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American Morning

Who Won the One and Only Vice Presidential Debate?; Will U.S. Face a Flu Epidemic This Winter?

Aired October 06, 2004 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your rhetoric, senator, would be a lot more credible if there was a record to back it up. There isn't.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They have a plan for Iraq, too -- more of the same.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It was low key, but it was hard hitting for 90 minutes. Who won the one and only vice presidential debate?

Will the U.S. face a flu epidemic this winter after half the nation's vaccine doses are declared unusable?

And the master of the self-inflicted punch line has died. Rodney Dangerfield remembered and respected on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING.

Live from Cleveland, Ohio, here's Bill Hemmer.

HEMMER: Good morning.

That building is a beautiful and stunning building in daylight, too. That's the Cleveland Museum of Art.

And good morning.

Welcome back to our coverage again, as we roll on now in Campaign 2004.

Four weeks from yesterday is when Americans vote. Now 27 days away from Election 2004. And with the vice presidential debate now at Case Western University behind us, we're now mulling over the winners and the losers from last night.

Republicans and Democrats quickly claimed their guy was the clear winner. The polling suggests, from the ABC News camp and the CBS News camp, a bit of a mixed opinion last night. So we'll get reaction from both campaigns on that today.

Also, Kamber and May are back with us today looking at who had the most to gain last night and whether or not the candidates got their message across. We'll get to that all this hour here.

And from New York, Heidi Collins is back there -- Heidi, good morning again to you back in New York City.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you, once again, Bill.

A little bit warmer in this studio, that's for sure.

I'm feeling lucky this morning.

I want to let you know about other stories we're following today.

Our series on alternative punishments for criminals continues today. This morning, we're looking at the power of shame -- is public humiliation an effective tool in deterring crime? We're going to look at both sides of that discussion.

And Jack is off today, but Carlos Watson will be taking your e- mail this morning. We're going to give you a chance to weigh in on the debate last night.

Meanwhile, now in the news this morning, U.S. forces are stepping up the attacks on suspected militants in the Iraqi city of Fallujah. Multinational forces pummeled a suspected safe house in a major air strike earlier today. Military officials say they launched the strike after reports confirmed leaders of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's terror network were meeting at the house.

Still no clear details about a potential link between Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Saddam Hussein. A new CIA report found no conclusive evidence showing Saddam gave al-Zarqawi refuge in Baghdad prior to 1993. Officials say al-Zarqawi was in Iraq before the war, but it isn't clear that Saddam's regime was aware of it.

Well, this is usually the time of year you're told to get that flu shot. Well, the British Health Department announced yesterday that almost 50 million doses of the U.S. flu vaccine will not be available. I spoke to Dr. Fauci earlier about who should get the flu shot in light of the potential shortage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTE ALLERGIES AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Earlier, we had recommended essentially to everyone who is within the categories of possibly getting it to get the vaccine. What we're doing right now is that we're telling people to forestall that so that we can get to the people who really do need it and are of the highest risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Once again, Dr. Anthony Fauci of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases this morning.

Meanwhile, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to have more on what to expect from this year's flu season. That'll be coming up later in this hour.

Well, Ricky Williams trying to get back on the football field. The former Dolphins running back is asking the NFL to clarify his playing status so that he can return to Miami. His agent says Williams was fined more than $8 million for breach of contract when he announced his retirement in July. He has acknowledged testing positive for drug use three times.

Back now to Bill once again in Cleveland.

HEMMER: Hey, Let me get this, Ricky Williams wants a do over, huh?

COLLINS: He wants a do over, that's for sure. Yes, instant replay.

HEMMER: Well, the Dolphins could use him.

COLLINS: Yes.

HEMMER: Thank you, Heidi.

The dust has not yet settled yet from last night's bruising vice presidential debate. Both candidates, though, back on the campaign trail already today and both will be heading to Florida.

Joe Johns is with the Edwards campaign in West Palm Beach and Dana Bash is with Team Cheney in Tallahassee.

We start this hour with Joe -- good morning, there.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

It's also warmer here than it is in Cleveland. Edwards, of course, is coming here to Palm Beach for a noon rally in Palm Beach. The campaign coming off of a tense and well argued debate that was almost bitter at times. Edwards answering that all important question about his experience compared to Dick Cheney, with a broad side attack on the administration's policies and record.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARDS: The vice president and president like to talk about their experience on the campaign trail. Millions of people have lost their jobs. Millions have fallen into poverty. And family incomes are down, while the cost of everything is going up. Medical costs up the highest they've ever been over the last four years. We have this mess in Iraq. Mr. Vice President, I don't think the country can take four more years of this kind of experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: After the debate, Edwards appeared at a late night rally in Cleveland. He is wasting no time getting back to the campaign trail, headed here to Florida, where the race is tight. The campaign is hoping to make up for lost time in Florida, a state, of course, that has been ravaged by four hurricanes in recent weeks.

Bill -- back to you.

HEMMER: Joe, thanks for that.

Let's stay in Florida with Dana Bash -- Dana, good morning there in Tallahassee.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

You know, the Bush-Cheney team is breathing a sigh of relief this morning, clearly feeling a lot better now than they did last week, after the president's debate. And, of course, you just heard Joe say that Senator Edwards feels that he did well defending himself on experience, while the vice president's team thinks that that was a major goal that he hit, talking about the experience issue, saying, Cheney saying point blank that Senator Edwards has a record that is not very distinguished and that the Democratic ticket isn't prepared to deal with state sponsored terrorism.

Now, the Republicans, though, think perhaps he was most effective on the Iraq issue, that if Senators Kerry and Edwards shifted with the political winds, he said, during the Democratic primary, do they really have what it takes to lead?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: So they, in effect, decided they would cast an anti-war vote and they voted against the troops. Now, if they couldn't stand up to the pressures that Howard Dean represented, how can we expect them to stand up to al Qaeda?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, but right out of the box, the vice president was on the defensive on the Iraq issue. He, of course, is the primary defender of a link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. That is an issue that has been out there recently in the news, questions even from the president's own team.

Now, the president today is -- does see, his team does see the fact that since his debate, his numbers have gone down on Iraq. He has shifted his strategy today. He is not, no longer going to talk about medical liability in Pennsylvania. He is going to give, instead, a significant speech on Iraq. That is something that his campaign obviously thinks is important, because they say it's important to sharpen his attacks on John Kerry.

Democrats, of course, say that he is simply trying to make up for a debate that he had against John Kerry and they say he didn't do very well -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Dana, thanks.

The focus on Florida with Joe Johns and Dana Bash.

Thanks to you both for that.

And Dana mentioned the speech, you can see it later today, in two hours, in fact, 10:00 a.m. Eastern time here on CNN. We will have that for you in the State of Pennsylvania.

In the meantime, though, we want to bring in Kamber and May this morning.

From the left, Democratic strategist Victor Kamber is with us back in D.C. And also from the right, former RNC Communications Director Cliff May. We call it Kamber-May.

And gentlemen, I bid you welcome here.

CLIFFORD

MAY, FEDERATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Good morning.

VICTOR KAMBER, THE KAMBER GROUP: Good morning.

HEMMER: And Cliff, I want to start with you first and then we'll go back and forth on this.

What point do you believe Dick Cheney made the best last night?

MAY: I think the most important point he made was for the first time to put Kerry's and Edwards' record on the table as a point of debate. That didn't get done in the previous debate, it didn't get done in the Democratic national convention. He pointed out that John Kerry, for example, had voted against the first Gulf War. He pointed out that John Kerry voted against the various cold war policies of Ronald Reagan.

This has not been a subject of discussion up to now. If Bush and Cheney are clever, it will be over the days ahead.

HEMMER: All right, Victor, respond to that.

Did John Edwards defend that record effectively?

KAMBER: Oh, I don't think there's any question about it and I thought you were going to ask me the same question you asked Cliff.

HEMMER: I will in a moment. But I first wanted to get your response to this.

KAMBER: No, I thought John Edwards was very effective. What he said, basically, was we voted for the authorization for the president based on the information we had. We had different information than the president of the United States. Once we realized that this administration, this president, this vice president had no plan to get out, had no ability to continue this war in a proper way, we started questioning and voting against.

MAY: But Vic, I'm not talking about that...

KAMBER: And he never...

MAY: I'm talking about his, the record in the Senate, going back, for example, to 1990, 1991, when Senator Kerry was against getting Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait at a time when Saddam Hussein was building nuclear weapons and had a chance to swallow up all of Kuwait's oil wealth.

KAMBER: John Kerry...

MAY: John Kerry voted against that.

KAMBER: As we know...

MAY: Al Gore voted for that, you know?

KAMBER: As we also know, that George Bush's father was the one that stopped going there. I mean it's -- we had a president of the United States at that point that called an end to the war...

MAY: But he would...

KAMBER: ... not going into Kuwait, not going into Baghdad to get Saddam Hussein. I mean we had two...

MAY: No. But President...

KAMBER: We had two...

MAY: The first President Bush forced Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait and Kerry was against that. I've been surprised that hasn't been more of an issue, because that was clearly a mistake in judgment, I think, and I think maybe you think, on Kerry's part.

HEMMER: All right, hang on, Cliff.

Victor, give a response here then I want to...

KAMBER: Well, I mean, you know...

HEMMER: Victor, give a response then I want to kick it around.

KAMBER: I do not think -- well, I do not think it's a major issue to look back 12 years and talk about a vote, one vote out of thousands. And, again, I don't have the background to know what was the discussion, what was the debate at the time, the fact that Gore voted for something, Kerry voted for something else. What I do know is the commitment of John Kerry, John Edwards, their strength. And I'm not worried about...

MAY: OK...

KAMBER: And I'm not only not worried, I'm very comfortable with their leadership in terms of terrorism and in terms of protecting this country.

HEMMER: Victor, what point do you believe Senator Edwards made the most effective, the best last night?

KAMBER: Well, I think exactly the same as Cliff when he started, he pointed out the record of this administration. He dealt with their record both foreign policy and domestic policy. He, you know, and we can cite it, all the -- I mean the increase in Medicare, the increase -- the failure of education, the whole domestic problems and then the war itself, where we went into war without a plan to succeed.

The first question that was asked by Gwen Ifill was never answered, which was the Bremer question. Mr. Bremer, their potential secretary of state in the future, or certainly a secretary of defense, the close friend of George Bush's, recently has come out, if it's true, and said that, you know, we don't have enough troops or we didn't have enough troops and we never had a plan. That was the first question asked by Gwen Ifill and it was never answered by Dick Cheney.

MAY: If just making...

HEMMER: Cliff, go ahead.

MAY: If just making criticisms could make you president, Vic and I would be running right now. The problem for Kerry and for Edwards is that they have to show not only that mistakes have been made -- mistakes are made in every war -- they have to show that they have the judgment and they have the experience necessary to lead the United States through this very perilous period. I'm not sure that's what happened.

Look, I think both guys did good. I think Gwen Ifill did great as the moderator, by the way, better than any moderator we've seen recently. She was very fair and very tough on both sides. But I -- and I think both were kind of playing against type. You had John Edwards trying to show that he could be tough and I think you had Dick Cheney kind of showing his softer side and not going for the jugular the way he might have.

I don't think Edwards answered well the question about his own experience. He went on the attack but what he couldn't say is look, here's what I've done. Don't forget, neither Edwards nor Kerry has ever run a state or a company or any organization larger than a campaign, and that, too, I think, is an issue that may come up.

So I...

KAMBER: To...

MAY: Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

KAMBER: Well, two things. One, John Edwards, sitting in that chair, had more experience than George Bush did when he ran for president four years ago. And, two, when you talk about records and careers...

MAY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). KAMBER: When you talk about records and careers, the one thing that John Kerry -- that John Edwards pointed out was Dick Cheney's record and career, a man when he did vote, voted against Martin Luther King, against Nelson Mandela, against, you name the kinds of programs that this country wanted, Dick Cheney was against it.

HEMMER: Gentlemen, I wish we had 90 minutes. We don't.

But thanks for checking in with us today.

And we all wait to see what happens now in debate number two, the top of the ticket, on Friday night in St. Louis.

Kamber and May here with us again.

Much more of this debate next hour.

Bill Schneider, a very interesting focus in D.C., a fact check about what was spoken about last night. We'll check in with Bill in the 9:00 a.m. hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Also, as I mentioned earlier today, the second debate Friday night. Our live coverage starts at 7:00 Eastern on Friday evening. That debate again in St. Louis begins at 9:00 Eastern time for 90 minutes yet again.

Back to New York again and Heidi with more there -- Heidi.

COLLINS: OK, Bill, thanks.

We're going to check on the weather now.

Chad Myers once again at the CNN Center with the very latest -- good morning, Chad.

I think, from what you said last time, Las Vegas, the warm place to be kind of in the entire country.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Ninety today, yes. Not bad out there. Lots of sunshine.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COLLINS: Still to come now, shaming criminals instead of sending them to jail -- does it work? Our series, Getting Off Easy continues in a moment.

And America will not have over half of its flu vaccine supply this year. What does this mean for your family's flu shots? Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to be talking about that in a moment.

And the respect is flowing this morning for the man who joked he never got any, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING, live from New York and on the road in Cleveland.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: Nice shot this morning of the New York City skyline. You probably recognize it, I would imagine, by now.

We want to get now to our series, Getting Off Easy, alternative ideas for punishing criminals.

Today, shaming them by publicizing their crimes. But do these types of punishments work or do they lead to more problems?

In Baton Rouge, Louisiana this morning, Judge Michael Erwin, who says fear of humiliation is an effective deterrent.

Judge, good morning to you.

JUDGE MICHAEL ERWIN, EAST BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA: Good morning.

COLLINS: And here in the studio, criminal defense attorney Dan Markel, who disagrees with that.

And, Dan, good morning to you, as well.

DAN MARKEL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Heidi.

COLLINS: Judge Erwin, we want to begin with you. You have sentenced people to stand in front of stores with a sign saying things like, "I'm A Thief," and you've even told some offenders to take pictures of themselves and give them to security guards and tell them don't let me shop in your store, don't let me come in.

What happened to the old form of punishment, if you will, that says if you do the crime, you do the time?

ERWIN: Well, usually when I have done that, it's people who are second or third offenders for misdemeanor shoplifting and maybe doing the time or going to the theft deterrent classes that we have haven't worked. So I've tried to come up with something else that might actually deter them.

COLLINS: So this is mostly, as you say, for repeat offenders then?

ERWIN: Yes, ma'am.

COLLINS: All right, Dan Markel, what's wrong with shaming as a form of punishment? I want to try to be a little bit more creative here.

MARKEL: Right. Well, I think it's important that we think of alternatives to incarceration, in part because we have an over reliance on prisons as our orthodox method of punishment. And I commend Judge Erwin for coming up with some of these alternatives. However, I would disagree that shaming, public shaming and humiliation is appropriate. I believe that the constitution, for one, prohibits it as a matter of violating the dignity of every person and every citizen. And I also think that they're likely to be counter- productive. Increasingly people who wear the, you know, who have to wear these T-shirts, they're going to become badges of honor among the bling bling crowd. People are going to saying like oh, yes, you know, if Britney Spears can wear a T-shirt that says "I Used To Be A Virgin," then people are going to be pretty excited to wear equally, you know, a T-shirt that says, "Oh, Yes, I Steal Mail," you know? People aren't going to really take it seriously.

COLLINS: Judge Erwin, is that part of the criticism then, I mean that possibly these types of punishments could trigger more anger and not really reform?

ERWIN: It's been my experience that it helps the people and I've certainly gotten a lot of feedback from the community, from the people who own the stores where these people have been sent and tell me that they think it's a good idea and that it's working.

COLLINS: So do you think, then, that because people are preferring these punishments instead of spending time in prison, because it could be argued that we're saving spaces, sending people to prison by doing this type of thing, that they are more welcoming and more wanting to turn their lives around.

ERWIN: That's a possibility. But generally I look at it as something that might also effect the rest of the community. And when they see things like that happening, that somebody is being humiliated, they have to go stand in front of the store with a sign, they might say to themselves, boy, I sure hope I never have to do that and have an effect on them to keep them from perhaps going down the criminal path.

COLLINS: Mr. Markel, you say still no way, not the best way to do this.

But then give me an idea of what some alternative punishments could be, some solutions that might work.

MARKEL: Sure. Well, I think there's house arrest, there's community service, there are interesting guilt punishments. Now, these are punishments that don't involve public humiliation, but are designed to induce remorse by the offender by educating them in a relevant respect. So an example would be a landlord who keeps his properties below property codes, he might be forced to sleep there for a few nights or for an extended period of time.

I think it's important that we come up with creative alternatives to punishment, in part for the economic reasons and in part because I think we just over rely on them. But I also believe that we don't have to engage in the violation of everyone's dignity for that. And I think when you think about what societies engage in shaming punishments, you know, recently in Fallujah the alcohol vendors were paraded naked around. We think of Mao's denunciation rallies. We think of the Nazi yellow stars.

And I think it's important that we realize that shaming punishments are part of the least liberal societies and they don't really speak to the kind of society we should aspire to become.

COLLINS: Dan Markel, we appreciate your thoughts this morning, as well as Judge Mike Erwin.

Thank you so much to the both of you this morning.

And tomorrow, we want to let you know, in our Getting Off Easy series, Judge Joe Brown, he's the TV justice who rose to fame using alternative sentencing methods in his courtroom. We'll get to him tomorrow.

For now, though, we'll get to Bill Hemmer, standing by in Cleveland once again -- Bill.

HEMMER: Heidi, thanks.

A lot of tough talk last night for 90 minutes. Did it change anything, though, heading into Friday's presidential debate? Back with that in a moment.

Back with Carlos Watson.

Do you agree with Professor Watson?

On this Wednesday edition of AMERICAN MORNING, live in Cleveland on the road, Campaign 2004.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: They were sharp, they were direct and they did not mince words last night. Ninety minutes head to head.

A few of the jabs exchanged between Dick Cheney and John Edwards now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: Your hometown newspaper has taken to calling you Senator Gone. You've got one of the worst attendance records in the United States Senate.

EDWARDS: A long resume does not equal good judgment. I mean we've seen over and over and over the misjudgments made by this administration.

CHENEY: With respect to cost, it wasn't $200 billion. You probably weren't there to vote for that, but $120 billion is, in fact, what has been allocated to Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: It was point and counterpoint last night, which brings us to today's question. Did last night's debate tie the series between the Republicans and the Democrats?

We're asking for your response and your responses with Carlos Watson -- good morning, Professor Watson, in for Jack Cafferty today for us.

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.

HEMMER: Julie writes: "Cheney is the leader, Edwards proved he's way too inexperienced for the second most powerful job in the country. I'll take Cheney any day after last night. And I'm now convinced who I'm voting for. Forget Halliburton, Edwards has his own issues to deal with to throw any stones."

WATSON: Whoo, another tough one from not a participant, but an actual voter. You know what? Edwards missed an opportunity on the experience question, whether or not if you're a heartbeat away from the presidency you can handle it. He should have answered that better.

But I thought overall he did a good job in the debate, offered substantive, thoughtful, citing statistics throughout.

HEMMER: By my count, Halliburton came up about seven times, mentioned by the two men throughout the evening.

WATSON: Yes, and, in fact, once it was raised by a question.

HEMMER: That is true.

WATSON: Remember, Ifill asked him about Iran and sanctions against Iran.

HEMMER: Which takes us to number two.

Betty in Lancaster, Pennsylvania: "If Dick Cheney would not stand up for his daughter, how can we expect him to stand up for a common citizen? He defended Halliburton more vigorously than his own family member."

WATSON: You know, I think that may be a little bit too tough. I mean I think it was a tough issue. Obviously it's a very personal issue and I think he chose to thank Edwards for raising, for saying nice things about the family and let it go.

HEMMER: I'll tell you what. You know what we found in our fingerprint in Columbus, Ohio? One of the biggest spikes for Dick Cheney all night was when he talked about the issue of gay marriage and referred to it within his own family.

WATSON: I think whenever you refer to your family, it humanizes you, especially as a politician.

HEMMER: All right, from Texas, William: "At first blush, I thought the debate was a draw. After thinking about it, I feel Edwards won. Reason? The V.P. was a vast -- has a vast Washington resume, should have at least in part put the senator away with a draw to occur. The V.P. simply did not do that, so I would give the edge to Senator Edwards."

William agrees with you. WATSON: From Texas. Well, you're going to hear that critique a lot. Even those who say it's a draw are going to say wow, if a guy with that limited amount of experience came in against one of the most seasoned policy figures in Washington, boy, you've got to assume that the challenger ultimately won.

HEMMER: All right.

In about 30 minutes, I want you to come back. And when you come back, we're going to go a little bit under the radar and try and pick up on some things that you noticed last night that perhaps we have not seen or even talked about yet.

WATSON: Some real professorial work.

HEMMER: There you go.

WATSON: OK.

That's it.

HEMMER: Thank you, Carlos.

Talk to you later.

WATSON: See you soon.

HEMMER: A break here.

In a moment, it's the morning after. Things are still spinning. "Crossfire's" Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson debate the debate in a moment, as we continue live in Cleveland after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired October 6, 2004 - 08:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your rhetoric, senator, would be a lot more credible if there was a record to back it up. There isn't.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They have a plan for Iraq, too -- more of the same.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It was low key, but it was hard hitting for 90 minutes. Who won the one and only vice presidential debate?

Will the U.S. face a flu epidemic this winter after half the nation's vaccine doses are declared unusable?

And the master of the self-inflicted punch line has died. Rodney Dangerfield remembered and respected on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING.

Live from Cleveland, Ohio, here's Bill Hemmer.

HEMMER: Good morning.

That building is a beautiful and stunning building in daylight, too. That's the Cleveland Museum of Art.

And good morning.

Welcome back to our coverage again, as we roll on now in Campaign 2004.

Four weeks from yesterday is when Americans vote. Now 27 days away from Election 2004. And with the vice presidential debate now at Case Western University behind us, we're now mulling over the winners and the losers from last night.

Republicans and Democrats quickly claimed their guy was the clear winner. The polling suggests, from the ABC News camp and the CBS News camp, a bit of a mixed opinion last night. So we'll get reaction from both campaigns on that today.

Also, Kamber and May are back with us today looking at who had the most to gain last night and whether or not the candidates got their message across. We'll get to that all this hour here.

And from New York, Heidi Collins is back there -- Heidi, good morning again to you back in New York City.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you, once again, Bill.

A little bit warmer in this studio, that's for sure.

I'm feeling lucky this morning.

I want to let you know about other stories we're following today.

Our series on alternative punishments for criminals continues today. This morning, we're looking at the power of shame -- is public humiliation an effective tool in deterring crime? We're going to look at both sides of that discussion.

And Jack is off today, but Carlos Watson will be taking your e- mail this morning. We're going to give you a chance to weigh in on the debate last night.

Meanwhile, now in the news this morning, U.S. forces are stepping up the attacks on suspected militants in the Iraqi city of Fallujah. Multinational forces pummeled a suspected safe house in a major air strike earlier today. Military officials say they launched the strike after reports confirmed leaders of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's terror network were meeting at the house.

Still no clear details about a potential link between Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Saddam Hussein. A new CIA report found no conclusive evidence showing Saddam gave al-Zarqawi refuge in Baghdad prior to 1993. Officials say al-Zarqawi was in Iraq before the war, but it isn't clear that Saddam's regime was aware of it.

Well, this is usually the time of year you're told to get that flu shot. Well, the British Health Department announced yesterday that almost 50 million doses of the U.S. flu vaccine will not be available. I spoke to Dr. Fauci earlier about who should get the flu shot in light of the potential shortage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NATIONAL INSTITUTE ALLERGIES AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Earlier, we had recommended essentially to everyone who is within the categories of possibly getting it to get the vaccine. What we're doing right now is that we're telling people to forestall that so that we can get to the people who really do need it and are of the highest risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: Once again, Dr. Anthony Fauci of the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Diseases this morning.

Meanwhile, Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to have more on what to expect from this year's flu season. That'll be coming up later in this hour.

Well, Ricky Williams trying to get back on the football field. The former Dolphins running back is asking the NFL to clarify his playing status so that he can return to Miami. His agent says Williams was fined more than $8 million for breach of contract when he announced his retirement in July. He has acknowledged testing positive for drug use three times.

Back now to Bill once again in Cleveland.

HEMMER: Hey, Let me get this, Ricky Williams wants a do over, huh?

COLLINS: He wants a do over, that's for sure. Yes, instant replay.

HEMMER: Well, the Dolphins could use him.

COLLINS: Yes.

HEMMER: Thank you, Heidi.

The dust has not yet settled yet from last night's bruising vice presidential debate. Both candidates, though, back on the campaign trail already today and both will be heading to Florida.

Joe Johns is with the Edwards campaign in West Palm Beach and Dana Bash is with Team Cheney in Tallahassee.

We start this hour with Joe -- good morning, there.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

It's also warmer here than it is in Cleveland. Edwards, of course, is coming here to Palm Beach for a noon rally in Palm Beach. The campaign coming off of a tense and well argued debate that was almost bitter at times. Edwards answering that all important question about his experience compared to Dick Cheney, with a broad side attack on the administration's policies and record.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARDS: The vice president and president like to talk about their experience on the campaign trail. Millions of people have lost their jobs. Millions have fallen into poverty. And family incomes are down, while the cost of everything is going up. Medical costs up the highest they've ever been over the last four years. We have this mess in Iraq. Mr. Vice President, I don't think the country can take four more years of this kind of experience.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: After the debate, Edwards appeared at a late night rally in Cleveland. He is wasting no time getting back to the campaign trail, headed here to Florida, where the race is tight. The campaign is hoping to make up for lost time in Florida, a state, of course, that has been ravaged by four hurricanes in recent weeks.

Bill -- back to you.

HEMMER: Joe, thanks for that.

Let's stay in Florida with Dana Bash -- Dana, good morning there in Tallahassee.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Bill.

You know, the Bush-Cheney team is breathing a sigh of relief this morning, clearly feeling a lot better now than they did last week, after the president's debate. And, of course, you just heard Joe say that Senator Edwards feels that he did well defending himself on experience, while the vice president's team thinks that that was a major goal that he hit, talking about the experience issue, saying, Cheney saying point blank that Senator Edwards has a record that is not very distinguished and that the Democratic ticket isn't prepared to deal with state sponsored terrorism.

Now, the Republicans, though, think perhaps he was most effective on the Iraq issue, that if Senators Kerry and Edwards shifted with the political winds, he said, during the Democratic primary, do they really have what it takes to lead?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: So they, in effect, decided they would cast an anti-war vote and they voted against the troops. Now, if they couldn't stand up to the pressures that Howard Dean represented, how can we expect them to stand up to al Qaeda?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, but right out of the box, the vice president was on the defensive on the Iraq issue. He, of course, is the primary defender of a link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda. That is an issue that has been out there recently in the news, questions even from the president's own team.

Now, the president today is -- does see, his team does see the fact that since his debate, his numbers have gone down on Iraq. He has shifted his strategy today. He is not, no longer going to talk about medical liability in Pennsylvania. He is going to give, instead, a significant speech on Iraq. That is something that his campaign obviously thinks is important, because they say it's important to sharpen his attacks on John Kerry.

Democrats, of course, say that he is simply trying to make up for a debate that he had against John Kerry and they say he didn't do very well -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Dana, thanks.

The focus on Florida with Joe Johns and Dana Bash.

Thanks to you both for that.

And Dana mentioned the speech, you can see it later today, in two hours, in fact, 10:00 a.m. Eastern time here on CNN. We will have that for you in the State of Pennsylvania.

In the meantime, though, we want to bring in Kamber and May this morning.

From the left, Democratic strategist Victor Kamber is with us back in D.C. And also from the right, former RNC Communications Director Cliff May. We call it Kamber-May.

And gentlemen, I bid you welcome here.

CLIFFORD

MAY, FEDERATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Good morning.

VICTOR KAMBER, THE KAMBER GROUP: Good morning.

HEMMER: And Cliff, I want to start with you first and then we'll go back and forth on this.

What point do you believe Dick Cheney made the best last night?

MAY: I think the most important point he made was for the first time to put Kerry's and Edwards' record on the table as a point of debate. That didn't get done in the previous debate, it didn't get done in the Democratic national convention. He pointed out that John Kerry, for example, had voted against the first Gulf War. He pointed out that John Kerry voted against the various cold war policies of Ronald Reagan.

This has not been a subject of discussion up to now. If Bush and Cheney are clever, it will be over the days ahead.

HEMMER: All right, Victor, respond to that.

Did John Edwards defend that record effectively?

KAMBER: Oh, I don't think there's any question about it and I thought you were going to ask me the same question you asked Cliff.

HEMMER: I will in a moment. But I first wanted to get your response to this.

KAMBER: No, I thought John Edwards was very effective. What he said, basically, was we voted for the authorization for the president based on the information we had. We had different information than the president of the United States. Once we realized that this administration, this president, this vice president had no plan to get out, had no ability to continue this war in a proper way, we started questioning and voting against.

MAY: But Vic, I'm not talking about that...

KAMBER: And he never...

MAY: I'm talking about his, the record in the Senate, going back, for example, to 1990, 1991, when Senator Kerry was against getting Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait at a time when Saddam Hussein was building nuclear weapons and had a chance to swallow up all of Kuwait's oil wealth.

KAMBER: John Kerry...

MAY: John Kerry voted against that.

KAMBER: As we know...

MAY: Al Gore voted for that, you know?

KAMBER: As we also know, that George Bush's father was the one that stopped going there. I mean it's -- we had a president of the United States at that point that called an end to the war...

MAY: But he would...

KAMBER: ... not going into Kuwait, not going into Baghdad to get Saddam Hussein. I mean we had two...

MAY: No. But President...

KAMBER: We had two...

MAY: The first President Bush forced Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait and Kerry was against that. I've been surprised that hasn't been more of an issue, because that was clearly a mistake in judgment, I think, and I think maybe you think, on Kerry's part.

HEMMER: All right, hang on, Cliff.

Victor, give a response here then I want to...

KAMBER: Well, I mean, you know...

HEMMER: Victor, give a response then I want to kick it around.

KAMBER: I do not think -- well, I do not think it's a major issue to look back 12 years and talk about a vote, one vote out of thousands. And, again, I don't have the background to know what was the discussion, what was the debate at the time, the fact that Gore voted for something, Kerry voted for something else. What I do know is the commitment of John Kerry, John Edwards, their strength. And I'm not worried about...

MAY: OK...

KAMBER: And I'm not only not worried, I'm very comfortable with their leadership in terms of terrorism and in terms of protecting this country.

HEMMER: Victor, what point do you believe Senator Edwards made the most effective, the best last night?

KAMBER: Well, I think exactly the same as Cliff when he started, he pointed out the record of this administration. He dealt with their record both foreign policy and domestic policy. He, you know, and we can cite it, all the -- I mean the increase in Medicare, the increase -- the failure of education, the whole domestic problems and then the war itself, where we went into war without a plan to succeed.

The first question that was asked by Gwen Ifill was never answered, which was the Bremer question. Mr. Bremer, their potential secretary of state in the future, or certainly a secretary of defense, the close friend of George Bush's, recently has come out, if it's true, and said that, you know, we don't have enough troops or we didn't have enough troops and we never had a plan. That was the first question asked by Gwen Ifill and it was never answered by Dick Cheney.

MAY: If just making...

HEMMER: Cliff, go ahead.

MAY: If just making criticisms could make you president, Vic and I would be running right now. The problem for Kerry and for Edwards is that they have to show not only that mistakes have been made -- mistakes are made in every war -- they have to show that they have the judgment and they have the experience necessary to lead the United States through this very perilous period. I'm not sure that's what happened.

Look, I think both guys did good. I think Gwen Ifill did great as the moderator, by the way, better than any moderator we've seen recently. She was very fair and very tough on both sides. But I -- and I think both were kind of playing against type. You had John Edwards trying to show that he could be tough and I think you had Dick Cheney kind of showing his softer side and not going for the jugular the way he might have.

I don't think Edwards answered well the question about his own experience. He went on the attack but what he couldn't say is look, here's what I've done. Don't forget, neither Edwards nor Kerry has ever run a state or a company or any organization larger than a campaign, and that, too, I think, is an issue that may come up.

So I...

KAMBER: To...

MAY: Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

KAMBER: Well, two things. One, John Edwards, sitting in that chair, had more experience than George Bush did when he ran for president four years ago. And, two, when you talk about records and careers...

MAY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). KAMBER: When you talk about records and careers, the one thing that John Kerry -- that John Edwards pointed out was Dick Cheney's record and career, a man when he did vote, voted against Martin Luther King, against Nelson Mandela, against, you name the kinds of programs that this country wanted, Dick Cheney was against it.

HEMMER: Gentlemen, I wish we had 90 minutes. We don't.

But thanks for checking in with us today.

And we all wait to see what happens now in debate number two, the top of the ticket, on Friday night in St. Louis.

Kamber and May here with us again.

Much more of this debate next hour.

Bill Schneider, a very interesting focus in D.C., a fact check about what was spoken about last night. We'll check in with Bill in the 9:00 a.m. hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Also, as I mentioned earlier today, the second debate Friday night. Our live coverage starts at 7:00 Eastern on Friday evening. That debate again in St. Louis begins at 9:00 Eastern time for 90 minutes yet again.

Back to New York again and Heidi with more there -- Heidi.

COLLINS: OK, Bill, thanks.

We're going to check on the weather now.

Chad Myers once again at the CNN Center with the very latest -- good morning, Chad.

I think, from what you said last time, Las Vegas, the warm place to be kind of in the entire country.

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Ninety today, yes. Not bad out there. Lots of sunshine.

(WEATHER REPORT)

COLLINS: Still to come now, shaming criminals instead of sending them to jail -- does it work? Our series, Getting Off Easy continues in a moment.

And America will not have over half of its flu vaccine supply this year. What does this mean for your family's flu shots? Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to be talking about that in a moment.

And the respect is flowing this morning for the man who joked he never got any, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING, live from New York and on the road in Cleveland.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COLLINS: Nice shot this morning of the New York City skyline. You probably recognize it, I would imagine, by now.

We want to get now to our series, Getting Off Easy, alternative ideas for punishing criminals.

Today, shaming them by publicizing their crimes. But do these types of punishments work or do they lead to more problems?

In Baton Rouge, Louisiana this morning, Judge Michael Erwin, who says fear of humiliation is an effective deterrent.

Judge, good morning to you.

JUDGE MICHAEL ERWIN, EAST BATON ROUGE, LOUISIANA: Good morning.

COLLINS: And here in the studio, criminal defense attorney Dan Markel, who disagrees with that.

And, Dan, good morning to you, as well.

DAN MARKEL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good morning, Heidi.

COLLINS: Judge Erwin, we want to begin with you. You have sentenced people to stand in front of stores with a sign saying things like, "I'm A Thief," and you've even told some offenders to take pictures of themselves and give them to security guards and tell them don't let me shop in your store, don't let me come in.

What happened to the old form of punishment, if you will, that says if you do the crime, you do the time?

ERWIN: Well, usually when I have done that, it's people who are second or third offenders for misdemeanor shoplifting and maybe doing the time or going to the theft deterrent classes that we have haven't worked. So I've tried to come up with something else that might actually deter them.

COLLINS: So this is mostly, as you say, for repeat offenders then?

ERWIN: Yes, ma'am.

COLLINS: All right, Dan Markel, what's wrong with shaming as a form of punishment? I want to try to be a little bit more creative here.

MARKEL: Right. Well, I think it's important that we think of alternatives to incarceration, in part because we have an over reliance on prisons as our orthodox method of punishment. And I commend Judge Erwin for coming up with some of these alternatives. However, I would disagree that shaming, public shaming and humiliation is appropriate. I believe that the constitution, for one, prohibits it as a matter of violating the dignity of every person and every citizen. And I also think that they're likely to be counter- productive. Increasingly people who wear the, you know, who have to wear these T-shirts, they're going to become badges of honor among the bling bling crowd. People are going to saying like oh, yes, you know, if Britney Spears can wear a T-shirt that says "I Used To Be A Virgin," then people are going to be pretty excited to wear equally, you know, a T-shirt that says, "Oh, Yes, I Steal Mail," you know? People aren't going to really take it seriously.

COLLINS: Judge Erwin, is that part of the criticism then, I mean that possibly these types of punishments could trigger more anger and not really reform?

ERWIN: It's been my experience that it helps the people and I've certainly gotten a lot of feedback from the community, from the people who own the stores where these people have been sent and tell me that they think it's a good idea and that it's working.

COLLINS: So do you think, then, that because people are preferring these punishments instead of spending time in prison, because it could be argued that we're saving spaces, sending people to prison by doing this type of thing, that they are more welcoming and more wanting to turn their lives around.

ERWIN: That's a possibility. But generally I look at it as something that might also effect the rest of the community. And when they see things like that happening, that somebody is being humiliated, they have to go stand in front of the store with a sign, they might say to themselves, boy, I sure hope I never have to do that and have an effect on them to keep them from perhaps going down the criminal path.

COLLINS: Mr. Markel, you say still no way, not the best way to do this.

But then give me an idea of what some alternative punishments could be, some solutions that might work.

MARKEL: Sure. Well, I think there's house arrest, there's community service, there are interesting guilt punishments. Now, these are punishments that don't involve public humiliation, but are designed to induce remorse by the offender by educating them in a relevant respect. So an example would be a landlord who keeps his properties below property codes, he might be forced to sleep there for a few nights or for an extended period of time.

I think it's important that we come up with creative alternatives to punishment, in part for the economic reasons and in part because I think we just over rely on them. But I also believe that we don't have to engage in the violation of everyone's dignity for that. And I think when you think about what societies engage in shaming punishments, you know, recently in Fallujah the alcohol vendors were paraded naked around. We think of Mao's denunciation rallies. We think of the Nazi yellow stars.

And I think it's important that we realize that shaming punishments are part of the least liberal societies and they don't really speak to the kind of society we should aspire to become.

COLLINS: Dan Markel, we appreciate your thoughts this morning, as well as Judge Mike Erwin.

Thank you so much to the both of you this morning.

And tomorrow, we want to let you know, in our Getting Off Easy series, Judge Joe Brown, he's the TV justice who rose to fame using alternative sentencing methods in his courtroom. We'll get to him tomorrow.

For now, though, we'll get to Bill Hemmer, standing by in Cleveland once again -- Bill.

HEMMER: Heidi, thanks.

A lot of tough talk last night for 90 minutes. Did it change anything, though, heading into Friday's presidential debate? Back with that in a moment.

Back with Carlos Watson.

Do you agree with Professor Watson?

On this Wednesday edition of AMERICAN MORNING, live in Cleveland on the road, Campaign 2004.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: They were sharp, they were direct and they did not mince words last night. Ninety minutes head to head.

A few of the jabs exchanged between Dick Cheney and John Edwards now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHENEY: Your hometown newspaper has taken to calling you Senator Gone. You've got one of the worst attendance records in the United States Senate.

EDWARDS: A long resume does not equal good judgment. I mean we've seen over and over and over the misjudgments made by this administration.

CHENEY: With respect to cost, it wasn't $200 billion. You probably weren't there to vote for that, but $120 billion is, in fact, what has been allocated to Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: It was point and counterpoint last night, which brings us to today's question. Did last night's debate tie the series between the Republicans and the Democrats?

We're asking for your response and your responses with Carlos Watson -- good morning, Professor Watson, in for Jack Cafferty today for us.

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good to see you.

HEMMER: Julie writes: "Cheney is the leader, Edwards proved he's way too inexperienced for the second most powerful job in the country. I'll take Cheney any day after last night. And I'm now convinced who I'm voting for. Forget Halliburton, Edwards has his own issues to deal with to throw any stones."

WATSON: Whoo, another tough one from not a participant, but an actual voter. You know what? Edwards missed an opportunity on the experience question, whether or not if you're a heartbeat away from the presidency you can handle it. He should have answered that better.

But I thought overall he did a good job in the debate, offered substantive, thoughtful, citing statistics throughout.

HEMMER: By my count, Halliburton came up about seven times, mentioned by the two men throughout the evening.

WATSON: Yes, and, in fact, once it was raised by a question.

HEMMER: That is true.

WATSON: Remember, Ifill asked him about Iran and sanctions against Iran.

HEMMER: Which takes us to number two.

Betty in Lancaster, Pennsylvania: "If Dick Cheney would not stand up for his daughter, how can we expect him to stand up for a common citizen? He defended Halliburton more vigorously than his own family member."

WATSON: You know, I think that may be a little bit too tough. I mean I think it was a tough issue. Obviously it's a very personal issue and I think he chose to thank Edwards for raising, for saying nice things about the family and let it go.

HEMMER: I'll tell you what. You know what we found in our fingerprint in Columbus, Ohio? One of the biggest spikes for Dick Cheney all night was when he talked about the issue of gay marriage and referred to it within his own family.

WATSON: I think whenever you refer to your family, it humanizes you, especially as a politician.

HEMMER: All right, from Texas, William: "At first blush, I thought the debate was a draw. After thinking about it, I feel Edwards won. Reason? The V.P. was a vast -- has a vast Washington resume, should have at least in part put the senator away with a draw to occur. The V.P. simply did not do that, so I would give the edge to Senator Edwards."

William agrees with you. WATSON: From Texas. Well, you're going to hear that critique a lot. Even those who say it's a draw are going to say wow, if a guy with that limited amount of experience came in against one of the most seasoned policy figures in Washington, boy, you've got to assume that the challenger ultimately won.

HEMMER: All right.

In about 30 minutes, I want you to come back. And when you come back, we're going to go a little bit under the radar and try and pick up on some things that you noticed last night that perhaps we have not seen or even talked about yet.

WATSON: Some real professorial work.

HEMMER: There you go.

WATSON: OK.

That's it.

HEMMER: Thank you, Carlos.

Talk to you later.

WATSON: See you soon.

HEMMER: A break here.

In a moment, it's the morning after. Things are still spinning. "Crossfire's" Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson debate the debate in a moment, as we continue live in Cleveland after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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