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American Morning

Crowds Storm Helicopter Carrying Arafat's Coffin; Arafat's Body Arrives to Emotional Greeting in West Bank

Aired November 12, 2004 - 07:30 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: We are watching pictures of this -- it looks like a Jeep or some kind of SUV or something. It's trying to get close to the helicopter.
FAWAZ GERGES, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Michael Holmes has been watching all of this for us and really is providing these incredible pictures for us.

Michael, I'm going to bring you back in. We're back at the half- hour here on AMERICAN MORNING. Set the stage for us again for those who might just joining us. Arafat's helicopter, the helicopter containing the body of Yasser Arafat has landed in Ramallah.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, it has. Two helicopters somehow managed to land here among this sea of people.

What happens, Soledad, for those just joining, is that this whole area was meant to be completely empty of average Palestinians, if you like, the ordinary people. They were meant to come and see the tomb of Yasser Arafat later on this evening, a couple of hours from now. Well, as you can see, it didn't work out that way.

They poured into this compound, over the walls, through holes in the walls, just basically forced their way in. Once the helicopters landed, as we feared, they have swarmed the helicopters.

Now, what is going on here, we believe, was that they were making way for that vehicle to maybe take the casket of Yasser Arafat to the vehicle. To move that casket by hand would simply not work. And I said earlier that it reminds me of the scene that we saw with the funeral of the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran, where the body was simply mobbed by people. And the level of emotion here is such that that would likely happen here as well.

So they're trying to clear a pathway here to unload people and the body of Yasser Arafat. There are dignitaries here, foreign ministers from several countries in those helicopters. And they want to get them out and get them out safely.

What's interesting is pathways being formed, various pathways being formed now through this crowd by security forces. And also it must be said, Palestinians themselves, who appear to be self-policing the lines to try to keep some sort of way open for people to get out. And you can see there a military band actually doing its bit to clear the way as well. So they're trying to open the door to this helicopter at this stage. It's proving impossible.

Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashwari is standing next to me witnessing this, too. She's meant to be down there, believe it or not. Needless to say, she couldn't leave our live shot location because of this crowd.

Hanan, what do you make of it?

HANAN ASHWARI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: Well, I think it's just so overwhelming. The people are themselves overwhelmed and the situation is overwhelming. And the emotions are running so high that it's very difficult to see any kind of control.

But now, as you said, there is some self-discipline, because they're making pathways in order to allow for the unloading of the coffin. And I think you will see it come down soon, because the doors are being opened.

However, it's really a popular funeral. I think people are laying claim to their president in death the way they did in life, and they feel cheated out of his real funeral. And so this has become a sort of popular claim and the popular outpouring of emotion.

HOLMES: And a literal one as we watch these extraordinary pictures -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Yes, I have to say, you know, Michael, as you said before the helicopter landed, you said, well, it wouldn't be possible, and I completely concurred with you. And then, of course, we saw it land. We saw two of them land. And we keep saying it's not going to be possible to bring this body out in a crowd like this with the AK- 47s going. And yet it seems that they're opening the doors and they're rolling out a red carpet.

Again, how does this end? What happens? Do you think that they're just going to, because of the amount of respect that the people have for Yasser Arafat, in truth, no one is going -- nothing bad is going to happen?

GERGES: Not at all. Not at all. I think this is really the Palestinian people are expressing their love and their emotions for their leader. Yasser Arafat became synonymous with the Palestinian cause. He put the Palestinian cause on the world map. He himself, he says the Palestine cause is my wife. And even though he was corrupt, even though that he was incompetent, even though he not establish state institutions, in the eyes of most Palestinians he symbolizes, you might say, a potent symbol of their hopes and aspirations. And the Palestinians are saying, "Welcome home, our leader."

O'BRIEN: How much of it is "welcome home, our leader" and an expression of love, and how much is it fear that there is a power vacuum now?

GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, Soledad, this is really the critical point we were trying to say earlier is that I think this particular -- the death of Arafat comes at a very painful and very difficult moment for the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are facing some very existential challenges in the next few months and months. They have to reform their dormant institutions. Their institutions, of course, are in tatters. Of course, they have to engage in peace talks with the Palestinians. Their towns and cities are under occupation again. Unemployment is 65 percent, 80 percent of Palestinians in Gaza are below the poverty line, on less than $2.

Palestinians are terrified. Where do we go from here? Even Mahmoud Abbas has emerged, as you might say, the nominal leader of the Palestinians. He said, we face international isolation and, in fact, isolation in the Arab world. We must reclaim the moral high ground.

Palestinians are terrified, are anxious. They are at a loss. They lost their fatherly figure. Soledad, Yasser Arafat to Palestinians was a fatherly figure. They feel orphaned today. And given the political and economic situations, they're terrified of the future.

O'BRIEN: John Vause joins us by phone. He is there as well with a different perspective, a different location as well.

John, good morning. Thanks. Tell me what you're seeing. And what you're seeing now are some channels are opening up. As we heard Hanan Ashrawi referring to sort of self-policing, people maybe calming down, opening up some ways to get this casket, frankly, out of the helicopter through these channels and to the burial site.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Soledad. We've seen the security forces here try for quite some time now to clear that crowd. At one point, they moved a vehicle in trying to cut a path so they can remove the coffin from the helicopter. I think it's Saeb Erakat, who is the chief Palestinian negotiator, at the door of the helicopter who is asking -- or yelling at people to move away from the helicopter.

It does appear, though, at this stage that the security forces, the Palestinian security forces, are having a little bit of luck in moving these people back. But it has surely been an extraordinary scene. As this helicopter touched down in Ramallah, they were yelling, "Welcome home, welcome home, old man," as Yasser Arafat was known to thousands and thousands of Palestinians here.

But still, you would not say this is mass hysteria. It certainly is an emotional scene. And it looks as if the dignitaries, the officials on that Egyptian helicopter, are now negotiating with the crowd, trying and pleading with them to move away, to give this moment some dignity for Yasser Arafat, for this final service when he will be laid to rest in his compound.

It does appear that it may be calming down a little, but we can still hear the gunfire, the gunshots, which are ringing out from not just inside the compound, but from outside the compound as well. Automatic gunfire ringing out continually ever since the helicopter touched down -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: John, you know, you mentioned the sort of negotiations that we can see from the door of the helicopter to try to talk the crowd into backing up and getting out of the way. It kind of reminds you of screaming into the wind, because these two men -- and I believe one of them is Saeb Erakat, as you mentioned, the lead Palestinian negotiator, trying to back, with the wave of his hand, all of these -- excuse me -- thousands of people who have now gathered and who, frankly, have no intention of backing up, because they have come out to see Yasser Arafat and be part of the burial.

People had been told, I understand, John, that they could come by and visit, pay their respects, but not until after 6:00 local time, well after the ceremony was over. And obviously they really weren't listening to that, right?

VAUSE: That's right, Soledad. In fact, when this all started happening, when the thousands of people started climbing over the walls, breaching the walls, climbing onto the building, every one was saying, well, why didn't they think this was going to happen? I guess because it's been such a muted response to Yasser Arafat's, first his ill health, and then his departure from the compound two weeks ago. When he left, there was only a small crowd here. Palestinians have not been holding vigils here in Ramallah. It's been a very guarded response, if you like.

And even yesterday when word came out that Yasser Arafat had died, thousands did take to the streets, but certainly nothing like this. It seems this is the moment that the Palestinians had been waiting for.

While they were told they would have their opportunity to pay their respects to Arafat, once the official ceremony was over, it seems that tens of thousands of people were not prepared to wait for that, and this is the result. And as you say, these dignitaries, these officials at the helicopters, we can see they're waving their arms trying to push these people back. So it does seem that this...

O'BRIEN: We're told that that's the Palestinian minister of culture. And you're right. I mean, these high-ranking elected officials -- and Fawaz Gerges is again with us -- in some ways it seems completely futile. I mean, he's waving his hands back.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Thousands of people are not going to take a couple of steps back in order to allow this casket to come out of this helicopter.

GERGES: Yes. I mean, you have tens of thousands of young men who would like to take a look at their leader.

O'BRIEN: And yet? You know what? They're bringing it out anyway.

GERGES: And it's coming out. It's coming out. O'BRIEN: You're looking at live pictures from Ramallah in the West Bank. This is inside the compound of Yasser Arafat. Let's listen to the crowd as his casket is being brought from the helicopter to its burial site.

GERGES: It's a very emotional, very moving moment for the Palestinians, giving his blood and soul, we sacrifice Arafat.

O'BRIEN: It is amazing to think that they are, in fact, by hand...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... going to walk this casket. As Michael Holmes pointed out for us, not a very long distance from this helicopter to the burial site, but when you consider -- and I think you're right, guessing at the number of people.

GERGES: This is really dignity. I mean, look at them. I mean, they're allowing the casket to move forward. I mean, they're expressing their emotions, but yet with dignity. They're not harming the casket. They're not...

O'BRIEN: This is a remarkable sight as the body of Yasser Arafat is being handed...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... in some places carried and then passed over hand- by-hand through this crowd to get to his burial site. And as you mentioned, highly emotional.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: And Michael Holmes, I think, said that as well. And yet at the same time, calm, at this point.

GERGES: Yes, absolutely. And I think what really gives this particular scene an added element is the fact this is -- I mean, his headquarters. He was imprisoned there for almost three years. So it has an added symbolic value for many Palestinians. He's not just coming home to his home Palestine. He's coming home to his prison in the last three years. And I think Palestinians are expressing their grief and pain and solidarity with their leader who spent three years under house arrest.

O'BRIEN: We still have John Vause by phone.

John, we are looking at a tight shot of this casket as it makes its way, frankly, amazingly I think, through the crowd, considering just the sheer number of people who are there. Give me a sense of what the reaction is outside of just emotional. It looks like there is some violence. We see some pushing and shoving with some these security forces.

VAUSE: Yes, thousand of people are here, Soledad. And obviously the object here is to try and touch the coffin. We can see the security forces now climbing on. These actually look like members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, rather, who have climbed on. I can't be certain. But this is not what they would have wanted to have happened, but certainly an image which will be shown around the world as members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, I think, climb onto Arafat's coffin as it makes its way to the burial site. Quite extraordinary, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: I don't even think that comes close to describing it.

GERGES: What they're saying is "our souls with our blood, we sacrifice for you, our leader, Arafat." They're screaming, the crowd is shouting.

O'BRIEN: And tell me a little bit about the Al-Aqsa Brigade, as we see. And I believe that John is correct in describing...

GERGES: Yes, absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... that these are members...

GERGES: Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade.

O'BRIEN: ... not the security force.

GERGES: Not at all. I mean, you have -- of course, you have the Palestinian Authority, and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade is a militant organization, informally affiliated with Fatah, Fatah being the largest political faction. And Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, as you know, has been engaged in a political and violent struggle against Israel.

O'BRIEN: So when people, the Palestinians, and also the international audience, is watching this now, this coffin of Yasser Arafat, and on top the militant wing...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... connected to the PLO.

GERGES: I mean, this is...

O'BRIEN: What does that say?

GERGES: I think Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade is what I call the militant generation. They're trying to reclaim the legacy of Yasser Arafat. They're trying not only the old guard, he's not just the legacy for the old guard. He is also we own Yasser Arafat. And I think it's not a very positive message at all. In many ways, it reflects the tensions and the divisions and the contradictions in Palestinian society and within Fatah as well.

O'BRIEN: It is remarkable to me that this coffin is moving at the speed it is...

GERGES: Yes. O'BRIEN: ... when you consider the thousands of people who are out here, all, as John pointed out, with the goal of reaching out and touching Yasser Arafat's coffin...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... as it moves by. I should mention that we're being told that they're trying to move the coffin inside to a conference hall...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... inside to the Muqataa. Or they've moved the coffin to...

GERGES: The Muqataa, yes. The Muqataa is his headquarters in one of the buildings.

O'BRIEN: Exactly. And I'm told that that coffin is actually moving quickly because it's on a Jeep now.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: They've somehow managed to plow their way through.

GERGES: I think, Soledad, you also -- I mean, you can imagine the crowd is not trying to really obstruct or harm or damage. I think they're trying to express their emotions and passions for their leader. It's a highly-emotional, highly-passionate moment. This organized chaos is, of course, disorderly, but these are the facts of Palestinian life and politics these days.

O'BRIEN: In the short-term, just the trying to -- the logistics of trying to get this coffin off this Jeep and into the building, one has to imagine if all of these people could breach the walls of the compound...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... then they're easily going to be able to overrun the compound and go inside, if they so choose.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: Is that something that you would predict?

GERGES: Well...

O'BRIEN: Or do you think the respect for Yasser Arafat among the Palestinian people will keep anything that's emotional sort of bleeding into violence?

GERGES: Oh, absolutely. And I think we have seen it. Even though it's chaotic, even though it's symbolic, even though it's disorderly, I think they have shown a great deal of respect and dignity. They are moving, of course, very passionately, very emotionally, but yet no violence. No violence. No major -- you might say any major crisis emerging. You could imagine now the crowd of tens of thousands of people what could happen.

O'BRIEN: Who fills this void then? Who is the person who comes forward...

GERGES: No one.

O'BRIEN: ... and generates this much passion? No one. There is no one.

GERGES: No, Soledad, there is no one who could fill Yasser Arafat's shoes. And this is why elections, national elections, are the only mechanism, the only way forward for the Palestinians. Because any Palestinian leader that emerges must have a popular mandate. The shadow of Arafat, I mean, will remain there for many months and many years. And this is why any Palestinian leadership must have a popular, legitimate mandate from the people.

O'BRIEN: But as we see with the members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, as we're seeing right there, they're the ones waving some of the weapons...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... and sort of managed to push the coffin through on that Jeep, what person do you see in the leadership, in the cabinet, who could take the reins and deal with the terrorist elements within the PLO?

GERGES: I think you have two particular, what I call, two divisions. On the one hand, you have the old guard, the old guard that is Mahmoud Abbas and Ahmed Qorei. They have emerged as the two major leaders who might or could succeed Yasser Arafat. And you have, as you said, the militant generation, the generation of Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade.

And this is why you need to have elections. You need to have elections not only to provide the Palestinian -- the new Palestinian leadership with a popular mandate in order to move forward on the question of reforming Palestinian institutions and, of course, engaging Israeli peace negotiators. And this is why I think the next few months are going to prove to be very vital, vital for the new leadership, because unless, unless national elections take place, no Palestinian leader could claim a mandate to at least act and move forward.

O'BRIEN: Does having a mandate make a difference...

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... when you're dealing...

GERGES: Oh, absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ...when you are dealing with the violent elements within the -- I mean, frankly, do the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, does Hamas really care about an election?

GERGES: They will compete. They will compete. They will compete in elections, Hamas and Jihad.

O'BRIEN: And if they lose?

GERGES: They will lose. Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: And if they lose?

GERGES: And I think this is why I think any Palestinian leadership that emerges must have a blueprint, a political blueprint; that is, the Palestinians really must not only just put their house in order, must now put forward on the table a new paradigm, a new, you might say, vision for peace, political, political struggle must replace military and violent struggle.

Hamas and Jihad's tactics have done a great deal of damage, Soledad, to the Palestinian cause. And a new leadership, an elected new leadership must move forward with a new blueprint and find. If Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade do not accept this particular vision, they must be confronted, because the new Palestinian leadership will have a mandate from the people.

O'BRIEN: Let's explain for folks what they are looking at. This is inside the Ramallah compound of Yasser Arafat, and that throng of people have surrounded the casket, which is sort of in the middle of your screen right now. They are trying to move that casket into a main conference hall, because they're moving toward a burial this afternoon. We are told that the people who are on top of that casket and rolling it though on the Jeep, I believe, that's moving through that crowd, are members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, the more militant wing, if you will, connected to the PLO.

We've been talking with Fawaz Gerges of Sarah Lawrence College. He is a Middle East expert.

We talked earlier with the former secretary of state, Madeleine Albright.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: And she said, bluntly, to a blunt question about whether or not the Middle East is better off without Yasser Arafat.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: That, yes, she thinks that now is the time that peace can move forward because he is gone. Is there any element of the Palestinian population that would agree -- even in their grief, even in their respect for the Palestinian leader, would say, yes, he was standing in the way of peace, and he was standing in the way of making the lives better for the Palestinian people?

GERGES: Well, I mean, I think this is a very good question, because I think in the United States and in Israel now there is a particular paradigm, Soledad, that Arafat was the major impediment to peace-making between Palestinians and the Israelis. This is not how Palestinians see it. This is not how Arabs and Muslims see it.

In fact, they argue even if Arafat, I mean, leaves the scene today, will the Israeli prime minister move forward and put his own vision the table? Will Ariel Sharon find any particular, any Palestinian leader who would accept Sharon's vision for peace? And what is Sharon's vision for peace of that if Palestinians take on less than 60 percent of the occupied Palestinian land?

O'BRIEN: But doesn't that bring us back to what was turned down back in 2000, which seemed like a wonderful deal to many people and crushed members certainly of the U.S. delegation that felt that they were able to bring the Israelis to the table with a good offer? And it was Yasser Arafat who at the critical moment said I've changed my mind, we're not going to move forward?

GERGES: Soledad, there are different narratives on what happened at Camp David. I think the big question on the table now is the following: The Palestinian leadership must put its house in order, must move forward and have a popular legitimate popular mandate, must chart a new course, a new course based on political struggle, not a military struggle, and all Palestinian factions and groups must be integrated into the political process. And even if Hamas and Jihad would like to participate in the political process will come on one condition: Participation requires responsibilities and duties. Hamas and Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade should no longer be able to sabotage and undermine the Palestinian and the Israeli peace process.

O'BRIEN: But it's going to take a certain leader who can manage that.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: I mean, obviously, it's one thing to say...

GERGES: Naturally.

O'BRIEN: ... to these terrorists...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... or elements put down your weapons and join us at the table and another to actually make it happen.

GERGES: And this is why, Soledad, I think what we -- this is why what I'm suggesting is that national elections, which are supposed to take place in 60 days, are critical. Are critical.

Why they're critical, for just our American audience? They're critical because they provide the new Palestinian leadership with legitimacy, they invest legitimacy, and also enable the Palestinian leadership to move forward on the domestic scene. How could Mahmoud Abbas or Ahmed Qorei, as you said, control Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade or Hamas or Jihad without a popular mandate? A popular mandate tells us that Hamas that Abbas and the rest of the Palestinian Authority could stand up and say, listen, the people have spoken. You must accept the consensus of the people. Military struggle is not taking the Palestinians anywhere at this particular moment. Political struggle and civil disobedience are the only ways forward. And this...

O'BRIEN: It seems that you're painting a picture of a huge opportunity at this point, frankly...

GERGES: Yes, actually there is...

O'BRIEN: ... with the death of Yasser Arafat. Now do you truly believe that if there are elections and if it is, in fact, Mahmoud Abbas who walks away the victor, that he can have that kind of a dialogue with the terrorists?

GERGES: Oh, absolutely.

O'BRIEN: And that would stop the suicide bombings?

GERGES: In 2003, Mahmoud Abbas was the prime minister. As you know, he was appointed. He succeed in establishing a cease-fire between Hamas and the Israelis. These are facts. A popular...

O'BRIEN: Which then fell apart.

GERGES: Absolutely. A popular mandate would enable the Palestinian leadership to begin the difficult, dangerous and risky journey. No one is suggesting it's going to be easy. It will messy, risky, difficult and complex.

And Soledad, the point is here, without American leadership, without the personal intervention of the president of the United States, the peace process will not move forward.

O'BRIEN: What does President Bush have to do right now? Obviously, as you've seen, who has been sent as part of the U.S. delegation to pay their final respects...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... it's not a high-ranking member of cabinet.

GERGES: Not at all. Not at all.

O'BRIEN: So what do you think President Bush needs to do now to take advantage of this opportunity?

GERGES: Yes. We know what he did not do. In the last four years President Bush did not invest political capital in Palestinian- Israeli negotiations. It was not his priority. He made it very clear. It's about time that the president personally not only sends a third-ranking official, gets involved in the peace process.

Soledad, we, some of us who work on Middle East politics and American foreign policy, know without presidential intervention, presidential intervention I'm talking on the part of the president, peace process does not move forward. And not only, you not only have to pressure the Palestinians, the Palestinians need time and space now in order to show their people they can really deliver the goods.

President Bush must not give Ariel Sharon a cart blanche, as he has done in the last three years. It's about time that we, the United States, exert pressure on both sides. On both sides.

O'BRIEN: Do you think -- and some reports say -- that the president is considering a special envoy that would deal with peace?

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: And do you think that that goes far enough when you talk about the pressure from the president? Or does it need to be a bigger hand on the part of the president?

GERGES: I think the president himself should be calling the leaders, should be investing. Look what President Clinton did. He educated himself on the peace process. He spent time and energy, political capital. And this president tells us now he has earned political capital. Let's hope that President Bush invests some of this precious political capital in nudging Palestinians and Israelis into the negotiating table.

Because, Soledad, as you said, there is a small window of opportunity. On the one hand, you have a new dynamic Palestinian leadership emerging or likely to emerge out of these particular elections. Now you have an Israeli prime minister who can no longer say, Yasser Arafat is my demon. He is the impediment to peace. You have an American president who is the second mandate.

O'BRIEN: There was a report in "The New York Times" that says that President Bush might turn to Europe and look for more participation among European leaders.

GERGES: Wonderful. Wonderful.

O'BRIEN: So who do you seen then stepping forward?

GERGES: Well, I mean, as you know, Tony Blair has made...

O'BRIEN: He's going to be head of the G8. He'll be the head of the European Union.

GERGES: You're absolutely correct. And in the last few months, Tony Blair has made it very clear the Palestinian-Israel conflict is the most fundamental vital issue in world peace.

And Soledad, if we talk about American diplomacy, if we talk the American war on terror, if we talk about winning the hearts and minds of Arabs and Muslims, is there a better place for this president, the U.S. president to start? If he is genuine about -- I mean, you might say hammering a deadly nail.

O'BRIEN: So victory you mean in negotiating some kind of a deal between the Palestinians and the Israelis...

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... you think has a direction connection with what's happening, let's say, in Falluja today?

GERGES: A vital, direct connection to America's relations -- I mean, with (INAUDIBLE). The Arab-Israeli conflict is the most fundamental critical issue in relations, Soledad, between American foreign policy and Arabs and Muslims. Everything that we have done in the last few years. Our field research, our surveys, our studies show that Arabs and Muslims view America's biased position against the Palestinians.

O'BRIEN: So then what should the role of the Arab leaders be? Because it seemed that many Arab leaders, frankly, backed away from Arafat...

GERGES: Yes, that's right.

O'BRIEN: ... when criticisms about dishonesty, about all sorts of financial shenanigans, frankly, going on...

GERGES: Yes, yes.

O'BRIEN: ... moved away. So what do they need to do?

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Is this an opportunity for them as well?

GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, it's an opportunity for everyone. I think there is a consensus, there is a consensus, in the Arab state system that the Arab-Israeli conflict is one of the most important issues now to move forward. The question on the table is not whether the Arab world should move more forward. The question on the table is: Will the American president invest political capital in the political process and exert pressure not just on the Palestinians but also on his Israeli friends? This is the vital question.

O'BRIEN: When you see pictures like this -- and, of course, to just -- for anyone who is joining us, we're looking at in the center of your screen that's the casket holding the body of Yasser Arafat as it has landed about 45 minutes ago at his West Bank compound. And since then, the efforts to get that casket to the burial site have been monumental. It's just the idea of opening the doors of the helicopter. Finally, they were able to do that. Now, they're trying to move it through this massive crowd.

When you look at a scene like this -- and it has remained relatively calm in the context of a very emotional group of people...

GERGES: Yes, yes.

O'BRIEN: ... what do you think Yasser Arafat would have said about this? Would he have loved this? Would he be up there chiding his people...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... to calm down, to back away? What do you think?

GERGES: He' would have loved it.

O'BRIEN: Really?

GERGES: Yasser Arafat, unfortunately, this would have been a high point for Yasser Arafat. In fact, he enjoyed a drama. He was the ultimate player. He was a one-man show. And he also, by the way, governed by paralysis. I mean, Arafat, unfortunately for the Palestinians, did a great deal of damage to Palestinian civil society and Palestinian institutions. And I think this would have been a high moment, an enjoyable moment for Yasser Arafat.

O'BRIEN: We are seeing that the flag that had been draped over that casket...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... has now been yanked probably -- oh, there it looks like they're trying to put it back on the casket.

GERGES: This is a...

O'BRIEN: And the massive number of people who are trying to touch this casket as it moves through the crowd.

GERGES: Do you notice how orderly it is, the lack of violence?

O'BRIEN: Orderly in the context of a giant crowd of people.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: But you're absolutely right, yes.

GERGES: No major fighting, no major damage, no major harm. People are expressing their emotions and passions emotionally, but not violently, of course. The flag is being put back.

O'BRIEN: We're going to bring everyone back to speed as we start our 8:00 hour here on the East Coast of AMERICAN MORNING. You're looking at pictures of the casket that's holding the body of Yasser Arafat. That's in Ramallah at Arafat's compound inside the walls, where thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people have breached those walls, have climbed over, and have now been trying to move that casket into a conference hall, where the body is going to be held before its burial.

Michael Holmes has been reporting on this for us all morning.

Michael -- good morning again. And tell me what's changed in the last few minutes that we've been talking. HOLMES: Soledad, what it looks like has happened, the body was taken away, the casket was taken away to a viewing area, where dignitaries -- and there are several dignitaries from several countries here -- where they viewed the coffin and basically said their farewells and honored Yasser Arafat in their way.

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SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: We are watching pictures of this -- it looks like a Jeep or some kind of SUV or something. It's trying to get close to the helicopter.
FAWAZ GERGES, MIDDLE EAST EXPERT: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Michael Holmes has been watching all of this for us and really is providing these incredible pictures for us.

Michael, I'm going to bring you back in. We're back at the half- hour here on AMERICAN MORNING. Set the stage for us again for those who might just joining us. Arafat's helicopter, the helicopter containing the body of Yasser Arafat has landed in Ramallah.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, it has. Two helicopters somehow managed to land here among this sea of people.

What happens, Soledad, for those just joining, is that this whole area was meant to be completely empty of average Palestinians, if you like, the ordinary people. They were meant to come and see the tomb of Yasser Arafat later on this evening, a couple of hours from now. Well, as you can see, it didn't work out that way.

They poured into this compound, over the walls, through holes in the walls, just basically forced their way in. Once the helicopters landed, as we feared, they have swarmed the helicopters.

Now, what is going on here, we believe, was that they were making way for that vehicle to maybe take the casket of Yasser Arafat to the vehicle. To move that casket by hand would simply not work. And I said earlier that it reminds me of the scene that we saw with the funeral of the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran, where the body was simply mobbed by people. And the level of emotion here is such that that would likely happen here as well.

So they're trying to clear a pathway here to unload people and the body of Yasser Arafat. There are dignitaries here, foreign ministers from several countries in those helicopters. And they want to get them out and get them out safely.

What's interesting is pathways being formed, various pathways being formed now through this crowd by security forces. And also it must be said, Palestinians themselves, who appear to be self-policing the lines to try to keep some sort of way open for people to get out. And you can see there a military band actually doing its bit to clear the way as well. So they're trying to open the door to this helicopter at this stage. It's proving impossible.

Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashwari is standing next to me witnessing this, too. She's meant to be down there, believe it or not. Needless to say, she couldn't leave our live shot location because of this crowd.

Hanan, what do you make of it?

HANAN ASHWARI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: Well, I think it's just so overwhelming. The people are themselves overwhelmed and the situation is overwhelming. And the emotions are running so high that it's very difficult to see any kind of control.

But now, as you said, there is some self-discipline, because they're making pathways in order to allow for the unloading of the coffin. And I think you will see it come down soon, because the doors are being opened.

However, it's really a popular funeral. I think people are laying claim to their president in death the way they did in life, and they feel cheated out of his real funeral. And so this has become a sort of popular claim and the popular outpouring of emotion.

HOLMES: And a literal one as we watch these extraordinary pictures -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Yes, I have to say, you know, Michael, as you said before the helicopter landed, you said, well, it wouldn't be possible, and I completely concurred with you. And then, of course, we saw it land. We saw two of them land. And we keep saying it's not going to be possible to bring this body out in a crowd like this with the AK- 47s going. And yet it seems that they're opening the doors and they're rolling out a red carpet.

Again, how does this end? What happens? Do you think that they're just going to, because of the amount of respect that the people have for Yasser Arafat, in truth, no one is going -- nothing bad is going to happen?

GERGES: Not at all. Not at all. I think this is really the Palestinian people are expressing their love and their emotions for their leader. Yasser Arafat became synonymous with the Palestinian cause. He put the Palestinian cause on the world map. He himself, he says the Palestine cause is my wife. And even though he was corrupt, even though that he was incompetent, even though he not establish state institutions, in the eyes of most Palestinians he symbolizes, you might say, a potent symbol of their hopes and aspirations. And the Palestinians are saying, "Welcome home, our leader."

O'BRIEN: How much of it is "welcome home, our leader" and an expression of love, and how much is it fear that there is a power vacuum now?

GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, Soledad, this is really the critical point we were trying to say earlier is that I think this particular -- the death of Arafat comes at a very painful and very difficult moment for the Palestinians.

The Palestinians are facing some very existential challenges in the next few months and months. They have to reform their dormant institutions. Their institutions, of course, are in tatters. Of course, they have to engage in peace talks with the Palestinians. Their towns and cities are under occupation again. Unemployment is 65 percent, 80 percent of Palestinians in Gaza are below the poverty line, on less than $2.

Palestinians are terrified. Where do we go from here? Even Mahmoud Abbas has emerged, as you might say, the nominal leader of the Palestinians. He said, we face international isolation and, in fact, isolation in the Arab world. We must reclaim the moral high ground.

Palestinians are terrified, are anxious. They are at a loss. They lost their fatherly figure. Soledad, Yasser Arafat to Palestinians was a fatherly figure. They feel orphaned today. And given the political and economic situations, they're terrified of the future.

O'BRIEN: John Vause joins us by phone. He is there as well with a different perspective, a different location as well.

John, good morning. Thanks. Tell me what you're seeing. And what you're seeing now are some channels are opening up. As we heard Hanan Ashrawi referring to sort of self-policing, people maybe calming down, opening up some ways to get this casket, frankly, out of the helicopter through these channels and to the burial site.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Soledad. We've seen the security forces here try for quite some time now to clear that crowd. At one point, they moved a vehicle in trying to cut a path so they can remove the coffin from the helicopter. I think it's Saeb Erakat, who is the chief Palestinian negotiator, at the door of the helicopter who is asking -- or yelling at people to move away from the helicopter.

It does appear, though, at this stage that the security forces, the Palestinian security forces, are having a little bit of luck in moving these people back. But it has surely been an extraordinary scene. As this helicopter touched down in Ramallah, they were yelling, "Welcome home, welcome home, old man," as Yasser Arafat was known to thousands and thousands of Palestinians here.

But still, you would not say this is mass hysteria. It certainly is an emotional scene. And it looks as if the dignitaries, the officials on that Egyptian helicopter, are now negotiating with the crowd, trying and pleading with them to move away, to give this moment some dignity for Yasser Arafat, for this final service when he will be laid to rest in his compound.

It does appear that it may be calming down a little, but we can still hear the gunfire, the gunshots, which are ringing out from not just inside the compound, but from outside the compound as well. Automatic gunfire ringing out continually ever since the helicopter touched down -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: John, you know, you mentioned the sort of negotiations that we can see from the door of the helicopter to try to talk the crowd into backing up and getting out of the way. It kind of reminds you of screaming into the wind, because these two men -- and I believe one of them is Saeb Erakat, as you mentioned, the lead Palestinian negotiator, trying to back, with the wave of his hand, all of these -- excuse me -- thousands of people who have now gathered and who, frankly, have no intention of backing up, because they have come out to see Yasser Arafat and be part of the burial.

People had been told, I understand, John, that they could come by and visit, pay their respects, but not until after 6:00 local time, well after the ceremony was over. And obviously they really weren't listening to that, right?

VAUSE: That's right, Soledad. In fact, when this all started happening, when the thousands of people started climbing over the walls, breaching the walls, climbing onto the building, every one was saying, well, why didn't they think this was going to happen? I guess because it's been such a muted response to Yasser Arafat's, first his ill health, and then his departure from the compound two weeks ago. When he left, there was only a small crowd here. Palestinians have not been holding vigils here in Ramallah. It's been a very guarded response, if you like.

And even yesterday when word came out that Yasser Arafat had died, thousands did take to the streets, but certainly nothing like this. It seems this is the moment that the Palestinians had been waiting for.

While they were told they would have their opportunity to pay their respects to Arafat, once the official ceremony was over, it seems that tens of thousands of people were not prepared to wait for that, and this is the result. And as you say, these dignitaries, these officials at the helicopters, we can see they're waving their arms trying to push these people back. So it does seem that this...

O'BRIEN: We're told that that's the Palestinian minister of culture. And you're right. I mean, these high-ranking elected officials -- and Fawaz Gerges is again with us -- in some ways it seems completely futile. I mean, he's waving his hands back.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Thousands of people are not going to take a couple of steps back in order to allow this casket to come out of this helicopter.

GERGES: Yes. I mean, you have tens of thousands of young men who would like to take a look at their leader.

O'BRIEN: And yet? You know what? They're bringing it out anyway.

GERGES: And it's coming out. It's coming out. O'BRIEN: You're looking at live pictures from Ramallah in the West Bank. This is inside the compound of Yasser Arafat. Let's listen to the crowd as his casket is being brought from the helicopter to its burial site.

GERGES: It's a very emotional, very moving moment for the Palestinians, giving his blood and soul, we sacrifice Arafat.

O'BRIEN: It is amazing to think that they are, in fact, by hand...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... going to walk this casket. As Michael Holmes pointed out for us, not a very long distance from this helicopter to the burial site, but when you consider -- and I think you're right, guessing at the number of people.

GERGES: This is really dignity. I mean, look at them. I mean, they're allowing the casket to move forward. I mean, they're expressing their emotions, but yet with dignity. They're not harming the casket. They're not...

O'BRIEN: This is a remarkable sight as the body of Yasser Arafat is being handed...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... in some places carried and then passed over hand- by-hand through this crowd to get to his burial site. And as you mentioned, highly emotional.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: And Michael Holmes, I think, said that as well. And yet at the same time, calm, at this point.

GERGES: Yes, absolutely. And I think what really gives this particular scene an added element is the fact this is -- I mean, his headquarters. He was imprisoned there for almost three years. So it has an added symbolic value for many Palestinians. He's not just coming home to his home Palestine. He's coming home to his prison in the last three years. And I think Palestinians are expressing their grief and pain and solidarity with their leader who spent three years under house arrest.

O'BRIEN: We still have John Vause by phone.

John, we are looking at a tight shot of this casket as it makes its way, frankly, amazingly I think, through the crowd, considering just the sheer number of people who are there. Give me a sense of what the reaction is outside of just emotional. It looks like there is some violence. We see some pushing and shoving with some these security forces.

VAUSE: Yes, thousand of people are here, Soledad. And obviously the object here is to try and touch the coffin. We can see the security forces now climbing on. These actually look like members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, rather, who have climbed on. I can't be certain. But this is not what they would have wanted to have happened, but certainly an image which will be shown around the world as members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, I think, climb onto Arafat's coffin as it makes its way to the burial site. Quite extraordinary, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: I don't even think that comes close to describing it.

GERGES: What they're saying is "our souls with our blood, we sacrifice for you, our leader, Arafat." They're screaming, the crowd is shouting.

O'BRIEN: And tell me a little bit about the Al-Aqsa Brigade, as we see. And I believe that John is correct in describing...

GERGES: Yes, absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... that these are members...

GERGES: Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade.

O'BRIEN: ... not the security force.

GERGES: Not at all. I mean, you have -- of course, you have the Palestinian Authority, and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade is a militant organization, informally affiliated with Fatah, Fatah being the largest political faction. And Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, as you know, has been engaged in a political and violent struggle against Israel.

O'BRIEN: So when people, the Palestinians, and also the international audience, is watching this now, this coffin of Yasser Arafat, and on top the militant wing...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... connected to the PLO.

GERGES: I mean, this is...

O'BRIEN: What does that say?

GERGES: I think Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade is what I call the militant generation. They're trying to reclaim the legacy of Yasser Arafat. They're trying not only the old guard, he's not just the legacy for the old guard. He is also we own Yasser Arafat. And I think it's not a very positive message at all. In many ways, it reflects the tensions and the divisions and the contradictions in Palestinian society and within Fatah as well.

O'BRIEN: It is remarkable to me that this coffin is moving at the speed it is...

GERGES: Yes. O'BRIEN: ... when you consider the thousands of people who are out here, all, as John pointed out, with the goal of reaching out and touching Yasser Arafat's coffin...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... as it moves by. I should mention that we're being told that they're trying to move the coffin inside to a conference hall...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... inside to the Muqataa. Or they've moved the coffin to...

GERGES: The Muqataa, yes. The Muqataa is his headquarters in one of the buildings.

O'BRIEN: Exactly. And I'm told that that coffin is actually moving quickly because it's on a Jeep now.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: They've somehow managed to plow their way through.

GERGES: I think, Soledad, you also -- I mean, you can imagine the crowd is not trying to really obstruct or harm or damage. I think they're trying to express their emotions and passions for their leader. It's a highly-emotional, highly-passionate moment. This organized chaos is, of course, disorderly, but these are the facts of Palestinian life and politics these days.

O'BRIEN: In the short-term, just the trying to -- the logistics of trying to get this coffin off this Jeep and into the building, one has to imagine if all of these people could breach the walls of the compound...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... then they're easily going to be able to overrun the compound and go inside, if they so choose.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: Is that something that you would predict?

GERGES: Well...

O'BRIEN: Or do you think the respect for Yasser Arafat among the Palestinian people will keep anything that's emotional sort of bleeding into violence?

GERGES: Oh, absolutely. And I think we have seen it. Even though it's chaotic, even though it's symbolic, even though it's disorderly, I think they have shown a great deal of respect and dignity. They are moving, of course, very passionately, very emotionally, but yet no violence. No violence. No major -- you might say any major crisis emerging. You could imagine now the crowd of tens of thousands of people what could happen.

O'BRIEN: Who fills this void then? Who is the person who comes forward...

GERGES: No one.

O'BRIEN: ... and generates this much passion? No one. There is no one.

GERGES: No, Soledad, there is no one who could fill Yasser Arafat's shoes. And this is why elections, national elections, are the only mechanism, the only way forward for the Palestinians. Because any Palestinian leader that emerges must have a popular mandate. The shadow of Arafat, I mean, will remain there for many months and many years. And this is why any Palestinian leadership must have a popular, legitimate mandate from the people.

O'BRIEN: But as we see with the members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, as we're seeing right there, they're the ones waving some of the weapons...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... and sort of managed to push the coffin through on that Jeep, what person do you see in the leadership, in the cabinet, who could take the reins and deal with the terrorist elements within the PLO?

GERGES: I think you have two particular, what I call, two divisions. On the one hand, you have the old guard, the old guard that is Mahmoud Abbas and Ahmed Qorei. They have emerged as the two major leaders who might or could succeed Yasser Arafat. And you have, as you said, the militant generation, the generation of Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade.

And this is why you need to have elections. You need to have elections not only to provide the Palestinian -- the new Palestinian leadership with a popular mandate in order to move forward on the question of reforming Palestinian institutions and, of course, engaging Israeli peace negotiators. And this is why I think the next few months are going to prove to be very vital, vital for the new leadership, because unless, unless national elections take place, no Palestinian leader could claim a mandate to at least act and move forward.

O'BRIEN: Does having a mandate make a difference...

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... when you're dealing...

GERGES: Oh, absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ...when you are dealing with the violent elements within the -- I mean, frankly, do the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, does Hamas really care about an election?

GERGES: They will compete. They will compete. They will compete in elections, Hamas and Jihad.

O'BRIEN: And if they lose?

GERGES: They will lose. Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: And if they lose?

GERGES: And I think this is why I think any Palestinian leadership that emerges must have a blueprint, a political blueprint; that is, the Palestinians really must not only just put their house in order, must now put forward on the table a new paradigm, a new, you might say, vision for peace, political, political struggle must replace military and violent struggle.

Hamas and Jihad's tactics have done a great deal of damage, Soledad, to the Palestinian cause. And a new leadership, an elected new leadership must move forward with a new blueprint and find. If Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade do not accept this particular vision, they must be confronted, because the new Palestinian leadership will have a mandate from the people.

O'BRIEN: Let's explain for folks what they are looking at. This is inside the Ramallah compound of Yasser Arafat, and that throng of people have surrounded the casket, which is sort of in the middle of your screen right now. They are trying to move that casket into a main conference hall, because they're moving toward a burial this afternoon. We are told that the people who are on top of that casket and rolling it though on the Jeep, I believe, that's moving through that crowd, are members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, the more militant wing, if you will, connected to the PLO.

We've been talking with Fawaz Gerges of Sarah Lawrence College. He is a Middle East expert.

We talked earlier with the former secretary of state, Madeleine Albright.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: And she said, bluntly, to a blunt question about whether or not the Middle East is better off without Yasser Arafat.

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: That, yes, she thinks that now is the time that peace can move forward because he is gone. Is there any element of the Palestinian population that would agree -- even in their grief, even in their respect for the Palestinian leader, would say, yes, he was standing in the way of peace, and he was standing in the way of making the lives better for the Palestinian people?

GERGES: Well, I mean, I think this is a very good question, because I think in the United States and in Israel now there is a particular paradigm, Soledad, that Arafat was the major impediment to peace-making between Palestinians and the Israelis. This is not how Palestinians see it. This is not how Arabs and Muslims see it.

In fact, they argue even if Arafat, I mean, leaves the scene today, will the Israeli prime minister move forward and put his own vision the table? Will Ariel Sharon find any particular, any Palestinian leader who would accept Sharon's vision for peace? And what is Sharon's vision for peace of that if Palestinians take on less than 60 percent of the occupied Palestinian land?

O'BRIEN: But doesn't that bring us back to what was turned down back in 2000, which seemed like a wonderful deal to many people and crushed members certainly of the U.S. delegation that felt that they were able to bring the Israelis to the table with a good offer? And it was Yasser Arafat who at the critical moment said I've changed my mind, we're not going to move forward?

GERGES: Soledad, there are different narratives on what happened at Camp David. I think the big question on the table now is the following: The Palestinian leadership must put its house in order, must move forward and have a popular legitimate popular mandate, must chart a new course, a new course based on political struggle, not a military struggle, and all Palestinian factions and groups must be integrated into the political process. And even if Hamas and Jihad would like to participate in the political process will come on one condition: Participation requires responsibilities and duties. Hamas and Jihad and Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade should no longer be able to sabotage and undermine the Palestinian and the Israeli peace process.

O'BRIEN: But it's going to take a certain leader who can manage that.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: I mean, obviously, it's one thing to say...

GERGES: Naturally.

O'BRIEN: ... to these terrorists...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... or elements put down your weapons and join us at the table and another to actually make it happen.

GERGES: And this is why, Soledad, I think what we -- this is why what I'm suggesting is that national elections, which are supposed to take place in 60 days, are critical. Are critical.

Why they're critical, for just our American audience? They're critical because they provide the new Palestinian leadership with legitimacy, they invest legitimacy, and also enable the Palestinian leadership to move forward on the domestic scene. How could Mahmoud Abbas or Ahmed Qorei, as you said, control Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade or Hamas or Jihad without a popular mandate? A popular mandate tells us that Hamas that Abbas and the rest of the Palestinian Authority could stand up and say, listen, the people have spoken. You must accept the consensus of the people. Military struggle is not taking the Palestinians anywhere at this particular moment. Political struggle and civil disobedience are the only ways forward. And this...

O'BRIEN: It seems that you're painting a picture of a huge opportunity at this point, frankly...

GERGES: Yes, actually there is...

O'BRIEN: ... with the death of Yasser Arafat. Now do you truly believe that if there are elections and if it is, in fact, Mahmoud Abbas who walks away the victor, that he can have that kind of a dialogue with the terrorists?

GERGES: Oh, absolutely.

O'BRIEN: And that would stop the suicide bombings?

GERGES: In 2003, Mahmoud Abbas was the prime minister. As you know, he was appointed. He succeed in establishing a cease-fire between Hamas and the Israelis. These are facts. A popular...

O'BRIEN: Which then fell apart.

GERGES: Absolutely. A popular mandate would enable the Palestinian leadership to begin the difficult, dangerous and risky journey. No one is suggesting it's going to be easy. It will messy, risky, difficult and complex.

And Soledad, the point is here, without American leadership, without the personal intervention of the president of the United States, the peace process will not move forward.

O'BRIEN: What does President Bush have to do right now? Obviously, as you've seen, who has been sent as part of the U.S. delegation to pay their final respects...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... it's not a high-ranking member of cabinet.

GERGES: Not at all. Not at all.

O'BRIEN: So what do you think President Bush needs to do now to take advantage of this opportunity?

GERGES: Yes. We know what he did not do. In the last four years President Bush did not invest political capital in Palestinian- Israeli negotiations. It was not his priority. He made it very clear. It's about time that the president personally not only sends a third-ranking official, gets involved in the peace process.

Soledad, we, some of us who work on Middle East politics and American foreign policy, know without presidential intervention, presidential intervention I'm talking on the part of the president, peace process does not move forward. And not only, you not only have to pressure the Palestinians, the Palestinians need time and space now in order to show their people they can really deliver the goods.

President Bush must not give Ariel Sharon a cart blanche, as he has done in the last three years. It's about time that we, the United States, exert pressure on both sides. On both sides.

O'BRIEN: Do you think -- and some reports say -- that the president is considering a special envoy that would deal with peace?

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: And do you think that that goes far enough when you talk about the pressure from the president? Or does it need to be a bigger hand on the part of the president?

GERGES: I think the president himself should be calling the leaders, should be investing. Look what President Clinton did. He educated himself on the peace process. He spent time and energy, political capital. And this president tells us now he has earned political capital. Let's hope that President Bush invests some of this precious political capital in nudging Palestinians and Israelis into the negotiating table.

Because, Soledad, as you said, there is a small window of opportunity. On the one hand, you have a new dynamic Palestinian leadership emerging or likely to emerge out of these particular elections. Now you have an Israeli prime minister who can no longer say, Yasser Arafat is my demon. He is the impediment to peace. You have an American president who is the second mandate.

O'BRIEN: There was a report in "The New York Times" that says that President Bush might turn to Europe and look for more participation among European leaders.

GERGES: Wonderful. Wonderful.

O'BRIEN: So who do you seen then stepping forward?

GERGES: Well, I mean, as you know, Tony Blair has made...

O'BRIEN: He's going to be head of the G8. He'll be the head of the European Union.

GERGES: You're absolutely correct. And in the last few months, Tony Blair has made it very clear the Palestinian-Israel conflict is the most fundamental vital issue in world peace.

And Soledad, if we talk about American diplomacy, if we talk the American war on terror, if we talk about winning the hearts and minds of Arabs and Muslims, is there a better place for this president, the U.S. president to start? If he is genuine about -- I mean, you might say hammering a deadly nail.

O'BRIEN: So victory you mean in negotiating some kind of a deal between the Palestinians and the Israelis...

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: ... you think has a direction connection with what's happening, let's say, in Falluja today?

GERGES: A vital, direct connection to America's relations -- I mean, with (INAUDIBLE). The Arab-Israeli conflict is the most fundamental critical issue in relations, Soledad, between American foreign policy and Arabs and Muslims. Everything that we have done in the last few years. Our field research, our surveys, our studies show that Arabs and Muslims view America's biased position against the Palestinians.

O'BRIEN: So then what should the role of the Arab leaders be? Because it seemed that many Arab leaders, frankly, backed away from Arafat...

GERGES: Yes, that's right.

O'BRIEN: ... when criticisms about dishonesty, about all sorts of financial shenanigans, frankly, going on...

GERGES: Yes, yes.

O'BRIEN: ... moved away. So what do they need to do?

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: Is this an opportunity for them as well?

GERGES: Absolutely. I mean, it's an opportunity for everyone. I think there is a consensus, there is a consensus, in the Arab state system that the Arab-Israeli conflict is one of the most important issues now to move forward. The question on the table is not whether the Arab world should move more forward. The question on the table is: Will the American president invest political capital in the political process and exert pressure not just on the Palestinians but also on his Israeli friends? This is the vital question.

O'BRIEN: When you see pictures like this -- and, of course, to just -- for anyone who is joining us, we're looking at in the center of your screen that's the casket holding the body of Yasser Arafat as it has landed about 45 minutes ago at his West Bank compound. And since then, the efforts to get that casket to the burial site have been monumental. It's just the idea of opening the doors of the helicopter. Finally, they were able to do that. Now, they're trying to move it through this massive crowd.

When you look at a scene like this -- and it has remained relatively calm in the context of a very emotional group of people...

GERGES: Yes, yes.

O'BRIEN: ... what do you think Yasser Arafat would have said about this? Would he have loved this? Would he be up there chiding his people...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... to calm down, to back away? What do you think?

GERGES: He' would have loved it.

O'BRIEN: Really?

GERGES: Yasser Arafat, unfortunately, this would have been a high point for Yasser Arafat. In fact, he enjoyed a drama. He was the ultimate player. He was a one-man show. And he also, by the way, governed by paralysis. I mean, Arafat, unfortunately for the Palestinians, did a great deal of damage to Palestinian civil society and Palestinian institutions. And I think this would have been a high moment, an enjoyable moment for Yasser Arafat.

O'BRIEN: We are seeing that the flag that had been draped over that casket...

GERGES: Yes.

O'BRIEN: ... has now been yanked probably -- oh, there it looks like they're trying to put it back on the casket.

GERGES: This is a...

O'BRIEN: And the massive number of people who are trying to touch this casket as it moves through the crowd.

GERGES: Do you notice how orderly it is, the lack of violence?

O'BRIEN: Orderly in the context of a giant crowd of people.

GERGES: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: But you're absolutely right, yes.

GERGES: No major fighting, no major damage, no major harm. People are expressing their emotions and passions emotionally, but not violently, of course. The flag is being put back.

O'BRIEN: We're going to bring everyone back to speed as we start our 8:00 hour here on the East Coast of AMERICAN MORNING. You're looking at pictures of the casket that's holding the body of Yasser Arafat. That's in Ramallah at Arafat's compound inside the walls, where thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people have breached those walls, have climbed over, and have now been trying to move that casket into a conference hall, where the body is going to be held before its burial.

Michael Holmes has been reporting on this for us all morning.

Michael -- good morning again. And tell me what's changed in the last few minutes that we've been talking. HOLMES: Soledad, what it looks like has happened, the body was taken away, the casket was taken away to a viewing area, where dignitaries -- and there are several dignitaries from several countries here -- where they viewed the coffin and basically said their farewells and honored Yasser Arafat in their way.

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