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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Secretary Powell, CIA Deputies Resign; Victory Declared in Falluja

Aired November 15, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight in Washington, deputies and senior officials in the CIA's clandestine service resign. Is the new head of the CIA cleaning up or messing up?

Tonight, I'll talk with Senator John McCain and former CIA director James Woolsey.

REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MI), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: If these individuals didn't feel comfortable with the direction that Porter is going, they did the right thing, and they left the agency.

DOBBS: Secretary of State Colin Powell today resigned. Was he pushed out of the cabinet?

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It has always been my intention that I would serve one term.

DOBBS: President Bush is likely to make several Supreme Court nominations in his second term. Tonight I'll talk with the country's best-known victim of partisan obstructionism: former Supreme Court nominee, Robert Bork.

And in the face of an unprecedented immigration crisis, tonight we focus on the efforts to crack down on Americans who are breaking the law, hiring illegal aliens. Our special report.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 15. Here now, for an hour of news, debate, and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, upheaval in the top ranks of the Central Intelligence Agency and a new round of resignations from the president's cabinet.

Secretary of State Colin Powell is one of four cabinet members who announced their resignations today. The others are the secretaries of agriculture, education and energy.

And at the CIA today, the two senior-most members of the directorate of operations resigned. National security correspondent, David Ensor, reports on the CIA shake-up. White House correspondent Dana Bash reports on the cabinet resignations.

We go to David Ensor first -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, depending on how you look at it, it's either turmoil at the top of the CIA or long overdue change at the top.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): After angry exchanges with aides to the new director of central intelligence, Porter Goss, the top two men in the CIA's clandestine service resigned. They are Deputy Director for Operations, Stephen Kappes, and his No. 2, Michael J. Sulick.

Kappes is said to be the man who convinced Libya's leader, Moammar Gadhafi, to give up his weapons of mass destruction.

HOEKSTRA: If they didn't feel comfortable with the direction Porter is going, they did the right thing and left the agency.

ENSOR: Intelligence insiders say the Bush White House has ordered Goss to purge the agency of officials who may have been behind leaks of damaging information during the presidential campaign about Iraq policy and the war on terrorism.

But Kappes and Sulick are not accused of leaking and are highly respected.

REP. JANE HARMAN (D-CA), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: The direction set by this highly partisan, inexperienced management team which Porter Goss brought over with him to the CIA may cause the wrong people to resign in protest and may hurt our efforts to win the war on terror.

ENSOR: The resignations come after CIA Deputy Director John McLaughlin, Friday, announced his departure soon, though he's said it is not over disagreement with Goss.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CIA DEPUTY DIRECTOR: My attitude towards the intelligence community and, I guess my alma mater, the CIA, is one of tough love.

ENSOR: All agree former Congressman Goss, himself a CIA veteran, has a mandate to make changes at the agency in the wake of criticism over intelligence shortcomings before the 9/11 attacks and before the Iraq war.

But some officials say Goss' closest aides want to micromanage decisions, such as who should be CIA station chiefs around the world.

MICHAEL SCHEUER, FORMER CIA ANALYST: I think just from my own career experience, it's a bad thing. The deputy director of operations, really, is in charge and ought to have the people working for him who are -- who have his confidence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: It will be up to Goss how the CIA functions now, but past directors learned the hard way that the clandestine service finds ways of resisting change that it does not believe in -- Lou.

DOBBS: It looks like this covert service, David, is learning that management has a way of insisting on direction. Wouldn't you say that's also the case?

ENSOR: That is certainly true. This is a director who, as I said, has a mandate for change. Clearly, there were problems in the intelligence agency over the last few years. He's got a mandate to change things. And he clearly wants to.

DOBBS: Is there a sense, among your sources, David, that there is any discomfort within the CIA itself about the fact there has been so much politicization of the process, the leaks and so forth that took place in the -- at the height of their presidential campaign?

ENSOR: Well, there is a lot of discomfort about that. People who work at the CIA generally don't like to see their names and agency in the newspaper any more than necessary. They certainly were uncomfortable with what happened during the campaign.

At the same time, there's a lot of unease about where things are headed and whether there's going to be clear leadership from the administration.

DOBBS: David Ensor, we thank you very much. Our national security correspondent.

Later here, I'll talk with Senator John McCain, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra and former CIA director, James Woolsey, three of the most knowledgeable people in Washington, about the CIA. They join me to talk about the shake-up and what it means for the direction of the war on terror.

The Bush cabinet shake-up today continued. Secretary of State Colin Powell, the most prominent of four cabinet members to announce resignations. Senior administration officials say national security adviser Condoleezza Rice is Powell's most likely successor.

White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): the first member of the president's national security team to bow out says it was an honor to serve, but it's time to go.

POWELL: It has always been my intention that I would serve one term.

BASH: The secretary of state, who officially resigned Friday, was among the first tapped four years ago. For a president coming into office with no foreign policy experience, the retired four-star general offered credibility on the world stage, and he put it on the line.

POWELL: Saddam Hussein has not verifiably accounted for even one teaspoonful of this deadly material.

BASH: Most notably to sell the Iraq war to the U.N. with information later discredited.

Some administration officials say Powell wanted to stay a few months, especially with a new post-Arafat opening in the Mideast. But just last week, the president was notably vague when asked about his future.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm proud of my secretary of state. He's done a heck of a good job.

BASH: Powell carefully told reporters he never asked to stay, and sources say Mr. Bush was eager to assemble his new team.

Bush officials say Powell's successor will almost certainly be Condoleezza rice, the president's national security adviser, and one of his most trusted aides.

The secretary of state was one of four cabinet resignations announced Monday. The others: Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, Education Secretary Rod Paige, and Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman.

Filling key posts with loyal confidantes appears to be a Bush strategy aimed at fending off problems that historically plague second-term presidents.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And Lou, as we just -- you just heard, we understood earlier that Condoleezza Rice was almost certain to be picked for the secretary of state post that Colin Powell is leaving.

We're now told by White House officials that it is going to be announced, perhaps as early as tomorrow, that Condoleezza Rice will be tapped to be the new secretary of state, the second female secretary of state, if she is, of course, confirmed by the Senate -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Dana. Dana Bash.

Turning now to Iraq, a top Iraqi government minister today declared victory in the battle for Falluja. More than 1,200 insurgents have been reported killed. One thousand insurgents were captured.

In Fallujah itself, U.S. and Iraqi troops continue to hunt down remaining anti-Iraqi forces.

Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, reports -- Jamie. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Commanders on the ground said that Fallujah is now 100 percent under U.S. and Iraqi control. But he made a distinction, saying that doesn't mean that the city has been cleared.

In fact, the U.S. is still finding pockets of resistance among some of the insurgents who are still holed up in the city. They're doing what they call now back clearing. That is, having pushed all the way from the north to the south, using forces along the southern border as a blocking action. They moved all the way through, and now they're moving back, looking for remnants of the insurgents.

As you said, commanders are not making an exact count of the enemy dead, but they do say it's over 1,000. Meanwhile, about 37, 38 U.S. troops have been killed in action, more than 320 wounded. Iraqi forces, six killed and 28 wounded. Some of those are returning to action.

But the real challenge here for the U.S. is to get aid on the ground, begin reconstruction, and show the residents of Fallujah that the insurgents are not coming back.

The U.S. commander who briefed reporters at the Pentagon today, Colonel Michael Regner, said that this was not a case, as in Vietnam, where they had to destroy the city to save it. In fact, he said they used very precise targeting techniques and tried to save as many of the structures as possible.

But he did say that it's going to be some time before the city is back up and running and totally under Iraqi control -- Lou.

DOBBS: And Jamie, any indication as to the next targets for the U.S. and Iraqi military?

MCINTYRE: Well, the U.S. is still having problems in Ramadi, which is the provincial capital of this area...

DOBBS: Right.

MCINTYRE: ... where the U.S. has forces on the ground, but does not, again, control the whole city. And also in Mosul where there's been a resurgence of the insurgents to the north.

So those are likely next targets. In fact, they're places where military action is under way now.

DOBBS: To put it straightforwardly, this is obviously a tremendous initiative taken on the part of the U.S. and the Iraqi army. Now, is it an initiative -- initiative and a momentum that they intend to maintain and to extend?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's critical that they maintain the momentum here, because if -- if Falluja's allowed to back slide, at all, if insurgents are allowed to come back in and set up operations there, then that will take away -- the military victory will turn into a political setback. So they're aware of the stakes in Falluja, and there's a lot of planning going into trying to make sure that doesn't happen.

DOBBS: And, Jamie, with four Cabinet resignations today, no mention of the plans for or by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. What are you hearing?

MCINTYRE: Well, Rumsfeld's aides believe that he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Now Rumsfeld himself says he has not discussed his future -- even discussed it -- with the president at all.

The indication is that President Bush is happy to have him serve, and Rumsfeld, at 72, is showing no less enthusiasm for the job.

So the thinking here is that he'll probably stay at least another year or so to try to continue his transformation of the Pentagon and oversee the operations in Iraq.

DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Thank you, Jamie.

A shocking development tonight in the multibillion-dollar United Nations oil-for-food scandal. Senate investigators say Saddam Hussein stole more than twice as much money as had been first thought. This raises new questions about the role of the United Nations in this scandal and the U.N.'s refusal to cooperate with U.S. congressional investigators.

Richard Roth reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Prime witness Charles Duelfer was just glad to be alive, his first public appearance since escaping an assassination attempt in Baghdad which killed two American servicemen.

CHARLES DUELFER, DIRECTOR, IRAQ SURVEY GROUP: Without their actions, I -- I doubt whether I would be here today.

ROTH: Topping earlier findings by Duelfer, this Senate subcommittee sharply raised the amount of suspected profits for Saddam Hussein to over $21 billion, some through oil-for-food corruption and a large chunk by oil smuggling through Syria and Jordan.

SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: The question must be raised as to what happened to Saddam's billions and are they being used today to fuel an insurgency that has taken the lives of over a thousand American and coalition servicemen and women and thousands of our Iraqi allies.

ROTH: Senators are still furious with the United Nations for not cooperating with congressional investigators. The U.N. prefers its own probe, citing U.N. limits on sharing internal data to member countries. SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: That is no excuse for the United Nations not to have cooperated with this subcommittee's investigation, and I wanted to join with Senators Coleman and Levin in urging the United Nations to cooperate fully and promptly.

ROTH: U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan spoke to two senators over the weekend to say the U.N. is not obstructing, but Senator Coleman says more action is needed by the U.N.

Annan delayed a trip to Africa to apparently focus on U.S.-U.N. relations which have sunk once again because of disagreements over Iraq and the split on the oil-for-food investigation.

Duelfer again described Iraqi ministry lists showing Russian and French politicians receiving oil vouchers which, when sold, could net millions.

The former director of the U.N.'s oil-for-food program, Benin Savan, was on the list, but no proof he profited has yet been documented.

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Do you know that Benin Savan received a voucher? That's my question.

DUELFER: The Iraqis firmly believe that.

LEVIN: Do you know that he did? This is your...

DUELFER: I would conclude with high confidence from the data that the Iraqis provided, from all that we saw, that that happened.

ROTH: The senators wondered how the corruption could take place under the eyes of the U.N. and its member countries. They may have known all along, but, in the interest of unity on sanctions and Iraq, decided to look the other way.

The U.N. is now bracing for threats from Congress to reduce financial contributions to the U.N. organization. U.N. officials say they are waiting for Paul Volcker, the head of the U.N. independent panel, to decide if he wants to share more information with the congressional probers -- Lou.

DOBBS: And how soon is it expected that Paul Volcker will have any kind of report?

ROTH: His first report is scheduled for January. The main report, the middle of next year. Many in Congress say that's too long to wait on such a sensitive, important matter.

DOBBS: And why is the United Nations, Richard, taking the position that it cannot share this information when, for months, its position has been that it could not investigate the oil-for-food scandal because that was up to member countries? Isn't this in stark contradiction to deny the U.S. Senate?

ROTH: Well, the U.N. is sticking with the story that they cannot share information with all 191 parliaments, even though, in the past, the U.N. has cooperated with congressional investigators on some other issues. The U.N. is caught between the Bush administration and the Congress, which is much more involved in this story and wants action.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And just as a point of reference here, if I may, Richard, there aren't 191 parliaments. If that were the case and we were talking about 191 democracies, perhaps things might go more smoothly at the United Nations.

Richard Roth, as always, thank you.

Still ahead here, a major shift in the balance of power on Capitol Hill. Seven newly elected Republican senators laying out their agenda for the new Congress. We'll have that report for you.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans defying the law every day, hiring illegal aliens. Tonight, we'll have a special report for you on the federal government's failure to enforce the law and to stop the invasion of illegal aliens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A disturbing report tonight on possible al Qaeda plans to smuggle nuclear materials into this country through Mexico. According to the latest issue of "TIME" magazine, al Qaeda may have plans to target the United States with weapons of mass destruction.

U.S. security officials tell "TIME" magazine that al Qaeda plans to smuggle nuclear materials from Europe into Mexico and from there across the border into the United States. The information reportedly coming from a key al Qaeda operative who was captured in Pakistan.

In this country, a crime is committed every day by countless American families and businesses. They are rarely prosecuted. The crime: the employment of illegal aliens, but the law that prevents that is poorly written and almost never enforced.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Atlanta, 18 indicted for hiring hundreds of illegal aliens to run gas stations and convenience stores. Texas, an employment firm indicted for hiring illegals at the factory that makes meals for the military. Kansas, 44 illegals arrested at a factory that makes cooling towers for nuclear power plants.

Yes, the government does crack down on the hiring of illegal aliens, but not often enough to make most employers think twice before hiring illegals.

PHILIP MARTIN, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAVIS: It's true that there are occasional enforcement efforts, but it's often much like on a highway when many people are speeding. Yes, one person may get pulled over, but that doesn't necessarily slow everyone else down. VILES: Most cases do not lead to prosecution of employers because the law on hiring illegals is famously weak. The government lost its last big trial on this against Tyson foods.

WAYNE CORNELIUS, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN DIEGO: Congress deliberately passed a toothless employer sanctions law that contained a gaping loophole that enables employers to get off scot-free if they have just kept their paperwork in order. They don't have to verify the authenticity of documents provided by job applicants.

VILES: The number of illegal worker cases referred for prosecution has dropped sharply from 182 in 1999 to 21 in 2002. Immigration officials say prosecutions are now on the rise, but they also say their top priority has to be Homeland Security, which often means cooperating with employers at airports and nuclear power plants.

DEAN BOYD, IMMIGRATIONS AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: The work sites that we're looking at are a little different from the ones we were targeting before 9/11. Work sites that have a nexus to national security -- those have to be our priority, but, at the same time, we're not ignoring the traditional work site enforcement cases.

VILES (on camera): There is little evidence that Congress really wants to crack down on this anyway. The administration this year asked for $23 million in additional funding for workplace enforcement. Congress provided only $5 million.

Peter Viles, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And that brings us to tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe the federal government needs to better enforce the laws against the hiring of illegal aliens? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com or cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later.

Still ahead here tonight, how congressional Republicans are promising to use their growing majority in both the House and Senate. Our special report.

And then high-level resignations from the CIA. Senator John McCain will be here to tell us why he says a shake-up is needed -- desperately needed.

And House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra says much more should be done. Both Senator McCain and Congressman Hoekstra are my guests tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Congress today returning for a lame-duck session following the stunning Republican gains in the general election. Congressional Republicans proudly introducing their new colleagues and talking about their agenda for the new Congress.

Joe Johns reports from Capitol Hill. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Seven Republican senators are left, six of them current or former House members and one, a former Cabinet secretary, all determined to put a conservative stamp on the Congress, representing a significant shift in the political center of gravity.

SEN. ELECT TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: You know, our biggest problem in this country is people campaign on promises and then don't try to carry them out, let alone carry them out.

JOHNS: Of course, they won't even be sworn in until January, but their mere presence on Capitol Hill says something about the direction of the next Congress. All pledged bipartisanship, but said Democrats will have to recognize the new political reality.

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: Messages have been sent, lessons have been learned.

JOHNS: At the top of the freshman agenda, health-care and Social Security reform, getting floor votes for conservative judges, cutting taxes and reining in government spending. However, this group will have to sit on the sidelines while the 108th Congress in its last breath wrestles with a mammoth spending bill and a bill to reform the nation's intelligence community.

After weeks of stalled talks, House Republicans Monday reporting progress on the intelligence bill, including the sticky issue of giving a new national intelligence director the power to handle the purse strings.

REP. PETE HOEKSTRA (R), MICHIGAN: I think on budget authority, budget control, we may have an agreement on language.

JOHNS: Democrats are warning that failure to finish the entire bill now means the Congress will have to start all over again next year.

REP. JANE PELOSI (D), CALIFORNIA: The requirement is within the next 24 hours to come to agreement on a consensus product. If we don't get it now and it dies this week, it won't be back in the next Congress.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: The Congress also has to tackle the issue of raising the government's debt ceiling again. Democrats want an up or down vote on that. Republicans don't. Either way, the Treasury Department says something has to be done about it -- Lou.

DOBBS: And something always is.

Joe Johns -- thank you very much -- reporting tonight from Capitol Hill. Coming up next here, that shake-up at the highest levels of the CIA. Senate Intelligence Committee member John McCain, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra, former CIA Director James Woolsey join me to talk about the future of the CIA.

And the future of the Supreme Court. President Bush likely to name several nominees over the next several years. I'll be joined by former Supreme Court nominee, the man whose nomination started the partisan rancor over judicial nominations, Judge Robert Bork.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In a moment, I'll be talking with Senator John McCain who says the CIA is dysfunctional, but, first, let's look at some of the top stories tonight.

The Justice Department says the number of death sentences across the country dropped to the lowest level in 30 years last year. The department says it is the third straight year that the country's death-row population has declined. The number of executions also fell to 65 from 71.

Researchers at Johns Hopkins University are closer to identifying the cause of autism. A report released today shows a strong link between brain inflammation and autism. Researchers now say they may be able to create a test for autism and possibly a treatment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help us amend for Arnold and 12 million other Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: A movement has begun in California to allow foreign-born citizens, such as Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, to become president. Ads carrying that message started running today in California. The ads marked the first public demonstration of support for a constitutional amendment on the issue. This, of course, would benefit mightily Governor Schwarzenegger.

A high-level shake-up is under way tonight inside the CIA. As we reported, the two most senior members of the CIA's clandestine service today resigned. Senator John McCain is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and I asked him earlier if these changes are necessary to reform the agency, or if they're a sign of something else.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Well, I'm sorry that it's happening the way that it's happening. But, Lou, I've seen the House Intelligence Committee report about the CIA. I've seen the 9/11 Commission comments about the CIA, the Senate Intelligence Committee report. I serve on the Commission on Weapons of Mass Destruction, and there is no doubt that the CIA is dysfunctional and there needs to be significant and fundamental changes made.

That's upsetting some traditions, some old boy networks over there. And there are good people over there. But they have to change, and Porter Goss, I think, is the person to do it.

DOBBS: Porter Goss, his deputy, Patrick Murray, apparently some considerable reaction, as you know, Senator, to the way in which a number of the top level of deputies have been treated. Yet at the same time, apparently a number of the leaks that were basically, fundamentally anti-administration leaks in the months preceding the election, emanated from one or two or more of these very same people. What are you thoughts about that?

MCCAIN: My thoughts are that it gives one the reputation of not just a dysfunctional agency, but a rogue agency if the people who are supposed to be providing intelligence information to the president of the United States are leaking information that would affect the outcome of a presidential campaign. So I think that's very serious.

I also think that Porter Goss has made some mistakes. We all make mistakes. But all these leaks are coming from opponents of Porter Goss and his friends, not from them. Look, this is an old Washington game that's going on, but we cannot have a situation where the director of the CIA, when asked about Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, tells the president of the United States that it's a quote, "slam dunk," when nothing could have been further from the truth.

We need to fix this. And we're talking about vital, vital aspects of decision-making as far as national security is concerned. The stakes are very high. This isn't the U.S. Patent Office, Lou.

DOBBS: And as you point out, indeed, it is not. And that makes it all the more troubling when the former CIA director, George Tenet, says it will take five years to create an effective covert operation. Porter Goss, during his confirmation hearings, saying it may take longer. Is that, in point of fact, Senator McCain, acceptable when we're in the midst of a war against radical Islamist terrorism?

MCCAIN: Well, I can't go against their expertise, but I do know this. We know little more than we knew 10 years ago about Iran and North Korea today. We have more people sitting inside embassies waiting for people to come in and give them information than we have outside agencies -- embassies, trying to find out and collect vital information as far as intelligence is concerned.

There is a failed system, and we've got to go about it as quickly as we can as far as fixing is concerned, and do whatever is necessary. And if that means replacing some people, and if that means breaking some china, I'm sorry to say, but it's got to be done. DOBBS: And as you say, Porter Goss has made some mistakes here in the first seven weeks of his tenure. Is it your judgment that Porter Goss nonetheless has the full confidence and support of the president?

MCCAIN: I believe that all of us, when we go into a new job, may make mistakes. Overall, I'm very glad that he's there. I think that he enjoys -- I know that he enjoys the confidence of the president and the vice president of the United States. And this is a very, very tough business that he's in.

Look, we're trying to change a culture that has been in place for many, many years. And according to the 9/11 Commission, without any significant congressional oversight, and I think they are right.

DOBBS: There is seemingly every appearance and suggestion that Congress is asserting that oversight, that heightened oversight. In fact, is it?

MCCAIN: I'm afraid not. We tried to improve that oversight and failed miserably. In the words of former Senator Bob Kerrey, who served on the Intelligence Committee as well as the 9/11 Commission, the old bulls were more interested in protecting their turf around here than they were in national security.

There is still no improvement in congressional oversight.

DOBBS: And the possibility of seeing real progress on the 9/11 Commission recommendations?

MCCAIN: It's hard for me to believe that they're not going to come to some kind of agreement. This is too important. It's obviously a fight over budgetary authority, which is what it usually gets down to around this town, but they really need to resolve it. And then I hope the American people will demand congressional oversight, which we failed in our attempt to do and got very little coverage or publicity, I was disappointed to see.

DOBBS: Senator McCain, another shake-up obviously in the cabinet. Today, the top-ranking cabinet member, Secretary of State Colin Powell. Your thoughts?

MCCAIN: I revere and respect and love Colin Powell. I think he's one of the finest men that this nation has ever produced. I think he will continue to serve this nation in other capacities. It was well-known that he was probably going to leave. It's a tough job, and I'm sure he was tired.

DOBBS: Senator John McCain, we're glad you're not tired. Thanks for being here. Good talking with you.

MCCAIN: Thanks, Lou.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The CIA shake-up comes as members of the House and Senate meet for a final attempt to negotiate a massive reorganization of our intelligence agencies. Congressman Pete Hoekstra of Michigan is chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. He is one of four lawmakers leading those negotiations.

Congressman, thanks for being with us.

Let me ask you, Mr. Chairman, are those negotiations succeeding?

REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MI), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, we continue to make progress. We negotiated all of last week, continuing through the weekend. Discussions were ongoing today. And yeah, they are making progress. We don't have an agreement at this point, but I think we're hopeful that we're going to be able to iron out the differences yet between the House and the Senate and get a bill to our colleagues this week. But it's going to take quite a bit of work.

DOBBS: And I infer from what you're saying, Congressman, that there's some difficult negotiations ahead. Is it your judgment you'll have one of in this session, this lame-duck session?

HOEKSTRA: Well, I think that's what Senator Collins and Lieberman and my colleague here in the House, Jane Harman, that is what we are working for. We're trying to get this done in the next 24 to 36 hours.

DOBBS: And the result being just to take one element, a national intelligence director, who will have full budget authority, despite the objections of the Pentagon?

HOEKSTRA: That's exactly where we're moving towards. We want a national intelligence director with full budget authority. I think we're working towards an agreement that is going to be acceptable to the Pentagon. The president all along has said that he wants a national intelligence director with full budget authority. It's important we get a single person with a focus and direction for the intelligence community.

DOBBS: Well, there is a new direction being taken, obviously at the CIA by the man who held your post before you. Porter Goss, the CIA director, breaking china, in the words of Senator McCain. Is it well-placed china that he's breaking?

HOEKSTRA: Well, I think Senator McCain indicated, every analysis of the CIA over the last number of years have indicated that there does need to be reform, there need to be changes made. I've got every degree of confidence that Porter Goss is going through this transition from where we were to where we need to be. And it may be painful, but for those individuals who are uncomfortable with the direction that Porter wants to set, and they feel that they can't go there, I think that they're doing the honorable thing by stepping aside, rather than what happens so often in Washington, is the bureaucrats stay entrenched and then what they do is they use internal means to thwart the reforms and the changes that the new administration may be putting in place. These folks are do the right thing by stepping aside.

DOBBS: You think there will be more stepping aside at the CIA?

HOEKSTRA: That's always a possibility. I mean, again, the folks have to take a look at where Porter and the administration want to go, how they fit into those plans. Hopefully they can see the progress and the change that needs to take place, that they can keep their expertise at the CIA, and we can build on it and move forward.

DOBBS: Congressman Peter Hoekstra, we thank you for being with us, chairman of the House Intelligence Community.

HOEKSTRA: Thank you.

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question: Do you believe the federal government needs to better enforce laws against hiring illegal aliens? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com.

We'll have the results for you a little later in the show.

On a lighter note tonight, sheriff's deputies in Louisiana have solved an unusual crime involving some rather unconventional thieves. Beavers. Beavers found a bag of stolen cash from a video poker casino near Baton Rouge. The beavers used the cash to, what else, to build the world's most expensive beaver dam. Deputies found thousands of dollars in soggy bills weaved into the sticks and brush of a dam. The sheriff said the casino owners were elated to get the cash back, even if it was a little wet.

And Pfizer tonight has begun pulling two new ads for Viagra. That after the Food and Drug Administration said the "wild thing" ads, as they are called, promised more than the drug Viagra has been proved to deliver. The FDA also said the ads failed to mention, unfortunately, some major negative side effects of taking Viagra.

Still ahead here tonight, shake-up at the Central Intelligence Agency, two top officials resigned. Six total have now resigned. New turmoil at the agency. I'll be joined by former CIA director, James Woolsey. He'll tell us what all of this means for our nation's intelligence community.

And the future of the Supreme Court. According to one judge deemed by some to have been too conserve to join it. Former Supreme Court nominee, Robert Bork, joins me. All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The top two officials in the CIA's clandestine service today resigning, sources say they clashed with deputies of new CIA Director Porter Goss. My guest tonight served as CIA director from '93 to '95. James Woolsey, joins us from Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Good to be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Porter Goss, is he doing the right thing or is he doing the wrong thing here?

WOOLSEY: Well, I think substantively, on the right track. He wants, I think, a more risk-taking clandestine service. He wants one that relies less on so-called liaison information, which is information you get from other intelligence services just by talking to them, like, say Jordanians telling you what's going on in the Middle East. And he wants to have more of our own case officers and spies. And I think that's all to the good. That also suggests to me that he probably wants to move toward non-official cover officers, which is very, very risky, indeed, but also has the potential for big payoffs. That is, you wouldn't have people undercover as U.S. government employees with a diplomatic passport, they would seem to be, perhaps, not even Americans, but someone out in the country as a whole.

If these resignations, though, were just over personal clashes, that's a shame. And I don't know, you know, who raised his voice first or what. That's just kind of a Washington thing. I'm not sure. But the substantive things that I think Goss wants to do, I think, are headed in the right direction.

DOBBS: The so-called knocks, as you were describing, Senator McCain making a very similar point, that there are more Americans sitting inside U.S. embassies waiting for people to come to them with information than there are Americans outside those embassies seeking it out.

Do you think we're going to be able to improve upon the so-called five-year horizon to have an effective covert service?

WOOLSEY: Well, it will take a long time to rebuild some of the things that we lost right after the Cold War. The budgets were very scarce. We were shutting down stations overseas. I couldn't even get money out of the Senator DeConcini for Arabic language instruction and Farsi language instruction. So, we paid a price back there for some of the cuts that mainly the Congress made during those years. I think that estimates like George Tenet's of saying five years to get in shape and so forth are probably premised on this notion of more language training and probably especially moving toward non-official cover officers.

DOBBS: And Jim, when I raised that question, it's not as a criticism of George Tenet when he was head of the CIA, but rather questioning whether or not Congress, the United States government should not be are more -- certainly eager to provide the resources and the funding to put on a relatively heroic effort here to solve those issues?

WOOLSEY: I think this is a very important matter. And I think Porter Goss will be a good director, and I hope that the people he's taken up there with him will work, you know, everybody will play well together. And because there are a number of extraordinarily able people in the clandestine service who are willing to go at things in a new and different direction, they're intensely patriotic. They're brave. And they're a great national asset. DOBBS: Indeed, they are. And I couldn't agree with you more. At the same time, what would you have done if you had been head of the CIA and you had seen the kind of politicalization of the CIA we witnessed in the run-up to the presidential campaign, which leaks were coming out of the CIA, aims absolutely squarely at the Bush administration in the most partisan of manners?

WOOLSEY: There were some. And there were some, I think, some less than fair slams at the agency from some in the political process, too. It went both ways. But the leaks, particularly of classified information from out there just couldn't and shouldn't be tolerated. One should chase those down regardless of what cause they served. And it's not like the agency historically to be the source of leaks. It's happened, but normally that comes from policy figures in the executive branch infused with one another who leak intelligence in order to support their side in a policy debate.

DOBBS: Jim Woolsey, always good to have you here.

WOOLSEY: Good to be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the future of the Supreme Court. I'll be joined by the highly respected constitutional and antitrust attorney, former Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork. It was his nomination that started all of this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Chief Justice William Rehnquist's treatment for thyroid cancer has raised the possibility that he will retire from the Supreme Court. President Bush likely will have the opportunity to appoint one or more justices during his second term. Joining me now to talk about that nomination process and the approval process, the future of the court itself, former Supreme Court nominee, Judge Robert Bork joining us tonight from Washington, D.C. Judge Bork, good to have you with us.

JUDGE ROBERT BORK, FMR. SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: Glad to be here, Lou.

DOBBS: We are, obviously, it appears at least, to be on the brink of some significant changes in the court. It is also just as clear that partisanship has not been diminished in any way in the nomination process. Your nomination, obviously, was the incipient point for all of this. Do you think there's anything that can be done to take away some of the rancor, some of the -- just almost rabid partisanship associated with the process?

BORK: No, I'm not so sure they can. For one thing, you know, the liberal wing of the Democratic party has lost now both Houses of Congress and the presidency. The only thing they have left is the liberal Supreme Court. And I think they're going to fight very hard to keep that.

DOBBS: A liberal Supreme court. You (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it as such. There are those who would suggest that President Bush is trying to create a right-wing Supreme Court. How do you react to that?

BORK: I regard that as political rhetoric. What President Bush is trying to do is get a Supreme Court that judges according to the principles of the constitution, that were originally there, and not make up new things. We now have a court that makes up new principles, makes up unheard of rights, and all in a liberal direction. And I think he just wants to bring it back to being good judges.

DOBBS: Good judges, strict construction of the U.S. constitution. Where does one find such judges I guess would be the first question.

BORK: Well, in the first place, I'd prefer to call it reasonable construction rather than strict construction. Well, you can find them on various courts of appeals around the country. You can find them off courts of appeals. You could find, for example, Ted Olson, the former solicitor general. You can find Ray Randolph, who is a judge on the D.C. Circuit. You could find Frank Easterbook, who is a great judge on the 7th Circuit. There are plenty of nominees out there.

DOBBS: And Arlen Specter, slated -- the senator from Pennsylvania -- slated to be the chairman of the judiciary committee. Everyone seems to be somewhat tentative in their support where it is support, less tentative in their criticism of Senator Specter. Have you given all that has transpired between the two of you and going back to your nomination, do you think he's the right man to be the judiciary? Have you two made amends?

BORK: No, I haven't even dealt with Specter since then. But no, I don't think he is the right man for a variety of reasons. You know, on the judgeship thing he'll be, on the first nomination of the Supreme Court, he'll be fine. He'll go along with Bush. But if the court reaches a tipping point, where it's about to become less liberal, according to the policies he likes, then at that point he will obstruct. But it's not just judges. A lot of important legislation goes through that committee. The Patriot Act will be up. The question of tort reform will be up. And, of course, he's always opposed tort reform. The question of our relationship to the International Criminal Court will be up. I understand he was one of only two Republican senators who voted to subject American servicemen to the International Criminal Court.

DOBBS: And with that, you, obviously think he should not be the chairman of the judiciary committee. Do you believe that Roe v. Wade, which has been a clarion call from the liberal wing of the Democratic party, as you put it, is that overstated, or is there an absolute reason, an influence to overturn Roe v. Wade?

BORK: Well, there is a move or the desire to overturn Roe against Wade, but right now you'd need about three or three new appointments to do it.

DOBBS: So you don't see it as certainly...

BORK: It's not imminent at all. People misunderstand Roe against Wade. They think that if you overrule it, abortion becomes illegal. It does not become illegal. It merely goes back to the state legislatures and the people of the states to decide on their own grounds.

DOBBS: And Judge Bork, we're out of time. As always, it's good to have you here and to talk with you. I hope you'll come back soon.

BORK: Thank you. Good to be with you.

DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on the Supreme Court. "Our chief justices have probably had more profound and lasting influence on their times and on the direction of the nation than most presidents."

A journalism icon today announced that he is hanging up his hatchet, as he put it. Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist William Safire today said he will write his final column for the "New York Times" on January 24 of next year. The 74-year-old Safire has written columns for the "Times" for just 31 years. Safire will continue to write his "On Language" column for the paper's Sunday magazine. "The Times" has said it has not yet chosen Safire's replacement. Indeed, that would be the toughest job in journalism.

Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: And the results of tonight's poll. 95 percent of you say the federal government needs to better enforce the laws against the hiring of illegal aliens.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. We continue our series of special reports on broken borders.

Tomorrow, how more states are moving to duplicate Arizona's Proposition 200, a proposition that denies welfare benefits to illegal aliens.

And among my guests tomorrow, Andrew Natsios, he's the head of the U.S. Agency for International Development and he's leading the reconstruction effort in Iraq.

I'll also be joined by Congressman John Hostettler of Indiana. Congressman Hostettler says a guest worker program for illegal aliens as being proposed by the president would do nothing but displace American workers. That's all coming up here tomorrow. We hope you will join us. Thanks for being with us tonight. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 15, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight in Washington, deputies and senior officials in the CIA's clandestine service resign. Is the new head of the CIA cleaning up or messing up?

Tonight, I'll talk with Senator John McCain and former CIA director James Woolsey.

REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MI), CHAIRMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: If these individuals didn't feel comfortable with the direction that Porter is going, they did the right thing, and they left the agency.

DOBBS: Secretary of State Colin Powell today resigned. Was he pushed out of the cabinet?

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It has always been my intention that I would serve one term.

DOBBS: President Bush is likely to make several Supreme Court nominations in his second term. Tonight I'll talk with the country's best-known victim of partisan obstructionism: former Supreme Court nominee, Robert Bork.

And in the face of an unprecedented immigration crisis, tonight we focus on the efforts to crack down on Americans who are breaking the law, hiring illegal aliens. Our special report.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, November 15. Here now, for an hour of news, debate, and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Tonight, upheaval in the top ranks of the Central Intelligence Agency and a new round of resignations from the president's cabinet.

Secretary of State Colin Powell is one of four cabinet members who announced their resignations today. The others are the secretaries of agriculture, education and energy.

And at the CIA today, the two senior-most members of the directorate of operations resigned. National security correspondent, David Ensor, reports on the CIA shake-up. White House correspondent Dana Bash reports on the cabinet resignations.

We go to David Ensor first -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, depending on how you look at it, it's either turmoil at the top of the CIA or long overdue change at the top.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): After angry exchanges with aides to the new director of central intelligence, Porter Goss, the top two men in the CIA's clandestine service resigned. They are Deputy Director for Operations, Stephen Kappes, and his No. 2, Michael J. Sulick.

Kappes is said to be the man who convinced Libya's leader, Moammar Gadhafi, to give up his weapons of mass destruction.

HOEKSTRA: If they didn't feel comfortable with the direction Porter is going, they did the right thing and left the agency.

ENSOR: Intelligence insiders say the Bush White House has ordered Goss to purge the agency of officials who may have been behind leaks of damaging information during the presidential campaign about Iraq policy and the war on terrorism.

But Kappes and Sulick are not accused of leaking and are highly respected.

REP. JANE HARMAN (D-CA), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: The direction set by this highly partisan, inexperienced management team which Porter Goss brought over with him to the CIA may cause the wrong people to resign in protest and may hurt our efforts to win the war on terror.

ENSOR: The resignations come after CIA Deputy Director John McLaughlin, Friday, announced his departure soon, though he's said it is not over disagreement with Goss.

JOHN MCLAUGHLIN, CIA DEPUTY DIRECTOR: My attitude towards the intelligence community and, I guess my alma mater, the CIA, is one of tough love.

ENSOR: All agree former Congressman Goss, himself a CIA veteran, has a mandate to make changes at the agency in the wake of criticism over intelligence shortcomings before the 9/11 attacks and before the Iraq war.

But some officials say Goss' closest aides want to micromanage decisions, such as who should be CIA station chiefs around the world.

MICHAEL SCHEUER, FORMER CIA ANALYST: I think just from my own career experience, it's a bad thing. The deputy director of operations, really, is in charge and ought to have the people working for him who are -- who have his confidence.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: It will be up to Goss how the CIA functions now, but past directors learned the hard way that the clandestine service finds ways of resisting change that it does not believe in -- Lou.

DOBBS: It looks like this covert service, David, is learning that management has a way of insisting on direction. Wouldn't you say that's also the case?

ENSOR: That is certainly true. This is a director who, as I said, has a mandate for change. Clearly, there were problems in the intelligence agency over the last few years. He's got a mandate to change things. And he clearly wants to.

DOBBS: Is there a sense, among your sources, David, that there is any discomfort within the CIA itself about the fact there has been so much politicization of the process, the leaks and so forth that took place in the -- at the height of their presidential campaign?

ENSOR: Well, there is a lot of discomfort about that. People who work at the CIA generally don't like to see their names and agency in the newspaper any more than necessary. They certainly were uncomfortable with what happened during the campaign.

At the same time, there's a lot of unease about where things are headed and whether there's going to be clear leadership from the administration.

DOBBS: David Ensor, we thank you very much. Our national security correspondent.

Later here, I'll talk with Senator John McCain, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra and former CIA director, James Woolsey, three of the most knowledgeable people in Washington, about the CIA. They join me to talk about the shake-up and what it means for the direction of the war on terror.

The Bush cabinet shake-up today continued. Secretary of State Colin Powell, the most prominent of four cabinet members to announce resignations. Senior administration officials say national security adviser Condoleezza Rice is Powell's most likely successor.

White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): the first member of the president's national security team to bow out says it was an honor to serve, but it's time to go.

POWELL: It has always been my intention that I would serve one term.

BASH: The secretary of state, who officially resigned Friday, was among the first tapped four years ago. For a president coming into office with no foreign policy experience, the retired four-star general offered credibility on the world stage, and he put it on the line.

POWELL: Saddam Hussein has not verifiably accounted for even one teaspoonful of this deadly material.

BASH: Most notably to sell the Iraq war to the U.N. with information later discredited.

Some administration officials say Powell wanted to stay a few months, especially with a new post-Arafat opening in the Mideast. But just last week, the president was notably vague when asked about his future.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm proud of my secretary of state. He's done a heck of a good job.

BASH: Powell carefully told reporters he never asked to stay, and sources say Mr. Bush was eager to assemble his new team.

Bush officials say Powell's successor will almost certainly be Condoleezza rice, the president's national security adviser, and one of his most trusted aides.

The secretary of state was one of four cabinet resignations announced Monday. The others: Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, Education Secretary Rod Paige, and Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman.

Filling key posts with loyal confidantes appears to be a Bush strategy aimed at fending off problems that historically plague second-term presidents.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And Lou, as we just -- you just heard, we understood earlier that Condoleezza Rice was almost certain to be picked for the secretary of state post that Colin Powell is leaving.

We're now told by White House officials that it is going to be announced, perhaps as early as tomorrow, that Condoleezza Rice will be tapped to be the new secretary of state, the second female secretary of state, if she is, of course, confirmed by the Senate -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much, Dana. Dana Bash.

Turning now to Iraq, a top Iraqi government minister today declared victory in the battle for Falluja. More than 1,200 insurgents have been reported killed. One thousand insurgents were captured.

In Fallujah itself, U.S. and Iraqi troops continue to hunt down remaining anti-Iraqi forces.

Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, reports -- Jamie. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Commanders on the ground said that Fallujah is now 100 percent under U.S. and Iraqi control. But he made a distinction, saying that doesn't mean that the city has been cleared.

In fact, the U.S. is still finding pockets of resistance among some of the insurgents who are still holed up in the city. They're doing what they call now back clearing. That is, having pushed all the way from the north to the south, using forces along the southern border as a blocking action. They moved all the way through, and now they're moving back, looking for remnants of the insurgents.

As you said, commanders are not making an exact count of the enemy dead, but they do say it's over 1,000. Meanwhile, about 37, 38 U.S. troops have been killed in action, more than 320 wounded. Iraqi forces, six killed and 28 wounded. Some of those are returning to action.

But the real challenge here for the U.S. is to get aid on the ground, begin reconstruction, and show the residents of Fallujah that the insurgents are not coming back.

The U.S. commander who briefed reporters at the Pentagon today, Colonel Michael Regner, said that this was not a case, as in Vietnam, where they had to destroy the city to save it. In fact, he said they used very precise targeting techniques and tried to save as many of the structures as possible.

But he did say that it's going to be some time before the city is back up and running and totally under Iraqi control -- Lou.

DOBBS: And Jamie, any indication as to the next targets for the U.S. and Iraqi military?

MCINTYRE: Well, the U.S. is still having problems in Ramadi, which is the provincial capital of this area...

DOBBS: Right.

MCINTYRE: ... where the U.S. has forces on the ground, but does not, again, control the whole city. And also in Mosul where there's been a resurgence of the insurgents to the north.

So those are likely next targets. In fact, they're places where military action is under way now.

DOBBS: To put it straightforwardly, this is obviously a tremendous initiative taken on the part of the U.S. and the Iraqi army. Now, is it an initiative -- initiative and a momentum that they intend to maintain and to extend?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's critical that they maintain the momentum here, because if -- if Falluja's allowed to back slide, at all, if insurgents are allowed to come back in and set up operations there, then that will take away -- the military victory will turn into a political setback. So they're aware of the stakes in Falluja, and there's a lot of planning going into trying to make sure that doesn't happen.

DOBBS: And, Jamie, with four Cabinet resignations today, no mention of the plans for or by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. What are you hearing?

MCINTYRE: Well, Rumsfeld's aides believe that he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Now Rumsfeld himself says he has not discussed his future -- even discussed it -- with the president at all.

The indication is that President Bush is happy to have him serve, and Rumsfeld, at 72, is showing no less enthusiasm for the job.

So the thinking here is that he'll probably stay at least another year or so to try to continue his transformation of the Pentagon and oversee the operations in Iraq.

DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

Thank you, Jamie.

A shocking development tonight in the multibillion-dollar United Nations oil-for-food scandal. Senate investigators say Saddam Hussein stole more than twice as much money as had been first thought. This raises new questions about the role of the United Nations in this scandal and the U.N.'s refusal to cooperate with U.S. congressional investigators.

Richard Roth reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Prime witness Charles Duelfer was just glad to be alive, his first public appearance since escaping an assassination attempt in Baghdad which killed two American servicemen.

CHARLES DUELFER, DIRECTOR, IRAQ SURVEY GROUP: Without their actions, I -- I doubt whether I would be here today.

ROTH: Topping earlier findings by Duelfer, this Senate subcommittee sharply raised the amount of suspected profits for Saddam Hussein to over $21 billion, some through oil-for-food corruption and a large chunk by oil smuggling through Syria and Jordan.

SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: The question must be raised as to what happened to Saddam's billions and are they being used today to fuel an insurgency that has taken the lives of over a thousand American and coalition servicemen and women and thousands of our Iraqi allies.

ROTH: Senators are still furious with the United Nations for not cooperating with congressional investigators. The U.N. prefers its own probe, citing U.N. limits on sharing internal data to member countries. SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: That is no excuse for the United Nations not to have cooperated with this subcommittee's investigation, and I wanted to join with Senators Coleman and Levin in urging the United Nations to cooperate fully and promptly.

ROTH: U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan spoke to two senators over the weekend to say the U.N. is not obstructing, but Senator Coleman says more action is needed by the U.N.

Annan delayed a trip to Africa to apparently focus on U.S.-U.N. relations which have sunk once again because of disagreements over Iraq and the split on the oil-for-food investigation.

Duelfer again described Iraqi ministry lists showing Russian and French politicians receiving oil vouchers which, when sold, could net millions.

The former director of the U.N.'s oil-for-food program, Benin Savan, was on the list, but no proof he profited has yet been documented.

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Do you know that Benin Savan received a voucher? That's my question.

DUELFER: The Iraqis firmly believe that.

LEVIN: Do you know that he did? This is your...

DUELFER: I would conclude with high confidence from the data that the Iraqis provided, from all that we saw, that that happened.

ROTH: The senators wondered how the corruption could take place under the eyes of the U.N. and its member countries. They may have known all along, but, in the interest of unity on sanctions and Iraq, decided to look the other way.

The U.N. is now bracing for threats from Congress to reduce financial contributions to the U.N. organization. U.N. officials say they are waiting for Paul Volcker, the head of the U.N. independent panel, to decide if he wants to share more information with the congressional probers -- Lou.

DOBBS: And how soon is it expected that Paul Volcker will have any kind of report?

ROTH: His first report is scheduled for January. The main report, the middle of next year. Many in Congress say that's too long to wait on such a sensitive, important matter.

DOBBS: And why is the United Nations, Richard, taking the position that it cannot share this information when, for months, its position has been that it could not investigate the oil-for-food scandal because that was up to member countries? Isn't this in stark contradiction to deny the U.S. Senate?

ROTH: Well, the U.N. is sticking with the story that they cannot share information with all 191 parliaments, even though, in the past, the U.N. has cooperated with congressional investigators on some other issues. The U.N. is caught between the Bush administration and the Congress, which is much more involved in this story and wants action.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And just as a point of reference here, if I may, Richard, there aren't 191 parliaments. If that were the case and we were talking about 191 democracies, perhaps things might go more smoothly at the United Nations.

Richard Roth, as always, thank you.

Still ahead here, a major shift in the balance of power on Capitol Hill. Seven newly elected Republican senators laying out their agenda for the new Congress. We'll have that report for you.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans defying the law every day, hiring illegal aliens. Tonight, we'll have a special report for you on the federal government's failure to enforce the law and to stop the invasion of illegal aliens.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: A disturbing report tonight on possible al Qaeda plans to smuggle nuclear materials into this country through Mexico. According to the latest issue of "TIME" magazine, al Qaeda may have plans to target the United States with weapons of mass destruction.

U.S. security officials tell "TIME" magazine that al Qaeda plans to smuggle nuclear materials from Europe into Mexico and from there across the border into the United States. The information reportedly coming from a key al Qaeda operative who was captured in Pakistan.

In this country, a crime is committed every day by countless American families and businesses. They are rarely prosecuted. The crime: the employment of illegal aliens, but the law that prevents that is poorly written and almost never enforced.

Peter Viles reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Atlanta, 18 indicted for hiring hundreds of illegal aliens to run gas stations and convenience stores. Texas, an employment firm indicted for hiring illegals at the factory that makes meals for the military. Kansas, 44 illegals arrested at a factory that makes cooling towers for nuclear power plants.

Yes, the government does crack down on the hiring of illegal aliens, but not often enough to make most employers think twice before hiring illegals.

PHILIP MARTIN, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA DAVIS: It's true that there are occasional enforcement efforts, but it's often much like on a highway when many people are speeding. Yes, one person may get pulled over, but that doesn't necessarily slow everyone else down. VILES: Most cases do not lead to prosecution of employers because the law on hiring illegals is famously weak. The government lost its last big trial on this against Tyson foods.

WAYNE CORNELIUS, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA SAN DIEGO: Congress deliberately passed a toothless employer sanctions law that contained a gaping loophole that enables employers to get off scot-free if they have just kept their paperwork in order. They don't have to verify the authenticity of documents provided by job applicants.

VILES: The number of illegal worker cases referred for prosecution has dropped sharply from 182 in 1999 to 21 in 2002. Immigration officials say prosecutions are now on the rise, but they also say their top priority has to be Homeland Security, which often means cooperating with employers at airports and nuclear power plants.

DEAN BOYD, IMMIGRATIONS AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: The work sites that we're looking at are a little different from the ones we were targeting before 9/11. Work sites that have a nexus to national security -- those have to be our priority, but, at the same time, we're not ignoring the traditional work site enforcement cases.

VILES (on camera): There is little evidence that Congress really wants to crack down on this anyway. The administration this year asked for $23 million in additional funding for workplace enforcement. Congress provided only $5 million.

Peter Viles, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And that brings us to tonight's poll. The question: Do you believe the federal government needs to better enforce the laws against the hiring of illegal aliens? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com or cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later.

Still ahead here tonight, how congressional Republicans are promising to use their growing majority in both the House and Senate. Our special report.

And then high-level resignations from the CIA. Senator John McCain will be here to tell us why he says a shake-up is needed -- desperately needed.

And House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra says much more should be done. Both Senator McCain and Congressman Hoekstra are my guests tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Congress today returning for a lame-duck session following the stunning Republican gains in the general election. Congressional Republicans proudly introducing their new colleagues and talking about their agenda for the new Congress.

Joe Johns reports from Capitol Hill. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Seven Republican senators are left, six of them current or former House members and one, a former Cabinet secretary, all determined to put a conservative stamp on the Congress, representing a significant shift in the political center of gravity.

SEN. ELECT TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: You know, our biggest problem in this country is people campaign on promises and then don't try to carry them out, let alone carry them out.

JOHNS: Of course, they won't even be sworn in until January, but their mere presence on Capitol Hill says something about the direction of the next Congress. All pledged bipartisanship, but said Democrats will have to recognize the new political reality.

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: Messages have been sent, lessons have been learned.

JOHNS: At the top of the freshman agenda, health-care and Social Security reform, getting floor votes for conservative judges, cutting taxes and reining in government spending. However, this group will have to sit on the sidelines while the 108th Congress in its last breath wrestles with a mammoth spending bill and a bill to reform the nation's intelligence community.

After weeks of stalled talks, House Republicans Monday reporting progress on the intelligence bill, including the sticky issue of giving a new national intelligence director the power to handle the purse strings.

REP. PETE HOEKSTRA (R), MICHIGAN: I think on budget authority, budget control, we may have an agreement on language.

JOHNS: Democrats are warning that failure to finish the entire bill now means the Congress will have to start all over again next year.

REP. JANE PELOSI (D), CALIFORNIA: The requirement is within the next 24 hours to come to agreement on a consensus product. If we don't get it now and it dies this week, it won't be back in the next Congress.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: The Congress also has to tackle the issue of raising the government's debt ceiling again. Democrats want an up or down vote on that. Republicans don't. Either way, the Treasury Department says something has to be done about it -- Lou.

DOBBS: And something always is.

Joe Johns -- thank you very much -- reporting tonight from Capitol Hill. Coming up next here, that shake-up at the highest levels of the CIA. Senate Intelligence Committee member John McCain, House Intelligence Committee Chairman Peter Hoekstra, former CIA Director James Woolsey join me to talk about the future of the CIA.

And the future of the Supreme Court. President Bush likely to name several nominees over the next several years. I'll be joined by former Supreme Court nominee, the man whose nomination started the partisan rancor over judicial nominations, Judge Robert Bork.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In a moment, I'll be talking with Senator John McCain who says the CIA is dysfunctional, but, first, let's look at some of the top stories tonight.

The Justice Department says the number of death sentences across the country dropped to the lowest level in 30 years last year. The department says it is the third straight year that the country's death-row population has declined. The number of executions also fell to 65 from 71.

Researchers at Johns Hopkins University are closer to identifying the cause of autism. A report released today shows a strong link between brain inflammation and autism. Researchers now say they may be able to create a test for autism and possibly a treatment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Help us amend for Arnold and 12 million other Americans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: A movement has begun in California to allow foreign-born citizens, such as Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, to become president. Ads carrying that message started running today in California. The ads marked the first public demonstration of support for a constitutional amendment on the issue. This, of course, would benefit mightily Governor Schwarzenegger.

A high-level shake-up is under way tonight inside the CIA. As we reported, the two most senior members of the CIA's clandestine service today resigned. Senator John McCain is a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, and I asked him earlier if these changes are necessary to reform the agency, or if they're a sign of something else.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Well, I'm sorry that it's happening the way that it's happening. But, Lou, I've seen the House Intelligence Committee report about the CIA. I've seen the 9/11 Commission comments about the CIA, the Senate Intelligence Committee report. I serve on the Commission on Weapons of Mass Destruction, and there is no doubt that the CIA is dysfunctional and there needs to be significant and fundamental changes made.

That's upsetting some traditions, some old boy networks over there. And there are good people over there. But they have to change, and Porter Goss, I think, is the person to do it.

DOBBS: Porter Goss, his deputy, Patrick Murray, apparently some considerable reaction, as you know, Senator, to the way in which a number of the top level of deputies have been treated. Yet at the same time, apparently a number of the leaks that were basically, fundamentally anti-administration leaks in the months preceding the election, emanated from one or two or more of these very same people. What are you thoughts about that?

MCCAIN: My thoughts are that it gives one the reputation of not just a dysfunctional agency, but a rogue agency if the people who are supposed to be providing intelligence information to the president of the United States are leaking information that would affect the outcome of a presidential campaign. So I think that's very serious.

I also think that Porter Goss has made some mistakes. We all make mistakes. But all these leaks are coming from opponents of Porter Goss and his friends, not from them. Look, this is an old Washington game that's going on, but we cannot have a situation where the director of the CIA, when asked about Iraq, weapons of mass destruction, tells the president of the United States that it's a quote, "slam dunk," when nothing could have been further from the truth.

We need to fix this. And we're talking about vital, vital aspects of decision-making as far as national security is concerned. The stakes are very high. This isn't the U.S. Patent Office, Lou.

DOBBS: And as you point out, indeed, it is not. And that makes it all the more troubling when the former CIA director, George Tenet, says it will take five years to create an effective covert operation. Porter Goss, during his confirmation hearings, saying it may take longer. Is that, in point of fact, Senator McCain, acceptable when we're in the midst of a war against radical Islamist terrorism?

MCCAIN: Well, I can't go against their expertise, but I do know this. We know little more than we knew 10 years ago about Iran and North Korea today. We have more people sitting inside embassies waiting for people to come in and give them information than we have outside agencies -- embassies, trying to find out and collect vital information as far as intelligence is concerned.

There is a failed system, and we've got to go about it as quickly as we can as far as fixing is concerned, and do whatever is necessary. And if that means replacing some people, and if that means breaking some china, I'm sorry to say, but it's got to be done. DOBBS: And as you say, Porter Goss has made some mistakes here in the first seven weeks of his tenure. Is it your judgment that Porter Goss nonetheless has the full confidence and support of the president?

MCCAIN: I believe that all of us, when we go into a new job, may make mistakes. Overall, I'm very glad that he's there. I think that he enjoys -- I know that he enjoys the confidence of the president and the vice president of the United States. And this is a very, very tough business that he's in.

Look, we're trying to change a culture that has been in place for many, many years. And according to the 9/11 Commission, without any significant congressional oversight, and I think they are right.

DOBBS: There is seemingly every appearance and suggestion that Congress is asserting that oversight, that heightened oversight. In fact, is it?

MCCAIN: I'm afraid not. We tried to improve that oversight and failed miserably. In the words of former Senator Bob Kerrey, who served on the Intelligence Committee as well as the 9/11 Commission, the old bulls were more interested in protecting their turf around here than they were in national security.

There is still no improvement in congressional oversight.

DOBBS: And the possibility of seeing real progress on the 9/11 Commission recommendations?

MCCAIN: It's hard for me to believe that they're not going to come to some kind of agreement. This is too important. It's obviously a fight over budgetary authority, which is what it usually gets down to around this town, but they really need to resolve it. And then I hope the American people will demand congressional oversight, which we failed in our attempt to do and got very little coverage or publicity, I was disappointed to see.

DOBBS: Senator McCain, another shake-up obviously in the cabinet. Today, the top-ranking cabinet member, Secretary of State Colin Powell. Your thoughts?

MCCAIN: I revere and respect and love Colin Powell. I think he's one of the finest men that this nation has ever produced. I think he will continue to serve this nation in other capacities. It was well-known that he was probably going to leave. It's a tough job, and I'm sure he was tired.

DOBBS: Senator John McCain, we're glad you're not tired. Thanks for being here. Good talking with you.

MCCAIN: Thanks, Lou.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The CIA shake-up comes as members of the House and Senate meet for a final attempt to negotiate a massive reorganization of our intelligence agencies. Congressman Pete Hoekstra of Michigan is chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. He is one of four lawmakers leading those negotiations.

Congressman, thanks for being with us.

Let me ask you, Mr. Chairman, are those negotiations succeeding?

REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R-MI), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, we continue to make progress. We negotiated all of last week, continuing through the weekend. Discussions were ongoing today. And yeah, they are making progress. We don't have an agreement at this point, but I think we're hopeful that we're going to be able to iron out the differences yet between the House and the Senate and get a bill to our colleagues this week. But it's going to take quite a bit of work.

DOBBS: And I infer from what you're saying, Congressman, that there's some difficult negotiations ahead. Is it your judgment you'll have one of in this session, this lame-duck session?

HOEKSTRA: Well, I think that's what Senator Collins and Lieberman and my colleague here in the House, Jane Harman, that is what we are working for. We're trying to get this done in the next 24 to 36 hours.

DOBBS: And the result being just to take one element, a national intelligence director, who will have full budget authority, despite the objections of the Pentagon?

HOEKSTRA: That's exactly where we're moving towards. We want a national intelligence director with full budget authority. I think we're working towards an agreement that is going to be acceptable to the Pentagon. The president all along has said that he wants a national intelligence director with full budget authority. It's important we get a single person with a focus and direction for the intelligence community.

DOBBS: Well, there is a new direction being taken, obviously at the CIA by the man who held your post before you. Porter Goss, the CIA director, breaking china, in the words of Senator McCain. Is it well-placed china that he's breaking?

HOEKSTRA: Well, I think Senator McCain indicated, every analysis of the CIA over the last number of years have indicated that there does need to be reform, there need to be changes made. I've got every degree of confidence that Porter Goss is going through this transition from where we were to where we need to be. And it may be painful, but for those individuals who are uncomfortable with the direction that Porter wants to set, and they feel that they can't go there, I think that they're doing the honorable thing by stepping aside, rather than what happens so often in Washington, is the bureaucrats stay entrenched and then what they do is they use internal means to thwart the reforms and the changes that the new administration may be putting in place. These folks are do the right thing by stepping aside.

DOBBS: You think there will be more stepping aside at the CIA?

HOEKSTRA: That's always a possibility. I mean, again, the folks have to take a look at where Porter and the administration want to go, how they fit into those plans. Hopefully they can see the progress and the change that needs to take place, that they can keep their expertise at the CIA, and we can build on it and move forward.

DOBBS: Congressman Peter Hoekstra, we thank you for being with us, chairman of the House Intelligence Community.

HOEKSTRA: Thank you.

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question: Do you believe the federal government needs to better enforce laws against hiring illegal aliens? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com.

We'll have the results for you a little later in the show.

On a lighter note tonight, sheriff's deputies in Louisiana have solved an unusual crime involving some rather unconventional thieves. Beavers. Beavers found a bag of stolen cash from a video poker casino near Baton Rouge. The beavers used the cash to, what else, to build the world's most expensive beaver dam. Deputies found thousands of dollars in soggy bills weaved into the sticks and brush of a dam. The sheriff said the casino owners were elated to get the cash back, even if it was a little wet.

And Pfizer tonight has begun pulling two new ads for Viagra. That after the Food and Drug Administration said the "wild thing" ads, as they are called, promised more than the drug Viagra has been proved to deliver. The FDA also said the ads failed to mention, unfortunately, some major negative side effects of taking Viagra.

Still ahead here tonight, shake-up at the Central Intelligence Agency, two top officials resigned. Six total have now resigned. New turmoil at the agency. I'll be joined by former CIA director, James Woolsey. He'll tell us what all of this means for our nation's intelligence community.

And the future of the Supreme Court. According to one judge deemed by some to have been too conserve to join it. Former Supreme Court nominee, Robert Bork, joins me. All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The top two officials in the CIA's clandestine service today resigning, sources say they clashed with deputies of new CIA Director Porter Goss. My guest tonight served as CIA director from '93 to '95. James Woolsey, joins us from Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Good to be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Porter Goss, is he doing the right thing or is he doing the wrong thing here?

WOOLSEY: Well, I think substantively, on the right track. He wants, I think, a more risk-taking clandestine service. He wants one that relies less on so-called liaison information, which is information you get from other intelligence services just by talking to them, like, say Jordanians telling you what's going on in the Middle East. And he wants to have more of our own case officers and spies. And I think that's all to the good. That also suggests to me that he probably wants to move toward non-official cover officers, which is very, very risky, indeed, but also has the potential for big payoffs. That is, you wouldn't have people undercover as U.S. government employees with a diplomatic passport, they would seem to be, perhaps, not even Americans, but someone out in the country as a whole.

If these resignations, though, were just over personal clashes, that's a shame. And I don't know, you know, who raised his voice first or what. That's just kind of a Washington thing. I'm not sure. But the substantive things that I think Goss wants to do, I think, are headed in the right direction.

DOBBS: The so-called knocks, as you were describing, Senator McCain making a very similar point, that there are more Americans sitting inside U.S. embassies waiting for people to come to them with information than there are Americans outside those embassies seeking it out.

Do you think we're going to be able to improve upon the so-called five-year horizon to have an effective covert service?

WOOLSEY: Well, it will take a long time to rebuild some of the things that we lost right after the Cold War. The budgets were very scarce. We were shutting down stations overseas. I couldn't even get money out of the Senator DeConcini for Arabic language instruction and Farsi language instruction. So, we paid a price back there for some of the cuts that mainly the Congress made during those years. I think that estimates like George Tenet's of saying five years to get in shape and so forth are probably premised on this notion of more language training and probably especially moving toward non-official cover officers.

DOBBS: And Jim, when I raised that question, it's not as a criticism of George Tenet when he was head of the CIA, but rather questioning whether or not Congress, the United States government should not be are more -- certainly eager to provide the resources and the funding to put on a relatively heroic effort here to solve those issues?

WOOLSEY: I think this is a very important matter. And I think Porter Goss will be a good director, and I hope that the people he's taken up there with him will work, you know, everybody will play well together. And because there are a number of extraordinarily able people in the clandestine service who are willing to go at things in a new and different direction, they're intensely patriotic. They're brave. And they're a great national asset. DOBBS: Indeed, they are. And I couldn't agree with you more. At the same time, what would you have done if you had been head of the CIA and you had seen the kind of politicalization of the CIA we witnessed in the run-up to the presidential campaign, which leaks were coming out of the CIA, aims absolutely squarely at the Bush administration in the most partisan of manners?

WOOLSEY: There were some. And there were some, I think, some less than fair slams at the agency from some in the political process, too. It went both ways. But the leaks, particularly of classified information from out there just couldn't and shouldn't be tolerated. One should chase those down regardless of what cause they served. And it's not like the agency historically to be the source of leaks. It's happened, but normally that comes from policy figures in the executive branch infused with one another who leak intelligence in order to support their side in a policy debate.

DOBBS: Jim Woolsey, always good to have you here.

WOOLSEY: Good to be with you, Lou.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the future of the Supreme Court. I'll be joined by the highly respected constitutional and antitrust attorney, former Supreme Court nominee Robert Bork. It was his nomination that started all of this. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Chief Justice William Rehnquist's treatment for thyroid cancer has raised the possibility that he will retire from the Supreme Court. President Bush likely will have the opportunity to appoint one or more justices during his second term. Joining me now to talk about that nomination process and the approval process, the future of the court itself, former Supreme Court nominee, Judge Robert Bork joining us tonight from Washington, D.C. Judge Bork, good to have you with us.

JUDGE ROBERT BORK, FMR. SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: Glad to be here, Lou.

DOBBS: We are, obviously, it appears at least, to be on the brink of some significant changes in the court. It is also just as clear that partisanship has not been diminished in any way in the nomination process. Your nomination, obviously, was the incipient point for all of this. Do you think there's anything that can be done to take away some of the rancor, some of the -- just almost rabid partisanship associated with the process?

BORK: No, I'm not so sure they can. For one thing, you know, the liberal wing of the Democratic party has lost now both Houses of Congress and the presidency. The only thing they have left is the liberal Supreme Court. And I think they're going to fight very hard to keep that.

DOBBS: A liberal Supreme court. You (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it as such. There are those who would suggest that President Bush is trying to create a right-wing Supreme Court. How do you react to that?

BORK: I regard that as political rhetoric. What President Bush is trying to do is get a Supreme Court that judges according to the principles of the constitution, that were originally there, and not make up new things. We now have a court that makes up new principles, makes up unheard of rights, and all in a liberal direction. And I think he just wants to bring it back to being good judges.

DOBBS: Good judges, strict construction of the U.S. constitution. Where does one find such judges I guess would be the first question.

BORK: Well, in the first place, I'd prefer to call it reasonable construction rather than strict construction. Well, you can find them on various courts of appeals around the country. You can find them off courts of appeals. You could find, for example, Ted Olson, the former solicitor general. You can find Ray Randolph, who is a judge on the D.C. Circuit. You could find Frank Easterbook, who is a great judge on the 7th Circuit. There are plenty of nominees out there.

DOBBS: And Arlen Specter, slated -- the senator from Pennsylvania -- slated to be the chairman of the judiciary committee. Everyone seems to be somewhat tentative in their support where it is support, less tentative in their criticism of Senator Specter. Have you given all that has transpired between the two of you and going back to your nomination, do you think he's the right man to be the judiciary? Have you two made amends?

BORK: No, I haven't even dealt with Specter since then. But no, I don't think he is the right man for a variety of reasons. You know, on the judgeship thing he'll be, on the first nomination of the Supreme Court, he'll be fine. He'll go along with Bush. But if the court reaches a tipping point, where it's about to become less liberal, according to the policies he likes, then at that point he will obstruct. But it's not just judges. A lot of important legislation goes through that committee. The Patriot Act will be up. The question of tort reform will be up. And, of course, he's always opposed tort reform. The question of our relationship to the International Criminal Court will be up. I understand he was one of only two Republican senators who voted to subject American servicemen to the International Criminal Court.

DOBBS: And with that, you, obviously think he should not be the chairman of the judiciary committee. Do you believe that Roe v. Wade, which has been a clarion call from the liberal wing of the Democratic party, as you put it, is that overstated, or is there an absolute reason, an influence to overturn Roe v. Wade?

BORK: Well, there is a move or the desire to overturn Roe against Wade, but right now you'd need about three or three new appointments to do it.

DOBBS: So you don't see it as certainly...

BORK: It's not imminent at all. People misunderstand Roe against Wade. They think that if you overrule it, abortion becomes illegal. It does not become illegal. It merely goes back to the state legislatures and the people of the states to decide on their own grounds.

DOBBS: And Judge Bork, we're out of time. As always, it's good to have you here and to talk with you. I hope you'll come back soon.

BORK: Thank you. Good to be with you.

DOBBS: Tonight's thought is on the Supreme Court. "Our chief justices have probably had more profound and lasting influence on their times and on the direction of the nation than most presidents."

A journalism icon today announced that he is hanging up his hatchet, as he put it. Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist William Safire today said he will write his final column for the "New York Times" on January 24 of next year. The 74-year-old Safire has written columns for the "Times" for just 31 years. Safire will continue to write his "On Language" column for the paper's Sunday magazine. "The Times" has said it has not yet chosen Safire's replacement. Indeed, that would be the toughest job in journalism.

Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: And the results of tonight's poll. 95 percent of you say the federal government needs to better enforce the laws against the hiring of illegal aliens.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. We continue our series of special reports on broken borders.

Tomorrow, how more states are moving to duplicate Arizona's Proposition 200, a proposition that denies welfare benefits to illegal aliens.

And among my guests tomorrow, Andrew Natsios, he's the head of the U.S. Agency for International Development and he's leading the reconstruction effort in Iraq.

I'll also be joined by Congressman John Hostettler of Indiana. Congressman Hostettler says a guest worker program for illegal aliens as being proposed by the president would do nothing but displace American workers. That's all coming up here tomorrow. We hope you will join us. Thanks for being with us tonight. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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