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Inside Politics Sunday

A Look at Changes in Bush Cabinet; Interview With Theodore Olson

Aired November 14, 2004 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Now in the news. U.S. military officials report the deaths of 31 American troops in the latest fighting in Iraq centering on the battle for Falluja. Dozens have been wounded.
The military says it has now recaptured most of Falluja from the insurgents and that final cleanup operations continue against the small number of remaining insurgents.

More changes in the Palestinian leadership following the death of Yasser Arafat. Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei has been named to replace Arafat on the Palestinian National Security Council and presidential elections will be held before January 9th to pick a new leader.

In this country Vice President Dick Cheney tells reporters "I feel fine." He left the hospital yesterday after undergoing tests following shortness of breath. Cheney has suffered four hear attacks over the years. His latest medical check shows no signs of any heart trouble. We'll have a live report in about 30 minutes.

Now back to Bob Franken for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

BOB FRANKEN, HOST: INSIDE POLITICS today. Changes in the Bush administration -- who's in, who's out. A look at the president's key players headed into a second term.

The high court could soon be in, and the stage could be set for some high drama. Joining us a man who is often mentioned as a possible Supreme Court nominee.

And for the first time former democratic presidential nominee Michael Dukakis discusses the election results and the future of the Democratic Party. All of that straight ahead.

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington. This INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

FRANKEN: I know you're counting the days. Only 67 days to go until the presidential inauguration. Hello and welcome. I'm Bob Franken in Washington. Politics doesn't take the weekend off so, neither do we.

We begin with our top story. Vice President Dick Cheney walked out of George Washington University Medical Center yesterday afternoon after undergoing tests for shortness of breath. His cardiologists says the vice president probably has an upper respiratory infection, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but he shows no signs of heart problems or pneumonia.

Cheney has a history of heart related ailments and has suffered four heart attacks in the past. As Cheney left the hospital with his wife Lynne, Mrs. Cheney waved to reporters and said, "Sorry we ruined your Saturday." Lynne Cheney will discuss her husband's health today in an exclusive interview on "LATE EDITION" with Wolf Blitzer. That's coming up at noon eastern nine Pacific time.

So, let's get an update now from CNN's Elaine Quijano at the White House.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you Bob. No word of any change thins morning. But as you said, the vice president yesterday was complaining of shortness of breath as well as a cough. So on the advice of his cardiologist the vice president went to George Washington University Hospital, as you said, to undergo some precautionary tests. He was accompanied by his wife Lynne Cheney as well as his daughter Liz.

Now Mr. Cheney did spend several hours there before heading home. And in a statement released by his cardiologist yesterday the cardiologist Dr. Jonathan Reiner saying that "Test ruled out any cardiac cause of the vice president's symptoms. Tests also ruled out pneumonia and other pulmonary causes. The vice president likely has a viral upper respiratory infection.?

Now aides do say that the vice president had been suffering from a cold in recent days, after coming back from his annual hunting trip in South Dakota. Mr. Cheney, as you know, has been campaigning or had been campaigning quite vigorously in the month and especially the weeks leading up to the election even making a stop, as you see there, in Hawaii just before election day.

His heart troubles stretch back to 1978 when he had the first of four heart attacks at the age of 37. He's also had quadruple bypass surgery, a stint and also what Mr. Cheney calls a pacemaker plus was implanted. That device monitors and regulates, if needed, his heart rhythm. But again doctors have ruled out any heart trouble.

In the meantime there is another story that is developing. This one unrelated, but developing in published reports having to do with internal turmoil at the Central Intelligence Agency. Now on Friday the number two person there, John McLaughlin the deputy director announced that he would be retiring. That in and of itself is not a surprise.

But both the "Washington Post" and the "New York Times" are reporting that tensions within the CIA are mounting between the president's choice to head up the agency Porter Goss and some long time career strife. The articles are citing unnamed former intelligence officials as saying that officers aren't quite sure what to make of Porter Goss just yet. The CIA is not commenting but others point out that changes are always difficult in any agency.

But of course this is particularly important because this comes at a time when the president has said that reforming the intelligence community is a priority. So we will wait to see how that plays out. But the president for his part this morning attended church across the street along with wife Laura. He has a busy week ahead of him, Bob. He will be attending the dedication of the Clinton Presidential Library in Arkansas before heading to Chili for the annual AZPEC meeting. A meeting with Asian and Pacific leaders to talk about economic issues.

FRANKEN: And of course Elaine it's fair to say that Europe would not be described as a red state. I suspect that we're going to see quite a bit of anger when he appears there. What is the white House saying about that?

QUIJANO: At this particular point what they are saying is that the president will continue to try and reach out. We saw this on Friday when the president met with the British prime minister here. The president wanting to put forth the image, if you will, that he is trying to reach out. And so this very much will be an opportunity to do that as well, to show that despite the divisions that occurred with the Iraq war and the run up to the Iraq war and how that is carried out. The president now wanting to go back to those countries, perhaps try and mend some fences.

Bob.

FRANKEN: Than you, Elaine. And consistent with that, the issue of the middle east peace took on a new focus in Washington this week after the death of Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat. British Prime Minister Tony Blair also paid a visit to the White House.

President Bush and Prime Minister Blair suggested that Arafat's death has created a new opportunity for talks about a Palestinian state. Mr. Bush says he'd like to see it done within four years. And Blair had this to say about the issue this morning on NBC's "Meet the Press."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: As a political challenge I think it is the toughest we face and I think it's vitally important because the single biggest blow that we could deal to the terrorists along with democracy in Afghanistan, democracy in Iraq is to take away this cause on which they prey and they feed and deliver a viable and a democratic Palestine alongside a secure and democratic Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: President Bush says he hopes the new Palestinian leaders will embrace the notion of a democratic states. The president had regarded Arafat as the primary obstacle to peace with Israel.

And now turning to Congress. Members of both the House and the Senate return to Washington next week for a lame duck session of the 108th Congress coming back this week. And our congressional correspondent Ed Henry takes a look at what it might and might not get accomplished. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The campaign and the party are over so it's back to work for Congress, which returns for a lame duck session Their first priority, passing a stack of spending bills to keep the government from shutting down. But don't expect too much else.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: What's the point of doing a lot now? You're going to have more troops to be able to do something next year. All they want to do in this lame duck session is the minimum necessary and get out of town.

HENRY: With a stronger hand next year they'll tackle major issues like Social Security reform and an overhaul of the tax code.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: Two thousand and five is a critical opportunity for us to define our majority, to move forward. The president has put some big items on the table

HENRY: In the lame duck session Republican leaders will try to pass the stalled highway bill. There's also been some progress on 911 intelligence reform. But Democrats fear creation of a national intelligence director may be delayed until next year when Republicans will have greater clout to cut a deal more favorable to the Pentagon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It would be a tragedy and it would dangerous to our country if we do not pass the 9/11 Commission legislation in the lame duck session.

HENRY: The Treasury Department has asked Congress to raise the nation's $7.4 debt ceiling by $690 billion. Democrats want to force a vote now in an effort to embarrass the Bush administration.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should begin addressing the problem of the deficit now and not later. We shouldn't kick the can down the road.

HENRY (on camera): Also on the agenda, Senator Arlen Specter will go behind closed doors with fellow Republicans to explain his comments on judicial nominations. But an actual vote on Specter's fate as judiciary chairman is not expected until January.

Ed Henry, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And this week new members of Congress make their way to Washington for freshman orientation. Think of it as rookie training camp. But up next we're going to be joined by two lawmakers who know their way around the corridors of Capitol Hill.

And later Bill Schneider sits down with another Democratic presidential nominee who also lost an election to a guy Bush. And of course that would be Michael Dukakis, who opens up in a candid interview in this week's "Story Behind the Story." And the results from election day 2004 are not even two weeks old, but some Democrats have already chosen their nominee for 2008. That's ahead in Campaign News Daily.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: This month's election not only produced a victory for President Bush it titled the balance of power even more in favor of the Republicans. And here to talk about the eternal power structure on Capitol Hill are two members of Congress.

We have Rahm Emanuel, a Democratic congressman from Illinois. He's with us from Chicago. And Tom Davis the Republican congressman is from Virginia and he's with us right here.

But I want to start with Congressman Rahm Emanuel in Chicago and I want to talk about the importance of Congress particularly now that the Democratic Party is weakened. Does it really become in your mind congressman a rubber stamp?

REP. RAHM EMANUEL (D), ILLINOIS: First of all, I think the American people do not want a Congress that's a lap dog. They want a Congress that's a watch dog. And if he Congress acts like a lap dog, there will be a reaction to that.

And on the issue of tax reform and Social Security and intelligence, our Democratic Party has a set of ideas. Take tax reform, for example, on that area, Bob. The president says that one of his principles is -- and Republicans say they want a revenue neutral, budget neutral tax reform. Our principle is that no tax reform should raise taxes on the middle class. And if that (UNINTELLIGIBLE), we could have a good discussion about that. The Democrats (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if your ideas are good, you're a relevant party.

FRANKEN: Those issues were fought and the Democrats lost in the election that just was held. Let's ask about the budget realities now, Congressman Davis. The truth of the matter is that when Congress comes back it's going to have to start making some very painful cuts and the Democrats are going to say that's because of the fiscal policies of the Republicans.

REP. TOM DAVIS (R), VIRGINIA: Well it's not. It's economic issues. It's the fact that entitlement programs continue to grow and we've got some tough decisions to make. But I think the voters recognize that they want the Republicans in charge. For 20 of the last 24 years we've had divided governments. This is the first time a regime that has been reelected to control the House, the Senate and the presidency since 1964. It's quite a statement on behalf of the America people. I think they wanted to break the gridlock and give us a chance to govern.

FRANKEN: Isn't this really a poke in the eye congressman to the Democrats, Congressman Emanuel?

EMANUEL: I don't think so. I don't think it's a poke in the eye. I think we needed to make a case. First of all let me say this on the national of the presidential level. The Republicans say that never in the history of the country have we ousted a president during a time of war and I think the election proved that to be true and they were right before the election on that prediction.

And I think -- nonetheless, we ended up getting up 49 percent of the vote in this election. It wasn't 50. But also, I think, had we made the case on the economic arguments on the areas of where the economy was falling short for the middle class I think you would have had a different result. But it proved the premise of the Republican party which is that in a time of war they will not switch horses and that ended up being true on election day.

FRANKEN: Is that the only premise?

DAVIS: Of course not. Look, the Democrats have not gotten a majority of the vote for president since 1964. That's a fact. For three straight elections we've had -- no one has gotten a majority. We were able to break out of the mold this time. It was on a series of issues and I think the voters spoke decisively.

FRANKEN: But I have to get back to the point we discussed just a moment ago. The tough, tough, tough economic realities are about to come to the fore and is this going to be something that the Republicans are going to be willing to be with?

DAVIS: We have to deal with them. When you get a majority unfortunately you have the responsibility to govern and that means making a lot of tough decisions.

FRANKEN: But these...

DAVIS: The budget deficit has to be tackled. It's having ramifications on the dollar, worldwide inflation and everything else.

FRANKEN: That's a wonderful abstract, but we're talking about such things as possibly talking back on Amtrak very useful to people. We're talking about education cutbacks. We're talking about a variety of programs that people rely on.

DAVIS: I don't think, in my opinion, two thirds of federal spending is in entitlement programs. You are going to have to retool those programs in one shape or another. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) are Social Security, Medicare, welfare, all of these as well as discretionary spending.

Some of these programs have been operating on life support for a long time. They're not very efficient and we're going to have to make some tough hard decisions as we look forward. And I'm not sure where Congress will come down, but having 55 votes in the Senate -- the House has spoken on these issues before. Having 55 Republicans in the Senate now and being through a budget resolution, maybe we can implement some of these for the first time in decades.

FRANKEN: But of course speaking of the Senate, unlike the House it's the place where things slow down, and the only way to stop that is to have 60 votes for the...

DAVIS: Not under the budget resolution. The budget resolution is not filibusterable. You can do some of your tax reforms through that mechanism.

FRANKEN: But the Budget resolution gets caught up in some very procedural matters, as you know, and again the Senate can slow things down as you are well aware. But getting back now to a Congress that is supposed to be a separate branch of government, there's feeling now that it has become nothing more than a Greek chorus.

DAVIS: Traditionally when you have a presidential party controlling Congress it becomes a little more parliamentary. But I think Congress has its own priorities in some of these areas. Certainly our investigations -- our committees held four hearings on Halliburton. We're going to continue, I think, oversight of programs that are not working right and try to keep the executive branch on its toes and look for inefficiencies.

FRANKEN: but is it fair to say with a Republican Congress the president is pretty much going to have his way?

DAVIS: Well, I think he's going to feel a lot more comfortable moving his program through with a Republican Congress. I don't thin it's going to be a rubber stamp. I think you're going to have our leaders talking to the president. I think a lot of it will be worked out more harmoniously than if you had a president and a Congress from different parties as we've had for 20 of the last 24 years.

FRANKEN: And what about the concern, and we have to make this very short, that the Democrats are just going to be shut out of the process?

DAVIS: That's up to them. If they want to participate in the process and try to legislate and offer ideas. But so much of what they've done has been offering motions on ethics complaints, filibustering, those are really kind of destruction. And if they're going to marginalize themselves with that I think they'll be irreverent. To the extent they're in there at the table trying to negotiate I think they have some good ideas to offer and I think the county will be better off.

FRANKEN: Congressman Tom Davis, the Republican, you have the advantage of being here. Congressman Emanuel was in Chicago and the reason we haven't been talking to him for the last couple of minutes is because we had those wonderful technical problems.

But coming up next a man who has been mentioned as a possible Supreme Court nominee. We're going to be talking to former Solicitor General Ted Olson . And the late night comedians still love politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, LATE NIGHT COMEDIAN: John Kerry is considering running again in 2008. Then, you know, he could change his mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: One of the most important elements of the second Bush term is going to be the future makeup of the Supreme Court. The hold federal judiciary, as a matter of fact. The president is expected to have major influence on the direction of the court, selecting one or possibly more justices. Our guest now is somebody who once argued the Supreme Court -- before the Supreme Court on behalf of the U.S. government as solicitor general. Ted Olson joins me now for a look at the future of the high court.

Good morning, sir. Let's start by discussing a future with possibly a nomination of Ted. Olsen. You know that's being talked and now I'm going to give you a chance to do the ritual aw shucks...

THEODORE OLSON, FMR. U.S. SOLICITOR GENERAL: I Told you the other day, Bob, I said they were just doing that to scare small children.

FRANKEN: But of course, children don't have anything to do with confirming that person. Is it something that you've discussed at all? Have you pondered this?

OLSON: No I have not. This is not the sort of thing that anybody who has any sense at all really thinks about. I'm practicing in the private sector and I'm enjoying it. I'm perfectly happy to have that continue.

FRANKEN: Let's assume for the moment you would be somebody who would be discussed again by the Senate. When you were confirmed as solicitor general it was a close vote. You are somebody who is controversial, as is the man who was your boss, the outgoing Attorney General John Ashcroft Let's play part of his speech before the Federalist Society.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The risks of invasive oversight in micro management of executive functions by unelected courts have become all too familiar. Dangerous and constitutionally questionable judicial action raises the stakes for our nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: He was talking about activist courts, as you know, and he was saying hat they can danger the very security of the United States. Do you subscribe to this?

OLSON: Well, I think what General Ashcroft was talking about, and I was there for that speech, is the proper recognition by the judiciary of the judiciary's role in our government. We have a carefully separated system of powers. The president has special power when it comes to becoming commander-in-chief. Congress has a role and so do the courts, but their role has to be limited.

FRANKEN: Well you argued that in fact his role in this present time in matters of war should be virtually not existent.

OLSON: We didn't argue that. We argued that in connection with persons who are not citizens of the United States who were in custody abroad were not matters into which the judiciary should be involved.

FRANKEN: Let me quote your deputy obviously operating at your direction. "Where the government is on a war footing than you, mean the courts, have to trust the executive." He was responding to your question is there any judicial check. Now as you know you lost that battle before the Supreme Court.

OLSON: Well, what he was saying and we did say in the briefs, the government did say in its briefs and the government will say today that the judiciary has to defer to a large degree to the president when he is fighting a war. The framers of our Constitution felt that we had to have a unitary executive especially at the time of war. Because a group of judges has a very difficult time making command decisions at the time when troops are in peril.

FRANKEN: But the Supreme Court in is ruling, Sandra Day O'Connor said an unchecked system of detention carries the potential to become a means for oppression and abuse of others who do not present that sort of (UNINTELLIGIBLE>

OLSON: Bob no one is saying that there shouldn't be checks and there shouldn't be balances, but each branch has to respect the role and the realm of the other branch. That's what the government has been saying here. And it's particularly important in a time of war. Because commanders in the field have to make quick decisions and these decisions could mean life or death of our soldiers.

FRANKEN: Well let's talk about the type of person who the president would nominate for the Supreme Court. He uses the term strict constructionist, which as I understand it means you follow the Constitution literally with no regard for future (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

OLSON: Everybody has a different meaning of the term strict constructionist or judicial activism. What the president is talking about is a carefully -- careful recognition of the role of the judiciary. The Constitution says and legislation says what it says and courts have a responsibility to refer to the popular will when the legislature has acted up to a point. Not inconsistent with the Constitution, but up to a point.

FRANKEN: And let's talk about the issue that is number one when people think of this and that is he Roe vs. Wade decision. Were you a justice would you vote to overturn the Roe vs. Wade decision?

OLSON: I'm not going to go anywhere near that. The justices have rendered decisions in connection with the subject of abortion several times over. When ever an if ever that case comes before the Supreme Court the justices are going to have to look at that case in its context. There will be different facts and there will be different circumstances. That's far down the road.

FRANKEN: But there's still a fundamental -- a fundamental question. Does the woman have the right to choose to have an abortion?

OLSON: That's right and the justices have spoken on hat subject and when and if they have an opportunity to look at it again they will look at it in the context of what they have said before.

FRANKEN: OK. We will see if the next time we see you is before some sort of confirmation hearing. Ted Olson, solicitor general in the previous last four year term and now in private practice. Thank you very much.

OLSON: Thank you.

FRANKEN: Now we move on. We move on now to the question aid to the civilians of Falluja. Why the Red Crescent organization is going to have to wait just a little longer. That story is just ahead. And then after the election we all saw a map showing a sea of red and smaller patches of blue. If red really dominates America, why was the election so close? For that we're going to ask a panel of reporters on the record. And later, a hot line tip sheet with the possibility of a shake up at the DNC, the Democratic National Committee. We're going to find out who is on the most wanted list to head up the Democratic Party.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: "Now in the News," isolated fighting continues in Falluja, but a top Marine commander says insurgents can no longer count on the city as a sanctuary. Between 1,000 and 2,000 insurgents have been killed in a week of fighting, but officials don't know how many civilians have been killed or wounded. The latest figures from the military show 31 U.S. and six Iraqi troops killed during the offensive.

A convoy of aid trucks is being kept from heading into the heart of Falluja. Reuters reports a Marine officer says the Iraqi Red Crescent convoy of ambulances and other aid can't cross the bridge over the Euphrates River because it is still not safe. The trucks carrying food, blankets and medicine are waiting at Falluja's hospital for now.

Vice President Dick Cheney was in and out of a Washington hospital yesterday. Cheney went in for tests after experiencing some shortness of breath.

He went in to get checked out because of his history of heart problems. He has had four heart attacks over the years. Doctors ruled out any cardiac troubles at this time, but say Cheney probably has an upper respiratory infection.

I'm Tony Harris at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Now back to Bob Franken in Washington and more of INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

FRANKEN: And welcome back to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. And we've got a lot going on, figuring out what voters really think is important. The Democrats are trying to determine their future and the shock of a post-Arafat Middle East, to say nothing of that D.C. health care, translate the vice president and his cold. And here to go on the record, Jill Zuckman of "The Chicago Tribune"; CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times"; and Matthew Cooper of "TIME" Magazine.

And let's start with you. Every time the vice president has a cold, everybody sneezes, but there's a really serious matter here. And this is somebody whose health is considered by many to be precarious.

MATTHEW COOPER, "TIME": No, absolutely. I mean, look, someone who's got a decades-long history of heart disease, has had several heart attacks and, you know, as recently as a couple years back, you know, it's very serious. And, you know, everyone -- this was just a reminder of how on edge everyone is about this.

RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": You know who else has a catch in the throat every time Dick Cheney goes to the hospital? All the Republicans looking at 2008. Because this is an unusual situation where you have no obvious successor to a very popular president within his own party.

And the fact that Cheney is very unlikely to run in 2008 makes this a wide-open field. If, for any reason, they had to replace him at any point, it would be a very interesting question whether President Bush would put in someone who would have a leg up.

JILL ZUCKMAN, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Or put someone that he'd like to replace him, to be a successor.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, right.

FRANKEN: And just for the record, the 25th amendment says that the president would name a successor to be confirmed by a majority in both houses, so it's somewhat different. But we're talking about the problems of the Republican Party, and that's really probably not on the front burner.

We're talking about the problems, of course, of the Democratic Party. And I have to ask a very broad-brush question. Is the Democratic Party -- Democratic Party really losing its role as the major opposition party?

COOPER: Well, I think it's still alive. You know, it's got a pulse. I mean they...

FRANKEN: Albeit -- albeit...

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: But it's a diminished one. I mean, clearly, they had a lot of problems in this election. But, you know, there were signs of strength out there in some races. And, you know, I think they have the makings of a comeback. How they do it, I'm not so clear. ZUCKMAN: I think the problem is that they ran this race expecting that people would just be unhappy with Bush and say yes to something else. And what they needed to do was to be better defined as what they stood for as opposed to they stood for anything but Bush.

BROWNSTEIN: A couple things. First of all, they're in a better position on the presidency than they are in Congress at this point.

If you look at the 18 states that Kerry won, they've now won those 18 states four consecutive elections. They have a total of 248 electoral college votes. They're within range if they can broaden the map. And that is the big "if."

In Congress, the situation I think is much more difficult at this point. The Republicans are consolidating their control over the red states, the states that President Bush won.

He won 29 states twice. The Republicans now have 44 of those 58 Senate seats, which puts them on the brink of a majority even before they start in blue America.

I think Democrats have to find a way to expand the playing field, Bob. They have to find a candidate who can compete in more of these red states, because that would also provide some air cover to begin running more effectively for Congress in those states as well.

FRANKEN: Well, it was funny. Harry Reid had one of the sadder statements I've seen in a long time in today's "New York Times," when he said, "Well, we still have 45 votes in the Senate.". It's going in the wrong direction for them. Harry Reid...

ZUCKMAN: Well, it may be the wrong direction, but, you know, his point is you need 60 votes to get something done in the Senate. And the Democrats are not going to roll over and play dead. I think that is -- I think that's where they're going to be coming from.

BROWNSTEIN: Their problem is, it's very difficult to define yourself when you're out of power in all three -- in all three -- you know, the House, the Senate and the presidency. To some extent, their immediate prospects depend on overreaching or mistakes or events conspiring against the Republicans.

It probably is going to take, I think, a presidential nominee, and more likely a president, to really change this balance. Because the Democrats have to improve their image in these races. They're getting wiped out in the South and the Southwest.

FRANKEN: Well, let's do what we really like to do, and that's talk about us. Regrettably -- I mean, that's what we like to do most.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

FRANKEN: Regrettably, there are some embarrassments right now. The whole question about exit polls -- and I'll ask you to address that. But beyond that, the analysis and overanalysis and over- simplistic analyses that are coming out in the wake of the election, who wants to start with that one?

COOPER: Well, I think, you know, the media fell for these seven hours of the Kerry administration, you know.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: I mean, I was getting calls from Democrats who were taking credit for different things. You know, people were talking about the Kerry cabinet. It was -- you know, it showed how sort of delusional the press can be.

But look, you know, the methodologies of these things are still quite uncertain. It's more art than science. And it's probably not the last time we'll have uncertainty on elections.

FRANKEN: Do you think the first amendment was meant to say the freedom for the delusional press? I mean, it seems to be a problem here.

ZUCKMAN: Well, I have to give my editor credit. He sent some me exit polls that day. And at the top, he wrote, "Don't believe these. These numbers are wrong." Because he thought the numbers seemed so out of wack.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, I was dubious. Look, by the end of this campaign, we were in a position where we were beyond the ability, I think, of polls to tell us who was going to win. Because the thing that polls have the most trouble with is figuring out who is going to vote. And President Bush's great success in this election was, in fact, changing the composition of the electorate.

Now, in the end, more Republicans voted than people expected. For the first time, Republicans equaled Democrats in a presidential election. More conservatives voted than people expected.

It was a lot like 1994, Bob, when there was a huge surge in the percentage of people who voted who consider themselves conservatives. And the polling in the end simply -- not only the exit polling, but the pre-election polling was not fully able to capture that.

COOPER: But he got people to switch, too. It wasn't just they brought out this base. And this is part of the debate that's going on now, did he just mobilize conservatives or get people to flip?

BROWNSTEIN: He did -- he did get -- he did make some inroads with Latinos, with married women. But you know, Matt, he still lost among Independents, he still lost among moderates. And in the end, he only switched two states.

I think that he did show some gains in the center. But by and large, he muscled this through by mobilizing an extraordinary vote among his base.

FRANKEN: We're making all these -- all these analyses of why the Democrats lost and why the Republicans won. Couldn't it really simply be that the Republicans did a better job at their job? That is to say, they had a better strategy, they organized better, and they had a message that was better, and that the Democrats kept unfolding under the withering attacks?

ZUCKMAN: You know, I think that those things are true, but I also think that presidential politics has a lot to do with personality. And I think voters felt more comfortable with President Bush, and I think they ultimately just weren't as at ease with Senator Kerry.

And I think that this -- what happened this election doesn't necessarily mean the same thing's going to happen four years ago, or that the Republicans will get the same results-plus. Things could change with new personalities in the race.

FRANKEN: So it's purely a personality contest?

BROWNSTEIN: No, I don't think so. But, look, there are two ways I could answer your questions.

If you look at Ohio as the place that decided this election, I think there's a lot to recommend what you said. The Democrats -- I think John Kerry did everything he set out to do in Ohio.

He increased the vote in Cleveland enormously. He won the northeast counties, sort of the Rust Belt counties. He won the big swing suburban counties: Franklin, Montgomery, Stark. But he was simply trumped by this enormous success that President Bush had in turning out a vote in southern and southwestern Ohio. Nationally, though, John Kerry, because of who he was, a Massachusetts senator with a generally liberal voting record, I think simply wasn't able to compete enough to reign.

FRANKEN: But the Democrats, according to a favorite political analyst of mine, while the Republicans, when a problem comes up, they organize and attack, the Democrats call a meeting. And it seems to be that that is the nature of the party right now.

COOPER: Well, I think that's right. And it's also a circular firing squad at the moment. They're all blaming each other. Liberals say we weren't liberal enough. You know, moderates say we weren't moderate enough. That's got to sort itself out.

FRANKEN: So I guess we're going to probably have to leave it at the Mark Twain statement, reports of the death of the Democratic Party are probably exaggerated. But we can also remember Will Rogers said he didn't belong to an organized party. He was a Democrat.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANKEN: And this was a great discussion this morning. Look forward to seeing you all again. Thank you very much.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks.

ZUCKMAN: Thank you. FRANKEN: But coming up next on INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY, a former presidential candidate sat down with our Bill Schneider to offer the Democratic Party some much-needed words of advice.

Plus, impersonating a presidential candidate's always good for a laugh. Even after the election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: From whom should the Democrats seek advice after losing the election? Well, a possible starting point is someone who has been there before. And our Bill Schneider sat down with former presidential candidate Michael Dukakis for an exclusive "Story Behind the Story."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Democrats trying to deal with their loss should talk to someone who's been there, like Michael Dukakis, the Democrat who lost to a guy named Bush in 1988.

MICHAEL DUKAKIS (D), FMR. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's only when you go through a campaign like that that you realize just how difficult it is. Not only to address the issues, but to give people a sense of who you are. I mean, if I had a nickel for everybody who's come up to me since '88 and said, "You know, you're nothing like the guy we were watching on television..."

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis has an opinion about what happened to Kerry, who was once his lieutenant governor.

DUKAKIS: I don't think George Bush won this thing because of gay marriage or evangelical Christianity or any of this stuff. He won it, in my judgment, on the national security issue.

SCHNEIDER: Another former Democratic candidate has a different opinion.

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With regard to the gay marriage issue, it was an overwhelming factor in the defeat of John Kerry.

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis believes Democrats still have the advantage on economic issues. President Bush had better be mindful of that.

DUKAKIS: If the president of the United States thinks this election was a mandate for privatizing Social Security and cutting taxes for the super rich for the third time, he's delusional.

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis was criticized for failing to fight back when he was confronted with the Willie Horton attack ads in 1988. Some critics say Kerry made the same mistake this year when he was confronted with the Swift Boat Veterans ads.

DUKAKIS: He should have said to the president of the United States, "Stand up and tell those people to get those ads off the air. You know they're baseless. And if you don't, it goes directly to your character."

SCHNEIDER: Then Dukakis had second thoughts about whether or not he has standing to criticize Kerry.

DUKAKIS: Should he have done that? I'm the last guy in the world to try to make that judgment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis told me he thought Kerry missed an opportunity. When Bush called him a "flip-flopper," Dukakis wondered why Kerry didn't do a better job painting Bush as a world champion flip-flopper on nation-building, on weapons of mass destruction, on illegal material in Africa, on the Department of Homeland Security, on the 9/11 Commission. All flip-flops -- Bob.

FRANKEN: Well, Bill, what strikes me about your report is the message that the Democrats seem to have made a lot of the same mistakes this time. Do you think that the third time might be a charm for them, if they'll learn something from this?

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis has had 16 years to ponder the mistakes he made, and he readily acknowledges them. And he points to some of the same mistakes exactly Kerry made.

Interestingly, Dukakis said what the Democrats need right now, he thinks, is a very dense grassroots campaign in 160,000 precincts all over the country. And I said, "Well, didn't the Democrat democrats have a big turnout campaign?" And he pointed out, parachuting people from outside a month before Election Day is not a grassroots campaign.

FRANKEN: Thank you, Bill. Bill Schneider in Los Angeles today.

And now we're going all the way across country. And in a moment, we'll talk about the state of Florida. We're always talking about the state of Florida. And it continues its bizarre election rituals. We'll try and make heads or tails of it "Campaign News Daily."

And we'll find out who is battling for the chance to head up the Democratic Party. That's coming up next on INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Well, the speculation about the new leader of the Democratic Party is the focus of today's "Hotline Tipsheet" with Chuck Todd, the editor-in-chief of "The Hotline," which is an insider's political briefing produced daily by "The National Journal."

We pretty much know who it's not going to be for very long the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Terry McAuliffe.

CHUCK TODD, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE HOTLINE": Absolutely. Well, I think there's going to be an election sometime in early February, is the way the rules go. It will be just after the inauguration. And there seems to be a coalescing around sort of three names you hear the most of who might be interested. And one is the former governor from Vermont, Howard Dean, former presidential candidate. And then you've got Tom Vilsack out of Iowa, current governor. And then Harold Ickes, who's sort of an insider, ran one of the 527s.

And it seems to be this movement almost circulating around Vilsack. That if Vilsack does want this thing, he could sort of coalesce all the different parts of the Democratic Party sans the Dean wing of the Democratic Party. Dean has a big following on the Internet.

Two of the problems for Vilsack and Dean, they would both have to take a pledge probably not to run for president themselves, and both I think would kind of want to run for president themselves. And then with Vilsack, he's not -- he couldn't be a full-time chairman because he's still governor. And then he would have to bring somebody else in to help run the day-to-day.

FRANKEN: Well, the other problem that some critics say is that he is also somebody who blends into the woodwork. He's inoffensive.

TODD: Well, he's inoffensive, but he comes from a red state. Iowa got flipped. Iowa's a red state, reddish state.

He comes from that area. He's a Catholic. He's, you know, somebody that might be able to speak to, you know, bring a Midwestern message.

I mean, the problem with the DNC is not mechanics. Mechanically, the Democratic Party did fine. They got all of the known vote that they needed out.

It's message is their biggest problem. And so a pick of Vilsack would be a pick of message over mechanics.

FRANKEN: Well, the Democratic Party seems to be suffering from a message in need of improvement. You have those who are the core constituency of the Democrats. Those are the ones who are the labor unions, the oppressed, the disaffected, frankly.

You have the groups that were represented by Bill Clinton, the Democratic leadership conference. And now you have this third group, what is it, the Third Wave or something?

TODD: Third Wave, yes, I know. All these -- everybody's starting up their own group. And I think that that's a problem that the next DNC chair has to deal with, is the fact that there are going to be -- every ideological spectrum of the Democratic Party is going to have their own umbrella group, and that's a serious problem.

FRANKEN: But isn't that the fundamental problem of the Democrats? That it's really about 25 different systems?

TODD: It is. And the coalition-building. And that's -- you know, that's why any DNC chair has to realize they're going to get sucked into this vortex of this small constituency group politics that the Republicans just don't have to deal with.

FRANKEN: Well, Bill Clinton was able to do something about that when he pulled everybody together under the auspices, as I said, of the DLC, which critics charge is really a wing of the Republican Party.

TODD: The good thing that Clinton did was able to win elections for himself. The bad thing, though, is that this bridging that he did actually ended up causing more problems for the party structurally underneath.

He came into office, they controlled everything. He left office, they controlled nothing. So it's not exactly the best legacy model to follow.

FRANKEN: We have very little time. But is it your impression the Democratic Party's going to be able to -- pardon the term -- right itself?

TODD: Well, if you look at what happened to the Republicans in 1964, their biggest disastrous loss yet, four years later they win the presidency. So I think sometimes we go a little overboard in this fight. But I think the next year's going to be kind of ugly in the Democratic Party as they sort itself out, and then maybe by '06 we'll be ready to be a unified umbrella group again.

FRANKEN: So we'll have plenty to talk about.

TODD: Absolutely.

FRANKEN: And "The Hotline" is insider's political briefing produced daily by "The National Journal." Thank you very much for being with us. And you can go on line to thenationaljournal.com for subscription information, you political junkies out there.

But let's move on now and check the headlines in the Sunday edition of our "Campaign News Daily."

Education Secretary Rod Paige is among those being discussed to be added to the name added to the list of cabinets who are about to pull out. According to administration officials, though, it is not known if Paige has submitted his letter of resignation and whether Bush will accept it. Attorney General John Ashcroft and Commerce Secretary Don Evans have already resigned their posts for the coming term.

The official launch of votehillary.org has been set for January 1st of next year. The Draft Hillary Rodham Clinton for president campaign is not affiliated with the senator's office, says the senator's office. But the Draft Hillary team says more information about the committee and its endorsements will come in late December.

New Mexico is still undecided on who won the election. And it may not be able to declare a winner until November 23rd, once the last county has finished its recount. So will it be Bush or will it be Kerry? And will we care with five electoral votes? In any case, we'll just have to wait to find out.

And in Florida, a city council election was decided by a coin toss. Both the candidates received the same number of votes in the November 2 election. After two recounts and still no winner, they resorted to tossing a coin.

The flipped coin landed on tails, giving 77-year-old GP Sloan the victory. So perhaps Florida has finally figured out how to do this.

Well, the election might be over, but that does not mean that the late-night comedians cannot still make their jokes. We stay up late so you don't have to. The best political punch lines when INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: For a brief period on election night it looked like the late-night comics would no longer have George Bush to kick around anymore. But not to worry, he won. If you call this winning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA CARVEY, COMEDIAN: I mean, Kerry was a weird looking dude. I mean, Herman Munster had nothing on this guy. That chin went -- kept going and, well, oh.

(LAUGHTER)

DAVID LETTERMAN, TALK SHOW HOST: And also, Commerce Secretary Don Evans has also resigned. And this really took Bush by surprise. He had no idea we had a commerce secretary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a job? Department of Defense.

JON STEWART, TALK SHOW HOST: I'd like that.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You'd be good at that.

STEWART: I'd like to invade a couple of countries. New Zealand...

TOM HANKS, ACTOR: How did Colorado go red? I ski in Colorado.

CARVEY: You know he's in the White House dancing every night. He, he, he. Take that, Michael Moore. He, he, he.

LETTERMAN: And Pennsylvania Avenue right in front of the White House has been reopened. Yeah. However, it will remain closed to John Kerry.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Switch with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Switch with me. Please. You know, I can find more votes for you in Ohio. Trust me, I know where to look.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Thanks for joining us on INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

Coming up in 30 minutes on "RELIABLE SOURCES," a rare interview with Tom Brokaw, who tells Howard Kurtz how he's feeling days away from his retirement as NBC's top anchor.

And at noon Eastern on "LATE EDITION," Wolf Blitzer has an exclusive interview with Lynne Cheney about the vice president's health and the next four years. But for now, thanks for watching. I'm Bob Franken in Washington.

CNN LIVE SUNDAY continues right now.

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Aired November 14, 2004 - 10:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Now in the news. U.S. military officials report the deaths of 31 American troops in the latest fighting in Iraq centering on the battle for Falluja. Dozens have been wounded.
The military says it has now recaptured most of Falluja from the insurgents and that final cleanup operations continue against the small number of remaining insurgents.

More changes in the Palestinian leadership following the death of Yasser Arafat. Prime Minister Ahmed Qorei has been named to replace Arafat on the Palestinian National Security Council and presidential elections will be held before January 9th to pick a new leader.

In this country Vice President Dick Cheney tells reporters "I feel fine." He left the hospital yesterday after undergoing tests following shortness of breath. Cheney has suffered four hear attacks over the years. His latest medical check shows no signs of any heart trouble. We'll have a live report in about 30 minutes.

Now back to Bob Franken for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

BOB FRANKEN, HOST: INSIDE POLITICS today. Changes in the Bush administration -- who's in, who's out. A look at the president's key players headed into a second term.

The high court could soon be in, and the stage could be set for some high drama. Joining us a man who is often mentioned as a possible Supreme Court nominee.

And for the first time former democratic presidential nominee Michael Dukakis discusses the election results and the future of the Democratic Party. All of that straight ahead.

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington. This INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

FRANKEN: I know you're counting the days. Only 67 days to go until the presidential inauguration. Hello and welcome. I'm Bob Franken in Washington. Politics doesn't take the weekend off so, neither do we.

We begin with our top story. Vice President Dick Cheney walked out of George Washington University Medical Center yesterday afternoon after undergoing tests for shortness of breath. His cardiologists says the vice president probably has an upper respiratory infection, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but he shows no signs of heart problems or pneumonia.

Cheney has a history of heart related ailments and has suffered four heart attacks in the past. As Cheney left the hospital with his wife Lynne, Mrs. Cheney waved to reporters and said, "Sorry we ruined your Saturday." Lynne Cheney will discuss her husband's health today in an exclusive interview on "LATE EDITION" with Wolf Blitzer. That's coming up at noon eastern nine Pacific time.

So, let's get an update now from CNN's Elaine Quijano at the White House.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you Bob. No word of any change thins morning. But as you said, the vice president yesterday was complaining of shortness of breath as well as a cough. So on the advice of his cardiologist the vice president went to George Washington University Hospital, as you said, to undergo some precautionary tests. He was accompanied by his wife Lynne Cheney as well as his daughter Liz.

Now Mr. Cheney did spend several hours there before heading home. And in a statement released by his cardiologist yesterday the cardiologist Dr. Jonathan Reiner saying that "Test ruled out any cardiac cause of the vice president's symptoms. Tests also ruled out pneumonia and other pulmonary causes. The vice president likely has a viral upper respiratory infection.?

Now aides do say that the vice president had been suffering from a cold in recent days, after coming back from his annual hunting trip in South Dakota. Mr. Cheney, as you know, has been campaigning or had been campaigning quite vigorously in the month and especially the weeks leading up to the election even making a stop, as you see there, in Hawaii just before election day.

His heart troubles stretch back to 1978 when he had the first of four heart attacks at the age of 37. He's also had quadruple bypass surgery, a stint and also what Mr. Cheney calls a pacemaker plus was implanted. That device monitors and regulates, if needed, his heart rhythm. But again doctors have ruled out any heart trouble.

In the meantime there is another story that is developing. This one unrelated, but developing in published reports having to do with internal turmoil at the Central Intelligence Agency. Now on Friday the number two person there, John McLaughlin the deputy director announced that he would be retiring. That in and of itself is not a surprise.

But both the "Washington Post" and the "New York Times" are reporting that tensions within the CIA are mounting between the president's choice to head up the agency Porter Goss and some long time career strife. The articles are citing unnamed former intelligence officials as saying that officers aren't quite sure what to make of Porter Goss just yet. The CIA is not commenting but others point out that changes are always difficult in any agency.

But of course this is particularly important because this comes at a time when the president has said that reforming the intelligence community is a priority. So we will wait to see how that plays out. But the president for his part this morning attended church across the street along with wife Laura. He has a busy week ahead of him, Bob. He will be attending the dedication of the Clinton Presidential Library in Arkansas before heading to Chili for the annual AZPEC meeting. A meeting with Asian and Pacific leaders to talk about economic issues.

FRANKEN: And of course Elaine it's fair to say that Europe would not be described as a red state. I suspect that we're going to see quite a bit of anger when he appears there. What is the white House saying about that?

QUIJANO: At this particular point what they are saying is that the president will continue to try and reach out. We saw this on Friday when the president met with the British prime minister here. The president wanting to put forth the image, if you will, that he is trying to reach out. And so this very much will be an opportunity to do that as well, to show that despite the divisions that occurred with the Iraq war and the run up to the Iraq war and how that is carried out. The president now wanting to go back to those countries, perhaps try and mend some fences.

Bob.

FRANKEN: Than you, Elaine. And consistent with that, the issue of the middle east peace took on a new focus in Washington this week after the death of Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat. British Prime Minister Tony Blair also paid a visit to the White House.

President Bush and Prime Minister Blair suggested that Arafat's death has created a new opportunity for talks about a Palestinian state. Mr. Bush says he'd like to see it done within four years. And Blair had this to say about the issue this morning on NBC's "Meet the Press."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: As a political challenge I think it is the toughest we face and I think it's vitally important because the single biggest blow that we could deal to the terrorists along with democracy in Afghanistan, democracy in Iraq is to take away this cause on which they prey and they feed and deliver a viable and a democratic Palestine alongside a secure and democratic Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: President Bush says he hopes the new Palestinian leaders will embrace the notion of a democratic states. The president had regarded Arafat as the primary obstacle to peace with Israel.

And now turning to Congress. Members of both the House and the Senate return to Washington next week for a lame duck session of the 108th Congress coming back this week. And our congressional correspondent Ed Henry takes a look at what it might and might not get accomplished. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The campaign and the party are over so it's back to work for Congress, which returns for a lame duck session Their first priority, passing a stack of spending bills to keep the government from shutting down. But don't expect too much else.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: What's the point of doing a lot now? You're going to have more troops to be able to do something next year. All they want to do in this lame duck session is the minimum necessary and get out of town.

HENRY: With a stronger hand next year they'll tackle major issues like Social Security reform and an overhaul of the tax code.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: Two thousand and five is a critical opportunity for us to define our majority, to move forward. The president has put some big items on the table

HENRY: In the lame duck session Republican leaders will try to pass the stalled highway bill. There's also been some progress on 911 intelligence reform. But Democrats fear creation of a national intelligence director may be delayed until next year when Republicans will have greater clout to cut a deal more favorable to the Pentagon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It would be a tragedy and it would dangerous to our country if we do not pass the 9/11 Commission legislation in the lame duck session.

HENRY: The Treasury Department has asked Congress to raise the nation's $7.4 debt ceiling by $690 billion. Democrats want to force a vote now in an effort to embarrass the Bush administration.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We should begin addressing the problem of the deficit now and not later. We shouldn't kick the can down the road.

HENRY (on camera): Also on the agenda, Senator Arlen Specter will go behind closed doors with fellow Republicans to explain his comments on judicial nominations. But an actual vote on Specter's fate as judiciary chairman is not expected until January.

Ed Henry, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: And this week new members of Congress make their way to Washington for freshman orientation. Think of it as rookie training camp. But up next we're going to be joined by two lawmakers who know their way around the corridors of Capitol Hill.

And later Bill Schneider sits down with another Democratic presidential nominee who also lost an election to a guy Bush. And of course that would be Michael Dukakis, who opens up in a candid interview in this week's "Story Behind the Story." And the results from election day 2004 are not even two weeks old, but some Democrats have already chosen their nominee for 2008. That's ahead in Campaign News Daily.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: This month's election not only produced a victory for President Bush it titled the balance of power even more in favor of the Republicans. And here to talk about the eternal power structure on Capitol Hill are two members of Congress.

We have Rahm Emanuel, a Democratic congressman from Illinois. He's with us from Chicago. And Tom Davis the Republican congressman is from Virginia and he's with us right here.

But I want to start with Congressman Rahm Emanuel in Chicago and I want to talk about the importance of Congress particularly now that the Democratic Party is weakened. Does it really become in your mind congressman a rubber stamp?

REP. RAHM EMANUEL (D), ILLINOIS: First of all, I think the American people do not want a Congress that's a lap dog. They want a Congress that's a watch dog. And if he Congress acts like a lap dog, there will be a reaction to that.

And on the issue of tax reform and Social Security and intelligence, our Democratic Party has a set of ideas. Take tax reform, for example, on that area, Bob. The president says that one of his principles is -- and Republicans say they want a revenue neutral, budget neutral tax reform. Our principle is that no tax reform should raise taxes on the middle class. And if that (UNINTELLIGIBLE), we could have a good discussion about that. The Democrats (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if your ideas are good, you're a relevant party.

FRANKEN: Those issues were fought and the Democrats lost in the election that just was held. Let's ask about the budget realities now, Congressman Davis. The truth of the matter is that when Congress comes back it's going to have to start making some very painful cuts and the Democrats are going to say that's because of the fiscal policies of the Republicans.

REP. TOM DAVIS (R), VIRGINIA: Well it's not. It's economic issues. It's the fact that entitlement programs continue to grow and we've got some tough decisions to make. But I think the voters recognize that they want the Republicans in charge. For 20 of the last 24 years we've had divided governments. This is the first time a regime that has been reelected to control the House, the Senate and the presidency since 1964. It's quite a statement on behalf of the America people. I think they wanted to break the gridlock and give us a chance to govern.

FRANKEN: Isn't this really a poke in the eye congressman to the Democrats, Congressman Emanuel?

EMANUEL: I don't think so. I don't think it's a poke in the eye. I think we needed to make a case. First of all let me say this on the national of the presidential level. The Republicans say that never in the history of the country have we ousted a president during a time of war and I think the election proved that to be true and they were right before the election on that prediction.

And I think -- nonetheless, we ended up getting up 49 percent of the vote in this election. It wasn't 50. But also, I think, had we made the case on the economic arguments on the areas of where the economy was falling short for the middle class I think you would have had a different result. But it proved the premise of the Republican party which is that in a time of war they will not switch horses and that ended up being true on election day.

FRANKEN: Is that the only premise?

DAVIS: Of course not. Look, the Democrats have not gotten a majority of the vote for president since 1964. That's a fact. For three straight elections we've had -- no one has gotten a majority. We were able to break out of the mold this time. It was on a series of issues and I think the voters spoke decisively.

FRANKEN: But I have to get back to the point we discussed just a moment ago. The tough, tough, tough economic realities are about to come to the fore and is this going to be something that the Republicans are going to be willing to be with?

DAVIS: We have to deal with them. When you get a majority unfortunately you have the responsibility to govern and that means making a lot of tough decisions.

FRANKEN: But these...

DAVIS: The budget deficit has to be tackled. It's having ramifications on the dollar, worldwide inflation and everything else.

FRANKEN: That's a wonderful abstract, but we're talking about such things as possibly talking back on Amtrak very useful to people. We're talking about education cutbacks. We're talking about a variety of programs that people rely on.

DAVIS: I don't think, in my opinion, two thirds of federal spending is in entitlement programs. You are going to have to retool those programs in one shape or another. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) are Social Security, Medicare, welfare, all of these as well as discretionary spending.

Some of these programs have been operating on life support for a long time. They're not very efficient and we're going to have to make some tough hard decisions as we look forward. And I'm not sure where Congress will come down, but having 55 votes in the Senate -- the House has spoken on these issues before. Having 55 Republicans in the Senate now and being through a budget resolution, maybe we can implement some of these for the first time in decades.

FRANKEN: But of course speaking of the Senate, unlike the House it's the place where things slow down, and the only way to stop that is to have 60 votes for the...

DAVIS: Not under the budget resolution. The budget resolution is not filibusterable. You can do some of your tax reforms through that mechanism.

FRANKEN: But the Budget resolution gets caught up in some very procedural matters, as you know, and again the Senate can slow things down as you are well aware. But getting back now to a Congress that is supposed to be a separate branch of government, there's feeling now that it has become nothing more than a Greek chorus.

DAVIS: Traditionally when you have a presidential party controlling Congress it becomes a little more parliamentary. But I think Congress has its own priorities in some of these areas. Certainly our investigations -- our committees held four hearings on Halliburton. We're going to continue, I think, oversight of programs that are not working right and try to keep the executive branch on its toes and look for inefficiencies.

FRANKEN: but is it fair to say with a Republican Congress the president is pretty much going to have his way?

DAVIS: Well, I think he's going to feel a lot more comfortable moving his program through with a Republican Congress. I don't thin it's going to be a rubber stamp. I think you're going to have our leaders talking to the president. I think a lot of it will be worked out more harmoniously than if you had a president and a Congress from different parties as we've had for 20 of the last 24 years.

FRANKEN: And what about the concern, and we have to make this very short, that the Democrats are just going to be shut out of the process?

DAVIS: That's up to them. If they want to participate in the process and try to legislate and offer ideas. But so much of what they've done has been offering motions on ethics complaints, filibustering, those are really kind of destruction. And if they're going to marginalize themselves with that I think they'll be irreverent. To the extent they're in there at the table trying to negotiate I think they have some good ideas to offer and I think the county will be better off.

FRANKEN: Congressman Tom Davis, the Republican, you have the advantage of being here. Congressman Emanuel was in Chicago and the reason we haven't been talking to him for the last couple of minutes is because we had those wonderful technical problems.

But coming up next a man who has been mentioned as a possible Supreme Court nominee. We're going to be talking to former Solicitor General Ted Olson . And the late night comedians still love politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, LATE NIGHT COMEDIAN: John Kerry is considering running again in 2008. Then, you know, he could change his mind.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: One of the most important elements of the second Bush term is going to be the future makeup of the Supreme Court. The hold federal judiciary, as a matter of fact. The president is expected to have major influence on the direction of the court, selecting one or possibly more justices. Our guest now is somebody who once argued the Supreme Court -- before the Supreme Court on behalf of the U.S. government as solicitor general. Ted Olson joins me now for a look at the future of the high court.

Good morning, sir. Let's start by discussing a future with possibly a nomination of Ted. Olsen. You know that's being talked and now I'm going to give you a chance to do the ritual aw shucks...

THEODORE OLSON, FMR. U.S. SOLICITOR GENERAL: I Told you the other day, Bob, I said they were just doing that to scare small children.

FRANKEN: But of course, children don't have anything to do with confirming that person. Is it something that you've discussed at all? Have you pondered this?

OLSON: No I have not. This is not the sort of thing that anybody who has any sense at all really thinks about. I'm practicing in the private sector and I'm enjoying it. I'm perfectly happy to have that continue.

FRANKEN: Let's assume for the moment you would be somebody who would be discussed again by the Senate. When you were confirmed as solicitor general it was a close vote. You are somebody who is controversial, as is the man who was your boss, the outgoing Attorney General John Ashcroft Let's play part of his speech before the Federalist Society.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The risks of invasive oversight in micro management of executive functions by unelected courts have become all too familiar. Dangerous and constitutionally questionable judicial action raises the stakes for our nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: He was talking about activist courts, as you know, and he was saying hat they can danger the very security of the United States. Do you subscribe to this?

OLSON: Well, I think what General Ashcroft was talking about, and I was there for that speech, is the proper recognition by the judiciary of the judiciary's role in our government. We have a carefully separated system of powers. The president has special power when it comes to becoming commander-in-chief. Congress has a role and so do the courts, but their role has to be limited.

FRANKEN: Well you argued that in fact his role in this present time in matters of war should be virtually not existent.

OLSON: We didn't argue that. We argued that in connection with persons who are not citizens of the United States who were in custody abroad were not matters into which the judiciary should be involved.

FRANKEN: Let me quote your deputy obviously operating at your direction. "Where the government is on a war footing than you, mean the courts, have to trust the executive." He was responding to your question is there any judicial check. Now as you know you lost that battle before the Supreme Court.

OLSON: Well, what he was saying and we did say in the briefs, the government did say in its briefs and the government will say today that the judiciary has to defer to a large degree to the president when he is fighting a war. The framers of our Constitution felt that we had to have a unitary executive especially at the time of war. Because a group of judges has a very difficult time making command decisions at the time when troops are in peril.

FRANKEN: But the Supreme Court in is ruling, Sandra Day O'Connor said an unchecked system of detention carries the potential to become a means for oppression and abuse of others who do not present that sort of (UNINTELLIGIBLE>

OLSON: Bob no one is saying that there shouldn't be checks and there shouldn't be balances, but each branch has to respect the role and the realm of the other branch. That's what the government has been saying here. And it's particularly important in a time of war. Because commanders in the field have to make quick decisions and these decisions could mean life or death of our soldiers.

FRANKEN: Well let's talk about the type of person who the president would nominate for the Supreme Court. He uses the term strict constructionist, which as I understand it means you follow the Constitution literally with no regard for future (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

OLSON: Everybody has a different meaning of the term strict constructionist or judicial activism. What the president is talking about is a carefully -- careful recognition of the role of the judiciary. The Constitution says and legislation says what it says and courts have a responsibility to refer to the popular will when the legislature has acted up to a point. Not inconsistent with the Constitution, but up to a point.

FRANKEN: And let's talk about the issue that is number one when people think of this and that is he Roe vs. Wade decision. Were you a justice would you vote to overturn the Roe vs. Wade decision?

OLSON: I'm not going to go anywhere near that. The justices have rendered decisions in connection with the subject of abortion several times over. When ever an if ever that case comes before the Supreme Court the justices are going to have to look at that case in its context. There will be different facts and there will be different circumstances. That's far down the road.

FRANKEN: But there's still a fundamental -- a fundamental question. Does the woman have the right to choose to have an abortion?

OLSON: That's right and the justices have spoken on hat subject and when and if they have an opportunity to look at it again they will look at it in the context of what they have said before.

FRANKEN: OK. We will see if the next time we see you is before some sort of confirmation hearing. Ted Olson, solicitor general in the previous last four year term and now in private practice. Thank you very much.

OLSON: Thank you.

FRANKEN: Now we move on. We move on now to the question aid to the civilians of Falluja. Why the Red Crescent organization is going to have to wait just a little longer. That story is just ahead. And then after the election we all saw a map showing a sea of red and smaller patches of blue. If red really dominates America, why was the election so close? For that we're going to ask a panel of reporters on the record. And later, a hot line tip sheet with the possibility of a shake up at the DNC, the Democratic National Committee. We're going to find out who is on the most wanted list to head up the Democratic Party.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: "Now in the News," isolated fighting continues in Falluja, but a top Marine commander says insurgents can no longer count on the city as a sanctuary. Between 1,000 and 2,000 insurgents have been killed in a week of fighting, but officials don't know how many civilians have been killed or wounded. The latest figures from the military show 31 U.S. and six Iraqi troops killed during the offensive.

A convoy of aid trucks is being kept from heading into the heart of Falluja. Reuters reports a Marine officer says the Iraqi Red Crescent convoy of ambulances and other aid can't cross the bridge over the Euphrates River because it is still not safe. The trucks carrying food, blankets and medicine are waiting at Falluja's hospital for now.

Vice President Dick Cheney was in and out of a Washington hospital yesterday. Cheney went in for tests after experiencing some shortness of breath.

He went in to get checked out because of his history of heart problems. He has had four heart attacks over the years. Doctors ruled out any cardiac troubles at this time, but say Cheney probably has an upper respiratory infection.

I'm Tony Harris at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Now back to Bob Franken in Washington and more of INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

FRANKEN: And welcome back to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. And we've got a lot going on, figuring out what voters really think is important. The Democrats are trying to determine their future and the shock of a post-Arafat Middle East, to say nothing of that D.C. health care, translate the vice president and his cold. And here to go on the record, Jill Zuckman of "The Chicago Tribune"; CNN political analyst Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times"; and Matthew Cooper of "TIME" Magazine.

And let's start with you. Every time the vice president has a cold, everybody sneezes, but there's a really serious matter here. And this is somebody whose health is considered by many to be precarious.

MATTHEW COOPER, "TIME": No, absolutely. I mean, look, someone who's got a decades-long history of heart disease, has had several heart attacks and, you know, as recently as a couple years back, you know, it's very serious. And, you know, everyone -- this was just a reminder of how on edge everyone is about this.

RON BROWNSTEIN, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": You know who else has a catch in the throat every time Dick Cheney goes to the hospital? All the Republicans looking at 2008. Because this is an unusual situation where you have no obvious successor to a very popular president within his own party.

And the fact that Cheney is very unlikely to run in 2008 makes this a wide-open field. If, for any reason, they had to replace him at any point, it would be a very interesting question whether President Bush would put in someone who would have a leg up.

JILL ZUCKMAN, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Or put someone that he'd like to replace him, to be a successor.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, right.

FRANKEN: And just for the record, the 25th amendment says that the president would name a successor to be confirmed by a majority in both houses, so it's somewhat different. But we're talking about the problems of the Republican Party, and that's really probably not on the front burner.

We're talking about the problems, of course, of the Democratic Party. And I have to ask a very broad-brush question. Is the Democratic Party -- Democratic Party really losing its role as the major opposition party?

COOPER: Well, I think it's still alive. You know, it's got a pulse. I mean they...

FRANKEN: Albeit -- albeit...

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: But it's a diminished one. I mean, clearly, they had a lot of problems in this election. But, you know, there were signs of strength out there in some races. And, you know, I think they have the makings of a comeback. How they do it, I'm not so clear. ZUCKMAN: I think the problem is that they ran this race expecting that people would just be unhappy with Bush and say yes to something else. And what they needed to do was to be better defined as what they stood for as opposed to they stood for anything but Bush.

BROWNSTEIN: A couple things. First of all, they're in a better position on the presidency than they are in Congress at this point.

If you look at the 18 states that Kerry won, they've now won those 18 states four consecutive elections. They have a total of 248 electoral college votes. They're within range if they can broaden the map. And that is the big "if."

In Congress, the situation I think is much more difficult at this point. The Republicans are consolidating their control over the red states, the states that President Bush won.

He won 29 states twice. The Republicans now have 44 of those 58 Senate seats, which puts them on the brink of a majority even before they start in blue America.

I think Democrats have to find a way to expand the playing field, Bob. They have to find a candidate who can compete in more of these red states, because that would also provide some air cover to begin running more effectively for Congress in those states as well.

FRANKEN: Well, it was funny. Harry Reid had one of the sadder statements I've seen in a long time in today's "New York Times," when he said, "Well, we still have 45 votes in the Senate.". It's going in the wrong direction for them. Harry Reid...

ZUCKMAN: Well, it may be the wrong direction, but, you know, his point is you need 60 votes to get something done in the Senate. And the Democrats are not going to roll over and play dead. I think that is -- I think that's where they're going to be coming from.

BROWNSTEIN: Their problem is, it's very difficult to define yourself when you're out of power in all three -- in all three -- you know, the House, the Senate and the presidency. To some extent, their immediate prospects depend on overreaching or mistakes or events conspiring against the Republicans.

It probably is going to take, I think, a presidential nominee, and more likely a president, to really change this balance. Because the Democrats have to improve their image in these races. They're getting wiped out in the South and the Southwest.

FRANKEN: Well, let's do what we really like to do, and that's talk about us. Regrettably -- I mean, that's what we like to do most.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

FRANKEN: Regrettably, there are some embarrassments right now. The whole question about exit polls -- and I'll ask you to address that. But beyond that, the analysis and overanalysis and over- simplistic analyses that are coming out in the wake of the election, who wants to start with that one?

COOPER: Well, I think, you know, the media fell for these seven hours of the Kerry administration, you know.

(LAUGHTER)

COOPER: I mean, I was getting calls from Democrats who were taking credit for different things. You know, people were talking about the Kerry cabinet. It was -- you know, it showed how sort of delusional the press can be.

But look, you know, the methodologies of these things are still quite uncertain. It's more art than science. And it's probably not the last time we'll have uncertainty on elections.

FRANKEN: Do you think the first amendment was meant to say the freedom for the delusional press? I mean, it seems to be a problem here.

ZUCKMAN: Well, I have to give my editor credit. He sent some me exit polls that day. And at the top, he wrote, "Don't believe these. These numbers are wrong." Because he thought the numbers seemed so out of wack.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes, I was dubious. Look, by the end of this campaign, we were in a position where we were beyond the ability, I think, of polls to tell us who was going to win. Because the thing that polls have the most trouble with is figuring out who is going to vote. And President Bush's great success in this election was, in fact, changing the composition of the electorate.

Now, in the end, more Republicans voted than people expected. For the first time, Republicans equaled Democrats in a presidential election. More conservatives voted than people expected.

It was a lot like 1994, Bob, when there was a huge surge in the percentage of people who voted who consider themselves conservatives. And the polling in the end simply -- not only the exit polling, but the pre-election polling was not fully able to capture that.

COOPER: But he got people to switch, too. It wasn't just they brought out this base. And this is part of the debate that's going on now, did he just mobilize conservatives or get people to flip?

BROWNSTEIN: He did -- he did get -- he did make some inroads with Latinos, with married women. But you know, Matt, he still lost among Independents, he still lost among moderates. And in the end, he only switched two states.

I think that he did show some gains in the center. But by and large, he muscled this through by mobilizing an extraordinary vote among his base.

FRANKEN: We're making all these -- all these analyses of why the Democrats lost and why the Republicans won. Couldn't it really simply be that the Republicans did a better job at their job? That is to say, they had a better strategy, they organized better, and they had a message that was better, and that the Democrats kept unfolding under the withering attacks?

ZUCKMAN: You know, I think that those things are true, but I also think that presidential politics has a lot to do with personality. And I think voters felt more comfortable with President Bush, and I think they ultimately just weren't as at ease with Senator Kerry.

And I think that this -- what happened this election doesn't necessarily mean the same thing's going to happen four years ago, or that the Republicans will get the same results-plus. Things could change with new personalities in the race.

FRANKEN: So it's purely a personality contest?

BROWNSTEIN: No, I don't think so. But, look, there are two ways I could answer your questions.

If you look at Ohio as the place that decided this election, I think there's a lot to recommend what you said. The Democrats -- I think John Kerry did everything he set out to do in Ohio.

He increased the vote in Cleveland enormously. He won the northeast counties, sort of the Rust Belt counties. He won the big swing suburban counties: Franklin, Montgomery, Stark. But he was simply trumped by this enormous success that President Bush had in turning out a vote in southern and southwestern Ohio. Nationally, though, John Kerry, because of who he was, a Massachusetts senator with a generally liberal voting record, I think simply wasn't able to compete enough to reign.

FRANKEN: But the Democrats, according to a favorite political analyst of mine, while the Republicans, when a problem comes up, they organize and attack, the Democrats call a meeting. And it seems to be that that is the nature of the party right now.

COOPER: Well, I think that's right. And it's also a circular firing squad at the moment. They're all blaming each other. Liberals say we weren't liberal enough. You know, moderates say we weren't moderate enough. That's got to sort itself out.

FRANKEN: So I guess we're going to probably have to leave it at the Mark Twain statement, reports of the death of the Democratic Party are probably exaggerated. But we can also remember Will Rogers said he didn't belong to an organized party. He was a Democrat.

(LAUGHTER)

FRANKEN: And this was a great discussion this morning. Look forward to seeing you all again. Thank you very much.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks.

ZUCKMAN: Thank you. FRANKEN: But coming up next on INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY, a former presidential candidate sat down with our Bill Schneider to offer the Democratic Party some much-needed words of advice.

Plus, impersonating a presidential candidate's always good for a laugh. Even after the election.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: From whom should the Democrats seek advice after losing the election? Well, a possible starting point is someone who has been there before. And our Bill Schneider sat down with former presidential candidate Michael Dukakis for an exclusive "Story Behind the Story."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Democrats trying to deal with their loss should talk to someone who's been there, like Michael Dukakis, the Democrat who lost to a guy named Bush in 1988.

MICHAEL DUKAKIS (D), FMR. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's only when you go through a campaign like that that you realize just how difficult it is. Not only to address the issues, but to give people a sense of who you are. I mean, if I had a nickel for everybody who's come up to me since '88 and said, "You know, you're nothing like the guy we were watching on television..."

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis has an opinion about what happened to Kerry, who was once his lieutenant governor.

DUKAKIS: I don't think George Bush won this thing because of gay marriage or evangelical Christianity or any of this stuff. He won it, in my judgment, on the national security issue.

SCHNEIDER: Another former Democratic candidate has a different opinion.

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With regard to the gay marriage issue, it was an overwhelming factor in the defeat of John Kerry.

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis believes Democrats still have the advantage on economic issues. President Bush had better be mindful of that.

DUKAKIS: If the president of the United States thinks this election was a mandate for privatizing Social Security and cutting taxes for the super rich for the third time, he's delusional.

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis was criticized for failing to fight back when he was confronted with the Willie Horton attack ads in 1988. Some critics say Kerry made the same mistake this year when he was confronted with the Swift Boat Veterans ads.

DUKAKIS: He should have said to the president of the United States, "Stand up and tell those people to get those ads off the air. You know they're baseless. And if you don't, it goes directly to your character."

SCHNEIDER: Then Dukakis had second thoughts about whether or not he has standing to criticize Kerry.

DUKAKIS: Should he have done that? I'm the last guy in the world to try to make that judgment.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis told me he thought Kerry missed an opportunity. When Bush called him a "flip-flopper," Dukakis wondered why Kerry didn't do a better job painting Bush as a world champion flip-flopper on nation-building, on weapons of mass destruction, on illegal material in Africa, on the Department of Homeland Security, on the 9/11 Commission. All flip-flops -- Bob.

FRANKEN: Well, Bill, what strikes me about your report is the message that the Democrats seem to have made a lot of the same mistakes this time. Do you think that the third time might be a charm for them, if they'll learn something from this?

SCHNEIDER: Dukakis has had 16 years to ponder the mistakes he made, and he readily acknowledges them. And he points to some of the same mistakes exactly Kerry made.

Interestingly, Dukakis said what the Democrats need right now, he thinks, is a very dense grassroots campaign in 160,000 precincts all over the country. And I said, "Well, didn't the Democrat democrats have a big turnout campaign?" And he pointed out, parachuting people from outside a month before Election Day is not a grassroots campaign.

FRANKEN: Thank you, Bill. Bill Schneider in Los Angeles today.

And now we're going all the way across country. And in a moment, we'll talk about the state of Florida. We're always talking about the state of Florida. And it continues its bizarre election rituals. We'll try and make heads or tails of it "Campaign News Daily."

And we'll find out who is battling for the chance to head up the Democratic Party. That's coming up next on INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: Well, the speculation about the new leader of the Democratic Party is the focus of today's "Hotline Tipsheet" with Chuck Todd, the editor-in-chief of "The Hotline," which is an insider's political briefing produced daily by "The National Journal."

We pretty much know who it's not going to be for very long the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Terry McAuliffe.

CHUCK TODD, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE HOTLINE": Absolutely. Well, I think there's going to be an election sometime in early February, is the way the rules go. It will be just after the inauguration. And there seems to be a coalescing around sort of three names you hear the most of who might be interested. And one is the former governor from Vermont, Howard Dean, former presidential candidate. And then you've got Tom Vilsack out of Iowa, current governor. And then Harold Ickes, who's sort of an insider, ran one of the 527s.

And it seems to be this movement almost circulating around Vilsack. That if Vilsack does want this thing, he could sort of coalesce all the different parts of the Democratic Party sans the Dean wing of the Democratic Party. Dean has a big following on the Internet.

Two of the problems for Vilsack and Dean, they would both have to take a pledge probably not to run for president themselves, and both I think would kind of want to run for president themselves. And then with Vilsack, he's not -- he couldn't be a full-time chairman because he's still governor. And then he would have to bring somebody else in to help run the day-to-day.

FRANKEN: Well, the other problem that some critics say is that he is also somebody who blends into the woodwork. He's inoffensive.

TODD: Well, he's inoffensive, but he comes from a red state. Iowa got flipped. Iowa's a red state, reddish state.

He comes from that area. He's a Catholic. He's, you know, somebody that might be able to speak to, you know, bring a Midwestern message.

I mean, the problem with the DNC is not mechanics. Mechanically, the Democratic Party did fine. They got all of the known vote that they needed out.

It's message is their biggest problem. And so a pick of Vilsack would be a pick of message over mechanics.

FRANKEN: Well, the Democratic Party seems to be suffering from a message in need of improvement. You have those who are the core constituency of the Democrats. Those are the ones who are the labor unions, the oppressed, the disaffected, frankly.

You have the groups that were represented by Bill Clinton, the Democratic leadership conference. And now you have this third group, what is it, the Third Wave or something?

TODD: Third Wave, yes, I know. All these -- everybody's starting up their own group. And I think that that's a problem that the next DNC chair has to deal with, is the fact that there are going to be -- every ideological spectrum of the Democratic Party is going to have their own umbrella group, and that's a serious problem.

FRANKEN: But isn't that the fundamental problem of the Democrats? That it's really about 25 different systems?

TODD: It is. And the coalition-building. And that's -- you know, that's why any DNC chair has to realize they're going to get sucked into this vortex of this small constituency group politics that the Republicans just don't have to deal with.

FRANKEN: Well, Bill Clinton was able to do something about that when he pulled everybody together under the auspices, as I said, of the DLC, which critics charge is really a wing of the Republican Party.

TODD: The good thing that Clinton did was able to win elections for himself. The bad thing, though, is that this bridging that he did actually ended up causing more problems for the party structurally underneath.

He came into office, they controlled everything. He left office, they controlled nothing. So it's not exactly the best legacy model to follow.

FRANKEN: We have very little time. But is it your impression the Democratic Party's going to be able to -- pardon the term -- right itself?

TODD: Well, if you look at what happened to the Republicans in 1964, their biggest disastrous loss yet, four years later they win the presidency. So I think sometimes we go a little overboard in this fight. But I think the next year's going to be kind of ugly in the Democratic Party as they sort itself out, and then maybe by '06 we'll be ready to be a unified umbrella group again.

FRANKEN: So we'll have plenty to talk about.

TODD: Absolutely.

FRANKEN: And "The Hotline" is insider's political briefing produced daily by "The National Journal." Thank you very much for being with us. And you can go on line to thenationaljournal.com for subscription information, you political junkies out there.

But let's move on now and check the headlines in the Sunday edition of our "Campaign News Daily."

Education Secretary Rod Paige is among those being discussed to be added to the name added to the list of cabinets who are about to pull out. According to administration officials, though, it is not known if Paige has submitted his letter of resignation and whether Bush will accept it. Attorney General John Ashcroft and Commerce Secretary Don Evans have already resigned their posts for the coming term.

The official launch of votehillary.org has been set for January 1st of next year. The Draft Hillary Rodham Clinton for president campaign is not affiliated with the senator's office, says the senator's office. But the Draft Hillary team says more information about the committee and its endorsements will come in late December.

New Mexico is still undecided on who won the election. And it may not be able to declare a winner until November 23rd, once the last county has finished its recount. So will it be Bush or will it be Kerry? And will we care with five electoral votes? In any case, we'll just have to wait to find out.

And in Florida, a city council election was decided by a coin toss. Both the candidates received the same number of votes in the November 2 election. After two recounts and still no winner, they resorted to tossing a coin.

The flipped coin landed on tails, giving 77-year-old GP Sloan the victory. So perhaps Florida has finally figured out how to do this.

Well, the election might be over, but that does not mean that the late-night comedians cannot still make their jokes. We stay up late so you don't have to. The best political punch lines when INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FRANKEN: For a brief period on election night it looked like the late-night comics would no longer have George Bush to kick around anymore. But not to worry, he won. If you call this winning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA CARVEY, COMEDIAN: I mean, Kerry was a weird looking dude. I mean, Herman Munster had nothing on this guy. That chin went -- kept going and, well, oh.

(LAUGHTER)

DAVID LETTERMAN, TALK SHOW HOST: And also, Commerce Secretary Don Evans has also resigned. And this really took Bush by surprise. He had no idea we had a commerce secretary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need a job? Department of Defense.

JON STEWART, TALK SHOW HOST: I'd like that.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You'd be good at that.

STEWART: I'd like to invade a couple of countries. New Zealand...

TOM HANKS, ACTOR: How did Colorado go red? I ski in Colorado.

CARVEY: You know he's in the White House dancing every night. He, he, he. Take that, Michael Moore. He, he, he.

LETTERMAN: And Pennsylvania Avenue right in front of the White House has been reopened. Yeah. However, it will remain closed to John Kerry.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Switch with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sorry, what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Switch with me. Please. You know, I can find more votes for you in Ohio. Trust me, I know where to look.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Thanks for joining us on INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY.

Coming up in 30 minutes on "RELIABLE SOURCES," a rare interview with Tom Brokaw, who tells Howard Kurtz how he's feeling days away from his retirement as NBC's top anchor.

And at noon Eastern on "LATE EDITION," Wolf Blitzer has an exclusive interview with Lynne Cheney about the vice president's health and the next four years. But for now, thanks for watching. I'm Bob Franken in Washington.

CNN LIVE SUNDAY continues right now.

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