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Power Struggle to Replace Arafat; Fierce Fighting in Falluja

Aired November 11, 2004 - 19:00   ET


ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening from Los Angeles. I'm Anderson Cooper.
The rush is on to bury Yasser Arafat and find the fortune he's hidden away.

360 starts now.

Yasser Arafat, dead at 75. Tonight, the power struggle to replace him, and the search to find his hidden fortune.

Fierce fighting in Falluja. Marines slowed by snipers still moving forward house by house, street by street. Tonight, we take you to the front lines.

A crowded parking lot, a woman chased and forced into the trunk of a car. But bystanders do nothing to help. An abduction and an outrage caught on tape.

Too violent for prime time, "Saving Private Ryan"? Some ABC affiliates pull the plug on a Veterans Day program. Tonight, has the FCC created a culture of censorship?

The 9/11 conspiracy theory. Tonight we delve deeper into the facts and the fiction behind those who say a plane never hit the Pentagon.

And our special series, Starved for Perfection. Tonight, supermodel secrets to staying thin, the lengths they go to meet unrealistic demands.

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of ANDERSON COOPER 360.

COOPER: And good evening again, live from Los Angeles.

One man has died, and the world has changed as a result, making many people hope right now that some kind of new order is possible in the Middle East. Just moments ago on the South Lawn of the White House, British Prime Minister Tony Blair arrived for talks with President Bush. There you see it.

Meanwhile, preparations are beginning to be made for the burial of Yasser Arafat, his body arriving in Cairo this afternoon for tomorrow's state funeral there. Egypt will observe three days of official mourning. Word of Arafat's death prompted an outpouring of grief in the Palestinian territories. This a picture of crowds gathered outside his Ramallah compound. We've seen pictures like it all day long. A young man with an assault weapon there.

Covering all the angles, tonight John King at the White House and Christiane Amanpour is in Cairo.

We begin at the White House. John?

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, you mentioned the arrival of Tony Blair. He is perhaps this president's closest ally. But he also comes to the White House carrying European complaints that now, especially after the death of Yasser Arafat, it is time for this president to do more to push for Middle East peace.


KING (voice-over): A wartime president on Veterans Day, paying tribute to troops fighting in Iraq and facing pressure to turn his focus to peacemaking in a Middle East transformed by the death of Yasser Arafat.

In a statement, Mr. Bush offered condolences to the Palestinian people and said his hope is that they can finally realize their aspirations for an independent democratic Palestine that is at peace with its neighbors.

The president never hid his contempt for Arafat, but says there is a diplomatic opening now if the new Palestinian leadership is committed to reform and peace.

Administration officials privately voiced hope that longtime Arafat deputy Mahmoud Abbas emerges as the new leader. Mr. Bush spoke highly of Abbas during his brief tenure as Palestinian prime minister.

But the public White House position is that the Palestinians must make that choice.

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: If we put our stamp of approval in a very public way upon a particular individual, that could doom that individual's prospects for becoming leader of the Palestinians, he could be seen as the American stooge.

KING: As Mr. Bush faces new pressure to take a new lead in peacemaking, he is, not surprisingly, getting conflicting advice. The Palestinians want pressure on Israel.

HASSAN ABDEL RAHMAN, PALESTINIAN REPRESENTATIVE TO THE UNITED STATES: Stop building Jewish settlements in the Palestinian territories. Stop assassinating Palestinian community leaders. Stop demolishing Palestinian homes.

KING: But Israel's ambassador to the United States says Mr. Bush should step in only if the new Palestinian leadership first proves its commitment to peace. DANIEL AYALON, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES: The fundamental issue is to end the Palestinian terrorism, to dismantle the terrorist, the Palestinian terrorist organizations, stop the incitement, and then the sky is the limit.


KING: Now, as those talks with Prime Minister Blair get underway, already some European complaints about the relatively midlevel delegation Mr. Bush has sent to represent the United States at the Arafat funeral. It is led by an assistant secretary of state, William Burns. The White House says this administration will prove its commitment to the new Palestinian leadership and not go out of its way to pay tribute to a man Mr. Bush considered to be an obstacle to peace and a terrorist, Anderson.

COOPER: John, you might have already said this. Was this a prescheduled visit by Tony Blair?

KING: He was scheduled to come prior to the death of Yasser Arafat, although he was saying even before the death of Yasser Arafat, he did want to push Mr. Bush to get more involved in the Middle East.

COOPER: All right, John King, thanks, from the White House.

Exactly where Yasser Arafat would be buried has been a point of contention for days now. As we told you, his body was flown from Paris to Cairo earlier today, but he is not going to be buried there. He wanted to be buried in Jerusalem. That's not going to happen either.

CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, has been following all the twists and turns, joins us now by videophone from Egypt. Christiane?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, no matter what people think of Yasser Arafat, he was a world leader for about 40 years. And world leaders have, in fact, turned out to make his final hours, his last resting place, one of dignity and respect for the Palestinian cause.

His casket did arrive in Cairo, Egypt, this evening after being flown from Paris on a Paris military Airbus. It was accompanied by his widow, Suha Arafat, and Palestinian officials who had come to return the body of their leader to their funeral and on to the final resting place. French had put on a military honor guard, eight military pallbearers carried the coffin to the helicopter to the plane. There was the national anthems of both the Palestinian and also of France sounded at that ceremony at the airport.

And analysts have said this is not just a show of support for Yasser Arafat, but a very public show of support for the Palestinian cause.

We are now going to show you some live pictures of Ramallah on the occupied West Bank, which is where Yasser Arafat will, in fact, be buried. We are seeing now pictures of the workers who are still, at this late hour, finishing the digging of that gravesite. It will be inside the almost-destroyed compound that Yasser Arafat was essentially incarcerated for the last three years.

Leaders have decided to hold the actual so-called state funeral here in Cairo, because they do not want to go to Israeli-occupied land. And, of course, many of the Arab leaders have not made peace with Israel, although Israel has said that they would be welcome if they wanted to come to pay their final respects at the gravesite. But they've decided not to do that, and that's why the actual funeral with world leaders, most particularly Arab leaders, is being held in Cairo, Anderson.

COOPER: Christiane Amanpour, live from Cairo, thanks, Christiane.

It has been said that Yasser Arafat lived a soldier's life. He slept on a narrow bed, kept not much more than a couple of uniforms in his closet, and spent little on personal luxuries. In one important respect, though, he was not your average soldier. Yasser Arafat always kept a lot of cash on hand, and apparently elsewhere than on hand as well.

Finding his hidden millions may end up becoming a battle of raw politics.


COOPER (voice-over): There were no trappings, no visible perks, no pretensions. To the contrary, Yasser Arafat lived in a ruined compound on the West Bank, dressed humbly, to say the least. He was by all appearances as impoverished as his stateless Palestinian people.

And yet, the president of the Palestinian Authority may have been worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

BASSAM EYD, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Which, you know, makes the Palestinians so sick when they are hearing about such a huge amount of money.

COOPER: He did not leave a will, CNN has been told. This may account for the tug of war in the last week of Arafat's life between those who would succeed him and his wife, Suha, more than 30 years his junior, who didn't live with him, saw him rarely, and was disdained by many Palestinians as a spoiled socialite. To an Israeli observer, she had one card to play.

SHMUEL BAR, FORMER ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: What Suha wanted to do, apparently, was to get hold of the money, which was specifically in Arafat's name, because she, as his wife, of course, had a claim to part of it. And she knew that the only hold she has, actually, is, the leverage she has, is the body and the burial.

COOPER: Where did all the money come from? First, from oil-rich Arab states. And later on, after the Oslo peace accords, there were donations to the PLO from Europe and Japan and the U.S. And hundreds of millions of dollars came from Israel too, though not in the form of donations. These were sales taxes, levied on goods bought in Israel by Palestinians, deposited into an account Arafat maintained at a bank in Tel Aviv.

BAR: We actually gave Arafat the money on a personal basis.

COOPER: There's no doubt he gave some of that money to his wife, Suha, who lived in Paris. The question is, how much? Some Palestinian sources say about $100,000 a month.

Earlier this year, French prosecutors launched an investigation into the transfer of $11 million into two bank accounts held by Suha. Arafat personally controlled funds worth hundreds of millions of dollars as a form of political leverage. And he invested, too, in factories, cell phone companies, hotels, real estate.

Only two things seem certain, first, very little of that money, however much it was, ever got to the people Yasser Arafat represented. And, two, the money, however much it was, will be very hard to find.


COOPER: Indeed.

To Falluja now, where coalition leaders say that progress is being made, and the operation is ahead of schedule. But, clearly, this is dangerous and unpredictable business.

At nearly every mosque, troops find arms caches and roadside bomb factories. Insurgents are using schools for weapons storage. A "New York Times" reporter in Falluja says he witnessed 150 Marines pinned down for the better part of a day by a single sniper. It is the worst kind of fighting, close in, close up, and close call.

Brian Todd reports.


BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A wall is no cover if you are on the wrong side of it. In seconds, everything can change, from taking a defensive position to looking for an enemy who has disappeared or the lure he's left behind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Check them for booby traps.

TODD: Don't tell these guys the most dangerous insurgents have left Falluja. Here, every corner, pile of rubble, dark room, or rooftop could be the last thing you see.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watch out, watch out. Let me get a shot. Hold on. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)!

TODD: In one sequence, a cameraman is in the middle of an American unit taking fire in an alleyway. It's a tight cluster of buildings. The Americans at first can't tell if they are being targeted from eye level or above.



TODD: With the help of a spotter on an adjacent rooftop, the Americans think they've got a read on him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, he's in that garage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one right here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes, we got friendlies on the roof.




TODD: The Americans open up. More confusion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, is that friendlies on the roof?

TODD: Whoever they are looking for escapes the camera's eye in this sequence. The combat team keeps firing from behind walls and backed up against them.

Then a break -- maybe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, he's wounded, in between these two houses. I don't know how far down 3rd Squad is.

TODD: They blast into doorways and run in. We don't know if they found their attacker. We know they found weapons.

In other quadrants of the city, the fighting is only slightly more distant. Weapons stashes found everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have one RPG round, two mortar tubes, numerous (UNINTELLIGIBLE) AK-47-19s.

TODD: A captain relays his group's immediate orders, but might as well be speaking for all coalition units.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This area right here was templated to be an enemy stronghold, this whole industrial area. So we knew we were going to have to clear it building by building, street by street.

TODD: Or inch by inch.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.


(END VIDEOTAPE) COOPER: And at this moment, the fighting continues.

Now, with that kind of engagement, you would unfortunately expect some casualties. The latest figures released by the Pentagon show 18 U.S. and five Iraqi troops have been killed. More than 200 have been wounded. The military says some 600 insurgents have been killed.

Coming up next on 360, banning "Private Ryan." Why one of the greatest war movies ever made was pulled from the airwaves. Have TV stations gone too far censoring themselves?

Plus, big cover-up, or big myth? Rumors of election fraud. No doubt you've heard them all over the Internet. You are bombarding us with your e-mail about it. Tonight we're taking a closer look.

And Bill Cosby in his own words, and why he says he doesn't care what white people think. That's ahead.

But first, let's take a look at your picks, the most popular stories on right now.


COOPER: And welcome back to Los Angeles.

The World War II drama "Saving Private Ryan" may have earned his stripes at the box office. It grossed some $500 million worldwide. But that hasn't stopped some TV stations from deciding not to broadcast the film tonight on Veterans Day, because of fears the movie's language and violence could draw hefty new indecency fines from federal regulators.

Now, the film won five Oscars. But as CNN's Adaora Udoji reports, in today's climate, even Oscar isn't enough to save "Private Ryan" from being preempted.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire in the hole.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire in the hole.


ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ABC stations say they are pulling the acclaimed war film "Saving Private Ryan" for fear of running afoul of the FCC, one saying, quote, "We could face stiff fines and put our broadcast license in jeopardy."

The question is whether that worry is warranted. It is true Janet Jackson's breast-baring Super Bowl appearance triggered renewed FCC enforcement of decency standards. But the movie already has aired on television twice. BRENT BOZELL, MEDIA RESEARCH CENTER: There were complaints that were put forward to the FCC. The FCC dismissed those complaints. So the FCC is on record saying that this did not rise to the level of indecency...

UDOJI: Still, those supporting the ban could file a complaint, forcing the FCC to take another look.

RANDY SHARP, AMERICAN FAMILY ASSOCIATION: Our certain is with the indecent language, specifically the F-word and the S-word, which is illegal to air during prime-time hours.




UDOJI: It seems everyone agrees, the movie is a stellar fictional account of World War II. Some argue vehemently it should air on Veterans Day.

JACK VALENTI, FORMER PRESIDENT, MOTION PICTURE ASSOCIATION: I can't imagine in my wildest imaginings that the FCC would punish stations for showing this film. And I would hope that if the FCC had such leanings, they would visit the American cemetery in Normandy and see the graves of 9,387 young Americans who lost their lives.

UDOJI: A spokesman for the movie's director, Steven Spielberg, expressed surprise over the objections. He said the movie brings home the harsh realities of war.

It will air on ABC stations tonight, it's unclear how many. And network officials say, if it comes to FCC fines, ABC will pay them.

Adaora Udoji, CNN, New York.


COOPER: Well, a controversial figure will appear on our network tonight. Comedian Bill Cosby, long considered a safe, family-friendly icon, he stirred a lot of anger this summer with some of his speeches he made, in which he chastised poor African-Americans for not living up to their potential.

He explained himself to CNN's Paula Zahn.


PAULA ZAHN, HOST: And you don't really care who you tick off now, right? I mean, you've been accused of absolving white racism by some of your critics.

BILL COSBY, COMEDIAN: Well, you see, they misread that. When I say I don't care what white people think, I mean that. I mean, I am addressing my people, period. I am telling you, I want all this loud profanity in the street stopped. You've got to stop and think. I want the 55 percent dropout rate stopped, period. It's epidemic.

I want people to think about choices. I want you to begin to see yourself as somebody. I want you to stop doing things that are detrimental to your getting at least an education with a high school credential. I am talking to the people who are dropping out. I am talking to the people who are thinking about dropping out.


COOPER: Bill Cosby in his own words. The interview covers the controversy and beyond. You can catch it all tonight right after our show. Bill Cosby for the full hour on "PAULA ZAHN NOW."

360 next, that 9/11 conspiracy theory. We discussed it last night. The response from you was overwhelming. So tonight, we're going to take a closer look, the facts and the fiction, the truth and the lies, both sides make their case tonight.

Also ahead, kidnapping on tape. A woman literally grabbed in a parking lot, you see it there, thrown into the trunk of a car. More than half a dozen witnesses. They saw it and they did nothing to help.

And you've seen the supermodels in those magazines. Well, millions want to be like them, of course. But tonight, one model tells us the grim reality of what she did to stay thin, a 17-year diet so dangerous she had to have heart surgery.

All that ahead.

Also in a moment, today's 360 challenge. How closely have you been following today's news? We'll put you to the test.

We'll be right back.


COOPER: And we are, welcome back. We are live in Los Angeles.

You know, we all look at models in magazines and wish we looked like them or had bodies like them. But the truth is, not even they have those bodies. It's usually airbrushing.

And the ones who do have those bodies usually pay a very steep price. In a moment, you're going to meet Carrie Otis, a "Sports Illustrated" cover model who starved herself for years and nearly died because of it.

But first, CNN's Jason Bellini has a look at models and what some call their diet of deception, as we continue our series, Starved for Perfection: Thin at All Costs.


JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the runway, there's only room for the thin, the very thin, in some cases, the unnaturally thin. No one knows that better than Kate Dillon. She starved herself onto the magazine covers.

KATE DILLON, MODEL: I'd feel so guilty, like, for one day having a meal that I'd not eat for two days.

BELLINI: Caffeine and nicotine helped her keep her metabolism up and appetite down.

DILLON: Smoked, like, two or three packs a day. It was disgusting.

BELLINI: Her only consolation, she was not alone.

DILLON: I've met girls who I know have resorted to, you know, starving themselves, bulimia, you know, purging. They've used laxatives. They've used diuretics. They've abused narcotics, they've abused cocaine, they've -- You know, people will go to extremes, because it's an incredibly alluring profession.

BELLINI: Oz Garcia is a dietitian.

OZ GARCIA, CELEBRITY DIETITIAN: There are a percentage of models that do do this, that are going to overuse laxatives, overuse diuretics, go on starvation diets, fast, wind up being bulimic, smoking cigarettes too much, staying up late at night, thinking that not sleeping is going to help you cut back on your weight.

BELLINI: Dillon decided starving herself at all costs wasn't worth it.

DILLON: I said, You know what? I'm a big girl, but I am Kate, and that's going to have to be OK, no matter what happens.

BELLINI: She became a plus-size model. Today, she offers wannabe models a reality check.

DILLON: In order to be a skinny model, you have to be skinny. And for me, it was really, really difficult. I actually had an eating disorder. I'd go days without eating or just maybe eating, you know, an apple or something.

BELLINI (on camera): The reality is, some people were never meant to be superthin, even some models.

Jason Bellini, CNN, New York.


COOPER: Well, earlier, I spoke with Carrie Otis, the supermodel who nearly starved herself to death using extreme diets, exercise, eventually cocaine and heroin, to try to stay thin. Now, after gaining weight, she's living a much healthier lifestyle. And along with modeling, Carrie Otis is now a spokesperson for the National Eating Disorders Association.

I want to show you a picture of you in 1994, and you are so thin in it. What, you know, and people see that, and that's something that they want to be like that. What were you actually doing to yourself to look like that?

CARRIE OTIS, SUPERMODEL: I think at that point in my life, I was probably doing what most of the girls in the industry in terms of dieting down do. And it was really just not eating and not having the information, not understanding how a body works. And also there was just so much pressure. You know, if somebody said to you, Well, you've got to lose weight, you've got to be thinner than what you are, nobody said, OK, this is how you do it. So you're talking about really young kids...


OTIS: ... you know, in this industry.

COOPER: So to get that figure and maintain it, you would, I mean, on a daily basis, you would eat what?

OTIS: On a daily basis, I'd probably have salad, and then there was the theory of, you know, well, drink your calories. So you would have alcohol or some wine. But it was, for the most part, it was just eating very, very little and not nutritiously, and it was kind of a starvation diet.

COOPER: And did you feel pressure, I mean, from agents, from editors, from photographers to keep that going? I mean, were they supportive of that?

OTIS: They're -- it's not like anyone said, Well, just stop eating. Nobody said that. But they also sort of left you to your own devices about, whatever you need to do to get to that weight, that's what you are going to need to do.

COOPER: And yet, as unhealthy as you were, and as, I mean, you were starving yourself, you say, you were even more successful. I mean, you got the cover of "Sports Illustrated." What did you do to get to look like that? I understand you, I mean, worked out severely. You went on a really crash diet.

OTIS: And the workouts would have been very different had I, you know, also been taking care of myself in a, you know, in regards to nutrition. But still I was definitely working out. I mean, you call it, I think, you know, it's a form of anorexia, where it's just like, consistent, nonstop workouts. You don't feed or refuel your body enough.

So I was, I was working out excessively. I wasn't eating enough. And at that point, you know, my body, it really took a toll on my body.

COOPER: You ended up having to have heart surgery, because you, am I right, you had holes in your heart?

OTIS: Yes, I did. I ended up having to have heart surgery.

COOPER: And that's from, you think, malnutrition from, from?

OTIS: Years of malnutrition. I mean, this is, like, this is 17 years of malnutrition. Yes.

COOPER: As you look back on the you of that time, I mean, what do you see?

OTIS: What's so interesting is, I remember, you know, I'll look at a magazine and pick up a picture, and I remember thinking at that time, on that day, that I felt a certain way, which was not thin. You know, I felt fat. And I looked...

COOPER: Even when you were starving yourself...

OTIS: Even...

COOPER: ... even when you were on the cover of "Sports Illustrated"?

OTIS: Yes, you don't see it. When you're in that mentality, when you're in that mindset, you don't really see the reality before you. So for me, this point in my life I look back with a tremendous amount of compassion and a tremendous amount of understanding for what other women, other men go through who are, you know -- it's a very, you know, obsessed way to live. There's no freedom.

When there are expectations placed on an individual, and you are not normally going to fit into a certain size or, you know, you are going to do your damndest to fit into what people want until you have enough of yourself established to not really -- at this point in my life it's like, whatever. I come as I am and I am really comfortable in my life and I refuse to compromise my integrity and my sanity and my sense of well-being at this point.

COOPER: It seems like you're in a good place. Carrie Otis, thank you very much.

OTIS: Thank you very much.

COOPER: Tomorrow we're going to wrap up our series "Starved for Perfection" with the illusion of the airbrushed ideal. How those magazines create a beauty that's simply unattainable.

Coming up next on 360, 9/11 conspiracy theory. You saw it here first, wanted more. We have a debate live coming up, two sides.

Plus Internet rumors and e-mail campaigns, accusations of election fraud. Trying to get to the bottom of it all tonight. A lot ahead. Stay with us.


COOPER: We are live in Los Angeles. Tonight, we continue a discussion we began last night. It's about 9/11 and what really happened on that terrible day. Yesterday we told you about a millionaire named Jimmy Walter who has begun an advertising campaign suggesting a government conspiracy, a cover-up. Walter suggests that flight 77 never actually flew into the Pentagon and suggested 7 World Trade Center collapsed not as a result of the Twin Towers attack but because of sabotage. Here's a look at one of his ads.


AD ANNOUNCER: And no explanation for its collapse has been given. The collapse looks just like a typical demolition with explosives.


COOPER: We received a ton of e-mails about this story and many of you wanted to hear more. We want to present all sides in this program so to further explain his theories, joining me once again here in Los Angeles Jimmy Walter. Pleased to have you here. And back with us from Miami, a lawyer and investigator Gerald Posner. Author of "Why America Slept, The Reasons Behind Our Failure to Prevent 9/11." We appreciate both of you being with us.

Jimmy, let me start out with you. You believe that 7 World Trade Center was intentionally detonated from within, not destroyed by terrorists or as a result of the Twin Towers going down. Now last night Gerald said that burning debris from the other towers caused number 7 to really catch fire and the fuel stored within the building made the building eventually collapse. Why do you say that theory is impossible?

JIMMY W. WALTER, CREATOR OF REOPEN9/11.COM: If you look at the pictures of the collapse, you can see that there is no smoke in huge billowing clouds coming out of building 7. If there was a massive diesel fuel burning in the basement of that building, there would be huge clouds of smoke coming out. Two, diesel fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel. They found melted steel in the basement of that building. It had to have been done with explosives.

COOPER: And you think those explosives were set, you don't know who they were set by, according to your theory, but you think they were set by either someone who held the lease to the building or whom?

WALTER: I can't tell you who. I only know it takes two weeks to two months to set such explosives. It had to be an inside job. Whether Mr. Silverstein was directly responsible, I don't know, but in the film "America Rebuilds," Larry Silverstein says he told the New York Fire Department to pull the building. That is destroy it with explosives.

COOPER: So you think two months or so before 9/11, someone set explosives in that building with the knowledge that 9/11 was going to happen?

WALTER: At least two months ahead of time they had to start putting the explosives in those buildings. At least two weeks.

COOPER: OK, Gerald, you heard what Jimmy said. What do you think?

GERALD POSNER, AUTHOR, "WHY AMERICA SLEPT": Anderson, the most amazing thing about this is I keep asking the question, why World Trade Center 7? Do you know if you go on the street and stop 50 people, 49 of them will not even know that World Trade Center 7 collapsed? Do you think that this was part of a plot so we could invade Afghanistan and go to war for oil and somebody sat around a table with the deep dark secret government conspiracy and said, by the way, let's bring down the World Trade Centers, we'll kill a couple of thousand people, let's hit the Pentagon and by the way the American people won't be angry enough to go after the Taliban after that but also bring down World Trade Center 7. That will really do the trick. Boy, I'll tell you, I'm missing that one.

COOPER: He said there wasn't smoke. Was there smoke?

POSNER: Not only was there smoke as a matter of fact and the video can be seen. But it's exactly as he said. There was also twisted and burned steel at the bottom, which investigators found. But you know what, Anderson, I did a little bit of research overnight since our discussion last night. I think what Mr. Walters is not telling you, which is very interesting, he's not being straight with the American people. He has a P.R. company that's helping him do these ads. So he's making two points. The Pentagon wasn't hit by a plane and World Trade Center 7 was imploded by explosives inside. But ask him a question...

WALTER: This man has not stated a single fact. All he has done is attack me. Does he not have any facts?


COOPER: OK, Jimmy, go ahead.

WALTER: The ads clearly show not enough smoke for what he's talking about.

POSNER: Mr. Walter, I have to ask you, wasn't -- you believe and correct me if I'm wrong...

WALTER: We're talking about building 7.

POSNER: World Trade Center 1 and 2, the big two towers, the 110- story buildings were also not brought down by the planes that hit them but you say (UNINTELLIGIBLE) there were only explosives inside?

COOPER: Jimmy, do you believe they were brought down by planes?

WALTER: Yes. No, I believe they were brought down by explosives. If you look at the pictures of the building comes down you can see...

COOPER: Wait. World Trade Center 1 and 2, the main towers. You don't believe?

WALTER: They were brought down with explosives. They were hit by planes but they were brought down by explosives.

POSNER: And Anderson, why do you think he hasn't put those in his ads that he's running in New York? Because he knows that that will show how far-fetched this theory is.


WALTER: He is attacking my character without presenting a single fact. The facts are that you can see steel beams flying straight out from the side of those buildings at about hundreds of miles an hour that could happen except with explosives...

POSNER: Mr. Walter...

WALTER: see powdered concrete that could not happen except by explosives.

COOPER: OK, Gerald reply...

POSNER: Mr. Walter, if I could just ask you one thing. You've also said not only that the 19 hijackers were screw-ups but you've said that you believe that Osama bin Laden, head of al Qaeda, and Bush could be patsies. Isn't that true?

WALTER: I believe they both could be patsies.

POSNER: To who? So who pulled that off?

WALTER: I thought we were talking about building 7?

COOPER: I got to -- all these theories are pretty interesting. And do sort of get to the main point of your credibility. But Jimmy, you also said, you also think the Pentagon wasn't hit by flight 77 because you say the hole in the Pentagon was too small. Yesterday Gerald said the hole was small because the plane's trajectory caused the plane's wings to disintegrate and that the Pentagon's more fortified than the World Trade Towers. I wanted you to be able to respond to what he said. Why do you think that's not true?

WALTER: Because there are no marks on the wings on the building. If you look at the hole, the engines, each of those engines weighs four to five tons, it's the heaviest and densest part of the aircraft. It's perched out on the wing. That engine should have produced a hole. It did not collapse up into the center hole. Furthermore, the engine should have penetrated further than the main fuselage since they are denser and heavier than the main fuselage.

COOPER: Jimmy, you are an expert in this. Jimmy how -- are you -- your background is in like in prison reform. I mean, you are basically a millionaire who inherited a lot of money. You are not a structural engineer, you're not an expert in this are you?

WALTER: I have hired structural engineers. We had them on my show in New York City, that verified every part of this.

COOPER: Gerald, what...

WALTER: I have a $10,000 award to anyone who can give me a full blown mathematical proof of how the twin towers collapsed from fire and that impact, $10,000 reward. (CROSSTALK)

POSNER: I'll be submitting that. I hope to get my $10,000 for that.

WALTER: I have it up right now. I'm going to write the check.

POSNER: A question for you.

WALTER: I want you to be able to respond to what he said.

POSNER: The question on the Pentagon, which I am still not clear. What about the dozens of witnesses outside the Pentagon who saw the plane fly into the building?

Are your saying that all those people are part of a conspiracy.

WALTER: Those dozens of witnesses said it was a commuter aircraft. We have at least four witnesses who said it wasn't big enough to be an airliner.

COOPER: And Jimmy...


WALTER: ... that is all over the Internet. You can see all of this stuff. He is bringing up stuff that is totally irrelevant?

POSNER: Irrelevant? Eyewitness testimony, how could that be irrelevant?

COOPER: And Jimmy just so...

WALTER: Because we have an eyewitness that said it was a commuter plane and not a 757. He doesn't want to hear that the eyewitnesses said it was not a 757.

POSNER: If I saw a plane crash into a building, I could tell you it was a plane, that's what all the witnesses say. But if you asked me what it was, I couldn't tell the difference between a 707 and a...


WALTER: Now the eyewitnesses don't know what they said.

COOPER: We wanted to...

WALTER: Which side are you on, do the eyewitnesses know or do they not? The eyewitnesses said it was a commuter sized airplane.

COOPER: All right. All right. We appreciate -- we want to give you both sides to talk more in detail about that, and we've done that. And we really do appreciate it.

Jimmy Walter, appreciate you being on.

WALTER: Thank you, Anderson, it's been great.

COOPER: And Gerald Posner, thank you very much for being on as well. And appreciate the research you did last night.

We've also received a lot e-mail about allegations of voter fraud from last week's election. On the Internet, there are many claiming that ballot tallies were screwed perhaps toward the president. So, the question is, are these runaway imaginations, people unwilling to admit defeat or is there really an election conspiracy?

I'm not sure he'll find all the answers, but CNN's Dan Lothian begins tonight to take a look.


DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's all the buzz on the Internet, that the 2004 election was fraught with fraud. Conspiracy theories abound. "Grand Theft America" screams this blog. They're fueled in part by Florida. Some small, mostly Democratic counties went overwhelmingly for Bush. But experts say the so-called Dixie Democrats have consistently voted Republican for president.

In Cuyahoga County, Ohio, one city recorded more than 18,000 ballots cast, even though there were only 13,000 plus registered voters -- fraud. Well, officials say it was a typo. 18,472 should have read 8,472.

In Columbus, President Bush received 4,000 extra votes because of a mistake by an electronic voting system. Officials say it was an isolated incident but are investigating statewide.

And finally, Carteret County, North Carolina, where 4,500 votes were lost when an electronic machine prematurely reached capacity. Officials say it was a glitch that won't impact the presidential race, but could impact a tight state race.

ED POND, CARTERET CO. BOARD OF ELECTIONS: The company has admitted now that it was their error and that it was a sample keystroke that should have been applied.

LOTHIAN: Some are concerned technology may be hiding other secrets.

BRUCE SCHNELER, E-VOTE CRITIC: Without the audit, without the paper ballots, we don't know what other problems happened.

LOTHIAN (voice-over): Audits and investigations of election 2004 are currently being conducted by various independent organizations. Many experts seem to agree that while the system may not be perfect, the election was fair based on what is now known.

Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.


COOPER: Well, 360 next, a woman kidnapped in a mall parking garage thrown in the trunk of a car and the witnesses do nothing.

We're going to talk with an investigator on the case.

And in a moment, today's "360 Challenge."

How closely have you been following today's news? We'll find out next.


COOPER: Time now for today's "360 Challenge." Be the first to answer all three questions correctly, you'll get a 360 T-shirt.

No. 1, how old was Yasser Arafat when he died?

No. 2, one city in Cuyahoga County, Ohio recorded some 18,000 ballots -- recorded some 18,000 ballots. They were cast, but only how many voters actually registered?

"Saving Private Ryan" won how many Oscars?

All right. To take the "Challenge," log on to, then click on the answer link. Answer first, we'll send you the shirt.

Find out last night's "Challenge" winner and tonight's answers coming up.


COOPER: As you watch this next story think to yourself what you would do if you saw someone being abducted. For bystanders in a California mall parking garage on Sunday night, the answer was simple and very disturbing. They did nothing, except to watch as a woman was kidnapped and thrown into the trunk of a car.

CNN, Thelma Gutierrez, has more.


THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Discount mall in Corona, California, a woman appears to be abducted from this parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our victim here.

GUTIERREZ: The chilling scene is caught on tape by security cameras.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can visually see the vehicle pull up behind her.

GUTIERREZ: In the tape you see a young woman walking in the parking lot with more than a half dozen shoppers around her. A car pulls up. The woman looks back and begins to run as fast as she can across the parking lot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Catches her right about here. Grabs her in a bear hug.

GUTIERREZ: The man throws her over his shoulder and shoves her into the trunk of the car and then speeds away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know from one of the store clerks that she was actually screaming for help for someone to call the police.

GUTIERREZ (on camera): But Corona County, California Police say none of the shoppers who were nearby either called them or came to her aid. The call to 911 was placed by a mall security guard who witnessed what detectives say appears to be a kidnapping. But that's where investigators say their trail goes cold. They have not identify the young woman or the suspects and they say they have no reports of a missing person who matches her description.

(voice-over): The woman appears to be in her late teen or early 20s. She has a medium build and was last seen wearing jeans, a hooded sweatshirt and a white tee shirt. Police say the suspect vehicle is a newer black two-door hatch back, probably a Toyota Solara with a spare right front tire.

Thelma Gutierrez, CNN, Los Angeles.


COOPER: Let's get the latest on the case now. I'm joined by, from Corona, police Lieutenant Eddie Garcia.

As to why eyewitnesses didn't try to stop it, I'm joined from New York by Bruce Weinstein.

Appreciate both of you joining us.

Lieutenant, let me start off with you. What's the latest on the case, any new leads?

LT. EDDIE GARCIA, CORONA POLICE DEPT.: At this point, we have no leads at all. We're waiting to see from some assistance from some other groups on enhancing the tape to see if we get a license number. But basicly, we've just gotten a few phone calls from the community trying to give us some information with the vehicle description that we've given out.

COOPER: Do you know who this woman is at all?

GARCIA: No, sir. We have no concept of who she is, nor do we know who the suspect is. The only basis of information that we have is by the video. And also that the vehicle has a tire, the spare tire in the right front passenger side. That's the only information we've gather.

COOPER: We enhanced the surveillance video, and clearly as soon as the woman first sees the car, she starts to run. Do you think she recognized her kidnappers, or her apparent kidnappers?

GARCIA: That's what we believe, the possibility that she did know them. Because if you look at the video, she looks to her left and over her shoulder as if she's looking for the vehicle as it approaches and then begins to run.

COOPER: Bruce Weinstein, what's particularly disturbing about this case, people saw the woman running, they heard her screaming apparently, and yet it seems they didn't do anything. Does that surprise you?

BRUCE WEINSTEIN, ETHICIST: It is outrageous for anyone to be in a position to help someone else and to do nothing. I mean, we know from the Katie Genovese case, 50-odd years ago, that a lot of people who observed someone who was being stabbed to death did nothing, and we would like to think we've advanced since then. But what this case shows that so many of us are so wrapped up in our own problems and our own thoughts that we simply can't get outside of ourselves and help another human being. From a moral point of view, it is just simply outrageous.

COOPER: Well, you know, I have heard some call it the bystander effect that they think somebody else is going to take care of it. Is that valid do you think? Do you think that's a valid explanation?

WEINSTEIN: It might explain the behavior but certainly doesn't justify it. This is not one of those moral issues where there can be a legitimate debate, on one side people saying, yes, I had a good reason not to do anything, and other people saying, you should have done something. There is no just no justification for doing nothing.

Now, if there's a perceived threat to the onlookers, they could have at least called someone on their cell phone, called the police, called 911. But they did nothing. In fact, as you mentioned in this, they still have done nothing. And I hope what this show will do is encourage someone to come forward and tell police what they saw, because the assailants are still at large and it's wrong. It's simply outrageous.

COOPER: We'll continue to follow the case, Lieutenant Eddie Garcia, appreciate you joining us. I know it's a busy night for you. And Bruce Weinstein in New York, thanks for joining us as well.

Ahead on 360, the 360 Challenge. Here's another look at tonight's questions. Have you been paying attention? Log on to Click on the answer link to play.


COOPER: Time for the answers to the 360 Challenge.

How old was Yasser Arafat when he died? The answer is 75.

In one city in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, some 18,000 ballots were cast when only how many were registered? 13,000.

Saving Private Ryan won how many Oscars? Five.

The first person to answer all three questions correctly will be sent a 360 shirt. Tune in tomorrow to find out if you're the lucky one.

Last night's winner, Avani Kanojia from Sugarland, Texas. Congratulations, another 360 Challenge, another chance to win, tomorrow.

And 360 next, remembering the valor of Americans veterans. We take that to the Nth Degree.


COOPER: Tonight, taking remembrance to the Nth Degree.

It's been a long time since we marked a Veterans Day on which Americans soldiers were actually in harms way. That was during Desert Storm in 1990. And here again, our troops are deployed in the very same part of the world. It seems strange at first, until you think what an impossibly long shadow wars always seem to cast.

After all, Veteran's Day commemorates a conflict that ended at the 11 hour of the 11 day of the 11 month in 1918. A war living men and women remembered and remembered well when its embers burst back into flame a generation later in a Second World War, which Second World War made this country a superpower and made, and then ultimately unmade the Soviet Union.

There are still veterans of that war among us and of Korea and Vietnam and the Persian Gulf. They go where they are sent and inevitably, some of them do not come back.

We live in a world that began being made by veterans in 1918. One day a year to remember them and say thanks doesn't really seem enough.

I'm Anderson Cooper. Thanks for watching. Coming up next "PAULA ZAHN NOW."


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