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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Slaughterhouse Discovered in Iraq Presumed to be Where Hostages Were Beheaded; Bush Nominates Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General

Aired November 10, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
With American forces now in the center of Falluja, we're reminded of a pair of words and the gulf that divides them necessary and sufficient.

Earlier today, Ken Pollack, who knows a fair bit about Iraq, put it plainly. Going into Falluja, he said, was absolutely necessary. A number of factors made it so. Elections, he said, would be impossible with insurgents in control of the city, a city of 300,000 people. American forces needed to send a message. Insurgents needed to be routed.

But necessary, he reminds us, is not sufficient. Not to ensure that elections take place, not to find a way to bring the Sunnis back into the political process or to get oil flowing and the lights burning again, not even to make sure that Falluja today won't be Ramadi tomorrow or Samara next year but, without it, nothing else is even possible.

So, everything else it is and hopes to be called the work this week in Falluja a bridging operation, if you will, between necessary and sufficient with a fair distance still to go.

The whip begins with that and our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre, Jamie the headline tonight.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, U.S. commanders caution that there's still some tough fighting to come in Falluja but they say the insurgents are surrounded and will certainly be defeated and they claim to have killed so far more than 500.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

Next to the White House and the president's choice to be the next attorney general of the United States, a man who will make history, a man with a bit of history as well. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King with the watch tonight, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that man is a choice the president calls judge and friend -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. Next to the nagging question of mishaps and mistakes and other irregularities at the polls on Election Day. CNN's Dan Lothian with that, Dan the headline.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Aaron, the election is long over but some people are refusing to let go. In cyberspace the chatter over election fraud is growing louder. We'll take a listen -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dan, thank you.

And finally Ramallah and more and more what looks like the beginning of the end for Yasser Arafat. John Vause is there for us tonight so, John, a headline.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the word from Paris tonight Yasser Arafat is still alive. The word from Ramallah tonight his funeral could happen as soon as Friday -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also on the program tonight, we'll look at the legacy of the attorney general who's been called every name in the book from hero on down. Whatever you think of the man, John Ashcroft's time in office left a mark on the country and on the laws of the land.

Later, the assault on Falluja as seen in still photos, many of them certain to appear on the front pages of newspapers around the country tomorrow morning, which reminds us, newspaper pictures and all, the headlines, the roosters, all the rest, morning papers will wrap it up in the hour, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight in Falluja, a large portion of it, perhaps 70 percent of the city now under American or Iraqi control. Tonight, we can be grateful that for all the scenes of human slaughterhouses and street-to-street fighting the troops have encountered, so far as we know the larger nightmare scenario has not yet come to pass perhaps because many of the rebels and most of the rebel leaders found discretion the better part of valor and left before the shooting began, something we'll take up in a moment.

We begin first with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): If the insurgents had a plan for the defense of Falluja, it quickly crumbled under the weight of U.S. artillery, air power and armor. Street fighting remains intense at times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can fire from the mosque directly south of us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ones we can see, yes. MCINTYRE: Mosques used by insurgents as command posts have come under heavy attack.

STAFF SGT. SAM MORTIMER, U.S. MARINES: When they're using the mosques to do command and control for insurgents and kill my fellow Marines and fellow soldiers and airmen that are out here, I mean no holds barred, all the gloves are off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where they at? Are they inside? Right now. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) keep in mind that we're right behind the house too.

MCINTYRE: But with most of Falluja resembling a ghost town it's now growing more apparent that along with much of the population many of the insurgents fled in advance of the assault. What's left appears to be a small number of desperate and disorganized remnants.

LT. GEN. JOHN SATTLER, 1ST MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE: That they are not able to communicate, to work out any coordination they are now in small pockets blind moving throughout the city and we will continue to hunt them down and destroy them.

MCINTYRE: According to one Marine commander insurgents have been pushed into a narrow strip along Falluja's main east/west highway. He estimated 70 percent of the city was under control of U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Mop up operations are expected to last another day or two. U.S. casualties are still described as light with enemy dead put at more than 500 and some captured insurgents are said to be giving up valuable information.

Videotape of a flag-raising by soldiers of Iraq's 1st Brigade was replayed at a press briefing near Falluja featuring both a U.S. and Iraqi general. The images of Americans and Iraqis standing shoulder- to-shoulder are considered vital to counter sympathy for the insurgents and their anti-occupation message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And our brothers in arms we're privileged to be fighting next to you and you're doing a great job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Iraqi troops also reported what appeared to be -- finding what appeared to be hostage slaughterhouses, locations where kidnap victims were beheaded. Among the evidence found at the sites video on CDs and black clothing similar to that worn by terrorists on hostage videotapes -- Aaron.

BROWN: Photo opportunities aside is it possible to verify either through embeds or other sources how well the Iraqi forces have actually done and what the Iraqi forces have actually done?

MCINTYRE: Well, there's -- you know obviously there are far more U.S. forces than Iraqi forces and while Iraqi forces have been given a lead role in sensitive sites, cultural sites like mosques, it's clear that the U.S. forces are doing the heavy fighting.

We say today, for instance, once the Jolan (ph) District, which was thought to be an insurgent stronghold was secured, it was at that point it was turned over to some Iraqi forces, again after U.S. Marines had done the heavy lifting.

BROWN: And is there concern there about the implications that all of us can figure out about the implications of so many of what they thought were about 3,000 insurgents having fled?

MCINTYRE: Well, the soldiers and Marines who are doing the fighting didn't seem to be too concerned about it. They seem somewhat relieved that they weren't meeting that resistance and the Pentagon has insisted all along that the goals for this mission were simply to free Falluja and prevent its use as a base of operations. There's a recognition though that they're going to have to continue the hunt for the insurgents and that this is not the last stand.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

Jane Arraf has been embedded with the infantry as they fought their way into Falluja and Jane joins us now on the telephone, Jane, what can you report tonight?

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (by telephone): Aaron, a very interesting look at the industrial part of town with the Army today as they went through what we saw was a picture of an insurgency that has made careful preparations for the arrival of U.S. forces, not just the booby trapped buildings but as was alluded to earlier a plan to communicate between other, openings between building so they could slip from building.

Anti-tank mines laid in piles. We went into one place that looks like a bomb making factory. There was even food left as if someone had left very hurriedly. We have to remember this is the first time that U.S. forces have really been in Falluja, in rebel strongholds, in insurgent strongholds like that since April when they pulled out.

As for that slaughterhouse, the report of a slaughterhouse in the north of the city we're still trying to confirm that that indeed was a place where they killed hostages -- Aaron.

BROWN: How much of the city is being blown apart?

ARRAF: Well, generally it's taking a very heavy bombardment and if you go down these streets in the industrial section, for instance, there's hardly a building that's untouched.

There was one we saw that was hit by a JDAM between a 500 and 2,000-pound bomb where almost everything was destroyed except for a big pink sofa, surreal scenes in that area, hardly any civilians but scenes of real devastation, blown apart though given the weapons they used might not quite fit. Essentially they've been targeting building where they believe insurgents had been, buildings that insurgents might use, so you might have a few untouched houses next to one that's totally destroyed. It's that sort of scene.

BROWN: Just one other question, Jane. This is a city that at its peak there are 250,000, 300,000 people there. How many civilians are you encountering?

ARRAF: Very eerie. In the part that we're in, in the eastern sector, none, zero. Soldiers we're with have not seen a single civilian. This was clearly an area where insurgents had a foothold, where it was an insurgent stronghold where civilians did not go even though it's partly a residential district full of very nice houses. The civilians appear to have left quite a long time ago for the insurgents to do their work and regain the entire area with explosives.

BROWN: Well, Jane, it's good to talk to you. Take care out there and hopefully the people you are with will take care as well, Jane Arraf who is traveling with an Army infantry unit as it makes its way through Falluja.

We're joined now by John Lee Anderson who's been covering Iraq for "The New Yorker" magazine. He's also the author of "The Fall of Baghdad." Mr. Anderson is in Dubai tonight. He comes to us by videophone. We'll do our best to grapple with the two-second delay and the rest. It's good to have you with us. As you hear the reporting out of there...

JOHN LEE ANDERSON, "THE NEW YORKER" (by videophone): Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: ...what's your take on it?

ANDERSON: Well, I'm not surprised by what I'm hearing about the -- as Jane Arraf was just saying about the emptiness of the parts of Falluja she's been in, nor am I surprised to hear that contrary to it being -- although the Marines have met stiff resistance they're not finding as many insurgents as they thought.

I was expecting this from the beginning when this invasion or rather this assault on Falluja was announced weeks in advance and the city itself was only sealed off about four or five days before the actual battle began. I mean insurgents being insurgents it's not their place nor is it wise to stand and fight necessarily.

BROWN: Yes.

ANDERSON: In this case, I think that they probably left a hardcore in town in order to make it bloody to give the appearance and for them symbolically important task of showing that they could do battle even if they ultimately lose in Falluja.

BROWN: The dilemma...

ANDDERSON: You know there are undoubtedly insurgents fanned out throughout Iraq.

BROWN: Yes. The dilemma it seemed to me is that if you don't announce that you're going in, you've got some portion of 300,000 innocent civilians who then become very vulnerable. By announcing you're going in, you at least give them a chance to get out. It's trying to balance the political and the military.

ANDERSON: Well, of course, and that's the pernicious conundrum that the United States forces have found themselves in since the beginning. However, even in allowing civilians to flee a city like this, obviously insurgents don't necessarily have to wear a uniform and usually don't in this case.

I'm not aware of any stringing process that went on while the "civilians" were fleeing the city, just as there was none last April during the uprising in the spring which set this all off really. And to all intents and purposes Falluja has been a war zone ever since.

So, the Fallujan residents, what will -- I guess what will be interesting to see is once this mopping up is completed and the residents of Falluja return and that ostensibly it will be in the hands of Iraqi forces with some back up from Americans to control exactly what the nature of the U.S.-Iraqi relationship in Falluja will be. I think it will be a very important watershed in terms of what happens next.

BROWN: Just help me understand that a little bit more. You will be looking for what in that relationship?

ANDERSON: For a sea change, for an improvement. It has been an abysmal relationship since American forces went in there and the first shooting incidents began at the end of April, 2003. This is very difficult. It's not just a down. Falluja to some extent is symbolic of the entire area and the Sunni population.

If by taking Falluja the leaders of the Sunni community, which extends out from Falluja to other towns Ramadi, Samarra and so on, where we've had so much difficulty, if the hostility and resentment is so great, if the civilian damage has been so great that the leaders of the community are able to effectively carry out a boycott of the upcoming January elections, this siege will merely have created a new set of problems and there is -- there are indications that there are forces at work in that direction.

BROWN: Yes.

ANDERSON: In other words, if there is a Sunni boycott of the election in January, the election itself will become a new and dangerous watershed. It will formalize the emerging communal split in the country, the sectarian split between the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunni and you will have laid the ground seeds for something close to a civil war.

BROWN: John, it's good to talk to you again. We appreciate your time out of Dubai.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, John Lee Anderson who is covering for "The New Yorker" magazine.

The battle -- as the battle for Falluja was playing out halfway around the world the president today began the formal reshuffling of his cabinet. Just a day after Attorney General John Ashcroft announced his resignation, not unexpected, the president named his replacement, White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales.

He's already made a considerable influence on matters in Iraq and particularly the war on terror. If he gets the promotion, and he probably will, he will also be a pioneer.

Several reports over the course of the program tonight beginning at the White House and John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president didn't look long or far in choosing Alberto Gonzales as his nominee to be the new attorney general.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He always gives me his frank opinion. He is a calm and steady voice in times of crisis.

KING: White House counsel the past four years, before that a Texas Supreme Court justice, now in line to be the nation's first Hispanic attorney general.

ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: I know well that some government positions require a special level of trust and integrity.

KING: Gonzales is as soft spoken as John Ashcroft is controversial but behind his easygoing style is a fierce loyalty to Mr. Bush and an approach to terrorism and government secrecy issues that Democrats and liberal groups promise will be an issue in confirmation hearings.

RALPH NEAS, PRES., PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY: Alberto Gonzales and John Ashcroft have consistently decided that it was OK to abuse civil liberties and to go way to the right in terms of adjusting the terrorism issue.

KING: Gonzales, for example, authored legal memos allowing the administration to deny Geneva Convention protections to some detainees in the war on terror and backs expanded surveillance and other controversial powers in the post-9/11 Patriot Act.

BUSH: His sharp intellect and sound judgment have helped shape our policies in the war on terror.

KING: Ashcroft submitted his resignation a week ago and Mr. Bush quickly settled on Gonzales. Aides say the decision was based on legal skills and trust but concede some also see political gain in nominating a man long part of the president's outreach to Latinos.

BUSH: Embrace Judge Al Gonzales. Thank you, judge, for coming. I appreciate you being with us.

GONZALES: Just give me a chance to prove myself. That is a common prayer for those in my community. Mr. President, thank you for that chance.

KING: Democrats promise tough questions but most predict speedy confirmation for Gonzales. For his part, Mr. Bush did nothing to tamp down speculation on more cabinet turnover, declining to answer directly when asked at an Oval Office event whether Secretary of State Powell is staying on for the new term.

BUSH: I'm proud of my secretary of state. He's done a heck of a good job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And senior officials say the president was being vague for good reason. They say Secretary Powell will stay on but for a short period of time that the White House is as yet unwilling to define.

Also and perhaps related, Aaron, White House officials say they're still unclear or at least they're still unwilling to discuss with us whether National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will get a new cabinet post or head home to California soon -- Aaron.

BROWN: One question on Mr. Gonzales. Do we now assume, he'd always been considered to be on the short list of a possible Supreme Court vacancy, do we now assume that that will not happen should a vacancy occur?

KING: If a vacancy occurs in the short term, you should assume that but many here at the White House say two or three years as attorney general, if the president gets as many think, two or three Supreme Court nominees in the next vacancies in the second term, don't think he won't look to Judge Gonzales down the road a bit.

BROWN: John, thank you, John King at the White House tonight.

Later in the program more on the changing of the guard at the Justice Department. We'll look at legacies, the legacy Mr. Ashcroft leaves behind and what Judge Gonzales might face as a result.

Also ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, Election Day 2004 sorting through the glitches do widespread reports of voter irregularities add up to conspiracy or just Internet chat, a break first?

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: One of the hangovers of the presidential election last week is the belief, unshakable to some especially on the Internet that there was widespread vote fraud. Several cases have surfaced. There could be more. Will they ever reach the level of problems found in the 2000 election?

Some will argue yes. Some already are arguing yes. Others looking closely say for now at least not even close, reporting tonight CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN (voice-over): MIT political science professor Charles Stewart (ph) has been pointing and clicking his way through a cyber onslaught of election conspiracies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I found this thing that's really outrageous. What do you think?

LOTHIAN: From e-mails to blogs screaming grand theft America, some believe massive fraud cost Senator Kerry a critical number of votes. Here's why. Some small Florida counties, like Holmes and Franklin heavily Democrat went overwhelmingly for President Bush.

While some view this with suspicion, experts say the reality is so-called Dixie Democrats have consistently gone Republican for president and voting records back that up.

In Cuyahoga County, Ohio, one city recorded thousands of ballots more than the actual number of registered voters, fraud? Officials say it was a typo, 18,472 should have read 8,472. The mistake never made it into the official count.

And in Carteret County, North Carolina, 4,500 votes were lost when an electronic voting machine prematurely reached capacity. Officials say the votes can't be recovered but they were not enough to impact the presidential race.

All across the south and across the country, a laundry list of problems. Electionline.org has documented many of them.

ED POND, CARTERET COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS: Machines that didn't work well. There were lines that were way too long in way too many places. There were shortages of provisional ballots.

LOTHIAN: The question is do all of these problems or perceived problems add up to a conspiracy or is all of this just normal post election irregularities? That is what electionline.org and professors over at MIT are hoping to find out. While they have no reason to believe they'll locate thousands of missing votes or find widespread fraud, they are conducting studies and audits working to locate any cracks in the system.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To actually get the reports that, in fact, will be generated from this election and figure out ways of auditing, as you say, the actual outcomes that occurred.

LOTHIAN: Even as the loud chatter of conspiracy continues in cyberspace.

(END VIDEOTAPE) LOTHIAN: Six Democratic members of Congress, including Robert Wexler, sent a letter to the General Accountability Office, or GAO, calling on the agency to investigate voting irregularities. They want to learn how widespread or valid complaints from voters really are -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, I think we all would like to know that. I've probably only gotten 2,000 e-mails on this particular one. One of the things that people say is that in those counties where e-machines were used, electronic voting machines were used, tended for one reason or another to favor President Bush, as opposed to counties where paper ballots or punch card ballots or old style voting machines were used. Is there, in fact, any evidence if that is true?

LOTHIAN: There's no widespread evidence of that. There's sort of anecdotal evidence. There were some places in Florida, for instance, where people complained that they went up, touched the screens, tried to vote for Senator Kerry and instead all of their votes were switched to Republicans. Those behind the machines, the companies that put out those machines said that those were sort of isolated incidents not widespread -- Aaron.

BROWN: I suppose one person's isolated incident is another person's widespread. Dan, thank you very much, Dan Lothian in Boston tonight.

A quick look now at some of the other stories that made news tonight. A major in the U.S. Marines who ran a detention camp in the southern part of Iraq was found guilty today of mistreating a prisoner and dereliction of duty, a lesser charge.

Last year Major Clark Pollice (ph) ordered another soldier to drag an Iraqi prisoner from a holding cell by his neck. The prisoner later died. Major Pollice could face possible dismissal and time in the stockade, no sentencing yet.

The Department of Homeland Security has lowered the threat level at five financial institutions on the East Coast from orange to yellow, the companies in New York City, New Jersey and in Washington, D.C. They were put on heightened alert three months ago after a computer disk with detailed photos of the companies was found in Pakistan and linked to terrorists.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, as Attorney General of the U.S. John Ashcroft was in many, many ways a lightning rod, how the man on track to replace him compares.

Also ahead a window into the battle of Falluja, still photos from the midst of the fighting.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back now to politics and justice and the office where they intersect. The position of U.S. attorney general is a political appointment. And, as such, part of the job is to carry out the wishes of the president.

For John Ashcroft, that meant executing the war on terror and, by they extension, the Patriot Act. If approved by the Senate, Alberto Gonzales will inherit those duties, familiar territory for the White House counsel, but also complicated and potentially messy.

We begin this segment with CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alberto Gonzales may learn first-hand what John Ashcroft meant when he said the attorney general's job was both awarding and depleting. He is stepping into a role which by all accounts demands every bit of energy a person can muster. Supporters say he's up to the challenge.

BRAD BERENSON, FORMER ASSOCIATE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: He's extremely well-qualified for this position by experience and by temperament.

ARENA: If confirmed, Gonzales will be the administration's point man on getting portions of the Patriot Act renewed and pushing through judicial nominees. He will also oversee some politically-charged investigations already under way.

There's the Halliburton probe and the investigation into who leaked the name of a covert CIA operative. And, of course, there are a series of legal challenges that may drastically alter the administration's detention of enemy combatants.

Unlike John Ashcroft, Gonzales is clearly a close Bush confidante. Some suggest that could jeopardize his independence.

JEFF FOGEL, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: It's not simply being a pawn. It's being a lawyer who can misuse the application of the law to assist the White House.

ARENA: While the attorney general often takes the hit for how the Bush administration is running the war on terror, Ashcroft was not part of the president's inner circle and at times disagreed with him. Still, his boss says he served with excellence.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The nation is safer and more just today because John Ashcroft has served our country so well.

ARENA: The September 11 attacks clearly defined the Justice Department's mission under Ashcroft. He was charged with redefining its focus from reacting to preventing terrorist attacks.

Terror prosecutions were hailed as successes toward that goal by some and the worst example of overzealous government by others. The Patriot Act, which was crafted to bring down the wall between intelligence and criminal divisions, was criticized for going too far in diminishing civil liberties. PETER RUBIN, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: I think that he has taken extreme positions that were never taken by the United States before in some areas, including civil liberties. And I think that, in the name of the war on terror, he's taken actions that I don't think have been particularly successful.

ARENA: But even his critics say Ashcroft showed conviction. And like it or not, there was never any doubt on where he stood on an issue.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: To those that scare peace- loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this. Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national immunity and diminish our resolve.

ARENA (on camera): Plagued by health problems this past year, Ashcroft told the president, the Justice Department would be well- served by new leadership and fresh inspiration. He says he'll direct his energies toward -- quote -- "other challenging horizons."

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I'm joined tonight from San Diego by Randall Hamud, a civil rights attorney who represented several people detained after 9/11, people held as material witnesses by the Justice Department, and in Washington, Tom Fitton, the president of the watchdog group Judicial Watch. And we're pleased to have you both.

Tom, there are lots of ways you could look at General Ashcroft. I think his critics would say he was a grandstander at times, that he oversold cases, so-called terrorist cases, only to lose them in court. As you look at his record in brief, how good to you think he was?

TOM FITTON, PRESIDENT, JUDICIAL WATCH: Oh, I think he was good enough, especially given the post-9/11 circumstances that he had to deal with. He was charged with enforcing the Patriot Act, which was a reasonable extension of law enforcement tools to terrorism that were available to federal law enforcement, often, in many cases, related to the mafia or just going after white-collar criminals.

And I think he was unfairly tarred as going after civil liberties when he was just using common law enforcement tools, or law enforcement tools that would have been commonly used in other law enforcement areas that folks wanted used against terrorism. Remember, he was enforcing a law passed by the overwhelming majority of congressmen and senators and signed into law by the president. And he went to town. And a lot of people criticize him for it.

But some might suggest that some of the arrests he ordered and the detainees, in terms of the immigration charges, may have prevented further terrorist acts, certainly in the days immediately after 9/11.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: They may have and they may not. That's a very -- I don't want to spend a lot of time on this part.

FITTON: Sure.

BROWN: But that's a very speculative argument to say they may have, because we don't know that they have.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: What we know is -- I understand that. What we know is that they went to court in some of the cases and they collapsed in court. That is what we know.

(CROSSTALK)

FITTON: And many other cases, Aaron, where you had terrorists plead guilty and cells were disrupted and financing was disrupted.

BROWN: Absolutely.

FITTON: And financing was disrupted.

BROWN: Absolutely.

FITTON: And it was that aggressive tack that he deserves credit for. And arresting people on immigration charges, you can't complain about. These folks were here illegally. To send them out was probably a prudent thing to do, especially after 9/11.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Tom, I'm not arguing that.

Randall, briefly as you can, you're going to take a pretty contrary view of what the record is on General Ashcroft.

RANDALL HAMUD, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Absolutely.

I think he was a right-wing zealot. I think he used the office of attorney general to further a right-wing agenda. Remember, besides the Patriot Act, he attempted to interfere with the right-to-die law in the state of Oregon. He attempted to gather abortion records of female patients in New York hospitals. He attacked medical marijuana. He attacked Greenpeace.

And with respect to his enforcement with the Patriot Act, he did not catch any terrorist ever proved to have been part of the 9/11 conspiracy or part of al Qaeda or having perpetrated any terrorist acts here in the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

(CROSSTALK)

HAMUD: It was very terrible record of his.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK.

I think it's a mixed record. I think if you look, for example, at the Lackawanna case up in Buffalo, you would have to say that those guys, whether they were planning to do something or not, had certainly put themselves in a circumstance where you could argue they were not operating in the interests of the United States.

HAMUD: They weren't operating contrary to the United States because they were planning nothing in the United States. The allegation is, they were trying to get to Afghanistan.

And look at the Detroit case, where, basically, the Justice Department, under John Ashcroft's watch, cooked the books, withheld exculpatory evidence from the defense, and has caused the judge to order a new trial and to chastise the Justice Department for, basically, persecuting, instead of prosecuting, according to the constitutional protections.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And, Tom, I think there's -- the Detroit -- there are two cases, I think, that stand out for the critics. One is the Detroit case, which has clearly collapsed on the government. And the other case is the Brandon Mayfield case out in Portland, which clearly should never have been brought.

FITTON: Well, when you're prosecuting all of the cases that the Justice Department was charged with prosecuting after 9/11, in an abundance of caution, you're going to have local offices run into problems like this at the U.S. attorney level.

To blame John Ashcroft for the collapse of the Detroit case, which has not ended yet, by the way, I think is a stretch. And, you know, when you talk about civil liberties, you have got to place everything in context. In the previous administration, we had Waco under Janet Reno. We had the Elian Gonzalez siege down in Miami. There was nothing comparable with John Ashcroft.

John Ashcroft was charged with enforcing the law to try to protect Americans from terrorism after 9/11. Was it enforced perfectly? Of course not. Any administrator of a large organization such as the Justice Department is going to be subject to criticism. Was his heart in the right place? Yes. Was the Patriot Act a commonsensical law? I think a lot of people, when they look carefully at it, would agree and would agree with John Ashcroft that a lot of the criticism of the Patriot Act is overstated.

BROWN: That -- I'm going to leave it there, but that's a point, I think -- and we'll invite you back to do so. We'll come back and talk about, because there are critics really on both the right and the left of the Patriot Act.

FITTON: Sure. BROWN: And we ought to look at that. It's good to talk to you both. And we'll talk again soon. Thanks.

Still to come on the program, what next in the Middle East after Yasser Arafat, as is widely predicted, passes away?

And later, of course, morning papers.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As murky as the reports on Yasser Arafat's condition have been this week, last week or the week before, today, it became clear whatever his affliction turns out to be, it's almost certainly killing him. Even close aides now admit as much.

And, as they do, they and others in and out of the Palestinian community have begun trying to impose some order on the end of a notably chaotic life.

And so from Ramallah tonight, here's CNN's John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When a senior Islamic cleric arrived at Yasser Arafat's hospital many thought this would finally be it. They were wrong.

SHEIK TAISSER BAYOUD TAMIMI, SENIOR ISLAMIC CLERIC (through translator): He's alive and well. He's alive and well. Yes, he's sick and his situation is very critical but he's alive.

VAUSE: But a life support machine is all that is keeping Arafat alive and soon that will not be enough.

NABIL SHA'ATH, PALESTINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: His liver is malfunctioning. His kidneys are malfunctioning. He has brain hemorrhage. And so there's many weakening factors. Life support can not really deal with all of these factors.

VAUSE: It could be hours doctors say, unlikely to be days. But given Arafat's religious beliefs, no one is willing to intervene.

SHEIK IKRIMA SABRI, SENIOR ISLAMIC CLERIC (through translator): In Islam the machines cannot be disconnected.

VAUSE: A few thousand marched in Bethlehem to show their support, and a few hundred gathered in Ramallah. Most Palestinians it seems believe their leader is already gone. The weeks of conflicting reports have left them accepting the inevitable; 10,000 posters of Arafat have already been printed. And many, like Hussein Al-Julani, a store owner in Ramallah, are just waiting for the official announcement.

HUSSEIN AL-JULANI, STORE OWNER (through translator): Even if he doesn't die to be claiming to be dead means that now is the time to prepare for the funeral.

VAUSE: And after days of negotiations with the Israelis, Palestinian officials have decided Arafat's body will be flown to Egypt. Funeral services could be held at Cairo Airport.

MAGID ABDUL FATAH, SPOKESMAN FOR EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): It is something limited and in an official framework.

VAUSE: Then a final helicopter flight back to Arafat's compound. The rubble and debris which marked the battles with Israeli troops, the crushed cars which were piled high, symbols of defiance which Arafat refused to remove now being cleared away making room for a mausoleum.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Palestinian officials insist Ramallah will not be Arafat's final resting place. When there's a lasting peace with Israel and a Palestinian state, his body, they say, will be buried in their capital, East Jerusalem. Until then, this will be a mark of defiance, the Palestinian leader remaining in his West Bank compound until his dream of statehood comes true.

And, Aaron, just a short time ago, a flurry of activity outside the Paris hospital where Yasser Arafat is being treated, journalists assembling, television lights being turned on, also, right here at Arafat's compound, some people gathering. This could be the announcement we've been waiting for -- Aaron.

BROWN: Yes, we're in one of those sort of odd positions where it does appear that a joint announcement is going to be made from Paris and from Ramallah. And while we can speculate as to what it is, and viewers can, too, we don't know. So we'll let you go try and figure out what's going on and we'll come back to you as we can, OK?

Thank you, John -- John Vause.

Again, as John said, reporters have been called to the hospital in Paris. There's a similar call being made in Ramallah. There is some sense that a major announcement is in the works on Mr. Arafat. And we'll just have to see.

We'll take a break first.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, the battle for Falluja from the ground, still photos of the war in the street. Morning papers coming up, too.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we pick things up here where we began the program, the battle of Falluja.

To the forces on the ground, the only thing necessary of course is to stay alive. And, in truth, that goes for reporters embedded with the troops. Last night, you heard a journalist for "The L.A. Times" how happy he was to be alive. Tonight, Scott Peterson of "The Christian Science Monitor" describes his experiences. He's been with the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine since the assault began days ago.

We talked with him earlier today, the fighting going strong.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCOTT PETERSON, "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": The units that I've been operating with are in the northeast of the city. Just about every unit I think that is involved in Falluja at the moment is getting sniped at. They're getting shot at regularly.

The Marine and Army casualties have not been very high. In fact, they've been incredibly low. But that doesn't mean that there's not an awful lot of lead flying around. And it seems to heat up as the day goes by.

We heard well in advance of this offensive beginning that insurgents had been leaving, had been going to other places. But, certainly, there really were and are plenty of insurgents here. It's just a question of finding them.

The ones that I've been operating with, they are tired. But they're also, when they're active, they are also very much pumped on adrenaline. Today, when we were clearing houses, it was extraordinary to see the amount of energy that was put into the scout teams that I was with. They really were revved up. They were using explosives to blow down doors. They were jumping from roof to roof to get to different buildings that they couldn't get in, in the front door. They were crossing all sorts of just breach ladders they used. It was quite extraordinary.

They know this is the real thing. This is combat. And they have an adversary out there that has taken a very bloody toll up to this point. Until today, I saw more dead insurgents than I actually saw live civilians, because everybody has left the city.

The pictures that I have of civilians, in most cases, they are men. They've been left behind in order to protect their houses or homes from looting. They're actually found when Marines go into their home and find them, revved up, charging through, not sure what to expect. And they find people who are sitting there with their arms up and hoping that no one's going to pull the trigger.

In terms of control, I think that that really is a relative idea and one that really doesn't apply to Falluja. The real proof of what has or has not been achieved here is going to be seen and played out in the coming weeks. And I don't think anyone is predicting an early departure for Marines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The work of Scott Peterson, who is working these days for "The Christian Science Monitor." Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to do morning papers. I've been on an airplane today. I have no voice left. What is it about airplanes that does that? I don't know.

"Stars and Stripes" starts it off. "U.S. Troops Control Most of Falluja," the headline. "U.S. Officials Believe Most Insurgents Have Fled the City." Look at this picture here, if you can. "Troops' Bravery Honored in Iraq." These are all Purple Heart winners. Some day, one of them will run for president and someone will say they didn't earn the Purple Heart. Welcome to America.

"International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." I suspect -- just suspect this headline will change by tomorrow, based on the reporting we're getting out of Paris. "U.S. Troops Cornering Insurgents in Falluja."

"The Washington Times," there was some -- oh. "Bush Names Gonzales Attorney General." That's their lead. They like that story. "Iraqis Find Hostage Slaughterhouses." Yikes.

"The Philadelphia Inquirer." Down at the bottom, if you can, "Specter" -- that would be Arlen Specter -- "GOP Moderates Must Be Heard." I guess that would be both of them. Look, it's a conservative party. And that's just the way it is. My view of things.

"Rocky Mountain News." "Volatile Debate: Grouse vs. Gas." This has to do where a species of grouse, I guess, should be put on the endangered species list. And it hangs out in areas where there's believed to be a lot of natural gas. It's a very good picture on the front page also. "One Son Loses Eye, While the Other Fights On, a Veteran to Lean on."

"San Antonio Express." We'll end it here. "S.A." -- that's San Antonio -- "Native Picked As Attorney General." They localize the story.

By the way, if you're wondering tomorrow, the weather in Chicago, "presto chango."

Presto chango. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, here's the situation we find ourselves in. We're still waiting for word out of either Paris or out of Ramallah on whether or not Yasser Arafat has passed away. We may get that word shortly. We're going to kind of hang around a bit and see what happens.

In the meantime, for most of you, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.

And good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 10, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
With American forces now in the center of Falluja, we're reminded of a pair of words and the gulf that divides them necessary and sufficient.

Earlier today, Ken Pollack, who knows a fair bit about Iraq, put it plainly. Going into Falluja, he said, was absolutely necessary. A number of factors made it so. Elections, he said, would be impossible with insurgents in control of the city, a city of 300,000 people. American forces needed to send a message. Insurgents needed to be routed.

But necessary, he reminds us, is not sufficient. Not to ensure that elections take place, not to find a way to bring the Sunnis back into the political process or to get oil flowing and the lights burning again, not even to make sure that Falluja today won't be Ramadi tomorrow or Samara next year but, without it, nothing else is even possible.

So, everything else it is and hopes to be called the work this week in Falluja a bridging operation, if you will, between necessary and sufficient with a fair distance still to go.

The whip begins with that and our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre, Jamie the headline tonight.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, U.S. commanders caution that there's still some tough fighting to come in Falluja but they say the insurgents are surrounded and will certainly be defeated and they claim to have killed so far more than 500.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

Next to the White House and the president's choice to be the next attorney general of the United States, a man who will make history, a man with a bit of history as well. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King with the watch tonight, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that man is a choice the president calls judge and friend -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. Next to the nagging question of mishaps and mistakes and other irregularities at the polls on Election Day. CNN's Dan Lothian with that, Dan the headline.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Aaron, the election is long over but some people are refusing to let go. In cyberspace the chatter over election fraud is growing louder. We'll take a listen -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dan, thank you.

And finally Ramallah and more and more what looks like the beginning of the end for Yasser Arafat. John Vause is there for us tonight so, John, a headline.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the word from Paris tonight Yasser Arafat is still alive. The word from Ramallah tonight his funeral could happen as soon as Friday -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also on the program tonight, we'll look at the legacy of the attorney general who's been called every name in the book from hero on down. Whatever you think of the man, John Ashcroft's time in office left a mark on the country and on the laws of the land.

Later, the assault on Falluja as seen in still photos, many of them certain to appear on the front pages of newspapers around the country tomorrow morning, which reminds us, newspaper pictures and all, the headlines, the roosters, all the rest, morning papers will wrap it up in the hour, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight in Falluja, a large portion of it, perhaps 70 percent of the city now under American or Iraqi control. Tonight, we can be grateful that for all the scenes of human slaughterhouses and street-to-street fighting the troops have encountered, so far as we know the larger nightmare scenario has not yet come to pass perhaps because many of the rebels and most of the rebel leaders found discretion the better part of valor and left before the shooting began, something we'll take up in a moment.

We begin first with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): If the insurgents had a plan for the defense of Falluja, it quickly crumbled under the weight of U.S. artillery, air power and armor. Street fighting remains intense at times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They can fire from the mosque directly south of us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ones we can see, yes. MCINTYRE: Mosques used by insurgents as command posts have come under heavy attack.

STAFF SGT. SAM MORTIMER, U.S. MARINES: When they're using the mosques to do command and control for insurgents and kill my fellow Marines and fellow soldiers and airmen that are out here, I mean no holds barred, all the gloves are off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where they at? Are they inside? Right now. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) keep in mind that we're right behind the house too.

MCINTYRE: But with most of Falluja resembling a ghost town it's now growing more apparent that along with much of the population many of the insurgents fled in advance of the assault. What's left appears to be a small number of desperate and disorganized remnants.

LT. GEN. JOHN SATTLER, 1ST MARINE EXPEDITIONARY FORCE: That they are not able to communicate, to work out any coordination they are now in small pockets blind moving throughout the city and we will continue to hunt them down and destroy them.

MCINTYRE: According to one Marine commander insurgents have been pushed into a narrow strip along Falluja's main east/west highway. He estimated 70 percent of the city was under control of U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Mop up operations are expected to last another day or two. U.S. casualties are still described as light with enemy dead put at more than 500 and some captured insurgents are said to be giving up valuable information.

Videotape of a flag-raising by soldiers of Iraq's 1st Brigade was replayed at a press briefing near Falluja featuring both a U.S. and Iraqi general. The images of Americans and Iraqis standing shoulder- to-shoulder are considered vital to counter sympathy for the insurgents and their anti-occupation message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And our brothers in arms we're privileged to be fighting next to you and you're doing a great job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Iraqi troops also reported what appeared to be -- finding what appeared to be hostage slaughterhouses, locations where kidnap victims were beheaded. Among the evidence found at the sites video on CDs and black clothing similar to that worn by terrorists on hostage videotapes -- Aaron.

BROWN: Photo opportunities aside is it possible to verify either through embeds or other sources how well the Iraqi forces have actually done and what the Iraqi forces have actually done?

MCINTYRE: Well, there's -- you know obviously there are far more U.S. forces than Iraqi forces and while Iraqi forces have been given a lead role in sensitive sites, cultural sites like mosques, it's clear that the U.S. forces are doing the heavy fighting.

We say today, for instance, once the Jolan (ph) District, which was thought to be an insurgent stronghold was secured, it was at that point it was turned over to some Iraqi forces, again after U.S. Marines had done the heavy lifting.

BROWN: And is there concern there about the implications that all of us can figure out about the implications of so many of what they thought were about 3,000 insurgents having fled?

MCINTYRE: Well, the soldiers and Marines who are doing the fighting didn't seem to be too concerned about it. They seem somewhat relieved that they weren't meeting that resistance and the Pentagon has insisted all along that the goals for this mission were simply to free Falluja and prevent its use as a base of operations. There's a recognition though that they're going to have to continue the hunt for the insurgents and that this is not the last stand.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

Jane Arraf has been embedded with the infantry as they fought their way into Falluja and Jane joins us now on the telephone, Jane, what can you report tonight?

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (by telephone): Aaron, a very interesting look at the industrial part of town with the Army today as they went through what we saw was a picture of an insurgency that has made careful preparations for the arrival of U.S. forces, not just the booby trapped buildings but as was alluded to earlier a plan to communicate between other, openings between building so they could slip from building.

Anti-tank mines laid in piles. We went into one place that looks like a bomb making factory. There was even food left as if someone had left very hurriedly. We have to remember this is the first time that U.S. forces have really been in Falluja, in rebel strongholds, in insurgent strongholds like that since April when they pulled out.

As for that slaughterhouse, the report of a slaughterhouse in the north of the city we're still trying to confirm that that indeed was a place where they killed hostages -- Aaron.

BROWN: How much of the city is being blown apart?

ARRAF: Well, generally it's taking a very heavy bombardment and if you go down these streets in the industrial section, for instance, there's hardly a building that's untouched.

There was one we saw that was hit by a JDAM between a 500 and 2,000-pound bomb where almost everything was destroyed except for a big pink sofa, surreal scenes in that area, hardly any civilians but scenes of real devastation, blown apart though given the weapons they used might not quite fit. Essentially they've been targeting building where they believe insurgents had been, buildings that insurgents might use, so you might have a few untouched houses next to one that's totally destroyed. It's that sort of scene.

BROWN: Just one other question, Jane. This is a city that at its peak there are 250,000, 300,000 people there. How many civilians are you encountering?

ARRAF: Very eerie. In the part that we're in, in the eastern sector, none, zero. Soldiers we're with have not seen a single civilian. This was clearly an area where insurgents had a foothold, where it was an insurgent stronghold where civilians did not go even though it's partly a residential district full of very nice houses. The civilians appear to have left quite a long time ago for the insurgents to do their work and regain the entire area with explosives.

BROWN: Well, Jane, it's good to talk to you. Take care out there and hopefully the people you are with will take care as well, Jane Arraf who is traveling with an Army infantry unit as it makes its way through Falluja.

We're joined now by John Lee Anderson who's been covering Iraq for "The New Yorker" magazine. He's also the author of "The Fall of Baghdad." Mr. Anderson is in Dubai tonight. He comes to us by videophone. We'll do our best to grapple with the two-second delay and the rest. It's good to have you with us. As you hear the reporting out of there...

JOHN LEE ANDERSON, "THE NEW YORKER" (by videophone): Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: ...what's your take on it?

ANDERSON: Well, I'm not surprised by what I'm hearing about the -- as Jane Arraf was just saying about the emptiness of the parts of Falluja she's been in, nor am I surprised to hear that contrary to it being -- although the Marines have met stiff resistance they're not finding as many insurgents as they thought.

I was expecting this from the beginning when this invasion or rather this assault on Falluja was announced weeks in advance and the city itself was only sealed off about four or five days before the actual battle began. I mean insurgents being insurgents it's not their place nor is it wise to stand and fight necessarily.

BROWN: Yes.

ANDERSON: In this case, I think that they probably left a hardcore in town in order to make it bloody to give the appearance and for them symbolically important task of showing that they could do battle even if they ultimately lose in Falluja.

BROWN: The dilemma...

ANDDERSON: You know there are undoubtedly insurgents fanned out throughout Iraq.

BROWN: Yes. The dilemma it seemed to me is that if you don't announce that you're going in, you've got some portion of 300,000 innocent civilians who then become very vulnerable. By announcing you're going in, you at least give them a chance to get out. It's trying to balance the political and the military.

ANDERSON: Well, of course, and that's the pernicious conundrum that the United States forces have found themselves in since the beginning. However, even in allowing civilians to flee a city like this, obviously insurgents don't necessarily have to wear a uniform and usually don't in this case.

I'm not aware of any stringing process that went on while the "civilians" were fleeing the city, just as there was none last April during the uprising in the spring which set this all off really. And to all intents and purposes Falluja has been a war zone ever since.

So, the Fallujan residents, what will -- I guess what will be interesting to see is once this mopping up is completed and the residents of Falluja return and that ostensibly it will be in the hands of Iraqi forces with some back up from Americans to control exactly what the nature of the U.S.-Iraqi relationship in Falluja will be. I think it will be a very important watershed in terms of what happens next.

BROWN: Just help me understand that a little bit more. You will be looking for what in that relationship?

ANDERSON: For a sea change, for an improvement. It has been an abysmal relationship since American forces went in there and the first shooting incidents began at the end of April, 2003. This is very difficult. It's not just a down. Falluja to some extent is symbolic of the entire area and the Sunni population.

If by taking Falluja the leaders of the Sunni community, which extends out from Falluja to other towns Ramadi, Samarra and so on, where we've had so much difficulty, if the hostility and resentment is so great, if the civilian damage has been so great that the leaders of the community are able to effectively carry out a boycott of the upcoming January elections, this siege will merely have created a new set of problems and there is -- there are indications that there are forces at work in that direction.

BROWN: Yes.

ANDERSON: In other words, if there is a Sunni boycott of the election in January, the election itself will become a new and dangerous watershed. It will formalize the emerging communal split in the country, the sectarian split between the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunni and you will have laid the ground seeds for something close to a civil war.

BROWN: John, it's good to talk to you again. We appreciate your time out of Dubai.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, John Lee Anderson who is covering for "The New Yorker" magazine.

The battle -- as the battle for Falluja was playing out halfway around the world the president today began the formal reshuffling of his cabinet. Just a day after Attorney General John Ashcroft announced his resignation, not unexpected, the president named his replacement, White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales.

He's already made a considerable influence on matters in Iraq and particularly the war on terror. If he gets the promotion, and he probably will, he will also be a pioneer.

Several reports over the course of the program tonight beginning at the White House and John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president didn't look long or far in choosing Alberto Gonzales as his nominee to be the new attorney general.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He always gives me his frank opinion. He is a calm and steady voice in times of crisis.

KING: White House counsel the past four years, before that a Texas Supreme Court justice, now in line to be the nation's first Hispanic attorney general.

ALBERTO GONZALES, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: I know well that some government positions require a special level of trust and integrity.

KING: Gonzales is as soft spoken as John Ashcroft is controversial but behind his easygoing style is a fierce loyalty to Mr. Bush and an approach to terrorism and government secrecy issues that Democrats and liberal groups promise will be an issue in confirmation hearings.

RALPH NEAS, PRES., PEOPLE FOR THE AMERICAN WAY: Alberto Gonzales and John Ashcroft have consistently decided that it was OK to abuse civil liberties and to go way to the right in terms of adjusting the terrorism issue.

KING: Gonzales, for example, authored legal memos allowing the administration to deny Geneva Convention protections to some detainees in the war on terror and backs expanded surveillance and other controversial powers in the post-9/11 Patriot Act.

BUSH: His sharp intellect and sound judgment have helped shape our policies in the war on terror.

KING: Ashcroft submitted his resignation a week ago and Mr. Bush quickly settled on Gonzales. Aides say the decision was based on legal skills and trust but concede some also see political gain in nominating a man long part of the president's outreach to Latinos.

BUSH: Embrace Judge Al Gonzales. Thank you, judge, for coming. I appreciate you being with us.

GONZALES: Just give me a chance to prove myself. That is a common prayer for those in my community. Mr. President, thank you for that chance.

KING: Democrats promise tough questions but most predict speedy confirmation for Gonzales. For his part, Mr. Bush did nothing to tamp down speculation on more cabinet turnover, declining to answer directly when asked at an Oval Office event whether Secretary of State Powell is staying on for the new term.

BUSH: I'm proud of my secretary of state. He's done a heck of a good job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And senior officials say the president was being vague for good reason. They say Secretary Powell will stay on but for a short period of time that the White House is as yet unwilling to define.

Also and perhaps related, Aaron, White House officials say they're still unclear or at least they're still unwilling to discuss with us whether National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will get a new cabinet post or head home to California soon -- Aaron.

BROWN: One question on Mr. Gonzales. Do we now assume, he'd always been considered to be on the short list of a possible Supreme Court vacancy, do we now assume that that will not happen should a vacancy occur?

KING: If a vacancy occurs in the short term, you should assume that but many here at the White House say two or three years as attorney general, if the president gets as many think, two or three Supreme Court nominees in the next vacancies in the second term, don't think he won't look to Judge Gonzales down the road a bit.

BROWN: John, thank you, John King at the White House tonight.

Later in the program more on the changing of the guard at the Justice Department. We'll look at legacies, the legacy Mr. Ashcroft leaves behind and what Judge Gonzales might face as a result.

Also ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, Election Day 2004 sorting through the glitches do widespread reports of voter irregularities add up to conspiracy or just Internet chat, a break first?

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: One of the hangovers of the presidential election last week is the belief, unshakable to some especially on the Internet that there was widespread vote fraud. Several cases have surfaced. There could be more. Will they ever reach the level of problems found in the 2000 election?

Some will argue yes. Some already are arguing yes. Others looking closely say for now at least not even close, reporting tonight CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN (voice-over): MIT political science professor Charles Stewart (ph) has been pointing and clicking his way through a cyber onslaught of election conspiracies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I found this thing that's really outrageous. What do you think?

LOTHIAN: From e-mails to blogs screaming grand theft America, some believe massive fraud cost Senator Kerry a critical number of votes. Here's why. Some small Florida counties, like Holmes and Franklin heavily Democrat went overwhelmingly for President Bush.

While some view this with suspicion, experts say the reality is so-called Dixie Democrats have consistently gone Republican for president and voting records back that up.

In Cuyahoga County, Ohio, one city recorded thousands of ballots more than the actual number of registered voters, fraud? Officials say it was a typo, 18,472 should have read 8,472. The mistake never made it into the official count.

And in Carteret County, North Carolina, 4,500 votes were lost when an electronic voting machine prematurely reached capacity. Officials say the votes can't be recovered but they were not enough to impact the presidential race.

All across the south and across the country, a laundry list of problems. Electionline.org has documented many of them.

ED POND, CARTERET COUNTY BOARD OF ELECTIONS: Machines that didn't work well. There were lines that were way too long in way too many places. There were shortages of provisional ballots.

LOTHIAN: The question is do all of these problems or perceived problems add up to a conspiracy or is all of this just normal post election irregularities? That is what electionline.org and professors over at MIT are hoping to find out. While they have no reason to believe they'll locate thousands of missing votes or find widespread fraud, they are conducting studies and audits working to locate any cracks in the system.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To actually get the reports that, in fact, will be generated from this election and figure out ways of auditing, as you say, the actual outcomes that occurred.

LOTHIAN: Even as the loud chatter of conspiracy continues in cyberspace.

(END VIDEOTAPE) LOTHIAN: Six Democratic members of Congress, including Robert Wexler, sent a letter to the General Accountability Office, or GAO, calling on the agency to investigate voting irregularities. They want to learn how widespread or valid complaints from voters really are -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, I think we all would like to know that. I've probably only gotten 2,000 e-mails on this particular one. One of the things that people say is that in those counties where e-machines were used, electronic voting machines were used, tended for one reason or another to favor President Bush, as opposed to counties where paper ballots or punch card ballots or old style voting machines were used. Is there, in fact, any evidence if that is true?

LOTHIAN: There's no widespread evidence of that. There's sort of anecdotal evidence. There were some places in Florida, for instance, where people complained that they went up, touched the screens, tried to vote for Senator Kerry and instead all of their votes were switched to Republicans. Those behind the machines, the companies that put out those machines said that those were sort of isolated incidents not widespread -- Aaron.

BROWN: I suppose one person's isolated incident is another person's widespread. Dan, thank you very much, Dan Lothian in Boston tonight.

A quick look now at some of the other stories that made news tonight. A major in the U.S. Marines who ran a detention camp in the southern part of Iraq was found guilty today of mistreating a prisoner and dereliction of duty, a lesser charge.

Last year Major Clark Pollice (ph) ordered another soldier to drag an Iraqi prisoner from a holding cell by his neck. The prisoner later died. Major Pollice could face possible dismissal and time in the stockade, no sentencing yet.

The Department of Homeland Security has lowered the threat level at five financial institutions on the East Coast from orange to yellow, the companies in New York City, New Jersey and in Washington, D.C. They were put on heightened alert three months ago after a computer disk with detailed photos of the companies was found in Pakistan and linked to terrorists.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, as Attorney General of the U.S. John Ashcroft was in many, many ways a lightning rod, how the man on track to replace him compares.

Also ahead a window into the battle of Falluja, still photos from the midst of the fighting.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back now to politics and justice and the office where they intersect. The position of U.S. attorney general is a political appointment. And, as such, part of the job is to carry out the wishes of the president.

For John Ashcroft, that meant executing the war on terror and, by they extension, the Patriot Act. If approved by the Senate, Alberto Gonzales will inherit those duties, familiar territory for the White House counsel, but also complicated and potentially messy.

We begin this segment with CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alberto Gonzales may learn first-hand what John Ashcroft meant when he said the attorney general's job was both awarding and depleting. He is stepping into a role which by all accounts demands every bit of energy a person can muster. Supporters say he's up to the challenge.

BRAD BERENSON, FORMER ASSOCIATE WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: He's extremely well-qualified for this position by experience and by temperament.

ARENA: If confirmed, Gonzales will be the administration's point man on getting portions of the Patriot Act renewed and pushing through judicial nominees. He will also oversee some politically-charged investigations already under way.

There's the Halliburton probe and the investigation into who leaked the name of a covert CIA operative. And, of course, there are a series of legal challenges that may drastically alter the administration's detention of enemy combatants.

Unlike John Ashcroft, Gonzales is clearly a close Bush confidante. Some suggest that could jeopardize his independence.

JEFF FOGEL, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: It's not simply being a pawn. It's being a lawyer who can misuse the application of the law to assist the White House.

ARENA: While the attorney general often takes the hit for how the Bush administration is running the war on terror, Ashcroft was not part of the president's inner circle and at times disagreed with him. Still, his boss says he served with excellence.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The nation is safer and more just today because John Ashcroft has served our country so well.

ARENA: The September 11 attacks clearly defined the Justice Department's mission under Ashcroft. He was charged with redefining its focus from reacting to preventing terrorist attacks.

Terror prosecutions were hailed as successes toward that goal by some and the worst example of overzealous government by others. The Patriot Act, which was crafted to bring down the wall between intelligence and criminal divisions, was criticized for going too far in diminishing civil liberties. PETER RUBIN, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: I think that he has taken extreme positions that were never taken by the United States before in some areas, including civil liberties. And I think that, in the name of the war on terror, he's taken actions that I don't think have been particularly successful.

ARENA: But even his critics say Ashcroft showed conviction. And like it or not, there was never any doubt on where he stood on an issue.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: To those that scare peace- loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this. Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national immunity and diminish our resolve.

ARENA (on camera): Plagued by health problems this past year, Ashcroft told the president, the Justice Department would be well- served by new leadership and fresh inspiration. He says he'll direct his energies toward -- quote -- "other challenging horizons."

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I'm joined tonight from San Diego by Randall Hamud, a civil rights attorney who represented several people detained after 9/11, people held as material witnesses by the Justice Department, and in Washington, Tom Fitton, the president of the watchdog group Judicial Watch. And we're pleased to have you both.

Tom, there are lots of ways you could look at General Ashcroft. I think his critics would say he was a grandstander at times, that he oversold cases, so-called terrorist cases, only to lose them in court. As you look at his record in brief, how good to you think he was?

TOM FITTON, PRESIDENT, JUDICIAL WATCH: Oh, I think he was good enough, especially given the post-9/11 circumstances that he had to deal with. He was charged with enforcing the Patriot Act, which was a reasonable extension of law enforcement tools to terrorism that were available to federal law enforcement, often, in many cases, related to the mafia or just going after white-collar criminals.

And I think he was unfairly tarred as going after civil liberties when he was just using common law enforcement tools, or law enforcement tools that would have been commonly used in other law enforcement areas that folks wanted used against terrorism. Remember, he was enforcing a law passed by the overwhelming majority of congressmen and senators and signed into law by the president. And he went to town. And a lot of people criticize him for it.

But some might suggest that some of the arrests he ordered and the detainees, in terms of the immigration charges, may have prevented further terrorist acts, certainly in the days immediately after 9/11.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: They may have and they may not. That's a very -- I don't want to spend a lot of time on this part.

FITTON: Sure.

BROWN: But that's a very speculative argument to say they may have, because we don't know that they have.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: What we know is -- I understand that. What we know is that they went to court in some of the cases and they collapsed in court. That is what we know.

(CROSSTALK)

FITTON: And many other cases, Aaron, where you had terrorists plead guilty and cells were disrupted and financing was disrupted.

BROWN: Absolutely.

FITTON: And financing was disrupted.

BROWN: Absolutely.

FITTON: And it was that aggressive tack that he deserves credit for. And arresting people on immigration charges, you can't complain about. These folks were here illegally. To send them out was probably a prudent thing to do, especially after 9/11.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Tom, I'm not arguing that.

Randall, briefly as you can, you're going to take a pretty contrary view of what the record is on General Ashcroft.

RANDALL HAMUD, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Absolutely.

I think he was a right-wing zealot. I think he used the office of attorney general to further a right-wing agenda. Remember, besides the Patriot Act, he attempted to interfere with the right-to-die law in the state of Oregon. He attempted to gather abortion records of female patients in New York hospitals. He attacked medical marijuana. He attacked Greenpeace.

And with respect to his enforcement with the Patriot Act, he did not catch any terrorist ever proved to have been part of the 9/11 conspiracy or part of al Qaeda or having perpetrated any terrorist acts here in the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

(CROSSTALK)

HAMUD: It was very terrible record of his.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: OK.

I think it's a mixed record. I think if you look, for example, at the Lackawanna case up in Buffalo, you would have to say that those guys, whether they were planning to do something or not, had certainly put themselves in a circumstance where you could argue they were not operating in the interests of the United States.

HAMUD: They weren't operating contrary to the United States because they were planning nothing in the United States. The allegation is, they were trying to get to Afghanistan.

And look at the Detroit case, where, basically, the Justice Department, under John Ashcroft's watch, cooked the books, withheld exculpatory evidence from the defense, and has caused the judge to order a new trial and to chastise the Justice Department for, basically, persecuting, instead of prosecuting, according to the constitutional protections.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And, Tom, I think there's -- the Detroit -- there are two cases, I think, that stand out for the critics. One is the Detroit case, which has clearly collapsed on the government. And the other case is the Brandon Mayfield case out in Portland, which clearly should never have been brought.

FITTON: Well, when you're prosecuting all of the cases that the Justice Department was charged with prosecuting after 9/11, in an abundance of caution, you're going to have local offices run into problems like this at the U.S. attorney level.

To blame John Ashcroft for the collapse of the Detroit case, which has not ended yet, by the way, I think is a stretch. And, you know, when you talk about civil liberties, you have got to place everything in context. In the previous administration, we had Waco under Janet Reno. We had the Elian Gonzalez siege down in Miami. There was nothing comparable with John Ashcroft.

John Ashcroft was charged with enforcing the law to try to protect Americans from terrorism after 9/11. Was it enforced perfectly? Of course not. Any administrator of a large organization such as the Justice Department is going to be subject to criticism. Was his heart in the right place? Yes. Was the Patriot Act a commonsensical law? I think a lot of people, when they look carefully at it, would agree and would agree with John Ashcroft that a lot of the criticism of the Patriot Act is overstated.

BROWN: That -- I'm going to leave it there, but that's a point, I think -- and we'll invite you back to do so. We'll come back and talk about, because there are critics really on both the right and the left of the Patriot Act.

FITTON: Sure. BROWN: And we ought to look at that. It's good to talk to you both. And we'll talk again soon. Thanks.

Still to come on the program, what next in the Middle East after Yasser Arafat, as is widely predicted, passes away?

And later, of course, morning papers.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As murky as the reports on Yasser Arafat's condition have been this week, last week or the week before, today, it became clear whatever his affliction turns out to be, it's almost certainly killing him. Even close aides now admit as much.

And, as they do, they and others in and out of the Palestinian community have begun trying to impose some order on the end of a notably chaotic life.

And so from Ramallah tonight, here's CNN's John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When a senior Islamic cleric arrived at Yasser Arafat's hospital many thought this would finally be it. They were wrong.

SHEIK TAISSER BAYOUD TAMIMI, SENIOR ISLAMIC CLERIC (through translator): He's alive and well. He's alive and well. Yes, he's sick and his situation is very critical but he's alive.

VAUSE: But a life support machine is all that is keeping Arafat alive and soon that will not be enough.

NABIL SHA'ATH, PALESTINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: His liver is malfunctioning. His kidneys are malfunctioning. He has brain hemorrhage. And so there's many weakening factors. Life support can not really deal with all of these factors.

VAUSE: It could be hours doctors say, unlikely to be days. But given Arafat's religious beliefs, no one is willing to intervene.

SHEIK IKRIMA SABRI, SENIOR ISLAMIC CLERIC (through translator): In Islam the machines cannot be disconnected.

VAUSE: A few thousand marched in Bethlehem to show their support, and a few hundred gathered in Ramallah. Most Palestinians it seems believe their leader is already gone. The weeks of conflicting reports have left them accepting the inevitable; 10,000 posters of Arafat have already been printed. And many, like Hussein Al-Julani, a store owner in Ramallah, are just waiting for the official announcement.

HUSSEIN AL-JULANI, STORE OWNER (through translator): Even if he doesn't die to be claiming to be dead means that now is the time to prepare for the funeral.

VAUSE: And after days of negotiations with the Israelis, Palestinian officials have decided Arafat's body will be flown to Egypt. Funeral services could be held at Cairo Airport.

MAGID ABDUL FATAH, SPOKESMAN FOR EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): It is something limited and in an official framework.

VAUSE: Then a final helicopter flight back to Arafat's compound. The rubble and debris which marked the battles with Israeli troops, the crushed cars which were piled high, symbols of defiance which Arafat refused to remove now being cleared away making room for a mausoleum.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Palestinian officials insist Ramallah will not be Arafat's final resting place. When there's a lasting peace with Israel and a Palestinian state, his body, they say, will be buried in their capital, East Jerusalem. Until then, this will be a mark of defiance, the Palestinian leader remaining in his West Bank compound until his dream of statehood comes true.

And, Aaron, just a short time ago, a flurry of activity outside the Paris hospital where Yasser Arafat is being treated, journalists assembling, television lights being turned on, also, right here at Arafat's compound, some people gathering. This could be the announcement we've been waiting for -- Aaron.

BROWN: Yes, we're in one of those sort of odd positions where it does appear that a joint announcement is going to be made from Paris and from Ramallah. And while we can speculate as to what it is, and viewers can, too, we don't know. So we'll let you go try and figure out what's going on and we'll come back to you as we can, OK?

Thank you, John -- John Vause.

Again, as John said, reporters have been called to the hospital in Paris. There's a similar call being made in Ramallah. There is some sense that a major announcement is in the works on Mr. Arafat. And we'll just have to see.

We'll take a break first.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, the battle for Falluja from the ground, still photos of the war in the street. Morning papers coming up, too.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we pick things up here where we began the program, the battle of Falluja.

To the forces on the ground, the only thing necessary of course is to stay alive. And, in truth, that goes for reporters embedded with the troops. Last night, you heard a journalist for "The L.A. Times" how happy he was to be alive. Tonight, Scott Peterson of "The Christian Science Monitor" describes his experiences. He's been with the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine since the assault began days ago.

We talked with him earlier today, the fighting going strong.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCOTT PETERSON, "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": The units that I've been operating with are in the northeast of the city. Just about every unit I think that is involved in Falluja at the moment is getting sniped at. They're getting shot at regularly.

The Marine and Army casualties have not been very high. In fact, they've been incredibly low. But that doesn't mean that there's not an awful lot of lead flying around. And it seems to heat up as the day goes by.

We heard well in advance of this offensive beginning that insurgents had been leaving, had been going to other places. But, certainly, there really were and are plenty of insurgents here. It's just a question of finding them.

The ones that I've been operating with, they are tired. But they're also, when they're active, they are also very much pumped on adrenaline. Today, when we were clearing houses, it was extraordinary to see the amount of energy that was put into the scout teams that I was with. They really were revved up. They were using explosives to blow down doors. They were jumping from roof to roof to get to different buildings that they couldn't get in, in the front door. They were crossing all sorts of just breach ladders they used. It was quite extraordinary.

They know this is the real thing. This is combat. And they have an adversary out there that has taken a very bloody toll up to this point. Until today, I saw more dead insurgents than I actually saw live civilians, because everybody has left the city.

The pictures that I have of civilians, in most cases, they are men. They've been left behind in order to protect their houses or homes from looting. They're actually found when Marines go into their home and find them, revved up, charging through, not sure what to expect. And they find people who are sitting there with their arms up and hoping that no one's going to pull the trigger.

In terms of control, I think that that really is a relative idea and one that really doesn't apply to Falluja. The real proof of what has or has not been achieved here is going to be seen and played out in the coming weeks. And I don't think anyone is predicting an early departure for Marines.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The work of Scott Peterson, who is working these days for "The Christian Science Monitor." Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to do morning papers. I've been on an airplane today. I have no voice left. What is it about airplanes that does that? I don't know.

"Stars and Stripes" starts it off. "U.S. Troops Control Most of Falluja," the headline. "U.S. Officials Believe Most Insurgents Have Fled the City." Look at this picture here, if you can. "Troops' Bravery Honored in Iraq." These are all Purple Heart winners. Some day, one of them will run for president and someone will say they didn't earn the Purple Heart. Welcome to America.

"International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." I suspect -- just suspect this headline will change by tomorrow, based on the reporting we're getting out of Paris. "U.S. Troops Cornering Insurgents in Falluja."

"The Washington Times," there was some -- oh. "Bush Names Gonzales Attorney General." That's their lead. They like that story. "Iraqis Find Hostage Slaughterhouses." Yikes.

"The Philadelphia Inquirer." Down at the bottom, if you can, "Specter" -- that would be Arlen Specter -- "GOP Moderates Must Be Heard." I guess that would be both of them. Look, it's a conservative party. And that's just the way it is. My view of things.

"Rocky Mountain News." "Volatile Debate: Grouse vs. Gas." This has to do where a species of grouse, I guess, should be put on the endangered species list. And it hangs out in areas where there's believed to be a lot of natural gas. It's a very good picture on the front page also. "One Son Loses Eye, While the Other Fights On, a Veteran to Lean on."

"San Antonio Express." We'll end it here. "S.A." -- that's San Antonio -- "Native Picked As Attorney General." They localize the story.

By the way, if you're wondering tomorrow, the weather in Chicago, "presto chango."

Presto chango. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, here's the situation we find ourselves in. We're still waiting for word out of either Paris or out of Ramallah on whether or not Yasser Arafat has passed away. We may get that word shortly. We're going to kind of hang around a bit and see what happens.

In the meantime, for most of you, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.

And good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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