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American Morning
Sen. Lieberman Urges 9/11 Reforms; More Details Emerge of Possible Foiled Terror Plot in London
Aired November 23, 2004 - 08:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Is al Qaeda plotting to fly planes into buildings in Great Britain? London's reaction to a shocking report.
Millions of Americans planning Thanksgiving trips for tomorrow. It won't be pretty.
The NBA brawl -- now prosecutors are getting an idea just how bad fans might be charged.
And the wet get wetter in Texas. Floods driving hundreds more people from the comfort of their homes on this AMERICAN MORNING.
From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everybody. Nine o'clock here in New York.
We'd like you, too, to come play again right over here on 6th Avenue. We've got time today.
O'BRIEN: Because we're ready now.
HEMMER: We missed you yesterday.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
HEMMER: We're not going to miss it this time.
O'BRIEN: Well, we didn't tell anybody. It was sort of surprise PR. And a pretty good job they did.
HEMMER: Yes. Three thousand turned out, too, underneath the Brooklyn Bridge. So we'll show you that a bit later this hour.
Among the headlines, too, President Bush and members of Congress have their work cut out for them, persuading to powerful House Republicans to go along with reforms of 9/11. We'll talk about what must be done now to get things moving. Senator Joe Lieberman our guest, a sponsor of the bill on the Senate side. We'll talk to Senator Lieberman in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Also this morning, we talk a little bit more about that basketball fight. We're going to hear from a man who was there, says he could not believe what he was seeing. Also, we'll talk to Jeff Toobin about some of the legal issues that are now raised in the pressing of charges in that fight.
HEMMER: Wonder how many times they've watched that videotape going back and forth and back and forth.
Jack Cafferty, too.
Good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: How many times do you suppose that thing's been on the air? Not just on CNN -- all over the country.
HEMMER: A lot.
CAFFERTY: And it will happen for a long time to come. They're going to have a real stain, I think, permanent long-lasting.
HEMMER: You bet.
CAFFERTY: The government's out with TV commercials urging us all to talk to our children about terrorism. Good idea, or simply a way to frighten them? Is it a concept that's too tough for them to get their arms around?
AM@CNN.com. Drop us a note. We'll read some of your letters in a few minutes.
HEMMER: All right.
To the headlines now. Kelly Wallace with us this morning here in New York.
Good morning, Kelly. Good to have you.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. And great to be here.
Good morning, everyone. A look now at other stories in the news.
Another religious leader opposing the upcoming elections in Iraq has been gunned down. The shooting comes a day after another prominent spiritual leader was killed in Mosul. Both were part of a Sunni cleric's group that have called for a boycott of the January elections. It is not clear if the two killings are connected.
In Afghanistan, three U.N. workers could be heading home very, very soon. They were freed today after being held captive for nearly a month. An Afghan official is denying claims the kidnappers were offered money or special deals to free those hostages. All three are said to be in good shape.
And here in the United States, jurors in the Scott Peterson case can take some time off for Thanksgiving. Yesterday, the judge postponed the sentencing phase in the double-murder trial. The judge also denied defense motions for a new jury and a change of venue. Proceedings are set to resume November 30.
And the Irish rockers U2 invading New York. Yes, the band surprising fans with an impromptu performance.
More than 3,000 fans were treated to a free 45-minute concert at the base of the Brooklyn Bridge. Yesterday's show was a promotion for the group's new album which is out today, and which we heard from Toure. He says it is great, great, great.
HEMMER: Yes, that's right.
O'BRIEN: It rocks.
WALLACE: He says it's great to have another rock 'n' roll band.
HEMMER: Heck of a PR stunt, huh?
O'BRIEN: Huge PR stunt. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
HEMMER: Thanks, Kelly.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Kelly.
WALLACE: Sure.
O'BRIEN: Congressional leaders are urging President Bush to do everything he can to get intelligence reform passed before the end of the year. This past weekend two key Republicans blocked a House vote on sweeping reforms favored by the 9/11 Commission.
Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman is a sponsor of the Senate version that passed almost unanimously. He joins us from Washington, D.C. this morning.
Nice to see you, Senator. Thanks for being with us.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: Thanks, Soledad. Good to be with you.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. Do you think that the bill, in the version that it is in right now, can be saved?
LIEBERMAN: I sure hope so. I mean, this is the -- this is the bill that reflects the 9/11 Commission report.
The 9/11 Commission investigation said that no one is in charge of the American intelligence community. And as a result, people don't share information. They don't cooperate. And that's part of why 9/11 happened.
Our bill aims to put someone in charge, to force that kind of cooperation. We went through weeks of negotiations to get it where it is now.
It's different from the bill that we sponsored and passed in the Senate 96-2. And it was just shocking, and a profound disappointment when the speaker of the House, who supports the bill, didn't let it come -- excuse me -- to a vote because two powerful chairmen opposed it, even though we're convinced a majority of the members of the House were ready to vote for it. So I hope the president will step in now and get this bill that he supports in our national interest passed in December when we come back into session.
O'BRIEN: You talk about two powerful Republicans who stand in the way of the bill. It seems that, in fact, the biggest criticisms of the bill, the Senate version, come from Duncan Hunter and Jim Sensenbrenner.
LIEBERMAN: Right.
O'BRIEN: Here's what they had to say about the Senate version that came to them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: What the Senate sent over was this -- was this plan that would cut that life line between our satellites that are giving intelligence all the time to our troops, telling them where the bad guys are, what the targeting should be, what's happening, when you need to move. That would be cut or severed by the Senate position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Duncan Hunter is the House Armed Services Committee chairman. Do you think he has a point there?
LIEBERMAN: I do not. Look, I'm on the Senate Armed Services Committee. I wouldn't support this bill if I thought it would at all jeopardize America's fighting forces.
The president of the United States is the commander in chief of our armed forces. He supports this bill. He obviously wouldn't support it if he thought it would do any damage to the American military. So, you know, how can two members of the House stand up to the commander in chief and somehow say that they're going to protect the world better than the president or the rest of us are?
O'BRIEN: So that's what -- that's what -- forgive me for interrupting there, but I think you raise a good point. That's what you think it is? Because we've heard the president has pressured both of these Republicans.
So either it could be half-hearted pressure or it could be that these two are essentially thumbing their noses at the president. Which is the right option there?
LIEBERMAN: Well, everything -- I wasn't on the phone conversation, but everything that I know tells me that the president really wants this bill and asked the two members of the House, Republican members, to get in line. And I just think they don't want a change.
I think they're standing in the way of what the 9/11 Commission, the president, a majority of members of both houses know is important to our national security. I'll just say one more word about this part of it, Soledad.
The bill that is before the House from the conference is different from the Senate bill. We compromised. We tried to reach out to -- respond to the concerns of Congressman Hunter.
It's very clear that tactical military intelligence, the stuff that the war fighters on the ground depend on, is totally in the control of the secretary of defense. But the whole idea of this bill is to break the stovepipes where CIA does its thing, military does its thing, FBI does its thing.
All of them have to get together under this director to protect us. Their client is the president of the United States. And right now he's not getting the kind of intelligence on our behalf that we need in the war on terrorism.
O'BRIEN: Well, if these two members of the Congress can ignore the wishes of the president, then what does that say about the power of the Republicans in Congress?
LIEBERMAN: It's a very surprising development, particularly after the president has just been reelected. And he's asked for this as a matter of national security in the middle of a war.
It's really outrageous that they're opposing him. It obviously raises longer-term questions about whether the new Republican majorities can hold together in the House and the Senate.
But I've got to tell you that I'm an optimist. The president is coming back from his Latin America trip. He wants this bill. I can't believe we're not going to be able to pass it.
And look again, I say this, over the weekend, we had the votes. Republicans, Democrats in the House and the Senate, a majority, were ready to vote. The speaker, for internal reasons, didn't let the roll be called.
I think in the last analysis, even if Congressmen Hunter and Sensenbrenner don't change their positions, in a democracy the majority governs. And the roll will be called, the bill will be passed, the president will sign it. And we're going to be a lot safer, all of us, against terrorism.
O'BRIEN: Senator Joe Lieberman joining us this morning. You say you're an optimist. We will see.
LIEBERMAN: I am.
O'BRIEN: Thanks.
LIEBERMAN: OK. Take care.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad. This morning we're learning more about new details on a possible al Qaeda terror plot in London, similar, we are told, to the 9/11 attacks here in the U.S. Walter Rodgers watching the story from London and tracking it for us.
Walter, what have we learned about this? Good afternoon there.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, of course the British are very excited about this because the story here that initially broke was that the British security agencies had stopped and thwarted an al Qaeda plot, a copycat plot, copycat of 9/11 to hijack airliners and fly them into the Canary Wharf Towers. That's one of London's financial districts.
It of course made great headlines. Look at this: "Canary Wharf: Target."
The problem, of course, is the evidence is very, very thin on this. And as we look at this story continuing today, the British government appears to be backing further and further away from it.
Now, that did not stop one British television network from carrying the story. Also, as I say, it's made the headlines in at least two of the tabloids. But when we called the metropolitan police here in London today and asked them about the seriousness of the story, they laughed at us.
Part of the problem on a story like this is it's quoting an anonymous source. And that automatically makes it somewhat problematic.
Then you don't know when this plot was thwarted. You don't know how close it was to being executed. And there's so much you don't know about it that people are now very clearly backing away. Many of the respectable British news organizations are now backing away from the story.
Again, part of the skepticism stems from the fact that it's been announced here that Prime Minister Blair would run a reelection campaign based on the security threats, and his critics say he's scare-mongering. That has not stopped the home secretary, David Blunkett, however, from telling people as recently as two weeks ago, al Qaeda is on Britain's doorstep and the lives of Britons are threatened by terrorists -- Bill.
HEMMER: And Walter, quickly, just on this story, no arrests have been made at this point, is that correct?
RODGERS: Well, that's part of the problem with the story, Bill. They don't even tell you that.
Again, this is one of those stories which could be true. It certainly has plausibility. But there's nothing by way of evidence to corroborate the story. And as I say, I would stamp "caveat emptor" on this, let the buyer or the viewer beware, absent further evidence -- Bill. HEMMER: Walter, thanks. Walter Rodgers on the streets of London -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: A look now at the latest headlines out of Iraq this morning. U.S. Marines comb through a House in Falluja they believe was used by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's network. Troops are finding more evidence, such as this cage, to suggest that hostages were held in the House.
And relief organizations are back in Falluja for the first time since the U.S.-led assault began two weeks ago. An Iraqi convoy carrying blankets and water and first aid entered the city yesterday.
Security has been stepped up at Baghdad Airport following the discovery of a homemade bomb on a commercial flight in Iraq yesterday. Flights began just a week ago after being suspended before the Falluja offensive.
And Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi says he is confident that only a few people will boycott the January 30 election despite the continuing insurgency.
HEMMER: Back in this country now, folks in Texas now wading through high water this morning in parts of the Lone Star State again today. The rain making -- making visibility poor for drivers.
Rising muddy floodwaters continue to make walking around difficult in places like San Antonio. In the town of New Braunfels, about two dozen school children had to be rescued from their daycare center after the building was surrounded by rising water. That is a storm that has lasted there about a week.
Meanwhile, Thanksgiving Day travel could be a mess in the eastern half of the U.S., or even Thanksgiving eve, for that matter. Back to Chad on that and more.
Good morning.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Typically, Bill -- good morning -- we talk about Wednesday as the busiest travel day. People try to get to places on Wednesday, then obviously enjoy Thanksgiving. But there will be a lot of travelers on Thursday, as well. In fact, Thursday will be a significantly better day to travel than tomorrow.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: All right, Chad. Thanks.
In a moment here, back to the basket brawl from Friday night. One man with a ringside view. And we'll look at whether or not criminal charges could be next in that matter.
O'BRIEN: Also, a weekend shooting of deer hunters has claimed another victim. We've got the latest on that from Wisconsin just ahead. HEMMER: Also, as Chad was mentioning, looking to make an early getaway for Thanksgiving? What you need to know before taking to the skies or hitting the highways in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: From Auburn Hills, Michigan, now, investigators poring over this videotape from last Friday night's fight between the Detroit Pistons -- their fans, rather, and players from the Indiana Pacers. So far no charges have been filed. But earlier today I talked with one fan, Scott Mitchell, who had a ringside seat to the melee in Auburn Hills.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT MITCHELL, FAN: I saw basically what everybody else, you know -- it was just amazing at the end of the game when, you know, Ben Wallace and Artest got into it. So we were all kind of watching to see what that would turn out to be. And then there was some excitement level to that.
But the next thing you know, you know, people saw Artest jump over the scorer's table and run up into the crowd. And from our angle we really didn't see the cup come in. So we didn't know if he was just going after a heckler or what was going on. But one of those things where you think it's going to end soon and it just didn't seem to end.
HEMMER: Just kept going and going. A five-minute fight certainly can seem like a very long time when you're there in person.
Back up a little bit here. All this happened with less than a minute to play in regulation, the fourth period. But you say there was a lot going on prior to that time. What was happening between the players and the fans up to that point, Scott?
MITCHELL: The one thing my friend and I noticed was there's a guy in the front row that was really heckling Artest the whole fourth quarter. I mean, he was literally at sometimes just a foot away from Artest just saying things I couldn't repeat on the air.
And I actually remember turning to my friend saying, you know, "It would be so hard to hear that and not respond to it." And it was Artest and Stephen Jackson that this fan was heckling the whole fourth quarter.
And I don't know if that maybe was something that would instigate, you know, Artest later on. But he really put up with a lot in the fourth quarter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: That was Scott Mitchell. Says he goes about five games a year but has never seen anything even close to that atmosphere even before the fight broke out on Friday night.
No criminal charges yet, as I mentioned. But for more on the legal angle to the Friday night fight, our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, stops by now.
You've been looking into this, huh?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: I have.
HEMMER: Boy, you run the gamut, don't you?
TOOBIN: Exactly. You've got the Supreme Court, you've got Scott Peterson. The whole potpourri.
HEMMER: Let's keep it to the NBA for a moment here.
TOOBIN: OK.
HEMMER: What are the possibilities for criminal charges that you see?
TOOBIN: Well, the prosecutor spoke yesterday and he said basically you're looking at all misdemeanors, basically a simple assault and battery, with the possible exception of the person who threw the chair, which might be a felony.
HEMMER: Let me stop you there. Some slo-mo videotape. You can see the arrow, the lady (ph) who received the chair. Explain why that could be more offensive?
TOOBIN: Because the potential for harm is greater. That -- you know, being hit by a chair, you could have a very serious injury.
HEMMER: Sure.
TOOBIN: And that's how the gradations of assault work, based on, you know, throwing fists, which is essentially a bar fight and which is more or less what went on, that we all saw, which is fists and throwing drinks, that's a lesser kind of assault than throwing a chair.
HEMMER: Well, it's clear that the videotape is the best piece of evidence the prosecutors will work from.
TOOBIN: Interestingly, though, they are investigating a separate player for an incident that apparently took place off camera, which, you know...
HEMMER: Which apparently happened in the tunnel.
TOOBIN: Right. It happened doesn't mean -- just because it wasn't on camera doesn't mean it didn't happen. So that's one of the things they're looking at.
HEMMER: So if you've got the evidence that you got your nose beat in, in the tunnel underneath the Palace, then...
TOOBIN: And if you have witnesses to that, you could bring that case, too.
HEMMER: You mentioned prosecutors. Listen to the prosecutor in Oakland County talk about this yesterday here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GORCYCA, OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR: A mistaken identity won't be a justification or an excuse. And even if someone did throw water, you don't have a license or a green light to punch them. So he can claim self-defense, but that video, again, will speak for itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Well, there is the phrase of self-defense that we talked about yesterday. What is he suggesting there? You can claim it or not?
TOOBIN: Well, he's saying that he wouldn't file charges if he thought self-defense was a legitimate defense here. And it's hard to see how self-defense could work, especially since as far as we know Ron Artest was beating up the wrong guy.
Even if he was beating up the guy who threw the drink at him, I don't think a self-defense defense would work either. But just because the prosecutor says he doesn't believe it's there doesn't mean if this thing were to come to trial that a defense lawyer could raise it on Artest's behalf.
HEMMER: Could you then -- could you dive into this whole matter about the Palace being culpable, whether or not they had enough security there? Could you get into that area, or are you reaching at that point?
TOOBIN: That really wouldn't have much of an impact in a criminal case. Now, someone, if they were injured, could sue Auburn Hills, could sue the Palace, whatever is the owner of that. But, you know -- and given the way lawyers think, I wouldn't be surprised if someone were charged.
HEMMER: But if you manage a venue anywhere in this country, I'd imagine at this point you're looking in to your own security detail...
TOOBIN: Absolutely.
HEMMER: ... for any event that you hold.
TOOBIN: Well, and you remember that -- that the Palace authorities said, "Well, now we're going to step up to playoff level security for the next few games." And someone may argue that they should have had playoff level security at all times. I mean, that's the kind of thing that they'll be just talking about for some time.
HEMMER: For now, the Supreme Court can win.
TOOBIN: Exactly. You've got Ron Artest to deal with.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jeff.
TOOBIN: All right.
HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, Washington celebrates its new baseball team. But not everybody is happy about it. We'll tell you why coming up next.
Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: The baseball team in Washington unveiled a new name. There it is.
No more Expos, no more Senators, for that matter. The Washington Nationals will open the season at RFK Stadium in April.
One protester, though, tried to steal the spot light. He jumped onto the stage with a sign protesting public financing for a new stadium. Took a couple, people, too, or muscle to get him off the stage.
Another brawl to talk about. Brawls all over the news today.
HEMMER: Anarchy everywhere.
(CROSSTALK)
CAFFERTY: Of course, he would be, what, maybe a light heavyweight if he was a fighter.
O'BRIEN: Yes. He's a little...
CAFFERTY: Hasn't missed any meals.
"Question of the Day" is about a series of TV, radio and print ads unveiled yesterday by the Department of Homeland Security encouraging parents to talk to their kids about terrorism. Some experts worry that the ads could frighten kids who see or hear them. One guy at the National School Safety Center warned that it could scare kids into "feeling like the big, bad, bogeyman is going to get them at any minute."
The question then this morning is, how much should we tell kids about terrorism?
Andrew in Nashua, New Hampshire, "The Department of Homeland Security has spent the last three years getting adult Americans to be scared of the big, bad, terrorist bogeyman. If they don't start doing the same for kids they'd have no way to justify their budget."
Anonymous writes: "We need to let our children know that there are people out there who want to hurt them just because of where in the world they live. After all, what do you think the terrorists are telling their children?"
Gary writes from wherever Gary lives -- I have no idea -- "I think it depends on the age of the kids, possibly the location, meaning New York City kids more likely to experience issues about terrorism than kids in Montana. They need to know the world we live in. But as parents, it's also our job to shield them from certain things."
Doug in Bloomfield, New Jersey, "Tell children just enough to ease their concerns but not enough to frighten them. And remember they'll all building little Cafferty files of their own."
The poor things.
HEMMER: Really scared of that.
CAFFERTY: Yes. I can tell you where that leads to and it ain't pretty.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: Now, that's scary.
HEMMER: Two hours ago we were talking about this and you said as a parent you're not quite sure how to begin that discussion.
CAFFERTY: No, I'm not.
HEMMER: Because you haven't considered it or is it because it's confusing? Or is it because the language isn't right?
CAFFERTY: I think you've got to take a lot of things into consideration. How sharp is the kid you're going to have the conversation with? Where does he live? What kind of environment is he in?
How much exposure does he get to the news? Do you control his television viewing, or can he flip on the tube and see all this terrorist stuff anytime he likes? I mean, there's a whole lot of variables. And I think it's not a decision that a parent makes wisely, and that they probably heard enough of my proselytizing about that.
O'BRIEN: But we don't have to talk about terror at all.
CAFFERTY: And you've got youngsters. So, I mean, it's the kind of thing you're going to have to address at some point.
O'BRIEN: But you know what? We had the same issues in San Francisco. If there's an earthquake, where do you meet? Where does everyone go? And I think that's actually a smart conversation to...
HEMMER: But you didn't have children when you were living in San Francisco.
O'BRIEN: No, but I had Brad and sometimes -- no, I'm kidding, kidding. Joking. I'm joking.
CAFFERTY: Brad is Mr. O'Brien.
(LAUGHTER) O'BRIEN: Oh, oh.
CAFFERTY: Or Mr. Soley as they call him around the office.
O'BRIEN: Please. Please.
CAFFERTY: You started it, "I had Brad."
O'BRIEN: Now that I have four, yes, I think it's good to have a discussion with everybody about where you meet if there's some kind of emergency. That's not a bad idea.
CAFFERTY: The difference between terrorism and an earthquake, though, is one is something that you can do absolutely nothing about. It's an act of god or nature, or however you want to attribute it. Terrorism is a more sinister kind of thing. And it plays into kids' fears about monsters and stuff like that.
I don't know. It's tough stuff. We try to ask tough questions. Then we sit around fumbling for the answer, like we're doing right now.
HEMMER: In the meantime, Brad can defend for himself. I can tell you that.
CAFFERTY: Mr. O'Brien.
(LAUGHTER)
HEMMER: In a moment here we're going to get to opening bell. So stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired November 23, 2004 - 08:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Is al Qaeda plotting to fly planes into buildings in Great Britain? London's reaction to a shocking report.
Millions of Americans planning Thanksgiving trips for tomorrow. It won't be pretty.
The NBA brawl -- now prosecutors are getting an idea just how bad fans might be charged.
And the wet get wetter in Texas. Floods driving hundreds more people from the comfort of their homes on this AMERICAN MORNING.
From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everybody. Nine o'clock here in New York.
We'd like you, too, to come play again right over here on 6th Avenue. We've got time today.
O'BRIEN: Because we're ready now.
HEMMER: We missed you yesterday.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
HEMMER: We're not going to miss it this time.
O'BRIEN: Well, we didn't tell anybody. It was sort of surprise PR. And a pretty good job they did.
HEMMER: Yes. Three thousand turned out, too, underneath the Brooklyn Bridge. So we'll show you that a bit later this hour.
Among the headlines, too, President Bush and members of Congress have their work cut out for them, persuading to powerful House Republicans to go along with reforms of 9/11. We'll talk about what must be done now to get things moving. Senator Joe Lieberman our guest, a sponsor of the bill on the Senate side. We'll talk to Senator Lieberman in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Also this morning, we talk a little bit more about that basketball fight. We're going to hear from a man who was there, says he could not believe what he was seeing. Also, we'll talk to Jeff Toobin about some of the legal issues that are now raised in the pressing of charges in that fight.
HEMMER: Wonder how many times they've watched that videotape going back and forth and back and forth.
Jack Cafferty, too.
Good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: How many times do you suppose that thing's been on the air? Not just on CNN -- all over the country.
HEMMER: A lot.
CAFFERTY: And it will happen for a long time to come. They're going to have a real stain, I think, permanent long-lasting.
HEMMER: You bet.
CAFFERTY: The government's out with TV commercials urging us all to talk to our children about terrorism. Good idea, or simply a way to frighten them? Is it a concept that's too tough for them to get their arms around?
AM@CNN.com. Drop us a note. We'll read some of your letters in a few minutes.
HEMMER: All right.
To the headlines now. Kelly Wallace with us this morning here in New York.
Good morning, Kelly. Good to have you.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. And great to be here.
Good morning, everyone. A look now at other stories in the news.
Another religious leader opposing the upcoming elections in Iraq has been gunned down. The shooting comes a day after another prominent spiritual leader was killed in Mosul. Both were part of a Sunni cleric's group that have called for a boycott of the January elections. It is not clear if the two killings are connected.
In Afghanistan, three U.N. workers could be heading home very, very soon. They were freed today after being held captive for nearly a month. An Afghan official is denying claims the kidnappers were offered money or special deals to free those hostages. All three are said to be in good shape.
And here in the United States, jurors in the Scott Peterson case can take some time off for Thanksgiving. Yesterday, the judge postponed the sentencing phase in the double-murder trial. The judge also denied defense motions for a new jury and a change of venue. Proceedings are set to resume November 30.
And the Irish rockers U2 invading New York. Yes, the band surprising fans with an impromptu performance.
More than 3,000 fans were treated to a free 45-minute concert at the base of the Brooklyn Bridge. Yesterday's show was a promotion for the group's new album which is out today, and which we heard from Toure. He says it is great, great, great.
HEMMER: Yes, that's right.
O'BRIEN: It rocks.
WALLACE: He says it's great to have another rock 'n' roll band.
HEMMER: Heck of a PR stunt, huh?
O'BRIEN: Huge PR stunt. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.
HEMMER: Thanks, Kelly.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Kelly.
WALLACE: Sure.
O'BRIEN: Congressional leaders are urging President Bush to do everything he can to get intelligence reform passed before the end of the year. This past weekend two key Republicans blocked a House vote on sweeping reforms favored by the 9/11 Commission.
Connecticut Senator Joe Lieberman is a sponsor of the Senate version that passed almost unanimously. He joins us from Washington, D.C. this morning.
Nice to see you, Senator. Thanks for being with us.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: Thanks, Soledad. Good to be with you.
O'BRIEN: Thank you very much. Do you think that the bill, in the version that it is in right now, can be saved?
LIEBERMAN: I sure hope so. I mean, this is the -- this is the bill that reflects the 9/11 Commission report.
The 9/11 Commission investigation said that no one is in charge of the American intelligence community. And as a result, people don't share information. They don't cooperate. And that's part of why 9/11 happened.
Our bill aims to put someone in charge, to force that kind of cooperation. We went through weeks of negotiations to get it where it is now.
It's different from the bill that we sponsored and passed in the Senate 96-2. And it was just shocking, and a profound disappointment when the speaker of the House, who supports the bill, didn't let it come -- excuse me -- to a vote because two powerful chairmen opposed it, even though we're convinced a majority of the members of the House were ready to vote for it. So I hope the president will step in now and get this bill that he supports in our national interest passed in December when we come back into session.
O'BRIEN: You talk about two powerful Republicans who stand in the way of the bill. It seems that, in fact, the biggest criticisms of the bill, the Senate version, come from Duncan Hunter and Jim Sensenbrenner.
LIEBERMAN: Right.
O'BRIEN: Here's what they had to say about the Senate version that came to them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: What the Senate sent over was this -- was this plan that would cut that life line between our satellites that are giving intelligence all the time to our troops, telling them where the bad guys are, what the targeting should be, what's happening, when you need to move. That would be cut or severed by the Senate position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Duncan Hunter is the House Armed Services Committee chairman. Do you think he has a point there?
LIEBERMAN: I do not. Look, I'm on the Senate Armed Services Committee. I wouldn't support this bill if I thought it would at all jeopardize America's fighting forces.
The president of the United States is the commander in chief of our armed forces. He supports this bill. He obviously wouldn't support it if he thought it would do any damage to the American military. So, you know, how can two members of the House stand up to the commander in chief and somehow say that they're going to protect the world better than the president or the rest of us are?
O'BRIEN: So that's what -- that's what -- forgive me for interrupting there, but I think you raise a good point. That's what you think it is? Because we've heard the president has pressured both of these Republicans.
So either it could be half-hearted pressure or it could be that these two are essentially thumbing their noses at the president. Which is the right option there?
LIEBERMAN: Well, everything -- I wasn't on the phone conversation, but everything that I know tells me that the president really wants this bill and asked the two members of the House, Republican members, to get in line. And I just think they don't want a change.
I think they're standing in the way of what the 9/11 Commission, the president, a majority of members of both houses know is important to our national security. I'll just say one more word about this part of it, Soledad.
The bill that is before the House from the conference is different from the Senate bill. We compromised. We tried to reach out to -- respond to the concerns of Congressman Hunter.
It's very clear that tactical military intelligence, the stuff that the war fighters on the ground depend on, is totally in the control of the secretary of defense. But the whole idea of this bill is to break the stovepipes where CIA does its thing, military does its thing, FBI does its thing.
All of them have to get together under this director to protect us. Their client is the president of the United States. And right now he's not getting the kind of intelligence on our behalf that we need in the war on terrorism.
O'BRIEN: Well, if these two members of the Congress can ignore the wishes of the president, then what does that say about the power of the Republicans in Congress?
LIEBERMAN: It's a very surprising development, particularly after the president has just been reelected. And he's asked for this as a matter of national security in the middle of a war.
It's really outrageous that they're opposing him. It obviously raises longer-term questions about whether the new Republican majorities can hold together in the House and the Senate.
But I've got to tell you that I'm an optimist. The president is coming back from his Latin America trip. He wants this bill. I can't believe we're not going to be able to pass it.
And look again, I say this, over the weekend, we had the votes. Republicans, Democrats in the House and the Senate, a majority, were ready to vote. The speaker, for internal reasons, didn't let the roll be called.
I think in the last analysis, even if Congressmen Hunter and Sensenbrenner don't change their positions, in a democracy the majority governs. And the roll will be called, the bill will be passed, the president will sign it. And we're going to be a lot safer, all of us, against terrorism.
O'BRIEN: Senator Joe Lieberman joining us this morning. You say you're an optimist. We will see.
LIEBERMAN: I am.
O'BRIEN: Thanks.
LIEBERMAN: OK. Take care.
O'BRIEN: Bill.
HEMMER: All right, Soledad. This morning we're learning more about new details on a possible al Qaeda terror plot in London, similar, we are told, to the 9/11 attacks here in the U.S. Walter Rodgers watching the story from London and tracking it for us.
Walter, what have we learned about this? Good afternoon there.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, of course the British are very excited about this because the story here that initially broke was that the British security agencies had stopped and thwarted an al Qaeda plot, a copycat plot, copycat of 9/11 to hijack airliners and fly them into the Canary Wharf Towers. That's one of London's financial districts.
It of course made great headlines. Look at this: "Canary Wharf: Target."
The problem, of course, is the evidence is very, very thin on this. And as we look at this story continuing today, the British government appears to be backing further and further away from it.
Now, that did not stop one British television network from carrying the story. Also, as I say, it's made the headlines in at least two of the tabloids. But when we called the metropolitan police here in London today and asked them about the seriousness of the story, they laughed at us.
Part of the problem on a story like this is it's quoting an anonymous source. And that automatically makes it somewhat problematic.
Then you don't know when this plot was thwarted. You don't know how close it was to being executed. And there's so much you don't know about it that people are now very clearly backing away. Many of the respectable British news organizations are now backing away from the story.
Again, part of the skepticism stems from the fact that it's been announced here that Prime Minister Blair would run a reelection campaign based on the security threats, and his critics say he's scare-mongering. That has not stopped the home secretary, David Blunkett, however, from telling people as recently as two weeks ago, al Qaeda is on Britain's doorstep and the lives of Britons are threatened by terrorists -- Bill.
HEMMER: And Walter, quickly, just on this story, no arrests have been made at this point, is that correct?
RODGERS: Well, that's part of the problem with the story, Bill. They don't even tell you that.
Again, this is one of those stories which could be true. It certainly has plausibility. But there's nothing by way of evidence to corroborate the story. And as I say, I would stamp "caveat emptor" on this, let the buyer or the viewer beware, absent further evidence -- Bill. HEMMER: Walter, thanks. Walter Rodgers on the streets of London -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: A look now at the latest headlines out of Iraq this morning. U.S. Marines comb through a House in Falluja they believe was used by Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's network. Troops are finding more evidence, such as this cage, to suggest that hostages were held in the House.
And relief organizations are back in Falluja for the first time since the U.S.-led assault began two weeks ago. An Iraqi convoy carrying blankets and water and first aid entered the city yesterday.
Security has been stepped up at Baghdad Airport following the discovery of a homemade bomb on a commercial flight in Iraq yesterday. Flights began just a week ago after being suspended before the Falluja offensive.
And Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi says he is confident that only a few people will boycott the January 30 election despite the continuing insurgency.
HEMMER: Back in this country now, folks in Texas now wading through high water this morning in parts of the Lone Star State again today. The rain making -- making visibility poor for drivers.
Rising muddy floodwaters continue to make walking around difficult in places like San Antonio. In the town of New Braunfels, about two dozen school children had to be rescued from their daycare center after the building was surrounded by rising water. That is a storm that has lasted there about a week.
Meanwhile, Thanksgiving Day travel could be a mess in the eastern half of the U.S., or even Thanksgiving eve, for that matter. Back to Chad on that and more.
Good morning.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Typically, Bill -- good morning -- we talk about Wednesday as the busiest travel day. People try to get to places on Wednesday, then obviously enjoy Thanksgiving. But there will be a lot of travelers on Thursday, as well. In fact, Thursday will be a significantly better day to travel than tomorrow.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: All right, Chad. Thanks.
In a moment here, back to the basket brawl from Friday night. One man with a ringside view. And we'll look at whether or not criminal charges could be next in that matter.
O'BRIEN: Also, a weekend shooting of deer hunters has claimed another victim. We've got the latest on that from Wisconsin just ahead. HEMMER: Also, as Chad was mentioning, looking to make an early getaway for Thanksgiving? What you need to know before taking to the skies or hitting the highways in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: From Auburn Hills, Michigan, now, investigators poring over this videotape from last Friday night's fight between the Detroit Pistons -- their fans, rather, and players from the Indiana Pacers. So far no charges have been filed. But earlier today I talked with one fan, Scott Mitchell, who had a ringside seat to the melee in Auburn Hills.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT MITCHELL, FAN: I saw basically what everybody else, you know -- it was just amazing at the end of the game when, you know, Ben Wallace and Artest got into it. So we were all kind of watching to see what that would turn out to be. And then there was some excitement level to that.
But the next thing you know, you know, people saw Artest jump over the scorer's table and run up into the crowd. And from our angle we really didn't see the cup come in. So we didn't know if he was just going after a heckler or what was going on. But one of those things where you think it's going to end soon and it just didn't seem to end.
HEMMER: Just kept going and going. A five-minute fight certainly can seem like a very long time when you're there in person.
Back up a little bit here. All this happened with less than a minute to play in regulation, the fourth period. But you say there was a lot going on prior to that time. What was happening between the players and the fans up to that point, Scott?
MITCHELL: The one thing my friend and I noticed was there's a guy in the front row that was really heckling Artest the whole fourth quarter. I mean, he was literally at sometimes just a foot away from Artest just saying things I couldn't repeat on the air.
And I actually remember turning to my friend saying, you know, "It would be so hard to hear that and not respond to it." And it was Artest and Stephen Jackson that this fan was heckling the whole fourth quarter.
And I don't know if that maybe was something that would instigate, you know, Artest later on. But he really put up with a lot in the fourth quarter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: That was Scott Mitchell. Says he goes about five games a year but has never seen anything even close to that atmosphere even before the fight broke out on Friday night.
No criminal charges yet, as I mentioned. But for more on the legal angle to the Friday night fight, our senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, stops by now.
You've been looking into this, huh?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: I have.
HEMMER: Boy, you run the gamut, don't you?
TOOBIN: Exactly. You've got the Supreme Court, you've got Scott Peterson. The whole potpourri.
HEMMER: Let's keep it to the NBA for a moment here.
TOOBIN: OK.
HEMMER: What are the possibilities for criminal charges that you see?
TOOBIN: Well, the prosecutor spoke yesterday and he said basically you're looking at all misdemeanors, basically a simple assault and battery, with the possible exception of the person who threw the chair, which might be a felony.
HEMMER: Let me stop you there. Some slo-mo videotape. You can see the arrow, the lady (ph) who received the chair. Explain why that could be more offensive?
TOOBIN: Because the potential for harm is greater. That -- you know, being hit by a chair, you could have a very serious injury.
HEMMER: Sure.
TOOBIN: And that's how the gradations of assault work, based on, you know, throwing fists, which is essentially a bar fight and which is more or less what went on, that we all saw, which is fists and throwing drinks, that's a lesser kind of assault than throwing a chair.
HEMMER: Well, it's clear that the videotape is the best piece of evidence the prosecutors will work from.
TOOBIN: Interestingly, though, they are investigating a separate player for an incident that apparently took place off camera, which, you know...
HEMMER: Which apparently happened in the tunnel.
TOOBIN: Right. It happened doesn't mean -- just because it wasn't on camera doesn't mean it didn't happen. So that's one of the things they're looking at.
HEMMER: So if you've got the evidence that you got your nose beat in, in the tunnel underneath the Palace, then...
TOOBIN: And if you have witnesses to that, you could bring that case, too.
HEMMER: You mentioned prosecutors. Listen to the prosecutor in Oakland County talk about this yesterday here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GORCYCA, OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR: A mistaken identity won't be a justification or an excuse. And even if someone did throw water, you don't have a license or a green light to punch them. So he can claim self-defense, but that video, again, will speak for itself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Well, there is the phrase of self-defense that we talked about yesterday. What is he suggesting there? You can claim it or not?
TOOBIN: Well, he's saying that he wouldn't file charges if he thought self-defense was a legitimate defense here. And it's hard to see how self-defense could work, especially since as far as we know Ron Artest was beating up the wrong guy.
Even if he was beating up the guy who threw the drink at him, I don't think a self-defense defense would work either. But just because the prosecutor says he doesn't believe it's there doesn't mean if this thing were to come to trial that a defense lawyer could raise it on Artest's behalf.
HEMMER: Could you then -- could you dive into this whole matter about the Palace being culpable, whether or not they had enough security there? Could you get into that area, or are you reaching at that point?
TOOBIN: That really wouldn't have much of an impact in a criminal case. Now, someone, if they were injured, could sue Auburn Hills, could sue the Palace, whatever is the owner of that. But, you know -- and given the way lawyers think, I wouldn't be surprised if someone were charged.
HEMMER: But if you manage a venue anywhere in this country, I'd imagine at this point you're looking in to your own security detail...
TOOBIN: Absolutely.
HEMMER: ... for any event that you hold.
TOOBIN: Well, and you remember that -- that the Palace authorities said, "Well, now we're going to step up to playoff level security for the next few games." And someone may argue that they should have had playoff level security at all times. I mean, that's the kind of thing that they'll be just talking about for some time.
HEMMER: For now, the Supreme Court can win.
TOOBIN: Exactly. You've got Ron Artest to deal with.
HEMMER: Thank you, Jeff.
TOOBIN: All right.
HEMMER: All right -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Still to come this morning, Washington celebrates its new baseball team. But not everybody is happy about it. We'll tell you why coming up next.
Stay with us. You're watching AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: The baseball team in Washington unveiled a new name. There it is.
No more Expos, no more Senators, for that matter. The Washington Nationals will open the season at RFK Stadium in April.
One protester, though, tried to steal the spot light. He jumped onto the stage with a sign protesting public financing for a new stadium. Took a couple, people, too, or muscle to get him off the stage.
Another brawl to talk about. Brawls all over the news today.
HEMMER: Anarchy everywhere.
(CROSSTALK)
CAFFERTY: Of course, he would be, what, maybe a light heavyweight if he was a fighter.
O'BRIEN: Yes. He's a little...
CAFFERTY: Hasn't missed any meals.
"Question of the Day" is about a series of TV, radio and print ads unveiled yesterday by the Department of Homeland Security encouraging parents to talk to their kids about terrorism. Some experts worry that the ads could frighten kids who see or hear them. One guy at the National School Safety Center warned that it could scare kids into "feeling like the big, bad, bogeyman is going to get them at any minute."
The question then this morning is, how much should we tell kids about terrorism?
Andrew in Nashua, New Hampshire, "The Department of Homeland Security has spent the last three years getting adult Americans to be scared of the big, bad, terrorist bogeyman. If they don't start doing the same for kids they'd have no way to justify their budget."
Anonymous writes: "We need to let our children know that there are people out there who want to hurt them just because of where in the world they live. After all, what do you think the terrorists are telling their children?"
Gary writes from wherever Gary lives -- I have no idea -- "I think it depends on the age of the kids, possibly the location, meaning New York City kids more likely to experience issues about terrorism than kids in Montana. They need to know the world we live in. But as parents, it's also our job to shield them from certain things."
Doug in Bloomfield, New Jersey, "Tell children just enough to ease their concerns but not enough to frighten them. And remember they'll all building little Cafferty files of their own."
The poor things.
HEMMER: Really scared of that.
CAFFERTY: Yes. I can tell you where that leads to and it ain't pretty.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: Now, that's scary.
HEMMER: Two hours ago we were talking about this and you said as a parent you're not quite sure how to begin that discussion.
CAFFERTY: No, I'm not.
HEMMER: Because you haven't considered it or is it because it's confusing? Or is it because the language isn't right?
CAFFERTY: I think you've got to take a lot of things into consideration. How sharp is the kid you're going to have the conversation with? Where does he live? What kind of environment is he in?
How much exposure does he get to the news? Do you control his television viewing, or can he flip on the tube and see all this terrorist stuff anytime he likes? I mean, there's a whole lot of variables. And I think it's not a decision that a parent makes wisely, and that they probably heard enough of my proselytizing about that.
O'BRIEN: But we don't have to talk about terror at all.
CAFFERTY: And you've got youngsters. So, I mean, it's the kind of thing you're going to have to address at some point.
O'BRIEN: But you know what? We had the same issues in San Francisco. If there's an earthquake, where do you meet? Where does everyone go? And I think that's actually a smart conversation to...
HEMMER: But you didn't have children when you were living in San Francisco.
O'BRIEN: No, but I had Brad and sometimes -- no, I'm kidding, kidding. Joking. I'm joking.
CAFFERTY: Brad is Mr. O'Brien.
(LAUGHTER) O'BRIEN: Oh, oh.
CAFFERTY: Or Mr. Soley as they call him around the office.
O'BRIEN: Please. Please.
CAFFERTY: You started it, "I had Brad."
O'BRIEN: Now that I have four, yes, I think it's good to have a discussion with everybody about where you meet if there's some kind of emergency. That's not a bad idea.
CAFFERTY: The difference between terrorism and an earthquake, though, is one is something that you can do absolutely nothing about. It's an act of god or nature, or however you want to attribute it. Terrorism is a more sinister kind of thing. And it plays into kids' fears about monsters and stuff like that.
I don't know. It's tough stuff. We try to ask tough questions. Then we sit around fumbling for the answer, like we're doing right now.
HEMMER: In the meantime, Brad can defend for himself. I can tell you that.
CAFFERTY: Mr. O'Brien.
(LAUGHTER)
HEMMER: In a moment here we're going to get to opening bell. So stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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