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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Israeli Parliament Votes on Plan to Withdraw Troops, Settlements from Gaza; Iraq Allegations Heat Up Campaign; Iraqi Prime Minister Suggests U.S. Troops Negligent; Interview with basketball coach Phil Jackson

Aired October 26, 2004 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now, the Israeli parliament votes on the controversial plan to withdraw troops and settlements from Gaza.
Now some Israelis are threatening the life of their Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): From missing munitions to more troops and more money. Iraq allegations heat up the campaign.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mr. President, what else are you being silent about? What else are you keeping from the American people? How much more will the American people have to pay?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Senator Kerry has turned his back on pay any price, and bear any burden. He's replaced those commitments with wait and see and cut and run.

BLITZER:: Atrocity. Iraq's prime minister suggest U.S. troops were negligent. Insurgents suggest there is worse to come.

Hoping with Kobe Bryant. He has a championship ring for every finger. Last season was different. I'll speak with coaching legend Phil Jackson.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Tuesday, October 26, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Hello and welcome from New York City. Just a day after reports surfaced about the disappearance of hundreds of tons of explosives, there's new controversy over Iraq. The "Washington Post" reports that early next year, the Bush administration is likely to ask Congress for an additional $70 billion for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Meantime, the Pentagon is weighing an increase in U.S. troop strength in Iraq. More on that coming up in just a moment.

This question, though, would all of that, more U.S. troops, for example, really make a difference in Iraq? Iraq interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi stunned all of us today by seeming to blame the U.S.-led coalition for the weekend massacre of dozens of Iraqi national guard troops. He spoke of, quote, negligence, negligence on the part of multinational forces led by the United States. In Baghdad, CNN's Karl Penhaul reports the insurgents are stepping up the violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over) Roadside bombs and political slayings in a single day in a single town, Baquba in the Sunni Triangle. A local politician of the Shia (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and his bodyguard were gunned down, shot in the head. No sign of the attackers, no clue about the motive.

U.S. military say close by, this crater left when a car bomb exploded under a police car. In this, in another blast in Baquba north of Baghdad, four policemen died, six were wounded.

All this, part of what Iraqi interim government and coalition military officials say is a spike in violence during Ramadan and ahead of January elections.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through translator): You should expect an escalation of terrorist attacks in the next few days. They think if Iraq gets better, they will escalate their terrorist acts.

PENHAUL: Across the Sunni Triangle at the center of Iraq's resistance, U.S. jets pounded this house overnight Monday in Falluja. U.S. marines say they killed a top aide of terror chief Abu Musab al- Zarqawi, another effort to then resistance in the rebel-held city before a possible military assault.

The U.S. military and Iraqi government have not outlined a timetable for any attack. But patience seems to be wearing thin.

ALLAWI: Our problem is not with Falluja. This is a problem with a number of killers and terrorists who are killing the Iraqi people.

PENHAUL: A group of Falluja rebel gunmen calling themselves the Iraqi National Resistance Regiment issued a statement saying they were ready for a fight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): All the armed factions will strike all the military and civilian targets of the occupation forces and the interim government. We will attack them with weapons, with tactics they have not experienced before.

PENHAUL: Another factor to consider as the U.S. tries to assess whether a full-scale assault on Falluja will extinguish or fan the flames of war. Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: More now on the reports that the Bush administration will ask for additional troops and money for Iraq. For that, we go live to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr. Barbara, what's the latest?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, indeed, more troops for Iraq, it's on the table, but no decisions yet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): As violence continues in Iraq and January elections in that country approach, U.S. military officials are considering a temporary boost in troop levels, extra firepower during what is expected to be an even more violent period. There are currently 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. If more troops are required, it will likely come about by keeping some on duty longer than expected. Just how long, nobody knows. In September, General John Abizaid hinted more boots on the ground might be needed.

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: It's our belief those troops will be Iraqi troops and they may be additional international troops that arrive to help out as well as part of the United Nations mission. And so I don't see a need for more American troops, but we can't discount it.

STARR: Pentagon officials say they don't want to keep troops in Iraq longer than one year, but a decision whether to boost overall levels by extending tours will come in the next several weeks according to defense officials. The security situation in Iraq and the capabilities of Iraqi forces may decide it.

One option includes speeding up the deployment of the 3rd Infantry Division at Fort Stewart, Virginia. Its equipment would have to start getting packed up. Army troops now in Kuwait could also be sent in, but the most difficult decision may be whether to keep the 1st Infantry and 1st Cavalry divisions on duty longer than expected.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): And Wolf, as the war goes on the cost does continue to mount. Pentagon officials are now confirming that the administration expects to ask Congress for more money after the first of the year. So, how much is the war costing? It's now running over $1 billion a week -- Wolf.

BLITZER: What's the latest you're hearing from your sources on those missing explosives in Iraq?

STARR: The Pentagon is still trying to investigate that entire matter. The essential question on the table, when is the last time those tons of high explosives were actually known to be at the facility? When were they last seen? And if they, indeed, have been moved at some point, how possibly was such a large amount of material moved without anybody noticing? What was the security in the area? Just how many trucks would it take to move 380 tons of high explosives? Why did nobody notice? But the investigation goes on -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Lots of unanswered questions. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

Iraq is weighing heavily in these waning days of the presidential campaign. Democratic candidate John Kerry today accused President Bush of making wrong decisions on the war and then trying to hide them. Senator Kerry spoke in Wisconsin. He's now in Nevada. CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley is with him. He's joining us now live in Las Vegas -- Frank.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Senator Kerry's comments on Iraq coming during a speech that was supposed to focus on domestic security. It was another sign that the issue of Iraq will continue to play a key note through the final stanza of this campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The last of Senator John Kerry's policy speeches on homeland security. Kerry criticizing President Bush's policies on America's ports, borders and rail transportations. Kerry also claiming the president hasn't adequately funded first responders.

KERRY: We don't need a president who thinks we can't afford to fund homeland security. We need a president who believes we can't afford not to.

BUCKLEY: Bush campaign officials called the speech a series of baseless attacks and distortions, saying homeland security funding had tripled under the president. While the two tangled over domestic security, Senator Kerry also engaged Bush for a second straight day on the missing explosives in Iraq, claiming the president tried to keep the news from the American people.

KERRY: He stood in front of the American people day after day, telling us how much progress we're making in Iraq and how much safer we are under his leadership without ever mentioning the loss of these explosives.

BUCKLEY: Kerry bundling the explosives with new reports, the Bush administration intends to seek an additional $70 billion to fund the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

KERRY: Mr. President, what else are you being silent about? What else are you keeping from the American people? How much more will the American people have to pay?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY: And Senator Kerry coming here now to this Las Vegas, Nevada rally, and his appearance here, Wolf, so late in the campaign, another indication of Nevada's importance, the fact that it's no longer just a fly-over state. Both campaigns spending a lot of time and money here. Senator Kerry not the only prominent person coming here in the final days of the campaign. Later this week former president Clinton also coming to Nevada -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Frank Buckley in Las Vegas. Thank you very much. The former president of the United States Bill Clinton is back on the campaign trail once again today, campaigning for John Kerry in the battleground state of Florida. Showing no outside ill effects from his recent quadruple bypass heart surgery seven weeks ago in fact, Clinton spoke at a synagogue in Boca Raton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We both believe America has to act alone from time to time, but our philosophy is we should work with others whenever we can and act alone when we have to. Theirs is we should act alone when we can and cooperate when we have to. And that leads us to very different, practical moments with real consequences for the people of the world and the people here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Clinton returned to the stump for the first time since his surgery. That was yesterday appearing with Kerry in Philadelphia. He heads out West Friday with a stop in Nevada, then onto New Mexico on Saturday before hitting his home state of Arkansas on Sunday.

They both began the day in Wisconsin. They will both end it in Iowa. But that's about all the candidates seem to have in common. On this day, President Bush spent the day punching and parrying on the subject of Iraq. Our White House correspondent, Dana Bash, is covering the president. She's joining us now live from Dubuque -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, actually the president tried to talk about the economy today, but the missing explosives in Iraq, Senator Kerry's attack on the president about them dominated his campaign today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUSH: My policy support and strengthen the small businesses.

BASH (voice-over): The president came to Wisconsin to talk about the economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, who is responsible for the weapons missing in Iraq?

BASH: He did not answer a question about who may be responsible for 380 tons of high-level explosives missing in Iraq, but his campaign did, saying they believe John Kerry attacked the president a day earlier based on what they call questionable information.

After "The New York Times" reported the explosives missing, the senator said this.

KERRY: This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the great blunders of this administration, and the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration. BASH: NBC News later reported the 101st Airborne arrived at the site nearly a month after air strikes began. And now the reporter on the ground says the military did not see or search for explosives.

Bush officials initially bombarded reporters with e-mail, saying that report proved "The New York Times" and the senator wrong. Not so, said Camp Kerry. Regardless, the White House should have shown more urgency. The president's aides now concede there are many unanswered questions about when the explosives disappeared and who is to blame and say that's why Kerry is out of line.

DAN BARTLETT, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIR.: I think when you see the facts being contradicted in some cases through some of these reports that are coming now, it shows the weakness in their strategy down the stretch of this campaign.

BASH: Defending the president's execution of war, of course, was not the pre-planned Bush strategy of the day. That was to spin the president's Wisconsin bus tour as proof they're on offense, going to Democratic areas of a traditionally Democratic state, getting pictures like these on local news, exuding confidence.

The candidate stayed on message.

BUSH: Getting people to go to the polls, remind them of this, under the Bush administration, the farmers are doing just fine. The income is up and people are making a living.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The president was asked a second time about the explosives and, again, did not answer. But certainly the president was at least trying to show that he is paying attention. He added a line late in the afternoon to his speech where he said that the senator has no vision, just a long list of complaints -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Dana Bash on the campaign trail in Dubuque, Iowa, for us. Thank you very much.

And the results of our latest so-called "poll of polls" are now in. An average of six national polls shows Bush with a 2-point lead over John Kerry. That would be 49 percent to 47 percent. That's within the polls sampling errors. The polls, by the way, were conducted over the past four days.

Sharon's D-Day, an historic decision in Israel made just a short time ago. Why the prime minister's life though could now be in serious danger, danger coming from fellow Israelis.

Foreign fighters captured in Iraq, should the non-Iraqi prisoners be protected by the Geneva Conventions? The United States Justice Department weighs in.

War of words between two top basketball stars, Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant. We'll get the inside scoop, my interview coming up with their former coach, Phil Jackson. All of that coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Israel today may well have reached a turning point. A deeply polarized parliament voted to back the prime minister, Ariel Sharon's plan to withdraw from Gaza and a small part of the West Bank. But Mr. Sharon's own finance minister, the former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, now says he will quit the government if the matter isn't put to a nationwide referendum. Others are threatening to do the exact same thing.

Meantime, Mr. Sharon himself is facing far more serious threats. CNN's John Vause reports from Jerusalem.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Surrounded by an unprecedented number of bodyguards, 16 in all, Ariel Sharon arrived at the Israeli parliament with more than his political career on the line. His life is also in danger. This freshly sprayed graffiti in Jerusalem reads, "we killed Prime Minister Rabin, we'll kill Sharon as well."

Outside parliament, settlers and there supporters rallied, angry that the man who sent them to the occupied territories is now telling them to leave the Gaza Strip and four small settlements in the West Bank.

Sarah Zweig lives in a Gaza settlement called Gush Katif. Her sister was shot dead by Palestinian militants there two years ago. Even so, she's determined to stay with her husband and three young children.

SARAH ZWEIG, ISRAELI SETTLER: Ariel Sharon sent them Gush Katif and told them that they have to be a messenger of Israel. And now he doesn't even speak to us. He wants us just to go away.

VAUSE: The Jewish settlers in the West Bank, Like Noa Lev, there are real fears this is just beginning.

NOA LEV, ISRAELI SETTLER: It will be a model to leave other places which we certainly don't want.

VAUSE (on camera): These settlers and their supporters are warning that Ariel Sharon is tearing apart the very fabric of Israeli society, possibly bringing it closer to civil war. And while the latest opinion polls show they're very much in the minority, they say they will continue to fight the disengagement plan to the bitter end.

(voice-over): The end is now one very big step closer with Israel's parliament, the Knesset, approving the disengagement plan by a seven-vote majority, including the support of five rebellious ministers who tried at the last minute to force a national referendum, Sharon refused. But it only passed with the support of the Labor opposition.

SHIMON PERES, LABOR PARTY LEADER: I feel the decision is beginning to take shape and nobody can stop it, in spite of all the considerations and calculations. VAUSE: Almost half of Mr. Sharon's conservative Likud party voted no and the disengagement plan must still win cabinet approval before each of the four stages of withdrawal.

So, to Ariel Sharon, there are still uncertain days ahead. The protest will continue and his shaky minority government remains in danger of collapse. Regardless, on this day, at least, the man they call the bulldozer has had his way. John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Here is your chance to weigh in on this story. Our web question of the day is this. "Should Israel press ahead with its pullout plan?" You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results a little bit later this hour.

Splitting from his party. On a highly sensitive issue, President Bush makes some surprising remarks on the issue of same sex civil unions. We'll have details.

Detainees' rights. Should foreign fighters captured in Iraq be protected by international law?

And allegations against Saudi Arabia regarding the financing of terrorists inside Iraq. The top Saudi foreign policy adviser Adel al- Jubeir, he'll join me live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A surprise split between President Bush and his own party. In an interview earlier with ABC News, the president, who wants a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage said he isn't opposed to same sex civil unions. That's in direct conflict with the Republican party platform, which opposes any legal recognition or benefits for same-sex couples.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I don't think we should deny people rights to a civil union, a legal arrangement, if that's what a state chooses to do so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Republican platform opposes it.

BUSH: Well, I don't. I view the definition of marriage different from legal arrangements that enable people to have rights. I strongly believe that marriage ought to be defined as between -- a union between a man and a woman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, the Republican platform on that, as far as you're concerned on that point is wrong?

BUSH: Right.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about that and other subjects with David Gergen. He's a former adviser to presidents Nixon, Reagan, Ford, and Clinton. He is currently editor-at-large for "U.S. News & World Report." He's joining us now live from Boston. He also teaches at Harvard. He's a very busy guy. David, thanks very much for joining us. What do you make of the president going against his own party platform on this issue of same-sex civil unions?

DAVID GERGEN, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Well, I have to say, it's very surprising. It seems to come from a genuine place and a place of caring. So, it's authentic on his part, but just a week before the election when the Republicans are trying very hard to get all the evangelicals out to vote and people who oppose this and of course the president has been doing better among black conservatives partly over this issue. It's a surprise to see him now state a week before the election a view that's in contradiction to his own platform.

BLITZER: Let's talk about some other issues out there. The former president of the United States, the man you once worked for, Bill Clinton, stomping now for John Kerry. Is it going to help or hurt?

GERGEN: I don't think there's any question it's going to help this time around. If Al Gore had wrapped himself around Clinton, I think he might be president today. The huge crowd that came out in Philadelphia yesterday I think is going to have an impact in the Pennsylvania race, which of course is one of the critical battlegrounds. And now for the president to go into a few things -- it's odd, isn't it, that if Clinton (UNINTELLIGIBLE) something for him, you know, all fall, I think he would have less impact in coming out in this way. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when people feel in such a nostalgic mood about him, to come out in this way almost as a rock star, I think helps John Kerry.

And what it's adding up to, Wolf, from the president's point of view, the president maintains a continuing lead in the national polls, but the lead is narrowing some and Kerry is gaining momentum this week, not only from the Clinton visit, but from the news itself. The events have taken a bad turn for the president this week.

BLITZER: Well, some of those events like those missing explosives certainly, are bad news. But there's other events. Ayad Allawi today saying U.S.-led negligence resulted in that massacre of Iraqi troops, 50 of them or so over the weekend. There are series of bad news events for the president.

GERGEN: Mr. Allawi did his friend, George Bush, no favors today by talking about gross negligence on part of the coalition forces, which are, of course, led by United States forces. It seems to me, he could have curbed those comments and helped his friend Mr. Bush. But that kind of comment coming 24 hours after there's a whole allegation of negligence on the part of the U.S. coalition provisional authority with regard to the 360 tons of explosives, those two things coming together and then you have on top of that today the story that leaks out that the administration wants at least $70 to $75 billion in additional spending next year in Iraq and Afghanistan, partly because of this insurgency and rising oil prices, that combination, Wolf, is exactly what a challenger like John Kerry needs to pump momentum into his campaign.

On top of that, today, to have new consumer confidence numbers coming out, third month in a row in which they're down. They're down to a seven-month low altogether. That is providing as I say the ammunition that a challenger like John Kerry needs. The president needs to find a way to produce some fresh news of his own to change this momentum, because this race is tightening on him in ways that must be extremely uncomfortable and is very encouraging for the Kerry forces.

BLITZER: David Gergen as usual, thanks very much for joining us.

GERGEN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll be speaking often between now and a week from today, the election. Don't forget, by the way, to our viewers, election day only one week away from today. CNN's entire election team will be here in New York, broadcasting live from the Nasdaq Market site in the heart of Time Square. We'll use the technology of the world's largest stock market to bring you details about every candidate, every race as you've never seen before. Election day coming up one week from today from Time Square here in New York.

High profile kidnappings, attacks against coalition and Iraqi forces. It's all part of a growing Iraqi insurgency, but is money from Saudi Arabia funding these terrorist activities? One of the kingdom's top advisers, Adel al-Jubeir, he's standing by. He'll join me live.

And America first thought terrorists might have struck again, but today the final report on what caused Flight 587 to crash here in New York. The final report is released. We'll have the results. That's coming up.

And in our look around the world, the buck stops here. Find out where the dollar will be denied.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to New York. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting.

Allegations that Saudis are financing Iraqi insurgents. Now a key Saudi adviser responding to the accusations. We'll get to that.

First, though, a quick check of some other stories now in the news.

We're getting word of another apparent hostage taking in Iraq. Both the Associated Press and Reuters are reporting there is a new video allegedly showing a Japanese man being held by Abu Musab al- Zarqawi's group. According to the reports, the group threatening to kill the hostage unless Japan withdraws its troops within 48 hours. We're watching this story. We'll get some more information for you as it becomes available.

Other stories. The National Transportation Safety Board blaming pilot error for the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 in November 2001. The report says the co-pilot took an aggressive and unnecessary action in response to turbulence. The Airbus A-300 crashed moments after taking off from New York's Kennedy Airport, killing 265 people.

The defense resting in Scott Peterson's murder trial without calling the accused to the stand, but Peterson's parents did testify. The judge says the defense rebuttal will come tomorrow, with closing arguments expected Monday. Peterson is accused of looking his wife and unborn child. He could get the death penalty.

Hundreds of people attended the funeral today of a 21-year-old student accidentally killed by Boston Police during last week's Red Sox celebrations. Victoria Snelgrove was hit in the eye by a pepper spray bullet as police tried to control a rowdy crowd.

Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.

Ever since 9/11, there have been allegations that terrorists are getting help from inside Saudi Arabia. Now those accusations, once again, have resurfaced.

CNN's Zain Verjee joining us now live from the CNN Center -- Zain.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the U.S. military is indicating rebels in Iraq appear to be getting a little help from friends across the border in a country that is a U.S. ally.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE (voice-over): Iraqi insurgents need cash to kill. According to recent U.S. military intelligence report, those insurgents depend on external donors for financing attacks, attacks the U.S. believes are being bankrolled by some Saudi money.

U.S. Senator Bob Graham tried to turn it into a campaign issue on CNN's "LATE EDITION."

SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D), FLORIDA: I believe a real test of leadership for President Bush would be to let the American people know what the Saudis are doing and what he intends to do about it, if he continues as president.

VERJEE: The Pentagon believes wealthy Saudi individuals and charities sympathetic to Iraqi rebels are providing the cash. U.S. officials say that money is being funneled through Syria, a charge the Saudi government rejects. Nonetheless, the report has raised questions for some about Saudi Arabia's commitment to the U.S.-led war on terror.

GRAHAM: That was a disingenuous ally during September the 11th, has continued to take steps that are adverse to our interests in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places around the world.

VERJEE: A senior Saudi official says this view is distorted and motivated merely by election-year politics. The kingdom adds, it has taken substantive steps to combat terrorism. Congressional Republicans support that view.

SEN. RICK SANTORUM (R), PENNSYLVANIA: We have continued to try to put pressure and work with the Saudi government to try to get the insurgents within Saudi Arabia to bring them to justice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Wolf, Saudi Arabia says, if the U.S. provides specific evidence against Saudi individuals who fund Iraqi insurgents, the kingdom will crack down.

BLITZER: Zain Verjee reporting us -- Zain, thank you very much.

And joining us now from Washington to discuss these serious allegations is Adel Al-Jubeir. He is the chief Saudi foreign policy adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah.

Adel Al-Jubeir, thanks very much for joining us.

ADEL AL-JUBEIR, ADVISER TO SAUDI CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: Thank you.

BLITZER: You know Senator Bob Graham. He is a serious man, former chairman of the Intelligence Committee. You think this is election-year politicking on his part?

AL-JUBEIR: Because he's a serious man, I find it hard to believe that he actually believes what he says. The statements he has made with regard to Saudi Arabia have been irresponsible and are not borne by the facts.

We have been serious in combating terrorism because terrorism is out to murder our people and our residents. Allegations that he has made about Saudi Arabia have been debunked by the 9/11 Commission reporter. He proceeds to write a book repeating those same allegations. It seems to me that where he is getting his information, it's not very reliable.

BLITZER: But he's getting that information in part from a Defense Intelligence Agency report, a DIA report that, came out in recent days suggest that there is Saudi money, not necessarily Saudi government money, but individual Saudis are funneling money through Syria into the insurgency in Iraq. You're familiar with that?

AL-JUBEIR: Yes.

And I believe, Wolf, that the actual report put out by the Defense Intelligence Agency is slightly different from the way it was reported. When people say Saudi money has gone into Iraq, how do they know? We have taken very strong steps to ensure that our banks are solid, to make sure that our charities cannot send money abroad, to ensure that it's very difficult for people to raise cash and try to take it through couriers in Iraq.

We have stopped individuals from doing so. We have captured individuals who have tried to send money to Iraq and we have put them in jail. Our point is, we are very serious about making sure that no Saudi money or no Saudi individuals go to Iraq to fight in the insurgency, because they will come back and fight us in Riyadh.

And if anyone has any information that can help us apprehend those individuals, please provide it to us, so we can take very firm action against them.

BLITZER: Usually, these kinds of allegations are accepted by a lot of Americans, who remember that 15 of the 19 hijackers were, in fact, Saudis. How much support do you sense there is among Saudis for the insurgency against the U.S.-led coalition and the interim government in Iraq? How much support is there in Saudi Arabia for the fighting against the Iraqi government and the U.S.-led coalition?

AL-JUBEIR: Very little, Wolf, because nobody will condone the killing of the innocent.

We are fighting our own insurgency against the terrorists in Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda has set off bomb in our various cities. They have murdered our people. They have murdered residents of Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia has some sympathizers among the extremists. And I would imagine that those sympathizers who support the murder of people in Saudi Arabia would probably support the killing of people in Iraq. It's a small group. We're going after them. We're going after the mind-set. We're going to after the finances and we're making progress in rooting them out from our midst.

BLITZER: How do you know and how can you check in Saudi Arabia, especially during this wholly month of Ramadan, when Muslims give to charity, whether some of these charities are not funneling the money to the terrorists around the world or to the insurgents in Iraq?

AL-JUBEIR: The charities in Saudi Arabia are prohibited from withdrawing cash from their bank accounts. They don't even have bank cards. The charities in Saudi Arabia are prohibited from transferring funds abroad until we have a new entity in place through which all charitable contributions abroad can flow.

We have advised our citizens not to give contributions during the wholly month of Ramadan in the form of cash, but to deposit their donations in bank accounts, so we can track it. You're right. It's a very difficult challenge and we're working very, very hard to ensure that we have control over it.

And so, the charges that are being bandied about by someone like Senator Graham to say that Saudi Arabia is not doing enough or that Saudi Arabia has been negligent are really not only irresponsible, but not supported by the facts.

BLITZER: Adel Al-Jubeir joining us from Washington -- Adel, thank you very much for spending a few moments with us.

AL-JUBEIR: My pleasure.

BLITZER: Foreign fighters arrested in Iraq. Should the Geneva Conventions apply to non-Iraqi prisoners captured in Iraq? Coaching some of the NBA's best players, including Kobe Bryant. What was it like when he was accused of rape? I'll ask his former Los Angeles Lakers coach, Phil Jackson. He'll join me here.

And who would make a more delicious -- yes, delicious -- head of state? You may need some pita bread to answer that question. We'll explain.

First, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Muslim protesters burned down a school amid rising tensions in southern Thailand. Authorities arrested 1,300 protesters during one violent demonstration and packed them into badly overcrowded police trucks. Close to 80 of them died of suffocation and crushing.

Afghan election. The votes have been counted in Afghanistan and the totals show interim President Hamid Karzai winning a full five- year term. Mr. Karzai won 55 percent of the vote.

Dollars denied. Cuban businesses won't be allowed to accept U.S. dollars anymore. The Castro government says its decree will protect Cuba against U.S. economic sanctions. Observers say it will hurt Cubans who receive money from relatives living in the United States.

Gay Paris. The French gay community celebrated the launch of France's first gay television channel with a party in Paris. Pink TV, as its called, offers subscribers a mix of movies, soap operas and talk shows with a gay theme.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: In an extraordinary move, the Bush administration says foreign prisoners captured by American forces in Iraq are not necessarily entitled to the protection of the Geneva Conventions.

Our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena, is covering the story. She is joining us now live from Washington with more -- Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the opinion has definitely sparked some serious debate, but Justice and other administration officials would argue that this stance is not new and has been very consistent since the war on terror began.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): U.S. officials say about a dozen non-Iraqi fighters captured in Iraq have been secretly transferred out of the country for detention and interrogation. And despite what critics say, senior Justice Department officials argue, unlike Saddam loyalists, foreign fighters are not protected by the Geneva Conventions. Some legal experts agree.

DAVID RIVKIN, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ATTORNEY: If you have a particular set of interrogators in another country that has the expertise, has familiarity with the suspects involved or their associates, it makes perfect sense to move them.

ARENA: Senior government officials say the detainees are being handled in the same way the U.S. is handling al Qaeda fighters that have been captured. U.S. officials argue they are on solid legal ground, because these individuals were not fighting on behalf of a recognized sovereign power. Critics charge the administration is blatantly violating international law.

TOM MALINOWSKI, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: The Geneva Convention say that you can't hold people in secret. You can't hide them from the Red Cross. That kind of policy invites abuse and it invites other countries to do the same thing to captured Americans. I think it's a terrible misjudgment by the administration.

ARENA: Officials say the Justice Department issued a legal opinion in March on the matter after the transfers had already taken place. It did so at the request of the CIA and the military.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Insisting the information is highly classified, none of the officials that CNN spoke to would talk about where the detainees are being held or whether they're still in U.S. custody. And they're not ruling out similar action in the future -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena for us -- thank you very much, Kelli.

He coached nine NBA teams to glory and now he's offering some serious advice to anyone who will listen. Up next, my one-on-one talk with the former basketball coach Phil Jackson.

Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Phil Jackson coached nine NBA championship teams. Now he has a new book out about his final turbulent season with the Los Angeles Lakers, including his strained relationship with Kobe Bryant.

I spoke with Phil Jackson just a short time ago here in New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Phil Jackson, thanks very much for joining us.

PHIL JACKSON, FORMER NBA COACH: My pleasure, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's talk about your book a little bit, very blunt. You're pretty candid in there.

When you first learned about the allegations against Kobe Bryant, in the book, you write this: "Was I surprised? Yes, but not entirely. Kobe can be consumed with surprising anger, which he has displayed toward me and toward his teammates."

Give us an example.

JACKSON: Well, I think there are some situations that arose in practices and in postgame situations, some timeouts, things in which you felt the heat of his anger that was surprising.

BLITZER: That he would get physical like that, that he would...

JACKSON: Well, not so much, but vitriolic kind of comments that could come. And I think that that was a surprise.

And, you know, Kobe had had a few incidents with his teammates in which he demonstrated even physical intimidation at times.

BLITZER: So, was it a shock, though, to you that this woman, this young woman, was coming forward and accusing him of raping her?

JACKSON: Oh, well, of course. No one expects something like that to happen. Kobe had such an innocent background. When I got there, he was a 20-year-old kid living with his parents.

BLITZER: Because there's nothing in it that I could see, at least in his history, any other women coming forward along these lines and making these kind of serious allegations.

JACKSON: Oh, no. That part of it was tough.

You know what I mentioned in following that, is that Kobe's reaction to being cornered or being coached even in those situations sometimes is coming back with anger at authority. My concern was that the anger would come back at authority, whether it was the law or whether it was my authority at times, which would be difficult for us and the team.

BLITZER: Did you speak to him directly about the allegations as a coach? He comes back. He is commuting basically between Colorado and L.A. or whatever, playing games.

JACKSON: No.

BLITZER: Did you ever sit down and say, Kobe, if you want to talk about it...

JACKSON: You know, I opened up and called a couple of times and never got a return call. But the idea was, when I met him in August the first time to say, what are you doing to help with this situation? Do you have someone to talk to? Do you have a therapist you're working with?

And he told me that he had a minister in his local church that he was talking to.

BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about this. You also write in the book: "Every player would like to win a title, but only if it doesn't threaten his more pressing individual needs. In the 1960s and 70s, the players asked, where do I fit in? How can I help this team win? Now they ask, how do I get what I want?"

That sounds like such an indictment of the current generation of stars in the NBA.

JACKSON: I don't think it's an indictment about the stars as much as it is of the system.

The system that the NBA has kind of generated, it's the agents that have kind of generated this system in the last 25 years that have created this kind of a world that we live in, where there's only 10 big endorsements or so that players can get for their contracts, maybe 12 or 15 guys that really get the big endorsement money.

They want to be seen on ESPN highlights so that they can get the endorsement. There's a max cap that now goes with the contracts, negotiation with the league. There's only two or three guys that get max cap on the team. So there's always an exclusion. And players are playing for that max cap situation all the time. So it's always kind of an in-and-out situation the players have.

BLITZER: What was it like coaching Michael Jordan?

JACKSON: Well, the difference is, is that, when I went to Chicago, I was an assistant coach and I came up through the ranks with Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant being rookies. So I was kind of family when I got to coach Michael. And it was accepted. There was a relationship there.

When I came to L.A., it was as a stranger, a guy with a reputation of winning six championships. I was kind of touted as, this is the coach that can get us to the championships. So there was a difference, a big difference.

BLITZER: So it was a lot different coaching Michael Jordan than Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O'Neal, for that matter.

JACKSON: On the Lakers, right.

BLITZER: Shaquille O'Neal was a whole different kettle of worms if you will.

JACKSON: Yes.

BLITZER: What was it like coaching him?

JACKSON: Well, I say in the book, the comparison is that, when you would get after Shaq about something, doing something, he would go, like, no, I don't want to do that and he would argue about it. And then he would go find a way to do it, whether it was on the court or in his life or whatever had to happen. With Kobe, it was like, OK, and then he would probably do what he wanted to do when he got out to that situation.

BLITZER: And these guys didn't like each other, Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant?

JACKSON: Well, I'm not going to say don't like each other, just on a different path. They're on a different wavelength.

One kid was brought up in a military family in Shaq. He has a stepfather who was a military man. Kobe is brought up in an NBA family, a solid two-family home -- or two-parent home, two sisters ahead of him, living abroad most of his childhood. It was a much different upbringing. And so they had different courses they were going. They have different agendas in their life.

BLITZER: You're not coaching. Do you feel bad on the sidelines this season?

JACKSON: Not at all. I am enjoying watching the game or anticipating what it's going to be like.

BLITZER: What would it take for you to come back?

JACKSON: Boy, you got me there. I can't tell you what it would take to come back and coach. I would have to read that book again a couple of times before I do it.

BLITZER: But you might come back one of these days?

JACKSON: I'm not burning any bridges, I hope.

BLITZER: I hope so, too.

Phil Jackson, thank you very much.

JACKSON: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Good book.

JACKSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we'll have the results of our Web question of the day. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here are the results of our Web question of the day; 88 percent of you say yes; 12 percent of you say no. Should Israel press ahead with its pullout plan?

Let's take a look at our picture of the day, kosher candidates. We've seen them in cartoons and characters, on bumper stickers and T- shirts. But this is a first, George Bush and John Kerry carved in humus. It's the work of a professional sand sculptor who made this creation for the 16th annual Kosherfest trade show here in New York.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired October 26, 2004 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now, the Israeli parliament votes on the controversial plan to withdraw troops and settlements from Gaza.
Now some Israelis are threatening the life of their Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): From missing munitions to more troops and more money. Iraq allegations heat up the campaign.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mr. President, what else are you being silent about? What else are you keeping from the American people? How much more will the American people have to pay?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Senator Kerry has turned his back on pay any price, and bear any burden. He's replaced those commitments with wait and see and cut and run.

BLITZER:: Atrocity. Iraq's prime minister suggest U.S. troops were negligent. Insurgents suggest there is worse to come.

Hoping with Kobe Bryant. He has a championship ring for every finger. Last season was different. I'll speak with coaching legend Phil Jackson.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Tuesday, October 26, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Hello and welcome from New York City. Just a day after reports surfaced about the disappearance of hundreds of tons of explosives, there's new controversy over Iraq. The "Washington Post" reports that early next year, the Bush administration is likely to ask Congress for an additional $70 billion for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Meantime, the Pentagon is weighing an increase in U.S. troop strength in Iraq. More on that coming up in just a moment.

This question, though, would all of that, more U.S. troops, for example, really make a difference in Iraq? Iraq interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi stunned all of us today by seeming to blame the U.S.-led coalition for the weekend massacre of dozens of Iraqi national guard troops. He spoke of, quote, negligence, negligence on the part of multinational forces led by the United States. In Baghdad, CNN's Karl Penhaul reports the insurgents are stepping up the violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN SR. INTL. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over) Roadside bombs and political slayings in a single day in a single town, Baquba in the Sunni Triangle. A local politician of the Shia (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and his bodyguard were gunned down, shot in the head. No sign of the attackers, no clue about the motive.

U.S. military say close by, this crater left when a car bomb exploded under a police car. In this, in another blast in Baquba north of Baghdad, four policemen died, six were wounded.

All this, part of what Iraqi interim government and coalition military officials say is a spike in violence during Ramadan and ahead of January elections.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through translator): You should expect an escalation of terrorist attacks in the next few days. They think if Iraq gets better, they will escalate their terrorist acts.

PENHAUL: Across the Sunni Triangle at the center of Iraq's resistance, U.S. jets pounded this house overnight Monday in Falluja. U.S. marines say they killed a top aide of terror chief Abu Musab al- Zarqawi, another effort to then resistance in the rebel-held city before a possible military assault.

The U.S. military and Iraqi government have not outlined a timetable for any attack. But patience seems to be wearing thin.

ALLAWI: Our problem is not with Falluja. This is a problem with a number of killers and terrorists who are killing the Iraqi people.

PENHAUL: A group of Falluja rebel gunmen calling themselves the Iraqi National Resistance Regiment issued a statement saying they were ready for a fight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): All the armed factions will strike all the military and civilian targets of the occupation forces and the interim government. We will attack them with weapons, with tactics they have not experienced before.

PENHAUL: Another factor to consider as the U.S. tries to assess whether a full-scale assault on Falluja will extinguish or fan the flames of war. Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: More now on the reports that the Bush administration will ask for additional troops and money for Iraq. For that, we go live to our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr. Barbara, what's the latest?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, indeed, more troops for Iraq, it's on the table, but no decisions yet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): As violence continues in Iraq and January elections in that country approach, U.S. military officials are considering a temporary boost in troop levels, extra firepower during what is expected to be an even more violent period. There are currently 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. If more troops are required, it will likely come about by keeping some on duty longer than expected. Just how long, nobody knows. In September, General John Abizaid hinted more boots on the ground might be needed.

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: It's our belief those troops will be Iraqi troops and they may be additional international troops that arrive to help out as well as part of the United Nations mission. And so I don't see a need for more American troops, but we can't discount it.

STARR: Pentagon officials say they don't want to keep troops in Iraq longer than one year, but a decision whether to boost overall levels by extending tours will come in the next several weeks according to defense officials. The security situation in Iraq and the capabilities of Iraqi forces may decide it.

One option includes speeding up the deployment of the 3rd Infantry Division at Fort Stewart, Virginia. Its equipment would have to start getting packed up. Army troops now in Kuwait could also be sent in, but the most difficult decision may be whether to keep the 1st Infantry and 1st Cavalry divisions on duty longer than expected.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): And Wolf, as the war goes on the cost does continue to mount. Pentagon officials are now confirming that the administration expects to ask Congress for more money after the first of the year. So, how much is the war costing? It's now running over $1 billion a week -- Wolf.

BLITZER: What's the latest you're hearing from your sources on those missing explosives in Iraq?

STARR: The Pentagon is still trying to investigate that entire matter. The essential question on the table, when is the last time those tons of high explosives were actually known to be at the facility? When were they last seen? And if they, indeed, have been moved at some point, how possibly was such a large amount of material moved without anybody noticing? What was the security in the area? Just how many trucks would it take to move 380 tons of high explosives? Why did nobody notice? But the investigation goes on -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Lots of unanswered questions. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

Iraq is weighing heavily in these waning days of the presidential campaign. Democratic candidate John Kerry today accused President Bush of making wrong decisions on the war and then trying to hide them. Senator Kerry spoke in Wisconsin. He's now in Nevada. CNN national correspondent Frank Buckley is with him. He's joining us now live in Las Vegas -- Frank.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Senator Kerry's comments on Iraq coming during a speech that was supposed to focus on domestic security. It was another sign that the issue of Iraq will continue to play a key note through the final stanza of this campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The last of Senator John Kerry's policy speeches on homeland security. Kerry criticizing President Bush's policies on America's ports, borders and rail transportations. Kerry also claiming the president hasn't adequately funded first responders.

KERRY: We don't need a president who thinks we can't afford to fund homeland security. We need a president who believes we can't afford not to.

BUCKLEY: Bush campaign officials called the speech a series of baseless attacks and distortions, saying homeland security funding had tripled under the president. While the two tangled over domestic security, Senator Kerry also engaged Bush for a second straight day on the missing explosives in Iraq, claiming the president tried to keep the news from the American people.

KERRY: He stood in front of the American people day after day, telling us how much progress we're making in Iraq and how much safer we are under his leadership without ever mentioning the loss of these explosives.

BUCKLEY: Kerry bundling the explosives with new reports, the Bush administration intends to seek an additional $70 billion to fund the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

KERRY: Mr. President, what else are you being silent about? What else are you keeping from the American people? How much more will the American people have to pay?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY: And Senator Kerry coming here now to this Las Vegas, Nevada rally, and his appearance here, Wolf, so late in the campaign, another indication of Nevada's importance, the fact that it's no longer just a fly-over state. Both campaigns spending a lot of time and money here. Senator Kerry not the only prominent person coming here in the final days of the campaign. Later this week former president Clinton also coming to Nevada -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Frank Buckley in Las Vegas. Thank you very much. The former president of the United States Bill Clinton is back on the campaign trail once again today, campaigning for John Kerry in the battleground state of Florida. Showing no outside ill effects from his recent quadruple bypass heart surgery seven weeks ago in fact, Clinton spoke at a synagogue in Boca Raton.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We both believe America has to act alone from time to time, but our philosophy is we should work with others whenever we can and act alone when we have to. Theirs is we should act alone when we can and cooperate when we have to. And that leads us to very different, practical moments with real consequences for the people of the world and the people here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Clinton returned to the stump for the first time since his surgery. That was yesterday appearing with Kerry in Philadelphia. He heads out West Friday with a stop in Nevada, then onto New Mexico on Saturday before hitting his home state of Arkansas on Sunday.

They both began the day in Wisconsin. They will both end it in Iowa. But that's about all the candidates seem to have in common. On this day, President Bush spent the day punching and parrying on the subject of Iraq. Our White House correspondent, Dana Bash, is covering the president. She's joining us now live from Dubuque -- Dana.

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, actually the president tried to talk about the economy today, but the missing explosives in Iraq, Senator Kerry's attack on the president about them dominated his campaign today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUSH: My policy support and strengthen the small businesses.

BASH (voice-over): The president came to Wisconsin to talk about the economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, who is responsible for the weapons missing in Iraq?

BASH: He did not answer a question about who may be responsible for 380 tons of high-level explosives missing in Iraq, but his campaign did, saying they believe John Kerry attacked the president a day earlier based on what they call questionable information.

After "The New York Times" reported the explosives missing, the senator said this.

KERRY: This is one of the great blunders of Iraq, one of the great blunders of this administration, and the incredible incompetence of this president and this administration. BASH: NBC News later reported the 101st Airborne arrived at the site nearly a month after air strikes began. And now the reporter on the ground says the military did not see or search for explosives.

Bush officials initially bombarded reporters with e-mail, saying that report proved "The New York Times" and the senator wrong. Not so, said Camp Kerry. Regardless, the White House should have shown more urgency. The president's aides now concede there are many unanswered questions about when the explosives disappeared and who is to blame and say that's why Kerry is out of line.

DAN BARTLETT, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIR.: I think when you see the facts being contradicted in some cases through some of these reports that are coming now, it shows the weakness in their strategy down the stretch of this campaign.

BASH: Defending the president's execution of war, of course, was not the pre-planned Bush strategy of the day. That was to spin the president's Wisconsin bus tour as proof they're on offense, going to Democratic areas of a traditionally Democratic state, getting pictures like these on local news, exuding confidence.

The candidate stayed on message.

BUSH: Getting people to go to the polls, remind them of this, under the Bush administration, the farmers are doing just fine. The income is up and people are making a living.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: The president was asked a second time about the explosives and, again, did not answer. But certainly the president was at least trying to show that he is paying attention. He added a line late in the afternoon to his speech where he said that the senator has no vision, just a long list of complaints -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Dana Bash on the campaign trail in Dubuque, Iowa, for us. Thank you very much.

And the results of our latest so-called "poll of polls" are now in. An average of six national polls shows Bush with a 2-point lead over John Kerry. That would be 49 percent to 47 percent. That's within the polls sampling errors. The polls, by the way, were conducted over the past four days.

Sharon's D-Day, an historic decision in Israel made just a short time ago. Why the prime minister's life though could now be in serious danger, danger coming from fellow Israelis.

Foreign fighters captured in Iraq, should the non-Iraqi prisoners be protected by the Geneva Conventions? The United States Justice Department weighs in.

War of words between two top basketball stars, Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant. We'll get the inside scoop, my interview coming up with their former coach, Phil Jackson. All of that coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Israel today may well have reached a turning point. A deeply polarized parliament voted to back the prime minister, Ariel Sharon's plan to withdraw from Gaza and a small part of the West Bank. But Mr. Sharon's own finance minister, the former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, now says he will quit the government if the matter isn't put to a nationwide referendum. Others are threatening to do the exact same thing.

Meantime, Mr. Sharon himself is facing far more serious threats. CNN's John Vause reports from Jerusalem.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Surrounded by an unprecedented number of bodyguards, 16 in all, Ariel Sharon arrived at the Israeli parliament with more than his political career on the line. His life is also in danger. This freshly sprayed graffiti in Jerusalem reads, "we killed Prime Minister Rabin, we'll kill Sharon as well."

Outside parliament, settlers and there supporters rallied, angry that the man who sent them to the occupied territories is now telling them to leave the Gaza Strip and four small settlements in the West Bank.

Sarah Zweig lives in a Gaza settlement called Gush Katif. Her sister was shot dead by Palestinian militants there two years ago. Even so, she's determined to stay with her husband and three young children.

SARAH ZWEIG, ISRAELI SETTLER: Ariel Sharon sent them Gush Katif and told them that they have to be a messenger of Israel. And now he doesn't even speak to us. He wants us just to go away.

VAUSE: The Jewish settlers in the West Bank, Like Noa Lev, there are real fears this is just beginning.

NOA LEV, ISRAELI SETTLER: It will be a model to leave other places which we certainly don't want.

VAUSE (on camera): These settlers and their supporters are warning that Ariel Sharon is tearing apart the very fabric of Israeli society, possibly bringing it closer to civil war. And while the latest opinion polls show they're very much in the minority, they say they will continue to fight the disengagement plan to the bitter end.

(voice-over): The end is now one very big step closer with Israel's parliament, the Knesset, approving the disengagement plan by a seven-vote majority, including the support of five rebellious ministers who tried at the last minute to force a national referendum, Sharon refused. But it only passed with the support of the Labor opposition.

SHIMON PERES, LABOR PARTY LEADER: I feel the decision is beginning to take shape and nobody can stop it, in spite of all the considerations and calculations. VAUSE: Almost half of Mr. Sharon's conservative Likud party voted no and the disengagement plan must still win cabinet approval before each of the four stages of withdrawal.

So, to Ariel Sharon, there are still uncertain days ahead. The protest will continue and his shaky minority government remains in danger of collapse. Regardless, on this day, at least, the man they call the bulldozer has had his way. John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Here is your chance to weigh in on this story. Our web question of the day is this. "Should Israel press ahead with its pullout plan?" You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results a little bit later this hour.

Splitting from his party. On a highly sensitive issue, President Bush makes some surprising remarks on the issue of same sex civil unions. We'll have details.

Detainees' rights. Should foreign fighters captured in Iraq be protected by international law?

And allegations against Saudi Arabia regarding the financing of terrorists inside Iraq. The top Saudi foreign policy adviser Adel al- Jubeir, he'll join me live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A surprise split between President Bush and his own party. In an interview earlier with ABC News, the president, who wants a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage said he isn't opposed to same sex civil unions. That's in direct conflict with the Republican party platform, which opposes any legal recognition or benefits for same-sex couples.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I don't think we should deny people rights to a civil union, a legal arrangement, if that's what a state chooses to do so.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Republican platform opposes it.

BUSH: Well, I don't. I view the definition of marriage different from legal arrangements that enable people to have rights. I strongly believe that marriage ought to be defined as between -- a union between a man and a woman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, the Republican platform on that, as far as you're concerned on that point is wrong?

BUSH: Right.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about that and other subjects with David Gergen. He's a former adviser to presidents Nixon, Reagan, Ford, and Clinton. He is currently editor-at-large for "U.S. News & World Report." He's joining us now live from Boston. He also teaches at Harvard. He's a very busy guy. David, thanks very much for joining us. What do you make of the president going against his own party platform on this issue of same-sex civil unions?

DAVID GERGEN, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Well, I have to say, it's very surprising. It seems to come from a genuine place and a place of caring. So, it's authentic on his part, but just a week before the election when the Republicans are trying very hard to get all the evangelicals out to vote and people who oppose this and of course the president has been doing better among black conservatives partly over this issue. It's a surprise to see him now state a week before the election a view that's in contradiction to his own platform.

BLITZER: Let's talk about some other issues out there. The former president of the United States, the man you once worked for, Bill Clinton, stomping now for John Kerry. Is it going to help or hurt?

GERGEN: I don't think there's any question it's going to help this time around. If Al Gore had wrapped himself around Clinton, I think he might be president today. The huge crowd that came out in Philadelphia yesterday I think is going to have an impact in the Pennsylvania race, which of course is one of the critical battlegrounds. And now for the president to go into a few things -- it's odd, isn't it, that if Clinton (UNINTELLIGIBLE) something for him, you know, all fall, I think he would have less impact in coming out in this way. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when people feel in such a nostalgic mood about him, to come out in this way almost as a rock star, I think helps John Kerry.

And what it's adding up to, Wolf, from the president's point of view, the president maintains a continuing lead in the national polls, but the lead is narrowing some and Kerry is gaining momentum this week, not only from the Clinton visit, but from the news itself. The events have taken a bad turn for the president this week.

BLITZER: Well, some of those events like those missing explosives certainly, are bad news. But there's other events. Ayad Allawi today saying U.S.-led negligence resulted in that massacre of Iraqi troops, 50 of them or so over the weekend. There are series of bad news events for the president.

GERGEN: Mr. Allawi did his friend, George Bush, no favors today by talking about gross negligence on part of the coalition forces, which are, of course, led by United States forces. It seems to me, he could have curbed those comments and helped his friend Mr. Bush. But that kind of comment coming 24 hours after there's a whole allegation of negligence on the part of the U.S. coalition provisional authority with regard to the 360 tons of explosives, those two things coming together and then you have on top of that today the story that leaks out that the administration wants at least $70 to $75 billion in additional spending next year in Iraq and Afghanistan, partly because of this insurgency and rising oil prices, that combination, Wolf, is exactly what a challenger like John Kerry needs to pump momentum into his campaign.

On top of that, today, to have new consumer confidence numbers coming out, third month in a row in which they're down. They're down to a seven-month low altogether. That is providing as I say the ammunition that a challenger like John Kerry needs. The president needs to find a way to produce some fresh news of his own to change this momentum, because this race is tightening on him in ways that must be extremely uncomfortable and is very encouraging for the Kerry forces.

BLITZER: David Gergen as usual, thanks very much for joining us.

GERGEN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll be speaking often between now and a week from today, the election. Don't forget, by the way, to our viewers, election day only one week away from today. CNN's entire election team will be here in New York, broadcasting live from the Nasdaq Market site in the heart of Time Square. We'll use the technology of the world's largest stock market to bring you details about every candidate, every race as you've never seen before. Election day coming up one week from today from Time Square here in New York.

High profile kidnappings, attacks against coalition and Iraqi forces. It's all part of a growing Iraqi insurgency, but is money from Saudi Arabia funding these terrorist activities? One of the kingdom's top advisers, Adel al-Jubeir, he's standing by. He'll join me live.

And America first thought terrorists might have struck again, but today the final report on what caused Flight 587 to crash here in New York. The final report is released. We'll have the results. That's coming up.

And in our look around the world, the buck stops here. Find out where the dollar will be denied.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to New York. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting.

Allegations that Saudis are financing Iraqi insurgents. Now a key Saudi adviser responding to the accusations. We'll get to that.

First, though, a quick check of some other stories now in the news.

We're getting word of another apparent hostage taking in Iraq. Both the Associated Press and Reuters are reporting there is a new video allegedly showing a Japanese man being held by Abu Musab al- Zarqawi's group. According to the reports, the group threatening to kill the hostage unless Japan withdraws its troops within 48 hours. We're watching this story. We'll get some more information for you as it becomes available.

Other stories. The National Transportation Safety Board blaming pilot error for the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 in November 2001. The report says the co-pilot took an aggressive and unnecessary action in response to turbulence. The Airbus A-300 crashed moments after taking off from New York's Kennedy Airport, killing 265 people.

The defense resting in Scott Peterson's murder trial without calling the accused to the stand, but Peterson's parents did testify. The judge says the defense rebuttal will come tomorrow, with closing arguments expected Monday. Peterson is accused of looking his wife and unborn child. He could get the death penalty.

Hundreds of people attended the funeral today of a 21-year-old student accidentally killed by Boston Police during last week's Red Sox celebrations. Victoria Snelgrove was hit in the eye by a pepper spray bullet as police tried to control a rowdy crowd.

Keeping you informed, CNN, the most trusted name in news.

Ever since 9/11, there have been allegations that terrorists are getting help from inside Saudi Arabia. Now those accusations, once again, have resurfaced.

CNN's Zain Verjee joining us now live from the CNN Center -- Zain.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the U.S. military is indicating rebels in Iraq appear to be getting a little help from friends across the border in a country that is a U.S. ally.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE (voice-over): Iraqi insurgents need cash to kill. According to recent U.S. military intelligence report, those insurgents depend on external donors for financing attacks, attacks the U.S. believes are being bankrolled by some Saudi money.

U.S. Senator Bob Graham tried to turn it into a campaign issue on CNN's "LATE EDITION."

SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D), FLORIDA: I believe a real test of leadership for President Bush would be to let the American people know what the Saudis are doing and what he intends to do about it, if he continues as president.

VERJEE: The Pentagon believes wealthy Saudi individuals and charities sympathetic to Iraqi rebels are providing the cash. U.S. officials say that money is being funneled through Syria, a charge the Saudi government rejects. Nonetheless, the report has raised questions for some about Saudi Arabia's commitment to the U.S.-led war on terror.

GRAHAM: That was a disingenuous ally during September the 11th, has continued to take steps that are adverse to our interests in Iraq and Afghanistan and other places around the world.

VERJEE: A senior Saudi official says this view is distorted and motivated merely by election-year politics. The kingdom adds, it has taken substantive steps to combat terrorism. Congressional Republicans support that view.

SEN. RICK SANTORUM (R), PENNSYLVANIA: We have continued to try to put pressure and work with the Saudi government to try to get the insurgents within Saudi Arabia to bring them to justice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Wolf, Saudi Arabia says, if the U.S. provides specific evidence against Saudi individuals who fund Iraqi insurgents, the kingdom will crack down.

BLITZER: Zain Verjee reporting us -- Zain, thank you very much.

And joining us now from Washington to discuss these serious allegations is Adel Al-Jubeir. He is the chief Saudi foreign policy adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah.

Adel Al-Jubeir, thanks very much for joining us.

ADEL AL-JUBEIR, ADVISER TO SAUDI CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: Thank you.

BLITZER: You know Senator Bob Graham. He is a serious man, former chairman of the Intelligence Committee. You think this is election-year politicking on his part?

AL-JUBEIR: Because he's a serious man, I find it hard to believe that he actually believes what he says. The statements he has made with regard to Saudi Arabia have been irresponsible and are not borne by the facts.

We have been serious in combating terrorism because terrorism is out to murder our people and our residents. Allegations that he has made about Saudi Arabia have been debunked by the 9/11 Commission reporter. He proceeds to write a book repeating those same allegations. It seems to me that where he is getting his information, it's not very reliable.

BLITZER: But he's getting that information in part from a Defense Intelligence Agency report, a DIA report that, came out in recent days suggest that there is Saudi money, not necessarily Saudi government money, but individual Saudis are funneling money through Syria into the insurgency in Iraq. You're familiar with that?

AL-JUBEIR: Yes.

And I believe, Wolf, that the actual report put out by the Defense Intelligence Agency is slightly different from the way it was reported. When people say Saudi money has gone into Iraq, how do they know? We have taken very strong steps to ensure that our banks are solid, to make sure that our charities cannot send money abroad, to ensure that it's very difficult for people to raise cash and try to take it through couriers in Iraq.

We have stopped individuals from doing so. We have captured individuals who have tried to send money to Iraq and we have put them in jail. Our point is, we are very serious about making sure that no Saudi money or no Saudi individuals go to Iraq to fight in the insurgency, because they will come back and fight us in Riyadh.

And if anyone has any information that can help us apprehend those individuals, please provide it to us, so we can take very firm action against them.

BLITZER: Usually, these kinds of allegations are accepted by a lot of Americans, who remember that 15 of the 19 hijackers were, in fact, Saudis. How much support do you sense there is among Saudis for the insurgency against the U.S.-led coalition and the interim government in Iraq? How much support is there in Saudi Arabia for the fighting against the Iraqi government and the U.S.-led coalition?

AL-JUBEIR: Very little, Wolf, because nobody will condone the killing of the innocent.

We are fighting our own insurgency against the terrorists in Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda has set off bomb in our various cities. They have murdered our people. They have murdered residents of Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia has some sympathizers among the extremists. And I would imagine that those sympathizers who support the murder of people in Saudi Arabia would probably support the killing of people in Iraq. It's a small group. We're going after them. We're going after the mind-set. We're going to after the finances and we're making progress in rooting them out from our midst.

BLITZER: How do you know and how can you check in Saudi Arabia, especially during this wholly month of Ramadan, when Muslims give to charity, whether some of these charities are not funneling the money to the terrorists around the world or to the insurgents in Iraq?

AL-JUBEIR: The charities in Saudi Arabia are prohibited from withdrawing cash from their bank accounts. They don't even have bank cards. The charities in Saudi Arabia are prohibited from transferring funds abroad until we have a new entity in place through which all charitable contributions abroad can flow.

We have advised our citizens not to give contributions during the wholly month of Ramadan in the form of cash, but to deposit their donations in bank accounts, so we can track it. You're right. It's a very difficult challenge and we're working very, very hard to ensure that we have control over it.

And so, the charges that are being bandied about by someone like Senator Graham to say that Saudi Arabia is not doing enough or that Saudi Arabia has been negligent are really not only irresponsible, but not supported by the facts.

BLITZER: Adel Al-Jubeir joining us from Washington -- Adel, thank you very much for spending a few moments with us.

AL-JUBEIR: My pleasure.

BLITZER: Foreign fighters arrested in Iraq. Should the Geneva Conventions apply to non-Iraqi prisoners captured in Iraq? Coaching some of the NBA's best players, including Kobe Bryant. What was it like when he was accused of rape? I'll ask his former Los Angeles Lakers coach, Phil Jackson. He'll join me here.

And who would make a more delicious -- yes, delicious -- head of state? You may need some pita bread to answer that question. We'll explain.

First, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Muslim protesters burned down a school amid rising tensions in southern Thailand. Authorities arrested 1,300 protesters during one violent demonstration and packed them into badly overcrowded police trucks. Close to 80 of them died of suffocation and crushing.

Afghan election. The votes have been counted in Afghanistan and the totals show interim President Hamid Karzai winning a full five- year term. Mr. Karzai won 55 percent of the vote.

Dollars denied. Cuban businesses won't be allowed to accept U.S. dollars anymore. The Castro government says its decree will protect Cuba against U.S. economic sanctions. Observers say it will hurt Cubans who receive money from relatives living in the United States.

Gay Paris. The French gay community celebrated the launch of France's first gay television channel with a party in Paris. Pink TV, as its called, offers subscribers a mix of movies, soap operas and talk shows with a gay theme.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: In an extraordinary move, the Bush administration says foreign prisoners captured by American forces in Iraq are not necessarily entitled to the protection of the Geneva Conventions.

Our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena, is covering the story. She is joining us now live from Washington with more -- Kelli.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the opinion has definitely sparked some serious debate, but Justice and other administration officials would argue that this stance is not new and has been very consistent since the war on terror began.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): U.S. officials say about a dozen non-Iraqi fighters captured in Iraq have been secretly transferred out of the country for detention and interrogation. And despite what critics say, senior Justice Department officials argue, unlike Saddam loyalists, foreign fighters are not protected by the Geneva Conventions. Some legal experts agree.

DAVID RIVKIN, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ATTORNEY: If you have a particular set of interrogators in another country that has the expertise, has familiarity with the suspects involved or their associates, it makes perfect sense to move them.

ARENA: Senior government officials say the detainees are being handled in the same way the U.S. is handling al Qaeda fighters that have been captured. U.S. officials argue they are on solid legal ground, because these individuals were not fighting on behalf of a recognized sovereign power. Critics charge the administration is blatantly violating international law.

TOM MALINOWSKI, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: The Geneva Convention say that you can't hold people in secret. You can't hide them from the Red Cross. That kind of policy invites abuse and it invites other countries to do the same thing to captured Americans. I think it's a terrible misjudgment by the administration.

ARENA: Officials say the Justice Department issued a legal opinion in March on the matter after the transfers had already taken place. It did so at the request of the CIA and the military.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Insisting the information is highly classified, none of the officials that CNN spoke to would talk about where the detainees are being held or whether they're still in U.S. custody. And they're not ruling out similar action in the future -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena for us -- thank you very much, Kelli.

He coached nine NBA teams to glory and now he's offering some serious advice to anyone who will listen. Up next, my one-on-one talk with the former basketball coach Phil Jackson.

Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Phil Jackson coached nine NBA championship teams. Now he has a new book out about his final turbulent season with the Los Angeles Lakers, including his strained relationship with Kobe Bryant.

I spoke with Phil Jackson just a short time ago here in New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Phil Jackson, thanks very much for joining us.

PHIL JACKSON, FORMER NBA COACH: My pleasure, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's talk about your book a little bit, very blunt. You're pretty candid in there.

When you first learned about the allegations against Kobe Bryant, in the book, you write this: "Was I surprised? Yes, but not entirely. Kobe can be consumed with surprising anger, which he has displayed toward me and toward his teammates."

Give us an example.

JACKSON: Well, I think there are some situations that arose in practices and in postgame situations, some timeouts, things in which you felt the heat of his anger that was surprising.

BLITZER: That he would get physical like that, that he would...

JACKSON: Well, not so much, but vitriolic kind of comments that could come. And I think that that was a surprise.

And, you know, Kobe had had a few incidents with his teammates in which he demonstrated even physical intimidation at times.

BLITZER: So, was it a shock, though, to you that this woman, this young woman, was coming forward and accusing him of raping her?

JACKSON: Oh, well, of course. No one expects something like that to happen. Kobe had such an innocent background. When I got there, he was a 20-year-old kid living with his parents.

BLITZER: Because there's nothing in it that I could see, at least in his history, any other women coming forward along these lines and making these kind of serious allegations.

JACKSON: Oh, no. That part of it was tough.

You know what I mentioned in following that, is that Kobe's reaction to being cornered or being coached even in those situations sometimes is coming back with anger at authority. My concern was that the anger would come back at authority, whether it was the law or whether it was my authority at times, which would be difficult for us and the team.

BLITZER: Did you speak to him directly about the allegations as a coach? He comes back. He is commuting basically between Colorado and L.A. or whatever, playing games.

JACKSON: No.

BLITZER: Did you ever sit down and say, Kobe, if you want to talk about it...

JACKSON: You know, I opened up and called a couple of times and never got a return call. But the idea was, when I met him in August the first time to say, what are you doing to help with this situation? Do you have someone to talk to? Do you have a therapist you're working with?

And he told me that he had a minister in his local church that he was talking to.

BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about this. You also write in the book: "Every player would like to win a title, but only if it doesn't threaten his more pressing individual needs. In the 1960s and 70s, the players asked, where do I fit in? How can I help this team win? Now they ask, how do I get what I want?"

That sounds like such an indictment of the current generation of stars in the NBA.

JACKSON: I don't think it's an indictment about the stars as much as it is of the system.

The system that the NBA has kind of generated, it's the agents that have kind of generated this system in the last 25 years that have created this kind of a world that we live in, where there's only 10 big endorsements or so that players can get for their contracts, maybe 12 or 15 guys that really get the big endorsement money.

They want to be seen on ESPN highlights so that they can get the endorsement. There's a max cap that now goes with the contracts, negotiation with the league. There's only two or three guys that get max cap on the team. So there's always an exclusion. And players are playing for that max cap situation all the time. So it's always kind of an in-and-out situation the players have.

BLITZER: What was it like coaching Michael Jordan?

JACKSON: Well, the difference is, is that, when I went to Chicago, I was an assistant coach and I came up through the ranks with Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant being rookies. So I was kind of family when I got to coach Michael. And it was accepted. There was a relationship there.

When I came to L.A., it was as a stranger, a guy with a reputation of winning six championships. I was kind of touted as, this is the coach that can get us to the championships. So there was a difference, a big difference.

BLITZER: So it was a lot different coaching Michael Jordan than Kobe Bryant or Shaquille O'Neal, for that matter.

JACKSON: On the Lakers, right.

BLITZER: Shaquille O'Neal was a whole different kettle of worms if you will.

JACKSON: Yes.

BLITZER: What was it like coaching him?

JACKSON: Well, I say in the book, the comparison is that, when you would get after Shaq about something, doing something, he would go, like, no, I don't want to do that and he would argue about it. And then he would go find a way to do it, whether it was on the court or in his life or whatever had to happen. With Kobe, it was like, OK, and then he would probably do what he wanted to do when he got out to that situation.

BLITZER: And these guys didn't like each other, Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant?

JACKSON: Well, I'm not going to say don't like each other, just on a different path. They're on a different wavelength.

One kid was brought up in a military family in Shaq. He has a stepfather who was a military man. Kobe is brought up in an NBA family, a solid two-family home -- or two-parent home, two sisters ahead of him, living abroad most of his childhood. It was a much different upbringing. And so they had different courses they were going. They have different agendas in their life.

BLITZER: You're not coaching. Do you feel bad on the sidelines this season?

JACKSON: Not at all. I am enjoying watching the game or anticipating what it's going to be like.

BLITZER: What would it take for you to come back?

JACKSON: Boy, you got me there. I can't tell you what it would take to come back and coach. I would have to read that book again a couple of times before I do it.

BLITZER: But you might come back one of these days?

JACKSON: I'm not burning any bridges, I hope.

BLITZER: I hope so, too.

Phil Jackson, thank you very much.

JACKSON: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Good book.

JACKSON: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we'll have the results of our Web question of the day. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here are the results of our Web question of the day; 88 percent of you say yes; 12 percent of you say no. Should Israel press ahead with its pullout plan?

Let's take a look at our picture of the day, kosher candidates. We've seen them in cartoons and characters, on bumper stickers and T- shirts. But this is a first, George Bush and John Kerry carved in humus. It's the work of a professional sand sculptor who made this creation for the 16th annual Kosherfest trade show here in New York.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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