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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Condoleezza Rice Selected as Secretary of State; Specter Meeting Resistance in Senate
Aired November 16, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, President Bush consolidates his control over U.S. foreign policy. He nominated Condoleezza Rice to be secretary of state.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In Dr. Rice, the world will see the strength, the grace and the decency of our country.
DOBBS: Senator Barbara Boxer says Rice will have to answer some tough questions in the Senate before she's confirmed. Senator Boxer is my guest.
Also tonight, I'll talk with top Republican strategist Grover Norquist, one of this country's most influential conservatives.
American and Iraqi troops won and extraordinary military victory in Falluja. But is the United States doing enough to win the peace? I'll be talking with the man in charge of reconstruction in Iraq, Andrew Natsios, administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development.
Taking Arizona's lead, a rising number of states are fed up with the federal government's failure to deal with our immigration crisis. More states want to put initiatives on the ballot to limit benefits for illegal aliens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The elites in Arizona, you know, both parties opposed Proposition 200. And yet the people still voted for it.
DOBBS: Congressman John Hostettler says the president's proposed guest worker program won't happen. He says it will simply displace American workers. He's our guest tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, November 16. Here for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today nominated one of his most loyal advisers, Condoleezza Rice, to replace Colin Powell as secretary of state. Rice has been the president's national security adviser for the past four years. Rice is expected to bring a more robust style of diplomacy.
Senior White House correspondent John King has our report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, as you noted, the president continuing a pattern of turning to his most trusted, closets advisers in filling key sensitive cabinet posts for the second term.
The president made that announcement today here at the White House at the Roosevelt Room. Both President Bush and Condoleezza Rice praising the outgoing secretary of state, Colin Powell.
Mr. Bush making note of Condoleezza Rice's upbringing in the segregated South. She teared up at one point as he said she learned from racism in this country to always fight for the rights of others and that that would be her view of the world.
In making the announcement today, the president called her one of his most trusted aides and outlined some of the challenges she will face if confirmed the secretary of state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: When confirmed by the Senate, Condoleezza Rice will take office at a critical time for our country. We're a nation at war. We're leading a large coalition against a determined enemy. We're putting in place new structures and institutions to confront outlaw regimes, to oppose proliferation of dangerous weapons and materials and to break up terror networks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: It is no secret that many here in the past four years at the Bush White House have been unhappy to say the least with leaks from the State Department that they view as critical to the president.
Condoleezza Rice, in her first words in accepting the president's calling for her to be the next secretary of state, tried to allay any fears that she is going to the State Department to stifle anti-Bush dissent in the department's far-flung bureaucracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, STATE DEPARTMENT NOMINEE: That in my 25 years of experience in foreign affairs, both in and out of government, I have come to know the men and women of the Department of State. I have the utmost admiration and respect for their skill, their professionalism, and their dedication.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Again, Rice one of this president's most trusted aides. And as he made the announcement today, he also named, and you see him there in the middle of the row with the red tie, Stephen Hadley, who has been the deputy to Condoleezza Rice. He'll now replace her as national security adviser.
And as this transition goes forward, many questioning now what will happen to Dr. Rice in confirmation hearings. Everyone here at the White House and everyone we've spoken to in Congress believes she will be easily confirmed by the Senate, but she will face some tough questions.
She has been accused of being a bad manager, and she will inherit a much bigger bureaucracy at the State Department than she has here at the White House.
She has been accused of underestimating and, in fact, ignoring the threat of terrorism before the 9/11 attacks. Also accused of at least being a part to blame of what administration critics call the bad planning for post-war Iraq.
So tough questions likely to come at her confirmation hearing. But all expect she will be confirmed. And then the big question is, will she be a rubber stamp for her friend the president, or will she add her own unique and independent voice to the continuing debates, whether the issue be the war in Iraq, the global war on terrorism, the new effort to bring peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians and the myriad of other global challenges she will face, Lou, when she moves from White House insider to secretary of state.
DOBBS: John, you characterized the question in terms of being a rubber stamp. But the level of tension that has existed, as you noted, between the State Department and the White House is hardly tolerable in any administration, is it?
KING: Well, this president has said in the past that he welcomes it. That he likes it when Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Condi Rice come in a room and essentially fight with each other and debate policy. This president has said he likes that approach, so long as when he makes the decision, they all go out and follow his decision and implement administration policy.
But many see, in this move, an effort by the president to put another loyalist in the government. And the big question is, when a government overseas criticizes American policy, will she, like Colin Powell, bring that word to the president, even if she knows he doesn't want to hear it, or will she just ignore it?
DOBBS: John King, our senior White House correspondent. Thank you, John.
President Bush's decision to nominate Rice as secretary of state is unlikely to please either France or Germany. The White House has strongly criticized both France and Germany for refusing to send troops to Iraq. Rice is likely to step up pressure on both Paris and Berlin to support U.S. policy and the global war on terror.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Britain's prime minister, Tony Blair, has tried to call a transatlantic truce.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: It is not a sensible or intelligent response for us in Europe to ridicule American arguments and parody their political leadership.
PILGRIM: Blair, the first European head of state to meet with President Bush after his re-election, is try to broker better relations. But some foreign policy experts are not optimistic European leaders will take the initiative.
PHILIP GORDON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's going to be an uphill struggle. The fact of the matter is that the Bush administration and the president, in particular, remain deeply unpopular in Europe, and that just makes it hard for European leaders to be seen as going out of their way to work with Bush.
PILGRIM: Relations, especially with French President Chirac, have been strained. So much so France's foreign minister, Michel Barnier, wrote an open letter in "The Wall Street Journal," calling for improvement, saying "America needs a capable, responsible Europe. And Europe needs a strong America, engaged in world affairs."
Some say the changes at the State Department may not improve transatlantic relations. Secretary of State Colin Powell was viewed as a multilateralist. Now Condoleezza Rice's off-quoted remark in 2003 to, quote, "punish France, ignore Germany, and forgive Russia," unquote, is being recalled.
DAVID ROTHKOPF, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: U.S. foreign policy is going to look like what it's looked like for the past four years. In fact, it may look like that only more so because one of the voices of dissent, which was Colin Powell, is going to depart.
PILGRIM: But some say the European rift is diminished in light of successes with major world powers.
SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R), TENNESSEE: We've never had better relations than we have with Japan, and improving our relationships with China and Russia. So you're right about France and Germany, but there's some other opportunities that she has, as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, Prime Minister Blair and French President Chirac will meet in London this week, and they'll discuss the transatlantic relationship. And one of the big divisive issues with the United States will also be on the agenda: the environment and the Kyoto Protocol -- Lou.
DOBBS: And French President Chirac already trying to drive a wedge, again, between Prime Minister Blair and President Bush.
PILGRIM: It is not looking that optimistic. And many of the people we spoke to today said it's going to be tough sledding.
DOBBS: Kitty Pilgrim, thank you.
Well, French President Chirac's opposition to President Bush and U.S. foreign policy may be contributing to his low and declining approval ratings in French opinion polls. The latest polls show Chirac with only 41 percent public support. That is his lowest rating in seven years. French voters have a long tradition of opposing U.S. foreign policy, by the way.
German voters are also deeply suspicious of the United States' foreign policy. That's why Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, also facing low opinion poll numbers, has been reluctant to express unequivocal support for the United States in the global war on terror. And meanwhile, his ratings, far lower than even those of French President Chirac.
On Capitol Hill today, tough questions for Senator Arlen Specter as he battles to become chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Specter is facing a storm of protests from conservatives after he suggested anti-abortion judges may not be confirmed by the Senate.
Congressional correspondent Ed Henry with the report -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
That's right. It's been a day of my drama in the Senate. Arlen specter enduring two face-to-face meetings with fellow Senate Republicans, trying desperately to save his attempt to become the Senate Judiciary chairman in the new Congress. That could be a very important job, with the prospect of several Supreme Court nominations possibly coming in the next year or two.
Specter just wrapped up a second meeting with Senate Republicans. And I can report there has finally been a tiny bit of momentum for Specter, some good news for him.
Several Republican senators came out of this meeting just moments ago, saying they think that Arlen Specter finally started making a very good case for how he will treat judicial nominations and judicial nominees fairly. Even though he's a moderate, he will treat conservatives and others fairly.
And more importantly, perhaps, the outgoing judiciary chairman, Orrin Hatch, literally threw his arm around Arlen Specter and endorsed him as his replacement.
Orrin Hatch also said it was a good meeting, and he thinks that Specter, quote, "will be a great chairman." Hatch added that he thinks that fellow Republicans on the judiciary committee will also start endorsing Specter from this moment on. This is still ongoing.
Specter, in recent days, has been saying that he will not count any chickens before they hatch. I went up to Senator Specter and said, "Are you counting chickens now?" He just smiled. He said he's still not counting chickens. But it's clear that he was in a good mood. He's feeling better.
And I can also tell you, though, that, as you, mentioned conservatives are still upset. Specter is not out of the woods quite yet. A group called the Christian Defense Coalition had a demonstration on Capitol Hill today. They said that, basically, conservatives helped deliver the last election for Republicans and that they are now owed something. They feel that a conservative should be the head of the Judiciary Committee.
Here's Reverend Patrick Mahoney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: If Senator Specter becomes head of the Judiciary, it is a betrayal and a slap in the face to millions of pro-life Americans who worked to help reelect this president and get a 55 Republican majority in the Senate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Another person to watch very closely in this drama is Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. Some of these conservative activists after that press conference went to Senator Frist's office to pray and actually pray for Frist to block Specter.
Frist is widely assumed to be a candidate in 2008 for president. He needs to have conservatives on board. Just a few moments ago, I asked Senator Frist in the hallway, "Do you think Arlen Specter is going to be the chairman?" He said, "We'll see."
So no endorsement yet from Bill Frist, but it's looking better for Arlen Specter at this moment -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the idea that the -- this group protesting there on Capitol Hill today or any other would suggest that they're the ones who determined who would be president and, therefore, would -- that should influence who is chairman of the Judiciary Committee, could you construct the reasoning there for me?
HENRY: Well, I can tell you I have spoken to some other Republican senators who are not on the Judiciary Committee, and they're very concerned about conservatives trying to exert too much influence coming out of this election.
I've spoken to some Republican senators privately who think it was really about the war on terror in this last election, not conservatives or liberals. It was about the president's stance on the war on terror. And they say it's very dangerous for the Republican leadership to look like they may be caving in to conservative activists on the agenda in the next Congress.
And they also say that the seniority system should work, some of these Republican senators who are supporting Specter. They say that Specter is next in line and he should get it.
And, as you mentioned, maybe conservatives should not be demanding who should be in charge -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Ed Henry.
Senate Democrats have a new leader tonight, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada. Senator Reid replaces Senator Tom Daschle who was defeated by John Thune in the election earlier this month.
Senator Reid said he hopes to take a bipartisan approach as minority leader.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: We're going to work with the president. He said four years ago he wanted to be a uniter. He called me the day after the election and said he wanted to be a uniter. It didn't work too well the first four years. We hope it works the second four years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Reid says Democrats will push for expanded access to health care, improved education and an increase in the minimum wage.
Turning tonight to Iraq, U.S. and Iraqi troops today stepped up their offensive to retake police stations occupied by insurgents in the northern city of Mosul. Anti-Iraqi forces took control of about 12 police stations in a failed attempt to slow down the U.S.-led assault on Falluja.
Senator Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the U.S. troops and their Iraqi counterparts are meeting very little resistance, according to U.S. commanders, as they launch an offensive in Mosul.
They have retaken the bridges which have been closed now as part of an effort to seal off the city, and they have recaptured most of the police stations that were taken by gunmen the last week, in many cases overwhelming the Iraqi police, some of which didn't even put up a fight.
The U.S. troops for this operation were pulled from Falluja and brought up to the North, and Iraqi forces were hastily assembled from around the country, including the border with Syria, in order to regain control of this northern city, the third largest city in Iraq.
The U.S. says at this point they believe their operation is going to be successful very quickly.
In Falluja, the mop-up operations continue. The U.S. does control 100 percent of the city, but they are still finding pockets of resistance. Wherever they can, they're putting the Iraqi troops out in front to search houses, look for caches of arms and arrest and detain possible insurgents in Falluja.
Those insurgents, by the way, are being sent to the Abu Ghraib prison for further questioning and intelligence.
And these stepped-up operations has pushed the U.S. casualty toll in Iraq now to over 90, approaching 100. That will make this month the deadliest month of combat in Iraq since last April when over 130 U.S. troops were killed. That's, of course, when the Marines went into Falluja the last time -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Radical Islamist terrorists in Iraq are believed to have killed Margaret Hassan, the international charity worker who was kidnapped in Baghdad last month.
Margaret Hassan's family say they believe she is dead after a videotape showing a man shooting a woman was sent to an Arab television network. Margaret Hassan had dual British and Iraqi citizenship. She was the director of CARE International in Iraq.
Still ahead here tonight, a glaring loophole could make it even easier for foreigners to take tens of thousands of American jobs. We're not talking about outsourcing. We're talking about H-1B and L-1 visas. We'll have that stunning special report.
And states take matters into their own hands when it comes to stopping the flood of illegal immigration. We'll have that report, and I'll be joined by Congressman John Hostettler, chairman of the House Immigration Subcommittee. He's our guest next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've just received word here at CNN that Margaret Spellings, the president's domestic policy adviser, will be nominated as secretary of the Department of Education to replace the departing Rod Paige. Again, Margaret Spellings to replace Rod Paige at the Department of Education.
Discouraging news tonight for American workers, especially in high technology. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have lost their jobs this year to cheap foreign labor markets and to foreigners holding H-1B and L-1 visas in particular. It now appears that lawmakers will soon make it possible for even more foreigners to obtain those visas and thereby putting more Americans out of work.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The H-1B program limits the number of visas for specialized foreign workers to no more than 65,000 a year. Business groups have been trying to raise the cap. An earlier bill stalled in Congress.
But now there's a new possibility: Attach an amendment to the omnibus budget bill. In Washington, that's as good as gold because the legislation has to pass, and congressional lawmakers can only vote it up or down.
MARCUS COURTNEY, WASHTECH: Now they're trying to ramrod it through the legislative process by attaching it to the appropriations bill. It's the wrong way, it's the wrong approach, and it's threatening the livelihood of U.S. high-tech workers.
SYLVESTER: The measure that has high-tech workers worried would exempt any foreign worker with a masters degree or higher from a U.S. university from the visa cap.
Immigration reform groups estimate as many as 20,000 new workers would enter the United States. That's on top of the 65,000 H-1B visa holders who have already filled this year's allotment.
Pro-business advocates say that's not a bad thing, arguing the country needs the additional workers.
LARRY PRESSLER, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: We don't have a lot of students who are willing to go into math and science and engineering, and, if they do, they want jobs in management or in investment banking.
SYLVESTER: But the U.S. high-tech industry has lost more than 700,000 jobs in the last four years.
ROSEMARY JENKS, NUMBERSUSA: It is just absurd that -- you know, with the unemployment among high-tech workers at its highest level, it's surpassed the national unemployment rate for the first time in 30 years, and yet Congress is bringing in more foreign workers to do these jobs.
SYLVESTER: The omnibus bill could make it to the floor by the end of this week. By then, it would be too late to make any significant changes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: H-1B visas have been very popular with employers. The fiscal year began on October 1, and, by the end of the business day, immigration officials had enough applications to meet the 65,000 cap -- Lou.
DOBBS: The leadership in Congress is effectively trying to sneak this in through the use of the omnibus spending bill. Isn't that a fair statement?
SYLVESTER: Well, I think one of the things that we've seen is that a lot of little goodies will be attached to the omnibus appropriations bill -- and this is one example of that -- because you don't have to -- it's essentially an up or down vote, and not many changes are made after it's presented -- Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington. Well, NASA tonight has successfully launched a third and final test flight of the X-43A Scramjet. This unmanned jet was designed to fly at 10 times the speed of sound -- that's right, 10 times the speed of sound -- nearly 7,000 miles an hour. NASA is still calculating the top speed achieved in tonight's flight.
Another spectacular sight tonight, by the way, will be visible. The annual Leonids meteor shower will rain space dust over our planet for the next several days. Every year at this time, earth passes through a debris cloud from the comet Temple Tuttle.
Tiny meteors, commonly called shooting stars, hit the earth's atmosphere and turn into fiery streaks. And with some luck in the weather, we'll be able to see all of that for some time, several days.
And more than 40 years after NASA's first missions to the moon, the European Space Agency's first lunar probe has entered the moon's orbit. SMART-1, as it's designated, will begin a study of the lunar surface in January. One main objective of the European mission is to look for evidence of water on the moon.
Coming up next here, illegal alien crackdown. States hoping to succeed where the federal government has failed. We'll have that special report.
And what's next for the Democratic Party? Influential conservative Grover Norquist says "The Democratic Party is toast." Grover Norquist is my guest.
And I'll be joined by Senator Barbara Boxer who has an altogether different view, of course, on the future of the Democratic Party, and we'll be talking with her at some length, coming up next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is warning of the threat of terrorists entering this country through the same routes as those used by illegal aliens. Secretary Rumsfeld, traveling in South America, warned that enemies look for weaknesses and take advantage of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The risk is that some of these human-smuggling routes into our country from this hemisphere could be used just as easily for terrorists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And three million illegal aliens are estimated to be entering this country this year.
Secretary Rumsfeld also said the United States has to be, as he put it, smarter and quicker in securing our borders. The federal government's failure to secure those borders is leading individual states to take action. Arizona's Proposition 200, which limits state benefits for illegals, passed overwhelmingly two weeks ago. Now at least half a dozen other states are considering similar measures.
Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): ... approved a law preventing illegal aliens from receiving state welfare benefits and requiring proof of citizenship for voter registration, similar efforts are gaining momentum in other states.
In California, there's an initiative under way to amend the state constitution. It would prevent illegal aliens from receiving driver's licenses and other state-funded benefits from reduced college tuition to nonemergency medical care.
The initiative's founder says he's encouraged by Arizona's election results, a 12-point victory for Proposition 200.
MIKE SPENCE, PRESIDENT, CALIFORNIA REPUBLICAN ASSEMBLY: The elites in Arizona, you know, of both parties opposed Proposition 200, and yet the people still voted for it. I think we're going to have that same situation here in California.
WIAN: From ballot initiatives to petition drives, seven states are now considering limits on illegal alien benefits. Many are motivated by the failure of the federal government to control illegal immigration.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: There's no other way to do it. When you have a government that is unwilling to defend our own border simply because -- and only because -- they fear the kind of political consequences that would accrue as a result of stopping the flow of illegal immigration, we've got a problem, a big problem, and the people in Arizona -- I say God bless them for addressing it.
WIAN: Most of the new proposals restricting benefits for illegal aliens are expected to reach voters or state legislatures in 2005 or 2006. Sponsors are learning from past experience, specifically court challenges to California's Proposition 187 10 years ago. It sought to deny most public benefits to illegal aliens, but parts were rejected by a federal judge.
So the new proposals plan to exempt federally-mandated benefits, such as emergency medical care and K-12 public schooling. Still, Latino advocacy groups plan to sue as soon as Arizona's law becomes certified next week.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: While it's unclear how the courts will rule, supporters say Proposition 200 has already accomplished something significant. Supporters say it has exploded the myth that Latinos favor illegal immigration because, of course, nearly half of Latinos in Arizona voted in favor of 200 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Some people conveniently forgetting that those Hispanics are also American citizens.
Casey Wian, thank you very much.
Well, immigration all but ignored in the presidential campaign and the run-up to the election, but certainly not ignored was the war in Iraq. My guest tonight says President Bush's 51 percent majority in this election would have been significantly higher were it not for the war in Iraq.
Grover Norquist is a Republican strategist, the president of Americans for Tax Reform, and says the president now has two years to, as he says, solve Iraq. Grover Norquist joins us from Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
GROVER NORQUIST, AMERICANS FOR TAX REFORM: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Two years, Grover? That's pretty demanding, given all the complexities, the difficulties in Iraq. Is it possible, in your judgment?
NORQUIST: Well, that's from "New York Times"' article where I was saying that when we go into the next election in two years, we need to be able to explain to the American people that Iraq is being solved. That's sort of the next political time at which people have to address it.
The economy has been growing. We've been creating jobs. GNP's been up. Productivity's been up. President Bush's victory in November would have been even stronger if you hadn't had the questions and the troubles and some people worrying about Iraq.
DOBBS: Right. That's what -- Grover, that's what I just said.
NORQUIST: Yes.
DOBBS: Don't you -- and my question remains, don't you think putting a two-year stricture on this is difficult, at best?
NORQUIST: Well, yes, except the president doesn't have to solve all of Iraq's problems in two years, he just has to have us on a road where the American people looking at it say, I see an exit strategy, I see what we're doing. I see that we're winning, and that Iraq is moving in the right direction, and America is going to end up being clearly safer.
DOBBS: And clearly safer. It does look as though that there is significant momentum being established by the U.S. military with some help from the Iraqi forces now in Iraq.
Do you think it's enough to give you, at least, some greater confidence?
NORQUIST: Oh, I think clearly the victory in Fallujah, the beating back of some of the efforts by the terrorists there suggests that the U.S. government is doing extremely well and moving in just the right direction.
DOBBS: You've also said that you think the Democratic Party is effectively toast, to use your word. You don't think they can recover from this just as Republicans have recovered from down cycles in previous years?
NORQUIST: No. And the reason is the Republican Party is not dependent on owning the presidency, the House or the Senate. Republicans are made up of businessmen and women and independent businessmen and gun owners and people who want to be left alone by the government. Not people who have government jobs or, as in the case of the Democratic Party, all of the building blocks of the Democratic Party require state help. The trial lawyers couldn't be making billions of dollars without bad tort law. The labor union leadership could not exist and have billions without government rules helping them.
DOBBS: Grover, if I may, let me suggest to you a couple areas in which that constituency you're talking about is a little dependent upon government. One, in terms of free trade, all of the free trade policies being enacted and some of them withheld until a more politically opportune time, in point of fact, are to benefit corporate America. There are effective outsourcing agreements.
NORQUIST: Well, obviously, the importance of free trade is most important to American consumers. And that's not a question of getting the government to do anybody a favor, it's just the government getting out of the way and particularly getting foreign governments to stop taxing our exports.
DOBBS: Yes, but Grover, the point is we have a $600 billion trade deficit, $1 that's in decline, and all of that because of something called free trade which you and I both know isn't. But rather than get into a discussion on that, let's go to some of the other issues, and that is, for example, the right turn that looks like it's in front of us, if the president were to nominate successfully two or three justices to the Supreme Court. Do you see that as the direction that is likely?
NORQUIST: I do. The Democrats have lost the presidency for sometime. When you look at the House and the Senate, they're unlikely to get those. That's why they focused on the Supreme Court as the one area that left a center politician still controlled. That ends with one, two or three Supreme Court appointments and the left's ability to go around the vote ends.
DOBBS: It ends? How so?
NORQUIST: Well, they used to be able to get the Supreme Court to give them stuff that the House, the Senate and the presidency and state legislatures wouldn't. You can't do that with a Supreme Court if it doesn't have sufficient left of center membership.
DOBBS: Grover Norquist, thanks for being here. Come back. We'll have further discussions on the ascendancy the right and the devise of the left as you see it. Grover Norquist, thanks.
"Tonight's Thought" is on war. "I say when you get into a war, you should win as quick as you can, because your loss has become a function of the duration of war. I believe when you get in a war, get everything you need and win it." The words of someone who certainly knew where he spoke, Dwight D. Eisenhower.
When we come back, Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer Of California will join me to talk about the president's second term, the cabinet shake-up, future of Iraq and the future of her party.
And a brawl at an awards show. One person is stabbed. We'll have the shocking story.
And also an unusual voice calling for suppression of expression. A great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: In just a moment here, I'll be talking with Senator Barbara Boxer of California. But first, let's take a look at some of the top stories in the news tonight.
The first conviction tonight in the deadly Madrid train bombing in March, 191 people were killed. A 16-year-old pleaded guilty to running explosives and collaborating with terrorists. He was sentenced to only six years in youth detention.
A new report from the Labor Department suggesting inflation is on the rise driven by high energy and food costs. In fact, the wholesale price increase of 1.7 percent in October is the largest since the early '90s.
And the UPN network will broadcast the so-called Vibe Awards tonight as scheduled despite violence at last night's taping. Police say one person was stabbed. A fight broke out during the ceremony. There were no arrests, by the way. Rapper Suge Knight was apparently worried the event may be canceled because of what he termed "negative incidents." This is the same Suge Knight, by the way, who has been in and out of jail since 1997, including a five-year sentence for assault and weapons violations.
Democratic senators today chose their new leader two weeks after election day. Senator Harry Reid of Nevada replaced Senator Tom Daschle who lost his bid for re-election. My guest tonight is a Democratic senator just elected to her third term in office. Senator Barbara Boxer of California joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you with us. SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Harry Reid, your new minority leader, you're confident he is the man?
BOXER: Yes. I've known him since I came to Congress. I got elected to the house in '82, and he was in that class. It was a very large freshman class. That was the old days, it's true. Harry has proven himself to be absolutely a man of his word, a man of principle, a quiet spoken person with a very strong conviction and a good heart.
DOBBS: And senator, I want to congratulate you on your re- election as well.
BOXER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Grover...
BOXER: Well, wait a minute. I don't know that Grover Norquist agreed that a Democrat won that night. But I'm happy to say we did have some good victories.
DOBBS: I was about to ask you that, senator. Grover Norquist was saying basically the Democratic Party -- not basically, he is saying it is toast. And I can count on you, I know, for a counterview to that. My real question here is, why in the world are the Democrats so filled with introspection and angst over having lost an election?
Don't people normally just dust themselves off and move ahead?
BOXER: Of course. And we are in the process of doing that. And that's why I'm so excited to be on your show to talk about the future. But I think what Grover Norquist is saying is, his wish and his dream that we would just go away. But you look at the vote, 57 million people voted for John Kerry. 60 million people or so voted for George Bush. You look at the Senate votes. Democratic senators got almost 4 million more votes than Republican senator candidates running. So the fact is, we're still out there. And we're fighting not only for those people who supported us, but for our country.
DOBBS: Let's go through some of the issues, senator. Because there are some critical issues facing us.
BOXER: Sure.
DOBBS: Neither your presidential candidate, nor the Republican presidential candidate, the president, wanted to deal with the issue of immigration. The administration and Congress, with its cooperation, with Democrats and Republicans, pushed the central free trade agreement over to the side so there wouldn't be any unnecessary attention to it during the election. A host of issues like that. Where will the Democrats engage?
BOXER: Well, I think we've engaged in a very good bill called the AG-Jobs bill, which I think you know about because you're such an expert on this. Here you have Larry Craig and Ted Kennedy, folks from different ends of the spectrum, coming together with the growers, with the labor people, everybody coming together to get hard-working people who really have a good record in this country on a path to legality. And we think that's a good way to start this process.
But you're right. It's a very, very tough issue, because the businesses want the labor, and obviously, there are folks desperate to make a living. And you put it together, and it spells problems for us, for sure.
DOBBS: How about the working man and woman in this country? We just reported that it appears now that the spending omnibus bill will carry with it an increase in the number of H-1, B and L-1 visas, without an up or down vote on that issue, per se, which with 700,000 technology workers out of -- without a job in this country...
BOXER: Yes.
DOBBS: ... I mean, what in the world is Congress doing here?
BOXER: I'm very upset about this, because the fact is, I'm very willing to listen to my high-tech people when they say they need more workers. But there has to be a test made so we make sure we're not taking jobs away. And, of course, if I might say, not to kiss up to you, your brilliant work on outsourcing really brought that issue into the homes of the American people.
DOBBS: You're very kind.
BOXER: Well, I mean it sincerely. This was an issue I raised a number of times in my race, and it resonated with people. I know personally people who are training their replacements, and we now -- and talk about the Democrats, we should have gotten the word out. We were fighting to stop outsourcing of federal dollars, so that when we gave money to states, they couldn't go outsource the jobs. And the Republicans killed it when it came to the conference committee.
So it's a heck of an issue, and it's an important issue. And we're going to be out there on that issue.
DOBBS: Senator Barbara Boxer, we thank you very much. And, you know, I kind of like the way you think, as you're my guest. You can come on and compliment me anytime you want. I appreciate it, Senator. Thank you very much.
BOXER: No, but I do mean that. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Same back at you.
On the issue of decency in prime-time television, the National Football League is blasting ABC for a risque spot shown last night ahead of "Monday Night Football." It featured Nicollette Sheridan in just a towel, by the way, asking Philadelphia Eagle receiver Terrell Owens to skip the game for her. She apparently dropped the towel. Owens said "the team's going to have to win this one without me."
The spot was an apparent spoof of the ABC hit "Desperate Housewives." And in a statement, ABC did apologize, admitting the placement of the spot was -- at least the placement of the spot was inappropriate.
Still ahead here tonight, the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country. More and more states are tired of waiting for the federal government to take action. We'll tell you how states are fighting that problem on their own.
Rebuilding Iraq. How insurgent violence is affecting our massive reconstruction effort. Andrew Natsios, the head of the USAID, is my guest next. All of that, a great deal more, still ahead here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Bush administration has already indicated that legalizing millions of illegal aliens in this country is a high priority in the president's second term. My next guest says the president's so-called guest worker program is essentially an amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. Congressman John Hostettler of Indiana is chairman of the House Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security, joining me tonight from Washington. It's good to have you with us, Mr. Chairman.
REP. JOHN HOSTETTLER (R-IN), CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND BORDER SECURITY: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's start with this guest worker program. Both candidates, Senator Kerry and President Bush, basically worked very hard during this campaign to avoid this issue. Will the House be taking it up in rigorous terms?
HOSTETTLER: Well, the House will not be taking up in a positive sense guest worker legislation. We know that this is a priority for some in Washington. It is not a priority for the House of Representatives. In fact, those of us in the House that deal closely with the immigration issue believe that we need to go the other way. And that is look at the issue of enforcement and strong enforcement of our immigration laws in order to keep not only more millions of illegal aliens out, but to do something about the 10 plus million that are here now.
DOBBS: Congressman, if you pause just a little, I think you're going to hear a lot of people cheering to hear an elected representative of the people talking in these terms.
The fact of the matter is, in your position, as chairman of the subcommittee, Donald Rumsfeld today, the secretary of defense, saying that he was now concerned that terrorists could use the same routes as used by human smugglers. Are you surprised to hear him at this rather late date acknowledging that risk?
HOSTETTLER: Oh, well, this is something that we have been concerned about for years. It is an issue that, as we look at the number of individuals crossing, for example, the southern border, referred to as OTMs, or other than Mexicans, that number is rising drastically, because others in the world realize that our southern border is porous. Our men and women in uniform and the Border Patrol are doing everything they can and then some to enforce and strengthen the border. There are just not enough of them. And this is something that there may be some disconnect within the administration, but there's no misunderstanding on the part of the House, and a majority of the Republicans in the House that feel that we need to be stronger on this issue, stronger on controlling the border and stronger on our enforcement interior to the borders through the Immigrations and Customs Enforcement Agency.
DOBBS: The report yesterday that 80 agents and with some, if you will, fanfare, 80 agents had been assigned to hunt down fugitive aliens, 400,000 of them. That would work out to one agent per 5,000 at large in the U.S. I mean, at what time -- at what point does the United States government quit having such an obvious sense of humor and start taking on a sense of responsibility about this? Does somebody think that we're all stupid, that the American people are stupid, that one agent is supposed to track down 5,000 illegal fugitive aliens?
HOSTETTLER: No, Lou. We in the House of Representatives do not short-change our constituents. And that's why, in the 9/11 recommendations bill that Speaker Hastert introduced in the House to deal with the 9/11 Commission report findings, we expanded the bill to include increasing the number of interior enforcement agents in the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency of the Department of Homeland Security. And we tripled it over a number of five years.
It is our hope -- it is my deep hope that when that bill is considered in conference, that we will be serious about enforcing our laws and keep the House provision in place that will triple the number of interior enforcement agents so we don't have one for every 5,000 absconders, but that we have a significant number more of agents who are tasked with these very important enforcement issues.
DOBBS: Congressman John Hostettler, we thank you for being here and look forward to talking to you in the near future.
HOSTETTLER: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, the future for Iraq. The man in charge of rebuilding Iraq will be with me. He's going to tell us how much time it's going to take, how much money. USAID Administrator Andrew Natsios is my guest here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says insurgent attacks in Baghdad, Falluja, elsewhere are not interfering with the reconstruction of Iraq. Andrew Natsios should know. He's the administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development leading the Iraqi reconstruction effort and joining us now. Good to see you again.
ANDREW NATSIOS, ADMINISTRATOR, USAID: Nice to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: The reconstruction effort in Iraq. What is the priority? NATSIOS: Well, even though the media creates the impression that the whole country's in chaos, the fact of the matter is, the Kurdish north is very stable.
DOBBS: Right.
NATSIOS: The Shia south is stable. We have programs all over the south. We have offices, we're able to move around. Various insecurity in the middle of the country. We know that. Falluja's been a problem.
DOBBS: The Sunni Triangle, certainly.
NATSIOS: Exactly. But 60 percent of the country is Shia and 15 percent is Kurdish. That's a lot of the country.
DOBBS: In that area in which you can operate effectively, what is the priority?
NATSIOS: The priority is first infrastructure reconstruction. The water and the sewage systems which both drain -- use water from the Tigris Euphrates River, the soap and sewage that goes into the river, and that's what people drink, it makes kids sick, it raises mortality rates. The second thing is the creation of jobs. Because if people have jobs, they're not shooting at us.
DOBBS: Have you got a sense of how many jobs you've been able to create and how much progress have you been able to make?
NATSIOS: We've rebuilt 2,500 schools using about 60,000 Iraqi laborers. We've got 70,000 people working right now cleaning up the streets, rebuilding water systems in the cities, in the largest city, Baghdad. We're rebuilding health clinics in the country. Most importantly, though, we're rebuilding local government to create a new democratic elite. There are 12,000 locally elected officials who are town councillors and city councillors. They're beginning to build the new Iraq at the local level. Not as visible. But you'll see many of these people running for higher office in the parliament in January.
DOBBS: And are you confident that those elections will be held?
NATSIOS: I am.
DOBBS: And are you confident as well that the Sunnis will be involved?
NATSIOS: Well, I think at some point what's going to occur to the Sunnis, that if they don't participate, there's going to be a new government, and they won't be part of it.
DOBBS: Very quickly, Darfur. I know your agency is taking assistance into the Sudan. How much have you spent and how much good have you been able to do?
NATSIOS: We've spent $300 million in Darfur and 70 percent of the food that's gone to Darfur is from the United States. President Bush, Secretary Powell have been instrumental in putting pressure on the Sudanese government. We have a third resolution going before the United Nations now. But unless there's great power focus, not just by us, but by the Europeans, the Japanese, the Canadians and African countries, the Sudanese are going to -- will wriggle out of this. But we also have to put pressure on the rebel groups. Because it has to be on both sides. If there isn't, then it's not going to work.
DOBBS: Afghanistan, Mohammed Omar again saying he is going to be back in recent reports. How confident -- how successful have you been there?
NATSIOS: We're building 1,000 schools. We're rebuilding 400 health clinics across the country, working with the Europeans and the World Bank on that. We've just rebuilt a 300-mile highway, and we're building another highway. And 1,000 kilometers of rural roads. All of that, people recognize is reconstruction, and a new day for the country.
DOBBS: It's impossible for the Taliban to return?
NATSIOS: They're not going to come back. There's no support for them.
DOBBS: Andrew Natsios, the administrator of the USAID. Thanks for being here.
NATSIOS: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll tell you what's ahead for tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: That's our broadcast for tonight. Please join us tomorrow. Among our other guests, the once anonymous member of the CIA Michael Scheuer, the author of "Imperial Hubris" will be here to tell us why he thinks we're losing the war on terror. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 16, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, President Bush consolidates his control over U.S. foreign policy. He nominated Condoleezza Rice to be secretary of state.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In Dr. Rice, the world will see the strength, the grace and the decency of our country.
DOBBS: Senator Barbara Boxer says Rice will have to answer some tough questions in the Senate before she's confirmed. Senator Boxer is my guest.
Also tonight, I'll talk with top Republican strategist Grover Norquist, one of this country's most influential conservatives.
American and Iraqi troops won and extraordinary military victory in Falluja. But is the United States doing enough to win the peace? I'll be talking with the man in charge of reconstruction in Iraq, Andrew Natsios, administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development.
Taking Arizona's lead, a rising number of states are fed up with the federal government's failure to deal with our immigration crisis. More states want to put initiatives on the ballot to limit benefits for illegal aliens.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The elites in Arizona, you know, both parties opposed Proposition 200. And yet the people still voted for it.
DOBBS: Congressman John Hostettler says the president's proposed guest worker program won't happen. He says it will simply displace American workers. He's our guest tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, November 16. Here for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
President Bush today nominated one of his most loyal advisers, Condoleezza Rice, to replace Colin Powell as secretary of state. Rice has been the president's national security adviser for the past four years. Rice is expected to bring a more robust style of diplomacy.
Senior White House correspondent John King has our report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, as you noted, the president continuing a pattern of turning to his most trusted, closets advisers in filling key sensitive cabinet posts for the second term.
The president made that announcement today here at the White House at the Roosevelt Room. Both President Bush and Condoleezza Rice praising the outgoing secretary of state, Colin Powell.
Mr. Bush making note of Condoleezza Rice's upbringing in the segregated South. She teared up at one point as he said she learned from racism in this country to always fight for the rights of others and that that would be her view of the world.
In making the announcement today, the president called her one of his most trusted aides and outlined some of the challenges she will face if confirmed the secretary of state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: When confirmed by the Senate, Condoleezza Rice will take office at a critical time for our country. We're a nation at war. We're leading a large coalition against a determined enemy. We're putting in place new structures and institutions to confront outlaw regimes, to oppose proliferation of dangerous weapons and materials and to break up terror networks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: It is no secret that many here in the past four years at the Bush White House have been unhappy to say the least with leaks from the State Department that they view as critical to the president.
Condoleezza Rice, in her first words in accepting the president's calling for her to be the next secretary of state, tried to allay any fears that she is going to the State Department to stifle anti-Bush dissent in the department's far-flung bureaucracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, STATE DEPARTMENT NOMINEE: That in my 25 years of experience in foreign affairs, both in and out of government, I have come to know the men and women of the Department of State. I have the utmost admiration and respect for their skill, their professionalism, and their dedication.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Again, Rice one of this president's most trusted aides. And as he made the announcement today, he also named, and you see him there in the middle of the row with the red tie, Stephen Hadley, who has been the deputy to Condoleezza Rice. He'll now replace her as national security adviser.
And as this transition goes forward, many questioning now what will happen to Dr. Rice in confirmation hearings. Everyone here at the White House and everyone we've spoken to in Congress believes she will be easily confirmed by the Senate, but she will face some tough questions.
She has been accused of being a bad manager, and she will inherit a much bigger bureaucracy at the State Department than she has here at the White House.
She has been accused of underestimating and, in fact, ignoring the threat of terrorism before the 9/11 attacks. Also accused of at least being a part to blame of what administration critics call the bad planning for post-war Iraq.
So tough questions likely to come at her confirmation hearing. But all expect she will be confirmed. And then the big question is, will she be a rubber stamp for her friend the president, or will she add her own unique and independent voice to the continuing debates, whether the issue be the war in Iraq, the global war on terrorism, the new effort to bring peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians and the myriad of other global challenges she will face, Lou, when she moves from White House insider to secretary of state.
DOBBS: John, you characterized the question in terms of being a rubber stamp. But the level of tension that has existed, as you noted, between the State Department and the White House is hardly tolerable in any administration, is it?
KING: Well, this president has said in the past that he welcomes it. That he likes it when Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Condi Rice come in a room and essentially fight with each other and debate policy. This president has said he likes that approach, so long as when he makes the decision, they all go out and follow his decision and implement administration policy.
But many see, in this move, an effort by the president to put another loyalist in the government. And the big question is, when a government overseas criticizes American policy, will she, like Colin Powell, bring that word to the president, even if she knows he doesn't want to hear it, or will she just ignore it?
DOBBS: John King, our senior White House correspondent. Thank you, John.
President Bush's decision to nominate Rice as secretary of state is unlikely to please either France or Germany. The White House has strongly criticized both France and Germany for refusing to send troops to Iraq. Rice is likely to step up pressure on both Paris and Berlin to support U.S. policy and the global war on terror.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Britain's prime minister, Tony Blair, has tried to call a transatlantic truce.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: It is not a sensible or intelligent response for us in Europe to ridicule American arguments and parody their political leadership.
PILGRIM: Blair, the first European head of state to meet with President Bush after his re-election, is try to broker better relations. But some foreign policy experts are not optimistic European leaders will take the initiative.
PHILIP GORDON, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's going to be an uphill struggle. The fact of the matter is that the Bush administration and the president, in particular, remain deeply unpopular in Europe, and that just makes it hard for European leaders to be seen as going out of their way to work with Bush.
PILGRIM: Relations, especially with French President Chirac, have been strained. So much so France's foreign minister, Michel Barnier, wrote an open letter in "The Wall Street Journal," calling for improvement, saying "America needs a capable, responsible Europe. And Europe needs a strong America, engaged in world affairs."
Some say the changes at the State Department may not improve transatlantic relations. Secretary of State Colin Powell was viewed as a multilateralist. Now Condoleezza Rice's off-quoted remark in 2003 to, quote, "punish France, ignore Germany, and forgive Russia," unquote, is being recalled.
DAVID ROTHKOPF, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: U.S. foreign policy is going to look like what it's looked like for the past four years. In fact, it may look like that only more so because one of the voices of dissent, which was Colin Powell, is going to depart.
PILGRIM: But some say the European rift is diminished in light of successes with major world powers.
SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R), TENNESSEE: We've never had better relations than we have with Japan, and improving our relationships with China and Russia. So you're right about France and Germany, but there's some other opportunities that she has, as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, Prime Minister Blair and French President Chirac will meet in London this week, and they'll discuss the transatlantic relationship. And one of the big divisive issues with the United States will also be on the agenda: the environment and the Kyoto Protocol -- Lou.
DOBBS: And French President Chirac already trying to drive a wedge, again, between Prime Minister Blair and President Bush.
PILGRIM: It is not looking that optimistic. And many of the people we spoke to today said it's going to be tough sledding.
DOBBS: Kitty Pilgrim, thank you.
Well, French President Chirac's opposition to President Bush and U.S. foreign policy may be contributing to his low and declining approval ratings in French opinion polls. The latest polls show Chirac with only 41 percent public support. That is his lowest rating in seven years. French voters have a long tradition of opposing U.S. foreign policy, by the way.
German voters are also deeply suspicious of the United States' foreign policy. That's why Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, also facing low opinion poll numbers, has been reluctant to express unequivocal support for the United States in the global war on terror. And meanwhile, his ratings, far lower than even those of French President Chirac.
On Capitol Hill today, tough questions for Senator Arlen Specter as he battles to become chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Specter is facing a storm of protests from conservatives after he suggested anti-abortion judges may not be confirmed by the Senate.
Congressional correspondent Ed Henry with the report -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
That's right. It's been a day of my drama in the Senate. Arlen specter enduring two face-to-face meetings with fellow Senate Republicans, trying desperately to save his attempt to become the Senate Judiciary chairman in the new Congress. That could be a very important job, with the prospect of several Supreme Court nominations possibly coming in the next year or two.
Specter just wrapped up a second meeting with Senate Republicans. And I can report there has finally been a tiny bit of momentum for Specter, some good news for him.
Several Republican senators came out of this meeting just moments ago, saying they think that Arlen Specter finally started making a very good case for how he will treat judicial nominations and judicial nominees fairly. Even though he's a moderate, he will treat conservatives and others fairly.
And more importantly, perhaps, the outgoing judiciary chairman, Orrin Hatch, literally threw his arm around Arlen Specter and endorsed him as his replacement.
Orrin Hatch also said it was a good meeting, and he thinks that Specter, quote, "will be a great chairman." Hatch added that he thinks that fellow Republicans on the judiciary committee will also start endorsing Specter from this moment on. This is still ongoing.
Specter, in recent days, has been saying that he will not count any chickens before they hatch. I went up to Senator Specter and said, "Are you counting chickens now?" He just smiled. He said he's still not counting chickens. But it's clear that he was in a good mood. He's feeling better.
And I can also tell you, though, that, as you, mentioned conservatives are still upset. Specter is not out of the woods quite yet. A group called the Christian Defense Coalition had a demonstration on Capitol Hill today. They said that, basically, conservatives helped deliver the last election for Republicans and that they are now owed something. They feel that a conservative should be the head of the Judiciary Committee.
Here's Reverend Patrick Mahoney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: If Senator Specter becomes head of the Judiciary, it is a betrayal and a slap in the face to millions of pro-life Americans who worked to help reelect this president and get a 55 Republican majority in the Senate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Another person to watch very closely in this drama is Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist. Some of these conservative activists after that press conference went to Senator Frist's office to pray and actually pray for Frist to block Specter.
Frist is widely assumed to be a candidate in 2008 for president. He needs to have conservatives on board. Just a few moments ago, I asked Senator Frist in the hallway, "Do you think Arlen Specter is going to be the chairman?" He said, "We'll see."
So no endorsement yet from Bill Frist, but it's looking better for Arlen Specter at this moment -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the idea that the -- this group protesting there on Capitol Hill today or any other would suggest that they're the ones who determined who would be president and, therefore, would -- that should influence who is chairman of the Judiciary Committee, could you construct the reasoning there for me?
HENRY: Well, I can tell you I have spoken to some other Republican senators who are not on the Judiciary Committee, and they're very concerned about conservatives trying to exert too much influence coming out of this election.
I've spoken to some Republican senators privately who think it was really about the war on terror in this last election, not conservatives or liberals. It was about the president's stance on the war on terror. And they say it's very dangerous for the Republican leadership to look like they may be caving in to conservative activists on the agenda in the next Congress.
And they also say that the seniority system should work, some of these Republican senators who are supporting Specter. They say that Specter is next in line and he should get it.
And, as you mentioned, maybe conservatives should not be demanding who should be in charge -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Ed Henry.
Senate Democrats have a new leader tonight, Senator Harry Reid of Nevada. Senator Reid replaces Senator Tom Daschle who was defeated by John Thune in the election earlier this month.
Senator Reid said he hopes to take a bipartisan approach as minority leader.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MINORITY LEADER: We're going to work with the president. He said four years ago he wanted to be a uniter. He called me the day after the election and said he wanted to be a uniter. It didn't work too well the first four years. We hope it works the second four years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Senator Reid says Democrats will push for expanded access to health care, improved education and an increase in the minimum wage.
Turning tonight to Iraq, U.S. and Iraqi troops today stepped up their offensive to retake police stations occupied by insurgents in the northern city of Mosul. Anti-Iraqi forces took control of about 12 police stations in a failed attempt to slow down the U.S.-led assault on Falluja.
Senator Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the U.S. troops and their Iraqi counterparts are meeting very little resistance, according to U.S. commanders, as they launch an offensive in Mosul.
They have retaken the bridges which have been closed now as part of an effort to seal off the city, and they have recaptured most of the police stations that were taken by gunmen the last week, in many cases overwhelming the Iraqi police, some of which didn't even put up a fight.
The U.S. troops for this operation were pulled from Falluja and brought up to the North, and Iraqi forces were hastily assembled from around the country, including the border with Syria, in order to regain control of this northern city, the third largest city in Iraq.
The U.S. says at this point they believe their operation is going to be successful very quickly.
In Falluja, the mop-up operations continue. The U.S. does control 100 percent of the city, but they are still finding pockets of resistance. Wherever they can, they're putting the Iraqi troops out in front to search houses, look for caches of arms and arrest and detain possible insurgents in Falluja.
Those insurgents, by the way, are being sent to the Abu Ghraib prison for further questioning and intelligence.
And these stepped-up operations has pushed the U.S. casualty toll in Iraq now to over 90, approaching 100. That will make this month the deadliest month of combat in Iraq since last April when over 130 U.S. troops were killed. That's, of course, when the Marines went into Falluja the last time -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Radical Islamist terrorists in Iraq are believed to have killed Margaret Hassan, the international charity worker who was kidnapped in Baghdad last month.
Margaret Hassan's family say they believe she is dead after a videotape showing a man shooting a woman was sent to an Arab television network. Margaret Hassan had dual British and Iraqi citizenship. She was the director of CARE International in Iraq.
Still ahead here tonight, a glaring loophole could make it even easier for foreigners to take tens of thousands of American jobs. We're not talking about outsourcing. We're talking about H-1B and L-1 visas. We'll have that stunning special report.
And states take matters into their own hands when it comes to stopping the flood of illegal immigration. We'll have that report, and I'll be joined by Congressman John Hostettler, chairman of the House Immigration Subcommittee. He's our guest next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We've just received word here at CNN that Margaret Spellings, the president's domestic policy adviser, will be nominated as secretary of the Department of Education to replace the departing Rod Paige. Again, Margaret Spellings to replace Rod Paige at the Department of Education.
Discouraging news tonight for American workers, especially in high technology. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have lost their jobs this year to cheap foreign labor markets and to foreigners holding H-1B and L-1 visas in particular. It now appears that lawmakers will soon make it possible for even more foreigners to obtain those visas and thereby putting more Americans out of work.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The H-1B program limits the number of visas for specialized foreign workers to no more than 65,000 a year. Business groups have been trying to raise the cap. An earlier bill stalled in Congress.
But now there's a new possibility: Attach an amendment to the omnibus budget bill. In Washington, that's as good as gold because the legislation has to pass, and congressional lawmakers can only vote it up or down.
MARCUS COURTNEY, WASHTECH: Now they're trying to ramrod it through the legislative process by attaching it to the appropriations bill. It's the wrong way, it's the wrong approach, and it's threatening the livelihood of U.S. high-tech workers.
SYLVESTER: The measure that has high-tech workers worried would exempt any foreign worker with a masters degree or higher from a U.S. university from the visa cap.
Immigration reform groups estimate as many as 20,000 new workers would enter the United States. That's on top of the 65,000 H-1B visa holders who have already filled this year's allotment.
Pro-business advocates say that's not a bad thing, arguing the country needs the additional workers.
LARRY PRESSLER, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: We don't have a lot of students who are willing to go into math and science and engineering, and, if they do, they want jobs in management or in investment banking.
SYLVESTER: But the U.S. high-tech industry has lost more than 700,000 jobs in the last four years.
ROSEMARY JENKS, NUMBERSUSA: It is just absurd that -- you know, with the unemployment among high-tech workers at its highest level, it's surpassed the national unemployment rate for the first time in 30 years, and yet Congress is bringing in more foreign workers to do these jobs.
SYLVESTER: The omnibus bill could make it to the floor by the end of this week. By then, it would be too late to make any significant changes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: H-1B visas have been very popular with employers. The fiscal year began on October 1, and, by the end of the business day, immigration officials had enough applications to meet the 65,000 cap -- Lou.
DOBBS: The leadership in Congress is effectively trying to sneak this in through the use of the omnibus spending bill. Isn't that a fair statement?
SYLVESTER: Well, I think one of the things that we've seen is that a lot of little goodies will be attached to the omnibus appropriations bill -- and this is one example of that -- because you don't have to -- it's essentially an up or down vote, and not many changes are made after it's presented -- Lou.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester reporting from Washington. Well, NASA tonight has successfully launched a third and final test flight of the X-43A Scramjet. This unmanned jet was designed to fly at 10 times the speed of sound -- that's right, 10 times the speed of sound -- nearly 7,000 miles an hour. NASA is still calculating the top speed achieved in tonight's flight.
Another spectacular sight tonight, by the way, will be visible. The annual Leonids meteor shower will rain space dust over our planet for the next several days. Every year at this time, earth passes through a debris cloud from the comet Temple Tuttle.
Tiny meteors, commonly called shooting stars, hit the earth's atmosphere and turn into fiery streaks. And with some luck in the weather, we'll be able to see all of that for some time, several days.
And more than 40 years after NASA's first missions to the moon, the European Space Agency's first lunar probe has entered the moon's orbit. SMART-1, as it's designated, will begin a study of the lunar surface in January. One main objective of the European mission is to look for evidence of water on the moon.
Coming up next here, illegal alien crackdown. States hoping to succeed where the federal government has failed. We'll have that special report.
And what's next for the Democratic Party? Influential conservative Grover Norquist says "The Democratic Party is toast." Grover Norquist is my guest.
And I'll be joined by Senator Barbara Boxer who has an altogether different view, of course, on the future of the Democratic Party, and we'll be talking with her at some length, coming up next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is warning of the threat of terrorists entering this country through the same routes as those used by illegal aliens. Secretary Rumsfeld, traveling in South America, warned that enemies look for weaknesses and take advantage of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The risk is that some of these human-smuggling routes into our country from this hemisphere could be used just as easily for terrorists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And three million illegal aliens are estimated to be entering this country this year.
Secretary Rumsfeld also said the United States has to be, as he put it, smarter and quicker in securing our borders. The federal government's failure to secure those borders is leading individual states to take action. Arizona's Proposition 200, which limits state benefits for illegals, passed overwhelmingly two weeks ago. Now at least half a dozen other states are considering similar measures.
Casey Wian reports from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): ... approved a law preventing illegal aliens from receiving state welfare benefits and requiring proof of citizenship for voter registration, similar efforts are gaining momentum in other states.
In California, there's an initiative under way to amend the state constitution. It would prevent illegal aliens from receiving driver's licenses and other state-funded benefits from reduced college tuition to nonemergency medical care.
The initiative's founder says he's encouraged by Arizona's election results, a 12-point victory for Proposition 200.
MIKE SPENCE, PRESIDENT, CALIFORNIA REPUBLICAN ASSEMBLY: The elites in Arizona, you know, of both parties opposed Proposition 200, and yet the people still voted for it. I think we're going to have that same situation here in California.
WIAN: From ballot initiatives to petition drives, seven states are now considering limits on illegal alien benefits. Many are motivated by the failure of the federal government to control illegal immigration.
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: There's no other way to do it. When you have a government that is unwilling to defend our own border simply because -- and only because -- they fear the kind of political consequences that would accrue as a result of stopping the flow of illegal immigration, we've got a problem, a big problem, and the people in Arizona -- I say God bless them for addressing it.
WIAN: Most of the new proposals restricting benefits for illegal aliens are expected to reach voters or state legislatures in 2005 or 2006. Sponsors are learning from past experience, specifically court challenges to California's Proposition 187 10 years ago. It sought to deny most public benefits to illegal aliens, but parts were rejected by a federal judge.
So the new proposals plan to exempt federally-mandated benefits, such as emergency medical care and K-12 public schooling. Still, Latino advocacy groups plan to sue as soon as Arizona's law becomes certified next week.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: While it's unclear how the courts will rule, supporters say Proposition 200 has already accomplished something significant. Supporters say it has exploded the myth that Latinos favor illegal immigration because, of course, nearly half of Latinos in Arizona voted in favor of 200 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Some people conveniently forgetting that those Hispanics are also American citizens.
Casey Wian, thank you very much.
Well, immigration all but ignored in the presidential campaign and the run-up to the election, but certainly not ignored was the war in Iraq. My guest tonight says President Bush's 51 percent majority in this election would have been significantly higher were it not for the war in Iraq.
Grover Norquist is a Republican strategist, the president of Americans for Tax Reform, and says the president now has two years to, as he says, solve Iraq. Grover Norquist joins us from Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
GROVER NORQUIST, AMERICANS FOR TAX REFORM: Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Two years, Grover? That's pretty demanding, given all the complexities, the difficulties in Iraq. Is it possible, in your judgment?
NORQUIST: Well, that's from "New York Times"' article where I was saying that when we go into the next election in two years, we need to be able to explain to the American people that Iraq is being solved. That's sort of the next political time at which people have to address it.
The economy has been growing. We've been creating jobs. GNP's been up. Productivity's been up. President Bush's victory in November would have been even stronger if you hadn't had the questions and the troubles and some people worrying about Iraq.
DOBBS: Right. That's what -- Grover, that's what I just said.
NORQUIST: Yes.
DOBBS: Don't you -- and my question remains, don't you think putting a two-year stricture on this is difficult, at best?
NORQUIST: Well, yes, except the president doesn't have to solve all of Iraq's problems in two years, he just has to have us on a road where the American people looking at it say, I see an exit strategy, I see what we're doing. I see that we're winning, and that Iraq is moving in the right direction, and America is going to end up being clearly safer.
DOBBS: And clearly safer. It does look as though that there is significant momentum being established by the U.S. military with some help from the Iraqi forces now in Iraq.
Do you think it's enough to give you, at least, some greater confidence?
NORQUIST: Oh, I think clearly the victory in Fallujah, the beating back of some of the efforts by the terrorists there suggests that the U.S. government is doing extremely well and moving in just the right direction.
DOBBS: You've also said that you think the Democratic Party is effectively toast, to use your word. You don't think they can recover from this just as Republicans have recovered from down cycles in previous years?
NORQUIST: No. And the reason is the Republican Party is not dependent on owning the presidency, the House or the Senate. Republicans are made up of businessmen and women and independent businessmen and gun owners and people who want to be left alone by the government. Not people who have government jobs or, as in the case of the Democratic Party, all of the building blocks of the Democratic Party require state help. The trial lawyers couldn't be making billions of dollars without bad tort law. The labor union leadership could not exist and have billions without government rules helping them.
DOBBS: Grover, if I may, let me suggest to you a couple areas in which that constituency you're talking about is a little dependent upon government. One, in terms of free trade, all of the free trade policies being enacted and some of them withheld until a more politically opportune time, in point of fact, are to benefit corporate America. There are effective outsourcing agreements.
NORQUIST: Well, obviously, the importance of free trade is most important to American consumers. And that's not a question of getting the government to do anybody a favor, it's just the government getting out of the way and particularly getting foreign governments to stop taxing our exports.
DOBBS: Yes, but Grover, the point is we have a $600 billion trade deficit, $1 that's in decline, and all of that because of something called free trade which you and I both know isn't. But rather than get into a discussion on that, let's go to some of the other issues, and that is, for example, the right turn that looks like it's in front of us, if the president were to nominate successfully two or three justices to the Supreme Court. Do you see that as the direction that is likely?
NORQUIST: I do. The Democrats have lost the presidency for sometime. When you look at the House and the Senate, they're unlikely to get those. That's why they focused on the Supreme Court as the one area that left a center politician still controlled. That ends with one, two or three Supreme Court appointments and the left's ability to go around the vote ends.
DOBBS: It ends? How so?
NORQUIST: Well, they used to be able to get the Supreme Court to give them stuff that the House, the Senate and the presidency and state legislatures wouldn't. You can't do that with a Supreme Court if it doesn't have sufficient left of center membership.
DOBBS: Grover Norquist, thanks for being here. Come back. We'll have further discussions on the ascendancy the right and the devise of the left as you see it. Grover Norquist, thanks.
"Tonight's Thought" is on war. "I say when you get into a war, you should win as quick as you can, because your loss has become a function of the duration of war. I believe when you get in a war, get everything you need and win it." The words of someone who certainly knew where he spoke, Dwight D. Eisenhower.
When we come back, Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer Of California will join me to talk about the president's second term, the cabinet shake-up, future of Iraq and the future of her party.
And a brawl at an awards show. One person is stabbed. We'll have the shocking story.
And also an unusual voice calling for suppression of expression. A great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: In just a moment here, I'll be talking with Senator Barbara Boxer of California. But first, let's take a look at some of the top stories in the news tonight.
The first conviction tonight in the deadly Madrid train bombing in March, 191 people were killed. A 16-year-old pleaded guilty to running explosives and collaborating with terrorists. He was sentenced to only six years in youth detention.
A new report from the Labor Department suggesting inflation is on the rise driven by high energy and food costs. In fact, the wholesale price increase of 1.7 percent in October is the largest since the early '90s.
And the UPN network will broadcast the so-called Vibe Awards tonight as scheduled despite violence at last night's taping. Police say one person was stabbed. A fight broke out during the ceremony. There were no arrests, by the way. Rapper Suge Knight was apparently worried the event may be canceled because of what he termed "negative incidents." This is the same Suge Knight, by the way, who has been in and out of jail since 1997, including a five-year sentence for assault and weapons violations.
Democratic senators today chose their new leader two weeks after election day. Senator Harry Reid of Nevada replaced Senator Tom Daschle who lost his bid for re-election. My guest tonight is a Democratic senator just elected to her third term in office. Senator Barbara Boxer of California joins us tonight from Capitol Hill.
Senator, good to have you with us. SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Harry Reid, your new minority leader, you're confident he is the man?
BOXER: Yes. I've known him since I came to Congress. I got elected to the house in '82, and he was in that class. It was a very large freshman class. That was the old days, it's true. Harry has proven himself to be absolutely a man of his word, a man of principle, a quiet spoken person with a very strong conviction and a good heart.
DOBBS: And senator, I want to congratulate you on your re- election as well.
BOXER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Grover...
BOXER: Well, wait a minute. I don't know that Grover Norquist agreed that a Democrat won that night. But I'm happy to say we did have some good victories.
DOBBS: I was about to ask you that, senator. Grover Norquist was saying basically the Democratic Party -- not basically, he is saying it is toast. And I can count on you, I know, for a counterview to that. My real question here is, why in the world are the Democrats so filled with introspection and angst over having lost an election?
Don't people normally just dust themselves off and move ahead?
BOXER: Of course. And we are in the process of doing that. And that's why I'm so excited to be on your show to talk about the future. But I think what Grover Norquist is saying is, his wish and his dream that we would just go away. But you look at the vote, 57 million people voted for John Kerry. 60 million people or so voted for George Bush. You look at the Senate votes. Democratic senators got almost 4 million more votes than Republican senator candidates running. So the fact is, we're still out there. And we're fighting not only for those people who supported us, but for our country.
DOBBS: Let's go through some of the issues, senator. Because there are some critical issues facing us.
BOXER: Sure.
DOBBS: Neither your presidential candidate, nor the Republican presidential candidate, the president, wanted to deal with the issue of immigration. The administration and Congress, with its cooperation, with Democrats and Republicans, pushed the central free trade agreement over to the side so there wouldn't be any unnecessary attention to it during the election. A host of issues like that. Where will the Democrats engage?
BOXER: Well, I think we've engaged in a very good bill called the AG-Jobs bill, which I think you know about because you're such an expert on this. Here you have Larry Craig and Ted Kennedy, folks from different ends of the spectrum, coming together with the growers, with the labor people, everybody coming together to get hard-working people who really have a good record in this country on a path to legality. And we think that's a good way to start this process.
But you're right. It's a very, very tough issue, because the businesses want the labor, and obviously, there are folks desperate to make a living. And you put it together, and it spells problems for us, for sure.
DOBBS: How about the working man and woman in this country? We just reported that it appears now that the spending omnibus bill will carry with it an increase in the number of H-1, B and L-1 visas, without an up or down vote on that issue, per se, which with 700,000 technology workers out of -- without a job in this country...
BOXER: Yes.
DOBBS: ... I mean, what in the world is Congress doing here?
BOXER: I'm very upset about this, because the fact is, I'm very willing to listen to my high-tech people when they say they need more workers. But there has to be a test made so we make sure we're not taking jobs away. And, of course, if I might say, not to kiss up to you, your brilliant work on outsourcing really brought that issue into the homes of the American people.
DOBBS: You're very kind.
BOXER: Well, I mean it sincerely. This was an issue I raised a number of times in my race, and it resonated with people. I know personally people who are training their replacements, and we now -- and talk about the Democrats, we should have gotten the word out. We were fighting to stop outsourcing of federal dollars, so that when we gave money to states, they couldn't go outsource the jobs. And the Republicans killed it when it came to the conference committee.
So it's a heck of an issue, and it's an important issue. And we're going to be out there on that issue.
DOBBS: Senator Barbara Boxer, we thank you very much. And, you know, I kind of like the way you think, as you're my guest. You can come on and compliment me anytime you want. I appreciate it, Senator. Thank you very much.
BOXER: No, but I do mean that. Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Same back at you.
On the issue of decency in prime-time television, the National Football League is blasting ABC for a risque spot shown last night ahead of "Monday Night Football." It featured Nicollette Sheridan in just a towel, by the way, asking Philadelphia Eagle receiver Terrell Owens to skip the game for her. She apparently dropped the towel. Owens said "the team's going to have to win this one without me."
The spot was an apparent spoof of the ABC hit "Desperate Housewives." And in a statement, ABC did apologize, admitting the placement of the spot was -- at least the placement of the spot was inappropriate.
Still ahead here tonight, the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country. More and more states are tired of waiting for the federal government to take action. We'll tell you how states are fighting that problem on their own.
Rebuilding Iraq. How insurgent violence is affecting our massive reconstruction effort. Andrew Natsios, the head of the USAID, is my guest next. All of that, a great deal more, still ahead here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Bush administration has already indicated that legalizing millions of illegal aliens in this country is a high priority in the president's second term. My next guest says the president's so-called guest worker program is essentially an amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. Congressman John Hostettler of Indiana is chairman of the House Subcommittee on Immigration and Border Security, joining me tonight from Washington. It's good to have you with us, Mr. Chairman.
REP. JOHN HOSTETTLER (R-IN), CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION AND BORDER SECURITY: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's start with this guest worker program. Both candidates, Senator Kerry and President Bush, basically worked very hard during this campaign to avoid this issue. Will the House be taking it up in rigorous terms?
HOSTETTLER: Well, the House will not be taking up in a positive sense guest worker legislation. We know that this is a priority for some in Washington. It is not a priority for the House of Representatives. In fact, those of us in the House that deal closely with the immigration issue believe that we need to go the other way. And that is look at the issue of enforcement and strong enforcement of our immigration laws in order to keep not only more millions of illegal aliens out, but to do something about the 10 plus million that are here now.
DOBBS: Congressman, if you pause just a little, I think you're going to hear a lot of people cheering to hear an elected representative of the people talking in these terms.
The fact of the matter is, in your position, as chairman of the subcommittee, Donald Rumsfeld today, the secretary of defense, saying that he was now concerned that terrorists could use the same routes as used by human smugglers. Are you surprised to hear him at this rather late date acknowledging that risk?
HOSTETTLER: Oh, well, this is something that we have been concerned about for years. It is an issue that, as we look at the number of individuals crossing, for example, the southern border, referred to as OTMs, or other than Mexicans, that number is rising drastically, because others in the world realize that our southern border is porous. Our men and women in uniform and the Border Patrol are doing everything they can and then some to enforce and strengthen the border. There are just not enough of them. And this is something that there may be some disconnect within the administration, but there's no misunderstanding on the part of the House, and a majority of the Republicans in the House that feel that we need to be stronger on this issue, stronger on controlling the border and stronger on our enforcement interior to the borders through the Immigrations and Customs Enforcement Agency.
DOBBS: The report yesterday that 80 agents and with some, if you will, fanfare, 80 agents had been assigned to hunt down fugitive aliens, 400,000 of them. That would work out to one agent per 5,000 at large in the U.S. I mean, at what time -- at what point does the United States government quit having such an obvious sense of humor and start taking on a sense of responsibility about this? Does somebody think that we're all stupid, that the American people are stupid, that one agent is supposed to track down 5,000 illegal fugitive aliens?
HOSTETTLER: No, Lou. We in the House of Representatives do not short-change our constituents. And that's why, in the 9/11 recommendations bill that Speaker Hastert introduced in the House to deal with the 9/11 Commission report findings, we expanded the bill to include increasing the number of interior enforcement agents in the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency of the Department of Homeland Security. And we tripled it over a number of five years.
It is our hope -- it is my deep hope that when that bill is considered in conference, that we will be serious about enforcing our laws and keep the House provision in place that will triple the number of interior enforcement agents so we don't have one for every 5,000 absconders, but that we have a significant number more of agents who are tasked with these very important enforcement issues.
DOBBS: Congressman John Hostettler, we thank you for being here and look forward to talking to you in the near future.
HOSTETTLER: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, the future for Iraq. The man in charge of rebuilding Iraq will be with me. He's going to tell us how much time it's going to take, how much money. USAID Administrator Andrew Natsios is my guest here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says insurgent attacks in Baghdad, Falluja, elsewhere are not interfering with the reconstruction of Iraq. Andrew Natsios should know. He's the administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development leading the Iraqi reconstruction effort and joining us now. Good to see you again.
ANDREW NATSIOS, ADMINISTRATOR, USAID: Nice to see you, Lou.
DOBBS: The reconstruction effort in Iraq. What is the priority? NATSIOS: Well, even though the media creates the impression that the whole country's in chaos, the fact of the matter is, the Kurdish north is very stable.
DOBBS: Right.
NATSIOS: The Shia south is stable. We have programs all over the south. We have offices, we're able to move around. Various insecurity in the middle of the country. We know that. Falluja's been a problem.
DOBBS: The Sunni Triangle, certainly.
NATSIOS: Exactly. But 60 percent of the country is Shia and 15 percent is Kurdish. That's a lot of the country.
DOBBS: In that area in which you can operate effectively, what is the priority?
NATSIOS: The priority is first infrastructure reconstruction. The water and the sewage systems which both drain -- use water from the Tigris Euphrates River, the soap and sewage that goes into the river, and that's what people drink, it makes kids sick, it raises mortality rates. The second thing is the creation of jobs. Because if people have jobs, they're not shooting at us.
DOBBS: Have you got a sense of how many jobs you've been able to create and how much progress have you been able to make?
NATSIOS: We've rebuilt 2,500 schools using about 60,000 Iraqi laborers. We've got 70,000 people working right now cleaning up the streets, rebuilding water systems in the cities, in the largest city, Baghdad. We're rebuilding health clinics in the country. Most importantly, though, we're rebuilding local government to create a new democratic elite. There are 12,000 locally elected officials who are town councillors and city councillors. They're beginning to build the new Iraq at the local level. Not as visible. But you'll see many of these people running for higher office in the parliament in January.
DOBBS: And are you confident that those elections will be held?
NATSIOS: I am.
DOBBS: And are you confident as well that the Sunnis will be involved?
NATSIOS: Well, I think at some point what's going to occur to the Sunnis, that if they don't participate, there's going to be a new government, and they won't be part of it.
DOBBS: Very quickly, Darfur. I know your agency is taking assistance into the Sudan. How much have you spent and how much good have you been able to do?
NATSIOS: We've spent $300 million in Darfur and 70 percent of the food that's gone to Darfur is from the United States. President Bush, Secretary Powell have been instrumental in putting pressure on the Sudanese government. We have a third resolution going before the United Nations now. But unless there's great power focus, not just by us, but by the Europeans, the Japanese, the Canadians and African countries, the Sudanese are going to -- will wriggle out of this. But we also have to put pressure on the rebel groups. Because it has to be on both sides. If there isn't, then it's not going to work.
DOBBS: Afghanistan, Mohammed Omar again saying he is going to be back in recent reports. How confident -- how successful have you been there?
NATSIOS: We're building 1,000 schools. We're rebuilding 400 health clinics across the country, working with the Europeans and the World Bank on that. We've just rebuilt a 300-mile highway, and we're building another highway. And 1,000 kilometers of rural roads. All of that, people recognize is reconstruction, and a new day for the country.
DOBBS: It's impossible for the Taliban to return?
NATSIOS: They're not going to come back. There's no support for them.
DOBBS: Andrew Natsios, the administrator of the USAID. Thanks for being here.
NATSIOS: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll tell you what's ahead for tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: That's our broadcast for tonight. Please join us tomorrow. Among our other guests, the once anonymous member of the CIA Michael Scheuer, the author of "Imperial Hubris" will be here to tell us why he thinks we're losing the war on terror. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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