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American Morning

Colin Powell Resigns

Aired November 15, 2004 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Just about half past the hour now on this AMERICAN MORNING. Bill and Soledad are off this morning. In a few minutes, we're going to go back to the Scott Peterson trial, hear what lawyers must do now to keep Peterson off death row. We'll look at the defense's strategy and why they may be in for a tough battle.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Also we're going to talk to the man who discovered the Titanic nearly 20 years ago. I guess he didn't discover it. He found it. It was under the ocean. He says even at the bottom of the ocean, the fames ocean liner is no longer safe. We're going to look at what's happening to the Titanic and who is causing some of these problems.

First, though, let's get a check on who's now in news with Daryn Kagan. She's at the CNN Center in Atlanta.

HI, Daryn.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Rick, good morning.

Now in the news, U.S. warplanes, backed by troops, searching house to house, pounding insurgent targets in Falluja. Today's strikes come a day after a U.S. marine commander said U.S. and Iraqi forces had, quote, "liberated the city," but officials say it could take several more days of fighting before the city is secured.

Secretary of State Colin Powell is expected to visit with the new Palestinian leadership. Details of the visit have not been worked out yet.

Meanwhile, investigators are still looking into yesterday's shooting incident in Gaza. Masked gunmen burst in on interim Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas. At least two security guards were killed. Some 10 others were wounded. Abbas escaped unharmed.

The man who shot former President Ronald Reagan could soon find out if he'll be granted more freedom. John Hinckley Jr. has been in a psychiatric hospital since 1981. His lawyers have asked that he be allowed more time for visits at his parents' home. Closing arguments on that request are set for today.

And supporters of Arnold Schwarzenegger are pushing for a change to the U.S. Constitution. New TV ads begin airing in California this morning. They push for a U.S. constitutional amendment to let foreign-born citizens run for president. The ads are sponsored by amendus.org, an organization made up of Schwarzenegger donors and campaign supporters. Rick, back to you in New York?

SANCHEZ: And what do you got coming up at 10:00, Daryn?

KAGAN: Well, we're going to be following the latest news, of course, as well as something that will be of great interest to those in New York City, or who have visited New York City. A man has taken photographs from the 1930s. You see what New York looked like then, and you see what it looks like now. Fascinating contrast.

SANCHEZ: Sounds good. Thanks.

All right, we'll be talking to you. Heidi,over to you.

COLLINS: The jury that found Scott Peterson guilty of killing his wife has a week off before they begin to determine his punishment.

Rusty Dornin has more now from Redwood City, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury further find the degree of the murder to be that of the first degree.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's guilty. Now a jury must decide whether to give Scott Peterson life or death for the murders of his wife and unborn son.

This week, attorneys for both sides will put together their cases for the penalty phase of the trial. The defense will portray Peterson as a nice guy, with no criminal record, upstanding member of the community, someone a neighbor in trouble could call upon. But prosecutors will paint him as a liar and a cheat, a man with a murderous plan that he coldly carried out.

ROBERT TALBOT, LEGAL ANALYST: Scott's life doesn't have the kind of mitigation that's usually available. He doesn't have this deprived childhood. He doesn't have any kind of mental illness.

DORNIN: Following the verdict back in Laci and Scott Peterson's hometown, their small Modesto home, the scene of the crime according to prosecutors, became a shrine once again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think justice has been -- is intact.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's guilty. I'm so thankful that they've seen the wrong he done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's good, it's good, for the family. So, I'm happy about that, but it's a closure.

DORNIN: Rusty Dornin, CNN, Redwood City, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: A gag order remains in place for the families and everyone involved in the trial. The judge anticipates by the first week in December, the jury of six men and six women will begin deliberating Peterson's punishment -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: It's been almost 20 years since oceanographer Robert Ballard Discovered the Titanic. Now in a new book, "Return to Titanic: A New Look at the World's Most Famous Lost Ship," Ballard details his expedition in June to study the deterioration of the wreck, and a secret government investigation, as well. He starts by explaining that investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT BALLARD, EXPLORER/OCEANOGRAPHER: Our program was to not only expose the Titanic, but the technology was actually to explore the USS Scorpion and the USS Thrasher, which were two nuclear submarines we lost during the Cold War.

SANCHEZ: So our government, our U.S. Navy, which you were a part of, right, at that time...

BALLARD: Thirty-three years.

SANCHEZ: They were telling the public, look, we're doing this special expedition down in Atlantic where we're looking for the Titanic. They weren't looking for the Atlantic (sic). They were trying to get information on the Russians and the USSR, right?

BALLARD: Well, they were really concerned whether the Soviets were going to our downed submarines, because they had nuclear weapons on them, they had nuclear reactors, and we obviously during the Cold War were really concerned about what the Soviets might be doing, and it was also a way, as you'll see in the "National Geographic" special that's on December 16th, it -- the Navy really declassifies it. They were sending the Soviets a message.

SANCHEZ: You and I have to talk a lot about the possible deterioration of the Titanic. But before we get to that, I know you delve into this in your great book, which is worth buying, if nothing else, for the pictures alone, because it's so eerie. But was it the iceberg and the gash caused on the side of the ship that did bring it down?

BALLARD: Absolutely.

SANCHEZ: No question about that.

BALLARD: It sank. It hit an iceberg, and that's what did it.

SANCHEZ: Let me move to the lifeboats then. Why weren't there enough of them?

BALLARD: Well, you know, it was obeying the law, they didn't have to. Believe it or not, back then, you didn't have to carry enough lifeboats for all the people aboard.

SANCHEZ: What does that mean? Only some of these people are worth saving?

BALLARD: Well, the first class evidently.

SANCHEZ: Oh, my god.

BALLARD: But since then, lots of laws have been written as a result of the loss of the -- the creation of the International Ice Patrol, so they would actually be following icebergs. Radio operators would stay up, you know, 24 hours a day. So the Titanic led to a lot of new laws.

SANCHEZ: You've been going back in the last 20 years or so, and now you've just recently gone back to see what effect all this study and all this tourist stuff has had on the ship and you don't like what you've seen, right?

BALLARD: Well, as you can see, there's a lot of damage that's been done to the Titanic, some of it naturally, but a lot of it by submarines, like here, a submarine crashed into the first officer's cabin. So Titanic is really being loved to death, and what we're trying to do through this "National Geographic" TV special, and also the book and the magazine story is to draw attention to the Titanic and try to get other nations to sign the new treaty. There's a new treaty that the United States and England have signed. We're trying to get Russia and France to sign it, because it's their submarines that are doing most of the sub damage.

SANCHEZ: What kind of treaty?

BALLARD: That you can go...

SANCHEZ: Like a paparazzi rule?

BALLARD: Exactly. It's sort of like going to the Arizona in Pearl Harbor. Why should the Titanic not be treated like the Arizona and Pearl Harbor? You go there, but you don't take belt buckles off the ship.

SANCHEZ: Well, you've come up with something that I think is really cool. You've got a way for people to check out the Titanic any time they want, and to dive all the way down there; they don't have to leave their living rooms.

BALLARD: Exactly. When we did this special on National Geographic Channel, we came live from the deck of the Titanic. We're now installing undersea camera systems in NOAA's national marine sanctuaries. You can sit in my office in Connecticut and drive undersea robots in Monterey Bay's Kelp Forest (ph) right now. So we see the day will come when undersea robots will be the way that you visit it, and you'll visit it whenever you want to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Interestingly enough, people have taken over 6,000 artifacts from the Titanic's wreck since Ballard found the site. That was back in 1985 -- Heidi. COLLINS: Want to get directly to some breaking news now this morning. We are being told by a senior administration official that U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has delivered his resignation to President Bush. It happened today just a few moments ago. And once again, a senior administration official telling us here at CNN, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell will resign. There had been some discussion about this quite some time ago. It was still sort of up in the air, though. But we did hear word about it today.

SANCHEZ: This has really gone back and forth, back and forth. Originally, there was the report that he would, because of the differences that he had in terms of the famous Pottery Barn argument with the Iraq. But now, with things starting to become available to him in the Middle East and the possibility that he can get involved in some discussions with the Israelis and the Palestinians, there was talk that he had decided to stay on board. Apparently not.

COLLINS: Yes. And of course obviously some of the things that have been happening recently with the death of Yasser Arafat, maybe that had something to do with it. Certainly don't want to speculate, though, but again, that thought had been out there for quite some time, that he would be resigning. We've seen a few other people in the administration, of course, as we've been talking about over the past couple of days, make similar decisions to leave the second portion of the Bush administration. Now we can give you a list of a few of those, John Ashcroft, Don Evans, deputy -- he was commerce secretary, of course, Deputy Director John McLaughlin. We just talked about him a little earlier today, with the CIA. Michael Shuler (ph), of course the former head of the CIA. He was in charge of Al Qaeda. So some people that we also have today, announcement of Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham as well.

So not totally uncommon that a lot of people leave during the second portion of the administration.

SANCHEZ: We've just gotten some information from Andrea Koppel, our correspondent over at State Department. She's telling us right now that he has said that he will stay on until his replacement is found. Important to note. Andrea Koppel once again confirming now that he won't be stepping away right away. In fact, he's going to stay on until his replacement is found.

We do have correspondents that are following the story, and we'll try to be hooking up with them as soon as we possibly can.

COLLINS: In fact, we have one right now. Standing outside the White House is our Suzanne Malveaux to give us the very latest on all of this.

Suzanne, good morning.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning.

We have learned that Secretary of State Colin Powell announced to his senior staff this morning that he is stepping down. He submitted his letter of resignation on Friday to the president. It is expected that he will stay until a replacement is found. This is not surprising news. He has been talking about this very quietly to many of his friends, and some colleagues, that he did not plan to stay for a second term.

Of course, there's much speculation about who is going to be filling his shoes. There have been a number of names tossed about, one of them policy director Elliot Abrams, also, of course, deputy and national security adviser Steve Hadley among some of those. But the secretary saying that he is not going to actually remove, or he's not going to step down until they actually find a replacement.

Now this comes, of course, at the same time there will be, we expect, some announcements about some other secretaries, as well. Secretary of Energy Spence Abraham is also going to be stepping down, we have been told by a senior administration official. We have also been told that the Secretary of Education Rod Paige is not planning on a second term, that this is something that he is talking about, made public over the weekend, but will become official today.

COLLINS: Suzanne, if you had to characterize this in all the years that you've been following the White House, would you say this was a surprise? I mean, as you mentioned this has been talked about for some time with Colin Powell.

MALVEAUX: It certainly isn't a surprise at all. It was simply a matter of time. Many people were speculating that he was not going to stay for a second term. As a matter of fact, he has said that quietly and privately to many people, that he did not have the intention. And as you know, of course, Secretary Powell perhaps one of those in this administration who was the least enthusiastic, most reluctant to go to war in Iraq. There was a lot of talk about the debate between, if you will, the secretary of state as well as Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, as well as Wolfowitz, some of their debates, and perhaps even sometimes tension around the Iraq war. But it was well seen, and well expected that Secretary Powell was going to step down.

COLLINS: Even though not much of a surprise, still would be interested to know the reaction of President Bush. You say this resignation was actually handed to him on Friday, not today?

MALVEAUX: That's right. He submitted his letter on Friday. We are told that the president has not yet made an announcement, of course, about whether or not he is going to accept that resignation. But it is quite clear that that is likely, because he has announced to his senior staff this morning that he, in fact, did submit that letter. It's not surprising.

What is going to be very interesting, however, to note is what happens to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. A lot of speculation about whether or not she is going to be offered the secretary of state position, in Powell's replacement. Still no word on that. And we are told at least one senior administration official, they don't expect an announcement on Rice's future today.

COLLINS: Any idea what Colin Powell may have in store for himself, plans for himself, and his staff for that matter as well? MALVEAUX: Well, certainly, as you know of course, he is an author. He has been on a lecture series. He's a four-star general. He has a long, extensive resume. It's not surprising that he'll go forth and talk on the political circuit, as well as of course he wants to spend time with his family. He's been -- he's made it known for quite some time that he would like to spend more time with his wife, and pursue some other interests.

COLLINS: And if I remember correctly she has made it known, as well.

Suzanne Malveaux, thanks so much. Appreciate that.

SANCHEZ: Let's do this -- let's Bring in our senior political analyst Jeff Greenfield, who's also weighing in on this story. And as we do that we'd like to welcome our viewers from all over the world who are joining us now on CNN International. What significance does this have to this administration, Jeff?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Well, the easiest thing to say is they're losing the most popular member of the administration. Colin Powell's approval ratings were higher pretty much throughout this first term than the president's, than any member of the cabinet. Certainly than the vice president. So there is that. He was certainly a symbol to the more moderate elements in the Republican Party, a self-described Rockefeller Republican. Pro-affirmative action, pro-choice on domestic policies, seen as much more of an internationalist than, for instance, the vice president, or the secretary of defense or the so-called neoconservatives who have some influence in this administration.

And we won't know, I think, until we see who the replacement is whether augurs a change of emphasis.

But the other thing to remember is that, as Suzanne mentioned, the worst-kept secret in Washington has been the battles between Colin Powell and his allies in the State Department. And Donald Rumsfeld over at Defense, Vice President Cheney's office. So, you know, their conflicts have been a matter of record.

SANCHEZ: Oftentimes when there have been decisions that needed to be made by this White House, and you had Rumsfeld on one hand, or Vice President Dick Cheney on one hand, going in and making an argument to the president, and Colin Powell going in and making another argument to the president, it seemed, Jeff, that Colin Powell -- Jeff, are you there? Did we lose you? Apparently we can't...

GREENFIELD: Yes...

SANCHEZ: Are you there, Jeff?

GREENFIELD: I do not hear anything of that, Richard, because the gremlins in the control room have taken me out of your ear.

SANCHEZ: Let's try it again then.

GREENFIELD: Now I hear you.

SANCHEZ: It seemed like whenever there was a decision to be made in the White House and Rumsfeld or Cheney came in with one argument, and Colin Powell came in with the other, that it was Cheney or Rumsfeld who won that argument. Does it seem like in the future there will be another person, or will the administration look to another person to maybe be that moderating voice?

GREENFIELD: That's why I said we won't know what this really means until we see who Colin Powell's replacement is. But you're right, there were times in the past when Powell allies who said, look, he has a lot of influence with respect with what to do with North Korea, with other areas. But in a way, that's like saying, apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? On the big issue, whether or not to go to war with Iraq, under what circumstances, with what evidence, on what timetable, it's pretty clear that Vice President Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld had the upper hand.

And as I say in Washington, where, as John Kennedy would say the ship of state leaks from the top, it was absolutely common knowledge that Powell's people hailed Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney's office in what the British called minimum high regard. There were really bitter arguments about basic policies. And we don't know whether or not the president's going to want a Powell-like voice in at state until we see who he picks.

SANCHEZ: Is there any indication at all, and I know you have some certainly great sources on stories like this, that part of the reason he's making this decision is because of some of those bitter divides.

As a matter of fact, Jeff, just to let you know, we're getting the very first pictures now of Secretary Powell. We're told he's inside that limousine driving away. He's leaving the White House as we speak. Don't know about any conversations that may have taken place there. But back to my question, has anyone been able to pin down whether or not the reason he's living -- leaving is because there are those differences or those divides that simply can't be connected?

GREENFIELD: I think in the next 24 to 48 hours, when the leak becomes a flood, you'll see all kinds of insider stories, people with a lot better sources than I, about why this happened.

But look, we know two things, Powell was constantly overridden by the president in terms of deciding whose advice to follow on the big issues. And second, it's also no secret that, you know, his wife, Alma, enjoyed the years they spent in private life after a lifetime in the military. He was making really good money as an author and speaker. They had their life back. And we ought to remember that even the top policymakers and movers and shakers are also human beings with spouses and family, and there is a real reason to believe that Powell was just also tired after four years. You know, who knew when he took office he'd be faced with the worst terrorist attack in American history and two wars. Maybe a little rest is also a big reason, but we're going to know that in a couple of days. SANCHEZ: And yet, you know, this last week, as you know, Jeff, there's been all this talk that suddenly there was a new reason for Secretary Powell to stay on board, and that was this possibility that there might be an opening between the Israelis and the Palestinians. What do you make of that?

GREENFIELD: Not much. I'm always amused to see people who absolutely assert that they know what's going to happen and then the reverse happens, and then they have all kind of explanations to why they knew it all along. I don't profess to a lot of inside knowledge about what's going on at the State Department, or the Defense Department or public policy. But it's a good lesson here that when people say -- when people try to analyze what's going to happen before it happens, like we learned with the exit polls and the election, might be better to wait and find out what we learn now that this decision has been made and publicly announced.

SANCHEZ: And let's look at the big picture now, Jeff, before we let you go -- John Ashcroft, Don Evans, deputy director John McLaughlin, now we hear Spencer Abraham over in Energy, sounds like the secretary of education, Rodney Page, is probably going to be stepping down as well, and of course now we hear Colin Powell. Is that a lot of people?

GREENFIELD: Not really. Not compared to -- this is an administration that's got four more years. All those people you mentioned have given it four years. A lot of them need to make money. Government salaries are not comparable to what these folks mostly could make in the private sector. They're burned out. They're tired of working seven-day weeks. And that's why I say that you can't disregard the human factor. This is not unusual for any administration that's just been elected to a second term. You know, go look at the Clinton administration, or the Reagan administration, or -- those are the last two that I can remember. This is reasonably normal.

And the other thing, and this may not be politically correct to point out, is that with a couple of exceptions, Powell and Ashcroft, cabinet members don't have the power they used to have a generation ago. The White House makes policy. We make a big deal about the cabinet members, but economic policy is not set in the Commerce Department. Education policy is not set in the Education Department. It's the president and his inner circle that set those policies in most cases. So we don't really want to make -- well I guess in the 24-hour networks, we'll make more of it than we might anyway. But we really shouldn't...

Education policy is not set in the Education Department. It's the president and his inner circle that set those policies in most cases. So we don't really want to make -- well, I guess in the 24-hour network we'll make more of it than we might anyway. But we really shouldn't emphasize, with the exception of an Ashcroft and a Powell, those are first tier cabinet departments with clear power, a lot of these are really kind of changing the mannequins in the window, if I may be blunt.

SANCHEZ: Just to bring you all up to date who may possibly just be joining us now, we're bringing you the very latest information, and that is a story that we here at CNN learned of not long ago, that Secretary of State Colin Powell has submitted his resignation to President George Bush.

COLLINS: That's right. He has told his aides that he will be leaving. That happened today. But he did, in fact, offer that letter to President Bush on Friday.

And Jeff, before we let you go, Heidi here now, would love to know your thoughts on the possibility of Condoleezza Rice stepping into that role. We have talked about that a little bit. But today your thoughts. And once again, as you answer that question, we are looking at some video here of Colin Powell getting into his car, leaving the White House, and carrying out about his day. What do you think?

GREENFIELD: Well, the reason I had no thoughts about this, Heidi, is that I simply don't know. This is another one of those areas where it's an indoor sport in Washington of endless speculation. If I knew I would be happy to tell you.

She has some under some criticism from the State Department itself and from some of Colin Powell's allies as not playing the role that a national security adviser should play of balancing the conflicting pieces of advice.

On the other hand we do know she's very close to the president, has almost a familial relationship with the president and Mrs. Bush. But beyond that I'd be happy to tell you what I thought I knew. But you've now learned what I know, which is not much.

COLLINS: Right. I guess I'm just wondering more about her experience level and what she would bring to the table for a position like secretary of state.

GREENFIELD: Well, you know, it wouldn't be the first time a national security adviser has stepped up. But the last time I can remember that happening was Henry Kissinger who in effect was secretary of state before he ever got the job. I don't think Condoleezza Rice has nearly the kind of clout in this administration that Kissinger did in the Nixon administration. So I don't think those examples tell us very much. I'm willing to wait and see.

COLLINS: All right. We certainly do appreciate it. And as you mentioned, a really great point that we sometimes forget that these people are people. They run countries, they make all of these policies. They go and have relations, very strange relations sometimes with other countries, internationally of course, as a secretary of state that happens. And a guy can get tired, right, Jeff? GREENFIELD: Yes, look, this is a man who spent his life in the military. Then he moved up into the position of chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. Before that, national security adviser. And at some point after several decades he said, you know, my wife Alma has lived my life for the first 25 or 30 years. Now we're going to live her life. And that lasted four years until George W. Bush asked him to be secretary of state. This is also a man who at one point, back in the mid '90s, was seriously considering a run for the presidency.

COLLINS: That's right.

GREENFIELD: A run that a lot of people thought he might have had some chance at winning. So you look at the guy's life and you look at the frustrations that must have been -- if these stories are halfway true, must have been part of his daily life as he lived the last four years. On a pure human level, as you say, Heidi, would you like to put your feet up, not have to wake up every morning at 6:00 wondering what part of the world is blown up? You can understand this decision on a personal level, as well.

COLLINS: Of course, and as you say, you mentioned his wife, certainly a portion of this, been married since 1962, and you also mentioned his military background. This is someone who already has an extensive resume. Listen to this, just for everybody who may not know, some of the awards and honors: Legion of Merit, Bronze Star, Air Medal, Soldiers Medal and two Purple Hearts. So he has certainly -- that's just in his military service. He certainly has quite a life racked up for himself.

GREENFIELD: There's a story that I heard, I think it was Clinton's second term, it was a dinner and Colin Powell asked the assembled people, a lot of journalists were there, which of you has ever had to sacrifice something for your country? And he wasn't asking it in a personal vindictive way. Just a question. And when you look at someone like Colin Powell, who basically, it sounds like a cliche but in his case it's true, spent his life in service to his country, literally bled for his country, the idea of wanting to spend some time harvesting your own pleasures, your own desires, this is a guy you can't say no, you can't do that.

There's always a crisis. There's always a reason not to leave. But as Charles de Gaulle once said, the graveyards are filled with indispensable men. And at some point people may just want their life back. That's not to say there weren't serious policy reasons, as we've mentioned that might well have frustrated him. And there will be plenty of leaks from Powell's friends and foes that will be filling the papers and the magazines and the television screens in the last couple of days.

But it's probably useful to pause and say, yes, how about on a personal level, this is a guy who likes to repair old cars. He likes old rock 'n' roll music, sings it very badly. I've heard him. But with great gusto. So there's a part of that that's part of this decision I suspect.

SANCHEZ: Hey, Jeff, Heidi, we've got some new information coming in. This is from the press secretary at the White House. The information that we're getting is that there will be four people stepping down today at the White House. Two other, I imagine, cabinet post position, or cabinet level positions as it's being worded.

Two we know, Spencer Abraham and Colin Powell, for those of you who have been watching us. We don't know who the other two might be. They're also saying from the White House today that there will be no nominees named today. So two more Jeff Greenfield. What do you make of that?

GREENFIELD: Well, like I say, it's pretty customary in an administration going to a second four years. It would not surprise me if Education Secretary Paige is one of them since that has been booted (ph) about.

But, you know, I realize it isn't what a journalist is supposed to say but I'm willing to wait and see who they tell us. The Powell story is the big news. That is the -- that's the first in line in the cabinet, you know, the most -- not only the most prestigious, but by law, if, God forbid, the people in front of him couldn't succeed to the presidency, secretary of state is first up. It's the cabinet post at the head of the table. And it's one that we, you know, that that's the most prestigious and weighty. So this will be the headline.

SANCHEZ: And we should probably mention that we -- when you and I were talking a little while ago, we mentioned that there were certainly some differences between Secretary Powell and many members of the administration, including the president himself. But he was never obstructionist in the ways that he disagreed. In fact it would usually be found out through back channels, wouldn't it?

GREENFIELD: We don't have a tradition in the United States as they do in Great Britain of cabinet officials, important leaders resigning on principle. In the 20th Century, by my count there were two secretaries of state who quit on policy differences. William Jennings Bryan quit because he opposed Woodrow Wilson's entry into World War I. Secretary of state Cy Vance quit because he opposed Jimmy Carter's attempt to rescue the Iranian hostages in 1980.

The general rule in the United States is that you bite the bullet, you take one for the team, whatever cliche you want, and you stay, and some of the arguments says I can do more good on the inside fighting for what I believe than the outside. I'm sure there were people -- strong opponents of the president's Iraq policy who wished that Colin Powell would leave in protest. This is simply not what is done in this country by and large. You could argue that it should. And in Colin Powell's case he is both literally and metaphorically a good soldier.

SANCHEZ: Jeff Greenfield, our senior political analyst. Thanks for hanging in there with us.

COLLINS: Yes, thanks, Jeff. And quickly, we're running out of time. But we want to get live to the State Department. We have our State Department producer on the air for us, Elise Labott. Elise, tell us what the word is now that you're hearing at the State Department upon the news of the resignation of Secretary of State Colin Powell?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT PRODUCER: Well, Heidi, Secretary Powell told his staff this morning that he would be leaving in the new transition, calling this part of the normal transition after a new secretary of state was named and confirmed.

Secretary of state was really beloved at the State Department. He was really credited with moving morale up at the State Department. It was very low after Secretary of State Albright left. And what his aides are telling us is that he and the president decided mutually that it's time for him to go.

The president is looking for his new cabinet. And it was an appropriate time for him to go. His aides telling us secretary of state will be working until the very last day, a lot going on as you know, elections in Iraq coming up, trying to move forward the Middle East peace process. Trying to get the North Koreans to talk in these six-way party talks. And also trying to move things forward with Iran. So a very full agenda with the secretary of state in the month or two ahead.

COLLINS: All right, Elise Labott, thanks so much, coming to us live this morning from the State Department. Our producer there.

Unbelievable news this morning. Even though there had been quite a bit of talk about it, when you actually get the word, people not really prepared.

SANCHEZ: And like we had said, there was a possibility last week, certainly there was a lot of talk from so-called insiders that he may be changing his mind. That he may want to stick around and see that situation through with between the Palestinians...

COLLINS: Didn't happen.

SANCHEZ: Didn't happen, apparently not going to happen. But Colin Powell, we here at CNN confirm that -- has submitted his resignation. A lot of talk about Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham, and also Secretary of Education Rodney Paige.

COLLINS: And one more unknown that I think we'll probably hear about in the next few minutes, hours possibly, right here on CNN. For now though we appreciate you watching AMERICAN MORNING.

We're going to turn things over to Daryn Kagan and Tony Harris, they're at the CNN Center now to take us through the next few hours on CNN "LIVE TODAY."

Certainly a lot going on, guys.

KAGAN: Absolutely. Thank you for that. You guys have a great day in New York City.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 15, 2004 - 09:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Just about half past the hour now on this AMERICAN MORNING. Bill and Soledad are off this morning. In a few minutes, we're going to go back to the Scott Peterson trial, hear what lawyers must do now to keep Peterson off death row. We'll look at the defense's strategy and why they may be in for a tough battle.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Also we're going to talk to the man who discovered the Titanic nearly 20 years ago. I guess he didn't discover it. He found it. It was under the ocean. He says even at the bottom of the ocean, the fames ocean liner is no longer safe. We're going to look at what's happening to the Titanic and who is causing some of these problems.

First, though, let's get a check on who's now in news with Daryn Kagan. She's at the CNN Center in Atlanta.

HI, Daryn.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Rick, good morning.

Now in the news, U.S. warplanes, backed by troops, searching house to house, pounding insurgent targets in Falluja. Today's strikes come a day after a U.S. marine commander said U.S. and Iraqi forces had, quote, "liberated the city," but officials say it could take several more days of fighting before the city is secured.

Secretary of State Colin Powell is expected to visit with the new Palestinian leadership. Details of the visit have not been worked out yet.

Meanwhile, investigators are still looking into yesterday's shooting incident in Gaza. Masked gunmen burst in on interim Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas. At least two security guards were killed. Some 10 others were wounded. Abbas escaped unharmed.

The man who shot former President Ronald Reagan could soon find out if he'll be granted more freedom. John Hinckley Jr. has been in a psychiatric hospital since 1981. His lawyers have asked that he be allowed more time for visits at his parents' home. Closing arguments on that request are set for today.

And supporters of Arnold Schwarzenegger are pushing for a change to the U.S. Constitution. New TV ads begin airing in California this morning. They push for a U.S. constitutional amendment to let foreign-born citizens run for president. The ads are sponsored by amendus.org, an organization made up of Schwarzenegger donors and campaign supporters. Rick, back to you in New York?

SANCHEZ: And what do you got coming up at 10:00, Daryn?

KAGAN: Well, we're going to be following the latest news, of course, as well as something that will be of great interest to those in New York City, or who have visited New York City. A man has taken photographs from the 1930s. You see what New York looked like then, and you see what it looks like now. Fascinating contrast.

SANCHEZ: Sounds good. Thanks.

All right, we'll be talking to you. Heidi,over to you.

COLLINS: The jury that found Scott Peterson guilty of killing his wife has a week off before they begin to determine his punishment.

Rusty Dornin has more now from Redwood City, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury further find the degree of the murder to be that of the first degree.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's guilty. Now a jury must decide whether to give Scott Peterson life or death for the murders of his wife and unborn son.

This week, attorneys for both sides will put together their cases for the penalty phase of the trial. The defense will portray Peterson as a nice guy, with no criminal record, upstanding member of the community, someone a neighbor in trouble could call upon. But prosecutors will paint him as a liar and a cheat, a man with a murderous plan that he coldly carried out.

ROBERT TALBOT, LEGAL ANALYST: Scott's life doesn't have the kind of mitigation that's usually available. He doesn't have this deprived childhood. He doesn't have any kind of mental illness.

DORNIN: Following the verdict back in Laci and Scott Peterson's hometown, their small Modesto home, the scene of the crime according to prosecutors, became a shrine once again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think justice has been -- is intact.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's guilty. I'm so thankful that they've seen the wrong he done.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's good, it's good, for the family. So, I'm happy about that, but it's a closure.

DORNIN: Rusty Dornin, CNN, Redwood City, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLLINS: A gag order remains in place for the families and everyone involved in the trial. The judge anticipates by the first week in December, the jury of six men and six women will begin deliberating Peterson's punishment -- Rick.

SANCHEZ: It's been almost 20 years since oceanographer Robert Ballard Discovered the Titanic. Now in a new book, "Return to Titanic: A New Look at the World's Most Famous Lost Ship," Ballard details his expedition in June to study the deterioration of the wreck, and a secret government investigation, as well. He starts by explaining that investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERT BALLARD, EXPLORER/OCEANOGRAPHER: Our program was to not only expose the Titanic, but the technology was actually to explore the USS Scorpion and the USS Thrasher, which were two nuclear submarines we lost during the Cold War.

SANCHEZ: So our government, our U.S. Navy, which you were a part of, right, at that time...

BALLARD: Thirty-three years.

SANCHEZ: They were telling the public, look, we're doing this special expedition down in Atlantic where we're looking for the Titanic. They weren't looking for the Atlantic (sic). They were trying to get information on the Russians and the USSR, right?

BALLARD: Well, they were really concerned whether the Soviets were going to our downed submarines, because they had nuclear weapons on them, they had nuclear reactors, and we obviously during the Cold War were really concerned about what the Soviets might be doing, and it was also a way, as you'll see in the "National Geographic" special that's on December 16th, it -- the Navy really declassifies it. They were sending the Soviets a message.

SANCHEZ: You and I have to talk a lot about the possible deterioration of the Titanic. But before we get to that, I know you delve into this in your great book, which is worth buying, if nothing else, for the pictures alone, because it's so eerie. But was it the iceberg and the gash caused on the side of the ship that did bring it down?

BALLARD: Absolutely.

SANCHEZ: No question about that.

BALLARD: It sank. It hit an iceberg, and that's what did it.

SANCHEZ: Let me move to the lifeboats then. Why weren't there enough of them?

BALLARD: Well, you know, it was obeying the law, they didn't have to. Believe it or not, back then, you didn't have to carry enough lifeboats for all the people aboard.

SANCHEZ: What does that mean? Only some of these people are worth saving?

BALLARD: Well, the first class evidently.

SANCHEZ: Oh, my god.

BALLARD: But since then, lots of laws have been written as a result of the loss of the -- the creation of the International Ice Patrol, so they would actually be following icebergs. Radio operators would stay up, you know, 24 hours a day. So the Titanic led to a lot of new laws.

SANCHEZ: You've been going back in the last 20 years or so, and now you've just recently gone back to see what effect all this study and all this tourist stuff has had on the ship and you don't like what you've seen, right?

BALLARD: Well, as you can see, there's a lot of damage that's been done to the Titanic, some of it naturally, but a lot of it by submarines, like here, a submarine crashed into the first officer's cabin. So Titanic is really being loved to death, and what we're trying to do through this "National Geographic" TV special, and also the book and the magazine story is to draw attention to the Titanic and try to get other nations to sign the new treaty. There's a new treaty that the United States and England have signed. We're trying to get Russia and France to sign it, because it's their submarines that are doing most of the sub damage.

SANCHEZ: What kind of treaty?

BALLARD: That you can go...

SANCHEZ: Like a paparazzi rule?

BALLARD: Exactly. It's sort of like going to the Arizona in Pearl Harbor. Why should the Titanic not be treated like the Arizona and Pearl Harbor? You go there, but you don't take belt buckles off the ship.

SANCHEZ: Well, you've come up with something that I think is really cool. You've got a way for people to check out the Titanic any time they want, and to dive all the way down there; they don't have to leave their living rooms.

BALLARD: Exactly. When we did this special on National Geographic Channel, we came live from the deck of the Titanic. We're now installing undersea camera systems in NOAA's national marine sanctuaries. You can sit in my office in Connecticut and drive undersea robots in Monterey Bay's Kelp Forest (ph) right now. So we see the day will come when undersea robots will be the way that you visit it, and you'll visit it whenever you want to.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Interestingly enough, people have taken over 6,000 artifacts from the Titanic's wreck since Ballard found the site. That was back in 1985 -- Heidi. COLLINS: Want to get directly to some breaking news now this morning. We are being told by a senior administration official that U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has delivered his resignation to President Bush. It happened today just a few moments ago. And once again, a senior administration official telling us here at CNN, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell will resign. There had been some discussion about this quite some time ago. It was still sort of up in the air, though. But we did hear word about it today.

SANCHEZ: This has really gone back and forth, back and forth. Originally, there was the report that he would, because of the differences that he had in terms of the famous Pottery Barn argument with the Iraq. But now, with things starting to become available to him in the Middle East and the possibility that he can get involved in some discussions with the Israelis and the Palestinians, there was talk that he had decided to stay on board. Apparently not.

COLLINS: Yes. And of course obviously some of the things that have been happening recently with the death of Yasser Arafat, maybe that had something to do with it. Certainly don't want to speculate, though, but again, that thought had been out there for quite some time, that he would be resigning. We've seen a few other people in the administration, of course, as we've been talking about over the past couple of days, make similar decisions to leave the second portion of the Bush administration. Now we can give you a list of a few of those, John Ashcroft, Don Evans, deputy -- he was commerce secretary, of course, Deputy Director John McLaughlin. We just talked about him a little earlier today, with the CIA. Michael Shuler (ph), of course the former head of the CIA. He was in charge of Al Qaeda. So some people that we also have today, announcement of Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham as well.

So not totally uncommon that a lot of people leave during the second portion of the administration.

SANCHEZ: We've just gotten some information from Andrea Koppel, our correspondent over at State Department. She's telling us right now that he has said that he will stay on until his replacement is found. Important to note. Andrea Koppel once again confirming now that he won't be stepping away right away. In fact, he's going to stay on until his replacement is found.

We do have correspondents that are following the story, and we'll try to be hooking up with them as soon as we possibly can.

COLLINS: In fact, we have one right now. Standing outside the White House is our Suzanne Malveaux to give us the very latest on all of this.

Suzanne, good morning.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning.

We have learned that Secretary of State Colin Powell announced to his senior staff this morning that he is stepping down. He submitted his letter of resignation on Friday to the president. It is expected that he will stay until a replacement is found. This is not surprising news. He has been talking about this very quietly to many of his friends, and some colleagues, that he did not plan to stay for a second term.

Of course, there's much speculation about who is going to be filling his shoes. There have been a number of names tossed about, one of them policy director Elliot Abrams, also, of course, deputy and national security adviser Steve Hadley among some of those. But the secretary saying that he is not going to actually remove, or he's not going to step down until they actually find a replacement.

Now this comes, of course, at the same time there will be, we expect, some announcements about some other secretaries, as well. Secretary of Energy Spence Abraham is also going to be stepping down, we have been told by a senior administration official. We have also been told that the Secretary of Education Rod Paige is not planning on a second term, that this is something that he is talking about, made public over the weekend, but will become official today.

COLLINS: Suzanne, if you had to characterize this in all the years that you've been following the White House, would you say this was a surprise? I mean, as you mentioned this has been talked about for some time with Colin Powell.

MALVEAUX: It certainly isn't a surprise at all. It was simply a matter of time. Many people were speculating that he was not going to stay for a second term. As a matter of fact, he has said that quietly and privately to many people, that he did not have the intention. And as you know, of course, Secretary Powell perhaps one of those in this administration who was the least enthusiastic, most reluctant to go to war in Iraq. There was a lot of talk about the debate between, if you will, the secretary of state as well as Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, as well as Wolfowitz, some of their debates, and perhaps even sometimes tension around the Iraq war. But it was well seen, and well expected that Secretary Powell was going to step down.

COLLINS: Even though not much of a surprise, still would be interested to know the reaction of President Bush. You say this resignation was actually handed to him on Friday, not today?

MALVEAUX: That's right. He submitted his letter on Friday. We are told that the president has not yet made an announcement, of course, about whether or not he is going to accept that resignation. But it is quite clear that that is likely, because he has announced to his senior staff this morning that he, in fact, did submit that letter. It's not surprising.

What is going to be very interesting, however, to note is what happens to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. A lot of speculation about whether or not she is going to be offered the secretary of state position, in Powell's replacement. Still no word on that. And we are told at least one senior administration official, they don't expect an announcement on Rice's future today.

COLLINS: Any idea what Colin Powell may have in store for himself, plans for himself, and his staff for that matter as well? MALVEAUX: Well, certainly, as you know of course, he is an author. He has been on a lecture series. He's a four-star general. He has a long, extensive resume. It's not surprising that he'll go forth and talk on the political circuit, as well as of course he wants to spend time with his family. He's been -- he's made it known for quite some time that he would like to spend more time with his wife, and pursue some other interests.

COLLINS: And if I remember correctly she has made it known, as well.

Suzanne Malveaux, thanks so much. Appreciate that.

SANCHEZ: Let's do this -- let's Bring in our senior political analyst Jeff Greenfield, who's also weighing in on this story. And as we do that we'd like to welcome our viewers from all over the world who are joining us now on CNN International. What significance does this have to this administration, Jeff?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Well, the easiest thing to say is they're losing the most popular member of the administration. Colin Powell's approval ratings were higher pretty much throughout this first term than the president's, than any member of the cabinet. Certainly than the vice president. So there is that. He was certainly a symbol to the more moderate elements in the Republican Party, a self-described Rockefeller Republican. Pro-affirmative action, pro-choice on domestic policies, seen as much more of an internationalist than, for instance, the vice president, or the secretary of defense or the so-called neoconservatives who have some influence in this administration.

And we won't know, I think, until we see who the replacement is whether augurs a change of emphasis.

But the other thing to remember is that, as Suzanne mentioned, the worst-kept secret in Washington has been the battles between Colin Powell and his allies in the State Department. And Donald Rumsfeld over at Defense, Vice President Cheney's office. So, you know, their conflicts have been a matter of record.

SANCHEZ: Oftentimes when there have been decisions that needed to be made by this White House, and you had Rumsfeld on one hand, or Vice President Dick Cheney on one hand, going in and making an argument to the president, and Colin Powell going in and making another argument to the president, it seemed, Jeff, that Colin Powell -- Jeff, are you there? Did we lose you? Apparently we can't...

GREENFIELD: Yes...

SANCHEZ: Are you there, Jeff?

GREENFIELD: I do not hear anything of that, Richard, because the gremlins in the control room have taken me out of your ear.

SANCHEZ: Let's try it again then.

GREENFIELD: Now I hear you.

SANCHEZ: It seemed like whenever there was a decision to be made in the White House and Rumsfeld or Cheney came in with one argument, and Colin Powell came in with the other, that it was Cheney or Rumsfeld who won that argument. Does it seem like in the future there will be another person, or will the administration look to another person to maybe be that moderating voice?

GREENFIELD: That's why I said we won't know what this really means until we see who Colin Powell's replacement is. But you're right, there were times in the past when Powell allies who said, look, he has a lot of influence with respect with what to do with North Korea, with other areas. But in a way, that's like saying, apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? On the big issue, whether or not to go to war with Iraq, under what circumstances, with what evidence, on what timetable, it's pretty clear that Vice President Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld had the upper hand.

And as I say in Washington, where, as John Kennedy would say the ship of state leaks from the top, it was absolutely common knowledge that Powell's people hailed Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney's office in what the British called minimum high regard. There were really bitter arguments about basic policies. And we don't know whether or not the president's going to want a Powell-like voice in at state until we see who he picks.

SANCHEZ: Is there any indication at all, and I know you have some certainly great sources on stories like this, that part of the reason he's making this decision is because of some of those bitter divides.

As a matter of fact, Jeff, just to let you know, we're getting the very first pictures now of Secretary Powell. We're told he's inside that limousine driving away. He's leaving the White House as we speak. Don't know about any conversations that may have taken place there. But back to my question, has anyone been able to pin down whether or not the reason he's living -- leaving is because there are those differences or those divides that simply can't be connected?

GREENFIELD: I think in the next 24 to 48 hours, when the leak becomes a flood, you'll see all kinds of insider stories, people with a lot better sources than I, about why this happened.

But look, we know two things, Powell was constantly overridden by the president in terms of deciding whose advice to follow on the big issues. And second, it's also no secret that, you know, his wife, Alma, enjoyed the years they spent in private life after a lifetime in the military. He was making really good money as an author and speaker. They had their life back. And we ought to remember that even the top policymakers and movers and shakers are also human beings with spouses and family, and there is a real reason to believe that Powell was just also tired after four years. You know, who knew when he took office he'd be faced with the worst terrorist attack in American history and two wars. Maybe a little rest is also a big reason, but we're going to know that in a couple of days. SANCHEZ: And yet, you know, this last week, as you know, Jeff, there's been all this talk that suddenly there was a new reason for Secretary Powell to stay on board, and that was this possibility that there might be an opening between the Israelis and the Palestinians. What do you make of that?

GREENFIELD: Not much. I'm always amused to see people who absolutely assert that they know what's going to happen and then the reverse happens, and then they have all kind of explanations to why they knew it all along. I don't profess to a lot of inside knowledge about what's going on at the State Department, or the Defense Department or public policy. But it's a good lesson here that when people say -- when people try to analyze what's going to happen before it happens, like we learned with the exit polls and the election, might be better to wait and find out what we learn now that this decision has been made and publicly announced.

SANCHEZ: And let's look at the big picture now, Jeff, before we let you go -- John Ashcroft, Don Evans, deputy director John McLaughlin, now we hear Spencer Abraham over in Energy, sounds like the secretary of education, Rodney Page, is probably going to be stepping down as well, and of course now we hear Colin Powell. Is that a lot of people?

GREENFIELD: Not really. Not compared to -- this is an administration that's got four more years. All those people you mentioned have given it four years. A lot of them need to make money. Government salaries are not comparable to what these folks mostly could make in the private sector. They're burned out. They're tired of working seven-day weeks. And that's why I say that you can't disregard the human factor. This is not unusual for any administration that's just been elected to a second term. You know, go look at the Clinton administration, or the Reagan administration, or -- those are the last two that I can remember. This is reasonably normal.

And the other thing, and this may not be politically correct to point out, is that with a couple of exceptions, Powell and Ashcroft, cabinet members don't have the power they used to have a generation ago. The White House makes policy. We make a big deal about the cabinet members, but economic policy is not set in the Commerce Department. Education policy is not set in the Education Department. It's the president and his inner circle that set those policies in most cases. So we don't really want to make -- well I guess in the 24-hour networks, we'll make more of it than we might anyway. But we really shouldn't...

Education policy is not set in the Education Department. It's the president and his inner circle that set those policies in most cases. So we don't really want to make -- well, I guess in the 24-hour network we'll make more of it than we might anyway. But we really shouldn't emphasize, with the exception of an Ashcroft and a Powell, those are first tier cabinet departments with clear power, a lot of these are really kind of changing the mannequins in the window, if I may be blunt.

SANCHEZ: Just to bring you all up to date who may possibly just be joining us now, we're bringing you the very latest information, and that is a story that we here at CNN learned of not long ago, that Secretary of State Colin Powell has submitted his resignation to President George Bush.

COLLINS: That's right. He has told his aides that he will be leaving. That happened today. But he did, in fact, offer that letter to President Bush on Friday.

And Jeff, before we let you go, Heidi here now, would love to know your thoughts on the possibility of Condoleezza Rice stepping into that role. We have talked about that a little bit. But today your thoughts. And once again, as you answer that question, we are looking at some video here of Colin Powell getting into his car, leaving the White House, and carrying out about his day. What do you think?

GREENFIELD: Well, the reason I had no thoughts about this, Heidi, is that I simply don't know. This is another one of those areas where it's an indoor sport in Washington of endless speculation. If I knew I would be happy to tell you.

She has some under some criticism from the State Department itself and from some of Colin Powell's allies as not playing the role that a national security adviser should play of balancing the conflicting pieces of advice.

On the other hand we do know she's very close to the president, has almost a familial relationship with the president and Mrs. Bush. But beyond that I'd be happy to tell you what I thought I knew. But you've now learned what I know, which is not much.

COLLINS: Right. I guess I'm just wondering more about her experience level and what she would bring to the table for a position like secretary of state.

GREENFIELD: Well, you know, it wouldn't be the first time a national security adviser has stepped up. But the last time I can remember that happening was Henry Kissinger who in effect was secretary of state before he ever got the job. I don't think Condoleezza Rice has nearly the kind of clout in this administration that Kissinger did in the Nixon administration. So I don't think those examples tell us very much. I'm willing to wait and see.

COLLINS: All right. We certainly do appreciate it. And as you mentioned, a really great point that we sometimes forget that these people are people. They run countries, they make all of these policies. They go and have relations, very strange relations sometimes with other countries, internationally of course, as a secretary of state that happens. And a guy can get tired, right, Jeff? GREENFIELD: Yes, look, this is a man who spent his life in the military. Then he moved up into the position of chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. Before that, national security adviser. And at some point after several decades he said, you know, my wife Alma has lived my life for the first 25 or 30 years. Now we're going to live her life. And that lasted four years until George W. Bush asked him to be secretary of state. This is also a man who at one point, back in the mid '90s, was seriously considering a run for the presidency.

COLLINS: That's right.

GREENFIELD: A run that a lot of people thought he might have had some chance at winning. So you look at the guy's life and you look at the frustrations that must have been -- if these stories are halfway true, must have been part of his daily life as he lived the last four years. On a pure human level, as you say, Heidi, would you like to put your feet up, not have to wake up every morning at 6:00 wondering what part of the world is blown up? You can understand this decision on a personal level, as well.

COLLINS: Of course, and as you say, you mentioned his wife, certainly a portion of this, been married since 1962, and you also mentioned his military background. This is someone who already has an extensive resume. Listen to this, just for everybody who may not know, some of the awards and honors: Legion of Merit, Bronze Star, Air Medal, Soldiers Medal and two Purple Hearts. So he has certainly -- that's just in his military service. He certainly has quite a life racked up for himself.

GREENFIELD: There's a story that I heard, I think it was Clinton's second term, it was a dinner and Colin Powell asked the assembled people, a lot of journalists were there, which of you has ever had to sacrifice something for your country? And he wasn't asking it in a personal vindictive way. Just a question. And when you look at someone like Colin Powell, who basically, it sounds like a cliche but in his case it's true, spent his life in service to his country, literally bled for his country, the idea of wanting to spend some time harvesting your own pleasures, your own desires, this is a guy you can't say no, you can't do that.

There's always a crisis. There's always a reason not to leave. But as Charles de Gaulle once said, the graveyards are filled with indispensable men. And at some point people may just want their life back. That's not to say there weren't serious policy reasons, as we've mentioned that might well have frustrated him. And there will be plenty of leaks from Powell's friends and foes that will be filling the papers and the magazines and the television screens in the last couple of days.

But it's probably useful to pause and say, yes, how about on a personal level, this is a guy who likes to repair old cars. He likes old rock 'n' roll music, sings it very badly. I've heard him. But with great gusto. So there's a part of that that's part of this decision I suspect.

SANCHEZ: Hey, Jeff, Heidi, we've got some new information coming in. This is from the press secretary at the White House. The information that we're getting is that there will be four people stepping down today at the White House. Two other, I imagine, cabinet post position, or cabinet level positions as it's being worded.

Two we know, Spencer Abraham and Colin Powell, for those of you who have been watching us. We don't know who the other two might be. They're also saying from the White House today that there will be no nominees named today. So two more Jeff Greenfield. What do you make of that?

GREENFIELD: Well, like I say, it's pretty customary in an administration going to a second four years. It would not surprise me if Education Secretary Paige is one of them since that has been booted (ph) about.

But, you know, I realize it isn't what a journalist is supposed to say but I'm willing to wait and see who they tell us. The Powell story is the big news. That is the -- that's the first in line in the cabinet, you know, the most -- not only the most prestigious, but by law, if, God forbid, the people in front of him couldn't succeed to the presidency, secretary of state is first up. It's the cabinet post at the head of the table. And it's one that we, you know, that that's the most prestigious and weighty. So this will be the headline.

SANCHEZ: And we should probably mention that we -- when you and I were talking a little while ago, we mentioned that there were certainly some differences between Secretary Powell and many members of the administration, including the president himself. But he was never obstructionist in the ways that he disagreed. In fact it would usually be found out through back channels, wouldn't it?

GREENFIELD: We don't have a tradition in the United States as they do in Great Britain of cabinet officials, important leaders resigning on principle. In the 20th Century, by my count there were two secretaries of state who quit on policy differences. William Jennings Bryan quit because he opposed Woodrow Wilson's entry into World War I. Secretary of state Cy Vance quit because he opposed Jimmy Carter's attempt to rescue the Iranian hostages in 1980.

The general rule in the United States is that you bite the bullet, you take one for the team, whatever cliche you want, and you stay, and some of the arguments says I can do more good on the inside fighting for what I believe than the outside. I'm sure there were people -- strong opponents of the president's Iraq policy who wished that Colin Powell would leave in protest. This is simply not what is done in this country by and large. You could argue that it should. And in Colin Powell's case he is both literally and metaphorically a good soldier.

SANCHEZ: Jeff Greenfield, our senior political analyst. Thanks for hanging in there with us.

COLLINS: Yes, thanks, Jeff. And quickly, we're running out of time. But we want to get live to the State Department. We have our State Department producer on the air for us, Elise Labott. Elise, tell us what the word is now that you're hearing at the State Department upon the news of the resignation of Secretary of State Colin Powell?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT PRODUCER: Well, Heidi, Secretary Powell told his staff this morning that he would be leaving in the new transition, calling this part of the normal transition after a new secretary of state was named and confirmed.

Secretary of state was really beloved at the State Department. He was really credited with moving morale up at the State Department. It was very low after Secretary of State Albright left. And what his aides are telling us is that he and the president decided mutually that it's time for him to go.

The president is looking for his new cabinet. And it was an appropriate time for him to go. His aides telling us secretary of state will be working until the very last day, a lot going on as you know, elections in Iraq coming up, trying to move forward the Middle East peace process. Trying to get the North Koreans to talk in these six-way party talks. And also trying to move things forward with Iran. So a very full agenda with the secretary of state in the month or two ahead.

COLLINS: All right, Elise Labott, thanks so much, coming to us live this morning from the State Department. Our producer there.

Unbelievable news this morning. Even though there had been quite a bit of talk about it, when you actually get the word, people not really prepared.

SANCHEZ: And like we had said, there was a possibility last week, certainly there was a lot of talk from so-called insiders that he may be changing his mind. That he may want to stick around and see that situation through with between the Palestinians...

COLLINS: Didn't happen.

SANCHEZ: Didn't happen, apparently not going to happen. But Colin Powell, we here at CNN confirm that -- has submitted his resignation. A lot of talk about Secretary of Energy Spencer Abraham, and also Secretary of Education Rodney Paige.

COLLINS: And one more unknown that I think we'll probably hear about in the next few minutes, hours possibly, right here on CNN. For now though we appreciate you watching AMERICAN MORNING.

We're going to turn things over to Daryn Kagan and Tony Harris, they're at the CNN Center now to take us through the next few hours on CNN "LIVE TODAY."

Certainly a lot going on, guys.

KAGAN: Absolutely. Thank you for that. You guys have a great day in New York City.

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