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American Morning

'Kamber & May'; Discussions Between Iraqi Leaders Trying to Bring Civility to Fallujah

Aired October 13, 2004 - 08:30 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back here in New York, the Northeast a bit sleepy today, by the way. Everybody was up watching the game last night, Red Sox and Yankees. I was at the game. Mike Mussina is pitching a perfect game in the seventh inning. So you can't leave, right, even though we get up at 4:00? You can't go. I mean, this is history in the making. So they give up a hit and leave. It's 8-0 nothing Yankees. By the time I got home, it's 8-7. Red Sox are only down one. Yankees won the game last night 10-7, so that series is off and running, in a big way, too.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Aren't you glad they won after all that?

HEMMER: I'm staying neutral.

COLLINS: I see. All right.

Well, as you know, it's now half past the hour on AMERICAN MORNING. A serious push under way now in Fallujah, Iraq to disarm insurgents. It's a mission with great risks, though, one which could pave the way to elections there. Brent Sadler is in Iraq. He's going to have a report on this, coming up in just a few minutes.

Also this half hour, health officials asking that people who are most at risk be given top priority for a flu vaccine. But apparently that's not working very well. We'll look at how hard it can be to find a shot, and what could be done to fix that problem, big topic this season now.

Back to Daryn Kagan at the CNN Center, looking at the news this hour.

Daryn, good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, good morning to you.

A major find in Iraq could lead to more evidence in a potential trial against Saddam Hussein. U.S. forces have exhumed a mass grave site in northwestern Iraq. Many of the bodies may be Kurdish women and children executed by the Saddam regime in the late 1980s. Some 300,000 people are believed to have been killed during Saddam's 24 years in power.

U.S. authorities are watching an extradition hearing in London today. A court will decide if Muslim cleric Abu Hamza will be brought to the U.S. U.S. officials want to try him in New York on a string of charges, including conspiracy to set up a terrorist training camp in the state of Oregon.

In California, striking hotel workers in San Francisco, they're ready to get back to work. The workers are set to end their two-week strike against 14 hotels, but hotel operators say they're going to lockout union workers until an agreement is reached.

Also, out of California, a pro-gay Republican organization is challenging the military "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The group, Log Cabin Republicans, have asked for an injunction to keep the Pentagon from enforcing that measure from 1993. It allows gays and lesbians to serve in the armed forces, so long as they do not disclose their sexual orientation or engage in homosexual acts.

Bill, back to you.

HEMMER: All right, Daryn, thanks for that.

Thirty-two minutes past, 20 days and counting now until November 2nd. Both candidates gearing up for tonight's final debate in the southwest. President Bush attended a rally in Colorado Springs yesterday before making his way to Arizona for the duel in the desert later tonight.

Senator John Kerry wakes up in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where yesterday he took some time out for a bit of a bike ride. He heads to Arizona, we are told, this afternoon.

Our resident debaters, Kamber and May, are of two minds when it comes to politics, just about every time. Democratic strategist Victor Kamber back with us in Washington.

Vic, good morning to you.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: Also Cliff May, former RNC communications director, now the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

And, Cliff, welcome back as well.

CLIFF MAY, FMR. RNC COMM. DIR.: Good morning.

HEMMER: Let's get it started here. I want to layout the challenges for the President Bush, then get to the challenge for Senator Kerry. On the screen, Cliff, for you, who can better handle the following categories on the domestic front. When it comes to the environment, health care deficit, Medicare, stem cell research, education, they all go John Kerry's way. That's a challenge for the president tonight,to change this. Can he, in 90 minutes?

MAY: No, in 90 minutes, you don't move numbers like that. And one thing this may suggest is that if Kerry had taken a fairly hawkish position on the war on terrorism in Iraq and just stuck to it, there would be no debate there. And so the debate would shift to where there is controversy, where there are differences on the domestic side, and there, Kerry does rather well. The problem really for Kerry is that people have been focused much more on national security and the enlarging differences between Kerry and Bush on...

HEMMER: So you're suggesting he's missing the point in this election?

MAY: I think. I would argue that it was a mistake for him not to be all along what he had at times has been, or what Edwards has been, which is hawkish in terms of national security, and clearly hawkish to say Bush and I do not disagree on this issue, so let's talk about the issues on which we do disagree. It was hard to do that, because the left wing of the Democratic Party might have slipped towards Nader, and I think that he was more worried about Nader in a sense than about this major problem.

HEMMER: What do you make of that victor?

KAMBER: Well, I think it's hogwash. No. 1, the reason the poll numbers show what they are is that Bush is a failure in those areas, and that's fairly clear, and I think tonight's debate will only exacerbate that. Bush cannot make up those numbers. He'll try to do well tonight. But the fact is, all those numbers in domestic area, people think that way for the right reason, frankly, and that is that Bush has failed us domestically. In terms of what Cliff just said, John Kerry couldn't avoid dealing with the issue of terrorism and the war, and he doesn't agree with George Bush. He believes that we went to war for -- we should have taken Saddam out. Obviously doesn't believe we did it the right way, that we had the right information, that once George Bush got the power from Congress, he should have been more judicious, should have surrounded himself with more support, all of those things, and what he's saying is, if I'm there, I will change the direction of how we end this war in Iraq.

The big thing for John Kerry, he had to convince, and still does, the American public that he has the gravitas, that he has the capability of leading this country with -- under a terrorist-alert period and in a war. We know he can do it with a domestic issue, so while he continues to look on domestic issues, foreign policy is still what he has to convince the American people about.

HEMMER: Cliff, 10 seconds. Wrap that up, and I'll go to the next topic here.

MAY: Just basically, I do think foreign policy will find its way into the debate tonight anyhow. What you just heard in the news report, more mass graves still being found in Iraq. That is startling. I don't think that will be avoided. I'll let you go on to the next question.

HEMMER: Thank for you that.

I'm want to talk about the taxes, because we know it's going to come up later tonight. Here what happened Friday night in debate No. 2 when John Kerry asked about that pledge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm pledging I will not raise taxes. I'm giving a tax cut to the people earning less than $200,000 a year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Despite that pledge on Friday night, on our screen, polling numbers say, if Kerry wins your taxes would, what, increase -- 48 percent say they would increase. Can you change that perception, Victor?

KAMBER: I'm not sure you can change it. I think, again, the Bush people have been very effective in their commercials. Up until now, their 527s, their surrogates, and Bush himself, calling, you know, the Democrats the party of spending. You can only go in my judgment on Bush's -- on Kerry's record and word. He's clearly said he will raise the taxes, there's no doubt about it, on people earning $200,000 or more. He's made a commitment not to raise taxes on the vast number of Americans 85, 90 percent, whatever the number is, who do not earn $200,000. I believe him.

We are in a deficit like we have never seen, caused by this administration. We have got to bring in more money than we are bringing in now to meet the war and all the other needs of this country. But I believe he's committed not to raise taxes on the middle-class Americans.

HEMMER: Cliff, why do people not believe that promise, based on polling anyway?

MAY: Because there is no way he can do the things he wants to do and not raise taxes. And you can't just do it by hitting rich people like Victor. The fact of the matter is, as Willie Sutton said, he robs banks, because that's where the money is. If you want to raise taxes, the middle class, that's where the money is. Any independent economist looking at what Kerry has said knows that if he wants to have these huge government programs, he will have to raise taxes, and people understand that.

HEMMER: Victor, final word, 10 seconds?

MAY: I was going to say, and the only question that comes with it, if Cliff is right, what program doesn't Cliff want? What medical, health, environmental, infrastructure, etc., program doesn't Cliff want? I don't believe there's going to be more taxes; I believe there's going to be better programs.

HEMMER: We'll hear more tonight, Kamber and May in D.C. today. Candidates begin later tonight, third and final debate, Tempe, Arizona. Our primetime coverage starts at 7:00 Eastern here on CNN -- Heidi.

COLLINS: To Iraq now, where discussions push on between Iraqi leaders trying to bring civility to Fallujah amid near-daily U.S. airstrikes.

Brent Sadler is live now in Iraq with the very -- excuse me, in Baghdad, with the very latest.

Brent, good morning.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks. Good morning, Heidi.

Ongoing attempts by the Iraqi interim government to have discussions with certain elements within Fallujah. Fallujah is that principle source of instability, that rebel stronghold west of the Iraqi capital, and the attempt is within the government also in parallel with ongoing military airstrikes against terror cells, suspected terror cells, in Fallujah is to try to cleave a way national groups, former supporters of the ousted regime, old Baathists, if you'd like, to cleave them away from the hardcore foreign fighters, led by Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, in Fallujah. It's thought his group responsible for some of the most ruthless act of terrorism Iraq has seen in the past few months.

So what we're seeing is ongoing military pressure on Fallujah to create a fracture between the local people and the foreign fighters, who found sanctuary and operational bases within there. That's from the military side. On the political side, inducements to national insurgents to come onboard for government plans for elections at the end of January.

Add that to a broadening offensive throughout the country, from Fallujah as far as northwest to the Syrian border, and you get an idea, a very clear picture, that as we go toward elections over the next four months, the U.S.-backed Iraqi authorities are really going to be pushing very, very hard against not only Fallujah, but other rebel hold areas -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Brent Sadler, live this morning from Baghdad. Brent, thanks for the update -- Bill.

HEMMER: About 20 minutes before the hour now. Back in this country, the U.S. Supreme Court hearing arguments later today in a case that will decide whether or not it is unconstitutional to execute 16 and 17-year-old convicts.

In D.C. for us, here is Bob Franken this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's 28 years old now, but Christopher Simmons was 17 when he and an accomplice pushed a neighbor off a railroad bridge to her death in St. Louis County, Missouri, after robbing her of just $6, and beating her and tying her up. Simmons was sentenced to be executed.

Now the fundamental question before the Supreme Court is whether offenders should be put to death for their crimes as juveniles in these times?

WILLIAM MOFFITT, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTY.: Should the Constitution reflect the evolving standards of society?

FRANKEN: The justices decided in 2002 those evolving standards meant the execution of the mentally retarded should not be allowed. (on camera): On the issue of putting juvenile killers to death, 18 states still permit it, but the Missouri supreme court last year declared it was unconstitutional, and that's the case before the U.S. Supreme Court.

(voice-over): The United States is one of just a few countries that still execute juvenile killers. Among those submitted briefs in opposition are Mikhail Gorbachev and Dalai Lama. That raises a significant legal debate.

PETER WHITE, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Should what extent should the court look to international law and international standards in determining whether or not the -- it would violate the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the U.S. Constitution.

FRANKEN: His lawyers contend juvenile offenders like Simmons have limited capacity to make responsible decisions. The other side argues, it's the nature of the crime which should determine the penalty, not the criminal's age.

Bob Franken, CNN, the Supreme Court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And if you've been with us this morning, you know Jack's been talking about the story as well. Should juveniles be subjected to the death penalty? That's our e-mail question of the day. Am@CNN.com if you want to weigh in on that -- Heidi.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: In a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING, Andy Serwer is back "Minding Your Business," telling us why one of the icons of the Swiss Alps may need to find a new line of work. I like this story, too. We'll check in with Drew on that.

COLLINS: Plus, for some people not getting a flu shot is an inconvenience. For others, though, a deadly serious problem. One man's search for a shot, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Dr. Sanjay Gupta is off today. But in this morning's medical segment, the shortage of the flu vaccine has been making headlines. And now the Centers for Disease Control has the plan to get the vaccine for those who need it most. And I spoke with the director of the CDC earlier on AMERICAN MORNING.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIE GERBERDING, CDC DIRECTOR: We're asking clinicians and the people who are sponsoring clinics across the country to really try to screen people for these high-risk conditions. And again, it's the children between the ages of six and 23 months that we're worried about the most, people with those chronic and serious medical conditions, and then people 65 and older. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: But actually getting the vaccine may not be easy. Elizabeth Cohen now has the story of one man's desperate search for a shot.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Mike Saffold's life could depend on finding a flu shot. He has diabetes, and he just had triple heart bypass surgery. So if he got the flu, he could be extremely ill. But when he went to his family doctor, he was told, no flu shots here. His office ordered 300 doses, and received none.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to find out whether you guys had any flu vaccine, any -- nothing.

COHEN: And there's little hope of getting any more.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are still CVS and Publics (ph).

COHEN: Worried about her husband, Mike's wife hits the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Due to a national flu vaccine shortage, CVS has suspended all flu clinics scheduled in our stores until further notice.

COHEN: But no luck.

(on camera): Mike's next stop was going to be his church, where every the county health department comes and gives out flu shots. But then he found out, not this year. Dekalb County in Georgia has had to cancel all of its flu shot clinics, hundreds of them, because of the shortage.

(voice-over): And that's the case around the country. The senior center in Onadonga (ph) County, New York, no flu shots. Vanderbilt Hospital in Tennessee, also no flu shots. New York City Mt. Sinai's Hospital ordered 1500 shots, received none.

DR. LESTER CRAWFORD, FDA: It is important to remember that we have faced influenza shortages in the past. We work with our HHS colleagues, health officials and manufacturers on how to best use the limited supply.

COHEN: That's not good enough for some in Congress.

REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), D.C. DELEGATE: Here we're sitting here wondering what are we going to do with no backup plan? This is inexcusable.

COHEN: There are two possible solutions. Some experts say pay pharmaceutical companies more money to produce vaccine, and the supply will increase. Another idea, let the government make the vaccine.

DR. JERRY AVORN (ph), AUTHOR, "POWERFUL MEDICINES": We have some very smart scientists at NIH and at CDC who are perfectly capable of making the nation's vaccine supply so that this does not happen again.

COHEN: But both of these solutions would be years away, which leaves Mike Saffold still on the hunt for a flu shot, and praying he doesn't get sick.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Tucker, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Still to come now this morning, there's an unemployment problem in the Swiss Alps, but it's man's best friend singing the blues. Andy Serwer's "Minding Your Business." He'll explain that, coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: All right. Welcome back everyone.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: We got a few good dogs looking for a few good jobs. Swiss St. Bernard's on the dole, out of work, and a market preview. Andy Serwer's here, "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Did you see that they said a "ruff" job market.

CAFFERTY: I didn't see it.

SERWER: We'll get into that in a second.

All right, let's talk about the market very quickly. Yesterday, a bit of a downer, just a bit, down single digits here. Futures up nicely this morning, though, oil prices seem to be stabilizing for the time being, and that's the operative phrase there.

OK, you know about the St. Bernard, the dogs in Switzerland that save lives in the Alps. There are the noble beasts. These things are great.

Well, get this, the monks at the St. Bernard's Hospice, which is where they are up there, are planning to sell these beasts, OK. And we'll get into this, this is some great footage actually up there at the monastery. There is someone loose. OK, there are 18 grown dogs and 16 puppies for sale. They've been up there 200 years, saving up to 2,000 lives.

CAFFERTY: Those are really old dogs.

SERWER: Yes, some of those dogs are old, Jack.

See, that's a monk right there with a dog, 200-year-old dog.

And listen to this, but the dogs, as it turns out, (INAUDIBLE), haven't done any work since 1975. They've been up there over 25 years. They're basically a tourist attracts. Helicopters have come in, and even worse than that, they've been using golden retrievers and German shepherds to do the work. These dogs, 220 pounds, are just too big to go through the snow.

And here's what else has been going on. So during the wintertime, they send these dogs down to the valley into kennels, so when they used to work, they're down in these kennels, and they only bring them up in the summertime for tourists.

HEMMER: They're props.

SERWER: They're props. These dogs eat four pounds of meat a day. And the monks say forget it. Now there's one stipulation, the new owners are required to let the dogs come back up to the pass in the summertime for the tourists. So there's a limited amount of people that are going to be...

CAFFERTY: Oh, sure. That kind of narrows the margin, doesn't it?

SERWER: It sure does.

Now for what they carry in those barrels around their neck, Jack, what do you think?

CAFFERTY: Well, I always thought it was, like, brandy.

HEMMER: A medicine kit.

SERWER: I always thought it was hot chocolate.

Turns out Jack was right. It's brandy.

CAFFERTY: It's brand, right? To get the heart started for people that have been overcome by the cold in the snow, hypothermia. I used to carry that a little around when I skied myself.

SERWER: Right around your neck or in the flask.

CAFFERTY: Wherever I could fit it.

SERWER: Yes, there you go.

CAFFERTY: Wednesday, time to take a look at things people say, beginning with this: "I don't like flings. I also don't believe in marrying more than one woman at a time." This was said by Kamaruddin Mohammed. He's 72 years old, he lives in Malaysia. He did an interview with one of the papers over there. He's been married 53 times since 1957. And recently, he remarried his first wife.

SERWER: Back to the beginning.

CAFFERTY: God bless him.

Here's another one: "I'm not sure I'd say that Angelina Jolie was brilliant in the way they used her in Laura Croft. To me, big breasts, hot pants and a gun in your hand are not what make a heroine." This is Sigourney Weaver talking about Angelina Jolie. I actually agree with her, you don't need a gun. "Martha Stewart will love it here, and we hope she'll want to come back after she's released. This is a beautiful community." This is Karen Lobban who lives in Alderson, West Virginia, where Martha Stewart's doing her time in the slam there, the minimum-security federal prisons. I can't imagine Martha's going to want to build another summerhouse down there when she gets out.

"If I could only go through the ducks and leap out on the stage in a cape. That's my dream." Ralph Nader, talking about why he has been excluded from the presidential debates, which is wrong. He ought to be there. But the debates are under the control of Republican and Democratic Party, so guys like Ralph no longer have a shot.

And finally this one, "By the way y'all sat next to each other at the prayer breakfast." That would be Elizabeth Edwards, Senator Edwards wife, relaying what she told Dick Cheney after vice presidential debate last week. Cheney, you'll remember he said, he never met Edwards before that night, and there was footage all over the television for the next 24 hours. Not only once, but several times they've been in the same room right next to each other, so that was a bogus deal wit the vice president. Is President Bush going to have that satellite dish on his back tonight under his coast?

HEMMER: I'm not sure. What did you say before? Radio Indonesia.

CAFFERTY: W. gets prompting from Radio Indonesia.

HEMMER: Did you see that picture? He had something under his jacket.

SERWER: Well, it might have been kelvar (sic) or something.

CAFFERTY: Kevlar.

HEMMER: Kevlar.

SERWER: Kevlar, that's what that stuff is.

CAFFERTY: Might have been brandy.

HEMMER: Now you're on to something.

COLLINS: From brandy, back to politics, though. Still to come this morning, controversy in Colorado, potential change in election laws could dramatically effect the race for the White House. We're going to ask the governor of Colorado all about it, next hour.

And don't forget, CNN's primetime coverage of the final presidential debate from Tempe, Arizona begins tonight, 7:00. AMERICAN MORNING will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired October 13, 2004 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back here in New York, the Northeast a bit sleepy today, by the way. Everybody was up watching the game last night, Red Sox and Yankees. I was at the game. Mike Mussina is pitching a perfect game in the seventh inning. So you can't leave, right, even though we get up at 4:00? You can't go. I mean, this is history in the making. So they give up a hit and leave. It's 8-0 nothing Yankees. By the time I got home, it's 8-7. Red Sox are only down one. Yankees won the game last night 10-7, so that series is off and running, in a big way, too.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Aren't you glad they won after all that?

HEMMER: I'm staying neutral.

COLLINS: I see. All right.

Well, as you know, it's now half past the hour on AMERICAN MORNING. A serious push under way now in Fallujah, Iraq to disarm insurgents. It's a mission with great risks, though, one which could pave the way to elections there. Brent Sadler is in Iraq. He's going to have a report on this, coming up in just a few minutes.

Also this half hour, health officials asking that people who are most at risk be given top priority for a flu vaccine. But apparently that's not working very well. We'll look at how hard it can be to find a shot, and what could be done to fix that problem, big topic this season now.

Back to Daryn Kagan at the CNN Center, looking at the news this hour.

Daryn, good morning.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, good morning to you.

A major find in Iraq could lead to more evidence in a potential trial against Saddam Hussein. U.S. forces have exhumed a mass grave site in northwestern Iraq. Many of the bodies may be Kurdish women and children executed by the Saddam regime in the late 1980s. Some 300,000 people are believed to have been killed during Saddam's 24 years in power.

U.S. authorities are watching an extradition hearing in London today. A court will decide if Muslim cleric Abu Hamza will be brought to the U.S. U.S. officials want to try him in New York on a string of charges, including conspiracy to set up a terrorist training camp in the state of Oregon.

In California, striking hotel workers in San Francisco, they're ready to get back to work. The workers are set to end their two-week strike against 14 hotels, but hotel operators say they're going to lockout union workers until an agreement is reached.

Also, out of California, a pro-gay Republican organization is challenging the military "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The group, Log Cabin Republicans, have asked for an injunction to keep the Pentagon from enforcing that measure from 1993. It allows gays and lesbians to serve in the armed forces, so long as they do not disclose their sexual orientation or engage in homosexual acts.

Bill, back to you.

HEMMER: All right, Daryn, thanks for that.

Thirty-two minutes past, 20 days and counting now until November 2nd. Both candidates gearing up for tonight's final debate in the southwest. President Bush attended a rally in Colorado Springs yesterday before making his way to Arizona for the duel in the desert later tonight.

Senator John Kerry wakes up in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where yesterday he took some time out for a bit of a bike ride. He heads to Arizona, we are told, this afternoon.

Our resident debaters, Kamber and May, are of two minds when it comes to politics, just about every time. Democratic strategist Victor Kamber back with us in Washington.

Vic, good morning to you.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: Also Cliff May, former RNC communications director, now the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.

And, Cliff, welcome back as well.

CLIFF MAY, FMR. RNC COMM. DIR.: Good morning.

HEMMER: Let's get it started here. I want to layout the challenges for the President Bush, then get to the challenge for Senator Kerry. On the screen, Cliff, for you, who can better handle the following categories on the domestic front. When it comes to the environment, health care deficit, Medicare, stem cell research, education, they all go John Kerry's way. That's a challenge for the president tonight,to change this. Can he, in 90 minutes?

MAY: No, in 90 minutes, you don't move numbers like that. And one thing this may suggest is that if Kerry had taken a fairly hawkish position on the war on terrorism in Iraq and just stuck to it, there would be no debate there. And so the debate would shift to where there is controversy, where there are differences on the domestic side, and there, Kerry does rather well. The problem really for Kerry is that people have been focused much more on national security and the enlarging differences between Kerry and Bush on...

HEMMER: So you're suggesting he's missing the point in this election?

MAY: I think. I would argue that it was a mistake for him not to be all along what he had at times has been, or what Edwards has been, which is hawkish in terms of national security, and clearly hawkish to say Bush and I do not disagree on this issue, so let's talk about the issues on which we do disagree. It was hard to do that, because the left wing of the Democratic Party might have slipped towards Nader, and I think that he was more worried about Nader in a sense than about this major problem.

HEMMER: What do you make of that victor?

KAMBER: Well, I think it's hogwash. No. 1, the reason the poll numbers show what they are is that Bush is a failure in those areas, and that's fairly clear, and I think tonight's debate will only exacerbate that. Bush cannot make up those numbers. He'll try to do well tonight. But the fact is, all those numbers in domestic area, people think that way for the right reason, frankly, and that is that Bush has failed us domestically. In terms of what Cliff just said, John Kerry couldn't avoid dealing with the issue of terrorism and the war, and he doesn't agree with George Bush. He believes that we went to war for -- we should have taken Saddam out. Obviously doesn't believe we did it the right way, that we had the right information, that once George Bush got the power from Congress, he should have been more judicious, should have surrounded himself with more support, all of those things, and what he's saying is, if I'm there, I will change the direction of how we end this war in Iraq.

The big thing for John Kerry, he had to convince, and still does, the American public that he has the gravitas, that he has the capability of leading this country with -- under a terrorist-alert period and in a war. We know he can do it with a domestic issue, so while he continues to look on domestic issues, foreign policy is still what he has to convince the American people about.

HEMMER: Cliff, 10 seconds. Wrap that up, and I'll go to the next topic here.

MAY: Just basically, I do think foreign policy will find its way into the debate tonight anyhow. What you just heard in the news report, more mass graves still being found in Iraq. That is startling. I don't think that will be avoided. I'll let you go on to the next question.

HEMMER: Thank for you that.

I'm want to talk about the taxes, because we know it's going to come up later tonight. Here what happened Friday night in debate No. 2 when John Kerry asked about that pledge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm pledging I will not raise taxes. I'm giving a tax cut to the people earning less than $200,000 a year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Despite that pledge on Friday night, on our screen, polling numbers say, if Kerry wins your taxes would, what, increase -- 48 percent say they would increase. Can you change that perception, Victor?

KAMBER: I'm not sure you can change it. I think, again, the Bush people have been very effective in their commercials. Up until now, their 527s, their surrogates, and Bush himself, calling, you know, the Democrats the party of spending. You can only go in my judgment on Bush's -- on Kerry's record and word. He's clearly said he will raise the taxes, there's no doubt about it, on people earning $200,000 or more. He's made a commitment not to raise taxes on the vast number of Americans 85, 90 percent, whatever the number is, who do not earn $200,000. I believe him.

We are in a deficit like we have never seen, caused by this administration. We have got to bring in more money than we are bringing in now to meet the war and all the other needs of this country. But I believe he's committed not to raise taxes on the middle-class Americans.

HEMMER: Cliff, why do people not believe that promise, based on polling anyway?

MAY: Because there is no way he can do the things he wants to do and not raise taxes. And you can't just do it by hitting rich people like Victor. The fact of the matter is, as Willie Sutton said, he robs banks, because that's where the money is. If you want to raise taxes, the middle class, that's where the money is. Any independent economist looking at what Kerry has said knows that if he wants to have these huge government programs, he will have to raise taxes, and people understand that.

HEMMER: Victor, final word, 10 seconds?

MAY: I was going to say, and the only question that comes with it, if Cliff is right, what program doesn't Cliff want? What medical, health, environmental, infrastructure, etc., program doesn't Cliff want? I don't believe there's going to be more taxes; I believe there's going to be better programs.

HEMMER: We'll hear more tonight, Kamber and May in D.C. today. Candidates begin later tonight, third and final debate, Tempe, Arizona. Our primetime coverage starts at 7:00 Eastern here on CNN -- Heidi.

COLLINS: To Iraq now, where discussions push on between Iraqi leaders trying to bring civility to Fallujah amid near-daily U.S. airstrikes.

Brent Sadler is live now in Iraq with the very -- excuse me, in Baghdad, with the very latest.

Brent, good morning.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks. Good morning, Heidi.

Ongoing attempts by the Iraqi interim government to have discussions with certain elements within Fallujah. Fallujah is that principle source of instability, that rebel stronghold west of the Iraqi capital, and the attempt is within the government also in parallel with ongoing military airstrikes against terror cells, suspected terror cells, in Fallujah is to try to cleave a way national groups, former supporters of the ousted regime, old Baathists, if you'd like, to cleave them away from the hardcore foreign fighters, led by Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, in Fallujah. It's thought his group responsible for some of the most ruthless act of terrorism Iraq has seen in the past few months.

So what we're seeing is ongoing military pressure on Fallujah to create a fracture between the local people and the foreign fighters, who found sanctuary and operational bases within there. That's from the military side. On the political side, inducements to national insurgents to come onboard for government plans for elections at the end of January.

Add that to a broadening offensive throughout the country, from Fallujah as far as northwest to the Syrian border, and you get an idea, a very clear picture, that as we go toward elections over the next four months, the U.S.-backed Iraqi authorities are really going to be pushing very, very hard against not only Fallujah, but other rebel hold areas -- Heidi.

COLLINS: Brent Sadler, live this morning from Baghdad. Brent, thanks for the update -- Bill.

HEMMER: About 20 minutes before the hour now. Back in this country, the U.S. Supreme Court hearing arguments later today in a case that will decide whether or not it is unconstitutional to execute 16 and 17-year-old convicts.

In D.C. for us, here is Bob Franken this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's 28 years old now, but Christopher Simmons was 17 when he and an accomplice pushed a neighbor off a railroad bridge to her death in St. Louis County, Missouri, after robbing her of just $6, and beating her and tying her up. Simmons was sentenced to be executed.

Now the fundamental question before the Supreme Court is whether offenders should be put to death for their crimes as juveniles in these times?

WILLIAM MOFFITT, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTY.: Should the Constitution reflect the evolving standards of society?

FRANKEN: The justices decided in 2002 those evolving standards meant the execution of the mentally retarded should not be allowed. (on camera): On the issue of putting juvenile killers to death, 18 states still permit it, but the Missouri supreme court last year declared it was unconstitutional, and that's the case before the U.S. Supreme Court.

(voice-over): The United States is one of just a few countries that still execute juvenile killers. Among those submitted briefs in opposition are Mikhail Gorbachev and Dalai Lama. That raises a significant legal debate.

PETER WHITE, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Should what extent should the court look to international law and international standards in determining whether or not the -- it would violate the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the U.S. Constitution.

FRANKEN: His lawyers contend juvenile offenders like Simmons have limited capacity to make responsible decisions. The other side argues, it's the nature of the crime which should determine the penalty, not the criminal's age.

Bob Franken, CNN, the Supreme Court.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And if you've been with us this morning, you know Jack's been talking about the story as well. Should juveniles be subjected to the death penalty? That's our e-mail question of the day. Am@CNN.com if you want to weigh in on that -- Heidi.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: In a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING, Andy Serwer is back "Minding Your Business," telling us why one of the icons of the Swiss Alps may need to find a new line of work. I like this story, too. We'll check in with Drew on that.

COLLINS: Plus, for some people not getting a flu shot is an inconvenience. For others, though, a deadly serious problem. One man's search for a shot, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLLINS: Dr. Sanjay Gupta is off today. But in this morning's medical segment, the shortage of the flu vaccine has been making headlines. And now the Centers for Disease Control has the plan to get the vaccine for those who need it most. And I spoke with the director of the CDC earlier on AMERICAN MORNING.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIE GERBERDING, CDC DIRECTOR: We're asking clinicians and the people who are sponsoring clinics across the country to really try to screen people for these high-risk conditions. And again, it's the children between the ages of six and 23 months that we're worried about the most, people with those chronic and serious medical conditions, and then people 65 and older. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: But actually getting the vaccine may not be easy. Elizabeth Cohen now has the story of one man's desperate search for a shot.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Mike Saffold's life could depend on finding a flu shot. He has diabetes, and he just had triple heart bypass surgery. So if he got the flu, he could be extremely ill. But when he went to his family doctor, he was told, no flu shots here. His office ordered 300 doses, and received none.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to find out whether you guys had any flu vaccine, any -- nothing.

COHEN: And there's little hope of getting any more.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are still CVS and Publics (ph).

COHEN: Worried about her husband, Mike's wife hits the phone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Due to a national flu vaccine shortage, CVS has suspended all flu clinics scheduled in our stores until further notice.

COHEN: But no luck.

(on camera): Mike's next stop was going to be his church, where every the county health department comes and gives out flu shots. But then he found out, not this year. Dekalb County in Georgia has had to cancel all of its flu shot clinics, hundreds of them, because of the shortage.

(voice-over): And that's the case around the country. The senior center in Onadonga (ph) County, New York, no flu shots. Vanderbilt Hospital in Tennessee, also no flu shots. New York City Mt. Sinai's Hospital ordered 1500 shots, received none.

DR. LESTER CRAWFORD, FDA: It is important to remember that we have faced influenza shortages in the past. We work with our HHS colleagues, health officials and manufacturers on how to best use the limited supply.

COHEN: That's not good enough for some in Congress.

REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), D.C. DELEGATE: Here we're sitting here wondering what are we going to do with no backup plan? This is inexcusable.

COHEN: There are two possible solutions. Some experts say pay pharmaceutical companies more money to produce vaccine, and the supply will increase. Another idea, let the government make the vaccine.

DR. JERRY AVORN (ph), AUTHOR, "POWERFUL MEDICINES": We have some very smart scientists at NIH and at CDC who are perfectly capable of making the nation's vaccine supply so that this does not happen again.

COHEN: But both of these solutions would be years away, which leaves Mike Saffold still on the hunt for a flu shot, and praying he doesn't get sick.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Tucker, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: Still to come now this morning, there's an unemployment problem in the Swiss Alps, but it's man's best friend singing the blues. Andy Serwer's "Minding Your Business." He'll explain that, coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: All right. Welcome back everyone.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: We got a few good dogs looking for a few good jobs. Swiss St. Bernard's on the dole, out of work, and a market preview. Andy Serwer's here, "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Did you see that they said a "ruff" job market.

CAFFERTY: I didn't see it.

SERWER: We'll get into that in a second.

All right, let's talk about the market very quickly. Yesterday, a bit of a downer, just a bit, down single digits here. Futures up nicely this morning, though, oil prices seem to be stabilizing for the time being, and that's the operative phrase there.

OK, you know about the St. Bernard, the dogs in Switzerland that save lives in the Alps. There are the noble beasts. These things are great.

Well, get this, the monks at the St. Bernard's Hospice, which is where they are up there, are planning to sell these beasts, OK. And we'll get into this, this is some great footage actually up there at the monastery. There is someone loose. OK, there are 18 grown dogs and 16 puppies for sale. They've been up there 200 years, saving up to 2,000 lives.

CAFFERTY: Those are really old dogs.

SERWER: Yes, some of those dogs are old, Jack.

See, that's a monk right there with a dog, 200-year-old dog.

And listen to this, but the dogs, as it turns out, (INAUDIBLE), haven't done any work since 1975. They've been up there over 25 years. They're basically a tourist attracts. Helicopters have come in, and even worse than that, they've been using golden retrievers and German shepherds to do the work. These dogs, 220 pounds, are just too big to go through the snow.

And here's what else has been going on. So during the wintertime, they send these dogs down to the valley into kennels, so when they used to work, they're down in these kennels, and they only bring them up in the summertime for tourists.

HEMMER: They're props.

SERWER: They're props. These dogs eat four pounds of meat a day. And the monks say forget it. Now there's one stipulation, the new owners are required to let the dogs come back up to the pass in the summertime for the tourists. So there's a limited amount of people that are going to be...

CAFFERTY: Oh, sure. That kind of narrows the margin, doesn't it?

SERWER: It sure does.

Now for what they carry in those barrels around their neck, Jack, what do you think?

CAFFERTY: Well, I always thought it was, like, brandy.

HEMMER: A medicine kit.

SERWER: I always thought it was hot chocolate.

Turns out Jack was right. It's brandy.

CAFFERTY: It's brand, right? To get the heart started for people that have been overcome by the cold in the snow, hypothermia. I used to carry that a little around when I skied myself.

SERWER: Right around your neck or in the flask.

CAFFERTY: Wherever I could fit it.

SERWER: Yes, there you go.

CAFFERTY: Wednesday, time to take a look at things people say, beginning with this: "I don't like flings. I also don't believe in marrying more than one woman at a time." This was said by Kamaruddin Mohammed. He's 72 years old, he lives in Malaysia. He did an interview with one of the papers over there. He's been married 53 times since 1957. And recently, he remarried his first wife.

SERWER: Back to the beginning.

CAFFERTY: God bless him.

Here's another one: "I'm not sure I'd say that Angelina Jolie was brilliant in the way they used her in Laura Croft. To me, big breasts, hot pants and a gun in your hand are not what make a heroine." This is Sigourney Weaver talking about Angelina Jolie. I actually agree with her, you don't need a gun. "Martha Stewart will love it here, and we hope she'll want to come back after she's released. This is a beautiful community." This is Karen Lobban who lives in Alderson, West Virginia, where Martha Stewart's doing her time in the slam there, the minimum-security federal prisons. I can't imagine Martha's going to want to build another summerhouse down there when she gets out.

"If I could only go through the ducks and leap out on the stage in a cape. That's my dream." Ralph Nader, talking about why he has been excluded from the presidential debates, which is wrong. He ought to be there. But the debates are under the control of Republican and Democratic Party, so guys like Ralph no longer have a shot.

And finally this one, "By the way y'all sat next to each other at the prayer breakfast." That would be Elizabeth Edwards, Senator Edwards wife, relaying what she told Dick Cheney after vice presidential debate last week. Cheney, you'll remember he said, he never met Edwards before that night, and there was footage all over the television for the next 24 hours. Not only once, but several times they've been in the same room right next to each other, so that was a bogus deal wit the vice president. Is President Bush going to have that satellite dish on his back tonight under his coast?

HEMMER: I'm not sure. What did you say before? Radio Indonesia.

CAFFERTY: W. gets prompting from Radio Indonesia.

HEMMER: Did you see that picture? He had something under his jacket.

SERWER: Well, it might have been kelvar (sic) or something.

CAFFERTY: Kevlar.

HEMMER: Kevlar.

SERWER: Kevlar, that's what that stuff is.

CAFFERTY: Might have been brandy.

HEMMER: Now you're on to something.

COLLINS: From brandy, back to politics, though. Still to come this morning, controversy in Colorado, potential change in election laws could dramatically effect the race for the White House. We're going to ask the governor of Colorado all about it, next hour.

And don't forget, CNN's primetime coverage of the final presidential debate from Tempe, Arizona begins tonight, 7:00. AMERICAN MORNING will be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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