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Shoppers Seeking Bargains; Hot Topic Debate: Iraqi and Ukraine Elections, CIA Changes
Aired November 26, 2004 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: Well, for a lot of bargain hunters, the first stop was a discount store where low prices are even lower today. Our David Mattingly is at an Atlanta-area Wal-Mart.
And David, what are the shoppers looking for?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're looking for bargains, Tony. And today, we're finding out that Wal-Mart is one retailer that's not going to be telling us how much money they make today. One sign that Black -- that Black Friday -- that's Black Friday -- is not as dark or the economic indicator that it used to be.
And with me now is a Wal-Mart spokesman, Gus Whitcomb.
Why is that? More and more people shopping on the Internet, I believe.
GUS WHITCOMB, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, WAL-MART: That's part of it. We are also seeing folks are probably shopping a little closer into Christmas. So they're changing their shopping habits from that perspective.
I think another thing that we might notice this year, as well, is we don't have that one big thing that everybody has to have. So you might see folks in a little bit more relaxed mode about shopping.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There was a huge rush this morning about 6 a.m. this morning, people getting in line at 4 a.m., actually to make their purchases here. They came through. They made their purchases and they're gone. Where did they go?
WHITCOMB: Well, you know what folks do is they decide which store has the best deals on the stuff that they want. They come here first and they go do their other rounds of other stores as they go through.
So we've got folks here that probably have been at other places this morning and some folks that visited us this morning and are probably at other stores around the area.
MATTINGLY: Gus, thank you very much.
And some of those customers that are in the store right now are telling me it's sort of a mixed economic bag for them this season. This couple right here, these ladies were telling me that they are feeling the economic pinch because of higher prices. So you're shopping for bargains?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MATTINGLY: And are you finding you're having to be much smarter with your money this year than last year?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MATTINGLY: Why is that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mainly, you have to be on a budget. I am on a budget. So I have to watch my sales. If it's not a sale, I can't do it.
MATTINGLY: How is that affecting your decision when you purchase things this year?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I look for lower prices and spend a lot less money.
MATTINGLY: All right, ladies, thank you.
Now, this group down here, they're actually vacationing in Georgia from Wisconsin.
You tell me you actually got a better job this year. So you've got more money to spend?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I got a job at a financial institute. So I'm more cautious with my money, whereas before, with my last job, I was going, you know, spending, spending, charge all I could. So this year I'm a lot more cautious.
MATTINGLY: More money to spend but more cautious. That means what when you're looking for what to buy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're still looking for the best deal out there. You know, you're not quite so restricted as someone that was on a budget or not making quite as much.
MATTINGLY: All right. Well, thank you very much.
It seems to be the common thread here, Tony. Christmas is merrier if you find the bargain.
HARRIS: If you find the bargain and can stay within your budget. David, good to see you. Thank you, sir.
Appropriately enough, there's a bit of the chill in the air for the start of this shopping season. Orelon Sidney is here to fill us in on the forecast for the rest of the holiday weekend.
Hi, Orelon. (WEATHER REPORT)
HARRIS: Thank you.
Well, first, a rockslide. Now a snow storm is keeping a section of Interstate 70 in west central Colorado closed. Look at these pictures. The snow is hampering road crews that have been working almost nonstop since yesterday to clear the huge boulders. Some of them crashed right through the pavement. Officials say they hope to have one lane in each direction open sometime this afternoon.
Upheaval at the CIA. How the spy agency's new head is shaking things up. That's part of today's "Hot Topics" debate when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Disputed elections in Ukraine, calls for election delays in Iraq, and here at home, a political battle over reforming the CIA post-9/11.
Here to tackle those hot topics and more, Stephanie Miller is the host of her own radio talk show, and Joseph Perkins is the national affairs columnist for the "San Diego Union-Tribune."
Good afternoon to both of you. How are you doing?
Stephanie, let's start with you. We've got 15 different political groups and factions in Iraq saying these elections cannot go forward right now. My question, I suppose, is, for this government, this administration politically, can there be a delay in these elections in January?
STEPHANIE MILLER, RADIO TLAK SHOW HOST: Well, you know, why should we -- why should we start now listening to what the people of Iraq want, Tony?
You know, I think clearly -- I think the Republicans are a little irony deficient at this point. But first of all, they're talking about places like Ukraine, that the reason we don't think the election is valid is because the exit polls don't match the actual results. I think they might want to start checking out what's going on in the USA first.
HARRIS: Joe, do we need to listen to the facts on the ground in this case?
JOSEPH PERKINS, NATIONAL AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, "SAN DIEGO UNION- TRIBUNE": Well, the facts on the ground, yes, you should listen to them. But I mean, I think that the majority of folks in Iraq want the elections to take place at the end of January.
I mean, there is a determined interest, mainly insurgents, others who don't want to see democracy flourish in Iraq, who want to postpone them elections, not just postpone them in January but postpone them indefinitely. We saw the same thing in Afghanistan. And that is there are forces who don't want democracy to prevail in either of those two countries.
HARRIS: But Joe, you know what the issue is here. The issue is security and will presidential candidates be able to go out and campaign? Can you set up a fair and safe election when there are insurgents doing just the kinds of things that you're describing?
PERKINS: Well, I think that all we have to do is look in Afghanistan, where you have the same situation, where, in that case, you had al Qaeda, remnants of al Qaeda and the Taliban who wanted to disrupt the elections there because they wanted to thwart the democratic process. We have the same thing happening in Iraq.
I think that's why it was important to root out those insurgents in Falluja. I mean, you're going to have resistance to elections in Iraq, no matter when they take place.
But I think that the people of Iraq really want to exercise their -- their democratic will at the end of January. And I think we will have elections there.
HARRIS: Stephanie, what do you think? Do that double box with them. Yes. What do you think?
MILLER: But -- but I mean, is that really democracy if they only have democracy in some places, as Rumsfeld says? It's not really in all of Iraq. It's just in some places.
Sort of like -- I hate to bring this up again. But like we have democracy in some places in America but not necessarily Ohio or other places where they're still doing a recount.
PERKINS: I think that people will be able to vote throughout the country. Will it be a perfect election? No. But we haven't had perfect elections in the United States.
MILLER: Clearly.
PERKINS: I think the vast majority of the Iraqis will participate in the election, and they will have a democratic elected government and parliament.
HARRIS: All right. Let's move forward. The CIA right now.
And Joe, you've got a piece that I saw recently, talking about how the CIA had pretty much become the mouthpiece of "The New York Times." If you wanted information about what was going on in the CIA, all you had to do was turn to the opening pages, the front page of the "Washington Post" and "The New York Times."
How bad has this thing become, in your opinion? And Porter Goss, is he settling old scores, or is he really about being a change and reform agent?
PERKINS: I think Porter Goss is a change agent. I mean, we've had an agency, I think, that's become kind of roguish in the past four years or so. They are doing -- they are conducting themselves as if they are completely an independent agency, beholden to no one, not accountable to anyone.
And the thing about it is the CIA works for the president of the United States, whether it's George W. Bush or John F. Kerry. They have to recognize that you work for the president.
But what we have seen over the past couple of years, at least the past two years, is that we've had officers and analysts who are violating, in my mind, their secrecy oath. They are out here -- not only are they leaking, but they've gone public.
I mean, it started with Joe Wilson. Then we had Mike Schuler, who wrote the book, "Imperial Hubris," under his nom de plume, Anonymous.
Finally, we had Paul Pelar (ph), who -- all of whom have gone public with their criticisms of this administration. And I'm saying you don't -- you don't -- you don't have that from CIA analysts and officers, no matter who's in the White House.
HARRIS: Stephanie, what's going on here with the CIA?
MILLER: Tony...
HARRIS: Yes.
MILLER: ... clearly, there will be no dissent in Bush the sequel, apparently. I mean, if you believe this memo that was leaked to "The New York Times," then you know, you've got to get on the team, which to me is so dangerous in this country, to say that we have to support this administration and its policies.
That's not the job of the CIA. The job of the CIA is to give him the intelligence, not the intelligence he wants to hear. You know, I think they asked enough times about Iraq and enough different ways that apparently, they got the answers they wanted, even though there was dispute about what the -- weapons there was.
PERKINS: It's fine to them to provide the president intelligence that -- that differs with what the administration wants to hear, but you don't then leak it to "The New York Times" and the "Washington Post." You don't operate an insurgency from within the CIA.
MILLER: Joe, you mean like you don't leak the identity of someone's wife that's a CIA agent? Like that sort of leaking? Who's behind that? Have we found out yet?
PERKINS: I'm not tasked with finding out who leaked the names of Valerie Plame. But I will say this: Joseph Wilson did his wife a disservice by going to "The New York Times" and publishing an op-ed piece that contradicted the administration. Again, information that's supposed to be behind closed doors.
MILLER: If we -- OK, but if we had more people that would stand up to the president and not -- and tell him the hard facts, perhaps we wouldn't have invaded Iraq unnecessarily, and a lot of people would still be alive now. I mean, that's the last thing we need now. PERKINS: Well, let me say, going by your point of view, Stephanie, then Saddam Hussein would still be in power in Iraq. And I don't think that the majority of the Iraqi people wanted that.
MILLER: Well, I think the 100,000 Iraqis that are dead now, I think they'd beg to differ.
PERKINS: Let me get back to the CIA. We want a CIA that provides the president the facts, no matter where those facts come down. But we want them to maintain that confidentiality, so that this president can make decisions.
And it's not just George W. Bush.
MILLER: Well...
PERKINS: No matter who is president, they deserve a CIA that provides them facts as they reveal themselves. That doesn't end -- confidential manner.
MILLER: But Joe, why is -- then why is the CIA, as one senator said, why is the CIA -- why is it in a freefall, as one senator said? This exodus looks like the crowd scene in "Gandhi," I mean, the amount of people leaving this administration.
PERKINS: I think...
HARRIS: Well, Joe...
MILLER: They said they're not comfortable with the management.
HARRIS: I will add again that we've got in the headlines today two more top spies out, undercover operatives, and they are uncomfortable, in quotes here, "with the management style."
PERKINS: You know what? Hey, sometimes you've got to clean house in an agency. That's what the -- the senator from this state, Arizona, said just a couple of weeks ago.
He told Porter Goss, "You need to clean house at that agency, because it's become a rogue agency."
And I'm not prepared to go so far as to say the agency has become a rogue agency. But clearly, you have people with -- inside the CIA who have their own agenda. And that agenda oftentimes is contrary to what the mission of that agency is. That is to present the facts without going public with it, without doing the things that Paul Pelar (ph) did, showing up and giving a speech at which he deconstructed this administration's policies in Iraq.
That's not what we want this agency to do. They shouldn't do it, no matter who is sitting in the White House.
HARRIS: But Stephanie -- go ahead.
MILLER: I found the information, you know, pretty relevant that Richard Clarke said, you know, Bush wanted to invade Iraq the day after 9/11. I'm glad there's people like that that are speaking out.
PERKINS: Well, Richard Clarke wasn't at the CIA when he said that.
HARRIS: But Stephanie, would you -- would you agree that -- that there needs -- if you look at the recommendations from the 9/11 Commission, there needs to be a quantitative shift? Maybe some of these people, maybe more people need to move, need to go.
MILLER: Well, you know, I find it ironic that, you know, this president was the one that tried -- did, you know, blocked the formation of the 9/11 Commission. I guess -- I guess you would say he was against it before he was for it, and I guess that would be a flip- flop.
You know, he -- And so it's not surprising to me that it's Republicans that are blocking the passage of the 9/11 bill.
And I think that frankly, Tony, it's disgusting, you know, that they are willing to use 9/11 families as props at their convention and on their television commercials, and they're not willing to enact the reform that these families so desperately want and all of us want.
HARRIS: We will pick up that point. A perfect opportunity for a break. Thank you, Stephanie.
We'll take a quick break, but don't go away. More with Stephanie Miller and Joseph Perkins when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: And welcome back, everyone. We're debating the week's hot topics with two guests. Stephanie Miller is the host of her own radio talk show, and Joseph Perkins is the national affairs columnist for the "San Diego Union-Tribune."
And Joseph, why don't we have an intelligence reform bill? How could this thing not be done? We're going to come back in December. And what makes you believe that we'll get it done there? Or do you believe that?
PERKINS: Well, I'm not so certain. But let me say this, Tony. You know, former president, Dwight Eisenhower, once said never be in a hurry to make a mistake. And I think that that's the approach that should be taken with respect to this intelligence reform bill.
And that is there is such a rush to get something done that it might not be what we ultimately want to have done.
HARRIS: But Joe, the president believes in it. Donald Rumsfeld, if you believe him now, is on board with it.
PERKINS: Sure. Well, I'm not so sure if the president is 100 percent behind this bill. You know, the congressman from my community, Duncan Hunter, who's -- who's chair of the House Armed Services Committee, I think makes some -- some good points in terms of opposition to the measure as written.
And that is, he's concerned, and I think rightfully so, about what impact the passage of this measure will have on our men and women in uniform who are on the ground in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
And that is, if you -- one of the things this thing would do is shift the intelligence assets that we -- that DOD has under the control of a director of intelligence. Well, our guys on -- in battle need real time intel, and if they have to have their decisions cleared, in terms of deployment of those assets, cleared by a director in Washington, well, it could result in, I think, some combat casualties. It could result in the information not getting to them when they need it.
And so I think we have to be very careful in how we redeploy those assets, and just what role this director of intelligence will have with respect to our Defense Department, our Pentagon.
HARRIS: Stephanie, don't be bashful. Jump in here.
MILLER: You know, Joe, I think, Tony, you make a good point. I mean, look, this president is the most pro military president ever, right? All of us liberals hate the troops and hate America. If he's for it, then how can it be bad for the troops, right? I mean, which is it?
And I jus think this is the danger in voting in a majority of Republicans, Congress, Senate, and White House. There go your checks and balances. Now we, you know, now it's Republicans blocking -- blocking this.
PERKINS: What exactly would you like to see happen with the intelligence reform? That's the question.
I mean, the fact of the matter is, I think that we are going to get an intelligence reform bill passed, but we don't need to have it done, before, say, the holiday. I don't think that our intelligence community will quietly perish between now and, say, January or even February if this intelligence reform legislation that's -- that's winding its way through Congress right now isn't approved.
MILLER: For, you know, an administration that campaigned on keeping us safer, I'd say this is taking too long as it is, if you ask the 9/11 families or many other people.
PERKINS: Well, it's not -- It's not the administration that's holding up this bill. I mean, it's been -- it's being stopped by the House. Right?
HARRIS: All right. Let me jump in.
MILLER: If he has a mandate, why can't he get his fellow Republicans to even go along with him on it? They're the ones blocking it.
PERKINS: I think that they should take a step back, take a deep breath, and not be in great haste to pass a bill that's flawed in many respects. And wait until -- as long as it's necessary to do intelligence reform correctly.
HARRIS: OK. Give me a sense -- I want -- I've got two topics I want to get to. But let me take the Ukraine very quickly. Give me a sense -- and Joe, sort of frame this war so we understand why this is so important, what's going on there, why we should pay attention to what's going on with this disputed election in Ukraine in our living rooms here at home.
PERKINS: I think we should be concerned, because it appears that there have been massive irregularities. I know that -- that Putin accepts the results of the election and sent a congratulatory message.
HARRIS: Very quickly, yes. Yes.
PERKINS: But I question whether or not this election was fair.
HARRIS: OK. And Stephanie, what are your thoughts on it?
MILLER: I'm just trying not to burst into laughter. I'm sorry.
PERKINS: Are you going to liken the election in the Ukraine to what happened in this country, Stephanie? Come on now.
MILLER: Yes, I am. Yes, I am.
PERKINS: You are still -- you're still disputing the outcome of the recent election?
MILLER: I think Alanis Morisette needs to do a new version of "Isn't it Ironic?"
We are saying -- and this is how we determine the validity of elections around the world, is exit polls. That's how we got Scherbernadze (ph) out of office, because the exit polls didn't match.
Why is nobody in the liberal media covering why the exit polls were only wrong where there was no voting -- where there was no paper trail with electronic voting machines?
There is -- I know we're not paying attention, but there's a recount going on in Ohio. There's going to be a congressional investigation. I agree -- I agree with fair elections in the Ukraine. But gee, I think that Ohio would be a good place to start, too.
HARRIS: Stephanie -- Stephanie, we are flat out of time.
MILLER: I won't be invited back, will I?
HARRIS: Yes, you will.
Stephanie and Joe, good to see you both. And that's a good lively debate. And that's what we wanted today. Thank you very much. Happy holidays to you.
PERKINS: And to you, too, Tony. Thanks for having us.
HARRIS: He's an all-American boy, loves football and R&B and learning perfect Mandarin? We'll meet a boy who sings Chinese opera. That's coming up on LIVE FROM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: And that is all for this hour. Be sure to watch "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" at 5 p.m. Eastern. Judy Woodruff is filling in for Wolf today. Youth and AIDS, why teens in the U.S. are more at risk these days.
I'm Tony Harris in the CNN center in Atlanta. LIVE FROM with Kyra Phillips is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired November 26, 2004 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TONY HARRIS, CO-HOST: Well, for a lot of bargain hunters, the first stop was a discount store where low prices are even lower today. Our David Mattingly is at an Atlanta-area Wal-Mart.
And David, what are the shoppers looking for?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're looking for bargains, Tony. And today, we're finding out that Wal-Mart is one retailer that's not going to be telling us how much money they make today. One sign that Black -- that Black Friday -- that's Black Friday -- is not as dark or the economic indicator that it used to be.
And with me now is a Wal-Mart spokesman, Gus Whitcomb.
Why is that? More and more people shopping on the Internet, I believe.
GUS WHITCOMB, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, WAL-MART: That's part of it. We are also seeing folks are probably shopping a little closer into Christmas. So they're changing their shopping habits from that perspective.
I think another thing that we might notice this year, as well, is we don't have that one big thing that everybody has to have. So you might see folks in a little bit more relaxed mode about shopping.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There was a huge rush this morning about 6 a.m. this morning, people getting in line at 4 a.m., actually to make their purchases here. They came through. They made their purchases and they're gone. Where did they go?
WHITCOMB: Well, you know what folks do is they decide which store has the best deals on the stuff that they want. They come here first and they go do their other rounds of other stores as they go through.
So we've got folks here that probably have been at other places this morning and some folks that visited us this morning and are probably at other stores around the area.
MATTINGLY: Gus, thank you very much.
And some of those customers that are in the store right now are telling me it's sort of a mixed economic bag for them this season. This couple right here, these ladies were telling me that they are feeling the economic pinch because of higher prices. So you're shopping for bargains?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MATTINGLY: And are you finding you're having to be much smarter with your money this year than last year?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
MATTINGLY: Why is that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mainly, you have to be on a budget. I am on a budget. So I have to watch my sales. If it's not a sale, I can't do it.
MATTINGLY: How is that affecting your decision when you purchase things this year?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I look for lower prices and spend a lot less money.
MATTINGLY: All right, ladies, thank you.
Now, this group down here, they're actually vacationing in Georgia from Wisconsin.
You tell me you actually got a better job this year. So you've got more money to spend?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I got a job at a financial institute. So I'm more cautious with my money, whereas before, with my last job, I was going, you know, spending, spending, charge all I could. So this year I'm a lot more cautious.
MATTINGLY: More money to spend but more cautious. That means what when you're looking for what to buy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're still looking for the best deal out there. You know, you're not quite so restricted as someone that was on a budget or not making quite as much.
MATTINGLY: All right. Well, thank you very much.
It seems to be the common thread here, Tony. Christmas is merrier if you find the bargain.
HARRIS: If you find the bargain and can stay within your budget. David, good to see you. Thank you, sir.
Appropriately enough, there's a bit of the chill in the air for the start of this shopping season. Orelon Sidney is here to fill us in on the forecast for the rest of the holiday weekend.
Hi, Orelon. (WEATHER REPORT)
HARRIS: Thank you.
Well, first, a rockslide. Now a snow storm is keeping a section of Interstate 70 in west central Colorado closed. Look at these pictures. The snow is hampering road crews that have been working almost nonstop since yesterday to clear the huge boulders. Some of them crashed right through the pavement. Officials say they hope to have one lane in each direction open sometime this afternoon.
Upheaval at the CIA. How the spy agency's new head is shaking things up. That's part of today's "Hot Topics" debate when we come right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Disputed elections in Ukraine, calls for election delays in Iraq, and here at home, a political battle over reforming the CIA post-9/11.
Here to tackle those hot topics and more, Stephanie Miller is the host of her own radio talk show, and Joseph Perkins is the national affairs columnist for the "San Diego Union-Tribune."
Good afternoon to both of you. How are you doing?
Stephanie, let's start with you. We've got 15 different political groups and factions in Iraq saying these elections cannot go forward right now. My question, I suppose, is, for this government, this administration politically, can there be a delay in these elections in January?
STEPHANIE MILLER, RADIO TLAK SHOW HOST: Well, you know, why should we -- why should we start now listening to what the people of Iraq want, Tony?
You know, I think clearly -- I think the Republicans are a little irony deficient at this point. But first of all, they're talking about places like Ukraine, that the reason we don't think the election is valid is because the exit polls don't match the actual results. I think they might want to start checking out what's going on in the USA first.
HARRIS: Joe, do we need to listen to the facts on the ground in this case?
JOSEPH PERKINS, NATIONAL AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, "SAN DIEGO UNION- TRIBUNE": Well, the facts on the ground, yes, you should listen to them. But I mean, I think that the majority of folks in Iraq want the elections to take place at the end of January.
I mean, there is a determined interest, mainly insurgents, others who don't want to see democracy flourish in Iraq, who want to postpone them elections, not just postpone them in January but postpone them indefinitely. We saw the same thing in Afghanistan. And that is there are forces who don't want democracy to prevail in either of those two countries.
HARRIS: But Joe, you know what the issue is here. The issue is security and will presidential candidates be able to go out and campaign? Can you set up a fair and safe election when there are insurgents doing just the kinds of things that you're describing?
PERKINS: Well, I think that all we have to do is look in Afghanistan, where you have the same situation, where, in that case, you had al Qaeda, remnants of al Qaeda and the Taliban who wanted to disrupt the elections there because they wanted to thwart the democratic process. We have the same thing happening in Iraq.
I think that's why it was important to root out those insurgents in Falluja. I mean, you're going to have resistance to elections in Iraq, no matter when they take place.
But I think that the people of Iraq really want to exercise their -- their democratic will at the end of January. And I think we will have elections there.
HARRIS: Stephanie, what do you think? Do that double box with them. Yes. What do you think?
MILLER: But -- but I mean, is that really democracy if they only have democracy in some places, as Rumsfeld says? It's not really in all of Iraq. It's just in some places.
Sort of like -- I hate to bring this up again. But like we have democracy in some places in America but not necessarily Ohio or other places where they're still doing a recount.
PERKINS: I think that people will be able to vote throughout the country. Will it be a perfect election? No. But we haven't had perfect elections in the United States.
MILLER: Clearly.
PERKINS: I think the vast majority of the Iraqis will participate in the election, and they will have a democratic elected government and parliament.
HARRIS: All right. Let's move forward. The CIA right now.
And Joe, you've got a piece that I saw recently, talking about how the CIA had pretty much become the mouthpiece of "The New York Times." If you wanted information about what was going on in the CIA, all you had to do was turn to the opening pages, the front page of the "Washington Post" and "The New York Times."
How bad has this thing become, in your opinion? And Porter Goss, is he settling old scores, or is he really about being a change and reform agent?
PERKINS: I think Porter Goss is a change agent. I mean, we've had an agency, I think, that's become kind of roguish in the past four years or so. They are doing -- they are conducting themselves as if they are completely an independent agency, beholden to no one, not accountable to anyone.
And the thing about it is the CIA works for the president of the United States, whether it's George W. Bush or John F. Kerry. They have to recognize that you work for the president.
But what we have seen over the past couple of years, at least the past two years, is that we've had officers and analysts who are violating, in my mind, their secrecy oath. They are out here -- not only are they leaking, but they've gone public.
I mean, it started with Joe Wilson. Then we had Mike Schuler, who wrote the book, "Imperial Hubris," under his nom de plume, Anonymous.
Finally, we had Paul Pelar (ph), who -- all of whom have gone public with their criticisms of this administration. And I'm saying you don't -- you don't -- you don't have that from CIA analysts and officers, no matter who's in the White House.
HARRIS: Stephanie, what's going on here with the CIA?
MILLER: Tony...
HARRIS: Yes.
MILLER: ... clearly, there will be no dissent in Bush the sequel, apparently. I mean, if you believe this memo that was leaked to "The New York Times," then you know, you've got to get on the team, which to me is so dangerous in this country, to say that we have to support this administration and its policies.
That's not the job of the CIA. The job of the CIA is to give him the intelligence, not the intelligence he wants to hear. You know, I think they asked enough times about Iraq and enough different ways that apparently, they got the answers they wanted, even though there was dispute about what the -- weapons there was.
PERKINS: It's fine to them to provide the president intelligence that -- that differs with what the administration wants to hear, but you don't then leak it to "The New York Times" and the "Washington Post." You don't operate an insurgency from within the CIA.
MILLER: Joe, you mean like you don't leak the identity of someone's wife that's a CIA agent? Like that sort of leaking? Who's behind that? Have we found out yet?
PERKINS: I'm not tasked with finding out who leaked the names of Valerie Plame. But I will say this: Joseph Wilson did his wife a disservice by going to "The New York Times" and publishing an op-ed piece that contradicted the administration. Again, information that's supposed to be behind closed doors.
MILLER: If we -- OK, but if we had more people that would stand up to the president and not -- and tell him the hard facts, perhaps we wouldn't have invaded Iraq unnecessarily, and a lot of people would still be alive now. I mean, that's the last thing we need now. PERKINS: Well, let me say, going by your point of view, Stephanie, then Saddam Hussein would still be in power in Iraq. And I don't think that the majority of the Iraqi people wanted that.
MILLER: Well, I think the 100,000 Iraqis that are dead now, I think they'd beg to differ.
PERKINS: Let me get back to the CIA. We want a CIA that provides the president the facts, no matter where those facts come down. But we want them to maintain that confidentiality, so that this president can make decisions.
And it's not just George W. Bush.
MILLER: Well...
PERKINS: No matter who is president, they deserve a CIA that provides them facts as they reveal themselves. That doesn't end -- confidential manner.
MILLER: But Joe, why is -- then why is the CIA, as one senator said, why is the CIA -- why is it in a freefall, as one senator said? This exodus looks like the crowd scene in "Gandhi," I mean, the amount of people leaving this administration.
PERKINS: I think...
HARRIS: Well, Joe...
MILLER: They said they're not comfortable with the management.
HARRIS: I will add again that we've got in the headlines today two more top spies out, undercover operatives, and they are uncomfortable, in quotes here, "with the management style."
PERKINS: You know what? Hey, sometimes you've got to clean house in an agency. That's what the -- the senator from this state, Arizona, said just a couple of weeks ago.
He told Porter Goss, "You need to clean house at that agency, because it's become a rogue agency."
And I'm not prepared to go so far as to say the agency has become a rogue agency. But clearly, you have people with -- inside the CIA who have their own agenda. And that agenda oftentimes is contrary to what the mission of that agency is. That is to present the facts without going public with it, without doing the things that Paul Pelar (ph) did, showing up and giving a speech at which he deconstructed this administration's policies in Iraq.
That's not what we want this agency to do. They shouldn't do it, no matter who is sitting in the White House.
HARRIS: But Stephanie -- go ahead.
MILLER: I found the information, you know, pretty relevant that Richard Clarke said, you know, Bush wanted to invade Iraq the day after 9/11. I'm glad there's people like that that are speaking out.
PERKINS: Well, Richard Clarke wasn't at the CIA when he said that.
HARRIS: But Stephanie, would you -- would you agree that -- that there needs -- if you look at the recommendations from the 9/11 Commission, there needs to be a quantitative shift? Maybe some of these people, maybe more people need to move, need to go.
MILLER: Well, you know, I find it ironic that, you know, this president was the one that tried -- did, you know, blocked the formation of the 9/11 Commission. I guess -- I guess you would say he was against it before he was for it, and I guess that would be a flip- flop.
You know, he -- And so it's not surprising to me that it's Republicans that are blocking the passage of the 9/11 bill.
And I think that frankly, Tony, it's disgusting, you know, that they are willing to use 9/11 families as props at their convention and on their television commercials, and they're not willing to enact the reform that these families so desperately want and all of us want.
HARRIS: We will pick up that point. A perfect opportunity for a break. Thank you, Stephanie.
We'll take a quick break, but don't go away. More with Stephanie Miller and Joseph Perkins when we come back.
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HARRIS: And welcome back, everyone. We're debating the week's hot topics with two guests. Stephanie Miller is the host of her own radio talk show, and Joseph Perkins is the national affairs columnist for the "San Diego Union-Tribune."
And Joseph, why don't we have an intelligence reform bill? How could this thing not be done? We're going to come back in December. And what makes you believe that we'll get it done there? Or do you believe that?
PERKINS: Well, I'm not so certain. But let me say this, Tony. You know, former president, Dwight Eisenhower, once said never be in a hurry to make a mistake. And I think that that's the approach that should be taken with respect to this intelligence reform bill.
And that is there is such a rush to get something done that it might not be what we ultimately want to have done.
HARRIS: But Joe, the president believes in it. Donald Rumsfeld, if you believe him now, is on board with it.
PERKINS: Sure. Well, I'm not so sure if the president is 100 percent behind this bill. You know, the congressman from my community, Duncan Hunter, who's -- who's chair of the House Armed Services Committee, I think makes some -- some good points in terms of opposition to the measure as written.
And that is, he's concerned, and I think rightfully so, about what impact the passage of this measure will have on our men and women in uniform who are on the ground in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.
And that is, if you -- one of the things this thing would do is shift the intelligence assets that we -- that DOD has under the control of a director of intelligence. Well, our guys on -- in battle need real time intel, and if they have to have their decisions cleared, in terms of deployment of those assets, cleared by a director in Washington, well, it could result in, I think, some combat casualties. It could result in the information not getting to them when they need it.
And so I think we have to be very careful in how we redeploy those assets, and just what role this director of intelligence will have with respect to our Defense Department, our Pentagon.
HARRIS: Stephanie, don't be bashful. Jump in here.
MILLER: You know, Joe, I think, Tony, you make a good point. I mean, look, this president is the most pro military president ever, right? All of us liberals hate the troops and hate America. If he's for it, then how can it be bad for the troops, right? I mean, which is it?
And I jus think this is the danger in voting in a majority of Republicans, Congress, Senate, and White House. There go your checks and balances. Now we, you know, now it's Republicans blocking -- blocking this.
PERKINS: What exactly would you like to see happen with the intelligence reform? That's the question.
I mean, the fact of the matter is, I think that we are going to get an intelligence reform bill passed, but we don't need to have it done, before, say, the holiday. I don't think that our intelligence community will quietly perish between now and, say, January or even February if this intelligence reform legislation that's -- that's winding its way through Congress right now isn't approved.
MILLER: For, you know, an administration that campaigned on keeping us safer, I'd say this is taking too long as it is, if you ask the 9/11 families or many other people.
PERKINS: Well, it's not -- It's not the administration that's holding up this bill. I mean, it's been -- it's being stopped by the House. Right?
HARRIS: All right. Let me jump in.
MILLER: If he has a mandate, why can't he get his fellow Republicans to even go along with him on it? They're the ones blocking it.
PERKINS: I think that they should take a step back, take a deep breath, and not be in great haste to pass a bill that's flawed in many respects. And wait until -- as long as it's necessary to do intelligence reform correctly.
HARRIS: OK. Give me a sense -- I want -- I've got two topics I want to get to. But let me take the Ukraine very quickly. Give me a sense -- and Joe, sort of frame this war so we understand why this is so important, what's going on there, why we should pay attention to what's going on with this disputed election in Ukraine in our living rooms here at home.
PERKINS: I think we should be concerned, because it appears that there have been massive irregularities. I know that -- that Putin accepts the results of the election and sent a congratulatory message.
HARRIS: Very quickly, yes. Yes.
PERKINS: But I question whether or not this election was fair.
HARRIS: OK. And Stephanie, what are your thoughts on it?
MILLER: I'm just trying not to burst into laughter. I'm sorry.
PERKINS: Are you going to liken the election in the Ukraine to what happened in this country, Stephanie? Come on now.
MILLER: Yes, I am. Yes, I am.
PERKINS: You are still -- you're still disputing the outcome of the recent election?
MILLER: I think Alanis Morisette needs to do a new version of "Isn't it Ironic?"
We are saying -- and this is how we determine the validity of elections around the world, is exit polls. That's how we got Scherbernadze (ph) out of office, because the exit polls didn't match.
Why is nobody in the liberal media covering why the exit polls were only wrong where there was no voting -- where there was no paper trail with electronic voting machines?
There is -- I know we're not paying attention, but there's a recount going on in Ohio. There's going to be a congressional investigation. I agree -- I agree with fair elections in the Ukraine. But gee, I think that Ohio would be a good place to start, too.
HARRIS: Stephanie -- Stephanie, we are flat out of time.
MILLER: I won't be invited back, will I?
HARRIS: Yes, you will.
Stephanie and Joe, good to see you both. And that's a good lively debate. And that's what we wanted today. Thank you very much. Happy holidays to you.
PERKINS: And to you, too, Tony. Thanks for having us.
HARRIS: He's an all-American boy, loves football and R&B and learning perfect Mandarin? We'll meet a boy who sings Chinese opera. That's coming up on LIVE FROM.
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HARRIS: And that is all for this hour. Be sure to watch "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" at 5 p.m. Eastern. Judy Woodruff is filling in for Wolf today. Youth and AIDS, why teens in the U.S. are more at risk these days.
I'm Tony Harris in the CNN center in Atlanta. LIVE FROM with Kyra Phillips is next.
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