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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush, Kerry Prepare for Final Debate; U.S. Invests in Mexico's Health Care
Aired October 13, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry deliver their final presidential presentations just three hours from now. We'll have a live report from Tempe, Arizona.
We'll also have a real debate between representatives of both campaigns, and our debate allows for rebuttal, cross questions and full freedom of expression.
On November 2, will your vote count? Dramatic and troubling evidence tonight about the breakdown in the integrity of our national voting system.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't believe that somebody would go around, have you fill out a voter registration and then rip it up and throw it in the garbage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, our special report, Democracy at Risk.
A deadly day for American troops in Iraq. Six American soldiers have been killed. We'll have a report from Baghdad.
And the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country is bringing with it a health-care crisis, and, incredibly, the United States government is investing millions of dollars in Mexico's health- care system.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS THOMSON, SECRETARY, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: This is an investment for the health care of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, our special report from Nogales, Mexico.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, October 13. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Three hours from now, President Bush and Senator Kerry will meet one another in the final so-called debate of this campaign. Tonight's presidential presentations will focus on domestic issues -- the economy, health care, education, perhaps even immigration. The candidates hope the presentations will give them a decisive boost in the polls, just less than three weeks before the election.
John King is covering the president's campaign, Candy Crowley is covering the Kerry campaign. Both, of course, tonight are in Tempe, Arizona.
To John King now -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the president enters tonight's final debate with two major goals. One is to regain lost momentum, and the other, to convince the American people that his opponent, Democrat John Kerry, is a liberal, who is big on spending, big on higher taxes, out of step with the mainstream, will be the president's case tonight.
Hard to overstate the burden on the president tonight. He is widely perceived and the polls reflect the American people believe he lost the first two debates to Senator Kerry. He entered the debate series with a small, but consistent lead of 5 points or 6 points or so in the national polls. That has now evaporated into a dead heat.
And we're beginning to see over the past 24 to 48 hours several of the states Al Gore won 2000 that President Bush had been slightly ahead or at least contesting very firmly are beginning to shift John Kerry's way. So the president enters the debate tonight, hoping to shift the tide of this election at the moment.
He will do so, aides say, by saying that whether the issue is the economy or taxes or health care that his opponent's moderate rhetoric now does not match up with the 20-year Senate record that President Bush will say tonight proves Senator Kerry is a liberal out of the mainstream.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEW DOWD, BUSH-CHENEY '04: John Kerry has fought medical liability reform. He believes his government program is a $1.5 trillion government program with doctors having very limited control and patients losing access to their doctors, and he believes in raising taxes which he's already stated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, as Mr. Bush makes his case tonight, even many of his own aides concede there's been so much personal sniping between these two candidates the president has been forced in the first two debates to spend so much time his defending policies in the war on terrorism, especially the war in Iraq, that he has not laid out much of his own specific plans for a second term, especially on these domestic issues on stage tonight.
Many of those who know politics well, including the veteran presidential adviser David Gergen, say slapping the liberal label on Kerry won't be enough. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Charging someone as being a liberal has some resonance, but not the electricity of the past. But in and of itself, it's not enough to win a debate. It's not enough to win an election. The president has to be putting forward very aggressively his own policies and plans and why they will work. He has to persuade people that the path we're now on is a good path.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, in reflection, the president knows full well the stakes for him tonight. The White House had been saying for days that his practice sessions for this debate were only informal, but word came today that, in fact, the president has been cramming on Air Force One, cramming in his limousine rides and motorcades to major events, two full practice debate sessions in the past 24 hours here in Arizona.
Lou, the president says he's relaxed. He predicts tonight will be fun, and he says he's in great spirits. He also, of course, carries a heavy burden after the first two debates -- Lou.
DOBBS: As you say, John, what is the staff -- the White House staff staff, the campaign staff of President Bush saying about these polls, those which had given him, as you reported, a relatively significant lead have now narrowed to -- or, in point of fact, given John Kerry the lead? How are they reacting to that?
KING: They say two things. One, that they always predicted a close race, that Senator Kerry has handled himself quite well, the Bush team concedes, in the first two debates and that some soft Democrats have come home to the Kerry campaign.
Some Bush advisers also concede that his debate performances, especially the first debate performance, lowered the intensity of the Republican vote. They say that has come back a bit after the spirited performance the president turned in in debate number two.
They say he needs to at least equal that, perhaps even do better tonight.
DOBBS: John, thank you.
Let's turn now to Candy Crowley for a report on the mood of the Kerry camp and the preparation of the senator for tonight's presentations -- Candy.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: In a word -- and the word comes from Senator Kerry -- he feels great. They go into this debate, they believe, with gravity on their side. That is, they believe the president needs to pick up momentum, and all Kerry has to do is keep it going.
They want to do two things tonight, and it very much reflects their strategy for the past two debates, and that is, A, hold the president accountable for his own record, and, B, keep positive. So it is sort of the one-two punch to keep reminding voters out there of how they see the Bush record and then coming in and saying but here's what I would do that's different.
As for the liberal label, they say they're not afraid of that, that people don't look at labels anymore, that John Kerry has a number of things he can point to, including his vote for a zero deficit, one of the few Democrats who did vote for a deficit reduction. So they want to put that out there.
The remarks from the Treasury secretary today about the deficits -- or about the surplus being a myth, about job loss being a myth, you will hear that tonight, Lou, for sure.
DOBBS: And the senator's record in the U.S. Senate for 19 years -- does the staff consider that to be a considerable vulnerability to the Bush-Cheney attack?
CROWLEY: They understand the attack. They say, look, these guys are pretty good at flagging what they're going to go after, and I think you saw sort of the mini debate in St. Louis, where they did get into some of that and where John Kerry said the labels don't mean anything, here's what I've done that are conservative.
And what they found Lou, is that, in fact, when they look at the internals in those polls where they're doing well with that sort of thing is with independents and swing voters and with the undecideds, so they're quite happy to take that debate on.
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much.
Candy Crowley from Tempe, Arizona.
Both Candy Crowley, John King will be covering the debate throughout the evening here on CNN.
Troubling new concerns tonight about the integrity of our national voting system. There are now reports of voting problems in Nevada, Colorado and Ohio, and there are new concerns about electronic voting in Florida as well.
Dan Lothian has our special report, Democracy at Risk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): As the clock winds down in the race for the White House, there's growing concern over what the accuracy will be of the final count.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: David thinks he's registered to vote.
LOTHIAN: In Nevada, Eric Russell (ph), a former part-time worker for the Republican-backed group Voter's Outreach of America, alleges supervisors destroyed forms filled out by Democrats, through out registration receipts and put pressure on workers to only sign up Republicans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you brought in Democrats, you weren't getting paid. I mean, our -- bottom line.
LOTHIAN: He says he kept discarded paperwork as evidence. A Republican consultant with ties to the group says Russell is a disgruntled ex-employee trying to get even. In a statement, the Republican National Committee said, "Anyone who engages in fraudulent voter registration activities should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."
In Colorado, CNN affiliate KUSA found signs of fraud on registration forms, bogus names, Social Security numbers and dates of birth, and forged signatures.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm 100 percent that this is not her signature.
LOTHIAN: They spoke with this woman who claims she not only registered to vote 25 times, but also signed up three of her friends 40 times, all to help her boyfriend who was making $2 for every application, working for Acorn, a group aligned with the Democratic Party.
KIM CASON, GIRLFRIEND: You know, I was just helping the people out downtown. You know, everybody needs an extra dollar here and now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did have incidents where there were people who were attempting to defraud us.
LOTHIAN: And across the country in key battleground states like Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, some worry new voting technology may result in mistakes and fraud, and where there is no paper trail, an impossible task to recount.
Already in Florida, a problem. Power failure during Hurricane Jeanne may have damaged computer equipment causing a server to crash. A test of Palm Beach County's electronic voting system had to be postponed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: All of these concerns have led to lawsuits and investigations. Various groups and officials are working very hard to lower the odds of irregularities with less than three weeks to go -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dan, a troubling report. We thank you.
Dan Lothian reporting from Boston.
DOBBS: New concerns tonight about Pennsylvania's voting system as well. A Pennsylvania judge has ruled that independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader should be taken off that state's ballot. The judge said there are literally thousands of fake signatures in the nominating petitions for Nader. The Nader campaign said that it will appeal the judge's ruling.
Turning to Iraq, insurgents today killed six more American troops. Two were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a military convoy in Mosul, four other American soldiers were killed in Baghdad. Radical Islamist terrorists also targeted Iraqi intelligence officers.
Brent Sadler has our report from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The Fallujah-based terror group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi claims more victims: two Iraqi men said to be intelligence officers, both decapitated, their murders posted on an Islamic Web site, claimed by the same brand of killers who beheaded British hostage Kenneth Bigly last week, the same group that says its followers have carried out many of the deadliest car bomb attacks in Baghdad, including a recent blast that killed 34 children.
For weeks, Zarqawi's terror network in Fallujah has been targeted by U.S. air strikes. He's America's number one enemy in Iraq, with a $25 million reward for anyone who turns him in. Now, it seems, there's a new incentive, a blunt ultimatum from the interim government poised to strike with U.S.-backed ground troops.
AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through interpreter): If they don't hand us Zarqawi and his people in Fallujah, we will also conduct operations in Fallujah. We will spare no effort to protect the Iraqi people.
SADLER: Some local leaders in Fallujah are trying to negotiate the city out of a much-feared ground attack, one that could turn out to be even more intense and deadlier than a three-week U.S. Marines offensive in April that left hundreds of Iraqis dead.
(on camera): U.S. and Iraqi authorities are aiming to drive a wedge between Zarqawi extremists and home-grown nationalist insurgents, using air power to hit terror targets and dialogue to win over some insurgent leaders.
(voice-over): But the air strikes and turmoil have scattered large numbers of Fallujah's terrified population, and, with elections scheduled in three months, time is running out.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next here, border states, because of the invasion of illegal aliens, now face a massive health-care crisis. Astonishingly, the U.S. government is investing millions of dollars in Mexico's health-care system. We'll have that special exclusive report for you.
A U.S. senator faces a barrage of criticism tonight after he declares a terrorist attack against Capitol Hill could be imminent. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: I have closed my office in the Russell Senate Office Building under after the upcoming election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have that report next and hear more from the senator.
And a critical shortage of flu shots in this country has led to massive price gouging for flu vaccine. We'll have that story and a great deal more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota tonight is under fire from his colleagues after announcing that he would close his Capitol Hill office because of his concerns and fears of a terrorist attack. Senator Dayton last night said his office would be closed until after the election out of what he called, quote, "extreme, but necessary caution." The Minnesota Democrat cites a top-secret briefing on national security for his surprising warning and decision.
The senator spoke a few moments ago about his decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAYTON: I wouldn't advise anyone to visit Capitol Hill who wasn't required to do so between now and the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: No other members of Congress have announced plans to close down their offices. In fact, Washington, D.C., Mayor Anthony Williams today called Dayton's decision a very strange aberration. Mayor Williams says Washington is a safe city. New York Congressman Peter King called Senator Dayton paranoid.
In Broken Borders here, we've documented the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country, primarily from Mexico. Now millions of your tax dollars are being spent to provide health care to Mexican citizens not in this country, but in Mexico itself.
U.S. and Mexican health officials are meeting this week on both sides of the Arizona border. You will likely be astonished at just how much the United States is spending and how little the United States is receiving in return for its investment in Mexico.
Casey Wian reports from Nogales, Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During a visit to a Mexican hospital, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson played to the office with shaky Spanish... THOMPSON: Buenos tardes, damaci, caviaros.
WIAN: ... compliments...
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: ... the most beautiful weather in the world, I'll tell you.
WIAN: ... and U.S. taxpayer money.
THOMPSON: As a demonstration of our friendship and support for this triage and stabilization unit, we are going to be funding the purchase of a CT scanner.
WIAN: Thompson's visit was part of the U.S./Mexico Border Health Commission's Binational Health Week. The conference brought politicians and health officials from both countries together on both sides of the border in Nogales, Arizona, and Nogales, Mexico. It included health fairs, visits to medical facilities and promises of financial assistance, nearly all from the United States.
In Fiscal 2004, Thompson's department gave the commission $5.5 million to monitor infectious diseases. The U.S. Congress gave the group another $4 million. Together, that's 10 times Mexico's contribution of less than a million dollars.
THOMPSON: This is really an investment to make sure that somebody's that's infected doesn't come into the United States, carries that disease into the United States. Better to find out right now and better to take care of it at the border. This is an investment for the health care of America.
WIAN: Border hospitals are overwhelmed by rising rates of tuberculosis, diabetes and trauma. If the region was its own state, it would rank last in access to health care and near the bottom in deaths from infectious diseases.
(on camera): Out-of-control immigration is the main reason U.S. border communities face a health-care crisis, yet instead of advocating for tighter border controls, many of the conference participants spoke as if this border either doesn't or shouldn't exist, at least as far as health care is concerned.
JULIO FRENK MORA, MEXICAN HEALTH SECRETARY: The migration that continues to happen day in and day out is -- it's part of what makes human -- the human race what it is.
WIAN (voice-over): But no talk of controlling the spread of disease by controlling the border.
Casey Wian, CNN, Nogales, Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Should U.S. taxpayer dollars be spent to provide health care to Mexican citizens? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
More disturbing news tonight about health care in this country. This time, concerns about widespread price gouging for flu vaccine. The allegations of price gougings come after officials declared half of this country's planned vaccine supply is contaminated.
A new survey shows vendors are charging hospitals -- or at least trying to -- charging them up to 10 times the original market price for the vaccine. The director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention calls the price gouging reprehensible and immoral.
Meanwhile, the Defense Department says it will defer mandatory flu vaccinations for some members of the U.S. military in order to ease the shortage. Troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Persian Gulf and South Korea will receive the vaccine first, along with those in critical jobs in the United States.
Coming up, Running on Empty. Rising gasoline prices are putting the squeeze on middle-class families and the candidates for the presidency. We'll have that story.
And tonight, a real debate. In our Face Off, a debate on energy prices, jobs, health care, immigration, other critical issues facing this country. We hope we'll hear the same issues tonight from the presidential candidates themselves. Bush-Cheney policy director Tim Adams, Kerry-Edwards policy director Sarah Bianchi will be here. They square off ahead of tonight's so-called presidential debate.
And a scathing indictment of the American health-care industry. "TIME" magazine investigative reports Donald Barlett and James Steele will be here to talk about their new book, an alarming book on the state of health care in this country, "Critical Condition." The good news is they have some innovative solutions.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush and Senator Kerry square off tonight against a backdrop of rising oil prices. The presidential candidates have traded election year barbs and attacks, and there is a considerable question about the impact of higher energy prices on the direction of the vote this year, but there is one central question: Is it possible for either candidate as president to really influence the direction of the price of oil? Louise Schiavone reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sticker shock at the gas pump. It's an unwelcome turn of events, especially to a nation of consumers historically accustomed to ample supplies of cheap energy, supplies which have become increasingly tight.
JULIAN DARLEY, POST CARBON INSTITUTE: We've had some of the world's lousiest discoveries of oil in the last few years, and this is putting us in a real bind. So does the average voters understand the geological thrust of this? I really doubt it.
SCHIAVONE: But Americans are noticing. Nearly 10 times as many consumers are concerned about rising energy prices now than were worried at the beginning of this year, according to the University of Michigan Consumer Confidence Survey. Republicans are talking about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've got to get groceries. I'm going to be late.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... John Kerry and the liberals in Congress have voted to raise gas taxes 10 times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten times? The gas prices are high enough already.
SCHIAVONE: Democrats have made a point of it, too.
ANNOUNCER: The powerful and well connected get what they want from George Bush and Republicans in Congress. Drug companies get a $139 billion bail-out. Drug prices skyrocket. CEOs get big corporate tax breaks for shipping our jobs overseas. The Saudi royal family gets special favors. Gas prices soar.
SCHIAVONE: Analysts say neither candidate is being fair.
LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Both men's charges are ridiculous. Neither candidate, either a United States senator from Massachusetts or even the incumbent president of the United States, controls the price of gasoline.
SCHIAVONE: The only answers to the energy problem are producing more or using less, but neither Bush nor Kerry is selling sacrifice on the campaign trail. The last president who did, Jimmy Carter, was trounced by Ronald Reagan.
Louise Schiavone, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at your thoughts.
Billy Earl Bair in Boise, Idaho, "Is American pride dead. The United States at one time led the world in nearly every area. We did this by taking pride in our products and services. We sold a good product for a good price and stood behind the work. Americans need to regain the pride our greedy business leaders have sold down the river."
And Mfuz (ph) in Gaithersburg, Maryland, "I'm soon to be joining the many ranks of Americans who are losing their jobs due to outsourcing. Since my job is being lost, I will no longer have health insurance. No one seems to care about us hardworking Americans who are losing their jobs. Congress is doing nothing to stop the outsourcing. Is our country for sale?" And Howard in Corpus Christi, Texas, "Trade deficits, illegal aliens, so-called free trade agreements -- those issues will never be brought up by either candidate for president. Why? The multinational corporations that own both parties will not allow it to happen."
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Send us your name and address. Each of you whose e-mail is read on this broadcast receives a free copy of my new book, "Exporting America."
Coming up next, two down, one to go. In just a little over two hours, the final presidential presentation. We'll have a real debate here, though. The policy directors from both the Bush and Kerry campaigns in tonight's Face Off.
Also ahead, Prognosis "Critical Condition," the authors of a compelling new book on national health care will be here to talk about the problems and the solutions.
And reforming health care is one of this physician's top priorities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELISSA BROWN, RUNNING FOR CONGRESS: We had a man on the moon in 10 years, and we haven't stopped breast cancer yet or prostate cancer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Melissa Brown is hoping her experience in the operating room as both a nurse and a doctor will help her in her fight to win the election to Congress. Her story and much more still ahead.
And CNN's live coverage of the third and final presidential presentation in Tempe, Arizona. It begins tonight in less than an hour, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: The presidential candidates tonight set for square off. The focus on domestic issues tonight will likely bring out some of the starkest contrasts between the two men. The differences we hope are at the center of tonight 'debate in our "Face-off."
Joining me now, Sarah Bianchi, she is policy director for the Kerry/Edwards campaign.
And Tim Adams, he's the policy director for the Bush/Cheney campaign.
Both joining us from Tempe, Arizona. Good to have you both here. Let me begin, if I may, with two issues we're not hearing a lot about from your respectively candidates in this campaign and critically important issues.
Is there really a dime's worth of difference between your candidates on the issue of immigration?
Let me start with you, if I may, Tim.
TIM ADAMS, POLICY DIRECTOR, BUSH/CHENEY: Well, the president laid out a plan earlier this year, in January, which would bring the immigrants who are working in the United States out of the shadows into the marketplace, so that we can identify them and document them. I think it's a very progressed approach to undocumented workers in this country. We think there somewhere between 10 or 14 million undocumented workers in this country today.
DOBBS: Undocumented workers or illegal aliens, Tim?
ADAMS: Well, you pick your phrase, but I think the...
DOBBS: They're here illegally. They're here illegally. They're not all workers. And when you say "undocumented," I don't know what that means.
ADAMS: It's an appropriate phrase, but if you'd like to call them illegal aliens, go right ahead, Lou.
DOBBS: And Sarah, your candidate. How does Senator Kerry differ from President Bush on this issue?
SARAH BIANCHI, POLICY DIRECTOR, KERRY/EDWARDS: Well, first of all, one the problem is that President Bush stopped talks with Vicente Fox of Mexico. And really is going to take working together to address this issue. Also, the president's plan is very different in that it allows employers to have all of the control. John Kerry has promised to outline a comprehensive immigration plan in his first 100 days in office, and that includes allowing folks who have been here for some time to earn legalization. And his plan also includes more border security, which as many organizations have reported, our borders have become more porous under this president.
DOBBS: Three million aliens according to "Time" magazine will cross our border this year. Will Senator Kerry, Sarah, make certain that our border is absolutely under control?
BIANCHI: He has outlined a plan to improve border security, and that includes better technology, more patrol at the borders, we need to do more on homeland security. But unfortunately this president has squandered so many resources on tax cuts for the wealthy, that we haven't made the investment in homeland security that we need to.
DOBBS: Looking for further distinctions, Tim, if I may, President Bush has not made border security a top priority. It could not be otherwise if he's willing to accept the idea that 3 million aliens can cross our borders this year. ADAMS: Lou, that's absolutely not true, it is a priority. This president has tripled the amount of money we spent on homeland security. We've spent more money on border patrols both on the southern and northern borders.
Susan talked about technology, we're already using technology. On John Kerry's homeland security agenda, we are already doing 31 of the 33 things that he is proposing, so what he proposes to do, we're already doing. We welcome him to the debate. I wish he decided to talk about this issue before he decided to run for president, despite the fact that he's been in the Senator for 20 years. It's another park of his unremarkable record in the United States Senate.
BIANCHI: John Kerry, has written books on this issue and he has talked about this issue. And Republicans and Democrats alike, from Senator Warren Rudman to Senator McCain to many others, have faulted the Bush administration for not making our homeland security investment a priority. The numbers that they'll give you tripling is not true. It counts existing money. We need a president who's truly committed to homeland security, and that's exactly what John Kerry will do.
DOBBS: Let me interrupt you to ask this question too, as I try to discern a difference between the two candidates a trade. The countries run 28 consecutive years of trade deficit. We will have, we'll have the U.S. trade deficit reported tomorrow, $600 billion looks like it's going to be the new record trade deficit. Four trillion dollars in trade debt, nearly approaching $8 trillion on the national debt.
Will either of your candidates take on the issue of the impact of so-called free trade that is costing this country immense quantities of its wealth -- Sarah.
BIANCHI: Well, what John Kerry wants to do is something that President Bush has not done, and that is enforce our trade laws that exist today. We've seen China illegally manipulating currency under this president's watch, and he hasn't taken action. We've seen goods that have been dumped into our country, clearly violating existing trade law, and he hasn't done anything. We need a president who is going stand up for the American worker to fight for our trade laws, and that's exactly what John Kerry's going to do.
DOBBS: Tim.
ADAMS: We put in place more anti-dumping and subsidy cases than either term of the Clinton administration, the first term or the second term. We brought the first WTO case against China. Exports to China are up 30 percent. And it's interesting you mention the currency report on China. It's the same findings that Bob Rubin and Larry Summers found when they were running the Treasure Department. Bob Rubin is now advising, John Kerry.
Why was it OK, then when Bob Rubin was in the Treasury Department, but it's not OK now? BIANCHI: I think most people would take Bob Rubin as the Treasury secretary today over this administration's policy on the economy...
Susan, you didn't answer the question. You didn't question.
(CROSSTALK)
BIANCHI: ... The surplus. They address trade issues. They addressed the issues we have with so many countries.
DOBBS: Thank you both for being here. Tim Adams, Sarah Bianchi, thank you very much. And to both of you good luck in tonight's presidential presentations.
BIANCHI: Thanks a lot.
Coming up next, "Critical Condition," authors Donald Barlett and James Steele have produced a book that examines health care in a unique and I think compelling way. They've even come up with solutions, imagine that. Innovative solutions, they're my guess next.
And it is act 3, President Bush and Senator Kerry, their final presidential presentation. Three of the country's top political journalists join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In their new book "Critical Condition" Pulitzer Prize Award winning authors, Donald Barlett and James Steele expose what they call the horror of health care in America and they make a compelling case. Through personal stories, the book highlights what's wrong with our health care system, from bureaucratic HMO's to hospitals that are literally unsafe.
Joining me now, the authors of this new book, Donald Barlett and James Steele.
Gentlemen, good to have you here.
The most, to you, astonishing fact that you discovered in beginning your investigation to this book?
DONALD BARLETT, AUTHOR: I think it's the business of spending as much money as we do. The 1.7 trillion doesn't mean anything to ordinary people. But what should mean something is that we spend three times as much as the Japanese, they live four users longer than we do. We spend three times as much as -- two to three times as much in per capita as every other nation in the world and they all live longer than we do.
DOBBS: My guess is you can take a poll of most of us in the poll, and we'd say we have the longest lifespan of anyone in the world.
BARLETT: Absolutely. That's what the would show. This is one of the reasons or one of the conclusions we came to, that we don't have a world-class health care system. We have people who can do high-tech surgery and do wonderful procedures that affect maybe, you know, 2 percent or 3 percent of the population, but broad-based quality health care does not exist in this country.
DOBBS: And as fascinating as your study is and the revelations that you produce, James Steele, the fact that you've got a solution is what fascinates me, and it's a unique, innovative solution. Tell us about it as quickly as you can, both of you, and the approaches you're taking it, modeling it, not to frighten anybody, but modeling it of all things on the Federal Reserve System.
JAMES STEELE, AUTHOR: One of the things we came to a conclusion with is that the problem with the current system is the huge overlap, the administrative chaos that has created the turmoil, it's created a lot of the problems. So we need to streamline it, make it simpler. So we suggest a single-pair system, but everybody is very concerned about government and rightly so. So we suggest that we need a public agency, quasi-public agency, free from politics, free from the White House, free from Congress, something like the Federal Reserve system that can basically do the billing, pay the doctors, pay the hospitals, and make sure that everyone in America is covered, which is the biggest problem we have right now with increasing numbers of people.
DOBBS: And establish a national system. One of the things I find innovative -- not only innovative, but compelling in its prospect for success is by setting up a regional system, you bring with it sensitivities to sometimes real differences in this country region to region.
Let's talk about the fact that Senator Kerry, President Bush have got health care plans, too. I will tell you frankly neither one of them approaches yours, in my judgment, for freshness of outlook and prospect for success.
BARLETT: This is one of the real problems with health care. Everybody wants to tinker around the edges of the existing system and the existing system basically doesn't work. We don't need to sell more cardiac procedures, we don't need to sell more pills. We need to divert more money into preventive medicine, to prevent disease and illness. We need some over-arching body that will overlook after the health care of everyone.
STEELE: And it does not eliminate insurance. I mean, people can still buy...
DOBBS: It's not a complete success.
STEELE: It gives somebody the option if they want to do that.
DOBBS: The cost, the important issue. The cost of your plan.
BARLETT: We've looked at this, and who knows, but there's no reason you can't do this on a basic level and more importantly provide total catastrophic coverage to everyone in this country for less than what we're doing now. The other thing about this, Lou, is really interesting. In the interviews over the years Jim and I have done in other stories, people have always talked to us about changing jobs. They want to change careers, they want to start up a business, they want to do something different, and to a person, they say, but I can't do it because I'm afraid of losing my health care coverage. This could unleash all kinds of market forces that we weren't even thinking about.
DOBBS: The book is "Critical Condition." I can't recommend it to you too highly, even too urgently. An important examination of the health care system with real, real ideas about solving the problem. James Steele, Donald Barlett, thank you both for being here.
Still ahead, the third and final presidential presentation -- we still are not going to call this a debate -- live from Tempe, Arizona. We'll hear from three of the country's best political journalists coming up next. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now our special report about ordinary Americans, driven to run for office because of their frustration with the state of our government. Dr. Melissa Brown is a wife, a mother of three, a former nurse, an ophthalmologist, and she has an MBA. And she's adding another title to her resume. Dr. Brown is the Republican candidate for the 13th district in Pennsylvania. Lisa Sylvester has her story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. MELISSA BROWN (R), PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESS CANDIDATE: Hi, Melissa Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are you, Melissa?
BROWN: Good to see you again.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Melissa Brown is used to greeting patients as a physician, but today she's in another role -- politician.
BROWN: I'm running for Congress, and I hate politics. I like health care, I am absolutely convinced, every bone in my body is sure that I can make a difference down there.
SYLVESTER: Brown wants to expand health care for the uninsured, reduce wasteful spending by targeting inefficient federally funded clinical studies and supports tort reform, capping pain and suffering jury awards to bring down malpractice insurance costs for doctors. She was endorsed by Pennsylvania doctors who say rising malpractice costs are forcing them to leave the state.
DR. MARC RABINOWITZ, POLITICALLY ACTIVE PHYSICIANS ASSN.: I had patients this morning who have been waiting four months to see a gastroenterologist for a procedure. They've called four separate practices. They can't get an appointment.
SYLVESTER: Melissa Brown knows what the medical community is going through, because she's a nurse and a doctor, but she also understands how important it is to have adequate health care because she's a breast cancer survivor.
BROWN: We put a man in the moon in ten years and we haven't solved breast cancer yet or prostate cancer. So we have to make sure that we focus down and get that job done.
SYLVESTER: But not everyone agrees she can get it done. A recent Keystone poll shows she's trailing her opponent Allyson Schwartz by 11 points. Schwartz spent 14 years as state lawmaker and created a model program for expanding health care for children.
ALLYSON SCHWARTZ (D), PENNSYLVANIA CONG. CANDIDATE: In contrast to my opponent, I've gotten things done legislatively. I know how to work with Republicans and Democrats, how to get things through the legislature.
SYLVESTER: If elected Melissa Brown will be one of ten doctors in Congress versus 219 lawyers in office. Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And on presidential politics we're just a couple of hours away from the presidential presentations, the final. Joining me now are our panel of top political journalists, Karen Tumulty from "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report," and from Washington tonight, Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times."
Good to have you all here. Ron, since you have deferred to Washington, D.C., let me ask you, is this a critical, critical event for President Bush?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": I think so, Lou. I think this whole sequence has been critical in the trajectory of this election, as they have been on several previous occasions. I do think this is important for the president, because the trajectory in the polls lately has been, as we were talking about yesterday, somewhat against him, his approval rating is generally under 50. I think he has to reassure people that they want to continue in the path that he's set out. He's done a very good job of raising questions about Senator Kerry but as Senator Kerry has resolved some of those doubts in the debates, the questions about President Bush's leadership have resurfaced.
DOBBS: And, Roger, does this amount to momentum in your best judgment for Senator Kerry?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": I think he has the momentum now. We'll see if he has it tomorrow morning after this final debate. I think there's very little doubt in most minds, at least of reporters, that in general these first two debates have not helped George Bush. They have hurt George Bush, and I think it's showing up in the polls. You have to keep in mind this event tonight is the last real event of the campaign. From now, there's a mad dash to election day, and the candidates are just going to do their stump speeches. This tonight is the last creative event.
DOBBS: And Karen, are you expecting -- let me put it this way, a real examination of the differences between these men on real issues tonight, domestic policy in particular?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: I would be shocked if that happened, actually, Lou. Given the, you know, the lines that the two of them have been road-testing all week long, this is not a debate I think where you're going to hear the fine print discussed. I think that they are probably going to avoid details as much as possible, and go for these big themes that they've been talking about all week.
John Kerry will talk a lot about President Bush not caring about the concerns of ordinary people. And I think that President Bush will brand John Kerry a liberal at every opportunity he gets.
DOBBS: And in so doing, Roger Simon, I just moments ago talking with Tim Adams of the Bush/Cheney campaign, with Sara Bianchi from the Kerry/Edwards campaign. I asked them about 2 issues: immigration and trade, and I have to tell you folks, and I'd like you to help me here, I couldn't find a scintilla of difference in their candidates, frankly on those two issues. Roger, elucidate?
SIMON: You're probably not going to hear it from the candidates, if you didn't hear it from their issues people, because that's where those positions come from. We have heard in the primary debates, John Kerry's position on immigration, and I'm sure you'll hear it tonight, since we're in Arizona. I don't see how they can avoid this issue any longer. And it's pretty close to George Bush's. They both believe in amnesty programs that they don't call amnesty programs.
BROWNSTEIN: I don't agree, Lou. I don't agree. I think there's differences on immigration and trade. We can go through this argument, but essentially on immigration, there is one very important difference. They both believe that a key to reducing -- to dealing with the problem is establishing a guest worker program to allow people to come over the border legally rather than illegally.
The big difference though, and I think this is an important difference for voters, some may like it, a lot of it may not, is that John Kerry wants a much bigger funnel for people who are here illegally to eventually become U.S. citizens. The president doesn't really provide for much of that for all, John Kerry does
And also on trade, there's a big difference, in that John Kerry says that he will only sign trade agreements that have labor and human rights and environmental standards in them, something Bill Clinton did not agree to and something that President Bush doesn't agree to, which would make it very difficult to expand the free trade agreement that much of the business communities wants. So I do think there are differences there.
TUMULTY: But Ron, of course, the president initially proposed a much bigger funnel and essentially got smacked down by the Congress.
BROWNSTEIN: He never put it into a formal proposal, Karen. TUMULTY: But he was told by the Republican leadership of the Congress that that was absolutely not going anywhere.
BROWNSTEIN: Right.
TUMULTY: So I think whatever they are talking about now as their separate proposals, as long as the makeup of the Congress stays pretty much the way it is, I don't think you're going to see in practice you would see much difference between the two of them.
BROWNSTEIN: And that's an interesting question for John Kerry in general. You could say that about his health care plan, Karen. Because unless John Kerry can repeal the top parts of President Bush's tax cuts, he's going to be unable to do almost anything in his domestic agenda. And it's hard to see how he, a President Kerry, would convince a Republican Congress to do that. It would be an interesting question for him, how he can get a Republican Congress to go forward on the key elements of his domestic agenda.
DOBBS: Of all of the domestic issues tonight, the fact is that the state of the economy will be critically important as the domestic issue. Roger Simon, is there, in your judgment, a huge vulnerability here for President Bush and likewise a huge advantage for Senator Kerry?
SIMON: There could be if properly exploited. John Kerry needs to make tonight about jobs, jobs, jobs, where are they? Some people are seeing a modestly improving economy, but John Kerry will point out that's not the middle class, it's not the people who don't have jobs.
In John Kerry's focus groups among persuadable voters, the two issues that move persuadables over to John Kerry's camp are the middle-class squeeze and stem cell research. I think we'll hear about both of them, but I think it's going to be about jobs primary.
DOBBS: Do you suspect we're going to hear an echo of Senator Edwards' unfortunate expression about the impact of a Kerry presidency on stem cell research and those who would be allowed to walk again tonight, Karen?
TUMULTY: No, I don't think so. And the campaign, of course, has been trying to walk that one back a little bit. His assertion, essentially that if Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeves would be able to get out of their wheel chairs and walk. I think that the campaign is, if anything, is going to sort of try to walk that one back a little bit.
DOBBS: And do any of you have a sense of Robert Schieffer of CBS News keeping it close to the vest, is it your sense that he'll be a more, if you will, aggressive moderator tonight than the previous moderators?
TUMULTY: Well, you know, I know Bob Schieffer fairly well, and I'm on "Face the Nation" often with him. And Bob Schieffer's style really is to let the guys -- and his strength as an interviewer is to let these guys have their say. Often, you know, it gets them into places where they don't want to go.
So I would be surprised if he is you know, cutting them off, particularly rudely, or anything like that. But I think he will do his best to keep it moving, but he will also, I think, try to encourage as much dialogue as possible within the very severe restrictive rules.
SIMON: Aggressive moderators don't get picked as debate moderators, Lou. You're not going to see a lot of aggression tonight from Bob Schieffer.
DOBBS: With that being the case, let's hope we see enthusiastic assertions of substantive policy differences between the two presidential candidates. We thank you for your aggressive, and as always, insightful assertions here tonight. Thank you very much, Karen, Roger, Ron.
Some young people in Tempe, Arizona today thought there should be another candidate in this race, but as I told my friend and colleague Judy Woodruff today -- there it is -- I will not accept a draft.
Still ahead here, the results of our poll tonight. We'll have a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
Stay tuned to CNN, of course, throughout this evening for our special coverage of the final presidential presentation. It begins in just a few moments live from Tempe, Arizona. Anderson Cooper leading the way.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results our poll tonight, rather decisive. Our audience not moving into the undecided column on anything tonight. 7 percent of you saying U.S. taxpayer dollars should be spent to provide health care to Mexican citizens, 93 percent of you say taxpayer dollars should not be spent in such a manner.
Thanks for being with us. Please join us here tomorrow night. Former presidential adviser David Gergen will join me. We'll talk about the results of the final presidential presentation. We'll have our special report "Democracy at Risk" as we examine the risk to this democracy as the results of failed integrity in our national voting system. The League of Women Voters say paperless electronic voting machines are reliable, however. And I'll be joined by the president of the league, Kay Maxwell.
And driven to run, a former adviser to Attorney General John Ashcroft is so frustrated with a lack of security at our nation's borders, he's running for Congress. We'll have his story. Please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from "New York." "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 13, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, President Bush and Senator Kerry deliver their final presidential presentations just three hours from now. We'll have a live report from Tempe, Arizona.
We'll also have a real debate between representatives of both campaigns, and our debate allows for rebuttal, cross questions and full freedom of expression.
On November 2, will your vote count? Dramatic and troubling evidence tonight about the breakdown in the integrity of our national voting system.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't believe that somebody would go around, have you fill out a voter registration and then rip it up and throw it in the garbage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, our special report, Democracy at Risk.
A deadly day for American troops in Iraq. Six American soldiers have been killed. We'll have a report from Baghdad.
And the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country is bringing with it a health-care crisis, and, incredibly, the United States government is investing millions of dollars in Mexico's health- care system.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS THOMSON, SECRETARY, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: This is an investment for the health care of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Tonight, our special report from Nogales, Mexico.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, October 13. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Three hours from now, President Bush and Senator Kerry will meet one another in the final so-called debate of this campaign. Tonight's presidential presentations will focus on domestic issues -- the economy, health care, education, perhaps even immigration. The candidates hope the presentations will give them a decisive boost in the polls, just less than three weeks before the election.
John King is covering the president's campaign, Candy Crowley is covering the Kerry campaign. Both, of course, tonight are in Tempe, Arizona.
To John King now -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the president enters tonight's final debate with two major goals. One is to regain lost momentum, and the other, to convince the American people that his opponent, Democrat John Kerry, is a liberal, who is big on spending, big on higher taxes, out of step with the mainstream, will be the president's case tonight.
Hard to overstate the burden on the president tonight. He is widely perceived and the polls reflect the American people believe he lost the first two debates to Senator Kerry. He entered the debate series with a small, but consistent lead of 5 points or 6 points or so in the national polls. That has now evaporated into a dead heat.
And we're beginning to see over the past 24 to 48 hours several of the states Al Gore won 2000 that President Bush had been slightly ahead or at least contesting very firmly are beginning to shift John Kerry's way. So the president enters the debate tonight, hoping to shift the tide of this election at the moment.
He will do so, aides say, by saying that whether the issue is the economy or taxes or health care that his opponent's moderate rhetoric now does not match up with the 20-year Senate record that President Bush will say tonight proves Senator Kerry is a liberal out of the mainstream.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATTHEW DOWD, BUSH-CHENEY '04: John Kerry has fought medical liability reform. He believes his government program is a $1.5 trillion government program with doctors having very limited control and patients losing access to their doctors, and he believes in raising taxes which he's already stated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, as Mr. Bush makes his case tonight, even many of his own aides concede there's been so much personal sniping between these two candidates the president has been forced in the first two debates to spend so much time his defending policies in the war on terrorism, especially the war in Iraq, that he has not laid out much of his own specific plans for a second term, especially on these domestic issues on stage tonight.
Many of those who know politics well, including the veteran presidential adviser David Gergen, say slapping the liberal label on Kerry won't be enough. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Charging someone as being a liberal has some resonance, but not the electricity of the past. But in and of itself, it's not enough to win a debate. It's not enough to win an election. The president has to be putting forward very aggressively his own policies and plans and why they will work. He has to persuade people that the path we're now on is a good path.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, in reflection, the president knows full well the stakes for him tonight. The White House had been saying for days that his practice sessions for this debate were only informal, but word came today that, in fact, the president has been cramming on Air Force One, cramming in his limousine rides and motorcades to major events, two full practice debate sessions in the past 24 hours here in Arizona.
Lou, the president says he's relaxed. He predicts tonight will be fun, and he says he's in great spirits. He also, of course, carries a heavy burden after the first two debates -- Lou.
DOBBS: As you say, John, what is the staff -- the White House staff staff, the campaign staff of President Bush saying about these polls, those which had given him, as you reported, a relatively significant lead have now narrowed to -- or, in point of fact, given John Kerry the lead? How are they reacting to that?
KING: They say two things. One, that they always predicted a close race, that Senator Kerry has handled himself quite well, the Bush team concedes, in the first two debates and that some soft Democrats have come home to the Kerry campaign.
Some Bush advisers also concede that his debate performances, especially the first debate performance, lowered the intensity of the Republican vote. They say that has come back a bit after the spirited performance the president turned in in debate number two.
They say he needs to at least equal that, perhaps even do better tonight.
DOBBS: John, thank you.
Let's turn now to Candy Crowley for a report on the mood of the Kerry camp and the preparation of the senator for tonight's presentations -- Candy.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: In a word -- and the word comes from Senator Kerry -- he feels great. They go into this debate, they believe, with gravity on their side. That is, they believe the president needs to pick up momentum, and all Kerry has to do is keep it going.
They want to do two things tonight, and it very much reflects their strategy for the past two debates, and that is, A, hold the president accountable for his own record, and, B, keep positive. So it is sort of the one-two punch to keep reminding voters out there of how they see the Bush record and then coming in and saying but here's what I would do that's different.
As for the liberal label, they say they're not afraid of that, that people don't look at labels anymore, that John Kerry has a number of things he can point to, including his vote for a zero deficit, one of the few Democrats who did vote for a deficit reduction. So they want to put that out there.
The remarks from the Treasury secretary today about the deficits -- or about the surplus being a myth, about job loss being a myth, you will hear that tonight, Lou, for sure.
DOBBS: And the senator's record in the U.S. Senate for 19 years -- does the staff consider that to be a considerable vulnerability to the Bush-Cheney attack?
CROWLEY: They understand the attack. They say, look, these guys are pretty good at flagging what they're going to go after, and I think you saw sort of the mini debate in St. Louis, where they did get into some of that and where John Kerry said the labels don't mean anything, here's what I've done that are conservative.
And what they found Lou, is that, in fact, when they look at the internals in those polls where they're doing well with that sort of thing is with independents and swing voters and with the undecideds, so they're quite happy to take that debate on.
DOBBS: Candy, thank you very much.
Candy Crowley from Tempe, Arizona.
Both Candy Crowley, John King will be covering the debate throughout the evening here on CNN.
Troubling new concerns tonight about the integrity of our national voting system. There are now reports of voting problems in Nevada, Colorado and Ohio, and there are new concerns about electronic voting in Florida as well.
Dan Lothian has our special report, Democracy at Risk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): As the clock winds down in the race for the White House, there's growing concern over what the accuracy will be of the final count.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: David thinks he's registered to vote.
LOTHIAN: In Nevada, Eric Russell (ph), a former part-time worker for the Republican-backed group Voter's Outreach of America, alleges supervisors destroyed forms filled out by Democrats, through out registration receipts and put pressure on workers to only sign up Republicans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you brought in Democrats, you weren't getting paid. I mean, our -- bottom line.
LOTHIAN: He says he kept discarded paperwork as evidence. A Republican consultant with ties to the group says Russell is a disgruntled ex-employee trying to get even. In a statement, the Republican National Committee said, "Anyone who engages in fraudulent voter registration activities should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."
In Colorado, CNN affiliate KUSA found signs of fraud on registration forms, bogus names, Social Security numbers and dates of birth, and forged signatures.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm 100 percent that this is not her signature.
LOTHIAN: They spoke with this woman who claims she not only registered to vote 25 times, but also signed up three of her friends 40 times, all to help her boyfriend who was making $2 for every application, working for Acorn, a group aligned with the Democratic Party.
KIM CASON, GIRLFRIEND: You know, I was just helping the people out downtown. You know, everybody needs an extra dollar here and now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did have incidents where there were people who were attempting to defraud us.
LOTHIAN: And across the country in key battleground states like Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, some worry new voting technology may result in mistakes and fraud, and where there is no paper trail, an impossible task to recount.
Already in Florida, a problem. Power failure during Hurricane Jeanne may have damaged computer equipment causing a server to crash. A test of Palm Beach County's electronic voting system had to be postponed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LOTHIAN: All of these concerns have led to lawsuits and investigations. Various groups and officials are working very hard to lower the odds of irregularities with less than three weeks to go -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dan, a troubling report. We thank you.
Dan Lothian reporting from Boston.
DOBBS: New concerns tonight about Pennsylvania's voting system as well. A Pennsylvania judge has ruled that independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader should be taken off that state's ballot. The judge said there are literally thousands of fake signatures in the nominating petitions for Nader. The Nader campaign said that it will appeal the judge's ruling.
Turning to Iraq, insurgents today killed six more American troops. Two were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a military convoy in Mosul, four other American soldiers were killed in Baghdad. Radical Islamist terrorists also targeted Iraqi intelligence officers.
Brent Sadler has our report from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): The Fallujah-based terror group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi claims more victims: two Iraqi men said to be intelligence officers, both decapitated, their murders posted on an Islamic Web site, claimed by the same brand of killers who beheaded British hostage Kenneth Bigly last week, the same group that says its followers have carried out many of the deadliest car bomb attacks in Baghdad, including a recent blast that killed 34 children.
For weeks, Zarqawi's terror network in Fallujah has been targeted by U.S. air strikes. He's America's number one enemy in Iraq, with a $25 million reward for anyone who turns him in. Now, it seems, there's a new incentive, a blunt ultimatum from the interim government poised to strike with U.S.-backed ground troops.
AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through interpreter): If they don't hand us Zarqawi and his people in Fallujah, we will also conduct operations in Fallujah. We will spare no effort to protect the Iraqi people.
SADLER: Some local leaders in Fallujah are trying to negotiate the city out of a much-feared ground attack, one that could turn out to be even more intense and deadlier than a three-week U.S. Marines offensive in April that left hundreds of Iraqis dead.
(on camera): U.S. and Iraqi authorities are aiming to drive a wedge between Zarqawi extremists and home-grown nationalist insurgents, using air power to hit terror targets and dialogue to win over some insurgent leaders.
(voice-over): But the air strikes and turmoil have scattered large numbers of Fallujah's terrified population, and, with elections scheduled in three months, time is running out.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next here, border states, because of the invasion of illegal aliens, now face a massive health-care crisis. Astonishingly, the U.S. government is investing millions of dollars in Mexico's health-care system. We'll have that special exclusive report for you.
A U.S. senator faces a barrage of criticism tonight after he declares a terrorist attack against Capitol Hill could be imminent. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: I have closed my office in the Russell Senate Office Building under after the upcoming election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have that report next and hear more from the senator.
And a critical shortage of flu shots in this country has led to massive price gouging for flu vaccine. We'll have that story and a great deal more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota tonight is under fire from his colleagues after announcing that he would close his Capitol Hill office because of his concerns and fears of a terrorist attack. Senator Dayton last night said his office would be closed until after the election out of what he called, quote, "extreme, but necessary caution." The Minnesota Democrat cites a top-secret briefing on national security for his surprising warning and decision.
The senator spoke a few moments ago about his decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAYTON: I wouldn't advise anyone to visit Capitol Hill who wasn't required to do so between now and the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: No other members of Congress have announced plans to close down their offices. In fact, Washington, D.C., Mayor Anthony Williams today called Dayton's decision a very strange aberration. Mayor Williams says Washington is a safe city. New York Congressman Peter King called Senator Dayton paranoid.
In Broken Borders here, we've documented the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country, primarily from Mexico. Now millions of your tax dollars are being spent to provide health care to Mexican citizens not in this country, but in Mexico itself.
U.S. and Mexican health officials are meeting this week on both sides of the Arizona border. You will likely be astonished at just how much the United States is spending and how little the United States is receiving in return for its investment in Mexico.
Casey Wian reports from Nogales, Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During a visit to a Mexican hospital, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson played to the office with shaky Spanish... THOMPSON: Buenos tardes, damaci, caviaros.
WIAN: ... compliments...
(CROSSTALK)
THOMPSON: ... the most beautiful weather in the world, I'll tell you.
WIAN: ... and U.S. taxpayer money.
THOMPSON: As a demonstration of our friendship and support for this triage and stabilization unit, we are going to be funding the purchase of a CT scanner.
WIAN: Thompson's visit was part of the U.S./Mexico Border Health Commission's Binational Health Week. The conference brought politicians and health officials from both countries together on both sides of the border in Nogales, Arizona, and Nogales, Mexico. It included health fairs, visits to medical facilities and promises of financial assistance, nearly all from the United States.
In Fiscal 2004, Thompson's department gave the commission $5.5 million to monitor infectious diseases. The U.S. Congress gave the group another $4 million. Together, that's 10 times Mexico's contribution of less than a million dollars.
THOMPSON: This is really an investment to make sure that somebody's that's infected doesn't come into the United States, carries that disease into the United States. Better to find out right now and better to take care of it at the border. This is an investment for the health care of America.
WIAN: Border hospitals are overwhelmed by rising rates of tuberculosis, diabetes and trauma. If the region was its own state, it would rank last in access to health care and near the bottom in deaths from infectious diseases.
(on camera): Out-of-control immigration is the main reason U.S. border communities face a health-care crisis, yet instead of advocating for tighter border controls, many of the conference participants spoke as if this border either doesn't or shouldn't exist, at least as far as health care is concerned.
JULIO FRENK MORA, MEXICAN HEALTH SECRETARY: The migration that continues to happen day in and day out is -- it's part of what makes human -- the human race what it is.
WIAN (voice-over): But no talk of controlling the spread of disease by controlling the border.
Casey Wian, CNN, Nogales, Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Should U.S. taxpayer dollars be spent to provide health care to Mexican citizens? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
More disturbing news tonight about health care in this country. This time, concerns about widespread price gouging for flu vaccine. The allegations of price gougings come after officials declared half of this country's planned vaccine supply is contaminated.
A new survey shows vendors are charging hospitals -- or at least trying to -- charging them up to 10 times the original market price for the vaccine. The director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention calls the price gouging reprehensible and immoral.
Meanwhile, the Defense Department says it will defer mandatory flu vaccinations for some members of the U.S. military in order to ease the shortage. Troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Persian Gulf and South Korea will receive the vaccine first, along with those in critical jobs in the United States.
Coming up, Running on Empty. Rising gasoline prices are putting the squeeze on middle-class families and the candidates for the presidency. We'll have that story.
And tonight, a real debate. In our Face Off, a debate on energy prices, jobs, health care, immigration, other critical issues facing this country. We hope we'll hear the same issues tonight from the presidential candidates themselves. Bush-Cheney policy director Tim Adams, Kerry-Edwards policy director Sarah Bianchi will be here. They square off ahead of tonight's so-called presidential debate.
And a scathing indictment of the American health-care industry. "TIME" magazine investigative reports Donald Barlett and James Steele will be here to talk about their new book, an alarming book on the state of health care in this country, "Critical Condition." The good news is they have some innovative solutions.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush and Senator Kerry square off tonight against a backdrop of rising oil prices. The presidential candidates have traded election year barbs and attacks, and there is a considerable question about the impact of higher energy prices on the direction of the vote this year, but there is one central question: Is it possible for either candidate as president to really influence the direction of the price of oil? Louise Schiavone reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUISE SCHIAVONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sticker shock at the gas pump. It's an unwelcome turn of events, especially to a nation of consumers historically accustomed to ample supplies of cheap energy, supplies which have become increasingly tight.
JULIAN DARLEY, POST CARBON INSTITUTE: We've had some of the world's lousiest discoveries of oil in the last few years, and this is putting us in a real bind. So does the average voters understand the geological thrust of this? I really doubt it.
SCHIAVONE: But Americans are noticing. Nearly 10 times as many consumers are concerned about rising energy prices now than were worried at the beginning of this year, according to the University of Michigan Consumer Confidence Survey. Republicans are talking about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've got to get groceries. I'm going to be late.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... John Kerry and the liberals in Congress have voted to raise gas taxes 10 times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten times? The gas prices are high enough already.
SCHIAVONE: Democrats have made a point of it, too.
ANNOUNCER: The powerful and well connected get what they want from George Bush and Republicans in Congress. Drug companies get a $139 billion bail-out. Drug prices skyrocket. CEOs get big corporate tax breaks for shipping our jobs overseas. The Saudi royal family gets special favors. Gas prices soar.
SCHIAVONE: Analysts say neither candidate is being fair.
LARRY SABATO, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Both men's charges are ridiculous. Neither candidate, either a United States senator from Massachusetts or even the incumbent president of the United States, controls the price of gasoline.
SCHIAVONE: The only answers to the energy problem are producing more or using less, but neither Bush nor Kerry is selling sacrifice on the campaign trail. The last president who did, Jimmy Carter, was trounced by Ronald Reagan.
Louise Schiavone, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at your thoughts.
Billy Earl Bair in Boise, Idaho, "Is American pride dead. The United States at one time led the world in nearly every area. We did this by taking pride in our products and services. We sold a good product for a good price and stood behind the work. Americans need to regain the pride our greedy business leaders have sold down the river."
And Mfuz (ph) in Gaithersburg, Maryland, "I'm soon to be joining the many ranks of Americans who are losing their jobs due to outsourcing. Since my job is being lost, I will no longer have health insurance. No one seems to care about us hardworking Americans who are losing their jobs. Congress is doing nothing to stop the outsourcing. Is our country for sale?" And Howard in Corpus Christi, Texas, "Trade deficits, illegal aliens, so-called free trade agreements -- those issues will never be brought up by either candidate for president. Why? The multinational corporations that own both parties will not allow it to happen."
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Send us your name and address. Each of you whose e-mail is read on this broadcast receives a free copy of my new book, "Exporting America."
Coming up next, two down, one to go. In just a little over two hours, the final presidential presentation. We'll have a real debate here, though. The policy directors from both the Bush and Kerry campaigns in tonight's Face Off.
Also ahead, Prognosis "Critical Condition," the authors of a compelling new book on national health care will be here to talk about the problems and the solutions.
And reforming health care is one of this physician's top priorities.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELISSA BROWN, RUNNING FOR CONGRESS: We had a man on the moon in 10 years, and we haven't stopped breast cancer yet or prostate cancer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Melissa Brown is hoping her experience in the operating room as both a nurse and a doctor will help her in her fight to win the election to Congress. Her story and much more still ahead.
And CNN's live coverage of the third and final presidential presentation in Tempe, Arizona. It begins tonight in less than an hour, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: The presidential candidates tonight set for square off. The focus on domestic issues tonight will likely bring out some of the starkest contrasts between the two men. The differences we hope are at the center of tonight 'debate in our "Face-off."
Joining me now, Sarah Bianchi, she is policy director for the Kerry/Edwards campaign.
And Tim Adams, he's the policy director for the Bush/Cheney campaign.
Both joining us from Tempe, Arizona. Good to have you both here. Let me begin, if I may, with two issues we're not hearing a lot about from your respectively candidates in this campaign and critically important issues.
Is there really a dime's worth of difference between your candidates on the issue of immigration?
Let me start with you, if I may, Tim.
TIM ADAMS, POLICY DIRECTOR, BUSH/CHENEY: Well, the president laid out a plan earlier this year, in January, which would bring the immigrants who are working in the United States out of the shadows into the marketplace, so that we can identify them and document them. I think it's a very progressed approach to undocumented workers in this country. We think there somewhere between 10 or 14 million undocumented workers in this country today.
DOBBS: Undocumented workers or illegal aliens, Tim?
ADAMS: Well, you pick your phrase, but I think the...
DOBBS: They're here illegally. They're here illegally. They're not all workers. And when you say "undocumented," I don't know what that means.
ADAMS: It's an appropriate phrase, but if you'd like to call them illegal aliens, go right ahead, Lou.
DOBBS: And Sarah, your candidate. How does Senator Kerry differ from President Bush on this issue?
SARAH BIANCHI, POLICY DIRECTOR, KERRY/EDWARDS: Well, first of all, one the problem is that President Bush stopped talks with Vicente Fox of Mexico. And really is going to take working together to address this issue. Also, the president's plan is very different in that it allows employers to have all of the control. John Kerry has promised to outline a comprehensive immigration plan in his first 100 days in office, and that includes allowing folks who have been here for some time to earn legalization. And his plan also includes more border security, which as many organizations have reported, our borders have become more porous under this president.
DOBBS: Three million aliens according to "Time" magazine will cross our border this year. Will Senator Kerry, Sarah, make certain that our border is absolutely under control?
BIANCHI: He has outlined a plan to improve border security, and that includes better technology, more patrol at the borders, we need to do more on homeland security. But unfortunately this president has squandered so many resources on tax cuts for the wealthy, that we haven't made the investment in homeland security that we need to.
DOBBS: Looking for further distinctions, Tim, if I may, President Bush has not made border security a top priority. It could not be otherwise if he's willing to accept the idea that 3 million aliens can cross our borders this year. ADAMS: Lou, that's absolutely not true, it is a priority. This president has tripled the amount of money we spent on homeland security. We've spent more money on border patrols both on the southern and northern borders.
Susan talked about technology, we're already using technology. On John Kerry's homeland security agenda, we are already doing 31 of the 33 things that he is proposing, so what he proposes to do, we're already doing. We welcome him to the debate. I wish he decided to talk about this issue before he decided to run for president, despite the fact that he's been in the Senator for 20 years. It's another park of his unremarkable record in the United States Senate.
BIANCHI: John Kerry, has written books on this issue and he has talked about this issue. And Republicans and Democrats alike, from Senator Warren Rudman to Senator McCain to many others, have faulted the Bush administration for not making our homeland security investment a priority. The numbers that they'll give you tripling is not true. It counts existing money. We need a president who's truly committed to homeland security, and that's exactly what John Kerry will do.
DOBBS: Let me interrupt you to ask this question too, as I try to discern a difference between the two candidates a trade. The countries run 28 consecutive years of trade deficit. We will have, we'll have the U.S. trade deficit reported tomorrow, $600 billion looks like it's going to be the new record trade deficit. Four trillion dollars in trade debt, nearly approaching $8 trillion on the national debt.
Will either of your candidates take on the issue of the impact of so-called free trade that is costing this country immense quantities of its wealth -- Sarah.
BIANCHI: Well, what John Kerry wants to do is something that President Bush has not done, and that is enforce our trade laws that exist today. We've seen China illegally manipulating currency under this president's watch, and he hasn't taken action. We've seen goods that have been dumped into our country, clearly violating existing trade law, and he hasn't done anything. We need a president who is going stand up for the American worker to fight for our trade laws, and that's exactly what John Kerry's going to do.
DOBBS: Tim.
ADAMS: We put in place more anti-dumping and subsidy cases than either term of the Clinton administration, the first term or the second term. We brought the first WTO case against China. Exports to China are up 30 percent. And it's interesting you mention the currency report on China. It's the same findings that Bob Rubin and Larry Summers found when they were running the Treasure Department. Bob Rubin is now advising, John Kerry.
Why was it OK, then when Bob Rubin was in the Treasury Department, but it's not OK now? BIANCHI: I think most people would take Bob Rubin as the Treasury secretary today over this administration's policy on the economy...
Susan, you didn't answer the question. You didn't question.
(CROSSTALK)
BIANCHI: ... The surplus. They address trade issues. They addressed the issues we have with so many countries.
DOBBS: Thank you both for being here. Tim Adams, Sarah Bianchi, thank you very much. And to both of you good luck in tonight's presidential presentations.
BIANCHI: Thanks a lot.
Coming up next, "Critical Condition," authors Donald Barlett and James Steele have produced a book that examines health care in a unique and I think compelling way. They've even come up with solutions, imagine that. Innovative solutions, they're my guess next.
And it is act 3, President Bush and Senator Kerry, their final presidential presentation. Three of the country's top political journalists join me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In their new book "Critical Condition" Pulitzer Prize Award winning authors, Donald Barlett and James Steele expose what they call the horror of health care in America and they make a compelling case. Through personal stories, the book highlights what's wrong with our health care system, from bureaucratic HMO's to hospitals that are literally unsafe.
Joining me now, the authors of this new book, Donald Barlett and James Steele.
Gentlemen, good to have you here.
The most, to you, astonishing fact that you discovered in beginning your investigation to this book?
DONALD BARLETT, AUTHOR: I think it's the business of spending as much money as we do. The 1.7 trillion doesn't mean anything to ordinary people. But what should mean something is that we spend three times as much as the Japanese, they live four users longer than we do. We spend three times as much as -- two to three times as much in per capita as every other nation in the world and they all live longer than we do.
DOBBS: My guess is you can take a poll of most of us in the poll, and we'd say we have the longest lifespan of anyone in the world.
BARLETT: Absolutely. That's what the would show. This is one of the reasons or one of the conclusions we came to, that we don't have a world-class health care system. We have people who can do high-tech surgery and do wonderful procedures that affect maybe, you know, 2 percent or 3 percent of the population, but broad-based quality health care does not exist in this country.
DOBBS: And as fascinating as your study is and the revelations that you produce, James Steele, the fact that you've got a solution is what fascinates me, and it's a unique, innovative solution. Tell us about it as quickly as you can, both of you, and the approaches you're taking it, modeling it, not to frighten anybody, but modeling it of all things on the Federal Reserve System.
JAMES STEELE, AUTHOR: One of the things we came to a conclusion with is that the problem with the current system is the huge overlap, the administrative chaos that has created the turmoil, it's created a lot of the problems. So we need to streamline it, make it simpler. So we suggest a single-pair system, but everybody is very concerned about government and rightly so. So we suggest that we need a public agency, quasi-public agency, free from politics, free from the White House, free from Congress, something like the Federal Reserve system that can basically do the billing, pay the doctors, pay the hospitals, and make sure that everyone in America is covered, which is the biggest problem we have right now with increasing numbers of people.
DOBBS: And establish a national system. One of the things I find innovative -- not only innovative, but compelling in its prospect for success is by setting up a regional system, you bring with it sensitivities to sometimes real differences in this country region to region.
Let's talk about the fact that Senator Kerry, President Bush have got health care plans, too. I will tell you frankly neither one of them approaches yours, in my judgment, for freshness of outlook and prospect for success.
BARLETT: This is one of the real problems with health care. Everybody wants to tinker around the edges of the existing system and the existing system basically doesn't work. We don't need to sell more cardiac procedures, we don't need to sell more pills. We need to divert more money into preventive medicine, to prevent disease and illness. We need some over-arching body that will overlook after the health care of everyone.
STEELE: And it does not eliminate insurance. I mean, people can still buy...
DOBBS: It's not a complete success.
STEELE: It gives somebody the option if they want to do that.
DOBBS: The cost, the important issue. The cost of your plan.
BARLETT: We've looked at this, and who knows, but there's no reason you can't do this on a basic level and more importantly provide total catastrophic coverage to everyone in this country for less than what we're doing now. The other thing about this, Lou, is really interesting. In the interviews over the years Jim and I have done in other stories, people have always talked to us about changing jobs. They want to change careers, they want to start up a business, they want to do something different, and to a person, they say, but I can't do it because I'm afraid of losing my health care coverage. This could unleash all kinds of market forces that we weren't even thinking about.
DOBBS: The book is "Critical Condition." I can't recommend it to you too highly, even too urgently. An important examination of the health care system with real, real ideas about solving the problem. James Steele, Donald Barlett, thank you both for being here.
Still ahead, the third and final presidential presentation -- we still are not going to call this a debate -- live from Tempe, Arizona. We'll hear from three of the country's best political journalists coming up next. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now our special report about ordinary Americans, driven to run for office because of their frustration with the state of our government. Dr. Melissa Brown is a wife, a mother of three, a former nurse, an ophthalmologist, and she has an MBA. And she's adding another title to her resume. Dr. Brown is the Republican candidate for the 13th district in Pennsylvania. Lisa Sylvester has her story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. MELISSA BROWN (R), PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESS CANDIDATE: Hi, Melissa Brown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are you, Melissa?
BROWN: Good to see you again.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Melissa Brown is used to greeting patients as a physician, but today she's in another role -- politician.
BROWN: I'm running for Congress, and I hate politics. I like health care, I am absolutely convinced, every bone in my body is sure that I can make a difference down there.
SYLVESTER: Brown wants to expand health care for the uninsured, reduce wasteful spending by targeting inefficient federally funded clinical studies and supports tort reform, capping pain and suffering jury awards to bring down malpractice insurance costs for doctors. She was endorsed by Pennsylvania doctors who say rising malpractice costs are forcing them to leave the state.
DR. MARC RABINOWITZ, POLITICALLY ACTIVE PHYSICIANS ASSN.: I had patients this morning who have been waiting four months to see a gastroenterologist for a procedure. They've called four separate practices. They can't get an appointment.
SYLVESTER: Melissa Brown knows what the medical community is going through, because she's a nurse and a doctor, but she also understands how important it is to have adequate health care because she's a breast cancer survivor.
BROWN: We put a man in the moon in ten years and we haven't solved breast cancer yet or prostate cancer. So we have to make sure that we focus down and get that job done.
SYLVESTER: But not everyone agrees she can get it done. A recent Keystone poll shows she's trailing her opponent Allyson Schwartz by 11 points. Schwartz spent 14 years as state lawmaker and created a model program for expanding health care for children.
ALLYSON SCHWARTZ (D), PENNSYLVANIA CONG. CANDIDATE: In contrast to my opponent, I've gotten things done legislatively. I know how to work with Republicans and Democrats, how to get things through the legislature.
SYLVESTER: If elected Melissa Brown will be one of ten doctors in Congress versus 219 lawyers in office. Lisa Sylvester, CNN, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And on presidential politics we're just a couple of hours away from the presidential presentations, the final. Joining me now are our panel of top political journalists, Karen Tumulty from "TIME" magazine, Roger Simon, "U.S. News & World Report," and from Washington tonight, Ron Brownstein, "Los Angeles Times."
Good to have you all here. Ron, since you have deferred to Washington, D.C., let me ask you, is this a critical, critical event for President Bush?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": I think so, Lou. I think this whole sequence has been critical in the trajectory of this election, as they have been on several previous occasions. I do think this is important for the president, because the trajectory in the polls lately has been, as we were talking about yesterday, somewhat against him, his approval rating is generally under 50. I think he has to reassure people that they want to continue in the path that he's set out. He's done a very good job of raising questions about Senator Kerry but as Senator Kerry has resolved some of those doubts in the debates, the questions about President Bush's leadership have resurfaced.
DOBBS: And, Roger, does this amount to momentum in your best judgment for Senator Kerry?
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": I think he has the momentum now. We'll see if he has it tomorrow morning after this final debate. I think there's very little doubt in most minds, at least of reporters, that in general these first two debates have not helped George Bush. They have hurt George Bush, and I think it's showing up in the polls. You have to keep in mind this event tonight is the last real event of the campaign. From now, there's a mad dash to election day, and the candidates are just going to do their stump speeches. This tonight is the last creative event.
DOBBS: And Karen, are you expecting -- let me put it this way, a real examination of the differences between these men on real issues tonight, domestic policy in particular?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: I would be shocked if that happened, actually, Lou. Given the, you know, the lines that the two of them have been road-testing all week long, this is not a debate I think where you're going to hear the fine print discussed. I think that they are probably going to avoid details as much as possible, and go for these big themes that they've been talking about all week.
John Kerry will talk a lot about President Bush not caring about the concerns of ordinary people. And I think that President Bush will brand John Kerry a liberal at every opportunity he gets.
DOBBS: And in so doing, Roger Simon, I just moments ago talking with Tim Adams of the Bush/Cheney campaign, with Sara Bianchi from the Kerry/Edwards campaign. I asked them about 2 issues: immigration and trade, and I have to tell you folks, and I'd like you to help me here, I couldn't find a scintilla of difference in their candidates, frankly on those two issues. Roger, elucidate?
SIMON: You're probably not going to hear it from the candidates, if you didn't hear it from their issues people, because that's where those positions come from. We have heard in the primary debates, John Kerry's position on immigration, and I'm sure you'll hear it tonight, since we're in Arizona. I don't see how they can avoid this issue any longer. And it's pretty close to George Bush's. They both believe in amnesty programs that they don't call amnesty programs.
BROWNSTEIN: I don't agree, Lou. I don't agree. I think there's differences on immigration and trade. We can go through this argument, but essentially on immigration, there is one very important difference. They both believe that a key to reducing -- to dealing with the problem is establishing a guest worker program to allow people to come over the border legally rather than illegally.
The big difference though, and I think this is an important difference for voters, some may like it, a lot of it may not, is that John Kerry wants a much bigger funnel for people who are here illegally to eventually become U.S. citizens. The president doesn't really provide for much of that for all, John Kerry does
And also on trade, there's a big difference, in that John Kerry says that he will only sign trade agreements that have labor and human rights and environmental standards in them, something Bill Clinton did not agree to and something that President Bush doesn't agree to, which would make it very difficult to expand the free trade agreement that much of the business communities wants. So I do think there are differences there.
TUMULTY: But Ron, of course, the president initially proposed a much bigger funnel and essentially got smacked down by the Congress.
BROWNSTEIN: He never put it into a formal proposal, Karen. TUMULTY: But he was told by the Republican leadership of the Congress that that was absolutely not going anywhere.
BROWNSTEIN: Right.
TUMULTY: So I think whatever they are talking about now as their separate proposals, as long as the makeup of the Congress stays pretty much the way it is, I don't think you're going to see in practice you would see much difference between the two of them.
BROWNSTEIN: And that's an interesting question for John Kerry in general. You could say that about his health care plan, Karen. Because unless John Kerry can repeal the top parts of President Bush's tax cuts, he's going to be unable to do almost anything in his domestic agenda. And it's hard to see how he, a President Kerry, would convince a Republican Congress to do that. It would be an interesting question for him, how he can get a Republican Congress to go forward on the key elements of his domestic agenda.
DOBBS: Of all of the domestic issues tonight, the fact is that the state of the economy will be critically important as the domestic issue. Roger Simon, is there, in your judgment, a huge vulnerability here for President Bush and likewise a huge advantage for Senator Kerry?
SIMON: There could be if properly exploited. John Kerry needs to make tonight about jobs, jobs, jobs, where are they? Some people are seeing a modestly improving economy, but John Kerry will point out that's not the middle class, it's not the people who don't have jobs.
In John Kerry's focus groups among persuadable voters, the two issues that move persuadables over to John Kerry's camp are the middle-class squeeze and stem cell research. I think we'll hear about both of them, but I think it's going to be about jobs primary.
DOBBS: Do you suspect we're going to hear an echo of Senator Edwards' unfortunate expression about the impact of a Kerry presidency on stem cell research and those who would be allowed to walk again tonight, Karen?
TUMULTY: No, I don't think so. And the campaign, of course, has been trying to walk that one back a little bit. His assertion, essentially that if Kerry is president, people like Christopher Reeves would be able to get out of their wheel chairs and walk. I think that the campaign is, if anything, is going to sort of try to walk that one back a little bit.
DOBBS: And do any of you have a sense of Robert Schieffer of CBS News keeping it close to the vest, is it your sense that he'll be a more, if you will, aggressive moderator tonight than the previous moderators?
TUMULTY: Well, you know, I know Bob Schieffer fairly well, and I'm on "Face the Nation" often with him. And Bob Schieffer's style really is to let the guys -- and his strength as an interviewer is to let these guys have their say. Often, you know, it gets them into places where they don't want to go.
So I would be surprised if he is you know, cutting them off, particularly rudely, or anything like that. But I think he will do his best to keep it moving, but he will also, I think, try to encourage as much dialogue as possible within the very severe restrictive rules.
SIMON: Aggressive moderators don't get picked as debate moderators, Lou. You're not going to see a lot of aggression tonight from Bob Schieffer.
DOBBS: With that being the case, let's hope we see enthusiastic assertions of substantive policy differences between the two presidential candidates. We thank you for your aggressive, and as always, insightful assertions here tonight. Thank you very much, Karen, Roger, Ron.
Some young people in Tempe, Arizona today thought there should be another candidate in this race, but as I told my friend and colleague Judy Woodruff today -- there it is -- I will not accept a draft.
Still ahead here, the results of our poll tonight. We'll have a preview of what's ahead tomorrow.
Stay tuned to CNN, of course, throughout this evening for our special coverage of the final presidential presentation. It begins in just a few moments live from Tempe, Arizona. Anderson Cooper leading the way.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results our poll tonight, rather decisive. Our audience not moving into the undecided column on anything tonight. 7 percent of you saying U.S. taxpayer dollars should be spent to provide health care to Mexican citizens, 93 percent of you say taxpayer dollars should not be spent in such a manner.
Thanks for being with us. Please join us here tomorrow night. Former presidential adviser David Gergen will join me. We'll talk about the results of the final presidential presentation. We'll have our special report "Democracy at Risk" as we examine the risk to this democracy as the results of failed integrity in our national voting system. The League of Women Voters say paperless electronic voting machines are reliable, however. And I'll be joined by the president of the league, Kay Maxwell.
And driven to run, a former adviser to Attorney General John Ashcroft is so frustrated with a lack of security at our nation's borders, he's running for Congress. We'll have his story. Please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from "New York." "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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