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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Bush Chooses White House Counsel To Replace Ashcroft; US, Iraqi Forces Regaining Control Of Falluja; Interview with John Thune

Aired November 10, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, President Bush has chosen a top adviser and close friend to be attorney general, White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is a calm and steady voice in times of crisis.

DOBBS: The fight for Falluja. Our troops now control 70 percent of the city. The military says remaining anti-Iraqi forces are trapped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will continue to hunt them down and destroy them.

DOBBS: President Bush wants millions of illegal aliens to have legal status in this country. In our face-off tonight, we debate the massive invasion of illegal aliens and what should be done about it.

And tonight, my guests are "Vanity Fair" columnist Hitchens and Senator-elect John Thune.

Hitchens is becoming a little irritable about some of the silly post-election analysis, and so am I.

John Thune is eager to move the Bush agenda forward. I'll be talking with the senator-elect, and we'll have a special report on the Bush agenda.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, November 10. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush has chosen White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, to replace John Ashcroft as attorney general. Gonzales is the most prominent Hispanic in the Bush White House and a long-time friend of the president.

President Bush declared Gonzales has upheld the highest ethics during his service in government.

Senior White House correspondent John King reports -- John. JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, the president moving in less than 24 hours after the White House announced the resignation of Attorney General John Ashcroft to name his nominee to replace Ashcroft at the Justice Department. As you noted, it is the White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, a man who has been a close confidant and political and legal adviser to this president for the past 10 years.

Mr. Bush making the announcement this afternoon in the Roosevelt Room here at the White House, saying that as he searched for a replacement he could find no one more qualified to take the place of Attorney General Ashcroft.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: His sharp intellect and sound judgment have helped shape our policies on the war on terror, policies designed to protect the security of all Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Ashcroft -- Ashcroft these past four years has been the White House counsel. Prior to that, he was the president's counsel when he was the governor of Texas, also a Texas Supreme Court justice, a man with very fierce loyalty to this president, a soft-spoken style, a man now in line to be the nation's first Hispanic attorney general.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERTO GONZALES, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: As a former judge, I know well that some government positions require a special level of trust and integrity. The American people expect and deserve a Department of Justice guided by a rule of law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Soft-spoken and a behind the scenes player these past four years, but make no mistake, Gonzales a key architect of the administration's legal strategy that is at times quite controversial.

He wrote, for an example, a memo saying the administration had the right to deny Geneva Convention protections to some detainees in the war on terror. That will be a subject of his confirmation hearings.

He also defended the vice president's position that some records of that energy task force should be able to be kept in private. Judge Gonzales has strong views on government secrecy.

He also, of course, backs the Patriot Act, the broader surveillance and other anti-terrorism powers that many say critics say Attorney General Ashcroft abused.

And Lou, the White House is expecting speedy confirmation. They believe, though, this will be the first confirmation battle of the second Bush term. They expect some tough questions from the Democrats on Capitol Hill, but they also expect that Judge Gonzales will be conformed and confirmed quite easily and quite quickly -- Lou.

DOBBS: And John, with the loss of Alberto Gonzales from the White House and the resignation of Don Evans as commerce secretary, the president is, in point of fact, losing two of his closest advisers. But perhaps more importantly, two men with whom he is closest in this administration.

KING: Two of the Texans who came to Washington with him, although Judge Gonzales, we assume, will be moving just a few blocks away in the Justice Department and leaving the White House.

One question is who will be elevated here to take the position of White House counsel. A couple of internal candidates expected to get scrutiny there.

But the White House does say, yes, some of the president's long- time advisers moving on, although still a very solid core, if you will, of the Texans who came to Washington with President Bush.

One other quick point. The president today did nothing to tamp down that there could be more turnover. He was asked if Secretary of State Powell would be staying on the second term, for a second term. All he said was the secretary has done a great job. He would not answer that question definitively -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, John King, our senior White House correspondent.

Well, as John just reported, the Senate is expected to move quickly to confirm Gonzales as attorney general. But Gonzales is likely to face tough questions from lawmakers on the appropriate balance between preserving civil liberties and fighting the war on terrorists.

Congressional correspondent Ed Henry reports -- Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

That's right. Senate Democrats are vowing that they will put a lot of scrutiny on Judge Gonzales' tenure as White House counsel. Specifically, as John King mentioned, the memos he wrote about the Geneva Convention and how it applied specifically to prisoners at Abu Ghraib and also at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

That's something that Democrats are vowing to offer a lot of heat and make sure that they scrutinize Judge Gonzales closely. But Democrats are privately admitting it will be very difficult for them to block this nomination.

First of all, Democrats coming out of this election want to pick their fights very carefully. They know there may be some even more high-profile nominations coming down, possibly even some Supreme Court nomination fights. And they do not want to use all their -- all of their might, all of their power just yet.

And also, Democrats quite candidly are admitting privately they're not about to block the first Hispanic attorney general from taking office, especially right after an election where President Bush did quite well with Hispanic voters, better than Democrats and even Republicans expected.

And interestingly, some of the biggest shots being fired at Judge Gonzales right now are coming from conservatives. I spoke earlier to conservative activist Richard Viguerie.

And he said that while he thinks Judge Gonzales will make a fine attorney general, he and other conservatives are concerned that President Bush now may be grooming Judge Gonzales to one day become a Supreme Court nominee. Richard Viguerie says that would be a problem, because he compares Judge Gonzales to a nominee in the first Bush administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD VIGUERIE, CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST: He has never identified himself, or even privately that conservatives are aware of, with the president's social agenda, political agenda. And he's basically a blank slate.

And President Bush's father, when he was president, sent up an attorney who was a blank slate to be on the Supreme Court, and his name is David Souter. And so conservatives having a saying among themselves, do you know how to say David Souter in Spanish? And it's Alberto Gonzales.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: But I spoke to Republican Senator John Cornyn. He's a key conservative on the judiciary committee, which will be charged with confirming Judge Gonzales to the attorney general position.

And Senator Cornyn said that conservatives are missing the point here. He thinks that Judge Gonzales will be a fine attorney general.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Judge Gonzales is the kind of guy that is extremely professional. He doesn't throw curve balls, and I think he'll withstand the confirmation process very well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And in fact, Lou, this is one thing that Republicans and Democrats, perhaps, can agree on right after this election. As John King mentioned, it's looking very much like Judge Gonzales can get through quickly and relatively easy. There will be tough questions, but it's very likely he will be confirmed -- Lou.

DOBBS: And with Richard Viguerie, a prominent conservative activist, is all but endorsing him for attorney general, but worrying over whether or not he would be on the Supreme Court, that looks like he's almost looking for something to criticize. HENRY: Absolutely. But there is concern, I can tell you, from conservatives. They feel that he is a blank slate. They feel that if Judge Gonzales is attorney general, he will be somebody that the president -- he will just be following the president's policies, mostly. But that if he were on the high court, that would be a whole other matter and there might be a big fight over that, Lou.

DOBBS: OK. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Turning now to events in Iraq and the battle for Falluja, military commanders today said our troops have found houses in Falluja where radical Islamist terrorists have murdered hostages. They refer to them as hostage slaughterhouses.

Our troops now control 70 percent of Falluja. The top Marine Corps general in Iraq said our troops will hunt down the remaining enemy and destroy them.

CNN Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If the insurgents had a plan for the defense of Falluja, it quickly crumbled under the weight of U.S. artillery, air power and armor.

Street fighting remains intense at times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taken fire from the mosque directly sought.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ones we can see.

MCINTYRE: Mosques, used by insurgents as command posts, have come under heavy attack.

But with most of Falluja resembling a ghost town, it's now growing more apparent that, along with much of the population, many of the insurgents fled in advance of the assault. What's left appears to be a small number of desperate and disorganized remnants.

LT. GEN. JOHN SATTLER, U.S. MARINE CORPS: They are not able to communicate to work on any coordination. They are now in small pockets blind moving throughout the city, and we will continue to hunt them down and destroy them.

MCINTYRE: According to one Marine commander, insurgents have been pushed into a narrow strip along Falluja's main east/west highway. He estimated 70 percent of the city was under control of U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Mop up operations are expected to last another day or two. U.S. casualties are still described as light with enemy dead put at more than 70. And some captured insurgents are said to be giving valuable information.

Videotape of a flag raising by soldiers of Iraq's 1st Brigade was replayed at a press briefing near Falluja, featuring both a U.S. and Iraqi general.

MCINTYRE: The images of Americans and Iraqis standing shoulder to shoulder are considered vital to counter sympathy for the insurgents and their anti-occupation message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and our brothers in arms. We're privileged to be fighting next to you, and you're doing a great job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Iraqi troops also reported finding what appeared to be hostage slaughter houses where kidnap victims had been beheaded. Among the evidence found, their CDs and black clothing similar to that worn by terrorists in hostage videotapes -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, I understand the Pentagon's reluctance to get involved in body count. But when talking about 70 anti-Iraqi forces dead after being engaged by an estimated 12,000 Iraqi and American troops, those are rather startling numbers, are they not?

MCINTYRE: Well, I think you're going to see that number grow. That's the last number provided by the U.S. military. We have some indications that the number of enemy dead could be in the several hundreds. But it still looks like the 2,000 to 3,000 insurgents that were thought to be there -- many of them may have left.

DOBBS: And do we have an estimate as to how many, what percentage, what number?

MCINTYRE: No, we don't.

DOBBS: OK. Jamie, thank you very much.

Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Joining me now, our CNN Military Analyst General David Grange.

General, good to talk with you. Yesterday, last night, we were talking about the importance of that cordon, as you described it, surrounding the city to make certain that there was no escape from Falluja for the anti-Iraqi forces. It looks like that is precisely what's occurred here. What's your reaction?

GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, you know, when you move about 8,000 or so American and Iraqi forces up to an area to attack positions, the word gets out, and, you know, you could argue, well, maybe a cordon should have been set earlier, maybe a month ago. Who knows?

I'm sure a lot of them slipped out, and now they'll have to be hunted down at another place at another time. But it's pretty hard to hide a movement of that many people, and those -- obviously, the enemy likes to fight in two-, three-man groups. They don't want to stay and fight in hundreds or 30 or 50 or so, and so a lot of them probably left. DOBBS: A lot of them probably left, as you put it, but, at the same time -- and I take entirely your point about the difficulty of moving what would be a division-level force into position around Falluja. At the same time, it would be rather difficult, would it not, to move 2,000 or 3,000 anti-Iraqi forces out of the city as well?

GRANGE: Well, it would be. I have a feeling, Lou, that what happened here is that people moved out over the last month. In other words, it wasn't a one-night movement. They moved a couple in a car here and there. And who knows if it's 2,000 to 3,000?

I mean, there may be at one time that many in the city. It could be it's only 500 in the city at one time, and they're elsewhere in the country. So it's very hard to put your finger on it, and, again, a lot of them blended in with the population.

DOBBS: And, General, what do you expect to be the next step? The Marine general there saying that the -- they thought that there would be a cleanup that would take one to two days.

Jamie McIntyre just reported at least at current levels about 70 insurgents killed, others captured, but not many. Do those numbers strike you as remarkably low given the scale of the assault that we were led to believe this would be?

GRANGE: They do seem low, Lou. I think at the end here, at the -- when they mop up the rest of the city, they're going to find a bunch more. A lot of them have crawled away as they continue to move to the places that the coalition forces are not. They'll find more bodies, and a count will be higher. But I don't think you're going to see vast numbers.

DOBBS: OK. Well, we thank you very much as always.

General David Grange.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead, is United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan obstructing justice? Top U.S. senators say the United Nations is refusing to answer their questions about the multibillion-dollar oil-for-food scandal. We'll have that special report from the United Nations next.

And the presidential candidates all but ignored immigration as an issue during this election. But now this critical issue is apparently a top priority for President Bush. We'll have a special report coming right up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan is under fire, once again, in the multibillion-dollar oil-for-food scandal. Two U.S. senators investigating the scandal have sent Annan a sharply-worded letter and they accuse him of obstructing their work.

Richard Roth reports from the U.N.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): For months, several congressional committees have accused the United Nations of blocking their own oil-for-food investigations.

Now two U.S. senators have stepped up the pressure, sending a letter to U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan charging him with preventing access to U.N. officials and documents related to the $64 billion humanitarian program.

It's noteworthy that one of the senators is Carl Levin of Michigan, a Democrat and longtime supporter of the United States. Levin and Republican Senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota believe Annan and the U.N. own oil-for-food panel are stonewalling congressional investigators.

SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: I'm angry that we find the U.N. proactively interfering with our investigation by telling certain folks not to cooperate with us. So we're not very pleased with the U.N. response to date.

ROTH: This is not the first letter. A torrent of mail this year from Washington lawmakers requesting documents has been rebuffed. The U.N. held firm that it can't turn over internal U.N. oil-for-food files.

FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: We would like those who are asking for these documents to have a clear understanding of why we take the position that we do. It's not to inhibit.

ROTH: Annan has said he wants all information handled by the U.N. authorized oil-for-food panel run by former Fed Chairman Paul Voelker.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: Because you don't want to have the documents flying all over the place. and we've made our position very clear.

COLEMAN: The facts are that the U.N. is proactively -- proactively -- interfering with our ability to get information we need. That's not good for the United Nations. That's not good for the global community.

ROTH: Paul Voelker was at the U.N. Tuesday for a one-on-one meeting with Kofi Annan. The U.N. is reviewing its position, but doesn't expect to start sharing with Congress. That will, no doubt, draw even more heat on the beleaguered organization.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: The U.N. and Paul Voelker's office will talk tomorrow about slight adjustments perhaps and information sharing with the Congress. Senator Coleman says at hearings next week on Capitol Hill, he'll will reveal new information which will show the oil-for-food program had even more corruption than earlier reported -- Lou.

DOBBS: It was rather interesting, Richard, the rather condescending tone taken by the United Nations spokesman when addressing two of the most respected U.S. senators in Washington, D.C. Is there a failure to understand that this Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, are very serious about this issue?

ROTH: I think they understand here the issue is very serious. They're getting warnings and feelings coming from their colleagues in Washington that, especially post-election, the U.N. is not exactly in the catbird seat here, especially after Kofi Annan called the Iraq war illegal and last week sent a letter to the president saying beware of going into Falluja militarily.

They know this, but officials here are saying let's let Voelker do his job, back off from trying to cross-examine his witnesses and, in effect, "There are too many cooks," and the problem, Lou, is also that the U.N. deals with these governments.

Now if the Bush administration wanted to come out and start swinging, it might be different. But they don't just jump when the Duma in Russia or anywhere...

DOBBS: Well, I wouldn't, Richard, go too far comparing the Duma to the United States Senate.

ROTH: No, but that's how the U.N. is set up.

DOBBS: I understand that, and that's precisely the issue.

Richard Roth.

Thank you very much. Hopefully, we'll see greater cooperation from the United Nations.

Richard Roth.

Thank you very much.

Still ahead here tonight, the Bush agenda. President Bush is already promising his second term will bring a legal status for millions of illegal aliens in this country. Our special report is next.

And two experts will face off tonight on reform of our immigration policies.

And then, a power shift in the U.S. Senate. The first man to unseat a Senate party leader in more than a half-century. Senator- elect John Thune of South Dakota joins me.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

This week, our special reports on the president's agenda for his second term tonight focusing on immigration. The immigration crisis in this country has been all but ignored by both President Bush and Senator Kerry during the campaign.

Now, a week after the election, the president is pushing for millions of illegal aliens to be granted legal status in this country.

Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush quickly signaled that immigration reform will be a second-term priority by sending Secretary of State Colin Powell to Mexico this week.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States is proud to be a nation of immigrants. But too many of those immigrants living and working in our country today have no legal status.

WIAN: The White House's first goal, convincing Congress to pass the president's nearly year-old temporary worker proposal. Even though a half-dozen similar plans exist in Congress, none have advanced.

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: The guest worker program is one of the keys to ending illegal immigration. Have a pathway and a control system and a funding source. At the same time, unless we have prosecution for the people who break our laws repeatedly, we'll have no success, and, certainly, the Congress isn't going to provide a guest worker programs.

WIAN: One of the backers of Arizona's ballot initiative preventing illegal aliens from voting and collecting state welfare says he believes the White House will try to find a middle ground.

RANDY FULLER, YES ON PROP. 200: I think the president is -- has been modifying his position on this over the past six or nine months, and he definitely opposes the McCain-Kolbe-Flake bill that's been introduced in Congress.

He says it's just purely an amnesty bill, and he will not do amnesty. They're going to double the number of border patrolmen we have here, and I think some other things are coming.

WIAN: Meanwhile, Mexican President Vicente Fox has other things in mind, including a less restrictive border to facilitate trade.

VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: Our benchmark could be the situation between Canada and the United States. That border is secure, that border is fluid, and that border has the most modern technological devices to operate it with efficiency.

WIAN: What Fox fails to mention is that the U.S.-Canadian border separates two nations with similar poverty rates, while, in Mexico, more than half the population lives on less than $2 a day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Seemingly absent from the discussions are demands the U.S. could make of Mexico specifically to improve its own economy and provide jobs for its own people, instead of encouraging them to head north -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.

Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.

That brings us to our poll question tonight. Do you believe President Bush should listen to Mexican President Fox's request for an even less restrictive border to facilitate trade and migration? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results coming up later.

Up next, much more on the president's bold plan to legalize millions of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have two opposing views on immigration policy reform. They face off here tonight.

And the Bush agenda for the next four years. South Dakota's Senator-elect John Thune is my guest, and I'll be joined by "Vanity Fair" columnist Christopher Hitchens.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be joined by two experts with very differing views on how to reform immigration policy in this country. But, first, taking a look at some of the top stories.

In the double murder trial of Scott Peterson, the second juror in as many days has been dismissed. This time, the jury foreman lost his job. Juror number five began the trial as an alternate, replacing the first juror number five in June. No reason given for his dismissal.

The jury must now begin deliberations for a third time in a week. I'll be joined by CNN Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin to explain to us what's happening in this trial.

And a new study says taking Vitamin E to ward off heart disease may do more harm than good. Researchers say that people who took high dosages of Vitamin E were, in fact, more likely to die earlier than those who did not.

And the Federal Reserve today, as expected, raised interest rates a quarter of a percentage point to 2 percent, the fourth increase in interest rates by the Fed this year.

President Bush is moving aggressively to advance his immigration agenda just a week after winning reelection. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Homeland Defense Tom Ridge traveled to Mexico this week. Secretary Powell said the president's plan to give legal status to millions of illegal aliens is "a high priority."

Joining me now to face off on the immigration crisis and proposed reforms, from Washington, Frank Sharry -- he is executive director of the National Immigration Forum, and he supports the president's proposal to grant legal status to millions of illegal aliens. And Roy Beck. He's executive director of NUMBERSUSA and he opposes the president's plan.

Good to have you here, gentlemen. Let me begin, first, with you, Roy. What's wrong with the president's proposal?

ROY BECK, EXEC. DIR., NUMBERSUSA: The biggest problem is that he is bringing this out before his White House has the prerequisites in place. The president has set two major principles. Number one, that all guest workers and illegal aliens who are given guest worker statuses will go home at the end of their visa. Secondly, he has said that this program cannot hurt American workers. In neither case are the programs in place that would ensure that these principles would be held. In fact the White House is working against Speaker Hastert who has been trying to put in the 9/11 security bill, some of the key provisions that are needed before you could even consider a guest worker program.

DOBBS: Frank, your thoughts?

FRANK SHARRY, EXEC. DIR., NATL. IMMIGRATION FORUM: Look, for too long, we have had a dialogue of the deaf on this issue. It is not a matter of if we enforce our laws or if we change our laws. We can't enforce our laws unless we change our laws. We have a 21st century labor market with Mexico and Central America but we don't have legal channels for people. If 10 million undocumented immigrants who are working hard and paying taxes, living in the shadows. The idea is to bring these people under the rule of law in a regulatory regime that works, that protects workers, that protects communities, that protects our borders. We have to do both things simultaneously for it to work. And that's how we'll achieve being a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. That's what the president's plan is directed at. It is not perfect. But it is an excellent start. If he works on a bipartisan basis, we can finally fix our broken system.

DOBBS: Do you expect that to happen, Roy?

BECK: No, because we have no need for a mass guest worker program. We have 14 million Americans who cannot find full-time work right now. We also have a situation in which we have millions of Americans who are working full-time who are near or below poverty level. The president's plan is primarily for guest workers who are lower skilled workers. We don't have a shortage of lower skilled workers. If we did, then lower skilled workers would see their wages rising. They wouldn't have this health insurance problem. There's no need for it. It is inexplicable why the president feels there is such urgency to legalize millions of lower skilled illegal aliens and bring in more foreign workers.

DOBBS: Well, perhaps that sense of urgency is created at least in terms of the most recent report by "TIME" magazine, a cover story in point of fact, Frank. 3 million illegal aliens entering the country this year. What in the world are we to do?

SHARRY: That number is exaggerated but there is a...

DOBBS: Wait a minute, Frank. Tell me by how much then if you are so sure.

SHARRY: Well, 350,000 undocumented immigrants stay here after my grading. It's about twice that number that come in. The problem is the same. "TIME" is right in this respect that it is unconscionable for this country to not know who is in this country and who is coming in a post-9/11 world. But we can't get control of our immigration system unless we give people a chance to come out of the shadows and to enter through legal channels and they're known to the government. They are coming here to fill available jobs, we protect American workers and we help stressed American communities. This is the solution to the problem you've been identifying, Lou, but if we just say no and just say get tough and just say crack down, we're denying the labor market reality of our hemisphere.

DOBBS: Frank, I happen to agree with you 100 percent on that. I think as you know that we can't do this ad hoc and take simple slices of this particular conundrum and call it a solution. It has to be comprehensive. Roy, how do you respond to what Frank is saying, that we can't take control of our borders without knowing precisely where everyone is...

BECK: Sure, we do have to know everyone that is coming across the border. But let's understand, since 1990, this country's program has been this. Toughen the borders but do almost totally away with workplace enforcement and interior enforcement. If you get across the borders, there's almost no chance you will be deported or interrupted in your illegal activity. And we've had six amnesties. Amnesties have been proven to just bring more people in. The solution to this is to have mandatory workplace verification that will deny jobs to illegal workers. Then we'll see far fewer people trying to come across the border.

DOBBS: I happen to agree with you on that, Roy. I find something to agree with both of you gentlemen on tonight. And it raises really the question. One, neither of you is suggesting that an estimated as many 15 million illegal aliens, many, if not most of them, who have lived in this country for a decade, should be just perfunctorily deported, are you?

SHARRY: No, not at all.

DOBBS: Roy?

BECK: No. We believe that they should all go home, but not some kind of mass deportation that would be immediate.

DOBBS: Can we agree that there are certain people within that group, Roy, who should stay here because they have proven themselves to be productive, decent citizens, despite the fact that they broke the law in entering the country? Can we get that far?

BECK: Very, very few. These are people who are basically wage thieves. They do not have a right to have jobs in this country.

DOBBS: I would only object to one thing you said there, Roy. And that is that they are wage thieves. The people who are hiring, which are, frankly, some of Frank's supporters in both business and with the consent, if you will, if not the support of labor unions, are the ones who are stealing wages. Frank, would you like to disagree with me on that?

SHARRY: I would. Are there bad actor-employers? You bet. Are they exploiting undocumented workers? You bet. But most employers want to hire good workers, earn a profit and contribute to economic growth. The problem is is that the rules don't allow them to access those workers.

DOBBS: Well, that's like...

SHARRY: We've got to change the rules.

DOBBS: We have to change the rules. I would like to see those employers, I'm sure you would, too, Frank, as a good American, and you, Roy, I would like to see them follow the rules before they start talking about changing them. But can the three of us agree that we need to control the border if we're to know how many people are crossing that border and whom we should be bringing in to this country?

SHARRY: Absolutely.

But we can't control the border.

DOBBS: Well, you say we can't. Post-September 11, we better. Frank, I hope you'll agree with that.

SHARRY: Of course. We won't control the borders, because we tried it, unless we have a comprehensive solution. That's my point.

BECK: And the comprehensive solution involves making sure that illegal aliens can't have work. No matter -- the White House will tell you that no matter what size a guest worker program you have, you have to be able to enforce the rules. It is not a guest worker program unless you can ensure that people with visas go home at the end of their visas. We don't even try to do that right now.

DOBBS: Roy Beck, Frank Sharry, we thank you both for being here. We hope you come back soon as we try to bring some light to this issue. We thank you both for trying from your two perspectives. Thank you, Roy. Thank you, Frank.

Still ahead here tonight, the newest high-profile senator. And I do mean high-profile from South Dakota. Senator-elect John Thune will join us to talk about the election, his priorities and the Bush agenda. That's next.

And then, the Bush agenda itself. How President Bush's decisive election victory will shape his plans for a new term. There's been a lot of analysis about that election and this agenda. "Vanity Fair's" Christopher Hitchens joins us next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Senator-elect John Thune is the first candidate to defeat a Senate party leader in more than a half century. I asked Senator- elect Thune earlier about his views of President Bush's nominee to replace John Ashcroft.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN THUNE (R), SENATOR ELECT SOUTH DAKOTA: Well, he obviously has the full confidence of the president. I think did a great job at the White House. My expectation is that he will ultimately be approved by the Senate.

Obviously, there will be questions asked through the process like there should be. And his record and qualifications and everything will be scrutinized. But I think that the president has confidence and trust in him. And I'm quite certain that when it's all said in done that he'll probably be the next attorney general.

DOBBS: Senator Specter here last night, was adamant that he would not in any way impose a litmus test and as a matter of fact made a very persuasive case that he had been misquoted, if you would, by the press. I know you can't imagine that occurring, but it apparently is precisely what did happen.

THUNE: My expectation is that if the system stays as it is today. And that is that the seniority system that sort of drives the chairmanships and the committee assignments in the Senate continues, that the Judiciary Committee will probably support Senator Specter.

But there are a number of us that have questions. I think what he said last week -- there were a lot of us who were bothered by that. And I expect that when we get into orientation next week that there will be a number of questions that are raised with respect to the statements that Senator Specter made, his intentions with respect to moving judicial nominations and I hope that we have a fairly full discussion of that so that everybody has a comfort level as the process moves forward.

DOBBS: You, in your campaign, did not make much of religion. You are pro-life, anti-gay marriage, but you didn't see fit to put your own religion on prominent display. Do you think that we're seeing a period -- a beginning of a period in which religion and public service is going to be intertwined inextricably?

THUNE: Well, I think that what you saw this time was people in the faith community saw the importance of this election. And that was as it pertains to judges, perhaps a couple of vacancies on the Supreme Court, what that means for the future of the country on some of these cultural issues.

And I think there was a real concern among the electorate, in particular people in the faith community, that the country was beginning to drift left. And you look at some of these issues on family and on marriage and on the sanctity of life, and where we've sort of headed and where the courts have started to take us, and I think that was a reaction against that.

And I think people across the country said this time around that they are going to come out, they are going to vote their values and they are going to put their faith into practice, so to speak, when it comes to the ballot box.

And I don't think that means that they're going to be intertwined. I think what it means is that people of faith are exercising their responsibilities and rights and privileges in this democracy to have their voice heard.

And I think that that was the voice that was heard on Election Day. And I think that there has been some analysis by the media, was it the war on terror or was it the economy? And I think that there was a big undercurrent out there of people who, on the issues of morality and values, wanted to make sure that the country wasn't drifting too far to the left and that we stood up for those traditional values.

And I think that's a good thing. I think people need to be involved in the political process. And people who have strong convictions have every right to have their voice heard in this process. And I think that's what they did this year.

DOBBS: Well, the voice of John Thune will soon be added to the U.S. Senate in Congress. We congratulate you for your victory and look forward to talking to you again soon. Senator-elect John Thune.

THUNE: Thank you very much, Lou.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: My next guest says the Democratic losses in this election are probably to blame of what he calls the left's making excuses for radical Islamist terrorism. "Vanity Fair's" columnist Christopher Hitchens joins us tonight from Miami.

Good to have you with us.

CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS, VANITY FAIR: Nice to be back.

DOBBS: The idea that terrorism, in terms of rationalization of radical Islamist terrorism, at least, can play a part. What do you mean by that?

HITCHENS: Well, I mean to say that -- I should start by saying I'm pro-war, in the sense for being in favor of the regime change interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I would say I was a militant atheist -- more like an anti-theist. I don't even think religious belief is a good thing. I'm not the only one.

But if you want to be concerned with so-called moral values, you want to be against, say, the murder of a Dutch filmmaker for supporting a Somali-born Muslim member of parliament in Holland who is in favor of pluralism. That should concern you.

DOBBS: You're referring to Theo Van Gogh murdered in Holland by radical Islamist terorists?

HITCHENS: His name which will become famous -- is already famous, Henri Theo Van Gogh. He has a famous ancestor. The name of his Somali friend and comrade in the Dutch province will become better known.

That's far more of importance to me, say, than some blithering remark made by Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, both of whom, if you remember, did say that September 11 was God's punishment on the United States. If those are moral values, I simply don't know where to start.

But when people say, as Gary Wills and others have done, that this is a counter-enlightenment vote by American Protestant pig farmer hicks, I feel a resentment on their part and myself. They did not, these humble voters, say, well, let's split the difference between ourselves and Islamic jihad. They didn't make excuses for this kind of thing.

DOBBS: I'm a farmer myself. I've worked on farms all my life. And when people look down at me because of that, I would be a little bit more than moderately annoyed. I'm always a secularist. I have problem with couching everything in moral or religious tones.

It seems to me that just traditional American values would be adequate to deal with the issue of killing 3,000 Americans. Or in the case of Europe, as you point out, Van Gogh's murder, the wounding of three Dutch policemen today as they went to arrest the radical Islamist would adequate.

HITCHENS: Or indeed, then even contemplating giving up a country as important as Iraq or Afghanistan, from which I've just returned and say, why don't we leave it to the Muslim fascists who have already made slaves out of their own people and pretend that it doesn't matter that this happens.

You hear the most extraordinary talk. Or you were hearing it from those who identified themselves as friends of the Kerry campaign and indeed even from the senator's wife who said she thought -- which was a common rumor among liberals, President Bush was stashing Osama bin Laden in secret until he could produce him for an October surprise. She actually said that.

Well, it turned out Mr. bin Laden was maintaining his own plan for an October surprise, namely to come out and endorse point by point every single thing said in Michael Moore's left-wing fundraising disaster of a documentary.

DOBBS: Christopher Hitchens, always good to have you here. I was thinking of the absurdities that surfaced from both campaigns during this election.

HITCHENS: Indeed, look, I think probably other heterosexuals are more of a threat to heterosexual marriage than gay people are.

DOBBS: So the statistics would seem to suggest.

HITCHENS: I do think Islamic religious nut cases are more of a foe than American devout voters.

DOBBS: I think we've reached an absolute concurrence on that view. Christopher Hitchens, thank you very much as always.

HITCHENS: Thank you.

DOBBS: Coming up next, new developments tonight in the Scott Peterson murder trial. We'll have a live report from the courthouse in Redwood City, California. We can't tell you just exactly how important it is. It is bizarre, and CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin will join me to analyze the profound, should it turn out to be that, and the bizarre, because it certainly is that. Next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: New developments in the Scott Peterson double murder trial. The judge is holding a hearing with attorneys on both sides after one of the attorneys was accused of misconduct. David Mattingly is live in Redwood City and has the very latest in this bizarre case for us -- David.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A bizarre case, indeed. After so many changes today regarding the jury, the both sides are back in chambers with the judge in a closed-door meeting at this hour. What it -- that is actually about, no one is telling us at this point. And, normally, we wouldn't be reporting that they're in closed-door meetings, except for the fact that every time they go in, there seems to be a new change with the jury, as we saw today. So again, possibly something brewing in the court. We'll know once everyone comes out, whenever they do come out -- Lou.

DOBBS: No idea what the charges of misconduct could center upon?

Can you speculate?

MATTINGLY: There have been no actual charges in court of misconduct. There's been a great deal of speculation regarding a conspicuously parked boat that is in a parking lot about a block away from the courthouse. This is a boat that belongs to the defense and it's a boat they used to demonstrate how hard it is for a body to be thrown overboard. That boat was never submitted into evidence. That demonstration was never made part of the trial.

But why is it parked out in public view?

That's been a source of great deal of conversation and speculation today. But again, nothing inside the court -- Lou.

DOBBS: David Mattingly, we thank you for bringing us up to date on the close door hearing and that development. And acquainting us with that boat. Thank you.

Well, that hearing just the latest indication that this more than five-month long trial is in disarray.

Joining me now to tell us what all of this means and perhaps the entire legal system is CNN legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

Can this get more absurd?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now, the jury is beginning its deliberations all over again for the third time, for the second time in two days. We have a mysterious boat, that Mark Geragos, the defense lawyer, has been accused by some people of parking near the courthouse so jurors might see it coming and going.

DOBBS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) misconduct to remind people of a boat?

TOOBIN: It's misconduct to try to get any information before the jury that is not properly in evidence. Whether that's what he's doing, I'm sure, is very much disputed.

DOBBS: It's hard to believe that he couldn't find anywhere else to park the boat.

TOOBIN: Well, he actually owns this plot of land, apparently. He bought it during the course of the trial. So, I guess he's just parking his boat on his land.

DOBBS: Jeffrey, I have to tell you. We don't cover murder trials in this broadcast, until this one. And it's very difficult to -- well, it's rather easy to lose the sense of the seriousness of this. It is a murder trial that has captured the lives of 18 people, at least, in terms of the jury, over the course of six months. And these people have the arrogance to continue this as if it's some sort of game.

TOOBIN: And think about it. I mean, I really have to lay a lot of the blame for this on the prosecutors. The prosecutors called more than 170 witnesses over five months. If you take that long, you are going to limit yourself to an eccentric group of people who are potential jurors. And we seem to see a pretty eccentric jury pool in this case.

DOBBS: Well, less a couple just in the last two days.

TOOBIN: They're dropping like flies.

DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.

Still ahead here, this country's trade deficit continues to mount to dangerously high levels. We'll have that story and the results of our poll coming up next, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More bad news on this country's record rising trade deficit.

Christine Romans is here to tell us about it -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the third highest trade deficit on record, and China every month becomes a bigger part of the problem. Our trade deficit with China was another record, more than 15 and half billion dollars and showing no sign of slowing down.

China now accounts for almost a third of our total trade deficit, and it's growing. Now we the story of cheap Chinese shoes and clothes and toys swelling our deficit. Many economists argue that's not a problem because this is now a text-based services economy. But these trade figures show an enormous deficit in high tech product, already $24 billion this year. And our services surplus, Lou, shrinking.

DOBBS: Not good news by any standard. Christine, thanks for watching after it carefully.

The results now of our poll. Nine percent of you say President Bush should listen to Mexican President Fox's request for a even less restrictive border to facilitate trade and migration, 91 percent of you say no.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. My guests include Senator-elect Mel Martinez of Florida. We'll be talking about the Bush agenda and the senator-elect's aspirations on Capitol Hill.

And tomorrow is Veteran's Day. Veteran's Affair Secretary Anthony Principi is our special guest. And former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations Dore Gold will be here to talk about his new book, "Tower of Babel," which accuses the United Nations of creating and sustaining global chaos.

Thanks for watching. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 10, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, President Bush has chosen a top adviser and close friend to be attorney general, White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is a calm and steady voice in times of crisis.

DOBBS: The fight for Falluja. Our troops now control 70 percent of the city. The military says remaining anti-Iraqi forces are trapped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will continue to hunt them down and destroy them.

DOBBS: President Bush wants millions of illegal aliens to have legal status in this country. In our face-off tonight, we debate the massive invasion of illegal aliens and what should be done about it.

And tonight, my guests are "Vanity Fair" columnist Hitchens and Senator-elect John Thune.

Hitchens is becoming a little irritable about some of the silly post-election analysis, and so am I.

John Thune is eager to move the Bush agenda forward. I'll be talking with the senator-elect, and we'll have a special report on the Bush agenda.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, November 10. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, President Bush has chosen White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, to replace John Ashcroft as attorney general. Gonzales is the most prominent Hispanic in the Bush White House and a long-time friend of the president.

President Bush declared Gonzales has upheld the highest ethics during his service in government.

Senior White House correspondent John King reports -- John. JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, the president moving in less than 24 hours after the White House announced the resignation of Attorney General John Ashcroft to name his nominee to replace Ashcroft at the Justice Department. As you noted, it is the White House counsel, Alberto Gonzales, a man who has been a close confidant and political and legal adviser to this president for the past 10 years.

Mr. Bush making the announcement this afternoon in the Roosevelt Room here at the White House, saying that as he searched for a replacement he could find no one more qualified to take the place of Attorney General Ashcroft.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: His sharp intellect and sound judgment have helped shape our policies on the war on terror, policies designed to protect the security of all Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Ashcroft -- Ashcroft these past four years has been the White House counsel. Prior to that, he was the president's counsel when he was the governor of Texas, also a Texas Supreme Court justice, a man with very fierce loyalty to this president, a soft-spoken style, a man now in line to be the nation's first Hispanic attorney general.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERTO GONZALES, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: As a former judge, I know well that some government positions require a special level of trust and integrity. The American people expect and deserve a Department of Justice guided by a rule of law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Soft-spoken and a behind the scenes player these past four years, but make no mistake, Gonzales a key architect of the administration's legal strategy that is at times quite controversial.

He wrote, for an example, a memo saying the administration had the right to deny Geneva Convention protections to some detainees in the war on terror. That will be a subject of his confirmation hearings.

He also defended the vice president's position that some records of that energy task force should be able to be kept in private. Judge Gonzales has strong views on government secrecy.

He also, of course, backs the Patriot Act, the broader surveillance and other anti-terrorism powers that many say critics say Attorney General Ashcroft abused.

And Lou, the White House is expecting speedy confirmation. They believe, though, this will be the first confirmation battle of the second Bush term. They expect some tough questions from the Democrats on Capitol Hill, but they also expect that Judge Gonzales will be conformed and confirmed quite easily and quite quickly -- Lou.

DOBBS: And John, with the loss of Alberto Gonzales from the White House and the resignation of Don Evans as commerce secretary, the president is, in point of fact, losing two of his closest advisers. But perhaps more importantly, two men with whom he is closest in this administration.

KING: Two of the Texans who came to Washington with him, although Judge Gonzales, we assume, will be moving just a few blocks away in the Justice Department and leaving the White House.

One question is who will be elevated here to take the position of White House counsel. A couple of internal candidates expected to get scrutiny there.

But the White House does say, yes, some of the president's long- time advisers moving on, although still a very solid core, if you will, of the Texans who came to Washington with President Bush.

One other quick point. The president today did nothing to tamp down that there could be more turnover. He was asked if Secretary of State Powell would be staying on the second term, for a second term. All he said was the secretary has done a great job. He would not answer that question definitively -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, John King, our senior White House correspondent.

Well, as John just reported, the Senate is expected to move quickly to confirm Gonzales as attorney general. But Gonzales is likely to face tough questions from lawmakers on the appropriate balance between preserving civil liberties and fighting the war on terrorists.

Congressional correspondent Ed Henry reports -- Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

That's right. Senate Democrats are vowing that they will put a lot of scrutiny on Judge Gonzales' tenure as White House counsel. Specifically, as John King mentioned, the memos he wrote about the Geneva Convention and how it applied specifically to prisoners at Abu Ghraib and also at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

That's something that Democrats are vowing to offer a lot of heat and make sure that they scrutinize Judge Gonzales closely. But Democrats are privately admitting it will be very difficult for them to block this nomination.

First of all, Democrats coming out of this election want to pick their fights very carefully. They know there may be some even more high-profile nominations coming down, possibly even some Supreme Court nomination fights. And they do not want to use all their -- all of their might, all of their power just yet.

And also, Democrats quite candidly are admitting privately they're not about to block the first Hispanic attorney general from taking office, especially right after an election where President Bush did quite well with Hispanic voters, better than Democrats and even Republicans expected.

And interestingly, some of the biggest shots being fired at Judge Gonzales right now are coming from conservatives. I spoke earlier to conservative activist Richard Viguerie.

And he said that while he thinks Judge Gonzales will make a fine attorney general, he and other conservatives are concerned that President Bush now may be grooming Judge Gonzales to one day become a Supreme Court nominee. Richard Viguerie says that would be a problem, because he compares Judge Gonzales to a nominee in the first Bush administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD VIGUERIE, CONSERVATIVE STRATEGIST: He has never identified himself, or even privately that conservatives are aware of, with the president's social agenda, political agenda. And he's basically a blank slate.

And President Bush's father, when he was president, sent up an attorney who was a blank slate to be on the Supreme Court, and his name is David Souter. And so conservatives having a saying among themselves, do you know how to say David Souter in Spanish? And it's Alberto Gonzales.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY: But I spoke to Republican Senator John Cornyn. He's a key conservative on the judiciary committee, which will be charged with confirming Judge Gonzales to the attorney general position.

And Senator Cornyn said that conservatives are missing the point here. He thinks that Judge Gonzales will be a fine attorney general.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: Judge Gonzales is the kind of guy that is extremely professional. He doesn't throw curve balls, and I think he'll withstand the confirmation process very well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And in fact, Lou, this is one thing that Republicans and Democrats, perhaps, can agree on right after this election. As John King mentioned, it's looking very much like Judge Gonzales can get through quickly and relatively easy. There will be tough questions, but it's very likely he will be confirmed -- Lou.

DOBBS: And with Richard Viguerie, a prominent conservative activist, is all but endorsing him for attorney general, but worrying over whether or not he would be on the Supreme Court, that looks like he's almost looking for something to criticize. HENRY: Absolutely. But there is concern, I can tell you, from conservatives. They feel that he is a blank slate. They feel that if Judge Gonzales is attorney general, he will be somebody that the president -- he will just be following the president's policies, mostly. But that if he were on the high court, that would be a whole other matter and there might be a big fight over that, Lou.

DOBBS: OK. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Turning now to events in Iraq and the battle for Falluja, military commanders today said our troops have found houses in Falluja where radical Islamist terrorists have murdered hostages. They refer to them as hostage slaughterhouses.

Our troops now control 70 percent of Falluja. The top Marine Corps general in Iraq said our troops will hunt down the remaining enemy and destroy them.

CNN Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If the insurgents had a plan for the defense of Falluja, it quickly crumbled under the weight of U.S. artillery, air power and armor.

Street fighting remains intense at times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taken fire from the mosque directly sought.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ones we can see.

MCINTYRE: Mosques, used by insurgents as command posts, have come under heavy attack.

But with most of Falluja resembling a ghost town, it's now growing more apparent that, along with much of the population, many of the insurgents fled in advance of the assault. What's left appears to be a small number of desperate and disorganized remnants.

LT. GEN. JOHN SATTLER, U.S. MARINE CORPS: They are not able to communicate to work on any coordination. They are now in small pockets blind moving throughout the city, and we will continue to hunt them down and destroy them.

MCINTYRE: According to one Marine commander, insurgents have been pushed into a narrow strip along Falluja's main east/west highway. He estimated 70 percent of the city was under control of U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Mop up operations are expected to last another day or two. U.S. casualties are still described as light with enemy dead put at more than 70. And some captured insurgents are said to be giving valuable information.

Videotape of a flag raising by soldiers of Iraq's 1st Brigade was replayed at a press briefing near Falluja, featuring both a U.S. and Iraqi general.

MCINTYRE: The images of Americans and Iraqis standing shoulder to shoulder are considered vital to counter sympathy for the insurgents and their anti-occupation message.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and our brothers in arms. We're privileged to be fighting next to you, and you're doing a great job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Iraqi troops also reported finding what appeared to be hostage slaughter houses where kidnap victims had been beheaded. Among the evidence found, their CDs and black clothing similar to that worn by terrorists in hostage videotapes -- Lou.

DOBBS: Jamie, I understand the Pentagon's reluctance to get involved in body count. But when talking about 70 anti-Iraqi forces dead after being engaged by an estimated 12,000 Iraqi and American troops, those are rather startling numbers, are they not?

MCINTYRE: Well, I think you're going to see that number grow. That's the last number provided by the U.S. military. We have some indications that the number of enemy dead could be in the several hundreds. But it still looks like the 2,000 to 3,000 insurgents that were thought to be there -- many of them may have left.

DOBBS: And do we have an estimate as to how many, what percentage, what number?

MCINTYRE: No, we don't.

DOBBS: OK. Jamie, thank you very much.

Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Joining me now, our CNN Military Analyst General David Grange.

General, good to talk with you. Yesterday, last night, we were talking about the importance of that cordon, as you described it, surrounding the city to make certain that there was no escape from Falluja for the anti-Iraqi forces. It looks like that is precisely what's occurred here. What's your reaction?

GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Well, you know, when you move about 8,000 or so American and Iraqi forces up to an area to attack positions, the word gets out, and, you know, you could argue, well, maybe a cordon should have been set earlier, maybe a month ago. Who knows?

I'm sure a lot of them slipped out, and now they'll have to be hunted down at another place at another time. But it's pretty hard to hide a movement of that many people, and those -- obviously, the enemy likes to fight in two-, three-man groups. They don't want to stay and fight in hundreds or 30 or 50 or so, and so a lot of them probably left. DOBBS: A lot of them probably left, as you put it, but, at the same time -- and I take entirely your point about the difficulty of moving what would be a division-level force into position around Falluja. At the same time, it would be rather difficult, would it not, to move 2,000 or 3,000 anti-Iraqi forces out of the city as well?

GRANGE: Well, it would be. I have a feeling, Lou, that what happened here is that people moved out over the last month. In other words, it wasn't a one-night movement. They moved a couple in a car here and there. And who knows if it's 2,000 to 3,000?

I mean, there may be at one time that many in the city. It could be it's only 500 in the city at one time, and they're elsewhere in the country. So it's very hard to put your finger on it, and, again, a lot of them blended in with the population.

DOBBS: And, General, what do you expect to be the next step? The Marine general there saying that the -- they thought that there would be a cleanup that would take one to two days.

Jamie McIntyre just reported at least at current levels about 70 insurgents killed, others captured, but not many. Do those numbers strike you as remarkably low given the scale of the assault that we were led to believe this would be?

GRANGE: They do seem low, Lou. I think at the end here, at the -- when they mop up the rest of the city, they're going to find a bunch more. A lot of them have crawled away as they continue to move to the places that the coalition forces are not. They'll find more bodies, and a count will be higher. But I don't think you're going to see vast numbers.

DOBBS: OK. Well, we thank you very much as always.

General David Grange.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Still ahead, is United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan obstructing justice? Top U.S. senators say the United Nations is refusing to answer their questions about the multibillion-dollar oil-for-food scandal. We'll have that special report from the United Nations next.

And the presidential candidates all but ignored immigration as an issue during this election. But now this critical issue is apparently a top priority for President Bush. We'll have a special report coming right up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan is under fire, once again, in the multibillion-dollar oil-for-food scandal. Two U.S. senators investigating the scandal have sent Annan a sharply-worded letter and they accuse him of obstructing their work.

Richard Roth reports from the U.N.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): For months, several congressional committees have accused the United Nations of blocking their own oil-for-food investigations.

Now two U.S. senators have stepped up the pressure, sending a letter to U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan charging him with preventing access to U.N. officials and documents related to the $64 billion humanitarian program.

It's noteworthy that one of the senators is Carl Levin of Michigan, a Democrat and longtime supporter of the United States. Levin and Republican Senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota believe Annan and the U.N. own oil-for-food panel are stonewalling congressional investigators.

SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: I'm angry that we find the U.N. proactively interfering with our investigation by telling certain folks not to cooperate with us. So we're not very pleased with the U.N. response to date.

ROTH: This is not the first letter. A torrent of mail this year from Washington lawmakers requesting documents has been rebuffed. The U.N. held firm that it can't turn over internal U.N. oil-for-food files.

FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: We would like those who are asking for these documents to have a clear understanding of why we take the position that we do. It's not to inhibit.

ROTH: Annan has said he wants all information handled by the U.N. authorized oil-for-food panel run by former Fed Chairman Paul Voelker.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: Because you don't want to have the documents flying all over the place. and we've made our position very clear.

COLEMAN: The facts are that the U.N. is proactively -- proactively -- interfering with our ability to get information we need. That's not good for the United Nations. That's not good for the global community.

ROTH: Paul Voelker was at the U.N. Tuesday for a one-on-one meeting with Kofi Annan. The U.N. is reviewing its position, but doesn't expect to start sharing with Congress. That will, no doubt, draw even more heat on the beleaguered organization.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROTH: The U.N. and Paul Voelker's office will talk tomorrow about slight adjustments perhaps and information sharing with the Congress. Senator Coleman says at hearings next week on Capitol Hill, he'll will reveal new information which will show the oil-for-food program had even more corruption than earlier reported -- Lou.

DOBBS: It was rather interesting, Richard, the rather condescending tone taken by the United Nations spokesman when addressing two of the most respected U.S. senators in Washington, D.C. Is there a failure to understand that this Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, are very serious about this issue?

ROTH: I think they understand here the issue is very serious. They're getting warnings and feelings coming from their colleagues in Washington that, especially post-election, the U.N. is not exactly in the catbird seat here, especially after Kofi Annan called the Iraq war illegal and last week sent a letter to the president saying beware of going into Falluja militarily.

They know this, but officials here are saying let's let Voelker do his job, back off from trying to cross-examine his witnesses and, in effect, "There are too many cooks," and the problem, Lou, is also that the U.N. deals with these governments.

Now if the Bush administration wanted to come out and start swinging, it might be different. But they don't just jump when the Duma in Russia or anywhere...

DOBBS: Well, I wouldn't, Richard, go too far comparing the Duma to the United States Senate.

ROTH: No, but that's how the U.N. is set up.

DOBBS: I understand that, and that's precisely the issue.

Richard Roth.

Thank you very much. Hopefully, we'll see greater cooperation from the United Nations.

Richard Roth.

Thank you very much.

Still ahead here tonight, the Bush agenda. President Bush is already promising his second term will bring a legal status for millions of illegal aliens in this country. Our special report is next.

And two experts will face off tonight on reform of our immigration policies.

And then, a power shift in the U.S. Senate. The first man to unseat a Senate party leader in more than a half-century. Senator- elect John Thune of South Dakota joins me.

All of that and a great deal more still ahead tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

This week, our special reports on the president's agenda for his second term tonight focusing on immigration. The immigration crisis in this country has been all but ignored by both President Bush and Senator Kerry during the campaign.

Now, a week after the election, the president is pushing for millions of illegal aliens to be granted legal status in this country.

Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush quickly signaled that immigration reform will be a second-term priority by sending Secretary of State Colin Powell to Mexico this week.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States is proud to be a nation of immigrants. But too many of those immigrants living and working in our country today have no legal status.

WIAN: The White House's first goal, convincing Congress to pass the president's nearly year-old temporary worker proposal. Even though a half-dozen similar plans exist in Congress, none have advanced.

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: The guest worker program is one of the keys to ending illegal immigration. Have a pathway and a control system and a funding source. At the same time, unless we have prosecution for the people who break our laws repeatedly, we'll have no success, and, certainly, the Congress isn't going to provide a guest worker programs.

WIAN: One of the backers of Arizona's ballot initiative preventing illegal aliens from voting and collecting state welfare says he believes the White House will try to find a middle ground.

RANDY FULLER, YES ON PROP. 200: I think the president is -- has been modifying his position on this over the past six or nine months, and he definitely opposes the McCain-Kolbe-Flake bill that's been introduced in Congress.

He says it's just purely an amnesty bill, and he will not do amnesty. They're going to double the number of border patrolmen we have here, and I think some other things are coming.

WIAN: Meanwhile, Mexican President Vicente Fox has other things in mind, including a less restrictive border to facilitate trade.

VICENTE FOX, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: Our benchmark could be the situation between Canada and the United States. That border is secure, that border is fluid, and that border has the most modern technological devices to operate it with efficiency.

WIAN: What Fox fails to mention is that the U.S.-Canadian border separates two nations with similar poverty rates, while, in Mexico, more than half the population lives on less than $2 a day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: Seemingly absent from the discussions are demands the U.S. could make of Mexico specifically to improve its own economy and provide jobs for its own people, instead of encouraging them to head north -- Lou.

DOBBS: Casey, thank you very much.

Casey Wian reporting from Los Angeles.

That brings us to our poll question tonight. Do you believe President Bush should listen to Mexican President Fox's request for an even less restrictive border to facilitate trade and migration? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results coming up later.

Up next, much more on the president's bold plan to legalize millions of illegal aliens in this country. We'll have two opposing views on immigration policy reform. They face off here tonight.

And the Bush agenda for the next four years. South Dakota's Senator-elect John Thune is my guest, and I'll be joined by "Vanity Fair" columnist Christopher Hitchens.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be joined by two experts with very differing views on how to reform immigration policy in this country. But, first, taking a look at some of the top stories.

In the double murder trial of Scott Peterson, the second juror in as many days has been dismissed. This time, the jury foreman lost his job. Juror number five began the trial as an alternate, replacing the first juror number five in June. No reason given for his dismissal.

The jury must now begin deliberations for a third time in a week. I'll be joined by CNN Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin to explain to us what's happening in this trial.

And a new study says taking Vitamin E to ward off heart disease may do more harm than good. Researchers say that people who took high dosages of Vitamin E were, in fact, more likely to die earlier than those who did not.

And the Federal Reserve today, as expected, raised interest rates a quarter of a percentage point to 2 percent, the fourth increase in interest rates by the Fed this year.

President Bush is moving aggressively to advance his immigration agenda just a week after winning reelection. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Secretary of Homeland Defense Tom Ridge traveled to Mexico this week. Secretary Powell said the president's plan to give legal status to millions of illegal aliens is "a high priority."

Joining me now to face off on the immigration crisis and proposed reforms, from Washington, Frank Sharry -- he is executive director of the National Immigration Forum, and he supports the president's proposal to grant legal status to millions of illegal aliens. And Roy Beck. He's executive director of NUMBERSUSA and he opposes the president's plan.

Good to have you here, gentlemen. Let me begin, first, with you, Roy. What's wrong with the president's proposal?

ROY BECK, EXEC. DIR., NUMBERSUSA: The biggest problem is that he is bringing this out before his White House has the prerequisites in place. The president has set two major principles. Number one, that all guest workers and illegal aliens who are given guest worker statuses will go home at the end of their visa. Secondly, he has said that this program cannot hurt American workers. In neither case are the programs in place that would ensure that these principles would be held. In fact the White House is working against Speaker Hastert who has been trying to put in the 9/11 security bill, some of the key provisions that are needed before you could even consider a guest worker program.

DOBBS: Frank, your thoughts?

FRANK SHARRY, EXEC. DIR., NATL. IMMIGRATION FORUM: Look, for too long, we have had a dialogue of the deaf on this issue. It is not a matter of if we enforce our laws or if we change our laws. We can't enforce our laws unless we change our laws. We have a 21st century labor market with Mexico and Central America but we don't have legal channels for people. If 10 million undocumented immigrants who are working hard and paying taxes, living in the shadows. The idea is to bring these people under the rule of law in a regulatory regime that works, that protects workers, that protects communities, that protects our borders. We have to do both things simultaneously for it to work. And that's how we'll achieve being a nation of immigrants and a nation of laws. That's what the president's plan is directed at. It is not perfect. But it is an excellent start. If he works on a bipartisan basis, we can finally fix our broken system.

DOBBS: Do you expect that to happen, Roy?

BECK: No, because we have no need for a mass guest worker program. We have 14 million Americans who cannot find full-time work right now. We also have a situation in which we have millions of Americans who are working full-time who are near or below poverty level. The president's plan is primarily for guest workers who are lower skilled workers. We don't have a shortage of lower skilled workers. If we did, then lower skilled workers would see their wages rising. They wouldn't have this health insurance problem. There's no need for it. It is inexplicable why the president feels there is such urgency to legalize millions of lower skilled illegal aliens and bring in more foreign workers.

DOBBS: Well, perhaps that sense of urgency is created at least in terms of the most recent report by "TIME" magazine, a cover story in point of fact, Frank. 3 million illegal aliens entering the country this year. What in the world are we to do?

SHARRY: That number is exaggerated but there is a...

DOBBS: Wait a minute, Frank. Tell me by how much then if you are so sure.

SHARRY: Well, 350,000 undocumented immigrants stay here after my grading. It's about twice that number that come in. The problem is the same. "TIME" is right in this respect that it is unconscionable for this country to not know who is in this country and who is coming in a post-9/11 world. But we can't get control of our immigration system unless we give people a chance to come out of the shadows and to enter through legal channels and they're known to the government. They are coming here to fill available jobs, we protect American workers and we help stressed American communities. This is the solution to the problem you've been identifying, Lou, but if we just say no and just say get tough and just say crack down, we're denying the labor market reality of our hemisphere.

DOBBS: Frank, I happen to agree with you 100 percent on that. I think as you know that we can't do this ad hoc and take simple slices of this particular conundrum and call it a solution. It has to be comprehensive. Roy, how do you respond to what Frank is saying, that we can't take control of our borders without knowing precisely where everyone is...

BECK: Sure, we do have to know everyone that is coming across the border. But let's understand, since 1990, this country's program has been this. Toughen the borders but do almost totally away with workplace enforcement and interior enforcement. If you get across the borders, there's almost no chance you will be deported or interrupted in your illegal activity. And we've had six amnesties. Amnesties have been proven to just bring more people in. The solution to this is to have mandatory workplace verification that will deny jobs to illegal workers. Then we'll see far fewer people trying to come across the border.

DOBBS: I happen to agree with you on that, Roy. I find something to agree with both of you gentlemen on tonight. And it raises really the question. One, neither of you is suggesting that an estimated as many 15 million illegal aliens, many, if not most of them, who have lived in this country for a decade, should be just perfunctorily deported, are you?

SHARRY: No, not at all.

DOBBS: Roy?

BECK: No. We believe that they should all go home, but not some kind of mass deportation that would be immediate.

DOBBS: Can we agree that there are certain people within that group, Roy, who should stay here because they have proven themselves to be productive, decent citizens, despite the fact that they broke the law in entering the country? Can we get that far?

BECK: Very, very few. These are people who are basically wage thieves. They do not have a right to have jobs in this country.

DOBBS: I would only object to one thing you said there, Roy. And that is that they are wage thieves. The people who are hiring, which are, frankly, some of Frank's supporters in both business and with the consent, if you will, if not the support of labor unions, are the ones who are stealing wages. Frank, would you like to disagree with me on that?

SHARRY: I would. Are there bad actor-employers? You bet. Are they exploiting undocumented workers? You bet. But most employers want to hire good workers, earn a profit and contribute to economic growth. The problem is is that the rules don't allow them to access those workers.

DOBBS: Well, that's like...

SHARRY: We've got to change the rules.

DOBBS: We have to change the rules. I would like to see those employers, I'm sure you would, too, Frank, as a good American, and you, Roy, I would like to see them follow the rules before they start talking about changing them. But can the three of us agree that we need to control the border if we're to know how many people are crossing that border and whom we should be bringing in to this country?

SHARRY: Absolutely.

But we can't control the border.

DOBBS: Well, you say we can't. Post-September 11, we better. Frank, I hope you'll agree with that.

SHARRY: Of course. We won't control the borders, because we tried it, unless we have a comprehensive solution. That's my point.

BECK: And the comprehensive solution involves making sure that illegal aliens can't have work. No matter -- the White House will tell you that no matter what size a guest worker program you have, you have to be able to enforce the rules. It is not a guest worker program unless you can ensure that people with visas go home at the end of their visas. We don't even try to do that right now.

DOBBS: Roy Beck, Frank Sharry, we thank you both for being here. We hope you come back soon as we try to bring some light to this issue. We thank you both for trying from your two perspectives. Thank you, Roy. Thank you, Frank.

Still ahead here tonight, the newest high-profile senator. And I do mean high-profile from South Dakota. Senator-elect John Thune will join us to talk about the election, his priorities and the Bush agenda. That's next.

And then, the Bush agenda itself. How President Bush's decisive election victory will shape his plans for a new term. There's been a lot of analysis about that election and this agenda. "Vanity Fair's" Christopher Hitchens joins us next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Senator-elect John Thune is the first candidate to defeat a Senate party leader in more than a half century. I asked Senator- elect Thune earlier about his views of President Bush's nominee to replace John Ashcroft.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN THUNE (R), SENATOR ELECT SOUTH DAKOTA: Well, he obviously has the full confidence of the president. I think did a great job at the White House. My expectation is that he will ultimately be approved by the Senate.

Obviously, there will be questions asked through the process like there should be. And his record and qualifications and everything will be scrutinized. But I think that the president has confidence and trust in him. And I'm quite certain that when it's all said in done that he'll probably be the next attorney general.

DOBBS: Senator Specter here last night, was adamant that he would not in any way impose a litmus test and as a matter of fact made a very persuasive case that he had been misquoted, if you would, by the press. I know you can't imagine that occurring, but it apparently is precisely what did happen.

THUNE: My expectation is that if the system stays as it is today. And that is that the seniority system that sort of drives the chairmanships and the committee assignments in the Senate continues, that the Judiciary Committee will probably support Senator Specter.

But there are a number of us that have questions. I think what he said last week -- there were a lot of us who were bothered by that. And I expect that when we get into orientation next week that there will be a number of questions that are raised with respect to the statements that Senator Specter made, his intentions with respect to moving judicial nominations and I hope that we have a fairly full discussion of that so that everybody has a comfort level as the process moves forward.

DOBBS: You, in your campaign, did not make much of religion. You are pro-life, anti-gay marriage, but you didn't see fit to put your own religion on prominent display. Do you think that we're seeing a period -- a beginning of a period in which religion and public service is going to be intertwined inextricably?

THUNE: Well, I think that what you saw this time was people in the faith community saw the importance of this election. And that was as it pertains to judges, perhaps a couple of vacancies on the Supreme Court, what that means for the future of the country on some of these cultural issues.

And I think there was a real concern among the electorate, in particular people in the faith community, that the country was beginning to drift left. And you look at some of these issues on family and on marriage and on the sanctity of life, and where we've sort of headed and where the courts have started to take us, and I think that was a reaction against that.

And I think people across the country said this time around that they are going to come out, they are going to vote their values and they are going to put their faith into practice, so to speak, when it comes to the ballot box.

And I don't think that means that they're going to be intertwined. I think what it means is that people of faith are exercising their responsibilities and rights and privileges in this democracy to have their voice heard.

And I think that that was the voice that was heard on Election Day. And I think that there has been some analysis by the media, was it the war on terror or was it the economy? And I think that there was a big undercurrent out there of people who, on the issues of morality and values, wanted to make sure that the country wasn't drifting too far to the left and that we stood up for those traditional values.

And I think that's a good thing. I think people need to be involved in the political process. And people who have strong convictions have every right to have their voice heard in this process. And I think that's what they did this year.

DOBBS: Well, the voice of John Thune will soon be added to the U.S. Senate in Congress. We congratulate you for your victory and look forward to talking to you again soon. Senator-elect John Thune.

THUNE: Thank you very much, Lou.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: My next guest says the Democratic losses in this election are probably to blame of what he calls the left's making excuses for radical Islamist terrorism. "Vanity Fair's" columnist Christopher Hitchens joins us tonight from Miami.

Good to have you with us.

CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS, VANITY FAIR: Nice to be back.

DOBBS: The idea that terrorism, in terms of rationalization of radical Islamist terrorism, at least, can play a part. What do you mean by that?

HITCHENS: Well, I mean to say that -- I should start by saying I'm pro-war, in the sense for being in favor of the regime change interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I would say I was a militant atheist -- more like an anti-theist. I don't even think religious belief is a good thing. I'm not the only one.

But if you want to be concerned with so-called moral values, you want to be against, say, the murder of a Dutch filmmaker for supporting a Somali-born Muslim member of parliament in Holland who is in favor of pluralism. That should concern you.

DOBBS: You're referring to Theo Van Gogh murdered in Holland by radical Islamist terorists?

HITCHENS: His name which will become famous -- is already famous, Henri Theo Van Gogh. He has a famous ancestor. The name of his Somali friend and comrade in the Dutch province will become better known.

That's far more of importance to me, say, than some blithering remark made by Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, both of whom, if you remember, did say that September 11 was God's punishment on the United States. If those are moral values, I simply don't know where to start.

But when people say, as Gary Wills and others have done, that this is a counter-enlightenment vote by American Protestant pig farmer hicks, I feel a resentment on their part and myself. They did not, these humble voters, say, well, let's split the difference between ourselves and Islamic jihad. They didn't make excuses for this kind of thing.

DOBBS: I'm a farmer myself. I've worked on farms all my life. And when people look down at me because of that, I would be a little bit more than moderately annoyed. I'm always a secularist. I have problem with couching everything in moral or religious tones.

It seems to me that just traditional American values would be adequate to deal with the issue of killing 3,000 Americans. Or in the case of Europe, as you point out, Van Gogh's murder, the wounding of three Dutch policemen today as they went to arrest the radical Islamist would adequate.

HITCHENS: Or indeed, then even contemplating giving up a country as important as Iraq or Afghanistan, from which I've just returned and say, why don't we leave it to the Muslim fascists who have already made slaves out of their own people and pretend that it doesn't matter that this happens.

You hear the most extraordinary talk. Or you were hearing it from those who identified themselves as friends of the Kerry campaign and indeed even from the senator's wife who said she thought -- which was a common rumor among liberals, President Bush was stashing Osama bin Laden in secret until he could produce him for an October surprise. She actually said that.

Well, it turned out Mr. bin Laden was maintaining his own plan for an October surprise, namely to come out and endorse point by point every single thing said in Michael Moore's left-wing fundraising disaster of a documentary.

DOBBS: Christopher Hitchens, always good to have you here. I was thinking of the absurdities that surfaced from both campaigns during this election.

HITCHENS: Indeed, look, I think probably other heterosexuals are more of a threat to heterosexual marriage than gay people are.

DOBBS: So the statistics would seem to suggest.

HITCHENS: I do think Islamic religious nut cases are more of a foe than American devout voters.

DOBBS: I think we've reached an absolute concurrence on that view. Christopher Hitchens, thank you very much as always.

HITCHENS: Thank you.

DOBBS: Coming up next, new developments tonight in the Scott Peterson murder trial. We'll have a live report from the courthouse in Redwood City, California. We can't tell you just exactly how important it is. It is bizarre, and CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin will join me to analyze the profound, should it turn out to be that, and the bizarre, because it certainly is that. Next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: New developments in the Scott Peterson double murder trial. The judge is holding a hearing with attorneys on both sides after one of the attorneys was accused of misconduct. David Mattingly is live in Redwood City and has the very latest in this bizarre case for us -- David.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A bizarre case, indeed. After so many changes today regarding the jury, the both sides are back in chambers with the judge in a closed-door meeting at this hour. What it -- that is actually about, no one is telling us at this point. And, normally, we wouldn't be reporting that they're in closed-door meetings, except for the fact that every time they go in, there seems to be a new change with the jury, as we saw today. So again, possibly something brewing in the court. We'll know once everyone comes out, whenever they do come out -- Lou.

DOBBS: No idea what the charges of misconduct could center upon?

Can you speculate?

MATTINGLY: There have been no actual charges in court of misconduct. There's been a great deal of speculation regarding a conspicuously parked boat that is in a parking lot about a block away from the courthouse. This is a boat that belongs to the defense and it's a boat they used to demonstrate how hard it is for a body to be thrown overboard. That boat was never submitted into evidence. That demonstration was never made part of the trial.

But why is it parked out in public view?

That's been a source of great deal of conversation and speculation today. But again, nothing inside the court -- Lou.

DOBBS: David Mattingly, we thank you for bringing us up to date on the close door hearing and that development. And acquainting us with that boat. Thank you.

Well, that hearing just the latest indication that this more than five-month long trial is in disarray.

Joining me now to tell us what all of this means and perhaps the entire legal system is CNN legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.

Can this get more absurd?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now, the jury is beginning its deliberations all over again for the third time, for the second time in two days. We have a mysterious boat, that Mark Geragos, the defense lawyer, has been accused by some people of parking near the courthouse so jurors might see it coming and going.

DOBBS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) misconduct to remind people of a boat?

TOOBIN: It's misconduct to try to get any information before the jury that is not properly in evidence. Whether that's what he's doing, I'm sure, is very much disputed.

DOBBS: It's hard to believe that he couldn't find anywhere else to park the boat.

TOOBIN: Well, he actually owns this plot of land, apparently. He bought it during the course of the trial. So, I guess he's just parking his boat on his land.

DOBBS: Jeffrey, I have to tell you. We don't cover murder trials in this broadcast, until this one. And it's very difficult to -- well, it's rather easy to lose the sense of the seriousness of this. It is a murder trial that has captured the lives of 18 people, at least, in terms of the jury, over the course of six months. And these people have the arrogance to continue this as if it's some sort of game.

TOOBIN: And think about it. I mean, I really have to lay a lot of the blame for this on the prosecutors. The prosecutors called more than 170 witnesses over five months. If you take that long, you are going to limit yourself to an eccentric group of people who are potential jurors. And we seem to see a pretty eccentric jury pool in this case.

DOBBS: Well, less a couple just in the last two days.

TOOBIN: They're dropping like flies.

DOBBS: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.

Still ahead here, this country's trade deficit continues to mount to dangerously high levels. We'll have that story and the results of our poll coming up next, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More bad news on this country's record rising trade deficit.

Christine Romans is here to tell us about it -- Christine.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the third highest trade deficit on record, and China every month becomes a bigger part of the problem. Our trade deficit with China was another record, more than 15 and half billion dollars and showing no sign of slowing down.

China now accounts for almost a third of our total trade deficit, and it's growing. Now we the story of cheap Chinese shoes and clothes and toys swelling our deficit. Many economists argue that's not a problem because this is now a text-based services economy. But these trade figures show an enormous deficit in high tech product, already $24 billion this year. And our services surplus, Lou, shrinking.

DOBBS: Not good news by any standard. Christine, thanks for watching after it carefully.

The results now of our poll. Nine percent of you say President Bush should listen to Mexican President Fox's request for a even less restrictive border to facilitate trade and migration, 91 percent of you say no.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. My guests include Senator-elect Mel Martinez of Florida. We'll be talking about the Bush agenda and the senator-elect's aspirations on Capitol Hill.

And tomorrow is Veteran's Day. Veteran's Affair Secretary Anthony Principi is our special guest. And former Israeli ambassador to the United Nations Dore Gold will be here to talk about his new book, "Tower of Babel," which accuses the United Nations of creating and sustaining global chaos.

Thanks for watching. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up next.

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