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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Bush, Kerry Prepare for Third Debate; Interview With Mark Dayton

Aired October 13, 2004 - 17:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. Final showdown. Debate number one went to Kerry and helped. Debate number two polls say Kerry won but didn't really help. Will undecided voters make up their minds after tonight. Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Domestic dispute. Jobs, taxes, and health care, the final debate just hours away. Celebrity activists square off. Director Rob Reiner and actor Ron Silver.

CNN exclusive, top secret terror fears. I will go one on one with the U.S. senator who closed his Capitol Hill office.

The flu. First the shortage, now the price gouging. I will speak with CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding.

Eminem and M.J. Slim Shady takes a poke and the king of pop takes offense.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from Tempe, Arizona, site of the third and final presidential debate. This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

BLITZER: It's the last big showdown before the election, now just 20 days away and four hours from now, President George W. Bush and Senator John F. Kerry will go head to head here in Tempe, Arizona in their third and final presidential debate. We are following both candidates. Our White House correspondent Dana Bash is with the Bush campaign. Our senior political correspondent Candy Crowley is with the Kerry campaign. Let's start with Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, despite the fact that the White House had told us that the president would only have some informal meetings to prepare for his debate. Now the White House communications director Dan Bartlett says that the president actually had very formal debate prep sessions, two of them actually. One last night and one this morning. Not only that he's been practicing in all of his downtime, in his motorcade, on the plane, practicing his lines, boning up on the issues. It underscores just how critical the Bush team thinks tonight is going to be.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): The Bush campaign frames the strategy for round three in simple terms.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think government ought to help people realize their dreams, not tell them how to live their lives.

BASH: Use the 90-minute focus on domestic issues to lay out what they call a fundamental difference in philosophy between the candidates.

MATTHEW DOWD, BUSH CAMPAIGN SR. STRATEGIST: On the one hand somebody that thinks big government and high taxes is the way to go and a president who thinks a smaller government with people having more control and lower taxes is the way to go.

BASH: Mr. Bush's goals: question the senator's credibility by saying his spending proposals and promise to shrink the deposit don't add up. Zero in on parts of Kerry's 20-year record to argue he's a liberal.

BUSH: It's the crux of his health care policy.

BASH: And point to big proposals like health care as proof the senator wants to expand the government while Mr. Bush would give private incentives to expand coverage.

But polls show the senator has an advantage with voters on key domestic issues. Bush aides privately admit they have a high hurdle in turning that around.

In the dizzying world of predebate spin, Bush aides are hoping what they see as Team Kerry's overconfidence about a 2-0 debate record will backfire.

NICOLLE DEVENISH, BUSH COMM. DIRECTOR: The Kerry campaign is reminding me of a peacock over the last 10 days. They are very interested in admiring their feathers, really talking up their performance in the debate.

BASH: But some Republicans are concerned Senator Kerry is getting what the first president Bush dubbed "the big mo." Momentum and this president needs a win.

DAVID GERGEN, FMR. WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Can Kerry break out, can he open up? But if he were to win a third time, conceivably he can do that but I can guarantee you if he wins tonight, it will give him enough enthusiasm and fire in his campaign that it will go to the end in a very close race.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And the Bush spin now is they always thought it would be a close race, but even inside the Bush camp they privately admit Kerry has what one aide called "mini mo" in talking about the momentum. And they know that tonight is an important time to try to stop that. BLITZER: Dana Bash, thanks. Let's check in with the Kerry campaign. For that we go to our senior political correspondent Candy Crowley. How upbeat, Candy, is the Democratic presidential nominee?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, very upbeat. He left New Mexico this morning where he's been studying. Said he felt great. But I have to tell you interesting listening to Dana because one of the things that one of his strategists was quick to point out was we're not overconfident. So they clearly don't want to appear as we heard right after the St. Louis debate John Kerry went to Ohio and said well, we're now 2-0. So insofar as that has sunk into the Kerry campaign, they are now saying we are not overconfident here but we want to talk about the issues. We believe the issues are on our side. So they are trying to take a little of that swagger out of what has been happening over the last couple of debates.

BLITZER: Candy Crowley reporting for us. Thank you, Candy, very much. We will have much more coming up on this program on this third and final presidential debate. Much more coming up indeed throughout the night here on CNN. Anderson Cooper starts our prime-time coverage, 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Paula Zahn at 8 p.m. I will be back with the entire CNN election team 8:30 for our special predebate program, "The Final Presidential Debate." 90 minutes begins 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

Let's turn now to a very important story. The national flu vaccine shortage. CNN's Fred Katayama has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRED KATAYAMA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): People are lining up for hours in supermarkets and pharmacies to get hard to find flu shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do think people would be willing to spend more than average for a flu vaccine.

KATAYAMA: But just how much more? Profiteers are trying to take advantage of the flu shot shortage. More than half of the hospital pharmacies responding to a survey reported they have been offered flu vaccine at prices that would make one sick.

Ranging from four to as many as ten times the original price. And Kansas' attorney general has sued a Florida vendor charging that Medstat jacked up its price from $85 to $900 a vial.

Medstat's attorney was not available for comment.

KASEY THOMSPON, AMER. SOCIETY OF HEALTH SYSTEM PHARMACISTS: There is significant opportunistic pricing that's going on in the market right now which could equate to lesser access by those patients that are most vulnerable to getting the flu and suffering the consequences of the flu.

KATAYAMA: Louise Wise (ph) is going from drugstore to drugstore searching for a shot. So far no luck. I will keep on checking the senior centers and then I'll probably stop at every drug store I find. But it looks as though it's only by accident that you would find one.

KATAYAMA: CNN has learned Rite-Aid will cut short its flu clinic this Sunday. Walgreens and CVS have already ended their clinics. The CDC calls this price gouging an immoral thing.

Fred Katayama, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And joining us now from Atlanta is Dr. Julie Gerberding, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Dr. Gerberding, thanks very much for joining us. Immoral, but is it illegal to price gouge at a time like this?

DR. JULIE GERBERDING, CDC: Well, in fact in some states, it certainly is illegal and we are looking into the legality in the other states that haven't quite clarified their regulations.

In any case, I think it is reprehensible to take advantage of people at a time when we are working so hard to get vaccine out to people who need it the most.

BLITZER: The federal government can't get involved directly when they hear of price gouging, this is a state issue? Is that what you are saying?

GERBERDING: Yes, in general states have the jurisdiction over this kind of pricing. But certainly at the federal government level we are interested in knowing where it's happening, we're working hard with our partners to identify particularly egregious examples and we're making sure that the appropriate health officials are aware of it.

BLITZER: It is reprehensible, but how widespread, based on the initial reports you are getting, is it?

GERBERDING: Well, unfortunately, we are getting more and more reports every day. So my fear is that there are certain organizations out there, broadly canvassing pharmacies and other locations in the states with these kinds of price increases. Hopefully the sources are limited to just a few, but at any rate it is certainly creating yet another challenge for this very difficult flu season.

BLITZER: So what has happened over the past few days? Is there some light at the end of this tunnel? Is the crisis going to be resolved soon?

GERBERDING: The first thing to know is that we are at the very beginning of the flu season and we can't predict whether this could be a mild season or a more severe than usual season. Yesterday we were able to work with Adventis to identify an allocation scheme for another 14 million doses of vaccine which will be rolling out over the next several weeks. We have 8 million more doses including about 4.5 million in the CDC stockpile that we'll be using to target areas where there really is a gap between the people who need the vaccine and those who have already gotten it.

BLITZER: I suspect that my mother is in the same kind of predicament that a lot of older people are in. She lives in southern Florida. She's 82 years old. She's been calling around trying to get a flu shot. She simply can't find a doctor who has any supplies. What should she do?

GERBERDING: This is such a challenging time and we're sorry that people are in this difficult situation. I think there are two words. One is patience. Because there are more doses coming and the local health officials and the state health officials are working hard to identify them and let people know where they can find vaccine.

But also persistence -- it is going to take extra effort, and we'll have more inconvenience this year in trying to find those flu doses. We're doing everything we can, and we'll be stepping up some hotlines and some other information resources to help people out.

BLITZER: Dr. Gerberding, a lot of people are going to try to pin blame for this crisis -- right now I think it's fair to call it a crisis. Who should accept responsibility for this crisis?

GERBERDING: Well, the big problem is that we simply have a fragile vaccination capability in this country. I think in the short run, we are always in the difficult dilemma of wanting to get as many people vaccinated as possible, but never being entirely sure how bad the flu season is going to be, how many people will actually get vaccinated, and what the supply will be on a year-to-year basis.

So, I certainly am taking some of the accountability for this, because I feel like if we had a more robust immunization program and if CDC had focused more attention on its fragility, maybe we could have moved things faster in the direction where we wouldn't have these supply problems.

BLITZER: Dr. Julie Gerberding, stepping up to the plate as she always does. Thanks very much, Dr. Gerberding. Let's hope this problem is resolved very, very quickly. Lots of lives are at stake -- that's right, I assume. How many lives potentially are at stake in this matter?

GERBERDING: Well, you know, each year about 36,000 people die of influenza and about 200,000 are hospitalized. What we're hoping this year is by targeting the people most at risk for those serious complications, we'll be able to save lives and do the very best we can to get the people who need the vaccine fast.

BLITZER: Dr. Gerberding, thank you very much.

And our live coverage of the final presidential debate will continue from here in Tempe with a look at celebrity endorsements. The director, Rob Reiner standing by. I'll speak with him. He's a Kerry supporter. He'll join me live. And we'll also hear from a Bush supporter, the actor Ron Silver. He's coming up later. Plus, terror fears on Capitol Hill. I'll speak live with the senator who's decided to close his office on Capitol Hill until the election is over. My exclusive interview with Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota. That's coming up here this hour.

And later, Eminem imitating Michael Jackson, but this is no form of flattery. Now, the King of Pop is fighting right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The CNN Election Express bus made a stop here at beautiful Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. That's the site of tonight's third and final presidential debate.

Welcome back. Both presidential candidates have some Hollywood heavy hitters in their corner. Later this hour, I'll speak live with the actor Ron Silver, who's backing President Bush.

But right now, Director Rob Reiner is joining us from Los Angeles. He's strongly supporting John Kerry -- in fact, has just made a TV ad for moveon.org's Political Action Committee. Rob, thanks very much for joining us.

Let me play a little...

ROB REINER, DIRECTOR/POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Thanks for having me, Wolf.

BLITZER: ... from the ad you just put out. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REINER: Four years ago, a mistake was made. On November 2, we can correct that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MoveOn PAC is responsible for the content of this advertisement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, so tell our viewers why you've decided from directing -- getting involved directly in movies and films to putting together this moveon.org ad.

REINER: Well, I though it was important to point out that this president has been a disaster for our country. He's made a number of mistakes and has not admitted them.

We saw recently in the last debate, one of the people at the town hall meeting asked him to list three of the mistakes he had made, and he couldn't mention any.

As you remember, back at his April press conference, he was also asked that question and could not come up with one single mistake that he had made. And what I did with this ad is I took that press conference, just his response to being asked whether or not he'd made a mistake.

And I pointed out a number of mistakes that I thought he had made: the fact that we've -- 3.8 million people have lost their health insurance; almost a million people have lost their jobs; and over 6,000 people are dead or wounded in Iraq.

These are grave mistakes, and we have a president who's unwilling to admit to any mistakes.

BLITZER: But do you understand, Rob, why so many Americans so strongly believe this president is better equipped to protect them from al Qaeda, from terror, to make sure their kids are safe and secure? Do you understand why they have more confidence in this president than John Kerry?

REINER: You know, quite frankly, I don't. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, for a long, long time people were frightened to death of what happened on 9/11, and rightly so. This president had the bully pulpit and scared the country to death and perpetrated a lot of untruths, lies, misleading the country into war.

Up until recently, we had -- almost a half of America believed that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11. This is astounding to me. We have a president who continues to believe, knowing what we know now, that there was no connection to 9/11, there were no weapons of mass destruction, there was no connection to al Qaeda, that he would have still would have gone to war in Iraq.

Now, this is beyond bad judgment. This is, you know, a person who's out of touch with reality.

BLITZER: Rob, you acknowledge that Saddam Hussein was a butcher and an evil, evil man.

REINER: Yes. No question about it.

BLITZER: But the theory being that a lot of Republicans are saying he may not have had anything to do with 9/11, but he was still worthy of being disposed of just along the lines that Adolf Hitler had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, but the U.S. went to war against Japan and Germany after Pearl Harbor.

REINER: But Japan was allied with Germany in fighting that war. And I would ask this question to the American people: If you were told that an evil dictator had no connection to 9/11, had no weapons of mass destruction, and had no connection to terrorist groups like al Qaeda, would you have agreed to go to war against this sovereign nation?

I don't think if it was presented to the American public that way they would have agreed to go to war. As a matter of fact, I know they wouldn't. We are there now and we have to do the best we can, but there's no way the American public would have bought that.

BLITZER: Rob Reiner, Ron Silver, the actor, is going to be on this program later this hour. He was a long-time Democrat, long-time liberal, but he totally disagrees you when it comes to the war on terror, the war in Iraq. As a result, he has come out strongly in favor of President Bush's reelection.

What do you want to say to someone like him, someone like former mayor of New York Ed Koch who say, you know. there are a lot of other important issues, but nothing as is important as America's security?

REINER: Nothing is as important as American security. And that's why it is so important to have a president who can prosecute this war and the complexities of this war in using intellectual curiosity, understanding all the moving parts and not making moves that will exacerbate the terrorists, that will cause more terrorists in this world.

We need allies. We don't need a president that drives our allies away from us. We need to all pull together. After 9/11, as you remember, the French ran a headline "We are all Americans." Everyone was together in fighting this war on terrorism.

But what's happened in the last year-and-a-half, we've seen allies disappear. We've seen the world turn against us, and we've created a haven for terrorism in Iraq where there wasn't one before.

Yes, we need to be safe, but we need a president who can prosecute this war intelligently.

Rob Reiner, the film director, the actor, the political activist, thanks very much for joining us.

REINER: Thanks for having me, Wolf.

BLITZER: And one man gaining some ground in a key battleground state. We have new polls straight ahead.

And laying it on the line -- what each candidate must do tonight to win next month.

Reminder of the past -- a mass grave unearthed in Iraq. Remains of women and children found, believed to be murdered by Saddam Hussein's regime.

And a CNN exclusive -- I'll speak live with Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota. He's shutting down his Capitol Hill office in Washington because of terror concerns around the U.S. election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the Arizona State University here in Tempe, Arizona, the site of tonight's third and final presidential debate. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting.

Senator Mark Dayton is a Democratic senator from Minnesota. Yesterday, he closed his Capitol Hill office in Washington until after the election, citing what he called top secret intelligence relating to national security. Senator Dayton is joining us live from Minnesota. Senator Dayton, thanks very much for joining us. How powerful was the information you received?

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: Well, it was very powerful or I wouldn't have taken the very serious action that I did. Unfortunately, it's top secret classification so I can't discuss it. I wish it would be unclassified and everyone could read it and draw their own conclusions. But to me it was the only responsible action to take since I'm not going to be in Washington to share that elevated risk with my staff.

BLITZER: But you're telling your constituents, people from Minnesota, don't come to Washington, in effect, because its too dangerous right now. Is that what you're suggesting?

DAYTON: What I said in response to that question is that I would not bring my two sons to Capitol Hill between now and the election. So I'm not going to put other people's sons and daughters at a risk that I'm not there to share myself.

And no one can predict the future. I hope and pray that I'm wrong. But the consequences of acting and being wrong pale in comparison to the consequences that would occur if I were not to act and be wrong. And I have a moral responsibility to protect the lives and the security of my staff, as well as the constituents who might be visiting my Minnesota office.

BLITZER: As far as I could tell, you're the only member of the Senate who has reached this conclusion. No one in the House of Representatives has reached this conclusion.

I want you to listen to what Republican Congressman Peter King of New York state said earlier today on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Listen, I got the same briefing he did. So did 534 other senators and congressmen. Obviously, there's high threats to the country. New York and Washington are always in the crosshairs. There's no difference now than there was a month ago or two months ago. And why he's decided to do this, either he's, again, overreacting, whether he's showboating or what, I really don't know, but it's sending a terrible signal to the country and it's really an abdication of responsibility and leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, what do you say to Peter King who says you're way overreacting?

DAYTON: Those are bravo words to make from hundreds or thousands of miles away from Washington. If we wanted to make a statement, I don't know what the congressman saw, I know what I saw and other senators read, then we should have stayed in session, as I believe we should have, right up until Election Day and made that statement ourselves to the country and to the world.

But I'm in Minnesota, the relative safety of my home state, as most members of Congress are now, between now and the election. To leave our young staffs there as human shields so we can make a statement I think is the height of irresponsibility.

BLITZER: We've spoken to Capitol Hill police, we've spoken to the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, they all make the same point: Yes, there may be a general threat out there to Washington, to New York, to other places, but there's no specific credible threat to Capitol Hill that they know of. Do you know something that they say they don't know of?

DAYTON: Well, the report I read didn't identify specific location. But the 9/11 Commission concluded that the fourth hijacked plane on that date that crashed in Pennsylvania was returning to destroy the Capitol. And al Qaeda has a history of going back to those places where it's been unsuccessful and attempting again.

Your own newscast 10 days ago reported that al Qaeda's number two, Zawahiri, on an Islamic Web site is exhorting al Qaeda operatives to attack U.S. and British interests. That was the same pronouncement that preceded the bombing in Madrid, Spain, prior to that country's election.

I can't predict the future, I don't know what the future holds, but I do know that the safety and lives of my staff are my responsibility, and I'm not going to leave them there exposed to risks that I'm not there to take myself.

BLITZER: What about the argument that you're playing into the hands of terrorists, in effect they've won because you've shut down your office in the Russell Senate Office Building?

DAYTON: Well, the national debate we're talking about is protecting the security of all Americans. I don't have that enormous responsibility.

I do have the responsibility to protect the security of my own staff. Their lives are my responsibility. For me to be leaving them in Washington, on Capitol Hill, exposed to what I consider to be an unacceptable risk, knowing what I know about the situation, not sharing that with them, leaving for the relative safety of Minnesota, I think is immoral.

And that's the basis for my decision. And to take them out of the harm's way, as I can, is my responsibility.

BLITZER: Well, I know you're making these recommendations to people from Minnesota, your staff. What about the rest of us who live in Washington who aren't privy to the sensitive classified briefings that you're getting, the top secret information, what should we do?

DAYTON: I wouldn't advise anyone to visit Capitol Hill who wasn't required to do so between now and the election.

BLITZER: You wouldn't advise them to leave Capitol Hill or visit Capitol Hill?

DAYTON: I wouldn't advise them to visit Capitol Hill. People have to make their own decision. And, again, this is an extreme precaution that I hope and pray will prove to be unnecessary. But my two sons, I would not bring them to Capitol Hill between now and the election.

BLITZER: Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota, thanks very much for joining us, and thanks for explaining your fears, your concerns.

DAYTON: Thanks for the opportunity.

BLITZER: And our live coverage from Tempe, Arizona will continue. We are standing by for the third and final presidential debate. We heard earlier from the director Rob Reiner. Just ahead, I will speak with the actor Ron Silver. He's supporting President Bush.

Plus, this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: And I will not apologize for removing Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Tony Blair calling -- called to task over the war in Iraq in a raucous session of Parliament in London.

Plus, Eminem takes on Michael Jackson and vice versa. We will show you the video that started it all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to Tempe, Arizona, home of Arizona State University.

Getting the job done, what each presidential candidate must accomplish tonight to sway the undecided voters. We will get to this.

First, though, a check of some other stories now in the news.

The death toll for American troops in Iraq is now 1,086. Insurgents have killed six more troops since late yesterday. In the latest incident, two soldiers were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a military convoy in Mosul.

A grim discovery indeed in Iraq. American forces have exhumed a mass grave site in the northwestern part of the country. The remains of scores of people have been found, many of them believed to be the bodies of Kurdish women and children. The victims are thought to have been killed by Saddam Hussein's regime. Authorities say the evidence could help convict the captured dictator of crimes against humanity.

There will be no German soldiers in Iraq, that word today from the chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder. The German leader was responding to comments by his defense minister indicating Germany might -- might -- consider sending troops to Iraq at some point in the future. Germany has steadfastly been against the war in Iraq and Mr. Schroeder says his country's policy has not changes.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair once again in the hot seat over the war. In a noisy House of Commons session, Prime Minister Blair took responsibility for the bad prewar intelligence, but that's where he drew the line.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLAIR: What I do not in any way accept is that there was any deception of anyone. That is what has been looked into by four separate independent inquiries, and in each case that allegation has been found to be wrong. And I will not apologize for removing Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Just ahead of tonight's presidential debate here in Tempe, Arizona, John Kerry is getting a boost in some new showdown state polls. "The Chicago Tribune" and WGN-TV polled likely voters in Iowa, Minnesota Ohio, and Wisconsin, the senator leads the president in three of the four states. Let's take a look.

In Iowa, Bush is in the lead 47 percent to 45 percent. In Minnesota, Kerry has a two-point lead, 45 to 43 percent. In the key battleground state of Ohio, Kerry leads Bush 49 percent to 45 percent. And in Wisconsin, Kerry leads Bush by four percentage points, 47 percent to 43 percent. But with the polls, all of them within the sampling margin of error, the race in all those four of those states remains effectively a statistical dead heat.

For a preview of tonight's debate, let's turn to our analysts, our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield and our political analyst Carlos Watson.

Jeff, I wouldn't read too much into those polls. Would you?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: No. We are obsessed by them. They are the crack cocaine of political journalism. And we look at every jot in them as though they revealed -- where basically

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Not just us. The politicians do as well.

GREENFIELD: Absolutely, I mean the whole political community. We just report them.

But basically, what they are reporting is there are ties. The trend is mildly in Kerry's favor. And that's something that when the first debate took place, a lot of us thought might not be happening. But, yes, we have really got to take the decaf when we read these polls. They are too close. They don't mean that much.

BLITZER: So that puts a lot of pressure, though, on the president tonight to shine, Carlos?

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think so. I think the president ultimately has at least three things he wants to do tonight.

First of all, stylistically, I think he wants to come across as articulate and clear. I think one of the issues in the first debate is, he seems to kind of stumble over his words, to pause. I think that's a real issue in terms of how people perceive him in terms of being a manager and being competent.

Secondly, I think the president not only has to talk about his first-term agenda, but, Wolf, it's going to be really important to come across as having a proactive second-term agenda, something he really wants to get done, is excited about. And last but not least, frankly, the president needs to win, to use that old Al Davis phrase, just win, baby. I think that's going to be important, given that the current perception is, is that John Kerry won the first two.

BLITZER: What do you think, Jeff?

GREENFIELD: About what, Wolf?

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: About the whole thing, looking forward to tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: I am not going to ask you about the Yankees. Go ahead.

GREENFIELD: What I really -- what think is fascinating about this campaign is that each side wants to keep the focus on the other.

This is like a race or a fight in which the last guy standing wins. And so if the frame of this election is, do we want to rehire George Bush for a second term, the likely answer is no. If the frame of this question is, do you want to hire John Kerry to run the war on terror and be commander in chief, the likely answer is no.

So this is a campaign in which the more they can keep the attention on the other candidate and point out that candidate's flaws, the better they're going to be.

BLITZER: Does either one of these candidates -- I'll start with you, Jeff -- have an incentive to sort of lay back and be nice and positive, or do they both have an incentive to go for the jugular?

GREENFIELD: I think John Kerry would really benefit from turning the dial down a little bit. There's a sense about John Kerry that he orates all the time.

If there was a way in which he could fold in a little bit of humor, a little bit of more on sorrow than in anger, that would do him a world of good. The president in the last debate was very tough. And I think that was all about saying, look, I'm the commander in chief. Never mind the nice guy stuff. This is a war we're in. But I think it would be really to Kerry's advantage to stop being a senator as much and be more kind of a mensch, if I may use that term.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: You may, yes.

WATSON: You may.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Carlos is a mensch.

But go ahead, very quickly.

(CROSSTALK)

WATSON: Two things I think John Kerry needs to use, which agrees with Jeff. One, I think he needs to use anecdotes. I think to the extent that he uses a couple of really good, really evocative anecdotes tonight, I think that will serve him well.

Secondly, I think a rhetorical question. Can he frame this debate -- as Jeff said, can he frame this debate in terms of, do you want George Bush and can he put forth a question that is going to hang in the air for the next several weeks, meaning beyond the debate?

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We'll see both of you all night here tonight. We will have a lot of fun here in Tempe, Arizona.

GREENFIELD: But I'm watching the Yankee game, Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, forget about that.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: To our viewers, here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day is this: Which do you think will decide the presidential election, domestic issues, foreign policy, or neither? You can vote. Go to CNN.com/Wolf. We will have the results later this hour.

Hollywood help for the candidates. We heard from Kerry supporter Rob Reiner. Up next, the actor Ron Silver tells us why he's backing President Bush.

Also, the video that sparked a feud between Eminem and Michael Jackson, we'll show it you. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The CNN Election Express is parked here on the campus of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BLITZER: The students are excited. We're excited.

Let's hear from our next guest. Earlier, we spoke with the director Rob Reiner, a strong supporter of John Kerry. Joining us now from New York, the actor Ron Silver, a strong supporter of President Bush.

A lot of us, Ron, who have known you for many years -- and I have -- very surprised that someone who basically is a Democrat, strongly supports the Democrats on a whole range of social issues, like abortion rights for women and other women, all of a sudden, you show up at the Republican Convention at Madison Square Garden, a ringing endorsement of the president.

Tell us why.

RON SILVER, ACTOR: Well, as you know, Wolf, it wasn't all of a sudden.

Since 9/11, I've felt very strongly about this issue. On that day, 19 people with about a couple hundred thousand dollars killed 3,000 people and caused over $100 billion worth of damage. And it redefined the nature of everything that day. And what it basically said to us is that all the old rules are out. The United States is incapable of protecting its citizens, despite its power, on its own terribly.

And since that day, I have been rather consistent, I think, and I've been on your program many times, discussing about how to approach terror, how to approach this new world that we live in. And I think the president has challenged the world with a new order. And when you challenge the world with a new way of doing things and redefine everything, it invokes passionate opposition.

BLITZER: But why is it that John Kerry is wrong when he says the president squandered valuable resources in the war on terror by diverting attention from al Qaeda in Afghanistan and wasting it, in effect -- that's what the accusation is -- in Iraq?

SILVER: Well, I am not exactly sure what the latest Democratic incantation of the war in Iraq is.

But assuming it's what I have last heard, the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time, Howard Dean's position, assuming it's a diversion, which runs contrary to a lot of other statements, but if I take that as the basis, I simply don't think they understand the nature of the threat. I see the war as a war against jihadistan that goes from North Africa to the Arab-Muslim Middle East through the subcontinent, Central Asia, down through the Indonesian Archipelago.

And it's an ideological enemy. It's not defined by one place or one state player or one actor at a time. It's an ideology, like communism was, like fascism was. And containment will not work because we can't see them. Deterrents won't work because they want to die. So it requires a rethinking of everything. And the way we have done things in the past is untenable. The status quo is untenable now.

So I have been very supportive of the president's push in this direction. You know, people trying to challenge the world with an entirely new order, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Reagan, are going to invoke that opposition. And only history will tell whether they were right or not. All those presidents lost a lot of battles, but they won the war.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Ron, you are talking about preemptive strikes, the strategy of preemptive strikes.

SILVER: That's right.

BLITZER: But you could make an argument -- and you are a smart guy -- that the threat to the region, to the friends of the United States from Iran was greater than it was from Saddam Hussein.

SILVER: Well, you know, again, we're basing all our actions on intelligence. And we have seen how faulty intelligence can be.

I accept that there were no WMD. I don't know that Iraqi generals understood there were no WMD, or even Saddam Hussein. So it's pretty confusing. But the intelligence right now seems to point to Iran as being a big threat, no question about it. But in Iran, the president is relying on the E.U. They're doing a lot of talking. In North Korea, the president is doing what everybody suggests you do, which is multilateral talks and letting China take the lead on that.

So I think it's a little more, if you will forgive the expression, nuanced, the administration approach, than they're given credit for. But the question I have for...

BLITZER: Nuanced being a sensitive word right now.

Let's just wrap it up. I want to find out how your colleagues, your friends in Hollywood and New York are reacting, because, as you well know, the general consensus is that most of them strongly support -- liberals strongly support the Democratic challenger to the president. How are they treating you?

SILVER: Oh, they are treating me very well. I will be coming out to Arizona, entering the Witness Protection Program any day now. So if you're still there, if you would like to have dinner with me, that would be terrific.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: Ron Silver, an old friend, we are both graduates of the State University of New York at Buffalo.

SILVER: We are, indeed. Go, U.B. BLITZER: We go way, way, way back.

Ron Silver, thanks very much for joining us.

SILVER: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Making a joke out of the king of pop. Michael Jackson fires back at Eminem. Will the rap artist's new music video be pulled from the networks? We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Eminem is no Mr. Nice Guy and he's pulling no punches when it comes to fellow super star Michael Jackson. But one network is pulling Eminem's new video.

Let's go live to CNN's Brian Todd in Washington -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this controversy has been brewing for a couple of weeks, since Eminem's new video came out. It's now reached a point where two superstars are fighting in public and at least three networks are caught in the middle.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Eminem tries to spin it even as he's singing it.

EMINEM, SINGER (singing): I've done touched on everything but little boys. That's not a stab at Michael. That's just a metaphor. I'm just psycho.

TODD: The rap star claims he's not insulting Michael Jackson, at least in that part of his new video, "Just Lose It." But at other places, there's no getting around it.

Near the end, the Michael Jackson character played by Eminem loses his nose, clearly a reference to the king of pop's legendary plastic surgery. And this scene at the very end has infuriated Jackson. Appearing on a Los Angeles radio program, Jackson said -- quote -- "I am very angry at Eminem's depiction of me in his video. I feel that it is outrageous and disrespectful."

As he prepares to defend himself against child molestation charges, Jackson is now asking all networks to pull Eminem's video. We contacted the major music video networks. Officials at MTV says they won't pull the video. "Just Lose It" hasn't aired on VH-1 yet, but officials there tell us they are sticking to their plan to begin running it next Monday. Black Entertainment Television has complied with Jackson and pulled the video this week, citing a longstanding relationship with the star and a phone call.

MICHAEL LEWELLEN, BLACK ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION: He did reach out personally over the weekend, had a conversation with BET founder and CEO Robert Johnson to raise his concern about the video.

TODD: The reaction from Eminem's record label, Interscope: "We are sorry that BET made this decision."

BET reaches 79 million households. And officials there say, Eminem has great appeal to their viewers. Is the network jeopardizing its relationship with one star to pander to another?

LEWELLEN: I think pandering is definitely not the right term. I think something that's important here is that this is not an indictment of Eminem's entire body of work.

TODD: In that body of work, Eminem has parodied Jackson before in video and on a balcony. The ironies here, Jackson's own career skyrocketed in the early '80s thanks in part to controversial cutting- edge videos. And one of the network's defying Jackson's request to pull Eminem, MTV, owes much of its success to Michael Jackson's videos.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Now, I spoke with one of Michael Jackson's representatives this afternoon. She told me Jackson is disappointed with MTV and says she cannot say at this point whether Jackson will take any legal action against anyone -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd reporting -- thanks, Brian, very much.

We will have the results of our Web question of the day. That's coming up next.

First, though, a look at some other headlines making news around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): At a conference in Japan, Iraqi officials called on other countries to live up to their promises to provide reconstruction aid. The international community pledged almost $14 billion in aid at a similar conference last year. But many countries are balking at making good on their pledges until Iraq becomes more peaceful.

Terror drill. South Koreans staged a terror exercise in Seoul. SWAT teams dropped from helicopters and scaled down a 42-floor office tower.

Hot spot. One hundred-degree temperatures in Australia are blamed for dozens of wildfires, some threatening residential areas. Firefighters in Australia's New South Wales state were busy around the clock.

TLC. Also in Australia, this baby koala is getting tender, loving care. When his mother got sick, he had to be removed from her pouch prematurely and raised by a surrogate human mother. Right now, his only other companion is a stuffed doll. But zookeepers hope to reunite him with his real mother as soon as possible.

And that's our look around the world. (END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you are weighing in our Web question of the day; 40 percent of you say domestic issues, 42 percent foreign policy, 18 percent neither. Remember, it's not a scientific poll.

Please stay with CNN for special coverage of tonight's final presidential debate here at Arizona State University. I will be back, along with Anderson Cooper, Paula Zahn, the entire CNN election team. Our prime-time coverage begins in one hour, 7:090 Eastern.

Until then, thanks for joining us.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" coming up next.

Let's hear it from these students right now.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired October 13, 2004 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. Final showdown. Debate number one went to Kerry and helped. Debate number two polls say Kerry won but didn't really help. Will undecided voters make up their minds after tonight. Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Domestic dispute. Jobs, taxes, and health care, the final debate just hours away. Celebrity activists square off. Director Rob Reiner and actor Ron Silver.

CNN exclusive, top secret terror fears. I will go one on one with the U.S. senator who closed his Capitol Hill office.

The flu. First the shortage, now the price gouging. I will speak with CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding.

Eminem and M.J. Slim Shady takes a poke and the king of pop takes offense.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Live from Tempe, Arizona, site of the third and final presidential debate. This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

BLITZER: It's the last big showdown before the election, now just 20 days away and four hours from now, President George W. Bush and Senator John F. Kerry will go head to head here in Tempe, Arizona in their third and final presidential debate. We are following both candidates. Our White House correspondent Dana Bash is with the Bush campaign. Our senior political correspondent Candy Crowley is with the Kerry campaign. Let's start with Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, despite the fact that the White House had told us that the president would only have some informal meetings to prepare for his debate. Now the White House communications director Dan Bartlett says that the president actually had very formal debate prep sessions, two of them actually. One last night and one this morning. Not only that he's been practicing in all of his downtime, in his motorcade, on the plane, practicing his lines, boning up on the issues. It underscores just how critical the Bush team thinks tonight is going to be.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): The Bush campaign frames the strategy for round three in simple terms.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think government ought to help people realize their dreams, not tell them how to live their lives.

BASH: Use the 90-minute focus on domestic issues to lay out what they call a fundamental difference in philosophy between the candidates.

MATTHEW DOWD, BUSH CAMPAIGN SR. STRATEGIST: On the one hand somebody that thinks big government and high taxes is the way to go and a president who thinks a smaller government with people having more control and lower taxes is the way to go.

BASH: Mr. Bush's goals: question the senator's credibility by saying his spending proposals and promise to shrink the deposit don't add up. Zero in on parts of Kerry's 20-year record to argue he's a liberal.

BUSH: It's the crux of his health care policy.

BASH: And point to big proposals like health care as proof the senator wants to expand the government while Mr. Bush would give private incentives to expand coverage.

But polls show the senator has an advantage with voters on key domestic issues. Bush aides privately admit they have a high hurdle in turning that around.

In the dizzying world of predebate spin, Bush aides are hoping what they see as Team Kerry's overconfidence about a 2-0 debate record will backfire.

NICOLLE DEVENISH, BUSH COMM. DIRECTOR: The Kerry campaign is reminding me of a peacock over the last 10 days. They are very interested in admiring their feathers, really talking up their performance in the debate.

BASH: But some Republicans are concerned Senator Kerry is getting what the first president Bush dubbed "the big mo." Momentum and this president needs a win.

DAVID GERGEN, FMR. WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Can Kerry break out, can he open up? But if he were to win a third time, conceivably he can do that but I can guarantee you if he wins tonight, it will give him enough enthusiasm and fire in his campaign that it will go to the end in a very close race.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And the Bush spin now is they always thought it would be a close race, but even inside the Bush camp they privately admit Kerry has what one aide called "mini mo" in talking about the momentum. And they know that tonight is an important time to try to stop that. BLITZER: Dana Bash, thanks. Let's check in with the Kerry campaign. For that we go to our senior political correspondent Candy Crowley. How upbeat, Candy, is the Democratic presidential nominee?

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, very upbeat. He left New Mexico this morning where he's been studying. Said he felt great. But I have to tell you interesting listening to Dana because one of the things that one of his strategists was quick to point out was we're not overconfident. So they clearly don't want to appear as we heard right after the St. Louis debate John Kerry went to Ohio and said well, we're now 2-0. So insofar as that has sunk into the Kerry campaign, they are now saying we are not overconfident here but we want to talk about the issues. We believe the issues are on our side. So they are trying to take a little of that swagger out of what has been happening over the last couple of debates.

BLITZER: Candy Crowley reporting for us. Thank you, Candy, very much. We will have much more coming up on this program on this third and final presidential debate. Much more coming up indeed throughout the night here on CNN. Anderson Cooper starts our prime-time coverage, 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Paula Zahn at 8 p.m. I will be back with the entire CNN election team 8:30 for our special predebate program, "The Final Presidential Debate." 90 minutes begins 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

Let's turn now to a very important story. The national flu vaccine shortage. CNN's Fred Katayama has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRED KATAYAMA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): People are lining up for hours in supermarkets and pharmacies to get hard to find flu shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do think people would be willing to spend more than average for a flu vaccine.

KATAYAMA: But just how much more? Profiteers are trying to take advantage of the flu shot shortage. More than half of the hospital pharmacies responding to a survey reported they have been offered flu vaccine at prices that would make one sick.

Ranging from four to as many as ten times the original price. And Kansas' attorney general has sued a Florida vendor charging that Medstat jacked up its price from $85 to $900 a vial.

Medstat's attorney was not available for comment.

KASEY THOMSPON, AMER. SOCIETY OF HEALTH SYSTEM PHARMACISTS: There is significant opportunistic pricing that's going on in the market right now which could equate to lesser access by those patients that are most vulnerable to getting the flu and suffering the consequences of the flu.

KATAYAMA: Louise Wise (ph) is going from drugstore to drugstore searching for a shot. So far no luck. I will keep on checking the senior centers and then I'll probably stop at every drug store I find. But it looks as though it's only by accident that you would find one.

KATAYAMA: CNN has learned Rite-Aid will cut short its flu clinic this Sunday. Walgreens and CVS have already ended their clinics. The CDC calls this price gouging an immoral thing.

Fred Katayama, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And joining us now from Atlanta is Dr. Julie Gerberding, the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Dr. Gerberding, thanks very much for joining us. Immoral, but is it illegal to price gouge at a time like this?

DR. JULIE GERBERDING, CDC: Well, in fact in some states, it certainly is illegal and we are looking into the legality in the other states that haven't quite clarified their regulations.

In any case, I think it is reprehensible to take advantage of people at a time when we are working so hard to get vaccine out to people who need it the most.

BLITZER: The federal government can't get involved directly when they hear of price gouging, this is a state issue? Is that what you are saying?

GERBERDING: Yes, in general states have the jurisdiction over this kind of pricing. But certainly at the federal government level we are interested in knowing where it's happening, we're working hard with our partners to identify particularly egregious examples and we're making sure that the appropriate health officials are aware of it.

BLITZER: It is reprehensible, but how widespread, based on the initial reports you are getting, is it?

GERBERDING: Well, unfortunately, we are getting more and more reports every day. So my fear is that there are certain organizations out there, broadly canvassing pharmacies and other locations in the states with these kinds of price increases. Hopefully the sources are limited to just a few, but at any rate it is certainly creating yet another challenge for this very difficult flu season.

BLITZER: So what has happened over the past few days? Is there some light at the end of this tunnel? Is the crisis going to be resolved soon?

GERBERDING: The first thing to know is that we are at the very beginning of the flu season and we can't predict whether this could be a mild season or a more severe than usual season. Yesterday we were able to work with Adventis to identify an allocation scheme for another 14 million doses of vaccine which will be rolling out over the next several weeks. We have 8 million more doses including about 4.5 million in the CDC stockpile that we'll be using to target areas where there really is a gap between the people who need the vaccine and those who have already gotten it.

BLITZER: I suspect that my mother is in the same kind of predicament that a lot of older people are in. She lives in southern Florida. She's 82 years old. She's been calling around trying to get a flu shot. She simply can't find a doctor who has any supplies. What should she do?

GERBERDING: This is such a challenging time and we're sorry that people are in this difficult situation. I think there are two words. One is patience. Because there are more doses coming and the local health officials and the state health officials are working hard to identify them and let people know where they can find vaccine.

But also persistence -- it is going to take extra effort, and we'll have more inconvenience this year in trying to find those flu doses. We're doing everything we can, and we'll be stepping up some hotlines and some other information resources to help people out.

BLITZER: Dr. Gerberding, a lot of people are going to try to pin blame for this crisis -- right now I think it's fair to call it a crisis. Who should accept responsibility for this crisis?

GERBERDING: Well, the big problem is that we simply have a fragile vaccination capability in this country. I think in the short run, we are always in the difficult dilemma of wanting to get as many people vaccinated as possible, but never being entirely sure how bad the flu season is going to be, how many people will actually get vaccinated, and what the supply will be on a year-to-year basis.

So, I certainly am taking some of the accountability for this, because I feel like if we had a more robust immunization program and if CDC had focused more attention on its fragility, maybe we could have moved things faster in the direction where we wouldn't have these supply problems.

BLITZER: Dr. Julie Gerberding, stepping up to the plate as she always does. Thanks very much, Dr. Gerberding. Let's hope this problem is resolved very, very quickly. Lots of lives are at stake -- that's right, I assume. How many lives potentially are at stake in this matter?

GERBERDING: Well, you know, each year about 36,000 people die of influenza and about 200,000 are hospitalized. What we're hoping this year is by targeting the people most at risk for those serious complications, we'll be able to save lives and do the very best we can to get the people who need the vaccine fast.

BLITZER: Dr. Gerberding, thank you very much.

And our live coverage of the final presidential debate will continue from here in Tempe with a look at celebrity endorsements. The director, Rob Reiner standing by. I'll speak with him. He's a Kerry supporter. He'll join me live. And we'll also hear from a Bush supporter, the actor Ron Silver. He's coming up later. Plus, terror fears on Capitol Hill. I'll speak live with the senator who's decided to close his office on Capitol Hill until the election is over. My exclusive interview with Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota. That's coming up here this hour.

And later, Eminem imitating Michael Jackson, but this is no form of flattery. Now, the King of Pop is fighting right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The CNN Election Express bus made a stop here at beautiful Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. That's the site of tonight's third and final presidential debate.

Welcome back. Both presidential candidates have some Hollywood heavy hitters in their corner. Later this hour, I'll speak live with the actor Ron Silver, who's backing President Bush.

But right now, Director Rob Reiner is joining us from Los Angeles. He's strongly supporting John Kerry -- in fact, has just made a TV ad for moveon.org's Political Action Committee. Rob, thanks very much for joining us.

Let me play a little...

ROB REINER, DIRECTOR/POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Thanks for having me, Wolf.

BLITZER: ... from the ad you just put out. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REINER: Four years ago, a mistake was made. On November 2, we can correct that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: MoveOn PAC is responsible for the content of this advertisement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, so tell our viewers why you've decided from directing -- getting involved directly in movies and films to putting together this moveon.org ad.

REINER: Well, I though it was important to point out that this president has been a disaster for our country. He's made a number of mistakes and has not admitted them.

We saw recently in the last debate, one of the people at the town hall meeting asked him to list three of the mistakes he had made, and he couldn't mention any.

As you remember, back at his April press conference, he was also asked that question and could not come up with one single mistake that he had made. And what I did with this ad is I took that press conference, just his response to being asked whether or not he'd made a mistake.

And I pointed out a number of mistakes that I thought he had made: the fact that we've -- 3.8 million people have lost their health insurance; almost a million people have lost their jobs; and over 6,000 people are dead or wounded in Iraq.

These are grave mistakes, and we have a president who's unwilling to admit to any mistakes.

BLITZER: But do you understand, Rob, why so many Americans so strongly believe this president is better equipped to protect them from al Qaeda, from terror, to make sure their kids are safe and secure? Do you understand why they have more confidence in this president than John Kerry?

REINER: You know, quite frankly, I don't. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, for a long, long time people were frightened to death of what happened on 9/11, and rightly so. This president had the bully pulpit and scared the country to death and perpetrated a lot of untruths, lies, misleading the country into war.

Up until recently, we had -- almost a half of America believed that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11. This is astounding to me. We have a president who continues to believe, knowing what we know now, that there was no connection to 9/11, there were no weapons of mass destruction, there was no connection to al Qaeda, that he would have still would have gone to war in Iraq.

Now, this is beyond bad judgment. This is, you know, a person who's out of touch with reality.

BLITZER: Rob, you acknowledge that Saddam Hussein was a butcher and an evil, evil man.

REINER: Yes. No question about it.

BLITZER: But the theory being that a lot of Republicans are saying he may not have had anything to do with 9/11, but he was still worthy of being disposed of just along the lines that Adolf Hitler had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, but the U.S. went to war against Japan and Germany after Pearl Harbor.

REINER: But Japan was allied with Germany in fighting that war. And I would ask this question to the American people: If you were told that an evil dictator had no connection to 9/11, had no weapons of mass destruction, and had no connection to terrorist groups like al Qaeda, would you have agreed to go to war against this sovereign nation?

I don't think if it was presented to the American public that way they would have agreed to go to war. As a matter of fact, I know they wouldn't. We are there now and we have to do the best we can, but there's no way the American public would have bought that.

BLITZER: Rob Reiner, Ron Silver, the actor, is going to be on this program later this hour. He was a long-time Democrat, long-time liberal, but he totally disagrees you when it comes to the war on terror, the war in Iraq. As a result, he has come out strongly in favor of President Bush's reelection.

What do you want to say to someone like him, someone like former mayor of New York Ed Koch who say, you know. there are a lot of other important issues, but nothing as is important as America's security?

REINER: Nothing is as important as American security. And that's why it is so important to have a president who can prosecute this war and the complexities of this war in using intellectual curiosity, understanding all the moving parts and not making moves that will exacerbate the terrorists, that will cause more terrorists in this world.

We need allies. We don't need a president that drives our allies away from us. We need to all pull together. After 9/11, as you remember, the French ran a headline "We are all Americans." Everyone was together in fighting this war on terrorism.

But what's happened in the last year-and-a-half, we've seen allies disappear. We've seen the world turn against us, and we've created a haven for terrorism in Iraq where there wasn't one before.

Yes, we need to be safe, but we need a president who can prosecute this war intelligently.

Rob Reiner, the film director, the actor, the political activist, thanks very much for joining us.

REINER: Thanks for having me, Wolf.

BLITZER: And one man gaining some ground in a key battleground state. We have new polls straight ahead.

And laying it on the line -- what each candidate must do tonight to win next month.

Reminder of the past -- a mass grave unearthed in Iraq. Remains of women and children found, believed to be murdered by Saddam Hussein's regime.

And a CNN exclusive -- I'll speak live with Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota. He's shutting down his Capitol Hill office in Washington because of terror concerns around the U.S. election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the Arizona State University here in Tempe, Arizona, the site of tonight's third and final presidential debate. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting.

Senator Mark Dayton is a Democratic senator from Minnesota. Yesterday, he closed his Capitol Hill office in Washington until after the election, citing what he called top secret intelligence relating to national security. Senator Dayton is joining us live from Minnesota. Senator Dayton, thanks very much for joining us. How powerful was the information you received?

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: Well, it was very powerful or I wouldn't have taken the very serious action that I did. Unfortunately, it's top secret classification so I can't discuss it. I wish it would be unclassified and everyone could read it and draw their own conclusions. But to me it was the only responsible action to take since I'm not going to be in Washington to share that elevated risk with my staff.

BLITZER: But you're telling your constituents, people from Minnesota, don't come to Washington, in effect, because its too dangerous right now. Is that what you're suggesting?

DAYTON: What I said in response to that question is that I would not bring my two sons to Capitol Hill between now and the election. So I'm not going to put other people's sons and daughters at a risk that I'm not there to share myself.

And no one can predict the future. I hope and pray that I'm wrong. But the consequences of acting and being wrong pale in comparison to the consequences that would occur if I were not to act and be wrong. And I have a moral responsibility to protect the lives and the security of my staff, as well as the constituents who might be visiting my Minnesota office.

BLITZER: As far as I could tell, you're the only member of the Senate who has reached this conclusion. No one in the House of Representatives has reached this conclusion.

I want you to listen to what Republican Congressman Peter King of New York state said earlier today on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: Listen, I got the same briefing he did. So did 534 other senators and congressmen. Obviously, there's high threats to the country. New York and Washington are always in the crosshairs. There's no difference now than there was a month ago or two months ago. And why he's decided to do this, either he's, again, overreacting, whether he's showboating or what, I really don't know, but it's sending a terrible signal to the country and it's really an abdication of responsibility and leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, what do you say to Peter King who says you're way overreacting?

DAYTON: Those are bravo words to make from hundreds or thousands of miles away from Washington. If we wanted to make a statement, I don't know what the congressman saw, I know what I saw and other senators read, then we should have stayed in session, as I believe we should have, right up until Election Day and made that statement ourselves to the country and to the world.

But I'm in Minnesota, the relative safety of my home state, as most members of Congress are now, between now and the election. To leave our young staffs there as human shields so we can make a statement I think is the height of irresponsibility.

BLITZER: We've spoken to Capitol Hill police, we've spoken to the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, they all make the same point: Yes, there may be a general threat out there to Washington, to New York, to other places, but there's no specific credible threat to Capitol Hill that they know of. Do you know something that they say they don't know of?

DAYTON: Well, the report I read didn't identify specific location. But the 9/11 Commission concluded that the fourth hijacked plane on that date that crashed in Pennsylvania was returning to destroy the Capitol. And al Qaeda has a history of going back to those places where it's been unsuccessful and attempting again.

Your own newscast 10 days ago reported that al Qaeda's number two, Zawahiri, on an Islamic Web site is exhorting al Qaeda operatives to attack U.S. and British interests. That was the same pronouncement that preceded the bombing in Madrid, Spain, prior to that country's election.

I can't predict the future, I don't know what the future holds, but I do know that the safety and lives of my staff are my responsibility, and I'm not going to leave them there exposed to risks that I'm not there to take myself.

BLITZER: What about the argument that you're playing into the hands of terrorists, in effect they've won because you've shut down your office in the Russell Senate Office Building?

DAYTON: Well, the national debate we're talking about is protecting the security of all Americans. I don't have that enormous responsibility.

I do have the responsibility to protect the security of my own staff. Their lives are my responsibility. For me to be leaving them in Washington, on Capitol Hill, exposed to what I consider to be an unacceptable risk, knowing what I know about the situation, not sharing that with them, leaving for the relative safety of Minnesota, I think is immoral.

And that's the basis for my decision. And to take them out of the harm's way, as I can, is my responsibility.

BLITZER: Well, I know you're making these recommendations to people from Minnesota, your staff. What about the rest of us who live in Washington who aren't privy to the sensitive classified briefings that you're getting, the top secret information, what should we do?

DAYTON: I wouldn't advise anyone to visit Capitol Hill who wasn't required to do so between now and the election.

BLITZER: You wouldn't advise them to leave Capitol Hill or visit Capitol Hill?

DAYTON: I wouldn't advise them to visit Capitol Hill. People have to make their own decision. And, again, this is an extreme precaution that I hope and pray will prove to be unnecessary. But my two sons, I would not bring them to Capitol Hill between now and the election.

BLITZER: Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota, thanks very much for joining us, and thanks for explaining your fears, your concerns.

DAYTON: Thanks for the opportunity.

BLITZER: And our live coverage from Tempe, Arizona will continue. We are standing by for the third and final presidential debate. We heard earlier from the director Rob Reiner. Just ahead, I will speak with the actor Ron Silver. He's supporting President Bush.

Plus, this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: And I will not apologize for removing Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Tony Blair calling -- called to task over the war in Iraq in a raucous session of Parliament in London.

Plus, Eminem takes on Michael Jackson and vice versa. We will show you the video that started it all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to Tempe, Arizona, home of Arizona State University.

Getting the job done, what each presidential candidate must accomplish tonight to sway the undecided voters. We will get to this.

First, though, a check of some other stories now in the news.

The death toll for American troops in Iraq is now 1,086. Insurgents have killed six more troops since late yesterday. In the latest incident, two soldiers were killed in a suicide bomb attack on a military convoy in Mosul.

A grim discovery indeed in Iraq. American forces have exhumed a mass grave site in the northwestern part of the country. The remains of scores of people have been found, many of them believed to be the bodies of Kurdish women and children. The victims are thought to have been killed by Saddam Hussein's regime. Authorities say the evidence could help convict the captured dictator of crimes against humanity.

There will be no German soldiers in Iraq, that word today from the chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder. The German leader was responding to comments by his defense minister indicating Germany might -- might -- consider sending troops to Iraq at some point in the future. Germany has steadfastly been against the war in Iraq and Mr. Schroeder says his country's policy has not changes.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair once again in the hot seat over the war. In a noisy House of Commons session, Prime Minister Blair took responsibility for the bad prewar intelligence, but that's where he drew the line.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLAIR: What I do not in any way accept is that there was any deception of anyone. That is what has been looked into by four separate independent inquiries, and in each case that allegation has been found to be wrong. And I will not apologize for removing Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Just ahead of tonight's presidential debate here in Tempe, Arizona, John Kerry is getting a boost in some new showdown state polls. "The Chicago Tribune" and WGN-TV polled likely voters in Iowa, Minnesota Ohio, and Wisconsin, the senator leads the president in three of the four states. Let's take a look.

In Iowa, Bush is in the lead 47 percent to 45 percent. In Minnesota, Kerry has a two-point lead, 45 to 43 percent. In the key battleground state of Ohio, Kerry leads Bush 49 percent to 45 percent. And in Wisconsin, Kerry leads Bush by four percentage points, 47 percent to 43 percent. But with the polls, all of them within the sampling margin of error, the race in all those four of those states remains effectively a statistical dead heat.

For a preview of tonight's debate, let's turn to our analysts, our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield and our political analyst Carlos Watson.

Jeff, I wouldn't read too much into those polls. Would you?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: No. We are obsessed by them. They are the crack cocaine of political journalism. And we look at every jot in them as though they revealed -- where basically

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Not just us. The politicians do as well.

GREENFIELD: Absolutely, I mean the whole political community. We just report them.

But basically, what they are reporting is there are ties. The trend is mildly in Kerry's favor. And that's something that when the first debate took place, a lot of us thought might not be happening. But, yes, we have really got to take the decaf when we read these polls. They are too close. They don't mean that much.

BLITZER: So that puts a lot of pressure, though, on the president tonight to shine, Carlos?

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think so. I think the president ultimately has at least three things he wants to do tonight.

First of all, stylistically, I think he wants to come across as articulate and clear. I think one of the issues in the first debate is, he seems to kind of stumble over his words, to pause. I think that's a real issue in terms of how people perceive him in terms of being a manager and being competent.

Secondly, I think the president not only has to talk about his first-term agenda, but, Wolf, it's going to be really important to come across as having a proactive second-term agenda, something he really wants to get done, is excited about. And last but not least, frankly, the president needs to win, to use that old Al Davis phrase, just win, baby. I think that's going to be important, given that the current perception is, is that John Kerry won the first two.

BLITZER: What do you think, Jeff?

GREENFIELD: About what, Wolf?

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: About the whole thing, looking forward to tonight.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: I am not going to ask you about the Yankees. Go ahead.

GREENFIELD: What I really -- what think is fascinating about this campaign is that each side wants to keep the focus on the other.

This is like a race or a fight in which the last guy standing wins. And so if the frame of this election is, do we want to rehire George Bush for a second term, the likely answer is no. If the frame of this question is, do you want to hire John Kerry to run the war on terror and be commander in chief, the likely answer is no.

So this is a campaign in which the more they can keep the attention on the other candidate and point out that candidate's flaws, the better they're going to be.

BLITZER: Does either one of these candidates -- I'll start with you, Jeff -- have an incentive to sort of lay back and be nice and positive, or do they both have an incentive to go for the jugular?

GREENFIELD: I think John Kerry would really benefit from turning the dial down a little bit. There's a sense about John Kerry that he orates all the time.

If there was a way in which he could fold in a little bit of humor, a little bit of more on sorrow than in anger, that would do him a world of good. The president in the last debate was very tough. And I think that was all about saying, look, I'm the commander in chief. Never mind the nice guy stuff. This is a war we're in. But I think it would be really to Kerry's advantage to stop being a senator as much and be more kind of a mensch, if I may use that term.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: You may, yes.

WATSON: You may.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Carlos is a mensch.

But go ahead, very quickly.

(CROSSTALK)

WATSON: Two things I think John Kerry needs to use, which agrees with Jeff. One, I think he needs to use anecdotes. I think to the extent that he uses a couple of really good, really evocative anecdotes tonight, I think that will serve him well.

Secondly, I think a rhetorical question. Can he frame this debate -- as Jeff said, can he frame this debate in terms of, do you want George Bush and can he put forth a question that is going to hang in the air for the next several weeks, meaning beyond the debate?

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We'll see both of you all night here tonight. We will have a lot of fun here in Tempe, Arizona.

GREENFIELD: But I'm watching the Yankee game, Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, forget about that.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: To our viewers, here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day is this: Which do you think will decide the presidential election, domestic issues, foreign policy, or neither? You can vote. Go to CNN.com/Wolf. We will have the results later this hour.

Hollywood help for the candidates. We heard from Kerry supporter Rob Reiner. Up next, the actor Ron Silver tells us why he's backing President Bush.

Also, the video that sparked a feud between Eminem and Michael Jackson, we'll show it you. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The CNN Election Express is parked here on the campus of Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

BLITZER: The students are excited. We're excited.

Let's hear from our next guest. Earlier, we spoke with the director Rob Reiner, a strong supporter of John Kerry. Joining us now from New York, the actor Ron Silver, a strong supporter of President Bush.

A lot of us, Ron, who have known you for many years -- and I have -- very surprised that someone who basically is a Democrat, strongly supports the Democrats on a whole range of social issues, like abortion rights for women and other women, all of a sudden, you show up at the Republican Convention at Madison Square Garden, a ringing endorsement of the president.

Tell us why.

RON SILVER, ACTOR: Well, as you know, Wolf, it wasn't all of a sudden.

Since 9/11, I've felt very strongly about this issue. On that day, 19 people with about a couple hundred thousand dollars killed 3,000 people and caused over $100 billion worth of damage. And it redefined the nature of everything that day. And what it basically said to us is that all the old rules are out. The United States is incapable of protecting its citizens, despite its power, on its own terribly.

And since that day, I have been rather consistent, I think, and I've been on your program many times, discussing about how to approach terror, how to approach this new world that we live in. And I think the president has challenged the world with a new order. And when you challenge the world with a new way of doing things and redefine everything, it invokes passionate opposition.

BLITZER: But why is it that John Kerry is wrong when he says the president squandered valuable resources in the war on terror by diverting attention from al Qaeda in Afghanistan and wasting it, in effect -- that's what the accusation is -- in Iraq?

SILVER: Well, I am not exactly sure what the latest Democratic incantation of the war in Iraq is.

But assuming it's what I have last heard, the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time, Howard Dean's position, assuming it's a diversion, which runs contrary to a lot of other statements, but if I take that as the basis, I simply don't think they understand the nature of the threat. I see the war as a war against jihadistan that goes from North Africa to the Arab-Muslim Middle East through the subcontinent, Central Asia, down through the Indonesian Archipelago.

And it's an ideological enemy. It's not defined by one place or one state player or one actor at a time. It's an ideology, like communism was, like fascism was. And containment will not work because we can't see them. Deterrents won't work because they want to die. So it requires a rethinking of everything. And the way we have done things in the past is untenable. The status quo is untenable now.

So I have been very supportive of the president's push in this direction. You know, people trying to challenge the world with an entirely new order, Wilson, FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Reagan, are going to invoke that opposition. And only history will tell whether they were right or not. All those presidents lost a lot of battles, but they won the war.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Ron, you are talking about preemptive strikes, the strategy of preemptive strikes.

SILVER: That's right.

BLITZER: But you could make an argument -- and you are a smart guy -- that the threat to the region, to the friends of the United States from Iran was greater than it was from Saddam Hussein.

SILVER: Well, you know, again, we're basing all our actions on intelligence. And we have seen how faulty intelligence can be.

I accept that there were no WMD. I don't know that Iraqi generals understood there were no WMD, or even Saddam Hussein. So it's pretty confusing. But the intelligence right now seems to point to Iran as being a big threat, no question about it. But in Iran, the president is relying on the E.U. They're doing a lot of talking. In North Korea, the president is doing what everybody suggests you do, which is multilateral talks and letting China take the lead on that.

So I think it's a little more, if you will forgive the expression, nuanced, the administration approach, than they're given credit for. But the question I have for...

BLITZER: Nuanced being a sensitive word right now.

Let's just wrap it up. I want to find out how your colleagues, your friends in Hollywood and New York are reacting, because, as you well know, the general consensus is that most of them strongly support -- liberals strongly support the Democratic challenger to the president. How are they treating you?

SILVER: Oh, they are treating me very well. I will be coming out to Arizona, entering the Witness Protection Program any day now. So if you're still there, if you would like to have dinner with me, that would be terrific.

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: Ron Silver, an old friend, we are both graduates of the State University of New York at Buffalo.

SILVER: We are, indeed. Go, U.B. BLITZER: We go way, way, way back.

Ron Silver, thanks very much for joining us.

SILVER: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Making a joke out of the king of pop. Michael Jackson fires back at Eminem. Will the rap artist's new music video be pulled from the networks? We'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Eminem is no Mr. Nice Guy and he's pulling no punches when it comes to fellow super star Michael Jackson. But one network is pulling Eminem's new video.

Let's go live to CNN's Brian Todd in Washington -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this controversy has been brewing for a couple of weeks, since Eminem's new video came out. It's now reached a point where two superstars are fighting in public and at least three networks are caught in the middle.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Eminem tries to spin it even as he's singing it.

EMINEM, SINGER (singing): I've done touched on everything but little boys. That's not a stab at Michael. That's just a metaphor. I'm just psycho.

TODD: The rap star claims he's not insulting Michael Jackson, at least in that part of his new video, "Just Lose It." But at other places, there's no getting around it.

Near the end, the Michael Jackson character played by Eminem loses his nose, clearly a reference to the king of pop's legendary plastic surgery. And this scene at the very end has infuriated Jackson. Appearing on a Los Angeles radio program, Jackson said -- quote -- "I am very angry at Eminem's depiction of me in his video. I feel that it is outrageous and disrespectful."

As he prepares to defend himself against child molestation charges, Jackson is now asking all networks to pull Eminem's video. We contacted the major music video networks. Officials at MTV says they won't pull the video. "Just Lose It" hasn't aired on VH-1 yet, but officials there tell us they are sticking to their plan to begin running it next Monday. Black Entertainment Television has complied with Jackson and pulled the video this week, citing a longstanding relationship with the star and a phone call.

MICHAEL LEWELLEN, BLACK ENTERTAINMENT TELEVISION: He did reach out personally over the weekend, had a conversation with BET founder and CEO Robert Johnson to raise his concern about the video.

TODD: The reaction from Eminem's record label, Interscope: "We are sorry that BET made this decision."

BET reaches 79 million households. And officials there say, Eminem has great appeal to their viewers. Is the network jeopardizing its relationship with one star to pander to another?

LEWELLEN: I think pandering is definitely not the right term. I think something that's important here is that this is not an indictment of Eminem's entire body of work.

TODD: In that body of work, Eminem has parodied Jackson before in video and on a balcony. The ironies here, Jackson's own career skyrocketed in the early '80s thanks in part to controversial cutting- edge videos. And one of the network's defying Jackson's request to pull Eminem, MTV, owes much of its success to Michael Jackson's videos.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Now, I spoke with one of Michael Jackson's representatives this afternoon. She told me Jackson is disappointed with MTV and says she cannot say at this point whether Jackson will take any legal action against anyone -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd reporting -- thanks, Brian, very much.

We will have the results of our Web question of the day. That's coming up next.

First, though, a look at some other headlines making news around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): At a conference in Japan, Iraqi officials called on other countries to live up to their promises to provide reconstruction aid. The international community pledged almost $14 billion in aid at a similar conference last year. But many countries are balking at making good on their pledges until Iraq becomes more peaceful.

Terror drill. South Koreans staged a terror exercise in Seoul. SWAT teams dropped from helicopters and scaled down a 42-floor office tower.

Hot spot. One hundred-degree temperatures in Australia are blamed for dozens of wildfires, some threatening residential areas. Firefighters in Australia's New South Wales state were busy around the clock.

TLC. Also in Australia, this baby koala is getting tender, loving care. When his mother got sick, he had to be removed from her pouch prematurely and raised by a surrogate human mother. Right now, his only other companion is a stuffed doll. But zookeepers hope to reunite him with his real mother as soon as possible.

And that's our look around the world. (END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you are weighing in our Web question of the day; 40 percent of you say domestic issues, 42 percent foreign policy, 18 percent neither. Remember, it's not a scientific poll.

Please stay with CNN for special coverage of tonight's final presidential debate here at Arizona State University. I will be back, along with Anderson Cooper, Paula Zahn, the entire CNN election team. Our prime-time coverage begins in one hour, 7:090 Eastern.

Until then, thanks for joining us.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" coming up next.

Let's hear it from these students right now.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

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