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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Is Peterson Jury Deadlocked?; U.S. Forces Begin Operation to Retake Falluja
Aired November 8, 2004 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, HOST: Good evening from New York.
A dramatic day in a trial of Scott Peterson, as rumors swirl the jury is deadlocked.
360 starts now.
Indecision in the jury room? The judge in the Scott Peterson murder trial urges the jury to keep an open mind. What's going on behind closed doors?
Ten thousand U.S. forces officially begin the mission to retake Falluja. All of Iraq placed under state of emergency. We're live following Operation the Dawn.
The second-term curse, urban legend or real presidential problem? A 360 look back at history and what it could mean for George W. Bush.
Our special series, Starved for Perfection. Tonight, shocking Web sites promoting anorexia. Details on how to tell if your teen is living by the thin commandment.
And are you ready for the 360 challenge? If you think you know news, get ready to take our current events quiz.
ANNOUNCER: Live from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COLLINS: Good evening again from New York. I'm Heidi Collins. Anderson is off tonight.
Emotions in the Scott Peterson trial are running high tonight. The six men and six women of the jury are apparently deeply divided, and cannot agree whether Scott Peterson is innocent or guilty of murdering his wife, Laci, and their unborn child.
Today the jury -- or the judge, that is, ordered the jury back into court and told them to set aside personal biases to reach a verdict.
With the latest from the court, here now CNN's David Mattingly.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Called back into court on their third full day of deliberations, jurors in the Scott Peterson murder trial, according to observers, are showing signs of division. Judge Al Delucchi had to instruct the jurors a second time. He told them they are to be nonpartisan and impartial judges of the facts of the case. He cautioned jurors against expressing strong opinions so early in the process.
CHUCK SMITH, LEGAL ANALYST: It basically tells them, Hey, folks, get along, keep talking, don't become entrenched in your positions. Consider the views of your fellow jurors, and try to reach a verdict.
MATTINGLY: The possibility of a struggle in the jury room at such an early point in the deliberations does not bode well for prosecutors seeking a conviction. It's a potential problem compounded by the Monday morning arrival of Scott Peterson's boat. The jury had requested to reexamine the boat, but Peterson's defense attorney, Mark Geragos, unsuccessfully demanded a mistrial when jurors climbed inside the boat and at least one of them rocked it from side to side.
JEFF HAMMER, LEGAL ANALYST: The question is, were they simply examining it, or were they doing an experiment? If it turns out this was an experiment, that can be a fatal error. So although Geragos sounds angry, he's going to be the happiest lawyer in that courtroom now, because it goes badly and there's a conviction, he's got a ripe issue on appeal.
MATTINGLY: The jurors could have been trying to determine if it were possible for Peterson to dump his wife Laci's body weighted with cement anchors into San Francisco Bay, an act the defense claims would have caused the boat to capsize. The judge rejected a request from Geragos to show the jury a tape made by the defense demonstrating their point.
MATTINGLY: But for today, the jury again calling it quits at this hour. They'll get back to work tomorrow morning. Just before they left, they asked the court to see more information, more evidence that was presented in this case, in particular, recordings of phone conversations between Scott Peterson and his one-time girlfriend, Amber Frey.
So regardless of whatever problems this jury might be having, clearly they're still working toward (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- getting toward one type of verdict, Heidi.
COLLINS: Live from Redwood City this evening, David Mattingly. David, thanks so much for that.
And joining me to throw more light on the latest developments in the Scott Peterson trial is Jeffrey Toobin, CNN senior legal analyst.
Good evening to you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Heidi, see?
COLLINS: Wow. TOOBIN: Wow is right.
COLLINS: Well, all right, (audio interrupt) let's, the difference here between reexamining the boat, as we heard in David Mattingly's piece, or actually experimenting with it. I mean, how do you do one without the other?
TOOBIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this is just a bunch of silliness. They're allowed to do what they want with the boat. I mean, let's just keep our eye on something that's a little common sense. There's no water in the court.
I mean, so the fact of anything...
COLLINS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) difficult to recreate.
TOOBIN: ... you would -- it's not, it's not to going to be any reconstruct. I mean, the jury is not dumb as to think that if you got in the boat in the courtroom, it would make any difference as to how Scott could or could not have dumped Laci's body. I mean, that is just a silliness on the part of Geragos.
You know, everybody's tense during jury deliberations, they move for a mistrial at the drop of a hat. But this is meaningless.
COLLINS: But something that is not so meaningless is this division among...
TOOBIN: Absolutely, that's very serious.
COLLINS: ... the jury. I mean, could we really be talking about a hung jury here?
TOOBIN: Can you imagine? (UNINTELLIGIBLE), we could. Now, it doesn't mean that we are going to have a mistrial, because, you know, it often works out that when a judge says, Come on, folks, you know, listen to each other, it works, and they get to a verdict.
But what's so unusual about this is, this is only the third day...
TOOBIN: ... of deliberation in a trial that went on for more than 20 weeks. That the judge is worried enough about a split at this early stage suggests something is seriously wrong with the jury.
COLLINS: Now, what about this dynamite charge now, or this Allen charge that we've been hearing a little bit about? Explain that.
TOOBIN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it's called a dynamite charge because judges use it to try to break through a logjam, and they say things -- it varies state by state, but the gist is the same, which is, they say, Look, don't give up your conscience, but listen to the other jurors, consider the evidence, don't be afraid to change your mind based on the evidence, basically encouraging hold-out jurors to get with the program, but sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
COLLINS: So if there's just one or two people, possibly holding out, would they -- is it possible they can be replaced with alternates?
TOOBIN: No, no. I mean, if they are deliberating, if they are actually participating in the deliberation process and just simply disagree about the evidence, you can't replace them. If you had a situation where a jury would, a juror wouldn't enter the jury room or something like that, then maybe. But in a death penalty case, you probably wouldn't even be able to get a replacement for that kind of juror.
Judges understandably are very meticulous about getting unanimous jury verdicts when the stakes are so high.
COLLINS: Jeffrey Toobin, I know you'll be watching it very closely for us.
COLLINS: Yes. All right. CNN senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Thanks so much tonight.
Want to get to some breaking news now immediately out of Iraq. A major offensive against insurgents is under way tonight in Falluja.
We have CNN's Jane Arraf. She is there embedded with U.S. troops, keeping her head down, we hope, while she speaks to us now by telephone.
Jane, what is the very latest? What can you tell us at this point?
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point the offensive has been going on for hours. And I'm not sure if you hear those thuds in the background, the sky just lit up over the city of Falluja. There are continued airstrikes and ground strikes. Quite a heavy bombardment.
As forces here -- we're with an Army unit -- as they try to soften up the insurgents to move further into the city; we started out on the northeast corner where they found what they had expected and feared, which was a string of improvised explosive devices, booby trapped, waiting for the troops to come in.
In that sector, very few civilians. And we had been told that they had not been allowed in that sector by the insurgents who have been rigging these homemade bombs around the city. The battle continues, and is expected to continue for some time. All the soldiers going into this. And this is a massive effort. Have been told that this is a historic battle. This is their chance to rid the country of the insurgency.
COLLINS: Jane, you talk about the resistance, you talk about the foreign fighters. Anymore you can tell us about that, as far as characterizing the size of it and how intense it is?
ARRAF: Well, military officials are putting varying figures on how many men they believe they're fighting, essentially, and they vary from 1,200 to 3,000. On the lowest tier, although a lot of these probably would have fled the city by now, it's people who are doing it just for the money. They are unemployed, perhaps angry young men, and they get a few dollars for shooting a rocket-propelled grenade.
There are extreme religious fundamentalists, who are doing it because they believe that it is their religious duty. There are foreign fighters. There are former Baath Party elements, which are a large part of this -- this is a Sunni stronghold and a very conservative city. And there are the foreign fighters, probably fewer than had first been believed, but this city, over the past few months, since the end of the war, in fact, has become a magnet for insurgents of all sorts, a breeding ground for different cells. And many military officials believe that it has become a command and control center for the entire insurgency in Iraq.
COLLINS: Jane, quickly, we know that earlier in the day the troops were able -- U.S. troops were able to take over one hospital and two key bridges. Again, in talking about this resistance, are they able to take over more positions of importance, or would you say they are at a standby or a standstill as of late?
ARRAF: They're not at a standstill so much. They are certainly going forward. As for -- we're not entirely clear as to what targets they may have taken in other sectors of the city. Certainly, they had a lot of objectives. And the Iraqi security forces are playing a large part in that.
Those are the people -- we are with, for instance, Iraqi commandos, and the Iraqi security forces, the intervention forces are the ones who are going into places like mosques and schools, where U.S. forces say they've been targeted from.
As for the major targets that they have, most of those are access to the city, and the city has, indeed, been breached.
COLLINS: All right, Jane Arraf, our Baghdad bureau chief coming to us by telephone tonight near the Falluja area. We certainly appreciate your time, Jane, and please, please do keep safe tonight.
We're going to have a little bit more on this story coming up later in this show from the Pentagon, and Jamie McIntyre's standing by for that in just a moment.
Meanwhile, though, a lava dome growing bigger and bigger inside Mount St. Helens. That tops our look at news cross-country.
Scientists monitoring the volcano say the lava dome has grown to the size of a 30-story building. The volcano rumbled back to life in late September. Scientists say an eruption is possible at any time.
Washington, D.C., Hinckley hearing. A lawyer for John Hinckley told a federal judge today his client should be allowed longer visits away from the mental hospital he's lived in since trying to assassinate President Reagan in 1981. Hinckley wants to take four-day unsupervised visits with his parents. Government lawyers oppose the request.
East St. Louis, Illinois, former NHL player sentenced to seven and a half years in prison for plotting to kill his agent. In July, Mike Danton, who played for the St. Louis Blues, pleaded guilty to the attempted murder-for-hire plot.
Salisbury, Maryland, six-time Olympic gold medalist swimmer Michael Phelps charged with DUI. The 19-year-old tells "ESPN" magazine he made a mistake, going on to say what he did was dangerous and unacceptable. In August, at the Athens games, Phelps won a record-tying eight medals.
West Palm Beach, Florida, actor Burt Reynolds sues his ex- girlfriend. Burton alleges Pamela Seals (ph) threatened to blackmail him. The lawsuit says the ex threatened to go public with a phony claim of abuse if he didn't pay her off. Reynolds and Seals were an item for 10 years but never married.
And that's a look at stories cross-country tonight.
360 next, mission Falluja, U.S. troops pound away at the heart of the insurgency in Iraqi. We'll go live to the Pentagon to find out U.S. strategy.
Plus, Starved for Perfection, shadowy Web sites that actually teach young women how to be anorexic, part of our special series, Starved for Perfection: Thin at All Costs.
Also tonight, from Watergate to Monica Lewinsky, the landmines that mark second terms. So how will history treat George Bush? That's raw politics.
But first, your picks, the most popular stories on CNN.com right now.
COLLINS: As Jane Arraf just told us, live from Falluja, the serious business of fighting is now under way. It's been building for weeks.
For an overview of what exactly is going on and what exactly the Pentagon is hoping to achieve, here now CNN senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When the long-threatened offensive finally kicked off, U.S. troops were pumped.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we're going to smack the crap out of them. That'd be nice. MCINTYRE: With 10,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers and more than 2,000 Iraqi troops moving on Falluja, the Pentagon is confident the estimated 3,000 insurgents can be routed.
But Pentagon officials are downplaying any suggestion the battle for Falluja is a final showdown with the insurgents.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I would not think of it that way. And I think it would be a mistake for anyone. Listen, these folks are determined. These are killers. They chop people's heads off.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: If there were a silver bullet, we'd have shot that a long time ago. There is not a silver bullet. This is very challenging work.
MCINTYRE: The U.S. is highlighting the Iraqi role in retaking Falluja, even dropping the Pentagon's name for the operation, Phantom Fury, for one picked by Iraq's interim prime minister, Operation Dawn. There have been some reports of Iraqi troops deserting or failing to report for duty, but the Pentagon it's an isolated problem.
RUMSFELD: Well, I think what one ought to expect from time to time, we're going to see this type of thing, and on the other hand, there have been some commando units and some rad control elements and some regular Iraqi forces and police forces that have done a very good job.
MCINTYRE: The other big question is whether the insurgents and their leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, will simply melt away and regroup somewhere else. Today, General George Casey, the top commander in Iraq, said they may try that, but I don't know that we'll let them, Heidi.
COLLINS: CNN senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre tonight. Jamie, thanks so much.
A strong earthquake rocks Taiwan, and that tops our look at global stories in the uplink.
In Taipei, a magnitude 5.7 quake shook buildings for about 15 seconds and woke people from their sleep. No injuries or serious damage was reported.
Eindoven (ph), the Netherlands, Muslim school bombed, heavily damaging the front door and facade. No one was injured in the predawn attack, which comes days after the arrest of a Muslim radical accused of killing filmmaker Theo Van Gogh. Police say Van Gogh was killed for his film critical of how women are treated in Muslim society.
Northern Uganda, immense suffering. Medics Without Borders says there are staggering death rates in refugee camps, since there's little access to basic health care. The agency says thousands of children and adults are dying from preventable diseases like malaria and diarrhea.
Oslo, Norway, chilling research on global warming. A new study by eight nations shows an Arctic meltdown. Scientists say rising temperatures have already melted 386,100 square miles of Arctic sea ice, an area bigger than Texas and Arizona combined. An environmentalist says skeptics, polluting industries, and President Bush can't run away from this one.
And in London, following in Mum's footsteps, Madonna's 8-year-old daughter, Lourdes, has written a story for a children's Christmas book. Other celebrities contributing to the book include Sharon Osbourne and David Hasselhoff. The money raised will be for the fight against cancer.
And that's tonight's uplink.
360 next, Starved for Perfection, the gruesome world of Internet groups that teach others to be anorexic. Part of our special series, Thin at All Costs.
Also tonight, out and out. New Jersey's governor won't apologize for being gay but says farewell.
And a little later, possible deadlock in the Scott Peterson trial. What's holding up the verdict? We'll ask a juror who was kicked off the case.
And in a moment, today's 360 challenge. How closely have you been following today's news? We'll get to it after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE ABCS OF EATING DISORDERS")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I understand that your eating disorder is just a symptom of deeper problems. I understand that you're hurting, and you need help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't try to analyze me, Miss Davis. I'm thin because I want to be. I have a pro-anorexic Web site because I want people who are like me to know that they not alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: Sharing the experiences of anorexia online. It's an alarming fact, Web sites like the one mentioned in that scene from Fox's "Boston Public," do exist, and they've been seen to encourage potentially deadly eating habits.
Tonight, we'll focus on these so-called Pro Ana, Pro Mia Web sites as we begin a new series called Starved for Perfection: Thin at All Costs.
Some 7 million women and 1 million men suffer from eating disorders, a condition that has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness. And as Sanjay Gupta reports, for the victims, these Web sites provide a secret and dangerous haven.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE ABCS OF EATING DISORDERS")
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't take breaks between purges. How to purge faster or quieter? Try using a spoon instead of your finger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The messages, the advice they trade on the Web, haunting.
MARNA PALMER, IN RECOVERY FOR ANOREXIA AND BULIMIA: The 12- and 13-year-old girls that would come on saying, I'm so fat, please teach me how to be anorexic, teach me how to be bulimic.
GUPTA: The teachers, Web sites called Pro Ana and Pro Mia, means pro-anorexia and pro-bulimia, thousands of them on the Web, conferring a new and dangerous message about eating disorders, saying that they're actually a good thing.
LYNN GRETE, NATIONAL EATING DISORDERS ASSOCIATION: Encouraging people to be ill is really what it is, and it's like a secret cult, it's a secret society, and word spreads around, and people have a lingo now.
GUPTA: And like cults, pro-ana sites have their own language, like "thinspiration," photos of emaciated models, and referring to anorexia and bulimia as a lifestyle, not an illness.
Twenty-two-year-old Marna Palmer was a regular visitor to sites like these. She's battled eating disorders since she was 13.
PALMER: I was laxatives, spending four hours a day at the gym. At my worst, I was throwing up seven or eight times a day.
GUPTA: Even as she recovers today, Marna understands why girls who aren't in recovery resort to pro-ana Web sites.
PALMER: When you feel like you can't talk to anybody and you don't want to get treatment, then these girls understand.
GUPTA: Some Web sites provide a crutch by being outlets for people to talk about something usually held in secret.
GRETE: And we need to guide all of these people to treatment, get them off the Web site, or put them on the Web sites to find where they can get help.
PALMER: I think it's something that will always be with me. I think I'm going to have to work very hard. I think I'm always going to obsess about food and weight.
GUPTA: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.
COLLINS: Our next guest knows a lot about these Web sites. Filmmaker Joanna Popper is a former bulimic herself who's now working to raise awareness about all eating disorders. Her documentary, "The ABCs of Eating Disorders" examines such diseases and gives advice on how to overcome them.
She's joining me now from Miami.
Good evening to you. Thanks for being with us, Joanna.
You know, when you first, when you saw that story, I mean, if you're not familiar with eating disorders, it's just shocking. I mean, what is your take on all of this? I mean, you have been there, and when you see that someone is encouraging another human being for possible death, I mean, how does it make you feel?
JOANNA POPPER, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: It's very shocking, Heidi. It's very alarming. It's very threatening to many. The fact that they're calling it a lifestyle when it is, in fact, a deathstyle, is very scary and very hard for others to understand. Anorexia is the leading cause of death for young women, and they're still calling it a lifestyle.
So it's very alarming, and these sites are very controversial today. You know, we have -- there's issues around whether or not they should be banned on the Web, or whether that actually makes them more exciting or underground, you know, to individuals who are looking for this type of support.
COLLINS: Yes, I mean, we just heard that in some of the words in the story that we aired. "Thinspiration," "thin commandments," almost like a secret society.
COLLINS: Is that part of the appeal?
POPPER: I think it is, at some level. What we've learned from making the documentary is that anorexics tend to be perfectionists, they're constantly striving to meet the demands of others, whether that be their parents or their teachers. Now, if you're always looking at how to meet the demands of others, at some point you might feel the need to take control back, and to rebel a little bit.
And what some people do is think that they're doing this with their food and with their exercise.
COLLINS: You know, we have a clip from your film, again, "The ABCs of Eating Disorders," where a mother and daughter reveal their problem. Let's go ahead and take a look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE ABCS OF EATING DISORDERS") UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I never saw what other people saw. No matter how much weight I lost, I would still think that I needed to lose more. I used to get on the scale five, six times a day. Thirty years of trying to be skinny. I have transferred this problem over to my older daughter, Kate, who's 27 now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wake up in the morning, and the first thing I do is, I look at my stomach to see if it got smaller from the day before. I lay in bed and I feel like parts of my skin touching one another. You look in the mirror, and you're just utterly disgusted at everything you see, every single time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COLLINS: It's just, it's got to be so exhausting. But, you know, I think typically a lot of people, when they think about this disease, they think of teenagers. What did you learn about that when you did this film?
POPPER: Well, yes, that's traditionally thought of, it's, you know, sort of upper middle-class white young women. One of the things we learned is that the two fastest-growing groups today of individuals with eating disorders are middle-aged women and 7-, 8-, and 9-year- olds, and it's also starting to hit men as well.
COLLINS: Well, all right, so if there is someone out there who says, You know what? This is a lifestyle for me, which we all know and want to make sure that we portray to our viewers, it is not, and it's very, very dangerous, how, what advice do you give them? I mean, do you tell them, Go to your doctors?
POPPER: I think that at some level, the choice to recover, the choice to seek treatment, an individual has to come to that choice on their own. It can't be forced upon them. At the same time, I think it's the responsibility of all of us, and this is why we did the documentary, was to get the education out there. This is not a lifestyle. It's a deadly psychological disorder.
COLLINS: Joanna Popper, we appreciate your time here tonight.
POPPER: Thank you very much for having us on. Thank you for doing this important education.
COLLINS: Thank you. You bet.
In fact, our Starved for Perfection series continues tomorrow. We're going to look at the so-called perfect pregnancy. Some women go to extremes to avoid natural weight gain when having a baby. Then on Wednesday, we examine the image problems men face. On Thursday, models under intense pressure to stay thin. Some of them expose their diet of deception. And on Friday, don't believe what you see. How magazines create a beauty that's simply unattainable.
Starved for Perfection, all this week on 360.
Indecision in the jury room? The judge in the Scott Peterson murder trial urges the jury to keep an open mind. What's going on behind closed doors?
The second-term curse, urban legend or real presidential problem? A 360 look back at history and what it could mean for George W. Bush.
And are you ready for the 360 challenge? So if you think you know news, get ready to take our current events quiz when 360 continues.
COLLINS: 360 next, word this jury in the Scott Peterson case might be deadlocked. A former juror in the case talks to us about the personalities at play and what might be going on behind closed doors.
But first, tonight's "Reset." In New York for the first time, the U.S. government has approved stun gun use on a commercial airline. Taser International says it got the OK for its electric stun guns on Korean Airlines flights to defend against hijackings and other threats.
In Washington, a federal judge has halted the military tribunal trial of Osama bin Laden's driver, saying a decision must be made on whether the defendant is a prisoner of war under the Geneva Conventions. The Bush administration has said the Geneva Conventions do not apply to all al Qaeda members and is planning to appeal.
In North Haven, Connecticut, the daughter of former presidential hopeful Howard Dean is out of the hospital after being treated for injuries suffered in a highway crash. Anne Dean was a passenger in an SUV that flipped over on Interstate 91 yesterday. There were no fatalities.
In Lansing, Michigan, Dr. Death claims to be too sick for prison. An attorney for Jack Kevorkian has asked that his client be released or pardoned by Michigan's governor. The assisted suicide advocate is serving a 10- to 25-year sentence for second-degree murder.
And that's tonight's "Reset."
We're also following a potential deadlock in the Scott Peterson trial. The judge ordered the jury back into court today and told them to put aside personal biases to reach a verdict.
Peterson is accused of killing his pregnant wife Laci in their California home and then dumping her body in San Francisco Bay. And who better to talk about the jury's potential problems than a former juror. Justin Falconer was dismissed from the jury back in June after he was seen making comments to Laci Peterson's brother. Tonight in "Justice Served," Justin Falconer joins us from Kansas City. And weighing in from Chicago is trial consultant Paul Lisnek.
Gentlemen, good evening to both of you. Justin, I want to begin with you, if I could. As we said, you were part of this jury. If they are having trouble deciding on a verdict here, tell me why. What this jury all about? JUSTIN FALCONER, FORMER JUROR: Well, let me tell you, there's a lot of -- you know, everybody in that jury is very, you know, intelligent, they're very opinionated, and I think after sitting there for 5 1/2 months listening to the things that they've been, you know, listening to, I think it's pretty fair to say that they probably got their own ideas. And unless other people agree with those ideas, you know, they're going to stick to them, and, you know, whether or not they agree or not.
So I think to say that, you know, they're deadlocked, you know, I'm sure there's some pretty strong emotions going on in that courtroom and -- or in that deliberating room, and, you know, I'm sure that they've got a lot to talk about.
COLLINS: And strong emotions might be added to. Paul, because of the jury being sequestered this weekend, I mean, that's pretty tough on some people. Do you think this could be a result of, as we say, just a tough weekend?
PAUL LISNEK, TRIAL CONSULTANT: Well, I think probably it's been building over the last couple of days, Heidi. I mean, clearly what this means is that -- if it's good news for anybody, it's good news for the defense, because the jurors are having difficulty coming to terms.
Justin's right, people will, after a while, ground themselves into their position. I would love to know the differentiation between, you know, if somebody is sort of standing alone. Much harder to stand alone. But if a few people are together, those are the dynamics. I guarantee you, though, you're right, it was a long weekend for them.
COLLINS: Yeah, and we just don't have those details yet. But Justin, back to you now. The jury foreman is reportedly this juror number five. And although he's not practicing, we know that he's a doctor and a lawyer. This is the guy who replaced you, in fact. Tell me a little bit more about him, if you could.
FALCONER: He is a -- he was a really nice guy. He was quiet, kept to himself a little bit. He did, you know, speak to us, and, you know, he talked to the group every now and again. But the man took dictation in that courtroom. He went through 19 notebooks. We would give him a hard time, because he's just filling up notebooks and running pens out of ink. And you know, we just kind of were, you know, joking around with him about how many notes he's taking. So it doesn't surprise me at all that he's the foreman. You know, he seems really intelligent and he seems really fair, and, you know, that's at least what I got of him.
COLLINS: Yeah, and, Paul, in fact, you say you weren't surprised at all, that juries, in fact, like to have someone who has a type of experience as a lawyer act as the foreman.
LISNEK: Well, they do, because first of all, he's not only a lawyer, but also a doctor, and he's somebody who -- I'm sure he was there to say, hey, I'll be happy to serve as foreperson. And what it also means is he'll guarantee that everybody is having their peace, while he's also, I'm sure, providing some structure to those discussions. I guarantee it.
COLLINS: And, Justin, back to you. You were dismissed. You said at that point that you really hadn't seen anything that would allow you to convict Scott Peterson. You change your mind at all at this point?
FALCONER: No, I really haven't. You know, I think there's a lot of emotion involved in this case. And I think if you base yourself on emotion, I think it's easy to convict Scott Peterson. But I think if you really look at the evidence that's involved in this case, and the lack of evidence that's involved in this case, I think it's very difficult to convict him.
I'm sure that a lot of the jurors are emotional, because they saw the pictures of Connor, they saw the pictures of Laci, and they know that he was lying and having an affair. And that alone is just, you know, really upsets you and makes you want to kind of go over and slap the guy upside his head. But you know, it's just -- if you look at the evidence alone and you just kind of take out all the other stuff, it's really difficult to put somebody in jail on speculation.
LISNEK: Well, and Heidi?
COLLINS: Yes, go ahead.
LISNEK: We know the jurors have asked to see the boat. We know they're looking at pieces of evidence. So Justin's right. You have got to focus in on the evidence, step away from the emotions.
The good news here is that these jurors do seem to be doing what they're supposed to do, by asking for various pieces of evidence. The kick in the pants the judge gave them today was another reminder that their focus has to be on the task at hand and the evidence, not on the emotional interplay between them.
COLLINS: Tough for everybody, especially the victim's family members, that's for sure. To the both of you tonight, Justin Falconer and Paul Lisnek, thanks so much, guys.
LISNEK: Thanks, Heidi.
FALCONER: Have a good night.
COLLINS: 360 next, the perils of a second term. Why President Bush should beware of four more years in "Raw Politics."
Plus, a governor comes out of the closet, facing a scandal and planning to resign. Three months later, "How Quickly We Forget."
Also tonight, why some folks are telling the world they're sorry.
And in a moment, today's "360 Challenge." How closely have you been following today's news? Find out next.
COLLINS: Time now for today's 360 challenge. Be the first to answer all three questions correctly and win a 360 T-shirt. Number one, in the past 30 years how many square miles of arctic glaciers have melted?
Number two, what politician's daughter was in a car accident this weekend?
Number three, pro-ana Web sites promote what?
To take the challenge, log on to CNN.com/360 then click on the answer link. Answer first, you'll get the shirt. Find out Friday's challenge winner and tonight's answers coming up.
COLLINS: The Bush administration announced today that Andrew Card will stay on as White House chief of staff. The makeup of the president's second-term cabinet is just one issue that must be decided in the coming weeks. And while the White House claims that President Bush's re-election gave him a clear mandate to pursue his conservative agenda, as Judy Woodruff reports, history has some cautionary tales for two-term presidents in politics.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm looking forward to serving this country for four more years.
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): And looking forward is what President Bush ought to do, because if he looks back at the history of presidents' second terms, he'll get a very bleak picture. Lyndon Johnson inherited Vietnam from John F. Kennedy and served one additional term where the conflict became his quagmire.
The Watergate impeachment for Richard Nixon in his second term.
RICHARD NIXON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not a crook.
WOODRUFF: And Monica-gate for Bill Clinton.
BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky .
WOODRUFF: Often presidents who are reelected win by wider margins in their second term, leading them to believe they got a mandate.
BUSH: I earned capital in the campaign, political capital and now I intend to spend it.
WOODRUFF: And they overreach, forgetting that political popularity can disappear very fast. And eventually they have to face a new reality.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: They are lame ducks. They can't run again, so even members of their own party begin to seek their own way in politics and the president instantly loses clout simply because he can't run again.
WOODRUFF: Second-term presidents often reach for a legacy in the judgment of history.
RONALD REAGAN, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
WOODRUFF: After years of Cold War, Ronald Reagan warmed relations and eventually the wall did come down. President Clinton pressed hard for an ambitious peace plan in the Middle East without lasting success. Like many before him, this second-term president has many challenges ahead.
SCHNEIDER: There are big pitfalls in his second term, the biggest one of all is Iraq.
WOODRUFF: The way President Bush will handle them, analysts say, will either continue or end the second-term curse. Judy Woodruff, CNN, Washington.
COLLINS: Earlier I spoke to the "CROSSFIRE" guys about the president's agenda, the war in Iraq, and how it will all play out in a second term.
COLLINS: Paul, I want to begin with you. If the president does choose to expand the war on terror and the Democrats resist, do they not risk being seen as obstructionists?
PAUL BEGALA, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": It depends on where and how he prosecutes it. A whole lot of American, I think the majority, certainly in the exit polls, not very accurate exit polls but you get a sense that at least half the country, we were going in the wrong direction in Iraq. The argument the Democrats made, some of them before the war, was that invading Iraq would be a distraction from the real war against al Qaeda. There's increasing evidence that we were right. Now the president won the election, he's in charge of foreign policy, and we support our country, but I don't think Democrats should give this president a blank check to go off on any more foreign misadventures given how desperately he has blotched it in Iraq.
COLLINS: Bob, is that what this is about?
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": It's really incredible that after this election and the election surprise, Paul, not only the outcome but the size of the outcome, the size of President Bush's advantage, they're still talking about Iraq being a disadvantage. I've been critical of the president on Iraq, but there's no question it was an advantage. Every poll indicated, and I'm not talking about these silly exit polls, but every serious poll indicated the American people trusted President Bush a lot more than Senator Kerry on Iraq, so obviously he has a mandate to do what he wants in Iraq. Now, as far as starting into new preemptive strikes in North Korea and Iran, that is a horse of a very different color. I think one war at a time, maybe one war too many, but it's enough.
COLLINS: Let's move forward if we could, gentlemen. In fact, I know you know, Karl Rove just yesterday laid out some of the president's priorities, if you will. And they talked about tax code, they talked about Social Security, and lawsuits. But Bob, let me ask you, how can the president push that agenda at this time when he's still trying to remain conciliatory with the Democrats?
NOVAK: Who said he's trying to remain conciliatory with the Democrats? He says he wants to be a nice fellow. He is a nice fellow. But being -- accepting the agenda of the people you defeated is stupidity. He says he wants to spend political capital, and I certainly hope he does. There's two -- I think the problem with second-term presidents is they don't do enough. It's not that they do too much. And I think one of the -- two of the most exciting proposals in my almost half a century in Washington is radical reform of Social Security, which is a fraud system, and radical reform of this terrible tax system. Can you imagine, even the thought of getting rid of the income tax, how exciting that would be for America?
BEGALA: How exciting would it be for upper income Americans. It would have to be replaced with a confiscatory sales tax that working people would have to pay the brunt of. That's why the money the elite wanted so desperately -- but this is the fight the Democrats should want. The president's not going to accommodate Democrats. He doesn't have to. He did win fair and square, and I never said that after 2000. So he's going to -- believe me, I'd bet a lot of money on this. He's going to come right at the Democrats and roll right over them, and the only thing he's going to respect is strength.
If the Democrats just sort of say, please, Mr. President, work with me, he's going to crush them. If they stand up and fight him then they'll be able to assert their rights as well.
NOVAK: The problem is the talk show hosts and the chattering class, of which Paul Begala is a preeminent member, are very, very tough, but I talked to the Democratic politicians and they're weepy and wimpy. They're scared to death of what comes next.
BEGALA: I think Bob is right, by the way. I don't know how tough it is to be on TV and yap, but I'm worried that there's not enough spine in my Democrats on Capitol Hill. But we'll see if I'm right and Bob's right.
COLLINS: Interesting. All right. To the two of you, thank you so much. As always, guys, Paul Begala, Bob Novak. The "CROSSFIRE" gentlemen. Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE) COLLINS: New Jersey's Governor James McGreevey will step down next week, having been scarred by scandal. Today he gave his formal farewell. It's been a mere three months since McGreevey stunned the nation by admitting to having an affair with a man. They were calls for his resignation then, but McGreevey battled to stay in office and prevented a special election. Now he's held onto the office for the Democrats.
The governor and his family will never be able to shake the memory of this scandal, but "How Quickly We Forget."
GOV. JIM MCGREEVEY (D), NEW JERSEY: All farewells are unique, and this is not an exception.
COLLINS (voice-over): Jim McGreevey said goodbye to his staff and the citizens of the state he's served as governor for nearly three years, stressing the successes of his short tenure, apologizing again for the scandal that put an end to his political plans.
MCGREEVEY: I have to begin today with humility by simply saying, I am sorry. So, so sorry that mistakes in my judgment made this day necessary for us all.
COLLINS: Those mistakes were made public on August 12th, when the married 47-year-old McGreevey, his wife Dina by his side...
MCGREEVEY: And so my truth is that I am a gay American.
COLLINS: More than that, he admitted to an affair with a man. This man, it was later revealed, Golan Cipel, an Israeli citizen McGreevey appointed to a top post in the state's Department of Homeland Security.
Then another revelation, word that Cipel, who says he is not gay, was suing the governor for sexual harassment. Cipel dropped his lawsuit and left New Jersey for Israel, where the FBI questioned him about accusations he was trying to shake the governor down.
Dina McGreevey reportedly moved out of the governor's mansion and into a new home with their 2-year-old daughter, but without her husband.
In just one week, another Democrat, State Senate President Richard Codey, takes over the top job, and the governor...
MCGREEVEY: To be clear, I am not apologizing for being a gay American.
COLLINS: It's been just three months since the bombshell fell. How quickly we forget.
COLLINS: 360 next, what can make a person want to apologize to the world? We'll tell you why these people are so sorry, after the break.
COLLINS: If you had one message to send to the world, what would it be? Well, in the aftermath of John Kerry's defeat in the presidential election, some of his supporters are reaching out to our global neighbors and apologizing. Jeanne Moos has that story.
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The presidential election was sure no love story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Love means never having to say you're sorry.
MOOS: But some people are so sorry about the outcome of the election that the losers are apologizing to the rest of the world.
JAMES ZETLEN, SORRYEVERYBODY.COM: It says, "sorry, world, we tried."
MOOS: Signed, "half of America." Neuroscience student James Zetlen took this picture, put it on a Web site called SorryEverybody, and hundreds of other apologies poured in.
"Sorry, world, we deserve it. You don't." "Sorry, world, at least you don't have to live with him." "Sorry, world, scientists are sad, too."
Some said sorry over and over and over again.
ZETLEN: That's my girlfriend.
MOOS: Florida's seniors are sorry. Parents made their kids say they're sorry. Jesus is portrayed as sorry.
Apparently, even Chihuahuas are saying, "sorry, amigos, I'm sorry that I'm smarter than 59 million Americans. P.S., my brain is the size of a walnut."
It's one thing for the British press to call Americans dummies, but now Americans are beseeching the rest of the world, please don't give up on us. "You youngsters will have a lot to be sorry about. At least we don't have to live much longer." An apology made out of candies, cookies and crackers makes you want to eat your words. Gee, wonder if the Web site is getting much hate mail.
MOOS: Irate Bush supporters have taken Zetlen's head and replaced it with Saddam Hussein's.
ZETLEN: Well, they've changed my sign to say a lot of things. My favorite was "sorry, world for this pathetic attempt to impress French chicks." MOOS: Some apologists are upbeat. "Sorry, y'all, we'll do better next time." "My dad is a Republican, and for this I apologize."
Occasionally, someone from the rest of the world accepts the apologies.
(on camera): And for all of those who voted for President Bush...
(voice-over): Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
COLLINS: All right, Jeanne Moos. 360 tomorrow, the perfect pregnancy. Women desperate to limit weight gain and be gorgeous. Part of our special series, "Starved for Perfection: Thin at All Costs."
Now the 360 "Challenge." Here's another look at tonight's questions. In the past 30 years, how many square miles of Arctic glaciers have melted? Number two, what politician's daughter was in a car accident this weekend? And pro-ana Web sites promote what?
The answers right after this.
COLLINS: Time now for the answers to today's 360 challenge. Number one, in the past 30 years, how many square miles of Arctic glaciers have melted? The answer, 386,100, of course.
Number two, what politician's daughter was in a car accident this weekend? The answer, Howard Dean's daughter.
And finally, pro-ana Web sites promote what? Anorexia nervosa.
Be the first person to answer all three questions correctly, and win a 360 t-shirt. Tune in tomorrow to find out if you are the one. By the way, Friday's winner, Allison Marullo of South River, New Jersey.
Another 360 challenge and another chance to win tomorrow.
I'm Heidi Collins in for Anderson Cooper tonight. He's back tomorrow night and will be live from Los Angeles.
Thanks so much for being with us. Up next, "PAULA ZAHN NOW."
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