiring to the farm. Thank you very much for grazing here with DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. President Olusegun Obasanjo, thank you. Nice to meet you.

OBASANJO: And I hope to see you on my farm.

ROTH: Don't try to ask one African ruler about the Nigerian leader. I did give it a trial with interim Liberian Chairman Jude Bryant, but it turned into really a case of hay, dude, come here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Tell me your opinion, without getting into trouble.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Did I? The work of President Obasanjo, who we're interviewing tomorrow. How key is he to Africa?

JUDE BRYANT, LIBERIAN INTERIM CHAIRMAN: Very key. Very key.

ROTH: Can you tell us who? How? Where?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROTH: The music is not "Flight of the Butterfly." Mohammad Ali's rallying cry was "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." This is "Flight of the Bumblebee" on the first day of Spring at the United Nations Peace Bells ceremonies.

Just one of those unique moments during the crazy week here at the United Nations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, is the United Nations still relevant today? How effective is the United Nations today?

BUSH: Good morning, everybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One question. Why are you not staying for Bush's speech?

BUSH: Hey, Kofi, how are you? Good to see you. You look great.

BUSH: . To help rebuild Iraq's infrastructure. We will stand with the people of Afghanistan and Iraq until their hopes of freedom and security are fulfilled.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When shall we ever have a black or Afro-American president of the United States? Never ever.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait a minute. One at a time here, please.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I ask what you thought of President Bush's speech?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very good speech.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you like about it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: And finally, one of our own show moments, if CBS News can apologize for a story about the validity of National Guard letters and the president of the United States, I can apologize here for an e-mail letter we received that we used on last week's program.

I made it seem that a London man was affiliated with the humanitarian group Certain. The e-mail denounced the Sudanese government. Concern is in the Western part of Darfur in a big way trying to get food and sanitation to over 300,000 people, but that e-mail was not from Concern. We remain concerned about the accuracy of our e-mails.

And that is it for DIPLOMATIC LICENSE this week at the United Nations. I'm Richard Roth, thanks for watching.

END

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