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American Morning

Bush Pushes for Intelligence Study; Friend of Wisconsin Shooting Victims Speaks Out

Aired November 23, 2004 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome everybody. Some of the news that's making headlines this morning: the relationship between the CIA and the Pentagon could be changing on a number of fronts. A report this morning from Barbara Starr, talk about that, especially the special ops troops.

Also this morning, we're looking at the 9/11 reforms that are now stalled in Congress. We'll talk a little bit later about whether the president can use his force to get them moving again.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Also from Iraq today, one of the major headlines: two Sunni clerics in Iraq now gunned down in two days. We'll look at who might be behind that and how Iraqi elections figure into those killings.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Cafferty, good morning.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You know, it just occurs to me, the insurgents may be dealing themselves a bad hand. They go around killing those clerics over there, how long is it going to be before ordinary Iraqis say all right, we've had enough.

HEMMER: This is turned around the other way now. These are Sunnis, as opposed to Shiites. Which changes the game a little bit.

O'BRIEN: They didn't want the elections, right? The ones who were killed.

CAFFERTY: You start killing religious leaders, that's a different equation.

Coming up in "The Cafferty File," we'll tell you why 20- somethings are more interested in fake news than in real news. Hey, some mornings I agree with you.

And a woman who filed a complaint and exposed her dirty laundry to the police. This woman has got a lot of stuff on order that's lost in transit. You'll see what I mean when we get there.

HEMMER: Installation required. Thanks, Jack.

O'BRIEN: Let's turn now to the headlines. Kelly Wallace is at our news desk this morning. Good morning. KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Always a tough act to follow. Jack Cafferty. Always. Good morning again, everyone. Here are some stories "Now in the News."

Secretary of State Colin Powell speaking in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, within the past half hour. He is attending a conference in which international leaders are discussing the future of Iraq. Secretary Powell talked about the importance of the upcoming elections.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: To provide this help, all at today's conference pledge to support national reconciliation through dialogue and democratic participation. All of us will encourage Iraqis - all Iraqis -- to organize themselves, to participate, and to vote in the forthcoming election. We must support the political process as the sole path to reconciliation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And those elections in Iraq are set for January 30th.

British security services reportedly prevented al Qaeda from attacking two high profile targets. According to British media reports, the terrorist group had planned a September 11th-style attack at Heathrow Airport and in London's financial district. It is not clear how close the plans came to being carried out. No official statement yet about the reports.

And in Afghanistan, the hostage ordeal is over for three U.N. election workers who were held in the country. A Taliban splinter group released a video earlier this month, showing the three pleading for their lives. An Afghan official that says the hostages were released today without any ransom or special deals. The three are said to be in good health and awaiting their trips back home. Great news for them and their families on this morning.

HEMMER: What a relief, too.

WALLACE: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: All right, Kelly, thanks.

Information this morning on a possible realignment of some of the country's elite intelligence and paramilitary operations. The change could fall in line with the 9/11 panel recommendations, but go against stances that some administration officials have taken in the past. CNN'S Barbara Starr joins us from the Pentagon this morning.

Barbara, good morning. And what have you learned?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad. Well, we have now confirmed that President Bush has asked the CIA and the Pentagon to undertake a 90-day study to look at the feasibility of shifting paramilitary operations from the CIA to the Pentagon. These are the type of very secret, covert paramilitary operations that the CIA has specialized in. The type of thing going on now, where they are in Pakistan, along the Afghan border, looking for Osama bin Laden.

Now, the Pentagon is not too happy about this idea, at least in the past. They have said that they do military work very differently than the CIA. But this was one of the recommendations in the 9/11 Commission, to shift it all over to the Pentagon, and apparently, the study is going to look at it -- look at the feasibility of it.

And what sources here tell us is they want to demonstrate that they're taking the 9/11 recommendations seriously, but no indication yet that this is actually going to happen -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you a quick question about the stalled intelligence reform. What is happening with the efforts to create that national intelligence director?

STARR: Well, Soledad, that is the unspoken topic number one just about in all 17.5 miles of Pentagon corridors right now. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, have been in the past very publicly opposed to that key recommendation that apparently made the bill go down in flames over the weekend.

That is shifting military intelligence capabilities, requirements, operations from the Pentagon over to a national intelligence director. This focused on communications and satellites. Their concern was if it went to a national intelligence director, that it would slow down intelligence to the battlefield. That apparently made that bill go down in flames.

But Secretary Rumsfeld and General Myers have been very quiet about it over the last several days. Spokesmen for both of them say they continue to support intelligence reform. Spokesmen for both of them say they have not been involved in the last several days of negotiations on Capitol Hill. But no one yet is saying that either man has withdrawn their objections. So, it's going to be very interesting over the next several days to see how this sorts out. Sources here still trying to figure out how to play all of this -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us. Barbara, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: Soledad, to this point, no criminal charges have been filed after Friday night's fight between fans and players from the Indiana Pacers and the Detroit Pistons. Authorities in Michigan have been interviewing those injured in the brawl and say since injuries were minor, any charges would be limited to assault and battery, both considered misdemeanors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GORCYCA, OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Everyone involved in this altercation will be held accountable, regardless of their status as a player or a fan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: As they continue their investigation there in Oakland County, as for the cup-throwing incident, police say John Green was the fan responsible for hitting Indiana forward Ron Artest in the chest. Green yesterday denies that he did that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN GREEN, DETROIT PISTONS FAN: No comment right now. I'm not going anywhere. The police know where I live. I've talked to them already. I'm not, you know, I'm not going anywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Greg Anthony's an ESPN basketball analyst, also a former NBA player. Lives here in New York, works up the road in Connecticut. Good morning, nice to see you, Greg.

GREG ANTHONY, ESPN BASKETBALL ANALYST: Good morning.

HEMMER: You were on last night, on a number of programs actually, including CNN with Paula Zahn. And part of the point that you were making -- you say the brawl is unfortunate. On the record for that. But it's also a powerful symbol of our society. Explain how you see that.

ANTHONY: Yes, I think culturally, we've become very accepting, somewhat insensitive to this type of behavior, also promoting it. I mean, if you look at where we've gone in terms of public television, in terms of promoting sex and violence, the video games, all these things have a direct impact on the mindsets and the mentality of not just the athletes but those who go out and watch these athletes perform.

And therefore, it should not totally be a shock to see people react in a manner as we saw Friday night, especially when, from an emotional standpoint, you reach your boiling point in terms of what you can handle. And that's the scenario that played out Friday night.

HEMMER: But the thing that shocked everybody, Greg, is that we've never seen an all-out brawl like this at an NBA game, not just on the court, but the stands.

ANTHONY: Well, again, the all-out brawl on the court was not uncommon, from the standpoint that you have people who get very intense and very passionate about what they do at that level. You know, the average person has never been to that level emotionally, in terms of what it takes...

HEMMER: Between the players, I agree with you.

ANTHONY: That's right. But the difference in this case was that -- again, if you watch the video closely, you'll see that this entire ordeal, for the most part, had been squashed. The officials, security had done a good job of calming it down. And then there was someone who incited it by tossing something on someone who had tried to show restraint throughout this entire ordeal and not retaliate. And at that point, that person, Ron Artest, had reached his boiling point.

And as I said before, you don't condone that type of activity. He was wrong and he will be penalized, as he has been already. But, we need to talk about what provoked it. You know, the provocation was there from a fan's perspective. And everyone's saying, you know what, he just tossed a beer in his face. Well, it's not just that the beer was tossed.

It's -- you have to put it in the context of someone who was just in a heated altercation who is not going to be emotionally of sound mind at that time and therefore, their reaction may not be as rational as say, you and I would be as we're sitting here very calm, cool and collected.

HEMMER: We had -- Charles Barkley was here on our program yesterday and very strong opinions on this. He has strong opinions about just about everything. And you spoke to him at great length yesterday, correct?

Is there a higher standard that has to be employed by a celebrity, by a star, by a multi-million dollar athlete, to say you know what, as much as I want to go in that stands and kick the crap out of that guy, I can't do that.

ANTHONY: You know what I'd say? I won't even necessarily say there is a higher standard. There are higher ramifications and repercussions for that person. But that person, regardless of who they are, is still a human being and still have the same types of responses and reactions from emotional standpoints, when provoked, that you or I or the average person on the street would have.

And that's what is hard for a lot of people to understand. But that is a reality. These are still -- this guy is 25 years old. And, if put in that situation enough times, and I'm speaking of a general person, they could find themselves maybe losing control for that instant.

And as I've said, you know what, I've been involved in brawls. I've been there. And you know what, had I been in his situation, I could see maybe myself reacting in a similar way. However...

HEMMER: Now this was 1994, that involved you, right?

ANTHONY: Exactly. Exactly. And I could see that. But, at the same token, it wouldn't make it right. It wouldn't have made it right, had I reacted the same way. And you know what, the ramifications would have been severe, the repercussions, as was in the case in this scenario as it played out by the commissioner. You know, the punishment was definitely severe.

But the real issue beyond that, from a bigger perspective, is how are we going to harness all of this emotion that's brought about also by fans. There's a lot of venom spitting. I leave a lot of people with this. If you work in corporate America -- and I was subjected to racial slurs when I played on a regular basis -- if those things were used in corporate America, someone would either be charged criminally, civilly -- they'd lose their job. But for some reason, athletes are supposed to be subjected to this and it's supposed to be OK.

HEMMER: Well thought out. Good to see you. Greg Anthony. Nice to chat with you -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: In Florida, a pair of strangers worked together to save a man from drowning. Two men separately spotted a 78-year-old man who accidentally driven into a canal on Sunday. They both dove in to rescue him. One was able to pry open the car door, while the other ducked under the rising water to undo the seatbelt and then pull the driver out.

And another dramatic water rescue, this one in Arizona. A woman was trying to cross a creek yesterday afternoon when she was carried away by the floodwaters. The woman managed to hold on to a tree for about an hour -- you can see her there -- before a swift water rescue team was able to get to her. She was taken to a hospital.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: In a moment here, can being overweight lead to dementia? A question for Sanjay Gupta for the moment. Looking at important new studies on that.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, a weekend shooting of deer hunters claims another victim in Wisconsin. This morning, we talk to the man who knew three of the victims about just how the community is coping now.

HEMMER: Also, who is to blame now for the failure to pass intelligence reform? We'll hear from both sides of the issue. And does it stand a chance in December of passing? Back in a moment after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Another hunter has died after a weekend shooting rampage in rural Wisconsin. The death toll now stands at six. 36- year-old Chai Vang was arrested for allegedly opening fire at a group of hunters who say Vang was trespassing on private property. It happened in a small, tight-knit community in Sawyer County in Wisconsin. Dale Olsen is the chairman of the town of Meteor. He also knows three of the victims well.

Nice to see you, Dale. Thanks for being with us. What a horrific event to happen in a very small town. You knew, as we mentioned, three of the victims. Just -- how's everybody coping today?

DALE OLSEN, METEOR TOWNSHIP CHAIRMAN: It seems like people are still in just a state of shock. It's something that -- my first words are things like this just don't happen here.

O'BRIEN: The suspect, as we mentioned, is under arrest. Are there any more details about exactly what happened, outside of what we know, which was he was in a tree stand that he wasn't supposed to be in, he came down and the next thing you know, he was opening fire. Was there any more details on what exactly happened?

OLSEN: No details that I've been made aware of. I did attend the press conference yesterday. We just can't seem to comprehend why anybody would do anything like this. So I guess the details are a bit irrelevant to most of us that are from the area.

O'BRIEN: There have been reports of tensions, among the Hmong community, the Asian community in that area, and the white hunters as well. Any indication that that might have played a role in this shooting?

OLSEN: I've talked to dozens and possibly 100 people. And I have not yet heard one person who said anything related to anything race related. I've been asked that question before. I think we have to remember that once this man pulled the trigger, he was no longer a hunter, he was no longer an Asian American, he was no longer a father. He was a killer. And when that happens, little things like that just don't seem to make a difference.

O'BRIEN: The area, community, a little over 8,000 people live there. How do you come to terms with such devastation in such a small population? What's the next step for you?

OLSEN: The town of Meteor here is 170 people. And most of the victims are from the Rice Lake area, which is considerably larger than here. But we're still a very close-knit community in northern Wisconsin. And I think that community support and faith in God will help get people through that.

O'BRIEN: Before I let you go, I want you to tell me a little bit about two of the three victims that you know. One has survived, but the other two did not. They were close friends of yours. And I know at the time you also want to respect their family's privacy. But what can you tell us about them?

OLSEN: Really, I knew one fairly well. Mr. Drew -- Denny -- who passed away now. I had worked with him. And he was an avid sportsman and was the type of person -- we could always sit down and share a story. Wisconsin, of course, has a huge deer hunting tradition. It seems like people will go to parties in July and August following the deer season and that's what the men talk about is, what they saw and what they harvested, and things like that.

These are good people, good community residents. And again, the family wishes to not make any statements. And I think we should respect that right.

O'BRIEN: Dale Olsen is the chairman of the town of Meteor. Thanks for talking with us. We certainly appreciate it.

OLSEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Goodbye.

HEMMER: Almost 20 minutes past the hour. Soledad, at the moment here, just weeks after the election 2004, how do Americans feel about the president today? We have the numbers -- new numbers to talk about coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Among the Americans that may be headed to Iraq soon could be a 72-year-old great-grandmother living in Oklahoma. Lena Haddox, a military wife of 30 years, getting ready to be sent to Iraq as a civilian defense worker. The grandmother of eight, great-grandma of three, says she volunteered because she wants to do something for her country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LENA HADDOX, HEADED TO IRAQ: I feel good about going. I'm not scared. Of course, I know there'll be times I will be scared, but I'll get over it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Haddox is going through a medical check-up before a six month tour and she'll have a week of training before flying to Germany and then eventually Iraq. How about that?

CAFFERTY: She looks good.

HEMMER: 72.

O'BRIEN: But a week of training doesn't seem like a lot.

CAFFERTY: Well, I mean, she's not going to be clearing out Falluja when she gets over there.

O'BRIEN: She's a great-grandma. I'm worried about her.

CAFFERTY: The question of the day, boys and girls, is about these TV ads and radio ads and print ads that the Department of Homeland Security has come up with, encouraging parents to talk to their kids about terrorism. Some experts worry that the ads could frighten kids who see or hear them.

Ronald Stevens, the National School Safety Center, warned that this may scare kids into "feeling like the big, bad bogeyman's going to get them at any moment." The question is this: How much should you tell your children about terrorism?

Dominic in Gulfport, Mississippi, says, "Not a thing. CNN covers all the violence over and over and over and over and over and over."

Kat in Huntsville, Alabama: "No, Jack, I don't think it's a good idea to talk to kids about terrorism. My grandson is 9 years old and would not be able to handle it. He worries already about people dying." Charlie in Windsor Locks, Connecticut, writes, "We should explain to our children what terrorism is about and why we need to protect ourselves and that people will do us harm. Then we should let them watch an NBA game for a demonstration."

And Rex weighs in from Toronto in reference to some earlier segments in the program: "Jack's talking about the birds and the bees and he's bringing his nuts to work tomorrow and Soledad is wearing leather. Has the format changed or are you guys going for a different demographic?"

HEMMER: We take all viewers, Rex.

CAFFERTY: That's right. We're not proud, obviously.

HEMMER: They all count.

You mentioned the NBA brawl. Here's what Leno had to say about it -- his take last night, "Late Night."

(START VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, TONIGHT SHOW HOST: U.S. forces have taken Falluja. You hear that? Experts say it's going to be hard to keep Iraq's insurgents from going after people in other cities. And it will be hard. We can't even keep the Indiana Pacers from going after people. This is probably the first sporting event in history where the nosebleed seats were in the front.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That was funny. Still to come this morning, a Sunni Muslim cleric assassinated in Iraq. It's the second such killing in as many days. We're going to take you live to Baghdad, just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired November 23, 2004 - 08:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome everybody. Some of the news that's making headlines this morning: the relationship between the CIA and the Pentagon could be changing on a number of fronts. A report this morning from Barbara Starr, talk about that, especially the special ops troops.

Also this morning, we're looking at the 9/11 reforms that are now stalled in Congress. We'll talk a little bit later about whether the president can use his force to get them moving again.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Also from Iraq today, one of the major headlines: two Sunni clerics in Iraq now gunned down in two days. We'll look at who might be behind that and how Iraqi elections figure into those killings.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Cafferty, good morning.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You know, it just occurs to me, the insurgents may be dealing themselves a bad hand. They go around killing those clerics over there, how long is it going to be before ordinary Iraqis say all right, we've had enough.

HEMMER: This is turned around the other way now. These are Sunnis, as opposed to Shiites. Which changes the game a little bit.

O'BRIEN: They didn't want the elections, right? The ones who were killed.

CAFFERTY: You start killing religious leaders, that's a different equation.

Coming up in "The Cafferty File," we'll tell you why 20- somethings are more interested in fake news than in real news. Hey, some mornings I agree with you.

And a woman who filed a complaint and exposed her dirty laundry to the police. This woman has got a lot of stuff on order that's lost in transit. You'll see what I mean when we get there.

HEMMER: Installation required. Thanks, Jack.

O'BRIEN: Let's turn now to the headlines. Kelly Wallace is at our news desk this morning. Good morning. KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Always a tough act to follow. Jack Cafferty. Always. Good morning again, everyone. Here are some stories "Now in the News."

Secretary of State Colin Powell speaking in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, within the past half hour. He is attending a conference in which international leaders are discussing the future of Iraq. Secretary Powell talked about the importance of the upcoming elections.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: To provide this help, all at today's conference pledge to support national reconciliation through dialogue and democratic participation. All of us will encourage Iraqis - all Iraqis -- to organize themselves, to participate, and to vote in the forthcoming election. We must support the political process as the sole path to reconciliation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And those elections in Iraq are set for January 30th.

British security services reportedly prevented al Qaeda from attacking two high profile targets. According to British media reports, the terrorist group had planned a September 11th-style attack at Heathrow Airport and in London's financial district. It is not clear how close the plans came to being carried out. No official statement yet about the reports.

And in Afghanistan, the hostage ordeal is over for three U.N. election workers who were held in the country. A Taliban splinter group released a video earlier this month, showing the three pleading for their lives. An Afghan official that says the hostages were released today without any ransom or special deals. The three are said to be in good health and awaiting their trips back home. Great news for them and their families on this morning.

HEMMER: What a relief, too.

WALLACE: Absolutely.

O'BRIEN: All right, Kelly, thanks.

Information this morning on a possible realignment of some of the country's elite intelligence and paramilitary operations. The change could fall in line with the 9/11 panel recommendations, but go against stances that some administration officials have taken in the past. CNN'S Barbara Starr joins us from the Pentagon this morning.

Barbara, good morning. And what have you learned?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Soledad. Well, we have now confirmed that President Bush has asked the CIA and the Pentagon to undertake a 90-day study to look at the feasibility of shifting paramilitary operations from the CIA to the Pentagon. These are the type of very secret, covert paramilitary operations that the CIA has specialized in. The type of thing going on now, where they are in Pakistan, along the Afghan border, looking for Osama bin Laden.

Now, the Pentagon is not too happy about this idea, at least in the past. They have said that they do military work very differently than the CIA. But this was one of the recommendations in the 9/11 Commission, to shift it all over to the Pentagon, and apparently, the study is going to look at it -- look at the feasibility of it.

And what sources here tell us is they want to demonstrate that they're taking the 9/11 recommendations seriously, but no indication yet that this is actually going to happen -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, let me ask you a quick question about the stalled intelligence reform. What is happening with the efforts to create that national intelligence director?

STARR: Well, Soledad, that is the unspoken topic number one just about in all 17.5 miles of Pentagon corridors right now. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, have been in the past very publicly opposed to that key recommendation that apparently made the bill go down in flames over the weekend.

That is shifting military intelligence capabilities, requirements, operations from the Pentagon over to a national intelligence director. This focused on communications and satellites. Their concern was if it went to a national intelligence director, that it would slow down intelligence to the battlefield. That apparently made that bill go down in flames.

But Secretary Rumsfeld and General Myers have been very quiet about it over the last several days. Spokesmen for both of them say they continue to support intelligence reform. Spokesmen for both of them say they have not been involved in the last several days of negotiations on Capitol Hill. But no one yet is saying that either man has withdrawn their objections. So, it's going to be very interesting over the next several days to see how this sorts out. Sources here still trying to figure out how to play all of this -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us. Barbara, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: Soledad, to this point, no criminal charges have been filed after Friday night's fight between fans and players from the Indiana Pacers and the Detroit Pistons. Authorities in Michigan have been interviewing those injured in the brawl and say since injuries were minor, any charges would be limited to assault and battery, both considered misdemeanors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GORCYCA, OAKLAND COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Everyone involved in this altercation will be held accountable, regardless of their status as a player or a fan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: As they continue their investigation there in Oakland County, as for the cup-throwing incident, police say John Green was the fan responsible for hitting Indiana forward Ron Artest in the chest. Green yesterday denies that he did that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN GREEN, DETROIT PISTONS FAN: No comment right now. I'm not going anywhere. The police know where I live. I've talked to them already. I'm not, you know, I'm not going anywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Greg Anthony's an ESPN basketball analyst, also a former NBA player. Lives here in New York, works up the road in Connecticut. Good morning, nice to see you, Greg.

GREG ANTHONY, ESPN BASKETBALL ANALYST: Good morning.

HEMMER: You were on last night, on a number of programs actually, including CNN with Paula Zahn. And part of the point that you were making -- you say the brawl is unfortunate. On the record for that. But it's also a powerful symbol of our society. Explain how you see that.

ANTHONY: Yes, I think culturally, we've become very accepting, somewhat insensitive to this type of behavior, also promoting it. I mean, if you look at where we've gone in terms of public television, in terms of promoting sex and violence, the video games, all these things have a direct impact on the mindsets and the mentality of not just the athletes but those who go out and watch these athletes perform.

And therefore, it should not totally be a shock to see people react in a manner as we saw Friday night, especially when, from an emotional standpoint, you reach your boiling point in terms of what you can handle. And that's the scenario that played out Friday night.

HEMMER: But the thing that shocked everybody, Greg, is that we've never seen an all-out brawl like this at an NBA game, not just on the court, but the stands.

ANTHONY: Well, again, the all-out brawl on the court was not uncommon, from the standpoint that you have people who get very intense and very passionate about what they do at that level. You know, the average person has never been to that level emotionally, in terms of what it takes...

HEMMER: Between the players, I agree with you.

ANTHONY: That's right. But the difference in this case was that -- again, if you watch the video closely, you'll see that this entire ordeal, for the most part, had been squashed. The officials, security had done a good job of calming it down. And then there was someone who incited it by tossing something on someone who had tried to show restraint throughout this entire ordeal and not retaliate. And at that point, that person, Ron Artest, had reached his boiling point.

And as I said before, you don't condone that type of activity. He was wrong and he will be penalized, as he has been already. But, we need to talk about what provoked it. You know, the provocation was there from a fan's perspective. And everyone's saying, you know what, he just tossed a beer in his face. Well, it's not just that the beer was tossed.

It's -- you have to put it in the context of someone who was just in a heated altercation who is not going to be emotionally of sound mind at that time and therefore, their reaction may not be as rational as say, you and I would be as we're sitting here very calm, cool and collected.

HEMMER: We had -- Charles Barkley was here on our program yesterday and very strong opinions on this. He has strong opinions about just about everything. And you spoke to him at great length yesterday, correct?

Is there a higher standard that has to be employed by a celebrity, by a star, by a multi-million dollar athlete, to say you know what, as much as I want to go in that stands and kick the crap out of that guy, I can't do that.

ANTHONY: You know what I'd say? I won't even necessarily say there is a higher standard. There are higher ramifications and repercussions for that person. But that person, regardless of who they are, is still a human being and still have the same types of responses and reactions from emotional standpoints, when provoked, that you or I or the average person on the street would have.

And that's what is hard for a lot of people to understand. But that is a reality. These are still -- this guy is 25 years old. And, if put in that situation enough times, and I'm speaking of a general person, they could find themselves maybe losing control for that instant.

And as I've said, you know what, I've been involved in brawls. I've been there. And you know what, had I been in his situation, I could see maybe myself reacting in a similar way. However...

HEMMER: Now this was 1994, that involved you, right?

ANTHONY: Exactly. Exactly. And I could see that. But, at the same token, it wouldn't make it right. It wouldn't have made it right, had I reacted the same way. And you know what, the ramifications would have been severe, the repercussions, as was in the case in this scenario as it played out by the commissioner. You know, the punishment was definitely severe.

But the real issue beyond that, from a bigger perspective, is how are we going to harness all of this emotion that's brought about also by fans. There's a lot of venom spitting. I leave a lot of people with this. If you work in corporate America -- and I was subjected to racial slurs when I played on a regular basis -- if those things were used in corporate America, someone would either be charged criminally, civilly -- they'd lose their job. But for some reason, athletes are supposed to be subjected to this and it's supposed to be OK.

HEMMER: Well thought out. Good to see you. Greg Anthony. Nice to chat with you -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: In Florida, a pair of strangers worked together to save a man from drowning. Two men separately spotted a 78-year-old man who accidentally driven into a canal on Sunday. They both dove in to rescue him. One was able to pry open the car door, while the other ducked under the rising water to undo the seatbelt and then pull the driver out.

And another dramatic water rescue, this one in Arizona. A woman was trying to cross a creek yesterday afternoon when she was carried away by the floodwaters. The woman managed to hold on to a tree for about an hour -- you can see her there -- before a swift water rescue team was able to get to her. She was taken to a hospital.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: In a moment here, can being overweight lead to dementia? A question for Sanjay Gupta for the moment. Looking at important new studies on that.

O'BRIEN: Also this morning, a weekend shooting of deer hunters claims another victim in Wisconsin. This morning, we talk to the man who knew three of the victims about just how the community is coping now.

HEMMER: Also, who is to blame now for the failure to pass intelligence reform? We'll hear from both sides of the issue. And does it stand a chance in December of passing? Back in a moment after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Another hunter has died after a weekend shooting rampage in rural Wisconsin. The death toll now stands at six. 36- year-old Chai Vang was arrested for allegedly opening fire at a group of hunters who say Vang was trespassing on private property. It happened in a small, tight-knit community in Sawyer County in Wisconsin. Dale Olsen is the chairman of the town of Meteor. He also knows three of the victims well.

Nice to see you, Dale. Thanks for being with us. What a horrific event to happen in a very small town. You knew, as we mentioned, three of the victims. Just -- how's everybody coping today?

DALE OLSEN, METEOR TOWNSHIP CHAIRMAN: It seems like people are still in just a state of shock. It's something that -- my first words are things like this just don't happen here.

O'BRIEN: The suspect, as we mentioned, is under arrest. Are there any more details about exactly what happened, outside of what we know, which was he was in a tree stand that he wasn't supposed to be in, he came down and the next thing you know, he was opening fire. Was there any more details on what exactly happened?

OLSEN: No details that I've been made aware of. I did attend the press conference yesterday. We just can't seem to comprehend why anybody would do anything like this. So I guess the details are a bit irrelevant to most of us that are from the area.

O'BRIEN: There have been reports of tensions, among the Hmong community, the Asian community in that area, and the white hunters as well. Any indication that that might have played a role in this shooting?

OLSEN: I've talked to dozens and possibly 100 people. And I have not yet heard one person who said anything related to anything race related. I've been asked that question before. I think we have to remember that once this man pulled the trigger, he was no longer a hunter, he was no longer an Asian American, he was no longer a father. He was a killer. And when that happens, little things like that just don't seem to make a difference.

O'BRIEN: The area, community, a little over 8,000 people live there. How do you come to terms with such devastation in such a small population? What's the next step for you?

OLSEN: The town of Meteor here is 170 people. And most of the victims are from the Rice Lake area, which is considerably larger than here. But we're still a very close-knit community in northern Wisconsin. And I think that community support and faith in God will help get people through that.

O'BRIEN: Before I let you go, I want you to tell me a little bit about two of the three victims that you know. One has survived, but the other two did not. They were close friends of yours. And I know at the time you also want to respect their family's privacy. But what can you tell us about them?

OLSEN: Really, I knew one fairly well. Mr. Drew -- Denny -- who passed away now. I had worked with him. And he was an avid sportsman and was the type of person -- we could always sit down and share a story. Wisconsin, of course, has a huge deer hunting tradition. It seems like people will go to parties in July and August following the deer season and that's what the men talk about is, what they saw and what they harvested, and things like that.

These are good people, good community residents. And again, the family wishes to not make any statements. And I think we should respect that right.

O'BRIEN: Dale Olsen is the chairman of the town of Meteor. Thanks for talking with us. We certainly appreciate it.

OLSEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Goodbye.

HEMMER: Almost 20 minutes past the hour. Soledad, at the moment here, just weeks after the election 2004, how do Americans feel about the president today? We have the numbers -- new numbers to talk about coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Among the Americans that may be headed to Iraq soon could be a 72-year-old great-grandmother living in Oklahoma. Lena Haddox, a military wife of 30 years, getting ready to be sent to Iraq as a civilian defense worker. The grandmother of eight, great-grandma of three, says she volunteered because she wants to do something for her country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LENA HADDOX, HEADED TO IRAQ: I feel good about going. I'm not scared. Of course, I know there'll be times I will be scared, but I'll get over it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HEMMER: Haddox is going through a medical check-up before a six month tour and she'll have a week of training before flying to Germany and then eventually Iraq. How about that?

CAFFERTY: She looks good.

HEMMER: 72.

O'BRIEN: But a week of training doesn't seem like a lot.

CAFFERTY: Well, I mean, she's not going to be clearing out Falluja when she gets over there.

O'BRIEN: She's a great-grandma. I'm worried about her.

CAFFERTY: The question of the day, boys and girls, is about these TV ads and radio ads and print ads that the Department of Homeland Security has come up with, encouraging parents to talk to their kids about terrorism. Some experts worry that the ads could frighten kids who see or hear them.

Ronald Stevens, the National School Safety Center, warned that this may scare kids into "feeling like the big, bad bogeyman's going to get them at any moment." The question is this: How much should you tell your children about terrorism?

Dominic in Gulfport, Mississippi, says, "Not a thing. CNN covers all the violence over and over and over and over and over and over."

Kat in Huntsville, Alabama: "No, Jack, I don't think it's a good idea to talk to kids about terrorism. My grandson is 9 years old and would not be able to handle it. He worries already about people dying." Charlie in Windsor Locks, Connecticut, writes, "We should explain to our children what terrorism is about and why we need to protect ourselves and that people will do us harm. Then we should let them watch an NBA game for a demonstration."

And Rex weighs in from Toronto in reference to some earlier segments in the program: "Jack's talking about the birds and the bees and he's bringing his nuts to work tomorrow and Soledad is wearing leather. Has the format changed or are you guys going for a different demographic?"

HEMMER: We take all viewers, Rex.

CAFFERTY: That's right. We're not proud, obviously.

HEMMER: They all count.

You mentioned the NBA brawl. Here's what Leno had to say about it -- his take last night, "Late Night."

(START VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, TONIGHT SHOW HOST: U.S. forces have taken Falluja. You hear that? Experts say it's going to be hard to keep Iraq's insurgents from going after people in other cities. And it will be hard. We can't even keep the Indiana Pacers from going after people. This is probably the first sporting event in history where the nosebleed seats were in the front.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That was funny. Still to come this morning, a Sunni Muslim cleric assassinated in Iraq. It's the second such killing in as many days. We're going to take you live to Baghdad, just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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