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Battle of Falluja; Arafat's Health

Aired November 09, 2004 - 11:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush to visit Americans wounded in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The president expected within the hour over at Walter Reid Army Medical Center here in Washington, D.C.
Coming right up, we'll have the latest from Iraq and the U.S. military offensive in Falluja.

A potentially hung jury in the Scott Peterson murder trial. The judge encourages jurors to remain open-minded in effort to reach a verdict. Deliberations were set to resume about half an hour ago in Redwood City, California.

Honors today in Berlin for the hundreds of people who lost their lives at the Berlin Wall. Today, Germans in east and west marked the 15th anniversary of the day the wall crumbled as communism in Europe collapsed.

The U.S. Army in the center of Falluja. Units clear the way for U.S. Marines to root out Falluja insurgents.

The military says the insurgent resistance is unexpectedly light, at least thus far, and top insurgent leaders have probably fled already. At this hour, there are no reliable casualty counts, but The Associated Press is reporting 11 Americans lost their lives on Monday, most in other parts of Iraq.

We'll start our coverage this hour with CNN's Jane Arraf. She's embedded with U.S. forces in Falluja and she filed this report just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: We're moving through the industrial section. Now, this was the stronghold, thought to be the stronghold of foreign fighters in Falluja. And after 24 hours of pounding it with artillery airstrikes and everything else, it's a scene of devastation.

That doesn't mean it's empty. It's quite tense here at the moment.

We're actually behind an armored personnel carrier where they have just received fire from a rocket-propelled grenade. They don't know exactly where it came from, so all the soldiers around me have their guns drawn in that direction.

This is an area where there have been very few civilians. And we were shown part of the reason.

The task force commander showed us just one street that was booby-trapped. It had a berm, a sand berm to prevent vehicles from coming through, but if they did get through it was wired to explode. Those are some thing of the things they have been facing as they go through the city.

There isn't a block that doesn't have at least a couple of houses or a building that is either in rubble or is charred from the strikes, or has bullet holes making just absolute tangle of iron and steel. It looks as if someone had dropped something very heavy on the whole area.

Now, these were suspected insurgent hideouts. They were places where they believed insurgents were gathering.

Some of them they had targeted long before, some of them were what they call targets of opportunity, where they receive fire and they fired back. And when the Marines and the Army have been firing back, as they've made clear, they have been doing it with huge force. They want to end this insurgency and they want to make sure it's over for good.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: That report just a few moments ago from the frontlines in Falluja. She's embedded with U.S. Army personnel.

Let's go over to the Pentagon now for more information on what's going on. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, standing by.

Barbara, what are you hearing?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the question on the table here at the Pentagon now is where are the insurgents, why is it the case that so far coalition forces are not encountering the large organized resistance throughout the city of Falluja that they had perhaps expected? We are seeing pictures, of course, of very tight fighting, booby-traps, explosions all over the city, but it is sporadic, if you will.

What one key military official tells CNN now is that "We believe that most of the Zarqawi senior leadership has departed Falluja." An indication that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian terrorist who has claimed responsibility for so much violence and has been believed to be running a significant element of the insurgency in Falluja, he and his fighters may be long gone, they have departed the scene before the fighting actually began.

There is a feeling that even other insurgents, the Ba'ath loyalists, the Sunnis, may have moved in and out of the city. So the question now is, what will U.S. forces face?

The goal, the strategy remains the same. They will continue to press towards the center of the city. They're not quite there yet, by all accounts. They still expect to encounter resistance, but at this point they're really not entirely sure what they are going to face over the long haul -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I may be confused, Barbara, but why should anyone be surprised that the top leadership, especially Zarqawi or anybody else, escaped from Falluja over these past several days or weeks? This was probably the most publicized assault in U.S. military history.

It has been going on now for weeks. They have been pounding positions and they've been advertising they are about to go in. So why should anyone now be surprised that people left in the days leading up to the offensive?

STARR: Well, I don't think that the military leadership is necessarily surprised. The insurgency has been a slippery bunch, if you will. Zarqawi is very capable, according to U.S. intelligence, of moving around Iraq and not being readily apparent to anyone.

What they're looking at now is the question of whether the insurgency has melted away, gone to another city, planning to regroup, planning to fight somewhere else. How exactly all of this may sort out.

The goal in Falluja, they tell us now, is to restore local control to that city, to get it back up and running under the Iraqi residents who live there. One source saying to us, "If the fighters have gone away and they're simply less capable of fighting, so be it. Then we have local control." What they're trying to make sure of is that what does not happen is what has happened in the past in so many Iraqi cities, the insurgents melt away, regroup and fight again -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And finally, Barbara, the latest casualty numbers. How many Americans have been killed in Falluja since the battle started?

STARR: Wolf, this is very difficult to track. What U.S. military officials are telling us to this point, they have confirmed reports that six U.S. troops have been killed in action since Falluja began, 10 wounded. Of course this number may change over the hours ahead.

But it has been a very difficult, violent day for a couple of days for U.S. troops across Iraq. As many as nine U.S. troops killed yesterday in a variety of attacks around the country in many different cities. So all of this very difficult business continues -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you, Barbara, very much.

Yasser Arafat still alive but gravely ill. That word from some of his top lieutenants who have traveled to the Paris hospital where the Palestinian leader is being treated.

CNN's Fionnuala Sweeney is there. She's joining us live with late-breaking developments.

What are you hearing, Fionnuala? FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we're expecting a news conference to begin anytime soon, led by that Palestinian delegation. They have been meeting with Jacques Chirac, the French president, over the last hour. And before that, they were here at the hospital for a period of just under two-and-a-half hours in which they spoke to the doctors.

We're not able to get any definitive diagnosis of his condition because the doctors haven't been able to provide one. Simply, they do not know what is wrong with Yasser Arafat. They have been able to rule out a number of illnesses, including cancers, but they still are not able to get to the primary cause of his illness. And further bad news today from Ramallah in the West Bank about Yasser Arafat's deteriorating condition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Arafat has deteriorated since last night, early this morning. And he has a blood hemorrhage in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): All efforts are being exacted (ph) by our friends, the French doctors, who will deal with this situation and stop this hemorrhage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SWEENEY: Indeed, Saeb Erekat there, a very emotional Saeb Erekat, describing the deterioration in Yasser Arafat's condition. And for the first time...

BLITZER: Fionnuala, I want to interrupt your report because we're getting word the news conference is starting in Paris right now. Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister, is speaking right now. Let's listen to hear what he has to say.

NABIL SHA'ATH, FOREIGN MINISTER: ...and of the PLO and Fatah, and Mr. Abu Mazen, as well as the chairman of -- or speaker of the legislative council, and myself, came from Palestine to see the president.

The president is very ill. We weren't really allowed to see him, and we could only delegate one of us to see him in the intensive care unit because of his very difficult situation. Mr. Abu Ala was the person chosen to see him, and he did.

We are obviously very grateful to the French government and to the -- the hospital, Percy, and to all its staff, all its doctors, to the French army, who gave every possible help and excellent medical support to try to cure President Arafat and -- and send him back recovered to Palestine. Unfortunately, this task has proven very difficult, and his situation has deteriorated, especially last night. But since last Wednesday he has been in a coma, and that coma has deepened last night.

Having said that, and having recognized the critical situation in which President Arafat is in today, his brain, his heart and his lungs still function. And he is alive. And I don't see really any reason to either make rumors precipitating his death or hoping for a quick recovery because this is all really a matter in the hand of god, primarily.

We are people who believe in god. But they are also in the hands of the doctors that take care of him.

We've had an opportunity to talk at length with the medical team that have taken care of him, and then with the medical chiefs of the hospital Percy and of the medical branch of the French army. And we're satisfied that everything possibly was done to really put him back on the road to recover -- to recovery.

We don't have a full understanding of why his status has deteriorated, which means that we don't really have a full diagnosis. We know what it is not.

It is not malignancy or cancer anywhere in his body. And the doctors today ruled out completely poisoning. So we can also rule out that cause, as well.

Well, that leaves many explanations. The doctors want -- by and large, favor the explanation that his age, the last 75 years old, difficult life. The last three-and-a-half years incarcerated in a very small office, which has very little oxygen and very bad sanitary situation, insieged (ph) by the Israeli army, have contributed to a varieties of digestive track ailments.

So he had serious inflammations of the stomach and the intestines, and these have led to a long period without nutrition. And this led to deterioration in this situation on the blood chemistry and the blood composition and the platelets. And this led, obviously, to a chain reaction back into problems of not being able to feed him intravenously because of the lack of platelets and the fear of hemorrhage. And therefore, you really had a chain reaction that built over time to put him into coma and then into a deeper coma, as he is today.

I'm telling you, really, I'm not a medical doctor and I don't pretend to be one. But I'm relaying to you all the information we have to end all of this speculation that -- and all of the rumors that have really been on the -- on the media.

I want to also rule out any question of euthanasia. I mean, people talk as if his life is plugged in and plugged out. And this is utterly ridiculous.

We -- we Muslims are not -- do not accept euthanasia. And even when euthanasia is discussed, it's because either the patient has been undergoing great suffering and pain, which the president is not, particularly in his coma and in his long-term sedation because of the multiplicity of investigations that have been made.

He has been under several attempts to take biopsies of his spleen and other bone marrow organs to discover why the platelets have not been growing. And many endoscopies have been used, colonoscopy and gastroscopy and others, and so he had to be put under sedation for long periods of time. So we rule out pain.

And secondly, when this thing goes on for months or years, and it causes pain to the families that euthanasia is considered, no such measure has ever been considered by his doctors nor by his family. And so, he will live or die, depending on his body's ability to resist. And under the will of god, because every medical support is given to him.

The French have not spared anything. They brought a lot of civilian doctors from outside the military hospital to join in his treatment and in his investigations for which we are very grateful and very thankful.

BLITZER: Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister of the Palestinian Authority in Paris at a news conference, updating people around the world on the condition of Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader. Nabil Sha'ath saying that Ahmed Qorei, the Palestinian Authority prime minister, also known as Abu Ala, met with Yasser Arafat, saw him in the hospital.

He is in a coma, according to Nabil Sha'ath. That coma, he says, deepened last night, but he is alive. Nabil Sha'ath insisting that the brain, heart and lungs still function of Yasser Arafat.

We were speaking with our reporter over at the Percy medical facility in Paris, Fionnuala Sweeney. Let's bring her back right now.

Did you hear anything specific in those brief comments we heard from Nabil Sha'ath to contradict anything you're hearing at the hospital, Fionnuala?

SWEENEY: Actually, not at all. I think what we're seeing here is a clear attempt by the Palestinian leadership to, once -- once and for all, put an end to all the speculation and rumors that have been swirling around Paris in the last week or so about his health.

Now, part of the contribution to those rumors had been the fact that Yasser Arafat's wife, Suha, as next of kin under French law, really reserved the right about the flow of information, how much we could hear, how much we would be told. And that contributed to all this rumor and counter-rumor about his health.

I think it's interesting to note that Nabil Sha'ath saying there the doctors today completely ruled out poisoning, because that had been another rumor that had been swirling around here, adding to all the other symptoms that we've been hearing. It has been pretty much, as I've been hearing it from Palestinian officials.

He came into hospital 11 days ago, he under went some tests, he began to feel better. And then last Wednesday, while he was undergoing further medical tests, he did slip into coma. And it was after that that his condition began to deteriorate, and after that we began to find that there was a decrease in the flow of information coming to us from the hospital.

And Palestinian officials doing their best in the background to give us a sense of what was going on with Yasser Arafat. But because they're not medical experts themselves, unable to give a complete -- completely definitive account, and so we had all these speculation about what was unconscious, what did being in a coma mean, what was the difference and so forth.

I think another thing that struck me was that basically this is a 75-year-old man who has lived a very full life, a life that has not been easy. In the words of Nabil Sha'ath, "a difficult life," and especially in the Muqata.

I mean, I've been in the Muqata, the compound in Ramallah, I've seen what he eats. He eats very simple food, very simply prepared. But it is not, by any means, a luxury place.

I've heard it described as a dungeon. It lacks air conditioning, and it's really not conducive to anybody, let alone a man in his 70s.

I think Nabil Sha'ath there, Wolf, really at pains to point out that what is going on with Yasser Arafat is, in their minds, completely transparent. He said, and I'm quoting, "I'm relaying to you all the information we have to end all the speculation in the media."

And then also this talk about euthanasia. That has been another rumor that's been swirling around here. "He's on a life support, somebody is going to switch off the button any day now once the Palestinian Authority get their act together," that was the kind of thing that was being said in the background. And Nabil Sha'ath there going at pains to point out that at no point has euthanasia been contemplated by either the doctors or his family.

BLITZER: Fionnuala Sweeney, we'll get back to you. Thanks very much. Fionnuala Sweeney on the scene for us, as she has been now for us for several days at the Paris hospital where Yasser Arafat is being treated.

Let's bring in Ken Pollack, our analyst from the Brookings Institution, the Saban Center. He's joining us from Chicago now.

Ken, as you watch this unfold, the deterioration of Yasser Arafat, what goes through your mind?

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, of course, the biggest question in my mind is what happens in terms of the succession? The Palestinian leadership has been badly fragmented over the last couple of years, they have a large diverse group of security services.

There are clearly a lot of different people who are going to want to step into Yasser Arafat's shoes. And I think it's clear that they are already starting to maneuver, starting to circle. And the only question that we have, I think, for all of us, is whether this succession is going to be settled through conversation over a boardroom or with Kalashnikovs in the streets of Gaza and Ramallah.

BLITZER: It looks like they have their act pretty much together, at least on the surface right now. They sent over the current prime minister, Ahmed Qorei, the former Prime Minister, Mahmoud Abbas, Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister is there in Paris. It looks like the leadership of the Palestinian community, to a certain degree, is rallying behind the formal structure of the Palestinian Authority, including the elements, the more extreme elements of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

POLLACK: Right. Well, the problem is, Wolf, that that could be deceptive. I mean, they all do have an incentive, at least for the moment, to rally behind the current leadership.

But at the end of the day, it's just unclear that Abu Mazen, Abu Ala, Nabil Sha'ath, some of the other moderates who have been around Yasser Arafat for these years, are going to be the ones to emerge. At the end of the day, the Tanzim, Mohammed Dahlan, Jibril Rajoub, these are the ones with the guns, these are the ones who control the power in the Palestinian territories. And it's just not clear over the long term whether they are going to be willing to go along with whatever transition comes along.

That would be a very good scenario if they did, if they all got behind someone like an Abu Mazen. I think that could be a very productive scenario for the Palestinians. But it could be just as likely that they decide that they want to occupy the top slot themselves, or they've got their own candidate. And then you could develop into real infighting among them.

BLITZER: As far as the United States' role right now, it's a sensitive moment in the history of the Middle East. Yasser Arafat looks like he's on the verge of dying right now.

Ed Abbington, a longtime aide, a former U.S. government official, a former consul general in Jerusalem who is now an adviser to the Palestinian Authority, he's quoted by The Associated Press as saying it could be only hours before Yasser Arafat actually dies. And he's there on the scene in Ramallah. So he's not in Paris, but he is in Ramallah.

How high a representation would you guess the Bush administration would send to the funeral of Yasser Arafat?

POLLACK: That's an excellent question, Wolf. Because, of course, if Yasser Arafat were a fully-credited head of state, you would obviously send someone at least the vice president's rank to attend the funeral.

Because Arafat's status is much more questionable, because the Bush administration has made very clear their distaste for Mr. Arafat, you could see a somewhat lower-level official going. And I think that whoever the administration decides to send will be sending a message.

It will be sending a message to the Palestinians, it will be sending a message to the other Arab states. To a certain extent, it will send a message to Israel about how important they believe the succession to Arafat is. And I think, to some extent, you might even be able to say that they will be signaling their willingness to engage in a new peace process, depending on how high a delegation they send. BLITZER: Stand by, Ken, because we're going to have you back later this hour to talk about what's happening in Falluja, in Iraq, as well.

I want to go to Ramallah, though, right now. CNN's Michael Holmes standing by with more on the fate of Yasser Arafat and the political infighting that may be going on right now as far as what happens next.

Michael, what are you hearing?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, hearing much the same as you in terms of Yasser Arafat's condition. We've had numerous high-level sources tell us that he is a "matter of hours" away from death. In fact, one source put it this way: "The president will not see another dawn."

Now, preparations are under way to -- for if that does happen. Now, one thing that is very interesting is the top Islamic cleric for the Palestinian territories is on his way to Paris now, ostensibly to be at Yasser Arafat's bedside, offer his support. But also, there's a feeling, too, that he will be there, too, if necessary, to observe the manner of death, if you like, to declare under Islamic law the death of Yasser Arafat and in a way circumvent any criticism or suspicion surrounding how he dies.

Of course, conspiracy theories have abounded throughout this whole ordeal for the Palestinian people. And that's something that the Palestinian leadership very much wants to avoid. That delegation is headed back here tomorrow to Ramallah.

One thing that we can tell you that has been a matter of discussion, you were talking about funerals and the like. A state funeral is likely to be held. We don't know where. The latest top-rated contender, if you like, is Cairo.

One thing that has been confirmed was something we have been reporting for the last couple of days, and that is Ramallah here, right behind me, in fact, at the Palestinian Authority headquarters, is going to be the likely place of Yasser Arafat's burial. It came up, of course, that Gaza was what the Israelis wanted, Jerusalem was what Yasser Arafat himself wanted.

And it did appear that Ramallah came in late in the game as an option. But it now seems to have won that option. It was Arafat's top aide who made that announcement just an hour or so ago -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Michael, we also heard Nabil Sha'ath, the Palestinian Authority foreign minister, make the charge that the conditions at Muqata, the area behind you, Yasser Arafat, where he's been spending most of his time, almost all of his time over these past two-and-a- half years, plus, that the situation inside is so deteriorated, he believes, Nabil Sha'ath, that that may have contributed to his demise, to Yasser Arafat's deteriorating situation, the lack of sanitation, some of the other problems inside. You've been in there. I was in there a couple years ago, and I'm sure it has gotten much worse since I was there. But based on the last time you were inside the headquarters, the Muqata, what was it like inside?

HOLMES: Well, Wolf, yes, you're right. I've been in there several times. In fact, since the major Israeli incursion in April 2002, when we were here in Ramallah and went in to see Yasser Arafat, I've been in there probably three or four times since then as well. And conditions are very poor.

Yasser Arafat, despite the accusations that he spirited away millions of dollars, which may be proved to be true or untrue, he, himself, has lived a very Spartan lifestyle in there. He eats very bland food. I've had lunch with him on a couple occasions, very bland food, a lot of vegetables.

The conditions, in terms of lack oxygen, I would have to agree with that. It is a very stuffy place in there. And he essentially has lived in pretty much two rooms for the last three years, occasionally coming out to go to prayers, all of 50 feet away in another building in the complex behind me.

But yes, it (INAUDIBLE) and I'm no doctor, but it did not appear to me to be a healthy place at all. I would have to say that's accurate -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And I remember when I walked through there, when I went to interview Yasser Arafat, and it was the middle of the night when we did our interview, very small, very dark, obviously at night. But I remember the smell, everybody smoking cigarettes inside, the windows were closed, and a lot of smoke.

First of all, in the Middle East, almost everyone seems to smoke cigarettes, anyhow, to begin with. But there was a stench of cigarettes. I'm sure that certainly would not contribute to the health of an elderly man like Yasser Arafat to begin with. But do you remember -- do you remember that feeling of smoke inside that building?

HOLMES: Oh, absolutely, Wolf. Every time I've been in there, it's the same. And you're right, there are no open windows even.

And you're right, everybody smokes. His guards smoke, a lot of his cabinet ministers smoke. Everyone who comes to see him, half of them smoke.

And it is a very smoky environment. When I went in there during the incursion, and we went in there, the first thing his guards asked for from those of us who went in were cigarettes.

And it is a very small area, very small building. And where Yasser Arafat himself is, is like a conference area, probably 30 feet by 15 feet. And his bedroom, which is much smaller than that.

He used to -- he used to be a man who used to jog and stay very healthy. And his only mode of exercise in the last three years was essentially walking around that conference table that I know you've seen. He would just do laps around that, just walking.

And the rest of the time he was sitting down. And you're right, in a smoky environment, a very closed, claustrophobic environment, often full of people, as well. Very crowded environment, as well. So, yes, it wouldn't be an ideal place to spend three years in your retiring years, if you like -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Michael Holmes reporting for us. Michael, stand by. We'll be getting back to you.

We have much more on this news. Yasser Arafat now, according to Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister of the Palestinian Authority, in a coma that has deepened since last night, although he insists Yasser Arafat is still alive, his brain, his heart, his lungs still function.

He insisted it's not cancer. They've ruled out poisoning. It's unclear what exactly is causing Yasser Arafat's problems. Much more coming up on this story.

Also, much more coming up on the battle of Falluja. We'll talk to the former commander of the 82 Airborne camped outside the rebel- held city about what U.S. troops fighting in Falluja now are up against.

Much more coverage. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Yasser Arafat remains in a deep, deep coma in a hospital in Paris. The Percy military facility there. His foreign minister, Nabil Sha'ath saying he does not have cancer and has not been poisoned, but he is critically ill right now.

Let's get some assessment what this means for the Middle East peace process. Joining us now from Jerusalem Hirsch Goodman, he's a fellow at the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, former military affairs correspondent for the "Jerusalem Post."

Hirsch, you're looking at this situation, and this is a critical moment in the Arab/Israeli conflict with the end of Yasser Arafat imminent. May only be hours away, according to some of his advisers. What posture should Israel be taking right now to deal with this moment?

HIRSCH GOODMAN, TEL AVIV UNIVERSITY: Well, I think it's very important, Wolf, that Israel does not get involved in the Palestinian transition process. If Israel supports this version or that, they would be perceived as a Quisling, it would do them a lot of harm. Conversely, I think Israel has got a tremendous interest in being a smooth transition and in -- the alternative is chaos.

And I think Israel can do things to strengthen the new Palestinian leadership once they're in place. They can lift some restrictions, they can create some jobs over here, they can release Palestinian prisoners, they can open ports, they can open airports, they can allow commerce. In other words, without endorsing this or that person, Israel can certainly do a lot to strengthen any new Palestinian regime if it brings stability with it.

BLITZER: So, in other words, what I hear you saying, Hirsch, is there a moment and opportunity now from an optimistic perspective that after Arafat, the Palestinian leadership, whether it's Ahmed Qorei or Mahmoud Abbas or combination thereof or some of the younger Palestinian leaders who might be around, that there may be a moment to try to jump start this peace process, is that what you're saying?

GOODMAN: Yes, I absolutely am. I'm saying we have said Arafat is not a partner. Even the left wing in Israel are not going to shed a single tear on his demise. We hear Abu Ala, Abu Mazen, these are people who want democracy in Palestinian. Those are the people we have to build our future with.

But there is a confluence of events that has happened here. Firstly, the re-election of President Bush and hopefully an understanding from the American administration that they just can't sit back and say he's a failed leader. That failed leader is gone now. There's new opportunities here. And also, the prime minister in Israel, Ariel Sharon, who says we can't continue to occupy four million new Palestinians.

So new Palestinian leadership, somebody we can hopefully speak to, democracy in Palestine, a more determined President Bush and an Israeli prime minister wants to give up territory and seems to me to be a real opportunity.

BLITZER: Hirsch, I've heard from several officials here in Washington that offer this suggestion that how Israel handles the very sensitive, delicate issue of the funeral of Yasser Arafat could go a long way in strengthening some of the more moderate elements of the Palestinian Authority leadership right now. People like Ahmed Qorei or Mahmoud Abbas, people they have dealt with in the past and people they could deal with down the road. How does Israel handle the situation of the funeral, the burial of Yasser Arafat?

GOODMAN: I think we should leave it entirely up to the Palestinians who understand and have enough back channels to Israel to understand that this should not be a public issue, that the decision to maybe hold a pre-funeral sort of ceremony with the entire world could come to, let's say in Cairo, and then do the actual burial in Ramallah, in the Muqata which is so symbolic and so identified with Arafat and so identified with his fight against Israel.

So, it makes a lot of sense, this thing should be done quietly, it should not look like we're imposing and the Palestinians should not make demands that cannot be met like burial in Jerusalem. And I think the sides understand that and, frankly, I have to tell you, that I think Israel and the Palestinian successor leadership have played things very well up until now.

BLITZER: Well, when you say they've played things very well up until now. Elaborate a little bit on that.

GOODMAN: Well, I think we've understood that Sharon has given very strict instructions for no Israeli cabinet administer to speak on Arafat's condition whatsoever. No leaps of joy and no clapping of hands and no shedding of tears, not our business.

Secondly, it is not our business to speak on the succession and I think we've been successful in not doing that.

And thirdly, we initially made an issue of where he was going to be buried by saying not in Jerusalem, we understood it was a mistake. Let it seem, let it be that the Palestinians are making their decisions about their leader. We understand that he is a symbol.

And we also understand that it is desperately important right now to strengthen the interim leadership, otherwise the alternative is chaos. If the fringes take over in a vacuum, there will be chaos and therefore we cannot allow a vacuum and the Palestinian leadership has to assert itself and the best way for it to assert itself is without Israel's help.

BLITZER: I'm going to have you stand by, Hirsch Goodman in Jerusalem and I want to bring in another journalist, a Palestinian journalist, Daoud Kuttab, who is joining us from Ramallah, well-known, highly expected just like Hirsch Goodman is.

First of all, Daoud, tell us what you're hearing about funeral arrangements for Yasser Arafat. There's widespread anticipation that the Palestinian leadership has now settled on the Muqata somewhere in Ramallah for the eventual burial at least as a temporary location. Is that what you're hearing?

DAOUD KUTTAB, PALESTINIAN JOURNALIST: Yes, I am. In the last two days this issue of the location has focused on the Muqata for a number of reasons. Palestinians want to clearly make sure that the issue of the West Bank is always remembered because they are afraid of the disengagement from Gaza that if Arafat was buried in Gaza, that would be the symbolic ignorance of the West Bank.

They also feel very strongly about the last three years. Arafat has been imprisoned in this location. The Muqata has been destroyed -- partially destroyed and Arafat spent the last three years here.

Many feel indirectly the health conditions on this house arrest contributed to his poor health and they want to create a location where people -- dignitaries, officials, even tourists can come and pay their respects to the Palestinian leader and the cause that he's fought for and lived for for so long.

Plus, it is close to Jerusalem. Obviously, Palestinians would like to have him buried on Al Aqsa most and the Israelis have made a big stink about this and I don't think the Palestinians now want to go into a big political argument with Israelis over this issue.

Also many Palestinians will not be able to reach Jerusalem. Today's Jerusalem is not the Jerusalem that I think Palestinians would want their leader to be buried in because it's under complete Israeli control. So, for many reasons Ramallah and specifically this location behind me provide a symbolic and fitting resting place for the Palestinian leader.

BLITZER: Daoud, would there be, based on the scenario that you have heard about, some sort of memorial service, let's say in Cairo or Amman, someplace earlier or maybe after the burial for which world leaders, including leaders from the Arab world, would be able to participate? Or would you anticipate that they would somehow be allowed to come to Ramallah for the actual burial?

KUTTAB: Well, I don't know the answer to that. There is mixed feelings among the leadership. They would very much like people to come here, but they understand some of the Arab leaders have a problem in coming to areas under Israeli control, especially crossing border points where Israeli police are there. Certainly for countries other than Jordan and Egypt who have political diplomatic relations with Israel this would be a problem.

The question is whether this will happen before he is put to rest in Ramallah or after some kind of open memorial service. It's really not known. My feeling is they will try to do something to accommodate the many leaders from the Arab world and from the rest of the world who want to pay the respects to the long-time Palestinian leader especially from many countries and throughout the world.

You know, Arafat has been one of the most known leaders in the Non-Aligned Movement, Asia, Africa, I'm sure the South African president and others would want to pay their respects the Palestinians. So, I think you'll see that many people would want to do that and they will have to come up with an answer to where this event can take place.

BLITZER: Daoud, what about the rift that seemed to develop over the past couple, three days with Suha Arafat, Yasser Arafat's wife based on what Nabil Sha'ath was just saying a little while ago it looks like they worked that out, at least on the surface. But give us your perspective how serious of a problem Suha Arafat might be for the current Palestinian leadership.

KUTTAB: I don't think Suha Arafat will be any problem. I think Suha Arafat shot herself in the foot. She really messed up very big time. I have never heard a unity of the leadership and the people behind or against one person as I've seen in the last 24 hours. She will not be anywhere remembered. She will be very happy if they would allow her to attend any of the funeral arrangements.

So, I think she is in real trouble, even if the leadership would want her to come, the public would be very angry at her. So, I hope they can find some kind of a face-saving solution, but, politically, for the next leadership, I think she's completely out of it.

BLITZER: Give us your assessment of the next leadership. We heard from Hirsch Goodman and we'll bring him back in a moment we heard from Hirsch and he's relatively upbeat that there may be a moment now in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to get negotiations back on track after Arafat with Mahmoud Abbas and Ahmed Qorei and other Palestinian Authority leaders. What's your bottom line assessment?

KUTTAB: Well, I do agree with Hirsch on this particular issue. I think there is a window of opportunity for many reasons. The one issue I'm not sure about is how serious Israelis are going to be. You know, they have refused to talk to Arafat and made him the scapegoat and they hung everything up on this particular excuse.

And I think they had other reasons not wanting to talk to Arafat. Namely, they didn't want to stop settlements and they didn't really want to give up land as we saw what was happening in Gaza. If there was a change of heart in Israel, this would be good news. I think even the most radical groups of Palestinians are going to give the new leadership a space of time -- if I could use the word political honeymoon that they will give that leader a chance to deliver some goods.

They would immediately expect some release of prisoners, possibly people like Marwan Barghouti, the ease or the cancellation of the closure orders and I think that would prepare the mood for some type of political negotiations. How far, how successful they will be will depend a lot on Israel on obviously the new leadership and the Americans.

And with the renewed mandate for President Bush, again, this would be an opportune moment to really put the goal, as President Bush has said, a Palestinian state in the year 2005. We're on the verge of 2005 and this could be very good news for the new year.

BLITZER: Hirsch Goodman, what about what we just heard from Daoud, what about the possibility of someone, a younger Palestinian leader, let's throw out the name he just threw out, Marwan Barghouti, who is serving a life sentence for terrorism, convicted by the Israelis.

He's enormously possible, as you well know, among Palestinians. He's someone that presumably would have a strong base of support if he's released from prison by the Israelis. What are the prospects of that?

GOODMAN: Well, actually he's currently serving country I think five concurrent life sentences for aiding and abetting terrorism, etc., but we have seen many prisoner exchanges in the past. What I feel about Barghouti is that at the moment we need a bridge. Abu Ala and Abu Mazen, these people are a bridge.

But if there are going to be elections in Palestine and these are going to be monitored by international monitors as they themselves want and these should be held within 60 days of so and so and so. I think if would be tremendously important for Marwan Barghouti to be released from prison and allowed to stand for election. I think he will be very, very popular and unlike Arafat and the guard that came back from him Tunis, he's seen as uncorrupt, he's seen as the salt of the earth, he's seen as the son of Palestine and he's a person I have been in backtrack second channel talks with him in the past. He's always spoken about peace and reconciliation. So, I think there's two stages here. One, strength on the current Palestinian leadership and do the prisoner releases, open up the road blocks and do all the things that Daoud mentioned and then when the elections and by popular demand, I think he could be released for prison and then we could be off to a much better future. We'll see.

BLITZER: We'll see, indeed. Hirsch Goodman and Daoud Kuttab, two excellent journalists, a Palestinian and an Israeli joining us for a good, serious discussion on this historic moment in the Middle East. Thanks very much for joining us and we'll have you back very, very soon.

We're following closely developments in Falluja in Iraq this hour, as well. Up next, I'll speak live with the former commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, camped outside the rebel-held city. We'll talk about U.S. troops fighting in Falluja now. What they're up against. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're getting this story in from the Associated Press, we're monitoring it. A hostage situation unfolding in Los Angeles right now. According to the AP, it began within the past hour or so. Number of hostages unknown. It is taking place at the Mexican consulate, that would be near Downtown Los Angeles. The incident began unfolding around 8:30 a.m. local time. That is 11:30 a.m. East Coast time with at least one suspect starting a hostage situation. This according to a Los Angeles spokeswoman.

A portion of the area has been evacuated. You're looking at these live pictures. Telephone call by the AP to the Mexican consulate's press office not immediately returned. Now further details, but we're watching this standoff at the Mexican consulate in Los Angeles.

Live pictures coming to us from Los Angeles right now. KCAL, our affiliate out there. We'll watch the story for you and get some more information as it becomes available.

Our top story, the battle for Falluja. U.S. and Iraqi forces fighting their way into the center of that city navigating narrow streets and alley and dodging incoming fire and sidestepping booby- traps.

Joining us now, someone who fully understands what the U.S. and Iraqi allied forces are up against. Major General Charles Swannack was the commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, retiring from the U.S. Army only yesterday. He commanded U.S. troops outside Falluja, leaving Iraq in April.

General, thanks very much for joining us. What is -- your bottom line assessment, what are U.S. troops up against right now?

MAJ. GEN. CHARLES SWANNACK, U.S. ARMY (RET): Well, Wolf, good talking to you today. Falluja is an interesting place and a tough fight. About 300,000 inhabitants of Falluja, more so than that bordered on one side of the Euphrates River and Highway 1 on the other side.

And so, how do you go ahead and find somewhere around 5,000 to 6,000 insurgents fighting what coalition forces try to do over there amidst 300,000 folks. Tough job, very difficult. And I know the marines are doing a great job over there and the paratroopers when I was there did a good job, too.

BLITZER: But it's been booby-trapped, supposedly, with explosives, maybe even suicide bombers. This is a new kind of urban warfare that U.S. troops, special operation forces would be engaged in from previous urban warfare conflicts whether in Somalia or Vietnam or elsewhere.

SWANNACK: Well, it's a different fight, you're exactly right. We have got folks who are technically competent to go in there and put those kind of booby-traps up and you have to go ahead and find them and surgically remove them and then go ahead and continue the fight. We dealt with IEDs while I was there, we dealt with car bombs when I was there and dealt with surface to air missiles shooting down our helicopters when I was there.

And so, they are going to go ahead and use every means they can to go ahead and fight this fight, but the fight is not so much about the insurgents. The folks I talked about, 5,000, I think, to 6,000. The fight is also for that 295,000 people that belong to Falluja to get them to go ahead and tell us where those booby-traps are, where the car bombs are and where the daggoned explosive devices trying to kill our soldiers are.

BLITZER: What we've heard from some of the insurgents is they hope there is widespread casualties, even among the civilians, especially among the U.S. forces, of course. But even among civilians to poison them towards the United States and the interim Iraqi government. This is a political battle to a certain degree that's unfolding on the military battlefield.

SWANNACK: Well, it's a strategic battle what you are talking about and they're absolutely trying to go ahead and sway, not so much the troopers fighting the fight over there and the marines, it's trying to sway the rest of the public opinion back here in the United States and the Arab world to go ahead and cause us to go ahead and shut down this operation.

Well, we're not going to shut down the operation. It's a just cause in my opinion, it's the right thing to go ahead and do. As a matter fact, your grandchildren and my grandchildren will go ahead and enjoy the fruits and liberty and freedom throughout the world more so because of the great soldiers, sailors, airman and marines fighting that fight there today.

BLITZER: What is your assessment of the Iraqi fighters? The Iraqi troops who are engaged, fighting alongside the U.S. Marines and U.S. soldiers right now. Are they doing what they're supposed to be doing? In other words, are they showing up for the fight? SWANNACK: Absolutely. We went ahead and trained about 5,600 of Iraqi civil defense corps troopers and they can go ahead and meet the mettle. You give them a good body armor, you give them a good weapon - AK-47 and you give them some helmet and they can go ahead and fight the fight. They will stand toe to toe with American forces to fight the fight. When they don't have those type of implements and that equipment, it gets kind of tough.

And I think we saw in the former battle of Falluja just after we left that difference in terms of the ability based upon the equipping of the force and not so much the training of the force but they're going to be trained and equipped very well and they can carry the fight out. That is the future of Iraq. The security forces being provided from Iraq is the future of Iraq to provide the freedoms to those people over there.

BLITZER: As you know, general, historically there's been a rivalry between the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Army. In recent years the whole notion of joint operations has been fully implemented, but as soldiers go in together with marines, how coordinated and how effective are they in working together in this kind of military offensive?

SWANNACK: Well, in the last 33 years that I've been in the military, Wolf, I got to tell you that we have grown in terms of joint capabilities. I had special operation forces working for us when I was over in Iraq. I fought alongside the 1st Marine Division. I also turned over most of southern Iraq to the marine division and then I turned over all western Iraq to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. We are joined at the hip in terms of jointness.

We can go ahead and use each other's helicopter or gunships and use U.S. Air Force air combat power and I'll tell you what, we have basically the same machine guns -- we wear a different uniform. One says "U.S. Army" and one says "U.S. Marines," but we can do the job together. And that's the way it will have to get done fighting our nation's wars.

BLITZER: How worried are you about: A, collateral damage, namely, civilians getting killed; and B, friendly fire, namely U.S. troops unfortunately, tragically, killing other U.S. troops?

SWANNACK: Well, our military has grown a lot in that term with precision fires. We used JDAAMs to go ahead and take out some targets while I was there both during the fight north and also near Falluja. And so the application of combat power is very important to go ahead and be precise because, like I said before, we're trying to take out those folks that want to kill us, 5,000 to 6,000 in Falluja, but you also have to go in and safeguard the other 295,000.

And so, the application that combat power very critical. I believe we have precision fires, both ground fires and air-to-ground fires that can do that mission. So, I feel pretty good about that.

BLITZER: Major General Charles Swannack, just retired yesterday from the U.S. Army. Congratulations, moving into civilian life. Thanks for your duty over these decades. Your service to the United States of America, appreciate it very much.

SWANNACK: Thanks so much, Wolf. Good talking to you today.

BLITZER: Good luck down the road.

I'll be back later today, every week day, 5:00 p.m. Eastern for WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. Among other things, we're continuing to follow developments out of Iraq and Falluja and we're also following the condition of the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Some of his aides saying it could be only hours before he dies. We're watching that. We'll see what unfolds.

Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. LIVE FROM with Tony Harris and Betty Nguyen, that's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired November 9, 2004 - 11:59   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: President Bush to visit Americans wounded in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The president expected within the hour over at Walter Reid Army Medical Center here in Washington, D.C.
Coming right up, we'll have the latest from Iraq and the U.S. military offensive in Falluja.

A potentially hung jury in the Scott Peterson murder trial. The judge encourages jurors to remain open-minded in effort to reach a verdict. Deliberations were set to resume about half an hour ago in Redwood City, California.

Honors today in Berlin for the hundreds of people who lost their lives at the Berlin Wall. Today, Germans in east and west marked the 15th anniversary of the day the wall crumbled as communism in Europe collapsed.

The U.S. Army in the center of Falluja. Units clear the way for U.S. Marines to root out Falluja insurgents.

The military says the insurgent resistance is unexpectedly light, at least thus far, and top insurgent leaders have probably fled already. At this hour, there are no reliable casualty counts, but The Associated Press is reporting 11 Americans lost their lives on Monday, most in other parts of Iraq.

We'll start our coverage this hour with CNN's Jane Arraf. She's embedded with U.S. forces in Falluja and she filed this report just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: We're moving through the industrial section. Now, this was the stronghold, thought to be the stronghold of foreign fighters in Falluja. And after 24 hours of pounding it with artillery airstrikes and everything else, it's a scene of devastation.

That doesn't mean it's empty. It's quite tense here at the moment.

We're actually behind an armored personnel carrier where they have just received fire from a rocket-propelled grenade. They don't know exactly where it came from, so all the soldiers around me have their guns drawn in that direction.

This is an area where there have been very few civilians. And we were shown part of the reason.

The task force commander showed us just one street that was booby-trapped. It had a berm, a sand berm to prevent vehicles from coming through, but if they did get through it was wired to explode. Those are some thing of the things they have been facing as they go through the city.

There isn't a block that doesn't have at least a couple of houses or a building that is either in rubble or is charred from the strikes, or has bullet holes making just absolute tangle of iron and steel. It looks as if someone had dropped something very heavy on the whole area.

Now, these were suspected insurgent hideouts. They were places where they believed insurgents were gathering.

Some of them they had targeted long before, some of them were what they call targets of opportunity, where they receive fire and they fired back. And when the Marines and the Army have been firing back, as they've made clear, they have been doing it with huge force. They want to end this insurgency and they want to make sure it's over for good.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: That report just a few moments ago from the frontlines in Falluja. She's embedded with U.S. Army personnel.

Let's go over to the Pentagon now for more information on what's going on. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, standing by.

Barbara, what are you hearing?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the question on the table here at the Pentagon now is where are the insurgents, why is it the case that so far coalition forces are not encountering the large organized resistance throughout the city of Falluja that they had perhaps expected? We are seeing pictures, of course, of very tight fighting, booby-traps, explosions all over the city, but it is sporadic, if you will.

What one key military official tells CNN now is that "We believe that most of the Zarqawi senior leadership has departed Falluja." An indication that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian terrorist who has claimed responsibility for so much violence and has been believed to be running a significant element of the insurgency in Falluja, he and his fighters may be long gone, they have departed the scene before the fighting actually began.

There is a feeling that even other insurgents, the Ba'ath loyalists, the Sunnis, may have moved in and out of the city. So the question now is, what will U.S. forces face?

The goal, the strategy remains the same. They will continue to press towards the center of the city. They're not quite there yet, by all accounts. They still expect to encounter resistance, but at this point they're really not entirely sure what they are going to face over the long haul -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I may be confused, Barbara, but why should anyone be surprised that the top leadership, especially Zarqawi or anybody else, escaped from Falluja over these past several days or weeks? This was probably the most publicized assault in U.S. military history.

It has been going on now for weeks. They have been pounding positions and they've been advertising they are about to go in. So why should anyone now be surprised that people left in the days leading up to the offensive?

STARR: Well, I don't think that the military leadership is necessarily surprised. The insurgency has been a slippery bunch, if you will. Zarqawi is very capable, according to U.S. intelligence, of moving around Iraq and not being readily apparent to anyone.

What they're looking at now is the question of whether the insurgency has melted away, gone to another city, planning to regroup, planning to fight somewhere else. How exactly all of this may sort out.

The goal in Falluja, they tell us now, is to restore local control to that city, to get it back up and running under the Iraqi residents who live there. One source saying to us, "If the fighters have gone away and they're simply less capable of fighting, so be it. Then we have local control." What they're trying to make sure of is that what does not happen is what has happened in the past in so many Iraqi cities, the insurgents melt away, regroup and fight again -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And finally, Barbara, the latest casualty numbers. How many Americans have been killed in Falluja since the battle started?

STARR: Wolf, this is very difficult to track. What U.S. military officials are telling us to this point, they have confirmed reports that six U.S. troops have been killed in action since Falluja began, 10 wounded. Of course this number may change over the hours ahead.

But it has been a very difficult, violent day for a couple of days for U.S. troops across Iraq. As many as nine U.S. troops killed yesterday in a variety of attacks around the country in many different cities. So all of this very difficult business continues -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thank you, Barbara, very much.

Yasser Arafat still alive but gravely ill. That word from some of his top lieutenants who have traveled to the Paris hospital where the Palestinian leader is being treated.

CNN's Fionnuala Sweeney is there. She's joining us live with late-breaking developments.

What are you hearing, Fionnuala? FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we're expecting a news conference to begin anytime soon, led by that Palestinian delegation. They have been meeting with Jacques Chirac, the French president, over the last hour. And before that, they were here at the hospital for a period of just under two-and-a-half hours in which they spoke to the doctors.

We're not able to get any definitive diagnosis of his condition because the doctors haven't been able to provide one. Simply, they do not know what is wrong with Yasser Arafat. They have been able to rule out a number of illnesses, including cancers, but they still are not able to get to the primary cause of his illness. And further bad news today from Ramallah in the West Bank about Yasser Arafat's deteriorating condition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Arafat has deteriorated since last night, early this morning. And he has a blood hemorrhage in the head.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): All efforts are being exacted (ph) by our friends, the French doctors, who will deal with this situation and stop this hemorrhage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SWEENEY: Indeed, Saeb Erekat there, a very emotional Saeb Erekat, describing the deterioration in Yasser Arafat's condition. And for the first time...

BLITZER: Fionnuala, I want to interrupt your report because we're getting word the news conference is starting in Paris right now. Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister, is speaking right now. Let's listen to hear what he has to say.

NABIL SHA'ATH, FOREIGN MINISTER: ...and of the PLO and Fatah, and Mr. Abu Mazen, as well as the chairman of -- or speaker of the legislative council, and myself, came from Palestine to see the president.

The president is very ill. We weren't really allowed to see him, and we could only delegate one of us to see him in the intensive care unit because of his very difficult situation. Mr. Abu Ala was the person chosen to see him, and he did.

We are obviously very grateful to the French government and to the -- the hospital, Percy, and to all its staff, all its doctors, to the French army, who gave every possible help and excellent medical support to try to cure President Arafat and -- and send him back recovered to Palestine. Unfortunately, this task has proven very difficult, and his situation has deteriorated, especially last night. But since last Wednesday he has been in a coma, and that coma has deepened last night.

Having said that, and having recognized the critical situation in which President Arafat is in today, his brain, his heart and his lungs still function. And he is alive. And I don't see really any reason to either make rumors precipitating his death or hoping for a quick recovery because this is all really a matter in the hand of god, primarily.

We are people who believe in god. But they are also in the hands of the doctors that take care of him.

We've had an opportunity to talk at length with the medical team that have taken care of him, and then with the medical chiefs of the hospital Percy and of the medical branch of the French army. And we're satisfied that everything possibly was done to really put him back on the road to recover -- to recovery.

We don't have a full understanding of why his status has deteriorated, which means that we don't really have a full diagnosis. We know what it is not.

It is not malignancy or cancer anywhere in his body. And the doctors today ruled out completely poisoning. So we can also rule out that cause, as well.

Well, that leaves many explanations. The doctors want -- by and large, favor the explanation that his age, the last 75 years old, difficult life. The last three-and-a-half years incarcerated in a very small office, which has very little oxygen and very bad sanitary situation, insieged (ph) by the Israeli army, have contributed to a varieties of digestive track ailments.

So he had serious inflammations of the stomach and the intestines, and these have led to a long period without nutrition. And this led to deterioration in this situation on the blood chemistry and the blood composition and the platelets. And this led, obviously, to a chain reaction back into problems of not being able to feed him intravenously because of the lack of platelets and the fear of hemorrhage. And therefore, you really had a chain reaction that built over time to put him into coma and then into a deeper coma, as he is today.

I'm telling you, really, I'm not a medical doctor and I don't pretend to be one. But I'm relaying to you all the information we have to end all of this speculation that -- and all of the rumors that have really been on the -- on the media.

I want to also rule out any question of euthanasia. I mean, people talk as if his life is plugged in and plugged out. And this is utterly ridiculous.

We -- we Muslims are not -- do not accept euthanasia. And even when euthanasia is discussed, it's because either the patient has been undergoing great suffering and pain, which the president is not, particularly in his coma and in his long-term sedation because of the multiplicity of investigations that have been made.

He has been under several attempts to take biopsies of his spleen and other bone marrow organs to discover why the platelets have not been growing. And many endoscopies have been used, colonoscopy and gastroscopy and others, and so he had to be put under sedation for long periods of time. So we rule out pain.

And secondly, when this thing goes on for months or years, and it causes pain to the families that euthanasia is considered, no such measure has ever been considered by his doctors nor by his family. And so, he will live or die, depending on his body's ability to resist. And under the will of god, because every medical support is given to him.

The French have not spared anything. They brought a lot of civilian doctors from outside the military hospital to join in his treatment and in his investigations for which we are very grateful and very thankful.

BLITZER: Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister of the Palestinian Authority in Paris at a news conference, updating people around the world on the condition of Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader. Nabil Sha'ath saying that Ahmed Qorei, the Palestinian Authority prime minister, also known as Abu Ala, met with Yasser Arafat, saw him in the hospital.

He is in a coma, according to Nabil Sha'ath. That coma, he says, deepened last night, but he is alive. Nabil Sha'ath insisting that the brain, heart and lungs still function of Yasser Arafat.

We were speaking with our reporter over at the Percy medical facility in Paris, Fionnuala Sweeney. Let's bring her back right now.

Did you hear anything specific in those brief comments we heard from Nabil Sha'ath to contradict anything you're hearing at the hospital, Fionnuala?

SWEENEY: Actually, not at all. I think what we're seeing here is a clear attempt by the Palestinian leadership to, once -- once and for all, put an end to all the speculation and rumors that have been swirling around Paris in the last week or so about his health.

Now, part of the contribution to those rumors had been the fact that Yasser Arafat's wife, Suha, as next of kin under French law, really reserved the right about the flow of information, how much we could hear, how much we would be told. And that contributed to all this rumor and counter-rumor about his health.

I think it's interesting to note that Nabil Sha'ath saying there the doctors today completely ruled out poisoning, because that had been another rumor that had been swirling around here, adding to all the other symptoms that we've been hearing. It has been pretty much, as I've been hearing it from Palestinian officials.

He came into hospital 11 days ago, he under went some tests, he began to feel better. And then last Wednesday, while he was undergoing further medical tests, he did slip into coma. And it was after that that his condition began to deteriorate, and after that we began to find that there was a decrease in the flow of information coming to us from the hospital.

And Palestinian officials doing their best in the background to give us a sense of what was going on with Yasser Arafat. But because they're not medical experts themselves, unable to give a complete -- completely definitive account, and so we had all these speculation about what was unconscious, what did being in a coma mean, what was the difference and so forth.

I think another thing that struck me was that basically this is a 75-year-old man who has lived a very full life, a life that has not been easy. In the words of Nabil Sha'ath, "a difficult life," and especially in the Muqata.

I mean, I've been in the Muqata, the compound in Ramallah, I've seen what he eats. He eats very simple food, very simply prepared. But it is not, by any means, a luxury place.

I've heard it described as a dungeon. It lacks air conditioning, and it's really not conducive to anybody, let alone a man in his 70s.

I think Nabil Sha'ath there, Wolf, really at pains to point out that what is going on with Yasser Arafat is, in their minds, completely transparent. He said, and I'm quoting, "I'm relaying to you all the information we have to end all the speculation in the media."

And then also this talk about euthanasia. That has been another rumor that's been swirling around here. "He's on a life support, somebody is going to switch off the button any day now once the Palestinian Authority get their act together," that was the kind of thing that was being said in the background. And Nabil Sha'ath there going at pains to point out that at no point has euthanasia been contemplated by either the doctors or his family.

BLITZER: Fionnuala Sweeney, we'll get back to you. Thanks very much. Fionnuala Sweeney on the scene for us, as she has been now for us for several days at the Paris hospital where Yasser Arafat is being treated.

Let's bring in Ken Pollack, our analyst from the Brookings Institution, the Saban Center. He's joining us from Chicago now.

Ken, as you watch this unfold, the deterioration of Yasser Arafat, what goes through your mind?

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, of course, the biggest question in my mind is what happens in terms of the succession? The Palestinian leadership has been badly fragmented over the last couple of years, they have a large diverse group of security services.

There are clearly a lot of different people who are going to want to step into Yasser Arafat's shoes. And I think it's clear that they are already starting to maneuver, starting to circle. And the only question that we have, I think, for all of us, is whether this succession is going to be settled through conversation over a boardroom or with Kalashnikovs in the streets of Gaza and Ramallah.

BLITZER: It looks like they have their act pretty much together, at least on the surface right now. They sent over the current prime minister, Ahmed Qorei, the former Prime Minister, Mahmoud Abbas, Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister is there in Paris. It looks like the leadership of the Palestinian community, to a certain degree, is rallying behind the formal structure of the Palestinian Authority, including the elements, the more extreme elements of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

POLLACK: Right. Well, the problem is, Wolf, that that could be deceptive. I mean, they all do have an incentive, at least for the moment, to rally behind the current leadership.

But at the end of the day, it's just unclear that Abu Mazen, Abu Ala, Nabil Sha'ath, some of the other moderates who have been around Yasser Arafat for these years, are going to be the ones to emerge. At the end of the day, the Tanzim, Mohammed Dahlan, Jibril Rajoub, these are the ones with the guns, these are the ones who control the power in the Palestinian territories. And it's just not clear over the long term whether they are going to be willing to go along with whatever transition comes along.

That would be a very good scenario if they did, if they all got behind someone like an Abu Mazen. I think that could be a very productive scenario for the Palestinians. But it could be just as likely that they decide that they want to occupy the top slot themselves, or they've got their own candidate. And then you could develop into real infighting among them.

BLITZER: As far as the United States' role right now, it's a sensitive moment in the history of the Middle East. Yasser Arafat looks like he's on the verge of dying right now.

Ed Abbington, a longtime aide, a former U.S. government official, a former consul general in Jerusalem who is now an adviser to the Palestinian Authority, he's quoted by The Associated Press as saying it could be only hours before Yasser Arafat actually dies. And he's there on the scene in Ramallah. So he's not in Paris, but he is in Ramallah.

How high a representation would you guess the Bush administration would send to the funeral of Yasser Arafat?

POLLACK: That's an excellent question, Wolf. Because, of course, if Yasser Arafat were a fully-credited head of state, you would obviously send someone at least the vice president's rank to attend the funeral.

Because Arafat's status is much more questionable, because the Bush administration has made very clear their distaste for Mr. Arafat, you could see a somewhat lower-level official going. And I think that whoever the administration decides to send will be sending a message.

It will be sending a message to the Palestinians, it will be sending a message to the other Arab states. To a certain extent, it will send a message to Israel about how important they believe the succession to Arafat is. And I think, to some extent, you might even be able to say that they will be signaling their willingness to engage in a new peace process, depending on how high a delegation they send. BLITZER: Stand by, Ken, because we're going to have you back later this hour to talk about what's happening in Falluja, in Iraq, as well.

I want to go to Ramallah, though, right now. CNN's Michael Holmes standing by with more on the fate of Yasser Arafat and the political infighting that may be going on right now as far as what happens next.

Michael, what are you hearing?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, hearing much the same as you in terms of Yasser Arafat's condition. We've had numerous high-level sources tell us that he is a "matter of hours" away from death. In fact, one source put it this way: "The president will not see another dawn."

Now, preparations are under way to -- for if that does happen. Now, one thing that is very interesting is the top Islamic cleric for the Palestinian territories is on his way to Paris now, ostensibly to be at Yasser Arafat's bedside, offer his support. But also, there's a feeling, too, that he will be there, too, if necessary, to observe the manner of death, if you like, to declare under Islamic law the death of Yasser Arafat and in a way circumvent any criticism or suspicion surrounding how he dies.

Of course, conspiracy theories have abounded throughout this whole ordeal for the Palestinian people. And that's something that the Palestinian leadership very much wants to avoid. That delegation is headed back here tomorrow to Ramallah.

One thing that we can tell you that has been a matter of discussion, you were talking about funerals and the like. A state funeral is likely to be held. We don't know where. The latest top-rated contender, if you like, is Cairo.

One thing that has been confirmed was something we have been reporting for the last couple of days, and that is Ramallah here, right behind me, in fact, at the Palestinian Authority headquarters, is going to be the likely place of Yasser Arafat's burial. It came up, of course, that Gaza was what the Israelis wanted, Jerusalem was what Yasser Arafat himself wanted.

And it did appear that Ramallah came in late in the game as an option. But it now seems to have won that option. It was Arafat's top aide who made that announcement just an hour or so ago -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Michael, we also heard Nabil Sha'ath, the Palestinian Authority foreign minister, make the charge that the conditions at Muqata, the area behind you, Yasser Arafat, where he's been spending most of his time, almost all of his time over these past two-and-a- half years, plus, that the situation inside is so deteriorated, he believes, Nabil Sha'ath, that that may have contributed to his demise, to Yasser Arafat's deteriorating situation, the lack of sanitation, some of the other problems inside. You've been in there. I was in there a couple years ago, and I'm sure it has gotten much worse since I was there. But based on the last time you were inside the headquarters, the Muqata, what was it like inside?

HOLMES: Well, Wolf, yes, you're right. I've been in there several times. In fact, since the major Israeli incursion in April 2002, when we were here in Ramallah and went in to see Yasser Arafat, I've been in there probably three or four times since then as well. And conditions are very poor.

Yasser Arafat, despite the accusations that he spirited away millions of dollars, which may be proved to be true or untrue, he, himself, has lived a very Spartan lifestyle in there. He eats very bland food. I've had lunch with him on a couple occasions, very bland food, a lot of vegetables.

The conditions, in terms of lack oxygen, I would have to agree with that. It is a very stuffy place in there. And he essentially has lived in pretty much two rooms for the last three years, occasionally coming out to go to prayers, all of 50 feet away in another building in the complex behind me.

But yes, it (INAUDIBLE) and I'm no doctor, but it did not appear to me to be a healthy place at all. I would have to say that's accurate -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And I remember when I walked through there, when I went to interview Yasser Arafat, and it was the middle of the night when we did our interview, very small, very dark, obviously at night. But I remember the smell, everybody smoking cigarettes inside, the windows were closed, and a lot of smoke.

First of all, in the Middle East, almost everyone seems to smoke cigarettes, anyhow, to begin with. But there was a stench of cigarettes. I'm sure that certainly would not contribute to the health of an elderly man like Yasser Arafat to begin with. But do you remember -- do you remember that feeling of smoke inside that building?

HOLMES: Oh, absolutely, Wolf. Every time I've been in there, it's the same. And you're right, there are no open windows even.

And you're right, everybody smokes. His guards smoke, a lot of his cabinet ministers smoke. Everyone who comes to see him, half of them smoke.

And it is a very smoky environment. When I went in there during the incursion, and we went in there, the first thing his guards asked for from those of us who went in were cigarettes.

And it is a very small area, very small building. And where Yasser Arafat himself is, is like a conference area, probably 30 feet by 15 feet. And his bedroom, which is much smaller than that.

He used to -- he used to be a man who used to jog and stay very healthy. And his only mode of exercise in the last three years was essentially walking around that conference table that I know you've seen. He would just do laps around that, just walking.

And the rest of the time he was sitting down. And you're right, in a smoky environment, a very closed, claustrophobic environment, often full of people, as well. Very crowded environment, as well. So, yes, it wouldn't be an ideal place to spend three years in your retiring years, if you like -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Michael Holmes reporting for us. Michael, stand by. We'll be getting back to you.

We have much more on this news. Yasser Arafat now, according to Nabil Sha'ath, the foreign minister of the Palestinian Authority, in a coma that has deepened since last night, although he insists Yasser Arafat is still alive, his brain, his heart, his lungs still function.

He insisted it's not cancer. They've ruled out poisoning. It's unclear what exactly is causing Yasser Arafat's problems. Much more coming up on this story.

Also, much more coming up on the battle of Falluja. We'll talk to the former commander of the 82 Airborne camped outside the rebel- held city about what U.S. troops fighting in Falluja now are up against.

Much more coverage. Stay with us.

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BLITZER: Yasser Arafat remains in a deep, deep coma in a hospital in Paris. The Percy military facility there. His foreign minister, Nabil Sha'ath saying he does not have cancer and has not been poisoned, but he is critically ill right now.

Let's get some assessment what this means for the Middle East peace process. Joining us now from Jerusalem Hirsch Goodman, he's a fellow at the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University, former military affairs correspondent for the "Jerusalem Post."

Hirsch, you're looking at this situation, and this is a critical moment in the Arab/Israeli conflict with the end of Yasser Arafat imminent. May only be hours away, according to some of his advisers. What posture should Israel be taking right now to deal with this moment?

HIRSCH GOODMAN, TEL AVIV UNIVERSITY: Well, I think it's very important, Wolf, that Israel does not get involved in the Palestinian transition process. If Israel supports this version or that, they would be perceived as a Quisling, it would do them a lot of harm. Conversely, I think Israel has got a tremendous interest in being a smooth transition and in -- the alternative is chaos.

And I think Israel can do things to strengthen the new Palestinian leadership once they're in place. They can lift some restrictions, they can create some jobs over here, they can release Palestinian prisoners, they can open ports, they can open airports, they can allow commerce. In other words, without endorsing this or that person, Israel can certainly do a lot to strengthen any new Palestinian regime if it brings stability with it.

BLITZER: So, in other words, what I hear you saying, Hirsch, is there a moment and opportunity now from an optimistic perspective that after Arafat, the Palestinian leadership, whether it's Ahmed Qorei or Mahmoud Abbas or combination thereof or some of the younger Palestinian leaders who might be around, that there may be a moment to try to jump start this peace process, is that what you're saying?

GOODMAN: Yes, I absolutely am. I'm saying we have said Arafat is not a partner. Even the left wing in Israel are not going to shed a single tear on his demise. We hear Abu Ala, Abu Mazen, these are people who want democracy in Palestinian. Those are the people we have to build our future with.

But there is a confluence of events that has happened here. Firstly, the re-election of President Bush and hopefully an understanding from the American administration that they just can't sit back and say he's a failed leader. That failed leader is gone now. There's new opportunities here. And also, the prime minister in Israel, Ariel Sharon, who says we can't continue to occupy four million new Palestinians.

So new Palestinian leadership, somebody we can hopefully speak to, democracy in Palestine, a more determined President Bush and an Israeli prime minister wants to give up territory and seems to me to be a real opportunity.

BLITZER: Hirsch, I've heard from several officials here in Washington that offer this suggestion that how Israel handles the very sensitive, delicate issue of the funeral of Yasser Arafat could go a long way in strengthening some of the more moderate elements of the Palestinian Authority leadership right now. People like Ahmed Qorei or Mahmoud Abbas, people they have dealt with in the past and people they could deal with down the road. How does Israel handle the situation of the funeral, the burial of Yasser Arafat?

GOODMAN: I think we should leave it entirely up to the Palestinians who understand and have enough back channels to Israel to understand that this should not be a public issue, that the decision to maybe hold a pre-funeral sort of ceremony with the entire world could come to, let's say in Cairo, and then do the actual burial in Ramallah, in the Muqata which is so symbolic and so identified with Arafat and so identified with his fight against Israel.

So, it makes a lot of sense, this thing should be done quietly, it should not look like we're imposing and the Palestinians should not make demands that cannot be met like burial in Jerusalem. And I think the sides understand that and, frankly, I have to tell you, that I think Israel and the Palestinian successor leadership have played things very well up until now.

BLITZER: Well, when you say they've played things very well up until now. Elaborate a little bit on that.

GOODMAN: Well, I think we've understood that Sharon has given very strict instructions for no Israeli cabinet administer to speak on Arafat's condition whatsoever. No leaps of joy and no clapping of hands and no shedding of tears, not our business.

Secondly, it is not our business to speak on the succession and I think we've been successful in not doing that.

And thirdly, we initially made an issue of where he was going to be buried by saying not in Jerusalem, we understood it was a mistake. Let it seem, let it be that the Palestinians are making their decisions about their leader. We understand that he is a symbol.

And we also understand that it is desperately important right now to strengthen the interim leadership, otherwise the alternative is chaos. If the fringes take over in a vacuum, there will be chaos and therefore we cannot allow a vacuum and the Palestinian leadership has to assert itself and the best way for it to assert itself is without Israel's help.

BLITZER: I'm going to have you stand by, Hirsch Goodman in Jerusalem and I want to bring in another journalist, a Palestinian journalist, Daoud Kuttab, who is joining us from Ramallah, well-known, highly expected just like Hirsch Goodman is.

First of all, Daoud, tell us what you're hearing about funeral arrangements for Yasser Arafat. There's widespread anticipation that the Palestinian leadership has now settled on the Muqata somewhere in Ramallah for the eventual burial at least as a temporary location. Is that what you're hearing?

DAOUD KUTTAB, PALESTINIAN JOURNALIST: Yes, I am. In the last two days this issue of the location has focused on the Muqata for a number of reasons. Palestinians want to clearly make sure that the issue of the West Bank is always remembered because they are afraid of the disengagement from Gaza that if Arafat was buried in Gaza, that would be the symbolic ignorance of the West Bank.

They also feel very strongly about the last three years. Arafat has been imprisoned in this location. The Muqata has been destroyed -- partially destroyed and Arafat spent the last three years here.

Many feel indirectly the health conditions on this house arrest contributed to his poor health and they want to create a location where people -- dignitaries, officials, even tourists can come and pay their respects to the Palestinian leader and the cause that he's fought for and lived for for so long.

Plus, it is close to Jerusalem. Obviously, Palestinians would like to have him buried on Al Aqsa most and the Israelis have made a big stink about this and I don't think the Palestinians now want to go into a big political argument with Israelis over this issue.

Also many Palestinians will not be able to reach Jerusalem. Today's Jerusalem is not the Jerusalem that I think Palestinians would want their leader to be buried in because it's under complete Israeli control. So, for many reasons Ramallah and specifically this location behind me provide a symbolic and fitting resting place for the Palestinian leader.

BLITZER: Daoud, would there be, based on the scenario that you have heard about, some sort of memorial service, let's say in Cairo or Amman, someplace earlier or maybe after the burial for which world leaders, including leaders from the Arab world, would be able to participate? Or would you anticipate that they would somehow be allowed to come to Ramallah for the actual burial?

KUTTAB: Well, I don't know the answer to that. There is mixed feelings among the leadership. They would very much like people to come here, but they understand some of the Arab leaders have a problem in coming to areas under Israeli control, especially crossing border points where Israeli police are there. Certainly for countries other than Jordan and Egypt who have political diplomatic relations with Israel this would be a problem.

The question is whether this will happen before he is put to rest in Ramallah or after some kind of open memorial service. It's really not known. My feeling is they will try to do something to accommodate the many leaders from the Arab world and from the rest of the world who want to pay the respects to the long-time Palestinian leader especially from many countries and throughout the world.

You know, Arafat has been one of the most known leaders in the Non-Aligned Movement, Asia, Africa, I'm sure the South African president and others would want to pay their respects the Palestinians. So, I think you'll see that many people would want to do that and they will have to come up with an answer to where this event can take place.

BLITZER: Daoud, what about the rift that seemed to develop over the past couple, three days with Suha Arafat, Yasser Arafat's wife based on what Nabil Sha'ath was just saying a little while ago it looks like they worked that out, at least on the surface. But give us your perspective how serious of a problem Suha Arafat might be for the current Palestinian leadership.

KUTTAB: I don't think Suha Arafat will be any problem. I think Suha Arafat shot herself in the foot. She really messed up very big time. I have never heard a unity of the leadership and the people behind or against one person as I've seen in the last 24 hours. She will not be anywhere remembered. She will be very happy if they would allow her to attend any of the funeral arrangements.

So, I think she is in real trouble, even if the leadership would want her to come, the public would be very angry at her. So, I hope they can find some kind of a face-saving solution, but, politically, for the next leadership, I think she's completely out of it.

BLITZER: Give us your assessment of the next leadership. We heard from Hirsch Goodman and we'll bring him back in a moment we heard from Hirsch and he's relatively upbeat that there may be a moment now in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to get negotiations back on track after Arafat with Mahmoud Abbas and Ahmed Qorei and other Palestinian Authority leaders. What's your bottom line assessment?

KUTTAB: Well, I do agree with Hirsch on this particular issue. I think there is a window of opportunity for many reasons. The one issue I'm not sure about is how serious Israelis are going to be. You know, they have refused to talk to Arafat and made him the scapegoat and they hung everything up on this particular excuse.

And I think they had other reasons not wanting to talk to Arafat. Namely, they didn't want to stop settlements and they didn't really want to give up land as we saw what was happening in Gaza. If there was a change of heart in Israel, this would be good news. I think even the most radical groups of Palestinians are going to give the new leadership a space of time -- if I could use the word political honeymoon that they will give that leader a chance to deliver some goods.

They would immediately expect some release of prisoners, possibly people like Marwan Barghouti, the ease or the cancellation of the closure orders and I think that would prepare the mood for some type of political negotiations. How far, how successful they will be will depend a lot on Israel on obviously the new leadership and the Americans.

And with the renewed mandate for President Bush, again, this would be an opportune moment to really put the goal, as President Bush has said, a Palestinian state in the year 2005. We're on the verge of 2005 and this could be very good news for the new year.

BLITZER: Hirsch Goodman, what about what we just heard from Daoud, what about the possibility of someone, a younger Palestinian leader, let's throw out the name he just threw out, Marwan Barghouti, who is serving a life sentence for terrorism, convicted by the Israelis.

He's enormously possible, as you well know, among Palestinians. He's someone that presumably would have a strong base of support if he's released from prison by the Israelis. What are the prospects of that?

GOODMAN: Well, actually he's currently serving country I think five concurrent life sentences for aiding and abetting terrorism, etc., but we have seen many prisoner exchanges in the past. What I feel about Barghouti is that at the moment we need a bridge. Abu Ala and Abu Mazen, these people are a bridge.

But if there are going to be elections in Palestine and these are going to be monitored by international monitors as they themselves want and these should be held within 60 days of so and so and so. I think if would be tremendously important for Marwan Barghouti to be released from prison and allowed to stand for election. I think he will be very, very popular and unlike Arafat and the guard that came back from him Tunis, he's seen as uncorrupt, he's seen as the salt of the earth, he's seen as the son of Palestine and he's a person I have been in backtrack second channel talks with him in the past. He's always spoken about peace and reconciliation. So, I think there's two stages here. One, strength on the current Palestinian leadership and do the prisoner releases, open up the road blocks and do all the things that Daoud mentioned and then when the elections and by popular demand, I think he could be released for prison and then we could be off to a much better future. We'll see.

BLITZER: We'll see, indeed. Hirsch Goodman and Daoud Kuttab, two excellent journalists, a Palestinian and an Israeli joining us for a good, serious discussion on this historic moment in the Middle East. Thanks very much for joining us and we'll have you back very, very soon.

We're following closely developments in Falluja in Iraq this hour, as well. Up next, I'll speak live with the former commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, camped outside the rebel-held city. We'll talk about U.S. troops fighting in Falluja now. What they're up against. Stay with us.

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BLITZER: We're getting this story in from the Associated Press, we're monitoring it. A hostage situation unfolding in Los Angeles right now. According to the AP, it began within the past hour or so. Number of hostages unknown. It is taking place at the Mexican consulate, that would be near Downtown Los Angeles. The incident began unfolding around 8:30 a.m. local time. That is 11:30 a.m. East Coast time with at least one suspect starting a hostage situation. This according to a Los Angeles spokeswoman.

A portion of the area has been evacuated. You're looking at these live pictures. Telephone call by the AP to the Mexican consulate's press office not immediately returned. Now further details, but we're watching this standoff at the Mexican consulate in Los Angeles.

Live pictures coming to us from Los Angeles right now. KCAL, our affiliate out there. We'll watch the story for you and get some more information as it becomes available.

Our top story, the battle for Falluja. U.S. and Iraqi forces fighting their way into the center of that city navigating narrow streets and alley and dodging incoming fire and sidestepping booby- traps.

Joining us now, someone who fully understands what the U.S. and Iraqi allied forces are up against. Major General Charles Swannack was the commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, retiring from the U.S. Army only yesterday. He commanded U.S. troops outside Falluja, leaving Iraq in April.

General, thanks very much for joining us. What is -- your bottom line assessment, what are U.S. troops up against right now?

MAJ. GEN. CHARLES SWANNACK, U.S. ARMY (RET): Well, Wolf, good talking to you today. Falluja is an interesting place and a tough fight. About 300,000 inhabitants of Falluja, more so than that bordered on one side of the Euphrates River and Highway 1 on the other side.

And so, how do you go ahead and find somewhere around 5,000 to 6,000 insurgents fighting what coalition forces try to do over there amidst 300,000 folks. Tough job, very difficult. And I know the marines are doing a great job over there and the paratroopers when I was there did a good job, too.

BLITZER: But it's been booby-trapped, supposedly, with explosives, maybe even suicide bombers. This is a new kind of urban warfare that U.S. troops, special operation forces would be engaged in from previous urban warfare conflicts whether in Somalia or Vietnam or elsewhere.

SWANNACK: Well, it's a different fight, you're exactly right. We have got folks who are technically competent to go in there and put those kind of booby-traps up and you have to go ahead and find them and surgically remove them and then go ahead and continue the fight. We dealt with IEDs while I was there, we dealt with car bombs when I was there and dealt with surface to air missiles shooting down our helicopters when I was there.

And so, they are going to go ahead and use every means they can to go ahead and fight this fight, but the fight is not so much about the insurgents. The folks I talked about, 5,000, I think, to 6,000. The fight is also for that 295,000 people that belong to Falluja to get them to go ahead and tell us where those booby-traps are, where the car bombs are and where the daggoned explosive devices trying to kill our soldiers are.

BLITZER: What we've heard from some of the insurgents is they hope there is widespread casualties, even among the civilians, especially among the U.S. forces, of course. But even among civilians to poison them towards the United States and the interim Iraqi government. This is a political battle to a certain degree that's unfolding on the military battlefield.

SWANNACK: Well, it's a strategic battle what you are talking about and they're absolutely trying to go ahead and sway, not so much the troopers fighting the fight over there and the marines, it's trying to sway the rest of the public opinion back here in the United States and the Arab world to go ahead and cause us to go ahead and shut down this operation.

Well, we're not going to shut down the operation. It's a just cause in my opinion, it's the right thing to go ahead and do. As a matter fact, your grandchildren and my grandchildren will go ahead and enjoy the fruits and liberty and freedom throughout the world more so because of the great soldiers, sailors, airman and marines fighting that fight there today.

BLITZER: What is your assessment of the Iraqi fighters? The Iraqi troops who are engaged, fighting alongside the U.S. Marines and U.S. soldiers right now. Are they doing what they're supposed to be doing? In other words, are they showing up for the fight? SWANNACK: Absolutely. We went ahead and trained about 5,600 of Iraqi civil defense corps troopers and they can go ahead and meet the mettle. You give them a good body armor, you give them a good weapon - AK-47 and you give them some helmet and they can go ahead and fight the fight. They will stand toe to toe with American forces to fight the fight. When they don't have those type of implements and that equipment, it gets kind of tough.

And I think we saw in the former battle of Falluja just after we left that difference in terms of the ability based upon the equipping of the force and not so much the training of the force but they're going to be trained and equipped very well and they can carry the fight out. That is the future of Iraq. The security forces being provided from Iraq is the future of Iraq to provide the freedoms to those people over there.

BLITZER: As you know, general, historically there's been a rivalry between the U.S. Marine Corps and the U.S. Army. In recent years the whole notion of joint operations has been fully implemented, but as soldiers go in together with marines, how coordinated and how effective are they in working together in this kind of military offensive?

SWANNACK: Well, in the last 33 years that I've been in the military, Wolf, I got to tell you that we have grown in terms of joint capabilities. I had special operation forces working for us when I was over in Iraq. I fought alongside the 1st Marine Division. I also turned over most of southern Iraq to the marine division and then I turned over all western Iraq to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. We are joined at the hip in terms of jointness.

We can go ahead and use each other's helicopter or gunships and use U.S. Air Force air combat power and I'll tell you what, we have basically the same machine guns -- we wear a different uniform. One says "U.S. Army" and one says "U.S. Marines," but we can do the job together. And that's the way it will have to get done fighting our nation's wars.

BLITZER: How worried are you about: A, collateral damage, namely, civilians getting killed; and B, friendly fire, namely U.S. troops unfortunately, tragically, killing other U.S. troops?

SWANNACK: Well, our military has grown a lot in that term with precision fires. We used JDAAMs to go ahead and take out some targets while I was there both during the fight north and also near Falluja. And so the application of combat power is very important to go ahead and be precise because, like I said before, we're trying to take out those folks that want to kill us, 5,000 to 6,000 in Falluja, but you also have to go in and safeguard the other 295,000.

And so, the application that combat power very critical. I believe we have precision fires, both ground fires and air-to-ground fires that can do that mission. So, I feel pretty good about that.

BLITZER: Major General Charles Swannack, just retired yesterday from the U.S. Army. Congratulations, moving into civilian life. Thanks for your duty over these decades. Your service to the United States of America, appreciate it very much.

SWANNACK: Thanks so much, Wolf. Good talking to you today.

BLITZER: Good luck down the road.

I'll be back later today, every week day, 5:00 p.m. Eastern for WOLF BLITZER REPORTS. Among other things, we're continuing to follow developments out of Iraq and Falluja and we're also following the condition of the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Some of his aides saying it could be only hours before he dies. We're watching that. We'll see what unfolds.

Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. LIVE FROM with Tony Harris and Betty Nguyen, that's coming up next.

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