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American Morning

Presidential Vote Still Too Close to Call

Aired November 03, 2004 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: On this morning, too close to call. President Bush captures the popular vote easily, but cannot claim victory without Ohio, where the counting continues there today.
Senator Kerry holding out until all the votes are counted, perhaps 11 more days. If Ohio breaks his way, he'll be the president. Whichever man is elected, though, he will be seeing red. With Republican gains in the Senate and in the House, a clear majority of governorships, America steadily getting more Republican on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.

HEMMER: Good morning.

Live in New York City this morning, we're continuing our coverage now, at 8:00 in the morning here in New York.

And as we await the day after, it is November 3rd. Still no call yet, but we await it. And as we go throughout the hour here, look to the bottom of your screen here. We'll have complete election results from all of the races across the country as we move throughout the morning here.

Soledad is in Columbus, Ohio awaiting results there -- good morning.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you, Bill.

And, in fact, it may feel a little bit like deja vu, but this time it's a battle for Ohio. Right now, CNN projects President Bush the winner of 254 electoral votes. He needs 270 to win a second term. Senator Kerry has 252 electoral votes. And despite races too close to call in Ohio, in New Mexico and Iowa, the Bush campaign is claiming those states for the Republicans.

Officials in Iowa don't expect to finish counting until tonight. The same deal in New Mexico. But, of course, we're talking about Ohio. Neither Iowa or New Mexico are really enough to win the White House. It is going to take Ohio's 20 electoral votes to make it all the way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Here are the issues in Ohio, provisional and absentee ballots. Listen to Ken Blackwell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH BLACKWELL (R-OHIO), SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a very deliberate and cautious process and so, you know, I tell everybody just take a deep breath and relax. We can't predict what the results are going to be. We can only guarantee you that you're going to get an honest and fair count through our bipartisan system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That's Ken Blackwell, who's been up through the night as they try to hash through exactly what the numbers look like here in Ohio.

We're going to continue to follow this story, of course, the Republicans feeling very excited this morning.

But technically, officially, it is still a tossup -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, keep us posted there from Columbus.

We want to check in with both campaigns now.

From the White House, Suzanne Malveaux is tracking things there.

What's the latest this hour?

Good morning -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Bill.

It is a full it here at the White House. That is really White House speak for it is time for everybody to take a break, including the president, perhaps, to get a little nap in. We are told by Bush officials that about 9:00, in about 15 minutes from now, is when senior administration officials will reconvene to try to figure out what to do next.

Now, we are told that the president is going to address the American people later today, that he is going to declare victory. But they are saying out of respect for Kerry, they want him to take some time to look at those results and to concede before the president does that.

That was earlier this morning, about 5:30 in the morning, that his chief of staff went to the Ronald Reagan Building to address the thousands of people who were waiting to hear from the president, had been waiting all night, Card saying that he believed that the president was the clear winner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW CARD, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: We are convinced that President Bush has won reelection with at least 286 electoral college votes. And he also had a margin of more than three and a half million popular votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MALVEAUX: Now, what began as really a Bush family reunion at the White House, everybody meeting at the residence, quickly turned into a strategy session as they realized what was developing in Ohio. That is when all of the aides gathered, told the president that they thought perhaps he should go out there and declare a victory. But the political calculus here, Bill, of course, is that they believe that they want the American people to see this as a legitimate result, as a legitimate election. They say why not just hold back and wait until Kerry concedes.

They truly believe that they have won Ohio. They say they're ahead by 140,000 votes, electoral votes.

HEMMER: Let me understand, what is the strategy, then, for Andy Card coming out and making that announcement at 5:00 in the morning today, then?

MALVEAUX: Well, it simply is to tell those folks to go home and to come back a little bit later. A lot of people have been waiting for a long time to hear from the president. There was a lot of buildup, a lot of anticipation here. But really the thinking here is it doesn't cost the White House anything just to pull back and to wait a little bit. They are trying to what they say unite the country around these results. They are trying to work with the Democrats in the future. The president knows that he is going to have to do that.

So why not just pull back, wait a little bit longer? They believe that it will give more legitimacy to these results.

HEMMER: But make no mistake about it, they believe they've won this campaign, right? That's what they're saying.

MALVEAUX: Absolutely. They say they talked with the secretary of state of Ohio. They say that the margin here that they have, the president's lead is insurmountable. They do not believe that even counting those provisional votes, taking them into consideration, will make any difference at all.

HEMMER: All right, Suzanne, thanks for that.

We'll get back in a touch in a moment there.

To the Kerry campaign in Boston and Kelly Wallace -- Kelly, what are you hearing?

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm hearing, Bill, that campaign advisers meeting at this very hour and campaign aides saying really nothing more than a top adviser said early today when I talked to him. This adviser saying the campaign this morning would be looking at the real numbers in Ohio to see what are the "realistic prospects" of Ohio turning around, that that would be an assessment Senator Kerry would have to make, that he'd have to look carefully at the numbers and make a decision.

In the words of his adviser, though, it sounds like it's not going to be a long period of time before such a decision is made. This adviser saying, "We won't make it a mystery too long."

The first signs that this campaign would not be conceding last night, Mary Beth Cahill, the campaign manager (AUDIO GAP) 250,000 remaining votes to be counted in Ohio, and that the campaign believed once all the votes were counted, John Kerry would win Ohio. Then a short time later it was Senator John Edwards coming out here at 2:30 in the morning to talk to those supporters who are still gathered here at Copley Square.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's been a long night, but we've waited four years for this victory. We can wait one more night.

John Kerry and I made a promise to the American people that in this election, every vote would count and every vote would be counted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: As for Senator Kerry, he remained out of sight at his Boston townhouse huddled (AUDIO GAP) his two daughters and also his staff. He did work late into the night, though, before polls closed. He did 38 interviews over four hours with television stations in key battleground states.

Earlier in the day we saw the senator casting a ballot for himself, of course, here in Boston, and he was somewhat reflective as he talked with reporters, some words that have a lot of resonance today, because he said whatever the outcome, "We will move forward no matter what, because that is who we are as Americans and that is what we need to do."

So still waiting to hear word from the Kerry campaign. The sense is, Bill, we're not likely to get any sense from the campaign about the next steps until 10:00 a.m. local time at the earliest -- Bill.

HEMMER: Well, we'll wait on that about two hours from now.

But after John Edwards made that announcement, I know it was a rainy night in Boston last night, was there a sense or a feeling that you could pick up from those who had gathered there?

WALLACE: Well, first of all, a number of people started leaving. It was a cold and rainy night and people started to feel somewhat depressed as the evening went on and as other news organizations, in fact, called Ohio for President Bush.

There were those that remained behind. They send sort of a fighting spirit, that they were going to move on and they made memories, Bill, of 2000, many believing that Al Gore wasn't aggressive enough, conceding a little bit in the beginning, that they needed to fight back more quickly in the beginning of 2000 so that the campaign wanting to push hard right away to make sure every vote is counted.

But right now, it's sort of a sense from the campaign waiting to see if the campaign believes they really have the numbers to try and turn the state around for Senator Kerry.

HEMMER: Let me try just again here.

Is there any sense of concession that you feel in Boston at this point?

WALLACE: Well, I can only go by this one adviser, who's a very top adviser to Senator Kerry, who was speaking, I thought, very realistically, saying we have to look at the numbers. He didn't say the numbers are completely on our side, basically said he didn't know. We have to look at the numbers, he said, and have to see if there is a realistic possibility when you look at the provisional ballots, when you look at the gap, the gap between President Bush and Senator Kerry, to see if it's possible, with the votes that still need to be counted, for John Kerry to be victorious.

So I got a sense of a very pragmatic approach here on the part of this adviser, but also saying it's up to Senator Kerry to look at the situation carefully, make an assessment and decide where to go from here -- Bill.

HEMMER: Kelly, thanks.

Kelly Wallace in Boston.

Back to Columbus now and more with Soledad there -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right, Bill, thanks.

CNN's Joe Johns also joins me in Columbus this morning.

He's been following developments all through the night right here.

And, Joe, of course, you're a native of Columbus, so thanks for having us to your hometown.

Let's talk a little bit about...

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome.

O'BRIEN: Thanks.

Let's talk a little bit about provisional ballots, because it really comes down to a numbers game, as we just heard Kelly report.

Give me a sense of what it means and what are the options here for the Kerry campaign.

JOHNS: Right.

Well, one of the big things, obviously, is the margin of victory the president now has. The secretary of state here in Ohio just put out some numbers. He says the margin at this hour is 134,019 votes in Ohio. That's the president leading John Kerry. Now, the question, of course, the key question everybody's talking about is the provisional votes. And what we do know is that right now there are about 135,000 or so ballots out there that are provisional ballots that were cast yesterday, on Election Day. Now, there are a number of counties that have not, in fact, put out their numbers on provisional ballots. That's 10 counties in Ohio, some of them...

O'BRIEN: How big are these counties we're talking about?

JOHNS: They're not...

O'BRIEN: I mean what -- because obviously the Kerry campaign is counting on some big numbers -- and would need some seriously big numbers here in order to have a chance.

JOHNS: They're not the largest. Franklin County, which is here in the Columbus area, has already reported its numbers. Cuyahoga County, which is Cleveland, has already reported how many provisional ballots it has. These are smaller counties. It's like Lucas County, which includes Toledo, Ohio; Mahoning County...

O'BRIEN: So the first...

JOHNS: ... which includes Youngstown and so on.

O'BRIEN: So the first step would be getting to that magic number of 134,019 votes, because if they don't even get there, it's over for the Kerry campaign. Then the next thing, of course, is how those votes go, because they don't open them for over a week.

JOHNS: Right.

They don't open them for 10 days and they do have to get to that magic number. But you also have to consider there are the absentee ballots from overseas that just had to be postmarked last night. Those have to be counted, too, and they have to be factored into the equation.

So it could be a while before we really know, you know, once...

O'BRIEN: So Ohio is the Florida of 2004.

We should also mention, you know, the noise behind you, I believe that's the young kids from City Year, who do volunteer work. Obviously warming up and getting ready to start their day, because, as you know, the sun is rising here. We're all getting under way and we still do not have, officially, a president of the United States.

Thanks, Joe.

Appreciate it -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Soledad, 12 minutes past the hour.

Let's continue our legal discussion now. Attorneys from both parties, we know, are in Ohio, watching and waiting for the provisional ballots and the absentee ballots to be counted.

Let's talk about it now here in New York City.

Harvard Professor Lawrence Tribe with us today and Attorney C. Boyden Gray with us, as well.

Good morning to both of you gentlemen.

LAWRENCE TRIBE, HARVARD UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: Good morning.

C. BOYDEN GRAY, ATTORNEY: Good morning.

HEMMER: We had a late night last night. We stayed on until about 3:30 in the morning.

For you, what is the critical issue that you're measuring right now in Ohio?

TRIBE: The critical issue for me is an issue of principle. It's the question of whether people who go to the right precinct and who are simply not on registration lists, perhaps for a technical reason, and as a matter of federal and state law, are given a provisional ballot, have a right to have it counted. It's not a matter of recounting or anything. It's simply a matter of counting the votes.

And even if there were a landslide in some jurisdiction, one doesn't just say to the people in some borough ooh, we're going to stop counting even though you've got a right to vote because your votes won't make a difference.

Of course, in this case, we don't know for sure, when you add the absentee ballots and the provisional ballots, that they would not turn the tide. But in principle, we don't have to know that until and unless there is a concession by Senator Kerry, which is a political matter that he is, I'm sure, seriously considering whether he ought to or not to. Unless there's a concession, you notice the secretary of state of Ohio has not certified the state. Even though he's a Republican, he's not certified it for Bush. In fact, earlier he had said that certain people couldn't register and he had rejected the registrations because they were on the wrong thickness of paper and then he pulled that back.

We don't know whether a lot of these people are for technical reasons. And the last time, in 2000, when there were 100,000 provisional ballots in the State of Ohio, it turns out that 91 percent of them turned out to be perfectly valid votes.

HEMMER: One thing you said...

TRIBE: So I think we need to know.

HEMMER: One thing you said in there, for John Kerry it is a political question that he needs to answer. But if we state the legal side here, what are you measuring, based on what we're hearing out of Ohio this morning?

GRAY: Well, I think that it's virtually mathematically impossible and it is true, as Larry Tribe says, that in principle you should count these provisional votes. But I believe in 2000 these provisional ballots were checked for viability, but they weren't counted and no one knows today, I don't think, how many of those provisional votes were for Bush or for Gore because it didn't matter. And the same is true here, it just doesn't matter.

HEMMER: But you're saying the math doesn't add up.

GRAY: The math doesn't add up and you can insist on principle and put the country through 10 days or more of uncertainty and invite all kinds of other mischief. But I think that would not be the statesmanlike thing to do. I mean Nixon could have insisted on a recent in 1960. He didn't. There have been other examples of where presidents could have or candidates could have. I think it's over. As a complete practical matter, it's over and Kerry should concede.

But it is a political decision at this point.

HEMMER: Over?

TRIBE: I think that the old saying that it's not over until it's over is relevant here. By talking about politics, I didn't mean to suggest that that's my experience. As a matter of law, I don't even think as a matter of mathematics you can say for sure when you add the absentees and the provisional ballots, when you carefully count, we're not talking about recounting. We're not talking about challenging or contesting a result. You'll notice there are no lawyers running around here. It's just a question of the secretary of state counting these votes. And...

HEMMER: But based on what we're hearing and based on what we're talking about here, could this be over today?

GRAY: If Kerry concedes. Legally, I think Larry is right. Legally, this isn't over until this is a positive technical certification, which I think may not be possible for another 10 days or two weeks.

HEMMER: All right, G. Boyden Gray, thanks; and Lawrence Tribe.

TRIBE: Thank you.

HEMMER: I know you guys have had a very, very busy night.

I should point out, you're working with Harvard. But back in 2000, you did some work with Al Gore at the Supreme Court.

TRIBE: Right.

HEMMER: You did some work with George Bush from Tallahassee to Washington, D.C.

Thanks. GRAY: I think one of us had a little more luck than the other.

HEMMER: Thank you, gentlemen.

TRIBE: Thank you.

HEMMER: Good to see you this morning -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, Bill, it is another extended election. Is there anything that either candidate could or should have done to avoid this scenario? Kamber and May weigh in in just a moment.

HEMMER: Also, if Ohio is the Florida of 2004, what about the Sunshine State itself? We'll find out what, if anything, went wrong there.

That in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.

Let's begin by taking a look at the electoral college board. You can see there, 254 electoral votes for President Bush; 252 for Senator Kerry. Ohio, where we are this morning, in green, meaning that it is just too close to call today.

For the second time in four years, a presidential race is in limbo a day after the election. It all hinges on Ohio and its 20 electoral votes.

We begin this morning from Washington, D.C. with some differing points of view.

Democratic consultant Victor Kamber joins us; also, former RNC Communications Director Cliff May.

Good morning to you guys.

Thanks for being with us.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to it.

Victor, do you think, considering the scenario that we have now, it's essentially a numbers game? Do you think Senator Kerry should concede or should he wait it out, see what happens in Ohio?

KAMBER: Frankly, I hope he waits it out and sees what happens in Ohio. I think every vote should be counted. I don't think we need to have long protracted court actions and the like, but we have a number of votes that still are out there. The fact that if it waits one, two or three days, so be it. It was a long, hard fought campaign by both sides. I'm certainly disappointed it wasn't clearer, clearer for my side. But I still believe there's an opportunity here and I'd like to make sure that every vote is counted. And if George Bush is the winner -- O'BRIEN: Well...

KAMBER: ... is the winner in the end, so be it. I'd like it to be a clear win.

O'BRIEN: You say one, two or three...

CLIFFORD MAY, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: If I...

O'BRIEN: ... days, but actually, Cliff, we're not talking necessarily one, two or three... MAY: Ten days.

O'BRIEN: We're talking 10 days, right? MAY: Yes. And my guess is that Senator Kerry is likely to concede rather than do that. And I'll tell you part of the reason why. As you say, it's a numbers game. But let's recall that President Bush in this election has won more votes than any presidential candidate in American history ever. He's won 51 percent. That's the first time any candidate has won a majority of the votes, not just a plurality, since 1988.

And if you, by the way, if you start looking at Ohio carefully, and, again, all the votes should be counted, you probably want to look at other states. The margin of difference, for example, in Pennsylvania is narrower than the margin of difference in Ohio right now. So it's a fairly convincing victory.

But, look, we've got a system set up where when you have close elections, it can be difficult.

KAMBER: It's interesting... MAY: But I think it's clear -- I know what you're going to say...

KAMBER: It's interesting... MAY: Look...

KAMBER: ... that Cliff wants to count the popular vote this cycle... MAY: No, no, no, no.

KAMBER: He didn't last cycle. MAY: Let me say, whoever wins the electoral vote absolutely wins the election. That's the way the game is played. I understand.

KAMBER: So let's wait and see. MAY: But, Victor, on the other side, let's also say that all your friends who have the "Re-Defeat Bush" signs up, they must be saying right now, Kerry should concede because he lost the popular vote.

KAMBER: No, all I'm -- listen, again I'll say it, whether it's five days or 10 days, let's just count all the votes and then get on with it. Ten days is not going to -- after having four months last time, after what we've gone through, after the way this country is as divided as it is, it would be better and healthier for the country to make sure. And if there are other states, Cliff, there are -- where there's numbers in question, so be it. Let's revisit those states.

That's what the process is.

O'BRIEN: Victor, let's...

KAMBER: Every American that voted should be counted.

O'BRIEN: You guys, we don't have a ton of time.

Victor, I want to ask you, what did the Democrats do wrong? When you look at the popular vote that President Bush has walked away with, a huge increase over 2000, I mean clear signs that something has changed.

(AUDIO GAP) not do?

KAMBER: Well, you know, that's a hard question and I'm not going to be a second guesser. First of all, I think the campaign did an extremely good job and, you know, there's going to be a lot of Democrats who are going to -- especially those who weren't in the campaign and who didn't make any money out of it and who are on the outside. They're going to second guess every one of those staffers that was on the inside.

I'm not one of those. I happen to believe the campaign worked hard, the candidate was terrific and did a terrific job. We won the three debates. We worked very hard. We ran against a man who was popular and who was president during a war time. It became tough.

Are there decisions that should have been made differently? Should he have gone to a different state at the last minute or concentrated on another state? Hindsight will tell us that as you analyze things. But as we stand today, I think the Democrats should be proud (AUDIO GAP) campaign; maybe a losing one but it was a very strong one.

O'BRIEN: That's going to be our final word this morning, guys.

Victor Kamber, Cliff May, we're out of time, so we'll check in with you first the next time.

Thanks, guys.

Appreciate it. MAY: Bye-bye.

O'BRIEN: Bill

HEMMER: All right, Soledad, 23 minutes past the hour.

Let's get a break here.

In a moment, we're going to get another take here in a moment about what is a ahead for us. Republican Rudy Giuliani is my guest here in the studio as we continue, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HEMMER: Good morning.

Welcome back, everyone.

Just to set the table again for you, President Bush still holding that slim lead in Ohio. The state remains too close to call for us here at CNN. This as the Bush campaign declaring victory in Ohio about four and a half hours ago, and all of its 20 electoral votes.

Here now in New York, the former mayor, Rudolph Giuliani, my guest here now, a Bush supporter.

And good morning to you.

RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: Good morning.

HEMMER: We heard the numbers from Ohio. Some say they don't add up, 134,000 difference between Bush and Kerry. Provisional ballots outstanding, about 135,000.

That to the side, you believe John Kerry should concede now.

GIULIANI: Yes, I do.

HEMMER: Why is that?

GIULIANI: Because it can't be done. I mean you've got to face reality. I mean the president leads with 136,000 votes. That's not a slim lead. That's a one or two point win. I conceded elections where I lost by 42,000 votes because I felt, you know, it wouldn't be right to put the city in jeopardy of contesting an election like that.

This isn't a 500 vote margin like we had in Florida. This is 136,000 votes.

HEMMER: But it appears...

GIULIANI: That's a substantial win.

HEMMER: Here's the Kerry campaign, they said, look, let's go to bed, let's sleep on it...

GIULIANI: Good...

HEMMER: ... let the dust settle, wake up tomorrow...

GIULIANI: God bless them.

HEMMER: ... which is today and...

GIULIANI: They got (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

HEMMER: ... then face it down.

GIULIANI: He's going to wake up this morning. He got his sleep now. It's time to concede. We've got to -- you've got a country at war (AUDIO GAP). You've got an election that's over. You've got a president that's gotten the largest vote of any president in history and, you know, the president's got a majority of the popular vote. Even Bill Clinton didn't achieve that.

So -- and you've got a state that's out of reach. When it's 136,000 votes and you have 130,000 or so provisional ballots -- and, remember, provisional ballots are ballots that get challenged. They're people who, where there's some infirmity in their voting status and that's why they're doing a provisional ballot. And typically a good number of them just get knocked out.

So that 135,000, 136,000 provisional is going to get knocked down to a much smaller number. And then he'd have to win 100 percent of them. And I can't imagine there's any place in the state where he won 100 percent of the vote or President (AUDIO GAP).

I think if he had, if he has good lawyers -- and I've done election lawyering, too -- if he's got good lawyers, they're going to tell him, you want to be a statesman, the way to be a statesman is to concede because when -- you're going to get counted out, so why not, you know, go out on a high plane? And why not start the whole idea of uniting by doing the -- by doing the big thing?

HEMMER: I watched you about 3:00 this morning. You were on another network. And you came out and your approach was essentially the times are different now, this is a country at war, there are big issues out there and the voter turnout impressed you, as well.

GIULIANI: Right.

HEMMER: When you factor all that together, I'm assuming that's what leads you to this strong opinion you have at this point.

GIULIANI: Yes. Ohio, sure.

HEMMER: Regarding...

GIULIANI: And also that it is isn't Florida four years ago. It isn't 500 votes. It's 136,000 votes. The president has won Ohio. And if you count it, if you count it 20 times or you delay it for three weeks, the president is going to win Ohio. It's inevitable.

HEMMER: Outside of Ohio, why do you...

GIULIANI: And therefore he wins the election.

HEMMER: Why do you believe Republicans were so successful yesterday?

GIULIANI: Because the president put on a really terrific campaign. He's a great leader. The referendum yesterday was on leadership. That's why the big surprise in his margin of three million, in his reaching a majority when no president has done that in 16 years, including Bill Clinton.

HEMMER: After every debate, all three of them, went out and asked American people who they thought won, each time, John Kerry...

GIULIANI: What do they always say...

HEMMER: What explains that then, and how that translates yesterday?

GIULIANI: Who do they always say was the stronger leader, even after those debates? George Bush. What the country is looking for is leadership. They saw that in George Bush. At least three million more saw that in George Bush, or you know, depending on the state you were talking about. It was a -- by modern standards, it was big win. The fact is the president also understands, and I'm sure, that it's a divided country, and he has to also play a big part in reaching out to the Democratic side.

But what I'm saying is Senator Kerry can do a really good thing in that direction here by really conceding the inevitable, but now.

HEMMER: I know you believe Ohio is in Bush's category. And if that comes true, then there's the president here, and he serves another four years. Will you serve as a cabinet member?

GIULIANI: That's a conversation you have with the president. I'm not seeking a cabinet office. That isn't my desire.

HEMMER: Talked to him about it?

GIULIANI: Have not talked to him about it.

HEMMER: Would you like to?

GIULIANI: No, I like where I'm in. I'm in the security consulting business, and I enjoy it very much. I work with my colleagues that I survived the building that we were trapped in. A couple of them in this book that you have right here that we were looking at, which brought some of the (INAUDIBLE).

So, no. This is -- for me, this involvement in this campaign, which I was honored that the president allowed me to be involved, because I have such high personal regard for him, and I think he's so important now at a time in which we've got to defeat terrorism.

HEMMER: We've got to go. Thanks you for your time. We'll talk again, Rudy Giuliani.

GIULIANI: Thank you. Thanks a lot.

HEMMER: Back to Soledad again now in Columbus, Ohio.

All right, Bill, thanks.

Still to come this morning, it is the morning after. The election still hanging in the balance. Today all eyes, though, are on Ohio, where it stands here now, just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

Stay with us. We're back in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired November 3, 2004 - 08:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: On this morning, too close to call. President Bush captures the popular vote easily, but cannot claim victory without Ohio, where the counting continues there today.
Senator Kerry holding out until all the votes are counted, perhaps 11 more days. If Ohio breaks his way, he'll be the president. Whichever man is elected, though, he will be seeing red. With Republican gains in the Senate and in the House, a clear majority of governorships, America steadily getting more Republican on this AMERICAN MORNING.

ANNOUNCER: This is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.

HEMMER: Good morning.

Live in New York City this morning, we're continuing our coverage now, at 8:00 in the morning here in New York.

And as we await the day after, it is November 3rd. Still no call yet, but we await it. And as we go throughout the hour here, look to the bottom of your screen here. We'll have complete election results from all of the races across the country as we move throughout the morning here.

Soledad is in Columbus, Ohio awaiting results there -- good morning.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you, Bill.

And, in fact, it may feel a little bit like deja vu, but this time it's a battle for Ohio. Right now, CNN projects President Bush the winner of 254 electoral votes. He needs 270 to win a second term. Senator Kerry has 252 electoral votes. And despite races too close to call in Ohio, in New Mexico and Iowa, the Bush campaign is claiming those states for the Republicans.

Officials in Iowa don't expect to finish counting until tonight. The same deal in New Mexico. But, of course, we're talking about Ohio. Neither Iowa or New Mexico are really enough to win the White House. It is going to take Ohio's 20 electoral votes to make it all the way to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Here are the issues in Ohio, provisional and absentee ballots. Listen to Ken Blackwell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH BLACKWELL (R-OHIO), SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a very deliberate and cautious process and so, you know, I tell everybody just take a deep breath and relax. We can't predict what the results are going to be. We can only guarantee you that you're going to get an honest and fair count through our bipartisan system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That's Ken Blackwell, who's been up through the night as they try to hash through exactly what the numbers look like here in Ohio.

We're going to continue to follow this story, of course, the Republicans feeling very excited this morning.

But technically, officially, it is still a tossup -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, keep us posted there from Columbus.

We want to check in with both campaigns now.

From the White House, Suzanne Malveaux is tracking things there.

What's the latest this hour?

Good morning -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Bill.

It is a full it here at the White House. That is really White House speak for it is time for everybody to take a break, including the president, perhaps, to get a little nap in. We are told by Bush officials that about 9:00, in about 15 minutes from now, is when senior administration officials will reconvene to try to figure out what to do next.

Now, we are told that the president is going to address the American people later today, that he is going to declare victory. But they are saying out of respect for Kerry, they want him to take some time to look at those results and to concede before the president does that.

That was earlier this morning, about 5:30 in the morning, that his chief of staff went to the Ronald Reagan Building to address the thousands of people who were waiting to hear from the president, had been waiting all night, Card saying that he believed that the president was the clear winner.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW CARD, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: We are convinced that President Bush has won reelection with at least 286 electoral college votes. And he also had a margin of more than three and a half million popular votes.

(END VIDEO CLIP) MALVEAUX: Now, what began as really a Bush family reunion at the White House, everybody meeting at the residence, quickly turned into a strategy session as they realized what was developing in Ohio. That is when all of the aides gathered, told the president that they thought perhaps he should go out there and declare a victory. But the political calculus here, Bill, of course, is that they believe that they want the American people to see this as a legitimate result, as a legitimate election. They say why not just hold back and wait until Kerry concedes.

They truly believe that they have won Ohio. They say they're ahead by 140,000 votes, electoral votes.

HEMMER: Let me understand, what is the strategy, then, for Andy Card coming out and making that announcement at 5:00 in the morning today, then?

MALVEAUX: Well, it simply is to tell those folks to go home and to come back a little bit later. A lot of people have been waiting for a long time to hear from the president. There was a lot of buildup, a lot of anticipation here. But really the thinking here is it doesn't cost the White House anything just to pull back and to wait a little bit. They are trying to what they say unite the country around these results. They are trying to work with the Democrats in the future. The president knows that he is going to have to do that.

So why not just pull back, wait a little bit longer? They believe that it will give more legitimacy to these results.

HEMMER: But make no mistake about it, they believe they've won this campaign, right? That's what they're saying.

MALVEAUX: Absolutely. They say they talked with the secretary of state of Ohio. They say that the margin here that they have, the president's lead is insurmountable. They do not believe that even counting those provisional votes, taking them into consideration, will make any difference at all.

HEMMER: All right, Suzanne, thanks for that.

We'll get back in a touch in a moment there.

To the Kerry campaign in Boston and Kelly Wallace -- Kelly, what are you hearing?

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm hearing, Bill, that campaign advisers meeting at this very hour and campaign aides saying really nothing more than a top adviser said early today when I talked to him. This adviser saying the campaign this morning would be looking at the real numbers in Ohio to see what are the "realistic prospects" of Ohio turning around, that that would be an assessment Senator Kerry would have to make, that he'd have to look carefully at the numbers and make a decision.

In the words of his adviser, though, it sounds like it's not going to be a long period of time before such a decision is made. This adviser saying, "We won't make it a mystery too long."

The first signs that this campaign would not be conceding last night, Mary Beth Cahill, the campaign manager (AUDIO GAP) 250,000 remaining votes to be counted in Ohio, and that the campaign believed once all the votes were counted, John Kerry would win Ohio. Then a short time later it was Senator John Edwards coming out here at 2:30 in the morning to talk to those supporters who are still gathered here at Copley Square.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's been a long night, but we've waited four years for this victory. We can wait one more night.

John Kerry and I made a promise to the American people that in this election, every vote would count and every vote would be counted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: As for Senator Kerry, he remained out of sight at his Boston townhouse huddled (AUDIO GAP) his two daughters and also his staff. He did work late into the night, though, before polls closed. He did 38 interviews over four hours with television stations in key battleground states.

Earlier in the day we saw the senator casting a ballot for himself, of course, here in Boston, and he was somewhat reflective as he talked with reporters, some words that have a lot of resonance today, because he said whatever the outcome, "We will move forward no matter what, because that is who we are as Americans and that is what we need to do."

So still waiting to hear word from the Kerry campaign. The sense is, Bill, we're not likely to get any sense from the campaign about the next steps until 10:00 a.m. local time at the earliest -- Bill.

HEMMER: Well, we'll wait on that about two hours from now.

But after John Edwards made that announcement, I know it was a rainy night in Boston last night, was there a sense or a feeling that you could pick up from those who had gathered there?

WALLACE: Well, first of all, a number of people started leaving. It was a cold and rainy night and people started to feel somewhat depressed as the evening went on and as other news organizations, in fact, called Ohio for President Bush.

There were those that remained behind. They send sort of a fighting spirit, that they were going to move on and they made memories, Bill, of 2000, many believing that Al Gore wasn't aggressive enough, conceding a little bit in the beginning, that they needed to fight back more quickly in the beginning of 2000 so that the campaign wanting to push hard right away to make sure every vote is counted.

But right now, it's sort of a sense from the campaign waiting to see if the campaign believes they really have the numbers to try and turn the state around for Senator Kerry.

HEMMER: Let me try just again here.

Is there any sense of concession that you feel in Boston at this point?

WALLACE: Well, I can only go by this one adviser, who's a very top adviser to Senator Kerry, who was speaking, I thought, very realistically, saying we have to look at the numbers. He didn't say the numbers are completely on our side, basically said he didn't know. We have to look at the numbers, he said, and have to see if there is a realistic possibility when you look at the provisional ballots, when you look at the gap, the gap between President Bush and Senator Kerry, to see if it's possible, with the votes that still need to be counted, for John Kerry to be victorious.

So I got a sense of a very pragmatic approach here on the part of this adviser, but also saying it's up to Senator Kerry to look at the situation carefully, make an assessment and decide where to go from here -- Bill.

HEMMER: Kelly, thanks.

Kelly Wallace in Boston.

Back to Columbus now and more with Soledad there -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right, Bill, thanks.

CNN's Joe Johns also joins me in Columbus this morning.

He's been following developments all through the night right here.

And, Joe, of course, you're a native of Columbus, so thanks for having us to your hometown.

Let's talk a little bit about...

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome.

O'BRIEN: Thanks.

Let's talk a little bit about provisional ballots, because it really comes down to a numbers game, as we just heard Kelly report.

Give me a sense of what it means and what are the options here for the Kerry campaign.

JOHNS: Right.

Well, one of the big things, obviously, is the margin of victory the president now has. The secretary of state here in Ohio just put out some numbers. He says the margin at this hour is 134,019 votes in Ohio. That's the president leading John Kerry. Now, the question, of course, the key question everybody's talking about is the provisional votes. And what we do know is that right now there are about 135,000 or so ballots out there that are provisional ballots that were cast yesterday, on Election Day. Now, there are a number of counties that have not, in fact, put out their numbers on provisional ballots. That's 10 counties in Ohio, some of them...

O'BRIEN: How big are these counties we're talking about?

JOHNS: They're not...

O'BRIEN: I mean what -- because obviously the Kerry campaign is counting on some big numbers -- and would need some seriously big numbers here in order to have a chance.

JOHNS: They're not the largest. Franklin County, which is here in the Columbus area, has already reported its numbers. Cuyahoga County, which is Cleveland, has already reported how many provisional ballots it has. These are smaller counties. It's like Lucas County, which includes Toledo, Ohio; Mahoning County...

O'BRIEN: So the first...

JOHNS: ... which includes Youngstown and so on.

O'BRIEN: So the first step would be getting to that magic number of 134,019 votes, because if they don't even get there, it's over for the Kerry campaign. Then the next thing, of course, is how those votes go, because they don't open them for over a week.

JOHNS: Right.

They don't open them for 10 days and they do have to get to that magic number. But you also have to consider there are the absentee ballots from overseas that just had to be postmarked last night. Those have to be counted, too, and they have to be factored into the equation.

So it could be a while before we really know, you know, once...

O'BRIEN: So Ohio is the Florida of 2004.

We should also mention, you know, the noise behind you, I believe that's the young kids from City Year, who do volunteer work. Obviously warming up and getting ready to start their day, because, as you know, the sun is rising here. We're all getting under way and we still do not have, officially, a president of the United States.

Thanks, Joe.

Appreciate it -- Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Soledad, 12 minutes past the hour.

Let's continue our legal discussion now. Attorneys from both parties, we know, are in Ohio, watching and waiting for the provisional ballots and the absentee ballots to be counted.

Let's talk about it now here in New York City.

Harvard Professor Lawrence Tribe with us today and Attorney C. Boyden Gray with us, as well.

Good morning to both of you gentlemen.

LAWRENCE TRIBE, HARVARD UNIVERSITY PROFESSOR: Good morning.

C. BOYDEN GRAY, ATTORNEY: Good morning.

HEMMER: We had a late night last night. We stayed on until about 3:30 in the morning.

For you, what is the critical issue that you're measuring right now in Ohio?

TRIBE: The critical issue for me is an issue of principle. It's the question of whether people who go to the right precinct and who are simply not on registration lists, perhaps for a technical reason, and as a matter of federal and state law, are given a provisional ballot, have a right to have it counted. It's not a matter of recounting or anything. It's simply a matter of counting the votes.

And even if there were a landslide in some jurisdiction, one doesn't just say to the people in some borough ooh, we're going to stop counting even though you've got a right to vote because your votes won't make a difference.

Of course, in this case, we don't know for sure, when you add the absentee ballots and the provisional ballots, that they would not turn the tide. But in principle, we don't have to know that until and unless there is a concession by Senator Kerry, which is a political matter that he is, I'm sure, seriously considering whether he ought to or not to. Unless there's a concession, you notice the secretary of state of Ohio has not certified the state. Even though he's a Republican, he's not certified it for Bush. In fact, earlier he had said that certain people couldn't register and he had rejected the registrations because they were on the wrong thickness of paper and then he pulled that back.

We don't know whether a lot of these people are for technical reasons. And the last time, in 2000, when there were 100,000 provisional ballots in the State of Ohio, it turns out that 91 percent of them turned out to be perfectly valid votes.

HEMMER: One thing you said...

TRIBE: So I think we need to know.

HEMMER: One thing you said in there, for John Kerry it is a political question that he needs to answer. But if we state the legal side here, what are you measuring, based on what we're hearing out of Ohio this morning?

GRAY: Well, I think that it's virtually mathematically impossible and it is true, as Larry Tribe says, that in principle you should count these provisional votes. But I believe in 2000 these provisional ballots were checked for viability, but they weren't counted and no one knows today, I don't think, how many of those provisional votes were for Bush or for Gore because it didn't matter. And the same is true here, it just doesn't matter.

HEMMER: But you're saying the math doesn't add up.

GRAY: The math doesn't add up and you can insist on principle and put the country through 10 days or more of uncertainty and invite all kinds of other mischief. But I think that would not be the statesmanlike thing to do. I mean Nixon could have insisted on a recent in 1960. He didn't. There have been other examples of where presidents could have or candidates could have. I think it's over. As a complete practical matter, it's over and Kerry should concede.

But it is a political decision at this point.

HEMMER: Over?

TRIBE: I think that the old saying that it's not over until it's over is relevant here. By talking about politics, I didn't mean to suggest that that's my experience. As a matter of law, I don't even think as a matter of mathematics you can say for sure when you add the absentees and the provisional ballots, when you carefully count, we're not talking about recounting. We're not talking about challenging or contesting a result. You'll notice there are no lawyers running around here. It's just a question of the secretary of state counting these votes. And...

HEMMER: But based on what we're hearing and based on what we're talking about here, could this be over today?

GRAY: If Kerry concedes. Legally, I think Larry is right. Legally, this isn't over until this is a positive technical certification, which I think may not be possible for another 10 days or two weeks.

HEMMER: All right, G. Boyden Gray, thanks; and Lawrence Tribe.

TRIBE: Thank you.

HEMMER: I know you guys have had a very, very busy night.

I should point out, you're working with Harvard. But back in 2000, you did some work with Al Gore at the Supreme Court.

TRIBE: Right.

HEMMER: You did some work with George Bush from Tallahassee to Washington, D.C.

Thanks. GRAY: I think one of us had a little more luck than the other.

HEMMER: Thank you, gentlemen.

TRIBE: Thank you.

HEMMER: Good to see you this morning -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, Bill, it is another extended election. Is there anything that either candidate could or should have done to avoid this scenario? Kamber and May weigh in in just a moment.

HEMMER: Also, if Ohio is the Florida of 2004, what about the Sunshine State itself? We'll find out what, if anything, went wrong there.

That in a moment here on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.

Let's begin by taking a look at the electoral college board. You can see there, 254 electoral votes for President Bush; 252 for Senator Kerry. Ohio, where we are this morning, in green, meaning that it is just too close to call today.

For the second time in four years, a presidential race is in limbo a day after the election. It all hinges on Ohio and its 20 electoral votes.

We begin this morning from Washington, D.C. with some differing points of view.

Democratic consultant Victor Kamber joins us; also, former RNC Communications Director Cliff May.

Good morning to you guys.

Thanks for being with us.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to it.

Victor, do you think, considering the scenario that we have now, it's essentially a numbers game? Do you think Senator Kerry should concede or should he wait it out, see what happens in Ohio?

KAMBER: Frankly, I hope he waits it out and sees what happens in Ohio. I think every vote should be counted. I don't think we need to have long protracted court actions and the like, but we have a number of votes that still are out there. The fact that if it waits one, two or three days, so be it. It was a long, hard fought campaign by both sides. I'm certainly disappointed it wasn't clearer, clearer for my side. But I still believe there's an opportunity here and I'd like to make sure that every vote is counted. And if George Bush is the winner -- O'BRIEN: Well...

KAMBER: ... is the winner in the end, so be it. I'd like it to be a clear win.

O'BRIEN: You say one, two or three...

CLIFFORD MAY, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: If I...

O'BRIEN: ... days, but actually, Cliff, we're not talking necessarily one, two or three... MAY: Ten days.

O'BRIEN: We're talking 10 days, right? MAY: Yes. And my guess is that Senator Kerry is likely to concede rather than do that. And I'll tell you part of the reason why. As you say, it's a numbers game. But let's recall that President Bush in this election has won more votes than any presidential candidate in American history ever. He's won 51 percent. That's the first time any candidate has won a majority of the votes, not just a plurality, since 1988.

And if you, by the way, if you start looking at Ohio carefully, and, again, all the votes should be counted, you probably want to look at other states. The margin of difference, for example, in Pennsylvania is narrower than the margin of difference in Ohio right now. So it's a fairly convincing victory.

But, look, we've got a system set up where when you have close elections, it can be difficult.

KAMBER: It's interesting... MAY: But I think it's clear -- I know what you're going to say...

KAMBER: It's interesting... MAY: Look...

KAMBER: ... that Cliff wants to count the popular vote this cycle... MAY: No, no, no, no.

KAMBER: He didn't last cycle. MAY: Let me say, whoever wins the electoral vote absolutely wins the election. That's the way the game is played. I understand.

KAMBER: So let's wait and see. MAY: But, Victor, on the other side, let's also say that all your friends who have the "Re-Defeat Bush" signs up, they must be saying right now, Kerry should concede because he lost the popular vote.

KAMBER: No, all I'm -- listen, again I'll say it, whether it's five days or 10 days, let's just count all the votes and then get on with it. Ten days is not going to -- after having four months last time, after what we've gone through, after the way this country is as divided as it is, it would be better and healthier for the country to make sure. And if there are other states, Cliff, there are -- where there's numbers in question, so be it. Let's revisit those states.

That's what the process is.

O'BRIEN: Victor, let's...

KAMBER: Every American that voted should be counted.

O'BRIEN: You guys, we don't have a ton of time.

Victor, I want to ask you, what did the Democrats do wrong? When you look at the popular vote that President Bush has walked away with, a huge increase over 2000, I mean clear signs that something has changed.

(AUDIO GAP) not do?

KAMBER: Well, you know, that's a hard question and I'm not going to be a second guesser. First of all, I think the campaign did an extremely good job and, you know, there's going to be a lot of Democrats who are going to -- especially those who weren't in the campaign and who didn't make any money out of it and who are on the outside. They're going to second guess every one of those staffers that was on the inside.

I'm not one of those. I happen to believe the campaign worked hard, the candidate was terrific and did a terrific job. We won the three debates. We worked very hard. We ran against a man who was popular and who was president during a war time. It became tough.

Are there decisions that should have been made differently? Should he have gone to a different state at the last minute or concentrated on another state? Hindsight will tell us that as you analyze things. But as we stand today, I think the Democrats should be proud (AUDIO GAP) campaign; maybe a losing one but it was a very strong one.

O'BRIEN: That's going to be our final word this morning, guys.

Victor Kamber, Cliff May, we're out of time, so we'll check in with you first the next time.

Thanks, guys.

Appreciate it. MAY: Bye-bye.

O'BRIEN: Bill

HEMMER: All right, Soledad, 23 minutes past the hour.

Let's get a break here.

In a moment, we're going to get another take here in a moment about what is a ahead for us. Republican Rudy Giuliani is my guest here in the studio as we continue, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HEMMER: Good morning.

Welcome back, everyone.

Just to set the table again for you, President Bush still holding that slim lead in Ohio. The state remains too close to call for us here at CNN. This as the Bush campaign declaring victory in Ohio about four and a half hours ago, and all of its 20 electoral votes.

Here now in New York, the former mayor, Rudolph Giuliani, my guest here now, a Bush supporter.

And good morning to you.

RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: Good morning.

HEMMER: We heard the numbers from Ohio. Some say they don't add up, 134,000 difference between Bush and Kerry. Provisional ballots outstanding, about 135,000.

That to the side, you believe John Kerry should concede now.

GIULIANI: Yes, I do.

HEMMER: Why is that?

GIULIANI: Because it can't be done. I mean you've got to face reality. I mean the president leads with 136,000 votes. That's not a slim lead. That's a one or two point win. I conceded elections where I lost by 42,000 votes because I felt, you know, it wouldn't be right to put the city in jeopardy of contesting an election like that.

This isn't a 500 vote margin like we had in Florida. This is 136,000 votes.

HEMMER: But it appears...

GIULIANI: That's a substantial win.

HEMMER: Here's the Kerry campaign, they said, look, let's go to bed, let's sleep on it...

GIULIANI: Good...

HEMMER: ... let the dust settle, wake up tomorrow...

GIULIANI: God bless them.

HEMMER: ... which is today and...

GIULIANI: They got (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

HEMMER: ... then face it down.

GIULIANI: He's going to wake up this morning. He got his sleep now. It's time to concede. We've got to -- you've got a country at war (AUDIO GAP). You've got an election that's over. You've got a president that's gotten the largest vote of any president in history and, you know, the president's got a majority of the popular vote. Even Bill Clinton didn't achieve that.

So -- and you've got a state that's out of reach. When it's 136,000 votes and you have 130,000 or so provisional ballots -- and, remember, provisional ballots are ballots that get challenged. They're people who, where there's some infirmity in their voting status and that's why they're doing a provisional ballot. And typically a good number of them just get knocked out.

So that 135,000, 136,000 provisional is going to get knocked down to a much smaller number. And then he'd have to win 100 percent of them. And I can't imagine there's any place in the state where he won 100 percent of the vote or President (AUDIO GAP).

I think if he had, if he has good lawyers -- and I've done election lawyering, too -- if he's got good lawyers, they're going to tell him, you want to be a statesman, the way to be a statesman is to concede because when -- you're going to get counted out, so why not, you know, go out on a high plane? And why not start the whole idea of uniting by doing the -- by doing the big thing?

HEMMER: I watched you about 3:00 this morning. You were on another network. And you came out and your approach was essentially the times are different now, this is a country at war, there are big issues out there and the voter turnout impressed you, as well.

GIULIANI: Right.

HEMMER: When you factor all that together, I'm assuming that's what leads you to this strong opinion you have at this point.

GIULIANI: Yes. Ohio, sure.

HEMMER: Regarding...

GIULIANI: And also that it is isn't Florida four years ago. It isn't 500 votes. It's 136,000 votes. The president has won Ohio. And if you count it, if you count it 20 times or you delay it for three weeks, the president is going to win Ohio. It's inevitable.

HEMMER: Outside of Ohio, why do you...

GIULIANI: And therefore he wins the election.

HEMMER: Why do you believe Republicans were so successful yesterday?

GIULIANI: Because the president put on a really terrific campaign. He's a great leader. The referendum yesterday was on leadership. That's why the big surprise in his margin of three million, in his reaching a majority when no president has done that in 16 years, including Bill Clinton.

HEMMER: After every debate, all three of them, went out and asked American people who they thought won, each time, John Kerry...

GIULIANI: What do they always say...

HEMMER: What explains that then, and how that translates yesterday?

GIULIANI: Who do they always say was the stronger leader, even after those debates? George Bush. What the country is looking for is leadership. They saw that in George Bush. At least three million more saw that in George Bush, or you know, depending on the state you were talking about. It was a -- by modern standards, it was big win. The fact is the president also understands, and I'm sure, that it's a divided country, and he has to also play a big part in reaching out to the Democratic side.

But what I'm saying is Senator Kerry can do a really good thing in that direction here by really conceding the inevitable, but now.

HEMMER: I know you believe Ohio is in Bush's category. And if that comes true, then there's the president here, and he serves another four years. Will you serve as a cabinet member?

GIULIANI: That's a conversation you have with the president. I'm not seeking a cabinet office. That isn't my desire.

HEMMER: Talked to him about it?

GIULIANI: Have not talked to him about it.

HEMMER: Would you like to?

GIULIANI: No, I like where I'm in. I'm in the security consulting business, and I enjoy it very much. I work with my colleagues that I survived the building that we were trapped in. A couple of them in this book that you have right here that we were looking at, which brought some of the (INAUDIBLE).

So, no. This is -- for me, this involvement in this campaign, which I was honored that the president allowed me to be involved, because I have such high personal regard for him, and I think he's so important now at a time in which we've got to defeat terrorism.

HEMMER: We've got to go. Thanks you for your time. We'll talk again, Rudy Giuliani.

GIULIANI: Thank you. Thanks a lot.

HEMMER: Back to Soledad again now in Columbus, Ohio.

All right, Bill, thanks.

Still to come this morning, it is the morning after. The election still hanging in the balance. Today all eyes, though, are on Ohio, where it stands here now, just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

Stay with us. We're back in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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