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CNN Live At Daybreak
Day After Vice Presidential Debate; Fact Check
Aired October 06, 2004 - 06:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone, from the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta. I'm Rick Sanchez. Carol Costello is off today.
"Now in the News."
Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction at the time of the U.S. invasion last year, but he may have been planning to revive his WMD programs. That is the final word from the experts sent to Iraq to search for banned weapons. The team delivers its findings to a Senate committee this morning.
The U.S. military launched an airstrike on a house in Fallujah, where insurgents were thought to be plotting attacks in Iraq. Three houses, we understand, were destroyed. We're following the story. No injuries reported.
Washington is delaying plans for its troop reduction in South Korea. One-third of U.S. troops were to have pulled out of the peninsula by the end of next year, but the deadline has now been pushed back to 2008.
Iran has reportedly started processing uranium for enrichment. The process can be used to make material for nuclear weapons. Iran insists its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes as in energy and not for building weapons.
(WEATHER REPORT)
SANCHEZ: We're going to devote the next 30 minutes to last night's vice presidential debate. They shook hands, and then the gloves came off. Was it style over substance, or just the opposite? We're going to take a look at what was said and what wasn't said from each side of the political aisle.
Also, we're going to do a little fact-checking for you. CNN senior political analyst, and none better we should say, than Bill Schneider, he's going to tell us if the candidates knew what they were talking about.
Also, Ron Brownstein is going to join us with last night's more colorful moments as well.
We're bringing you all of that, so get ready.
Well, we're going to start where it all began in the battleground state of Ohio. Some viewers had been surprised last night when the vice president said that he had never met John Edwards. We have found out the two actually have met.
CNN's John Bisney is joining us now on the phone from Cleveland.
Hey, John, how are you doing?
JOHN BISNEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pretty good, Rick. Thanks.
SANCHEZ: Let's do this for our viewers. We've got a couple of video clips here I want to share with our viewers. Last night, Mr. Cheney did, in fact, say he'd only met Senator Edwards for the very first time right there while they were debating. Well, take a look at this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Do you solemnly swear that you will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, that you take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that you will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which you are about to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It's a swearing-in ceremony that you're looking at, and apparently they shake hands. Let's hold the video. Let's roll it so you can see it. Well, they did actually, obviously, at some point shake hands.
Now, watch this. This is Senator Edwards' wife last night going to the vice president and telling him, what do you mean we've never met before?
An interesting dynamic. What do you make of this?
BISNEY: Yes, I was surprised to hear Mr. Cheney make that claim, Rick. He is the presiding officer of the Senate, and he said he comes up there every Tuesday for the party policy lunches and had never run into Edwards. Well, I mean, I suppose that's possible, because they divide up into their parties.
But, yes, we found out they had met twice before, in fact. In 2001, on February 1, they attended the National Prayer Breakfast together, and apparently the two couples sat next to each other for a couple of hours. And then you saw that video of him swearing in the new senators.
So, either Mr. Cheney has a faulty memory, or he decided to make some political hay out of -- the reference there was that John Edwards was never around Capitol Hill and had missed a lot of votes.
SANCHEZ: To be fair, though, when you a have a position like vice president of the United States and you are clearly the second- most important man in the free world, you meet a lot of people, and some of them may even be junior senators and you may actually forget the encounter. Is it fair to say that?
BISNEY: I suppose that's fair to say that. You know, there are a lot of stories about President Reagan forgetting certain members of his cabinet, in fact, at one time, referring to one of them as a mayor. So, you do meet a lot of people. I suppose it can slip your mind.
On the other hand, John Edwards is somebody who, now that he's running against you, you may have reached back in your memory and said, my gosh, I do remember running into that guy. I don't really know what the truth is there.
SANCHEZ: Hey, John, I want to ask you about this whole flip-flop thing, because that's become such a major issue. Our correspondents, when they talk to people all over America, that's the one negative that comes up with the Kerry campaign.
Last night, Senator Edwards was able to delineate what he considers the flip-flops of the Bush administration. Do you think he did a good job with that? Will it have teeth?
BISNEY: Yes, I don't know that it will have any teeth beyond what we've already heard. The Republicans, as you know, have spent a lot of money on advertising, saying that Kerry has flip-flopped on the war in Iraq, the funding, that sort of thing. And that was the same theme that Cheney tried to drive home last night; that this ticket, the Democrats, doesn't have the credibility to govern.
So, we've heard it before. I think it was more repetition, hoping that that sticks. Of course, we'll have to see what happens in the next debate coming up on Friday between the two guys at the top of the ticket.
SANCHEZ: Do you know what I was struck by last night? Toward the end, Gwen Ifill asks them, America is so incredibly divided, not necessarily as a knock on either candidate, even the president in this case. But both of them answered, instead of talking about America and the fact that Americans are basically 50/50 on each side, seems to be vehement about the other side's positions, what they seemed to answer the question was about how Washington is divided, about how Democrats in the Senate and in the Congress can't get along with the other side.
Were you kind of struck by that, that they were staying in Washington instead of talking about the rest of us?
BISNEY: Well, I have to admit, Rick, I have covered Congress for 22 years, and you do tend to get wrapped up in that world. I suspect that was part of what was happening. When you live your life in this bubble of Washington, D.C., and particularly the highest echelons of power, sometimes you do forget about the rest of America out there. It's a legitimate charge, I think, that's made against a lot of people who spend too much time in Washington. Maybe I'm guilty if it, too.
But that is where their minds go back to. When you put them on the spot, they will look in terms of their own political background and their own experience. SANCHEZ: Interesting. Thanks for your reaction to that and your experience and your insight that you shared with us. John Bisney bringing us that.
Well, you know, the drill. A major campaign event brings out the pundits the very next day, each trying to focus on what their guy did or the other guy didn't do. It's our turn now to take in some spin. We've even got our own pundits.
Doug Schoen is a Democratic strategist with us from New York. Frank Donatelli is a Republican advisor here in D.C.
Gentlemen, get us started, if you will. Doug, how did your guy do?
DOUG SCHOEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think he did very well. I think he set the tone at the start when he said that Vice President Cheney really hadn't leveled with the American people, that there had been no link between Saddam and al Qaeda, no weapons of mass destruction, an inconsistent basis to go to war, and a war that was failing given Ambassador Bremer's statements.
So, I think that he really drove the message that Senator Kerry drove on Thursday night.
SANCHEZ: All right. That's a mantra, isn't it? It's the mantra. They told us this, but there wasn't that. They told us this, but there wasn't that.
Frank Donatelli, did it draw blood?
FRANK DONATELLI, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I don't think so, Rick. This was a debate between a principal and a surrogate. Vice President Cheney was in command of the facts. He had very, very strong things to say.
I think the best things that Cheney said were, No. 1, he brought out Kerry's Senate record of 20 years, something that the Democratic ticket has not wanted to talk about this entire campaign.
Secondly, I think and even more importantly, he tied the issue of consistency to directly to Kerry's inability to be able to fight the war on terror when he said if they can't stand up to Howard Dean, how are they going to stand up to al Qaeda?
I thought it was a very strong performance by the vice president.
SANCHEZ: Is that fair? Do you think it was Howard Dean's performance early in the primaries that led Senator Kerry to suddenly become more forceful on the issue of Iraq? Was that a fair accusation that the vice president leveled last night?
SCHOEN: I don't think so. I think what John Edwards tried to explain, and he did quite well, is why he and Senator Kerry had voted both for giving the president the authority to declare war, but made it clear why the prosecution of the war was unsuccessful... SANCHEZ: Well, hold on. Doug, let's go back to my question. Did Senator Kerry change his philosophy on this war because Howard Dean was getting a lot of people talking about it?
SCHOEN: Not at all. And I think Senator Edwards made it clear why that wasn't the case, and he explained the Kerry policy on Iraq in a way that I think elaborated what we heard Thursday night.
SANCHEZ: I want you guys to watch something.
DONATELLI: Rick...
SANCHEZ: Hold on. I want you to watch something here real quick. This is a little bit of a Malcavalean (ph) maneuver, I believe. And I want to get your opinions on this. This is the whole issue of the gay marriage debate. Let's take a listen to what both said last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: The fact is that the president felt that it was important to make it clear that that's the wrong way to go as far as he's concerned. Now, he sets policy for this administration, and I support the president.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me say first that I think the vice president and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you can't have anything but respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter. The fact that they embrace her is a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their children, who want their children to be happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That's interesting. The vice president didn't bring up the fact that he had a gay daughter. The senator brought up the fact that he has a gay daughter. Do you think he did it because he wanted the American people to know that the vice president had a gay daughter? Was that a Malcavalean (ph) maneuver on the senator's part?
SCHOEN: I don't think so. I think the senator was making it very clear that the whole issue of domestic partnerships and civil rights for all Americans was an issue that reaches the upper levels of power in Washington. And that he made it clear that the vice president, in a heartfelt and caring way, faces some conflicts personally with the stated policies of his administration.
SANCHEZ: Frank, was he just being a good guy and wanted to say that? Or did he perceive that there might be a weakness there on the part of some people who may perhaps view the vice president differently?
DONATELLI: No, I don't think so. I take senator at his word on that. I thought it was a very kind statement. Let me just say a couple of things real quickly. First, there is no way that you can justify the Kerry and Edward's positions on Iraq, except by reference to the political calendar. That's very clear.
But secondly, on the gay marriage thing, the president's position is very clear that judges, unelected judges should not decide this issues, Rick. And we just had another example yesterday where a judge struck down an amendment in Louisiana, passed by an overwhelming vote of the people, because it was unconstitutional, according to them.
This is a matter the president strongly believes that the people should be able to decide.
SANCHEZ: Gentlemen, thank you. We'll have to leave that as the last word.
SCHOEN: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: It's been an interesting conversation. I hope we get the chance to do it again.
SCHOEN: I hope so.
SANCHEZ: Thank you very much.
SCHOEN: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Let's check in with Bill in Cleveland for a look at what's coming up now on "AMERICAN MORNING."
I get to fly up there and be you tomorrow, Bill. How is that?
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Rick, good morning to you.
Listen, we're going to have a whole lot of talk today about the fallout from last night at this vice presidential debate. Of course, we'll examine who won. And what does it mean ultimately for this presidential match-up? We'll grade the debate. We'll fact-check the candidates, too.
Ninety minutes going head-to-head last night. It was serious, Rick. It was direct, and it was focused, too.
And speaking of focused, our own focus group down the road in Columbus, Ohio, last night, how did they grade last night's debate? Real-time responses from 24 mostly undecided voters in central Ohio.
Also, we'll talk more about this flu, a potential disaster here. The maker of nearly half of the U.S. flu vaccine finds contamination in its supply. How are health officials dealing with this sudden shortage? We will have a look at that in-depth as well.
There's a lot to talk about, Rick, as you can imagine. And we'll get all to it at the top of the hour here on "AMERICAN MORNING."
Back to you now at the CNN center, on a chilly day, by the way... SANCHEZ: Good work, Bill. Thank you.
HEMMER: ... I hear in Cleveland. You got it, Rick, talk to you later.
SANCHEZ: All right, thanks.
Oh, just the facts. That's where Bill Schneider takes us next as he runs down what was true and maybe what wasn't true in last night's debate.
Also, we're going to go live to the Nasdaq Marketsite for a preview of the mood on Wall Street.
But first, here's a look at what else is making news on this Wednesday morning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to DAYBREAK. I'm Rick Sanchez filling in for Carol Costello.
The vice presidential debaters may have stretched the facts a little bit last night. So, our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider, tries to set the record straight on some of the misstatements from both sides.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Dick Cheney said Edwards was wrong when he claimed that 90 percent of the coalition casualties in Iraq have been Americans. Cheney said the correct figure was closer to 50 percent.
But according to the Pentagon and the Central Command, 88 and a half percent of the coalition military fatalities in Iraq since the war begin have been Americans. Cheney was changing the base to include losses by Iraqi security forces. Edwards was referring to the coalition forces that invaded Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein.
Another point: Edwards said the U.S. has spent $200 billion and counting on the Iraq war. The Office of Management and Budget says the cost through September 20, '04 has actually been $120 billion. The $200 billion figure includes money allocated for the coming fiscal year, some of which is actually earmarked for Afghanistan.
So, the claim that the United States is spending 90 percent of the costs in Iraq appears to have been a bit of an exaggeration by Mr. Edwards.
And finally this: Dick Cheney said 900,000 small businesses that create new jobs will be hit by Kerry's tax increase. Listen to what the vice president said.
CHENEY: A great many of our small businesses pay taxes under the personal income tax rather than the corporate rate. And about 900,000 small businesses will be hit if you do, in fact, do what they want to do with the top bracket. That's not smart, because 7 out of 10 new jobs in America are created by small businesses.
SCHNEIDER: Now, the Tax Policy Center tells us that only 471,000 small businesses would actually face a tax increase from the Kerry plan, and those that file tax returns as individuals include a lot of so-called sideline businesses, such as occasional rentals of yachts and condos. Most of those who pay higher taxes under Kerry's plan are individuals who are not primarily business owners. And a lot of them, a huge number they say, have no employees at all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Bill Schneider, as usual, extrapolating the facts for us. CNN is going to have more fact-checks for you Friday night after George Bush and John Kerry go for round two. Our coverage of their debate begins at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
We haven't even passed Halloween, but the holiday shopping season has already begun.
Carrie Lee is ready to tell us about the hot toys your kids may want this year. Oh, no!
CARRIE LEE, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: It's never too early.
SANCHEZ: She joins us now from the Nasdaq marketplace. Hey, Carrie. Good morning.
LEE: Hey, Rick.
It's never too early to start talking about the toys. Barbie dolls from the Princess and the Pauper line, as well as some high-tech toys featuring Elmo and Barney are on the hot holiday list, the top dozen toys expected to sell this year. This is from "Toy Wishes" magazine.
Now, clearly the dominant trend this year: more toys based on technology. Five of the 12 on the list incorporate an interactive screen experience, an interactive screen element into the play experience.
Even old friends like Elmo. Take a look, 29.99, is getting a technology enhancement this year. The new Elmo from manufacturer Fisher Price uses his arms and legs to spell out all of the letters in his name, sort of like the old YMCA exercise that some people like to do.
Turning to stocks, futures are looking pretty flat at this point. A lot of people are waiting for the big jobs report on Friday. The unemployment rate is expected to hold steady at 5.4 percent.
We're expecting to add 150,000 jobs, but not such a bullish report earlier this week from Challenger, Gray & Christmas. This is an outplacement firm, talking about expected job layoffs in September. And that figure is soaring to an 8-month high. Over 107,000 planned layoffs, according to this report. That is an increase of 41 percent from the year-ago September, and an increase of 45 percent in August.
So, a lot of people are thinking that the jobs market is getting better, Rick. But that report from Challenger, Gray is not exactly bullish.
Also, oil prices are in focus, of course. Oil closing above the $51 a barrel mark for the first time ever yesterday.
That's the latest. Back to you.
SANCHEZ: All right, thanks a lot, Carrie. We certainly appreciate the update.
Back to our focus on the debate now. In the words of one voter, Senator Edwards and Vice President Cheney both bashed each other pretty good. Ron Brownstein joins us to talk about last night's more colorful moments next.
From Atlanta, this is DAYBREAK. Chad is sitting next to me, and we say good morning. And we'll see you on the other side of this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Hey, welcome back, everybody.
Let's more on that debate now between the vice president and the vice president wannabe last night.
CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein is joining us from Washington with some of his insights.
Hey, Ron, how are you?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.
I'm a little -- I feel like I've been in a heavyweight fight watching that one last night. There was...
SANCHEZ: It was interesting.
BROWNSTEIN: ... a lot of leather...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: They asked them to sit down, and yet you'd think that they were going toe-to-toe, huh?
BROWNSTEIN: Yes, absolutely. The first words -- the first substantive words out of John Edwards' mouth was, Mr. Vice President, you are still not being straight with the American people.
SANCHEZ: Wow! BROWNSTEIN: And, you know, it sort of went on from there. You know, Vice President Cheney didn't give an inch. As in 2000, he was a very effective prosecutor. But Edwards, the former plaintiffs' attorney, really didn't give an inch either and answered each attack with an attack of his own.
I thought it was very revealing of the strategies of both campaigns.
SANCHEZ: Were...
BROWNSTEIN: Their focus from Bush, keep the focus on the Edwards-Cheney (sic) record. Their focus from Edwards and Kerry, keep the focus on the past four years, especially Iraq.
SANCHEZ: Were you surprised to see Senator Edwards throw the Halliburton accusation right there at his face? And then the reaction from the vice president seeming to see the accusation, and then say, yes, but you've missed 33 votes? What dynamic was going on there?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, you know, I think they were both trying to unnerve the other. The fact is that the attacks on each other are probably tangential to the presidential race. People are not voting for the vice president.
And when they went -- when they sort of detoured to, well, you didn't show up to vote, you know, of course, Cheney accused Edwards of dodging taxes himself, and then Edwards attacked Cheney on his voting record in the House of Representatives, those really aren't relevant, I don't think.
Where they are relevant is where they did advance and sharpen sort of the broader argument that each side makes against the other one. And in some ways, I thought they presented the case more succinctly and certainly more forcefully than Kerry and Bush did themselves last week, whether it was on Iraq or for the first time we heard some of the arguments on domestic issues that we're likely to hear Friday and next week in Arizona.
SANCHEZ: Down to 30 seconds. So, let me ask you this: Not guys like you and I who sit there and study this stuff and take copious notes as we're watching the debate as if we were dealing with a box score in baseball. But did the average guy in Topeka who is watching this thing, what do you think he'll come away with?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think that they will come away with and the biggest impression will be of the aggression of both sides. I mean, the Democrats signaled they want to challenge the veracity of the administration. How many times did Edwards accuse Cheney of misleading the American people?
And certainly on the other side, the clear emphasis is experience, strength and consistency. Cheney made the argument this is a unique period in American history and really tried to underscore the idea that it's a threat to change horses in the middle of a threat -- of a war like this. And I think those were the dominant notes.
But maybe above all, the stylistic contrast between these two men. In every possible way, the one thing that joined them, they were both very tough.
SANCHEZ: Ron Brownstein, we thank you for your insights.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you. Good talking to you.
SANCHEZ: Back after a quick. But first, this is DAYBREAK for Wednesday morning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Boy, it's been fun to be here. And you have been so nice, Chad Myers.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, it's been great working with you.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Everyone said you were going to be so mean.
MYERS: Yes. That's me, "Mr. Mean." "Mr. Mean Guy."
Hey, do you know what? We had a 1.8 earthquake over Mount Rainer overnight. We'll have to see what that means. We'll have more on that on "AMERICAN MORNING."
SANCHEZ: Say Yakima one more time.
MYERS: Yakima.
SANCHEZ: Thank you very much.
Speaking of "AMERICAN MORNING," Chad and I are throwing it to them, and we are going to play golf or something like that.
MYERS: I will.
SANCHEZ: Here is "AMERICAN MORNING."
MYERS: See you tomorrow.
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Aired October 6, 2004 - 06:29 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone, from the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta. I'm Rick Sanchez. Carol Costello is off today.
"Now in the News."
Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction at the time of the U.S. invasion last year, but he may have been planning to revive his WMD programs. That is the final word from the experts sent to Iraq to search for banned weapons. The team delivers its findings to a Senate committee this morning.
The U.S. military launched an airstrike on a house in Fallujah, where insurgents were thought to be plotting attacks in Iraq. Three houses, we understand, were destroyed. We're following the story. No injuries reported.
Washington is delaying plans for its troop reduction in South Korea. One-third of U.S. troops were to have pulled out of the peninsula by the end of next year, but the deadline has now been pushed back to 2008.
Iran has reportedly started processing uranium for enrichment. The process can be used to make material for nuclear weapons. Iran insists its nuclear program is for peaceful purposes as in energy and not for building weapons.
(WEATHER REPORT)
SANCHEZ: We're going to devote the next 30 minutes to last night's vice presidential debate. They shook hands, and then the gloves came off. Was it style over substance, or just the opposite? We're going to take a look at what was said and what wasn't said from each side of the political aisle.
Also, we're going to do a little fact-checking for you. CNN senior political analyst, and none better we should say, than Bill Schneider, he's going to tell us if the candidates knew what they were talking about.
Also, Ron Brownstein is going to join us with last night's more colorful moments as well.
We're bringing you all of that, so get ready.
Well, we're going to start where it all began in the battleground state of Ohio. Some viewers had been surprised last night when the vice president said that he had never met John Edwards. We have found out the two actually have met.
CNN's John Bisney is joining us now on the phone from Cleveland.
Hey, John, how are you doing?
JOHN BISNEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Pretty good, Rick. Thanks.
SANCHEZ: Let's do this for our viewers. We've got a couple of video clips here I want to share with our viewers. Last night, Mr. Cheney did, in fact, say he'd only met Senator Edwards for the very first time right there while they were debating. Well, take a look at this video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Do you solemnly swear that you will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that you will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, that you take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion, and that you will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which you are about to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It's a swearing-in ceremony that you're looking at, and apparently they shake hands. Let's hold the video. Let's roll it so you can see it. Well, they did actually, obviously, at some point shake hands.
Now, watch this. This is Senator Edwards' wife last night going to the vice president and telling him, what do you mean we've never met before?
An interesting dynamic. What do you make of this?
BISNEY: Yes, I was surprised to hear Mr. Cheney make that claim, Rick. He is the presiding officer of the Senate, and he said he comes up there every Tuesday for the party policy lunches and had never run into Edwards. Well, I mean, I suppose that's possible, because they divide up into their parties.
But, yes, we found out they had met twice before, in fact. In 2001, on February 1, they attended the National Prayer Breakfast together, and apparently the two couples sat next to each other for a couple of hours. And then you saw that video of him swearing in the new senators.
So, either Mr. Cheney has a faulty memory, or he decided to make some political hay out of -- the reference there was that John Edwards was never around Capitol Hill and had missed a lot of votes.
SANCHEZ: To be fair, though, when you a have a position like vice president of the United States and you are clearly the second- most important man in the free world, you meet a lot of people, and some of them may even be junior senators and you may actually forget the encounter. Is it fair to say that?
BISNEY: I suppose that's fair to say that. You know, there are a lot of stories about President Reagan forgetting certain members of his cabinet, in fact, at one time, referring to one of them as a mayor. So, you do meet a lot of people. I suppose it can slip your mind.
On the other hand, John Edwards is somebody who, now that he's running against you, you may have reached back in your memory and said, my gosh, I do remember running into that guy. I don't really know what the truth is there.
SANCHEZ: Hey, John, I want to ask you about this whole flip-flop thing, because that's become such a major issue. Our correspondents, when they talk to people all over America, that's the one negative that comes up with the Kerry campaign.
Last night, Senator Edwards was able to delineate what he considers the flip-flops of the Bush administration. Do you think he did a good job with that? Will it have teeth?
BISNEY: Yes, I don't know that it will have any teeth beyond what we've already heard. The Republicans, as you know, have spent a lot of money on advertising, saying that Kerry has flip-flopped on the war in Iraq, the funding, that sort of thing. And that was the same theme that Cheney tried to drive home last night; that this ticket, the Democrats, doesn't have the credibility to govern.
So, we've heard it before. I think it was more repetition, hoping that that sticks. Of course, we'll have to see what happens in the next debate coming up on Friday between the two guys at the top of the ticket.
SANCHEZ: Do you know what I was struck by last night? Toward the end, Gwen Ifill asks them, America is so incredibly divided, not necessarily as a knock on either candidate, even the president in this case. But both of them answered, instead of talking about America and the fact that Americans are basically 50/50 on each side, seems to be vehement about the other side's positions, what they seemed to answer the question was about how Washington is divided, about how Democrats in the Senate and in the Congress can't get along with the other side.
Were you kind of struck by that, that they were staying in Washington instead of talking about the rest of us?
BISNEY: Well, I have to admit, Rick, I have covered Congress for 22 years, and you do tend to get wrapped up in that world. I suspect that was part of what was happening. When you live your life in this bubble of Washington, D.C., and particularly the highest echelons of power, sometimes you do forget about the rest of America out there. It's a legitimate charge, I think, that's made against a lot of people who spend too much time in Washington. Maybe I'm guilty if it, too.
But that is where their minds go back to. When you put them on the spot, they will look in terms of their own political background and their own experience. SANCHEZ: Interesting. Thanks for your reaction to that and your experience and your insight that you shared with us. John Bisney bringing us that.
Well, you know, the drill. A major campaign event brings out the pundits the very next day, each trying to focus on what their guy did or the other guy didn't do. It's our turn now to take in some spin. We've even got our own pundits.
Doug Schoen is a Democratic strategist with us from New York. Frank Donatelli is a Republican advisor here in D.C.
Gentlemen, get us started, if you will. Doug, how did your guy do?
DOUG SCHOEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: I think he did very well. I think he set the tone at the start when he said that Vice President Cheney really hadn't leveled with the American people, that there had been no link between Saddam and al Qaeda, no weapons of mass destruction, an inconsistent basis to go to war, and a war that was failing given Ambassador Bremer's statements.
So, I think that he really drove the message that Senator Kerry drove on Thursday night.
SANCHEZ: All right. That's a mantra, isn't it? It's the mantra. They told us this, but there wasn't that. They told us this, but there wasn't that.
Frank Donatelli, did it draw blood?
FRANK DONATELLI, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I don't think so, Rick. This was a debate between a principal and a surrogate. Vice President Cheney was in command of the facts. He had very, very strong things to say.
I think the best things that Cheney said were, No. 1, he brought out Kerry's Senate record of 20 years, something that the Democratic ticket has not wanted to talk about this entire campaign.
Secondly, I think and even more importantly, he tied the issue of consistency to directly to Kerry's inability to be able to fight the war on terror when he said if they can't stand up to Howard Dean, how are they going to stand up to al Qaeda?
I thought it was a very strong performance by the vice president.
SANCHEZ: Is that fair? Do you think it was Howard Dean's performance early in the primaries that led Senator Kerry to suddenly become more forceful on the issue of Iraq? Was that a fair accusation that the vice president leveled last night?
SCHOEN: I don't think so. I think what John Edwards tried to explain, and he did quite well, is why he and Senator Kerry had voted both for giving the president the authority to declare war, but made it clear why the prosecution of the war was unsuccessful... SANCHEZ: Well, hold on. Doug, let's go back to my question. Did Senator Kerry change his philosophy on this war because Howard Dean was getting a lot of people talking about it?
SCHOEN: Not at all. And I think Senator Edwards made it clear why that wasn't the case, and he explained the Kerry policy on Iraq in a way that I think elaborated what we heard Thursday night.
SANCHEZ: I want you guys to watch something.
DONATELLI: Rick...
SANCHEZ: Hold on. I want you to watch something here real quick. This is a little bit of a Malcavalean (ph) maneuver, I believe. And I want to get your opinions on this. This is the whole issue of the gay marriage debate. Let's take a listen to what both said last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: The fact is that the president felt that it was important to make it clear that that's the wrong way to go as far as he's concerned. Now, he sets policy for this administration, and I support the president.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Let me say first that I think the vice president and his wife love their daughter. I think they love her very much. And you can't have anything but respect for the fact that they're willing to talk about the fact that they have a gay daughter. The fact that they embrace her is a wonderful thing. And there are millions of parents like that who love their children, who want their children to be happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: That's interesting. The vice president didn't bring up the fact that he had a gay daughter. The senator brought up the fact that he has a gay daughter. Do you think he did it because he wanted the American people to know that the vice president had a gay daughter? Was that a Malcavalean (ph) maneuver on the senator's part?
SCHOEN: I don't think so. I think the senator was making it very clear that the whole issue of domestic partnerships and civil rights for all Americans was an issue that reaches the upper levels of power in Washington. And that he made it clear that the vice president, in a heartfelt and caring way, faces some conflicts personally with the stated policies of his administration.
SANCHEZ: Frank, was he just being a good guy and wanted to say that? Or did he perceive that there might be a weakness there on the part of some people who may perhaps view the vice president differently?
DONATELLI: No, I don't think so. I take senator at his word on that. I thought it was a very kind statement. Let me just say a couple of things real quickly. First, there is no way that you can justify the Kerry and Edward's positions on Iraq, except by reference to the political calendar. That's very clear.
But secondly, on the gay marriage thing, the president's position is very clear that judges, unelected judges should not decide this issues, Rick. And we just had another example yesterday where a judge struck down an amendment in Louisiana, passed by an overwhelming vote of the people, because it was unconstitutional, according to them.
This is a matter the president strongly believes that the people should be able to decide.
SANCHEZ: Gentlemen, thank you. We'll have to leave that as the last word.
SCHOEN: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: It's been an interesting conversation. I hope we get the chance to do it again.
SCHOEN: I hope so.
SANCHEZ: Thank you very much.
SCHOEN: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Let's check in with Bill in Cleveland for a look at what's coming up now on "AMERICAN MORNING."
I get to fly up there and be you tomorrow, Bill. How is that?
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Rick, good morning to you.
Listen, we're going to have a whole lot of talk today about the fallout from last night at this vice presidential debate. Of course, we'll examine who won. And what does it mean ultimately for this presidential match-up? We'll grade the debate. We'll fact-check the candidates, too.
Ninety minutes going head-to-head last night. It was serious, Rick. It was direct, and it was focused, too.
And speaking of focused, our own focus group down the road in Columbus, Ohio, last night, how did they grade last night's debate? Real-time responses from 24 mostly undecided voters in central Ohio.
Also, we'll talk more about this flu, a potential disaster here. The maker of nearly half of the U.S. flu vaccine finds contamination in its supply. How are health officials dealing with this sudden shortage? We will have a look at that in-depth as well.
There's a lot to talk about, Rick, as you can imagine. And we'll get all to it at the top of the hour here on "AMERICAN MORNING."
Back to you now at the CNN center, on a chilly day, by the way... SANCHEZ: Good work, Bill. Thank you.
HEMMER: ... I hear in Cleveland. You got it, Rick, talk to you later.
SANCHEZ: All right, thanks.
Oh, just the facts. That's where Bill Schneider takes us next as he runs down what was true and maybe what wasn't true in last night's debate.
Also, we're going to go live to the Nasdaq Marketsite for a preview of the mood on Wall Street.
But first, here's a look at what else is making news on this Wednesday morning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back to DAYBREAK. I'm Rick Sanchez filling in for Carol Costello.
The vice presidential debaters may have stretched the facts a little bit last night. So, our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider, tries to set the record straight on some of the misstatements from both sides.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Dick Cheney said Edwards was wrong when he claimed that 90 percent of the coalition casualties in Iraq have been Americans. Cheney said the correct figure was closer to 50 percent.
But according to the Pentagon and the Central Command, 88 and a half percent of the coalition military fatalities in Iraq since the war begin have been Americans. Cheney was changing the base to include losses by Iraqi security forces. Edwards was referring to the coalition forces that invaded Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein.
Another point: Edwards said the U.S. has spent $200 billion and counting on the Iraq war. The Office of Management and Budget says the cost through September 20, '04 has actually been $120 billion. The $200 billion figure includes money allocated for the coming fiscal year, some of which is actually earmarked for Afghanistan.
So, the claim that the United States is spending 90 percent of the costs in Iraq appears to have been a bit of an exaggeration by Mr. Edwards.
And finally this: Dick Cheney said 900,000 small businesses that create new jobs will be hit by Kerry's tax increase. Listen to what the vice president said.
CHENEY: A great many of our small businesses pay taxes under the personal income tax rather than the corporate rate. And about 900,000 small businesses will be hit if you do, in fact, do what they want to do with the top bracket. That's not smart, because 7 out of 10 new jobs in America are created by small businesses.
SCHNEIDER: Now, the Tax Policy Center tells us that only 471,000 small businesses would actually face a tax increase from the Kerry plan, and those that file tax returns as individuals include a lot of so-called sideline businesses, such as occasional rentals of yachts and condos. Most of those who pay higher taxes under Kerry's plan are individuals who are not primarily business owners. And a lot of them, a huge number they say, have no employees at all.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Bill Schneider, as usual, extrapolating the facts for us. CNN is going to have more fact-checks for you Friday night after George Bush and John Kerry go for round two. Our coverage of their debate begins at 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
We haven't even passed Halloween, but the holiday shopping season has already begun.
Carrie Lee is ready to tell us about the hot toys your kids may want this year. Oh, no!
CARRIE LEE, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: It's never too early.
SANCHEZ: She joins us now from the Nasdaq marketplace. Hey, Carrie. Good morning.
LEE: Hey, Rick.
It's never too early to start talking about the toys. Barbie dolls from the Princess and the Pauper line, as well as some high-tech toys featuring Elmo and Barney are on the hot holiday list, the top dozen toys expected to sell this year. This is from "Toy Wishes" magazine.
Now, clearly the dominant trend this year: more toys based on technology. Five of the 12 on the list incorporate an interactive screen experience, an interactive screen element into the play experience.
Even old friends like Elmo. Take a look, 29.99, is getting a technology enhancement this year. The new Elmo from manufacturer Fisher Price uses his arms and legs to spell out all of the letters in his name, sort of like the old YMCA exercise that some people like to do.
Turning to stocks, futures are looking pretty flat at this point. A lot of people are waiting for the big jobs report on Friday. The unemployment rate is expected to hold steady at 5.4 percent.
We're expecting to add 150,000 jobs, but not such a bullish report earlier this week from Challenger, Gray & Christmas. This is an outplacement firm, talking about expected job layoffs in September. And that figure is soaring to an 8-month high. Over 107,000 planned layoffs, according to this report. That is an increase of 41 percent from the year-ago September, and an increase of 45 percent in August.
So, a lot of people are thinking that the jobs market is getting better, Rick. But that report from Challenger, Gray is not exactly bullish.
Also, oil prices are in focus, of course. Oil closing above the $51 a barrel mark for the first time ever yesterday.
That's the latest. Back to you.
SANCHEZ: All right, thanks a lot, Carrie. We certainly appreciate the update.
Back to our focus on the debate now. In the words of one voter, Senator Edwards and Vice President Cheney both bashed each other pretty good. Ron Brownstein joins us to talk about last night's more colorful moments next.
From Atlanta, this is DAYBREAK. Chad is sitting next to me, and we say good morning. And we'll see you on the other side of this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Hey, welcome back, everybody.
Let's more on that debate now between the vice president and the vice president wannabe last night.
CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein is joining us from Washington with some of his insights.
Hey, Ron, how are you?
RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.
I'm a little -- I feel like I've been in a heavyweight fight watching that one last night. There was...
SANCHEZ: It was interesting.
BROWNSTEIN: ... a lot of leather...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: They asked them to sit down, and yet you'd think that they were going toe-to-toe, huh?
BROWNSTEIN: Yes, absolutely. The first words -- the first substantive words out of John Edwards' mouth was, Mr. Vice President, you are still not being straight with the American people.
SANCHEZ: Wow! BROWNSTEIN: And, you know, it sort of went on from there. You know, Vice President Cheney didn't give an inch. As in 2000, he was a very effective prosecutor. But Edwards, the former plaintiffs' attorney, really didn't give an inch either and answered each attack with an attack of his own.
I thought it was very revealing of the strategies of both campaigns.
SANCHEZ: Were...
BROWNSTEIN: Their focus from Bush, keep the focus on the Edwards-Cheney (sic) record. Their focus from Edwards and Kerry, keep the focus on the past four years, especially Iraq.
SANCHEZ: Were you surprised to see Senator Edwards throw the Halliburton accusation right there at his face? And then the reaction from the vice president seeming to see the accusation, and then say, yes, but you've missed 33 votes? What dynamic was going on there?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, you know, I think they were both trying to unnerve the other. The fact is that the attacks on each other are probably tangential to the presidential race. People are not voting for the vice president.
And when they went -- when they sort of detoured to, well, you didn't show up to vote, you know, of course, Cheney accused Edwards of dodging taxes himself, and then Edwards attacked Cheney on his voting record in the House of Representatives, those really aren't relevant, I don't think.
Where they are relevant is where they did advance and sharpen sort of the broader argument that each side makes against the other one. And in some ways, I thought they presented the case more succinctly and certainly more forcefully than Kerry and Bush did themselves last week, whether it was on Iraq or for the first time we heard some of the arguments on domestic issues that we're likely to hear Friday and next week in Arizona.
SANCHEZ: Down to 30 seconds. So, let me ask you this: Not guys like you and I who sit there and study this stuff and take copious notes as we're watching the debate as if we were dealing with a box score in baseball. But did the average guy in Topeka who is watching this thing, what do you think he'll come away with?
BROWNSTEIN: Well, I think that they will come away with and the biggest impression will be of the aggression of both sides. I mean, the Democrats signaled they want to challenge the veracity of the administration. How many times did Edwards accuse Cheney of misleading the American people?
And certainly on the other side, the clear emphasis is experience, strength and consistency. Cheney made the argument this is a unique period in American history and really tried to underscore the idea that it's a threat to change horses in the middle of a threat -- of a war like this. And I think those were the dominant notes.
But maybe above all, the stylistic contrast between these two men. In every possible way, the one thing that joined them, they were both very tough.
SANCHEZ: Ron Brownstein, we thank you for your insights.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you. Good talking to you.
SANCHEZ: Back after a quick. But first, this is DAYBREAK for Wednesday morning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Boy, it's been fun to be here. And you have been so nice, Chad Myers.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, it's been great working with you.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Everyone said you were going to be so mean.
MYERS: Yes. That's me, "Mr. Mean." "Mr. Mean Guy."
Hey, do you know what? We had a 1.8 earthquake over Mount Rainer overnight. We'll have to see what that means. We'll have more on that on "AMERICAN MORNING."
SANCHEZ: Say Yakima one more time.
MYERS: Yakima.
SANCHEZ: Thank you very much.
Speaking of "AMERICAN MORNING," Chad and I are throwing it to them, and we are going to play golf or something like that.
MYERS: I will.
SANCHEZ: Here is "AMERICAN MORNING."
MYERS: See you tomorrow.
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