Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Powell Resigns; Interview With Sylvan Shalom

Aired November 15, 2004 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now, hunted terrorist. Did the leader of the Iraqi insurgents speak out today?
And will she become the first African-American woman to serve as United States secretary of state? The latest on Condoleezza Rice's future.

Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Powell resigns. The secretary of state leads an exodus from the Bush cabinet.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We were in mutual agreement that it was the appropriate time for me to move on.

BLITZER: Will his departure dash hopes for quick diplomacy in the Middle East? I'll ask Israeli foreign minister Silvan Shalom.

CIA shake-up. As top officers step down, an ex-spy comes in from the cold.

War wounded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can always hear the rocket when it comes. It makes a really distinct whistle.

BLITZER: Paying a price for victory in Falluja.

Stun gun shocker. Why would cops fire 50,000 volts into kids?

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, November 15, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: There were clear disputes with administration hawks over the years, but Colin Powell soldiered on. Now as President Bush gets ready for a second term the secretary of state says he's getting ready to leave. Let's go live to our State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel -- Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, no surprise. For some time now Secretary Powell had signaled that if President Bush won a second term he might not be a part of it but then since the election Powell aides had told me that depending upon who else was in the president's cabinet, Powell might be experiencing a little bit of a change of heart.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): With the passing of Yasser Arafat and elections in Iraq just weeks away, administration officials say Secretary Powell would have liked to stick around a little longer, but the president didn't ask.

POWELL: We had pretty much come to our mutual agreement without anybody having to make any offer, counteroffers, anything like that. We knew where we were heading.

KOPPEL: From the outset it seemed Powell was often out of sync with the president and his rivals in the Bush cabinet. Within weeks of the inauguration in 2001 Powell declared the Bush administration would resume direct talks with North Korea, picking up where the Clinton administration had left off, but the White House disagreed and Powell was forced to backtrack.

POWELL: I got a little too far forward on my skis.

KOPPEL: Always the loyal soldier, Powell worked to put the best face on policies with which he often disagreed.

POWELL: Saddam Hussein and his regime...

KOPPEL: His now infamous presentation to the United Nations in February 2003 on Iraq's alleged program of weapons of mass destruction was later discredited, one of the lowest points of his tenure and while he did persuade President Bush to work through the U.N. to get inspectors back in he failed to convince Mr. Bush to stay the diplomatic course.

JAMES RUBIN, FMR. ASST. SECRETARY OF STATE: Clearly, Colin Powell was the only voice in the Bush administration who recognized a need to go slowly and carefully when it came to invading Iraq.

KOPPEL: At the State Department Powell is credited with boosting morale and enrollment in the foreign service as well as securing more money for the department from Capitol Hill. Overseas, Powell was warmly welcomed by allies who believed he was the lone voice of moderation, but when asked whether his departure would slow down a new opportunity to jumpstart Middle East peace, Powell was ever the diplomat.

POWELL: It is the president's policies that are being pursued and implemented not Colin Powell's.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: Now Powell says he intends to work ahead on those policies in his remaining weeks, perhaps a couple of months until his successor is named and then approved by the new Congress. As for Mr. Powell's future, Wolf, he said he doesn't know what he is going to do next.

BLITZER: Andrea Koppel at the State Department. Thank you, Andrea.

The cabinet shuffle is picking up steam here in Washington. Word came today three more secretaries will be leaving after one term.

Let's go live to our White House correspondent, Dana Bash.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you're right, Wolf. The White House, the president is moving quite quickly now to decide who he wants to stay and who he doesn't want to stay in his second term. There were really four done in one fell swoop. You see them on the screen now. Of course as Andrea was reporting, Secretary of State Colin Powell was the first of the president's national security team to bow out of a second term, but also the Education Secretary Rod Paige who came here with Mr. Bush from Texas said he was going to resign. The Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, somebody who lost his bid for reelection for Senate from Michigan four years ago and then was tapped to come to the administration. He's going to go back to private life and the Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman.

There are now, Wolf, six openings, six openings out of the 15 cabinet positions of the Bush White House. Only one successor has been named and that of course is Alberto Gonzales, the White House chief counsel. He has been appointed, at least named, has to be confirmed still to be attorney general.

There is word from senior officials here at the White House that in all likelihood Secretary of State Powell's vacancy will be filled they hope here at the White House by his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. She, of course, is one of the president's most trusted advisers. She had talked to associates about perhaps wanting to go back to academia. She's a former Stanford provost but officials here say that unless something changes at this point, the president is likely to tap her to fill Secretary Powell's role and this is in keeping with what seems to be a pattern from this White House which is to take loyalists and confidantes from inside the White House and put them around the administration.

Bush officials say this is because the president feels that he is confident in his people, confident in his policies. Others outside the White House, even some Republicans like Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska says that there's a question there whether or not there's too much of an echo chamber and will be too much of an echo chamber in the second Bush term if all of these Bush loyalists are then sent out to the cabinet posts -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Dana Bash reporting from the White House. Thank you.

Second-term presidents routinely reshuffle their cabinets after winning reelection. In the three months after Richard Nixon's 1972 reelection, five cabinet members resigned. A sixth was reassigned to a different cabinet post. In the three months after Ronald Reagan was reelected four cabinet members resigned, one of them however was named White House chief of staff. And Bill Clinton after he was reelected five cabinet members stepped down, a sixth was reassigned to a different post. There's also been an extraordinary shake-up going on right now over at the Central Intelligence Agency and it may have major implications for the global war on terror. Top cloak and dagger veterans are moving out as new management moves in. For details, let's turn to our national security correspondent, David Ensor -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, after angry exchange with aides to the new director of central intelligence Porter Goss the top two men in the CIA's clandestine service resigned today. They are deputy director for operations Stephen Kappes and his number two man, Michael J. Sulick. Kappes is said to be the man who convinced Libya's leader Moammar Gaddafi to give up his weapons of mass destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: If these individuals didn't feel comfortable with the direction that Porter is going they did the right thing and they left the agency.

ENSOR (voice-over): Intelligence insiders say the Bush White House has ordered Goss to purge the agency of officials who may have been behind leaks of damaging information during the presidential campaign about Iraq policy and the war on terrorism. But Kappes and Sulick are not accused of leaking and are highly respected.

REP. JANE HARMAN (D), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: The direction set by this highly partisan, inexperienced management team which Porter Goss brought over with him to the CIA may cause the wrong people to resign in protest and may hurt our efforts to win the war on terror.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Amidst the turmoil a CIA internal critic, author Michael Scheuer, former head of the bin Laden unit at the CIA resigned last week and is now going public with his critique of the Bush administration and the CIA leadership which he says has not been aggressive against al Qaeda.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL SCHEUER, FMR. CIA ANALYST: What is important to me is to get the idea across to the American people that their leaders are not, at least in the case of Osama bin Laden, they do not have a record of putting the protection of American citizens first. There's too many considerations that come before that.

ENSOR: You write in your book, this war has the potential to last beyond our children's lifetimes and to be fought mostly on U.S. soil.

SCHEUER: Yes, sir.

ENSOR: Really? SCHEUER: I think that is correct. We don't have a choice between peace and war. This is a choice between war and endless war. What we need to do is combine the work of the intelligence service, certainly more aggressive military activities and some consideration of changing policies. The best we can hope for in the near-term is to cut down the potential for bin Laden to grow in the Muslim world in the sense of his support. Support for him is clearly rising at the moment.

ENSOR: What do you expect next from al Qaeda?

SCHEUER: I think al Qaeda is just waiting to attack us again at a time of its choosing with a weapon of some kind, but surely trying to cause casualties and economic damage larger than the 9/11 attacks. I don't think bin Laden has felt it to be incumbent on him to attack us. The world has been going his way almost entirely since 9/11.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Michael Scheuer, until recently known as Anonymous, the author of "Imperial Hubris". He says he thinks the war with Islamist terrorists has only just begun and he expects another major attack here at some point. He thinks it could be bigger than 9/11 -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's hope he's wrong. David Ensor, thank you very much for that report.

To our viewers, here's your chance to weigh in on our top story. Our web question of the day is this, are you surprised that Colin Powell is resigning? You can vote. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results a little bit later in this broadcast.

In Iraq, fighting in what was the insurgent stronghold of Falluja appears to be winding down, but as CNN's Karl Penhaul reports, insurgents are carrying out attacks in several other cities.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Flames engulf Iraqi police trucks as insurgent gunmen go on the prowl, blasting away at routed Iraqi security forces. Rebels attacked here in Barut (ph) a 40,000, just 25 miles north of Baghdad as U.S. commanders declared that they liberated a much larger city of Falluja 40 miles away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We're telling Bush and Blair and their lackeys in Iraq, that we're coming to claim victory and raise our banner in the name of God.

PENHAUL: Witnesses said several hundred fighters from the pro- Saddam 1920s Brigade, the fundamentalist Islamic National Resistance Army and the Al-Zarqawi network were heading the fight. Impossible to tell if whether any of these had fled Falluja before the Marine offensive. Some civilians in Barut clearly approved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): God willing America will be defeated and God will claim victory to the Mujahedeen. PENHAUL: A statement from U.S. military headquarters in Baghdad said only a police station in the town had come under fire. A few miles away in Baqubah insurgents sniped at U.S. forces from a mosque and clashes erupted across the city. The U.S. military said four U.S. Soldiers were wounded and U.S. jets bombed rebel positions.

Further north in Mosul, unrest continued. Iraqi government ministers said insurgents still controlled three or four police stations Monday, though U.S. forces described the situation as stable. In attacks over the last four days, gunmen looted weapons and flack jackets as some Iraqi police, believed to be insurgent sympathizers, gave up without a fight.

FALAH AL MAKIE, INTERIOR MINISTER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) actually many areas but very limited. It's very limited, actually, but that's what happens. In certain areas, we had to counsel and to fire many of these which we think that they are somehow cooperating with insurgents.

PENHAUL: U.S. officials have said they don't believe insurgents elsewhere in Iraq can sustain their backlash against the Falluja offensive, but insurgent commanders Barut seem unavowed.

Proclaiming solidarity for their comrades in Falluja, vowing to fight to the death.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Middle East peace efforts in the wake of Yasser Arafat's Death. What kind of relationship will Israel have with the new Palestinian leadership?

The Israeli foreign minister Sylvan Shalom, he's in Washington, just met with Colin Powell. He'll meet with us. That's coming up live next. Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Felt like Babe Ruth took a swing at my forehead. It took me totally by surprise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Injured on the front lines in Falluja, now wounded Marines telling their war stories. We'll have them.

And later...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If your daughter decided to prance around on the stage in your underwear, singing and hollering -- would you approve?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Madonna on motherhood and more. Our Richard Quest asked her some tough questions. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. The Secretary of State Colin Powell will depart from the Middle East this month, but will his upcoming departure from office set back hopes for renewed peace efforts in the Middle East.

Joining us now the foreign minister of Israel and the Deputy Prime Minister Sylvan Shalom. Mr. Minister, welcome to Washington. Thanks very much for joining us.

SYLVAN SHALOM, FOREIGN MINISTER, ISRAEL: Thank you for having me.

BLITZER: You just met with Colin Powell, you just came here from the State Department, did you get the impression from him that there was an opportunity now for some revived peace talks after Yasser Arafat's death?

SHALOM: I really -- we have a glimmer of hope. We have now a totally new situation, where Arafat is not there (UNINTELLIGIBLE), that the new, moderate and responsible leadership will emerge. And of course, first they have to get elected. We will do everything we can in order to enable them to have a free and fair election in the Middle East. And Secretary Powell himself will come next week to our region. I think that he believes too, that there is a new chance now to revive the peace process in the Middle East.

BLITZER: The Palestinians announced they'll hold their elections on January 9th, which is only -- less than 60 days away. But the fact that he's leaving, Powell, and someone else, maybe Condoleezza Rice is coming in.

How much of a problem, if any, does that pose for reviving the peace process?

SHALOM: I think the administration is committed to bringing peace to the region, like he's committing to putting an end to terrorism in our region. And, we think it's a big loss that we don't have Colin Powell with us. It's a big loss for Israel, it's a big loss for the peace. But who's going to replace him I think will be committed to the idea of President Bush, to try to do everything to bring peace to our region.

BLITZER: You know Condoleezza Rice, she has not been named yet by the president, wide expectation that she'll be named the next secretary of state. What do you think of her?

SHALOM: I've know her for a very long time. She's very good for the peace process. She's very good for the security around the world, but I don't want to be a part of those speculations. We should wait and see to find out who is going to be the new secretary of state of the United States of America.

BLITZER: All right. Let me bring you closer to home. The new Palestinian leadership, as it's emerging it's emerging, Mahmoud Abbas, for example, Ahmed Qorei, are these men with whom your government can deal?

SHALOM: I don't want to mention names, because every name that will be mentioned by me or by other Israelis will be suspected immediately as a collaborator of Israel and of the United States. So we should enable them to have their own election, to elect their new leadership. And after it -- after they will get elected, of course, to find out if there is a way to resume negotiations with them.

We would like to see a new leadership that is determined to put an end to the conflict, that is determined to fight terrorism, is determined to fight an end -- to put an end to terrorism, to violence and incitement. And it's very easy for them to put an end to the incitement. And just like that to ask the managers of the radio, the television and the educational system to try to move to totally a new direction that will be more positive and will be more peaceful.

BLITZER: Yesterday I interviewed Saeb Erakat, the chief Palestinian negotiator. He said Israel did a very good job in allowing the Palestinians to go forward with the burial, the funeral of Yasser Arafat, but he also said that if Israel wants to help revive the peace process, Israel should take some steps as well. Listen to what he said.

SHALOM: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: If the Israeli tanks pull out from our populated centers, we can replace these tanks, Wolf, with American observers, British observers, French observers, whoever wants to come in and witness these historic moments in the making for the Palestinians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What do you think of that idea, to bring in international observers to monitor the elections and let the tanks move away so that Palestinians can go about, move about and vote?

SHALOM: We don't have any problem to have observers from overseas for their election. If they would like it, we would be in favor. We're asking to do it -- the international community was asking to do it during the election in 1996, but the Palestinians didn't like it then. If they would like to have now observers, inspectors, supervisors, more than welcome.

BLITZER: One final question. Marwan Barghouti, who is serving five consecutive life sentences for terrorism, serving in an Israeli prison right now. He's very popular among Palestinians. A lot of them would like to see him released or exchanged so he could run for office. Is there any chance that your government would release Marwan Barghouti?

SHALOM: There is no way. Marwan Barghouti was sentenced -- was sentenced to life, not just like that, because he was behind so many murderers he killed so many innocent Israelis. So he should stay there, and he should stay there for the rest of his life. He can't be any candidate to have negotiations with the state of Israel. He's a terrorist, he's a murderer, and he should remain in jail.

BLITZER: Sylvan Shalom, thanks very much for spending a few moments with us.

SHALOM: Thank you very much.

BLITZER: The fight for Falluja, can the city really be secured? We'll get the view from the ground. We'll go there.

Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sniper rounds started just above my last eyebrow. It's nothing too serious, I guess, it cracked my skull.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Battle scars. We'll hear from some of the wounded U.S. Marines involved in the fight for Falluja.

And a little bit later, stun guns on children. Are police in Florida going too far to subdue youngsters? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: As we reported, the battle for the Iraqi city of Falluja appears to be winding down. U.S. officials say 38 Americans have been killed in that battle, 275 have been wounded. Many of the wounded are being airlifted to a U.S. military hospital in Germany for treatment before returning home.

Our senior international correspondent Walter Rodgers is there with some of their stories.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Day and night, the American wounded from Falluja arrive in Germany at the Landstuhl military hospital. The numbers of incoming combat casualties have doubled in the past week, often more than 70 a day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You'll be all right, buddy.

RODGERS: They arrive with bullet wounds, burn and blast injuries, their young bodies ripped by shrapnel from rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.

Marine Lance Corporal Jeffrey Owens admitted he was scared. LANCE CORPORAL JEFFREY OWENS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: You can always hear the rocket when it comes. It makes a real distinct whistle. So I knew it was coming, I just didn't know where it was from. When I first heard the blast, I felt it go through my leg.

RODGERS: Some of the wounded from Falluja are still in the medevac pipeline en route.

Several Marines suggested the Arab fighters were hardly worthy adversaries.

LANCE CORPORAL TRAVIS SCHAEFER, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Some of them are 13, 14 years old trying to fight us, and it's -- it's sad to see some of them try to fight us.

RODGERS: Army sniper Kris Clinkscales took shrapnel in Falluja too.

SPEC. KRIS CLINKSCALES, U.S. ARMY: I saw no civilians. A lot of insurgents, though, as far as what you'd say dead bodies, casualties on their side there. There were a lot in the streets.

RODGERS: Marine Lance Corporal Ryan Chapman may have been the luckiest man about. An Arab sniper's bullet cracked his skull, but it bounced off.

LANCE CORPORAL RYAN CHAPMAN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: It felt like Babe Ruth took a swing at my forehead. It took me totally by surprise.

COL. RHONDA CORNLUM, COMMANDER, U.S. MILITARY HOSPITAL: They're strong and they're highly motivated, and you're just proud to be one of them, and you just want to do the best you can for them.

RODGERS (on camera): There are other American soldiers and Marines who arrived here this past week, many very seriously wounded. Close to 40 are still in intensive care units. We cannot show you their physical disfigurement, the trauma, nor the scars they will bear the rest of their lives.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, at the Landstuhl military hospital in Germany.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: They've driven them out, but can the troops keep the insurgents from coming back to Falluja? We'll have details.

Also this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I always indicated to him that I thought I would serve for one term.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: What should President Bush be looking for in his next cabinet? I'll ask the former defense secretary, William Cohen. He's standing by to join me live.

Then later, the many sides of Madonna. Our Richard Quest tackled some of the taboo subjects with the star.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More now on our top story, experts worrying the violence in Falluja could flair up again or they're also worried whether any victory in Falluja can actually turn out to be permanent.

Our Brian Todd has been looking into those questions. He's joining us now live -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there are several indications right now that the situation on the ground in Falluja is still in flux and could be for some time.

An audiotape purportedly from the wanted terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi encourages the insurgents to fight on against coalition forces and makes a very general reference to Falluja. CNN cannot confirm the authenticity of this tape. And intelligence officials tell us they're conducting a technical review to determine if that voice belongs to Zarqawi.

This is another example of a very complicated battle the coalition is fighting to secure a very dangerous city.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): They fought inch by inch, corner by corner, taking heavy casualties and inflicting even more. Now, even if the battle for Falluja is winding down, military intelligence experts caution, don't think this is a city that can be captured in the traditional sense.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. JAMES MARKS, U.S. ARMY: I don't think you are ever going to completely secure Falluja, nor could you ever secure Detroit or Washington, D.C., or Des Moines, Iowa.

TODD: Retired Army General James Marks, who ran prewar intelligence operations on the ground, tells us coalition forces will more likely try to establish security in sections and in degrees that may shift by the day. And the force that conducts those operations, he says, will have to include Iraqis, who may or may not be up to the job.

MARKS: You might put an Iraqi face on it, where the primary effort is being conducted by the Iraqi forces, yet the forces that execute the very tactical missions at the lowest level will be a mix of Iraqis and coalition forces.

TODD: Marks and other experts with close ties to the U.S. military tell CNN, even if hard-core insurgents like Abu Musab al- Zarqawi have left Falluja to fight another day, overall, that's a setback for the resistance.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That's when they become most vulnerable, when they're on the run, because they can't plan. They can't coordinate. They can't rehearse. And if you can constantly keep them on the run, you can whittle them down, instead of allowing them to whittle down your strategy.

TODD: The experts acknowledge, Zarqawi may eventually make his way back to Falluja. The key, they say, is to not let them stay there for long.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Another key for the coalition is to win over the local population in Falluja, a very difficult task and one that the Iraqis who are part of the coalition force have to play a crucial role in. Many commanders on the ground and elsewhere are anxious to see how they do -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd, thanks very much for that report.

Fierce firefights, snipers, house-to-house fighting. The worse may be over, but Falluja remains a very, very dangerous city.

Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even as U.S. military commanders announced that Falluja is 100 percent secure, in southern Falluja, Task Force 22 of the Army's 1st Infantry Division is mopping up the last remnants, tanks still one week later firing into suspected insurgent hideouts. Machine guns continue to rake Falluja's rooftops.

This is Falluja after the invasion, troops still clearing explosives, booby traps, kicking in doors, shooting into buildings where the final insurgents still might be, fighting to the death. The commanders say this has been a battle where you get street-wise fast or you become a casualty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was an individual fight, man to man, spider holes where guys would pop out of. After a Marine would go by it or a soldier would go by it, they'd pop out and attempt to shoot the Marine in the legs or in the back.

STARR: The Marines and Army may number control of Falluja, technically, but they know this fight is not over, that they will be on the streets of this city for some time to come.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: So will the Iraqis ever be up to the job of securing their own cities? Will the insurgents just filter back into Falluja? Joining us now, our world affairs analyst and former Defense Secretary William Cohen.

Let's take the first question first. Will the Iraqis be up to the job any time soon to secure these cities?

WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hard to tell, but I doubt whether they can get the job any time soon. It is going to take some time.

We saw what took place in Mosul just a few days ago, where the police simply abandoned their facilities under the threat of the insurgents. And so it is going to take some time. I'm told that the Iraqis who are fighting are doing a good job. But securing that city is going to take more of them. And to sustain that is going to take a good deal longer than we think.

BLITZER: As you know, and you're a student of this, classic insurgencies, the insurgents sort of just melt away. They go away, but to come back when the opportunity is right. Do you have any -- should anyone have any illusions about these insurgents, that they're gone away for good?

COHEN: No, no illusions about that.

In addition to the insurgents coming back, we have to be concerned about more coming over the border from Syria and Iran. And, unless you can secure those borders, there can be the call to the jihad for more and more to come in, and so you're fighting an ever- diminishing problem, that you keep killing those insurgents, but more keep coming.

And Secretary Rumsfeld raised this issue last year, whether or not we were killing more insurgents than we were creating insurgents. And that's an issue that has yet to be involved.

BLITZER: So, do you assess that the elections in Iraq scheduled for the end of January can in fact go forward?

COHEN: Again, they're scheduled to go forward. A lot will depend upon what happens not only in Falluja in terms of securing that for the foreseeable future, but also what's taking place in Ramadi, in Mosul and elsewhere.

It's been suggested that we can go ahead without Sunni participation, but that can lead ultimately to a civil war and we're just postponing that inevitability. So, I think it is a very dangerous time. We're going to need more people on the ground, more Iraqis, hopefully, but we need greater international support as well in order to make this transition a reality.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the Cabinet reshuffle here in Washington.

You were a Republican senator for Maine for many, many years, before that, in the House. The second term of the Clinton administration, President Clinton brought you in to be secretary of defense, a Republican in a Democratic administration. What do you make of Colin Powell's decision to resign right now?

COHEN: Well, first, I'm surprised that we're so surprised. It's been rumored for nearly a year now that Secretary Powell was going to leave. And I think he sent all the signals indicating he was going to leave.

There's an expression. I think Churchill said this, that when eagles are silent, parrots begin to talk here. So we're parroting a lot what's taking place. And, ultimately, I think he's tired. He's been struggling to push this rock up a hill. And he's been doing so with one hand tied behind him because he hasn't had the full support within the administration.

So I think that he's made significant accomplishments, but, regrettably, he has not had that kind of support that would make it even more successful. So I think he's tired. I think he's satisfied he has really reinvigorated the morale in the State Department, that he feels good about that and talks about it frequently. And so he has many accomplishments. But I think there's a sense that he could have accomplished so much more, had there not been that kind of division within the administration that put him, as you've said before, odd man out.

BLITZER: The career diplomats, the foreign service officers in the State Department love him because he was a hard worker and a champion for what they were trying to do. Would Condoleezza Rice, do you think, step up to that mission?

COHEN: Well, I think she can and would if the president were to ask her. There's been, again, some speculation, that she may want to go back into the private world, to the university world of Stanford.

But if the president of the United States asked her to serve, I'm sure that she would take that into account. And she would add certainly continuity. She's been part of the national security team. So there's no learning curve on her part. She's a very capable individual. And I'm sure that she would carry it out with great admiration and capability for him.

BLITZER: William Cohen, thanks very much.

COHEN: Pleasure.

BLITZER: Anybody ask you to join the Cabinet yet?

(LAUGHTER)

COHEN: No. And I don't expect it.

BLITZER: Just wait. Maybe. You never know.

Furor in Florida after police use Taser gun -- yes, Taser guns -- on children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SILVANA GOMEZ, TASERED BY POLICE: And I was scared sometimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What are police saying? We'll go live to Miami.

Also, this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If you could effect one change, just one, what would it be?

MADONNA, MUSICIAN: To get George Bush to study cabala.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I don't think George Bush is going to be studying cabala any time soon. Maybe Madonna would like to see him do that. She talks about politics and religion with our Richard Quest.

Plus, Kobe Bryant booed at the American Music Awards. We'll share that moment with you.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

In South Florida, Miami-Dade police are coming under fire for using Taser guns on children twice in just a matter of weeks. The circumstances in each case were very different.

Our national correspondent Susan Candiotti, is in Miami. She's joining us now live with details -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Wolf.

Yes, police say Tasers prevent injuries to suspects themselves and possibly others, but here in South Florida, when Tasers were used on two children in the last month, one a first-grader, the other a 12- year-old truant, well, it's created a stir.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Tasering a 12-year-old girl playing hooky isn't sitting well with the director of the Miami Dade Police Department.

SGT. PETER ANDREU, MIAMI DADE POLICE DEPARTMENT: He felt that it wasn't the most appropriate use of the Taser, but that's -- it needs to follow its course of review by the command staff.

CANDIOTTI: Police say the girl was zapped while running away from an officer.

GOMEZ: They did mess up. They did mess up. Obviously, they did because I'm underage and I haven't done nothing wrong. All did I was skip school.

CANDIOTTI: Skipping school might not be enough to Taser a child, say police, one of the things they're reviewing. The same agency defends Tasering a 6-year-old at school. Police say the bloody first grader was holding a security guard at bay with a shard of glass and wouldn't drop it. Community activists wonder whether there was another way.

GEORGIA AYERS, COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: I certainly don't want anyone putting a Taser ON my child or any other child that I know of.

CANDIOTTI: The school's principal says some parents have complained about the Taser, but no group meetings are planned.

Yet, in rural Putnam County, Florida, after middle and high schoolers were Tasered five times this year for alleged violent behavior, police are teaching students about the high-voltage weapons.

DET. TIM CAMPBELL, PUTNAM COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: No side effects, no harmful aftermath. You don't have to deal with the pepper spray, the baton beatings and stuff like that.

CANDIOTTI: Taser International says its safety tests are done on pigs. Its findings, Tasers can be used safely on anyone weighing more than 60 pounds. According to his family, the first grader in question weighs 53 pounds and vomited after being jolted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: In a statement to CNN, Taser International says it does not issue warnings based on age or population groups, based on its own safety findings. And, furthermore, the company says it's up to each individual police agency to set its own policy in that regard.

By the way, Wolf, Miami Dade Police Department's only restriction on using Tasers is pregnant woman. Police say they could hurt themselves falling.

BLITZER: Susan Candiotti, thanks very much for that report. We are going to take a quick break.

When we come back, we'll go to the Pentagon. There's a developing story we're following. Our Jamie McIntyre is standing by, an investigation under way into whether a United States Marine executed, executed an Iraqi.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There's a developing story we're following.

For details, let's go immediately to our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, a U.S. Marine is under investigation for shooting an insurgent prisoner at point black last Saturday.

The incident was captured on videotape by a U.S. television pool reporter who was traveling along with one of the Marine units in Falluja. The killing came a day after U.S. Marines stormed a Falluja mosque after taking fire from insurgents inside. The Marines killed 10 insurgents, wounded five others, who were given some medical treatment and then left to be picked up later.

Now, the next day -- that's last Saturday -- a different Marine unit went back into the mosque in response to the reports that the insurgent had returned. That's who we're seeing here. And you can hear gunfire inside the mosque as the original Marine unit where the TV -- embedded TV reporters with them arrives at the mosque and they begin to go inside.

At that point, one of the previous day's wounded, from the day before, three of them were lying inside dying and one severely wounded man is shot in the head by a U.S. Marine at point-blank range. We're not going to show you the actual shooting, because it is too explicit.

This is the point where the second Marine unit is coming in. They're discovering some of the wounded from the day before are in much worse shape. After the shooting takes place, the Marine is asked by a television -- told by the television reporter that these are the same wounded people.

This is the point where the shooting takes. And, again, we're not showing you that picture because it is too explicit. Afterwards, the TV reporter who's embedded with them comes up. The Marines says, you know, those were the same wounded people who were here the day before. The Marine says he doesn't know. He didn't know that. He's now under investigation to see whether he violated the rules of engagement, which would prohibit him from killing prisoner who was not a threat.

Now, it's possible that, in the fog of war, he didn't understand that these prisoners had been there before. And this was also a time, by the way, Wolf, when fellow Marines were dying all around him, including some from a booby-trapped body. But, again, that will be up for investigators to decide.

Meanwhile, the U.S. military is concerned that this kind of image could be very damaging because they're fighting insurgents who are fighting to the death, and they don't want to do anything to give them the idea that, if they turn themselves in, they'll be shot, which is clearly against U.S. military policy -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And, Jamie, I notice, quickly, that we distorted or pixelated some of the images there not to show faces. Is that right?

MCINTYRE: That's correct. That's because the implication here is that there might have been some wrongdoing. We don't know that that's the case. And until we do, we don't want to wrongly implicate anybody, in case an investigation clears them of what happened in this incident.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at Pentagon, a very sensitive subject, indeed.

William Cohen, the former defense secretary, still here with us.

What do you think? This sounds like potentially pretty serious line of work.

COHEN: Well, it is.

And I think, as Jamie has indicated, premature to start speculating about this, under investigation. As you have been showing all along, urban combat is probably the toughest and the worst kind of combat you can engage in, not knowing whether or not an individual who might be wounded might have a grenade, might somehow attack you, even though he's wounded.

You have to get all of the facts before you make a decision as to whether or not the man was -- quote -- "executed" under the circumstance. But, unless he posed a threat, then the rules of engagement would prohibit shooting him. So we'll have to wait and see. But it's a serious allegation. And I'm sure it will be investigated properly.

BLITZER: And the normal course of action now is to take a look. The investigators, the Marine investigators, Navy investigators, they come back and they go through the whole process.

Did this Marine know, this individual, this Iraqi -- and we'll show the tape again -- this Iraqi was wounded. Was he any danger? Was he any threat. And if they determine that he was no threat, that presumably he could be charged with murder.

I want our viewers to listen to this, as these Marine go into this mosque. Let's just listen and see what we can determine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) ... got shot up by tanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) come in here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tanks did?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... people in here and tell us to come in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They only had two in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you shoot them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did they have any weapons on them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same guys from yesterday? Same...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the ones from yesterday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the wounded that they never picked up.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) ... faking he's dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he's breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's faking (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We -- obviously, we're not going to show the killing of that Iraqi that they believe, they suspect, was wounded lying there, as we saw.

You heard some of the comments from these Marines. What did you think?

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: Well, the comment was, was he -- did he have a weapon? If he had a weapon, that made a difference as to -- even though he was wounded, he could have posed a threat to them. So, again, premature to judge it. We haven't seen the entire film. And I think it needs to await the investigation.

BLITZER: And we distorted not only the faces, but some of the names that were on backpacks to make sure that we didn't do anything improper.

Secretary Cohen, we'll watch this story, disturbing video, indeed. We'll see what the military -- we'll see what the military does with this investigation. BLITZER: We'll take a quick break. More when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our Web question of the day. Take a look at the results, remembering, though, this is not -- not -- a scientific poll.

Religion and politics are often perceived as taboo in polite conversation, but not when the conversation involves Madonna and CNN's Richard Quest.

He interviewed her about her new children's book, although the conversation strayed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: ... effect one change, just one, what would it be?

MADONNA: To get George Bush to study cabala. Yes. It would be amazing.

QUEST: And maybe Tony Blair could join him?

MADONNA: That's a very good idea.

QUEST: A final thought. If your daughter decided to prance around the stage in her underwear, singing and hollering, would you approve?

MADONNA: If she was an adult, there's, you know, not a lot I could do about it. She would be free to make that choice.

QUEST: Would you approve? If she behaved like you, if she mirrored your life to some extent, as a mother, who's now essentially found a spiritual way of life, would you approve?

MADONNA: Probably not.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Madonna suggesting that President Bush start studying cabala, Jewish mysticism. I don't think that's going to happen, but you never know.

Let's move on. Kobe Bryant, he got booed last night. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BOOING)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

KOBE BRYANT, NBA PLAYER: The three superstars up for favorite soul rhythm and blues albums are truly gifted artists. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Actually, it was a mixed reaction over at the American Music Awards last night, where he was a presenter. He drew both cheers and jeers from the audience, though it's unclear whether it was tied to the rape case in Colorado or his strained relations with the former Laker -- his Laker colleagues, Shaquille O'Neal and Phil Jackson -- Phil Jackson's book, by the way, a "New York Times" best- seller, on the best-sellers list right now.

And a domino record, it's our picture of the day. It took Dutch organizers a year to plan this amazing sight. Look at this. A team of 80 people spent two months setting it up. It took half-an-hour for the four million tiles to fall, half an hour, topping the old world record by more than 100,000 dominoes. Look at this. Very cool, indeed.

We're on twice a day, noon and 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired November 15, 2004 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now, hunted terrorist. Did the leader of the Iraqi insurgents speak out today?
And will she become the first African-American woman to serve as United States secretary of state? The latest on Condoleezza Rice's future.

Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Powell resigns. The secretary of state leads an exodus from the Bush cabinet.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We were in mutual agreement that it was the appropriate time for me to move on.

BLITZER: Will his departure dash hopes for quick diplomacy in the Middle East? I'll ask Israeli foreign minister Silvan Shalom.

CIA shake-up. As top officers step down, an ex-spy comes in from the cold.

War wounded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can always hear the rocket when it comes. It makes a really distinct whistle.

BLITZER: Paying a price for victory in Falluja.

Stun gun shocker. Why would cops fire 50,000 volts into kids?

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, November 15, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: There were clear disputes with administration hawks over the years, but Colin Powell soldiered on. Now as President Bush gets ready for a second term the secretary of state says he's getting ready to leave. Let's go live to our State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel -- Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, no surprise. For some time now Secretary Powell had signaled that if President Bush won a second term he might not be a part of it but then since the election Powell aides had told me that depending upon who else was in the president's cabinet, Powell might be experiencing a little bit of a change of heart.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): With the passing of Yasser Arafat and elections in Iraq just weeks away, administration officials say Secretary Powell would have liked to stick around a little longer, but the president didn't ask.

POWELL: We had pretty much come to our mutual agreement without anybody having to make any offer, counteroffers, anything like that. We knew where we were heading.

KOPPEL: From the outset it seemed Powell was often out of sync with the president and his rivals in the Bush cabinet. Within weeks of the inauguration in 2001 Powell declared the Bush administration would resume direct talks with North Korea, picking up where the Clinton administration had left off, but the White House disagreed and Powell was forced to backtrack.

POWELL: I got a little too far forward on my skis.

KOPPEL: Always the loyal soldier, Powell worked to put the best face on policies with which he often disagreed.

POWELL: Saddam Hussein and his regime...

KOPPEL: His now infamous presentation to the United Nations in February 2003 on Iraq's alleged program of weapons of mass destruction was later discredited, one of the lowest points of his tenure and while he did persuade President Bush to work through the U.N. to get inspectors back in he failed to convince Mr. Bush to stay the diplomatic course.

JAMES RUBIN, FMR. ASST. SECRETARY OF STATE: Clearly, Colin Powell was the only voice in the Bush administration who recognized a need to go slowly and carefully when it came to invading Iraq.

KOPPEL: At the State Department Powell is credited with boosting morale and enrollment in the foreign service as well as securing more money for the department from Capitol Hill. Overseas, Powell was warmly welcomed by allies who believed he was the lone voice of moderation, but when asked whether his departure would slow down a new opportunity to jumpstart Middle East peace, Powell was ever the diplomat.

POWELL: It is the president's policies that are being pursued and implemented not Colin Powell's.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: Now Powell says he intends to work ahead on those policies in his remaining weeks, perhaps a couple of months until his successor is named and then approved by the new Congress. As for Mr. Powell's future, Wolf, he said he doesn't know what he is going to do next.

BLITZER: Andrea Koppel at the State Department. Thank you, Andrea.

The cabinet shuffle is picking up steam here in Washington. Word came today three more secretaries will be leaving after one term.

Let's go live to our White House correspondent, Dana Bash.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, you're right, Wolf. The White House, the president is moving quite quickly now to decide who he wants to stay and who he doesn't want to stay in his second term. There were really four done in one fell swoop. You see them on the screen now. Of course as Andrea was reporting, Secretary of State Colin Powell was the first of the president's national security team to bow out of a second term, but also the Education Secretary Rod Paige who came here with Mr. Bush from Texas said he was going to resign. The Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham, somebody who lost his bid for reelection for Senate from Michigan four years ago and then was tapped to come to the administration. He's going to go back to private life and the Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman.

There are now, Wolf, six openings, six openings out of the 15 cabinet positions of the Bush White House. Only one successor has been named and that of course is Alberto Gonzales, the White House chief counsel. He has been appointed, at least named, has to be confirmed still to be attorney general.

There is word from senior officials here at the White House that in all likelihood Secretary of State Powell's vacancy will be filled they hope here at the White House by his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. She, of course, is one of the president's most trusted advisers. She had talked to associates about perhaps wanting to go back to academia. She's a former Stanford provost but officials here say that unless something changes at this point, the president is likely to tap her to fill Secretary Powell's role and this is in keeping with what seems to be a pattern from this White House which is to take loyalists and confidantes from inside the White House and put them around the administration.

Bush officials say this is because the president feels that he is confident in his people, confident in his policies. Others outside the White House, even some Republicans like Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska says that there's a question there whether or not there's too much of an echo chamber and will be too much of an echo chamber in the second Bush term if all of these Bush loyalists are then sent out to the cabinet posts -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Dana Bash reporting from the White House. Thank you.

Second-term presidents routinely reshuffle their cabinets after winning reelection. In the three months after Richard Nixon's 1972 reelection, five cabinet members resigned. A sixth was reassigned to a different cabinet post. In the three months after Ronald Reagan was reelected four cabinet members resigned, one of them however was named White House chief of staff. And Bill Clinton after he was reelected five cabinet members stepped down, a sixth was reassigned to a different post. There's also been an extraordinary shake-up going on right now over at the Central Intelligence Agency and it may have major implications for the global war on terror. Top cloak and dagger veterans are moving out as new management moves in. For details, let's turn to our national security correspondent, David Ensor -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, after angry exchange with aides to the new director of central intelligence Porter Goss the top two men in the CIA's clandestine service resigned today. They are deputy director for operations Stephen Kappes and his number two man, Michael J. Sulick. Kappes is said to be the man who convinced Libya's leader Moammar Gaddafi to give up his weapons of mass destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. PETER HOEKSTRA (R), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: If these individuals didn't feel comfortable with the direction that Porter is going they did the right thing and they left the agency.

ENSOR (voice-over): Intelligence insiders say the Bush White House has ordered Goss to purge the agency of officials who may have been behind leaks of damaging information during the presidential campaign about Iraq policy and the war on terrorism. But Kappes and Sulick are not accused of leaking and are highly respected.

REP. JANE HARMAN (D), INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: The direction set by this highly partisan, inexperienced management team which Porter Goss brought over with him to the CIA may cause the wrong people to resign in protest and may hurt our efforts to win the war on terror.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Amidst the turmoil a CIA internal critic, author Michael Scheuer, former head of the bin Laden unit at the CIA resigned last week and is now going public with his critique of the Bush administration and the CIA leadership which he says has not been aggressive against al Qaeda.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL SCHEUER, FMR. CIA ANALYST: What is important to me is to get the idea across to the American people that their leaders are not, at least in the case of Osama bin Laden, they do not have a record of putting the protection of American citizens first. There's too many considerations that come before that.

ENSOR: You write in your book, this war has the potential to last beyond our children's lifetimes and to be fought mostly on U.S. soil.

SCHEUER: Yes, sir.

ENSOR: Really? SCHEUER: I think that is correct. We don't have a choice between peace and war. This is a choice between war and endless war. What we need to do is combine the work of the intelligence service, certainly more aggressive military activities and some consideration of changing policies. The best we can hope for in the near-term is to cut down the potential for bin Laden to grow in the Muslim world in the sense of his support. Support for him is clearly rising at the moment.

ENSOR: What do you expect next from al Qaeda?

SCHEUER: I think al Qaeda is just waiting to attack us again at a time of its choosing with a weapon of some kind, but surely trying to cause casualties and economic damage larger than the 9/11 attacks. I don't think bin Laden has felt it to be incumbent on him to attack us. The world has been going his way almost entirely since 9/11.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Michael Scheuer, until recently known as Anonymous, the author of "Imperial Hubris". He says he thinks the war with Islamist terrorists has only just begun and he expects another major attack here at some point. He thinks it could be bigger than 9/11 -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's hope he's wrong. David Ensor, thank you very much for that report.

To our viewers, here's your chance to weigh in on our top story. Our web question of the day is this, are you surprised that Colin Powell is resigning? You can vote. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results a little bit later in this broadcast.

In Iraq, fighting in what was the insurgent stronghold of Falluja appears to be winding down, but as CNN's Karl Penhaul reports, insurgents are carrying out attacks in several other cities.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Flames engulf Iraqi police trucks as insurgent gunmen go on the prowl, blasting away at routed Iraqi security forces. Rebels attacked here in Barut (ph) a 40,000, just 25 miles north of Baghdad as U.S. commanders declared that they liberated a much larger city of Falluja 40 miles away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We're telling Bush and Blair and their lackeys in Iraq, that we're coming to claim victory and raise our banner in the name of God.

PENHAUL: Witnesses said several hundred fighters from the pro- Saddam 1920s Brigade, the fundamentalist Islamic National Resistance Army and the Al-Zarqawi network were heading the fight. Impossible to tell if whether any of these had fled Falluja before the Marine offensive. Some civilians in Barut clearly approved.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): God willing America will be defeated and God will claim victory to the Mujahedeen. PENHAUL: A statement from U.S. military headquarters in Baghdad said only a police station in the town had come under fire. A few miles away in Baqubah insurgents sniped at U.S. forces from a mosque and clashes erupted across the city. The U.S. military said four U.S. Soldiers were wounded and U.S. jets bombed rebel positions.

Further north in Mosul, unrest continued. Iraqi government ministers said insurgents still controlled three or four police stations Monday, though U.S. forces described the situation as stable. In attacks over the last four days, gunmen looted weapons and flack jackets as some Iraqi police, believed to be insurgent sympathizers, gave up without a fight.

FALAH AL MAKIE, INTERIOR MINISTER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) actually many areas but very limited. It's very limited, actually, but that's what happens. In certain areas, we had to counsel and to fire many of these which we think that they are somehow cooperating with insurgents.

PENHAUL: U.S. officials have said they don't believe insurgents elsewhere in Iraq can sustain their backlash against the Falluja offensive, but insurgent commanders Barut seem unavowed.

Proclaiming solidarity for their comrades in Falluja, vowing to fight to the death.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Middle East peace efforts in the wake of Yasser Arafat's Death. What kind of relationship will Israel have with the new Palestinian leadership?

The Israeli foreign minister Sylvan Shalom, he's in Washington, just met with Colin Powell. He'll meet with us. That's coming up live next. Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Felt like Babe Ruth took a swing at my forehead. It took me totally by surprise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Injured on the front lines in Falluja, now wounded Marines telling their war stories. We'll have them.

And later...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If your daughter decided to prance around on the stage in your underwear, singing and hollering -- would you approve?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Madonna on motherhood and more. Our Richard Quest asked her some tough questions. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. The Secretary of State Colin Powell will depart from the Middle East this month, but will his upcoming departure from office set back hopes for renewed peace efforts in the Middle East.

Joining us now the foreign minister of Israel and the Deputy Prime Minister Sylvan Shalom. Mr. Minister, welcome to Washington. Thanks very much for joining us.

SYLVAN SHALOM, FOREIGN MINISTER, ISRAEL: Thank you for having me.

BLITZER: You just met with Colin Powell, you just came here from the State Department, did you get the impression from him that there was an opportunity now for some revived peace talks after Yasser Arafat's death?

SHALOM: I really -- we have a glimmer of hope. We have now a totally new situation, where Arafat is not there (UNINTELLIGIBLE), that the new, moderate and responsible leadership will emerge. And of course, first they have to get elected. We will do everything we can in order to enable them to have a free and fair election in the Middle East. And Secretary Powell himself will come next week to our region. I think that he believes too, that there is a new chance now to revive the peace process in the Middle East.

BLITZER: The Palestinians announced they'll hold their elections on January 9th, which is only -- less than 60 days away. But the fact that he's leaving, Powell, and someone else, maybe Condoleezza Rice is coming in.

How much of a problem, if any, does that pose for reviving the peace process?

SHALOM: I think the administration is committed to bringing peace to the region, like he's committing to putting an end to terrorism in our region. And, we think it's a big loss that we don't have Colin Powell with us. It's a big loss for Israel, it's a big loss for the peace. But who's going to replace him I think will be committed to the idea of President Bush, to try to do everything to bring peace to our region.

BLITZER: You know Condoleezza Rice, she has not been named yet by the president, wide expectation that she'll be named the next secretary of state. What do you think of her?

SHALOM: I've know her for a very long time. She's very good for the peace process. She's very good for the security around the world, but I don't want to be a part of those speculations. We should wait and see to find out who is going to be the new secretary of state of the United States of America.

BLITZER: All right. Let me bring you closer to home. The new Palestinian leadership, as it's emerging it's emerging, Mahmoud Abbas, for example, Ahmed Qorei, are these men with whom your government can deal?

SHALOM: I don't want to mention names, because every name that will be mentioned by me or by other Israelis will be suspected immediately as a collaborator of Israel and of the United States. So we should enable them to have their own election, to elect their new leadership. And after it -- after they will get elected, of course, to find out if there is a way to resume negotiations with them.

We would like to see a new leadership that is determined to put an end to the conflict, that is determined to fight terrorism, is determined to fight an end -- to put an end to terrorism, to violence and incitement. And it's very easy for them to put an end to the incitement. And just like that to ask the managers of the radio, the television and the educational system to try to move to totally a new direction that will be more positive and will be more peaceful.

BLITZER: Yesterday I interviewed Saeb Erakat, the chief Palestinian negotiator. He said Israel did a very good job in allowing the Palestinians to go forward with the burial, the funeral of Yasser Arafat, but he also said that if Israel wants to help revive the peace process, Israel should take some steps as well. Listen to what he said.

SHALOM: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAEB ERAKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: If the Israeli tanks pull out from our populated centers, we can replace these tanks, Wolf, with American observers, British observers, French observers, whoever wants to come in and witness these historic moments in the making for the Palestinians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What do you think of that idea, to bring in international observers to monitor the elections and let the tanks move away so that Palestinians can go about, move about and vote?

SHALOM: We don't have any problem to have observers from overseas for their election. If they would like it, we would be in favor. We're asking to do it -- the international community was asking to do it during the election in 1996, but the Palestinians didn't like it then. If they would like to have now observers, inspectors, supervisors, more than welcome.

BLITZER: One final question. Marwan Barghouti, who is serving five consecutive life sentences for terrorism, serving in an Israeli prison right now. He's very popular among Palestinians. A lot of them would like to see him released or exchanged so he could run for office. Is there any chance that your government would release Marwan Barghouti?

SHALOM: There is no way. Marwan Barghouti was sentenced -- was sentenced to life, not just like that, because he was behind so many murderers he killed so many innocent Israelis. So he should stay there, and he should stay there for the rest of his life. He can't be any candidate to have negotiations with the state of Israel. He's a terrorist, he's a murderer, and he should remain in jail.

BLITZER: Sylvan Shalom, thanks very much for spending a few moments with us.

SHALOM: Thank you very much.

BLITZER: The fight for Falluja, can the city really be secured? We'll get the view from the ground. We'll go there.

Plus this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sniper rounds started just above my last eyebrow. It's nothing too serious, I guess, it cracked my skull.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Battle scars. We'll hear from some of the wounded U.S. Marines involved in the fight for Falluja.

And a little bit later, stun guns on children. Are police in Florida going too far to subdue youngsters? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: As we reported, the battle for the Iraqi city of Falluja appears to be winding down. U.S. officials say 38 Americans have been killed in that battle, 275 have been wounded. Many of the wounded are being airlifted to a U.S. military hospital in Germany for treatment before returning home.

Our senior international correspondent Walter Rodgers is there with some of their stories.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Day and night, the American wounded from Falluja arrive in Germany at the Landstuhl military hospital. The numbers of incoming combat casualties have doubled in the past week, often more than 70 a day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You'll be all right, buddy.

RODGERS: They arrive with bullet wounds, burn and blast injuries, their young bodies ripped by shrapnel from rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.

Marine Lance Corporal Jeffrey Owens admitted he was scared. LANCE CORPORAL JEFFREY OWENS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: You can always hear the rocket when it comes. It makes a real distinct whistle. So I knew it was coming, I just didn't know where it was from. When I first heard the blast, I felt it go through my leg.

RODGERS: Some of the wounded from Falluja are still in the medevac pipeline en route.

Several Marines suggested the Arab fighters were hardly worthy adversaries.

LANCE CORPORAL TRAVIS SCHAEFER, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Some of them are 13, 14 years old trying to fight us, and it's -- it's sad to see some of them try to fight us.

RODGERS: Army sniper Kris Clinkscales took shrapnel in Falluja too.

SPEC. KRIS CLINKSCALES, U.S. ARMY: I saw no civilians. A lot of insurgents, though, as far as what you'd say dead bodies, casualties on their side there. There were a lot in the streets.

RODGERS: Marine Lance Corporal Ryan Chapman may have been the luckiest man about. An Arab sniper's bullet cracked his skull, but it bounced off.

LANCE CORPORAL RYAN CHAPMAN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: It felt like Babe Ruth took a swing at my forehead. It took me totally by surprise.

COL. RHONDA CORNLUM, COMMANDER, U.S. MILITARY HOSPITAL: They're strong and they're highly motivated, and you're just proud to be one of them, and you just want to do the best you can for them.

RODGERS (on camera): There are other American soldiers and Marines who arrived here this past week, many very seriously wounded. Close to 40 are still in intensive care units. We cannot show you their physical disfigurement, the trauma, nor the scars they will bear the rest of their lives.

Walter Rodgers, CNN, at the Landstuhl military hospital in Germany.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: They've driven them out, but can the troops keep the insurgents from coming back to Falluja? We'll have details.

Also this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I always indicated to him that I thought I would serve for one term.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: What should President Bush be looking for in his next cabinet? I'll ask the former defense secretary, William Cohen. He's standing by to join me live.

Then later, the many sides of Madonna. Our Richard Quest tackled some of the taboo subjects with the star.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More now on our top story, experts worrying the violence in Falluja could flair up again or they're also worried whether any victory in Falluja can actually turn out to be permanent.

Our Brian Todd has been looking into those questions. He's joining us now live -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there are several indications right now that the situation on the ground in Falluja is still in flux and could be for some time.

An audiotape purportedly from the wanted terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi encourages the insurgents to fight on against coalition forces and makes a very general reference to Falluja. CNN cannot confirm the authenticity of this tape. And intelligence officials tell us they're conducting a technical review to determine if that voice belongs to Zarqawi.

This is another example of a very complicated battle the coalition is fighting to secure a very dangerous city.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): They fought inch by inch, corner by corner, taking heavy casualties and inflicting even more. Now, even if the battle for Falluja is winding down, military intelligence experts caution, don't think this is a city that can be captured in the traditional sense.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. JAMES MARKS, U.S. ARMY: I don't think you are ever going to completely secure Falluja, nor could you ever secure Detroit or Washington, D.C., or Des Moines, Iowa.

TODD: Retired Army General James Marks, who ran prewar intelligence operations on the ground, tells us coalition forces will more likely try to establish security in sections and in degrees that may shift by the day. And the force that conducts those operations, he says, will have to include Iraqis, who may or may not be up to the job.

MARKS: You might put an Iraqi face on it, where the primary effort is being conducted by the Iraqi forces, yet the forces that execute the very tactical missions at the lowest level will be a mix of Iraqis and coalition forces.

TODD: Marks and other experts with close ties to the U.S. military tell CNN, even if hard-core insurgents like Abu Musab al- Zarqawi have left Falluja to fight another day, overall, that's a setback for the resistance.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: That's when they become most vulnerable, when they're on the run, because they can't plan. They can't coordinate. They can't rehearse. And if you can constantly keep them on the run, you can whittle them down, instead of allowing them to whittle down your strategy.

TODD: The experts acknowledge, Zarqawi may eventually make his way back to Falluja. The key, they say, is to not let them stay there for long.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Another key for the coalition is to win over the local population in Falluja, a very difficult task and one that the Iraqis who are part of the coalition force have to play a crucial role in. Many commanders on the ground and elsewhere are anxious to see how they do -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd, thanks very much for that report.

Fierce firefights, snipers, house-to-house fighting. The worse may be over, but Falluja remains a very, very dangerous city.

Our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Even as U.S. military commanders announced that Falluja is 100 percent secure, in southern Falluja, Task Force 22 of the Army's 1st Infantry Division is mopping up the last remnants, tanks still one week later firing into suspected insurgent hideouts. Machine guns continue to rake Falluja's rooftops.

This is Falluja after the invasion, troops still clearing explosives, booby traps, kicking in doors, shooting into buildings where the final insurgents still might be, fighting to the death. The commanders say this has been a battle where you get street-wise fast or you become a casualty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was an individual fight, man to man, spider holes where guys would pop out of. After a Marine would go by it or a soldier would go by it, they'd pop out and attempt to shoot the Marine in the legs or in the back.

STARR: The Marines and Army may number control of Falluja, technically, but they know this fight is not over, that they will be on the streets of this city for some time to come.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: So will the Iraqis ever be up to the job of securing their own cities? Will the insurgents just filter back into Falluja? Joining us now, our world affairs analyst and former Defense Secretary William Cohen.

Let's take the first question first. Will the Iraqis be up to the job any time soon to secure these cities?

WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Hard to tell, but I doubt whether they can get the job any time soon. It is going to take some time.

We saw what took place in Mosul just a few days ago, where the police simply abandoned their facilities under the threat of the insurgents. And so it is going to take some time. I'm told that the Iraqis who are fighting are doing a good job. But securing that city is going to take more of them. And to sustain that is going to take a good deal longer than we think.

BLITZER: As you know, and you're a student of this, classic insurgencies, the insurgents sort of just melt away. They go away, but to come back when the opportunity is right. Do you have any -- should anyone have any illusions about these insurgents, that they're gone away for good?

COHEN: No, no illusions about that.

In addition to the insurgents coming back, we have to be concerned about more coming over the border from Syria and Iran. And, unless you can secure those borders, there can be the call to the jihad for more and more to come in, and so you're fighting an ever- diminishing problem, that you keep killing those insurgents, but more keep coming.

And Secretary Rumsfeld raised this issue last year, whether or not we were killing more insurgents than we were creating insurgents. And that's an issue that has yet to be involved.

BLITZER: So, do you assess that the elections in Iraq scheduled for the end of January can in fact go forward?

COHEN: Again, they're scheduled to go forward. A lot will depend upon what happens not only in Falluja in terms of securing that for the foreseeable future, but also what's taking place in Ramadi, in Mosul and elsewhere.

It's been suggested that we can go ahead without Sunni participation, but that can lead ultimately to a civil war and we're just postponing that inevitability. So, I think it is a very dangerous time. We're going to need more people on the ground, more Iraqis, hopefully, but we need greater international support as well in order to make this transition a reality.

BLITZER: Let's talk about the Cabinet reshuffle here in Washington.

You were a Republican senator for Maine for many, many years, before that, in the House. The second term of the Clinton administration, President Clinton brought you in to be secretary of defense, a Republican in a Democratic administration. What do you make of Colin Powell's decision to resign right now?

COHEN: Well, first, I'm surprised that we're so surprised. It's been rumored for nearly a year now that Secretary Powell was going to leave. And I think he sent all the signals indicating he was going to leave.

There's an expression. I think Churchill said this, that when eagles are silent, parrots begin to talk here. So we're parroting a lot what's taking place. And, ultimately, I think he's tired. He's been struggling to push this rock up a hill. And he's been doing so with one hand tied behind him because he hasn't had the full support within the administration.

So I think that he's made significant accomplishments, but, regrettably, he has not had that kind of support that would make it even more successful. So I think he's tired. I think he's satisfied he has really reinvigorated the morale in the State Department, that he feels good about that and talks about it frequently. And so he has many accomplishments. But I think there's a sense that he could have accomplished so much more, had there not been that kind of division within the administration that put him, as you've said before, odd man out.

BLITZER: The career diplomats, the foreign service officers in the State Department love him because he was a hard worker and a champion for what they were trying to do. Would Condoleezza Rice, do you think, step up to that mission?

COHEN: Well, I think she can and would if the president were to ask her. There's been, again, some speculation, that she may want to go back into the private world, to the university world of Stanford.

But if the president of the United States asked her to serve, I'm sure that she would take that into account. And she would add certainly continuity. She's been part of the national security team. So there's no learning curve on her part. She's a very capable individual. And I'm sure that she would carry it out with great admiration and capability for him.

BLITZER: William Cohen, thanks very much.

COHEN: Pleasure.

BLITZER: Anybody ask you to join the Cabinet yet?

(LAUGHTER)

COHEN: No. And I don't expect it.

BLITZER: Just wait. Maybe. You never know.

Furor in Florida after police use Taser gun -- yes, Taser guns -- on children.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SILVANA GOMEZ, TASERED BY POLICE: And I was scared sometimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What are police saying? We'll go live to Miami.

Also, this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If you could effect one change, just one, what would it be?

MADONNA, MUSICIAN: To get George Bush to study cabala.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I don't think George Bush is going to be studying cabala any time soon. Maybe Madonna would like to see him do that. She talks about politics and religion with our Richard Quest.

Plus, Kobe Bryant booed at the American Music Awards. We'll share that moment with you.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

In South Florida, Miami-Dade police are coming under fire for using Taser guns on children twice in just a matter of weeks. The circumstances in each case were very different.

Our national correspondent Susan Candiotti, is in Miami. She's joining us now live with details -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Wolf.

Yes, police say Tasers prevent injuries to suspects themselves and possibly others, but here in South Florida, when Tasers were used on two children in the last month, one a first-grader, the other a 12- year-old truant, well, it's created a stir.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Tasering a 12-year-old girl playing hooky isn't sitting well with the director of the Miami Dade Police Department.

SGT. PETER ANDREU, MIAMI DADE POLICE DEPARTMENT: He felt that it wasn't the most appropriate use of the Taser, but that's -- it needs to follow its course of review by the command staff.

CANDIOTTI: Police say the girl was zapped while running away from an officer.

GOMEZ: They did mess up. They did mess up. Obviously, they did because I'm underage and I haven't done nothing wrong. All did I was skip school.

CANDIOTTI: Skipping school might not be enough to Taser a child, say police, one of the things they're reviewing. The same agency defends Tasering a 6-year-old at school. Police say the bloody first grader was holding a security guard at bay with a shard of glass and wouldn't drop it. Community activists wonder whether there was another way.

GEORGIA AYERS, COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: I certainly don't want anyone putting a Taser ON my child or any other child that I know of.

CANDIOTTI: The school's principal says some parents have complained about the Taser, but no group meetings are planned.

Yet, in rural Putnam County, Florida, after middle and high schoolers were Tasered five times this year for alleged violent behavior, police are teaching students about the high-voltage weapons.

DET. TIM CAMPBELL, PUTNAM COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: No side effects, no harmful aftermath. You don't have to deal with the pepper spray, the baton beatings and stuff like that.

CANDIOTTI: Taser International says its safety tests are done on pigs. Its findings, Tasers can be used safely on anyone weighing more than 60 pounds. According to his family, the first grader in question weighs 53 pounds and vomited after being jolted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: In a statement to CNN, Taser International says it does not issue warnings based on age or population groups, based on its own safety findings. And, furthermore, the company says it's up to each individual police agency to set its own policy in that regard.

By the way, Wolf, Miami Dade Police Department's only restriction on using Tasers is pregnant woman. Police say they could hurt themselves falling.

BLITZER: Susan Candiotti, thanks very much for that report. We are going to take a quick break.

When we come back, we'll go to the Pentagon. There's a developing story we're following. Our Jamie McIntyre is standing by, an investigation under way into whether a United States Marine executed, executed an Iraqi.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There's a developing story we're following.

For details, let's go immediately to our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, a U.S. Marine is under investigation for shooting an insurgent prisoner at point black last Saturday.

The incident was captured on videotape by a U.S. television pool reporter who was traveling along with one of the Marine units in Falluja. The killing came a day after U.S. Marines stormed a Falluja mosque after taking fire from insurgents inside. The Marines killed 10 insurgents, wounded five others, who were given some medical treatment and then left to be picked up later.

Now, the next day -- that's last Saturday -- a different Marine unit went back into the mosque in response to the reports that the insurgent had returned. That's who we're seeing here. And you can hear gunfire inside the mosque as the original Marine unit where the TV -- embedded TV reporters with them arrives at the mosque and they begin to go inside.

At that point, one of the previous day's wounded, from the day before, three of them were lying inside dying and one severely wounded man is shot in the head by a U.S. Marine at point-blank range. We're not going to show you the actual shooting, because it is too explicit.

This is the point where the second Marine unit is coming in. They're discovering some of the wounded from the day before are in much worse shape. After the shooting takes place, the Marine is asked by a television -- told by the television reporter that these are the same wounded people.

This is the point where the shooting takes. And, again, we're not showing you that picture because it is too explicit. Afterwards, the TV reporter who's embedded with them comes up. The Marines says, you know, those were the same wounded people who were here the day before. The Marine says he doesn't know. He didn't know that. He's now under investigation to see whether he violated the rules of engagement, which would prohibit him from killing prisoner who was not a threat.

Now, it's possible that, in the fog of war, he didn't understand that these prisoners had been there before. And this was also a time, by the way, Wolf, when fellow Marines were dying all around him, including some from a booby-trapped body. But, again, that will be up for investigators to decide.

Meanwhile, the U.S. military is concerned that this kind of image could be very damaging because they're fighting insurgents who are fighting to the death, and they don't want to do anything to give them the idea that, if they turn themselves in, they'll be shot, which is clearly against U.S. military policy -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And, Jamie, I notice, quickly, that we distorted or pixelated some of the images there not to show faces. Is that right?

MCINTYRE: That's correct. That's because the implication here is that there might have been some wrongdoing. We don't know that that's the case. And until we do, we don't want to wrongly implicate anybody, in case an investigation clears them of what happened in this incident.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at Pentagon, a very sensitive subject, indeed.

William Cohen, the former defense secretary, still here with us.

What do you think? This sounds like potentially pretty serious line of work.

COHEN: Well, it is.

And I think, as Jamie has indicated, premature to start speculating about this, under investigation. As you have been showing all along, urban combat is probably the toughest and the worst kind of combat you can engage in, not knowing whether or not an individual who might be wounded might have a grenade, might somehow attack you, even though he's wounded.

You have to get all of the facts before you make a decision as to whether or not the man was -- quote -- "executed" under the circumstance. But, unless he posed a threat, then the rules of engagement would prohibit shooting him. So we'll have to wait and see. But it's a serious allegation. And I'm sure it will be investigated properly.

BLITZER: And the normal course of action now is to take a look. The investigators, the Marine investigators, Navy investigators, they come back and they go through the whole process.

Did this Marine know, this individual, this Iraqi -- and we'll show the tape again -- this Iraqi was wounded. Was he any danger? Was he any threat. And if they determine that he was no threat, that presumably he could be charged with murder.

I want our viewers to listen to this, as these Marine go into this mosque. Let's just listen and see what we can determine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) ... got shot up by tanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) come in here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The tanks did?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... people in here and tell us to come in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They only had two in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you shoot them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did they have any weapons on them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Same guys from yesterday? Same...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the ones from yesterday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the wounded that they never picked up.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) ... faking he's dead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he's breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's faking (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We -- obviously, we're not going to show the killing of that Iraqi that they believe, they suspect, was wounded lying there, as we saw.

You heard some of the comments from these Marines. What did you think?

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: Well, the comment was, was he -- did he have a weapon? If he had a weapon, that made a difference as to -- even though he was wounded, he could have posed a threat to them. So, again, premature to judge it. We haven't seen the entire film. And I think it needs to await the investigation.

BLITZER: And we distorted not only the faces, but some of the names that were on backpacks to make sure that we didn't do anything improper.

Secretary Cohen, we'll watch this story, disturbing video, indeed. We'll see what the military -- we'll see what the military does with this investigation. BLITZER: We'll take a quick break. More when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our Web question of the day. Take a look at the results, remembering, though, this is not -- not -- a scientific poll.

Religion and politics are often perceived as taboo in polite conversation, but not when the conversation involves Madonna and CNN's Richard Quest.

He interviewed her about her new children's book, although the conversation strayed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

QUEST: ... effect one change, just one, what would it be?

MADONNA: To get George Bush to study cabala. Yes. It would be amazing.

QUEST: And maybe Tony Blair could join him?

MADONNA: That's a very good idea.

QUEST: A final thought. If your daughter decided to prance around the stage in her underwear, singing and hollering, would you approve?

MADONNA: If she was an adult, there's, you know, not a lot I could do about it. She would be free to make that choice.

QUEST: Would you approve? If she behaved like you, if she mirrored your life to some extent, as a mother, who's now essentially found a spiritual way of life, would you approve?

MADONNA: Probably not.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Madonna suggesting that President Bush start studying cabala, Jewish mysticism. I don't think that's going to happen, but you never know.

Let's move on. Kobe Bryant, he got booed last night. Look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BOOING)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

KOBE BRYANT, NBA PLAYER: The three superstars up for favorite soul rhythm and blues albums are truly gifted artists. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Actually, it was a mixed reaction over at the American Music Awards last night, where he was a presenter. He drew both cheers and jeers from the audience, though it's unclear whether it was tied to the rape case in Colorado or his strained relations with the former Laker -- his Laker colleagues, Shaquille O'Neal and Phil Jackson -- Phil Jackson's book, by the way, a "New York Times" best- seller, on the best-sellers list right now.

And a domino record, it's our picture of the day. It took Dutch organizers a year to plan this amazing sight. Look at this. A team of 80 people spent two months setting it up. It took half-an-hour for the four million tiles to fall, half an hour, topping the old world record by more than 100,000 dominoes. Look at this. Very cool, indeed.

We're on twice a day, noon and 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com