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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Pentagon Increases Troops in Iraq; Senator Calls for Kofi Annan to Resign
Aired December 01, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the United States is sending more soldiers to Iraq. The additional American force is needed to secure Iraq for its first election. We'll have a report from the Pentagon.
The Ukraine Parliament today threw out Prime Minister Yanukovych's government. The opposition is cheering. We'll report from the Ukraine on this building political crisis.
Rising calls for U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to resign in the oil-for-food scandal. Senator Norm Coleman says the evidence is overwhelming.
SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: The bottom line is one man was in charge, and when we get to the bottom of this, he's got to step back.
DOBBS: Senator Coleman is our guest tonight.
Arizona's Proposition 200 supported by a large majority of Arizona voters. A federal judge in Arizona has blocked the initiative from becoming law. We'll have a special report on whether the will of the people is being frustrated in this important border security reform.
Americans are crossing the Mexican border in droves to buy cheap prescription drugs with no guarantee they're the real thing. We'll have a special report on our "Overmedicated Nation," and a debate on whether the Food and Drug Administration is even worth reforming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday December 1. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the Pentagon is sending 1,500 new troops to Iraq, extending the tours of thousands more already there. The additional force will bring our troop strength in Iraq to 150,000. That's the highest level since the invasion began more than a year and a half ago.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With Iraq's fledgling security forces still a question mark, and thousands of U.S. forces still tied down in Falluja, the Pentagon is moving to boost overall American troop levels in Iraq by roughly 12,000 to beef up security for Iraqi elections now set for January 30.
Fifteen hundred fresh soldiers from the Army's 82nd Airborne, known as the 911 division, have gotten the word they'll be in Iraq by mid month. And in addition to the new soldiers, more than 10,000 other troops already in Iraq have been informed they'll be going home in March of next year instead of January.
Among the troops extended for two more months on the ground, 4,400 soldiers from the 25th Infantry Division, 3,500 from the 1st Cavalry Division, 2,300 Marines from the 31st MEU, and 160 soldiers from the 116th Transportation Company.
Currently, there are 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. With the extensions and new deployments, that number will swell to 150,000 by mid-January, an all-time high, eclipsing the peak of 148,000 American troops in Iraq of May of last year right after the invasion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And Lou, despite the obvious strain that this is putting on the U.S. military, the Pentagon continues to argue that its military force is not too small and that it's not suffering from any shortage of new recruits.
Nevertheless for some of these troops, this will be the second extension of their tour, first from ten to 12 months, then from 12 to 14 months. The Pentagon insists they won't be extended again and says they'll be given two extra months back home to make up for the extended tour -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, just, if you would, to help us understand how can the Pentagon with two extensions of our troops in Iraq, say that they have an adequate number of troops? This is -- this seems on its face mindless.
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, there's no question the Pentagon can get the job done, essentially by working harder and longer. What critics say is what clear -- what this clearly shows is by having to extend troops, having to use National Guard troops to the extent they're doing, that they need a larger military force to draw from. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in this position, you know.
And that's the ongoing debate. The Pentagon continues to insist this is a short-term problem that they can deal with more effectively by shifting things around. But that short-term problem has been going on now for quite some time.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, thank you very much, our senior Pentagon correspondent. President Bush returned from a two-day visit to Canada. President Bush now faces a number of challenges at home, including the battle in Congress over the stalled intelligence reform legislation.
John King is in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, here in Halifax, the president was trying to deal with one of his most urgent challenges on the global stage, trying to repair relationships frayed by the bitter debate over Iraq and other issues in his first term.
Mr. Bush sounding quote a conciliatory note here in Halifax, saying this new term offers a new opportunity to reach out and consult with friends.
But the president also not backing down at all from his decision to go to war in Iraq, saying that if countries including Canada expect him to enter into more multinational, multilateral diplomacy, then those countries must also bear the burden, the responsibility, if you will, of pushing the United Nations and other multilateral organizations so that when they deal with an issue there is action, not just speeches and meetings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The success of multilateralism is measured not merely by following a process, but by achieving results. The objective of the U.N. and other institutions must be collective security. Not endless debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now back at home, the president, we are told by senior aides, moving urgently to deal with the domestic challenge. That, the debate over that intelligence reform bill that would create a new national director of intelligence. It stalled, of course, last week because of Republican objectives in the House of Representatives.
Top Bush aides, including Karl Rove, his top strategist, and legislative advisers meeting today at a Republican congressional retreat with the leadership, trying to work on a compromise. We are told as early as tomorrow, the president himself will send a letter to the Congress outlining what he wants in that bill, and making clear he wants that bill dealt with in the next week or so.
And Lou, the president also, we are told, likely to pick up the phone before the week is out, have telephone conversation with the speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert, and the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, again making clear he wants a bill.
Many in Congress still questioning that. They say they are getting mixed signals from the Bush administration. Senior Bush aides, though, are telling us tonight the president now views this as a credibility challenge, that he wants to get the Republican leadership, to get this legislation to his desk. Believing that how this debate plays out will also have an effect on the coming debates over spending, tax reform, Social Security reform and other big-ticket items in the second Bush term -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, the president, as you have reported and know full well, interceded directly with the Congress and the holdouts and the conference committee the week -- the week before Thanksgiving, and simply failed to push that legislation through.
What in the world make us think that there would be any different result this time?
KING: Well, No. 1, if the president releases a letter and has more public events, he would be putting his own credibility on the line in a very public way, and he's hoping that some Republican loyalty comes into play.
It will be interesting to see the language in that letter. We are told a draft that letter says the president supports the compromise that was agreed to last week. Congressman Sensenbrenner, Congressman Hunter and others refused to support that bill, and the House speaker refused to bring it to the floor, because there was dissension within the Republican caucus.
If the president signs off on that language, he will essentially be asking those two chairman in the House, Mr. Sensenbrenner and Mr. Hunter, to back down, and if they don't back down, asking the speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert, to make them. So seeing the letter from the president, Lou, will be the next big step.
DOBBS: And with those -- those congressmen in the House, about 100 Republicans, supporting both Congressman Hunter and Congressman Sensenbrenner, this has all of the earmarks of being a political showdown within the Republican ranks themselves.
John King, reporting from Halifax.
New calls tonight for U.N. Secretary-general Kofi Annan to resign. Senator Norm Coleman, who is leading the Senate investigation into the U.N. oil-for-food scandal, today said Secretary Annan must go.
Richard Roth is at the United Nations with the report -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, they're circling the wagons here tonight at the United Nations. Pretty much a full rejection of Senator Coleman's resignation demand. The U.N. has heard others demand the call. However, no countries have stepped forward.
CNN asked the secretary-general and later his spokesman about Senator Coleman's demand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Secretary-general, Senator Norm Coleman said you should resign. Are you considering stepping down?
KOFI ANNAN, SECRETARY-GENERAL, UNITED NATIONS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: The U.N. spokesman, Fred Eckhard, was later asked about the demand by Senator Coleman to step down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: A few voices doesn't make a chorus. He has heard no calls for resignation for any member state. If there's some agitation on the issue, on the sidelines, that's fine. That's healthy debate. But he is intent on continuing his substantive work for the remaining two years and one month of his term.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Some 3,000 U.N. staffers on an internal e-mail, Lou, have pledged support for Annan and said the media reports on all of the oil-for-food stuff are biased and not based on facts. Ambassadors from Chile and Spain said it's all ridiculous.
However, some U.N. officials are worried about damage to the U.N. brand in their contacts with the business community, should this deteriorate in any way. Basically, Lou, they're waiting for proof before they really get worried here.
DOBBS: Proof of what, Richard?
ROTH: Proof of any type of corruption by senior U.N. officials, violations of U.N. laws by diplomats. They're just going to watch and wait. That's the way of the place. They're going to wait for the Volcker panel and some of these other congressional committees to finish their reports.
But it may be too late. There might be a lot of damage done to the U.N. as an institution before they really know what to do with the damage done.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
Richard Roth reporting from the United Nations.
And Senator Norm Coleman will be our guest here. We will be talking about why he says Kofi Annan must go and go now.
New developments tonight in the election crisis in the Ukraine. Opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko today agreed to end the siege of government buildings by thousands of his supporters. It came after a stunning defeat for his opponent in Ukraine's parliament.
Jill Dougherty reports from Kiev.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Opposition lawmakers exploded in cheers as the Ukrainian parliament voted to fire the government of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, the candidate initially declared the winner in this disputed Ukrainian presidential election.
Surrounding the building, thousands of demonstrators who support the man who claims the election was stolen from him, Viktor Yushchenko. Rows of marchers in orange slickers and hard hats, the color of the Orange Revolution. Inside the fence, police shoulder to shoulder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yushchenko! Yushchenko!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yushchenko! Yushchenko!
DOUGHERTY: As lawmakers emerged from the building, they were mobbed by ecstatic supporters. But Prime Minister Yanukovych is digging in his heels.
VIKTOR YANUKOVYCH, PRIME MINISTER, UKRAINE (through translator): I will never recognize this decision. They approved the decision in political terms, but it is against the law, it is against the Constitution.
DOUGHERTY: A few hours later, the two warring candidates were standing almost side by side. Another round of talk brokered by international representatives, but they failed to resolve their political standoff, and they won't meet again until Ukraine's supreme court rules on opposition allegations that the election was filled with vote fraud.
The European Union's Javier Solana says new elections are likely.
JAVIER SOLANA, E.U. FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF: The better for political reasons, and the sooner the better for economic reasons. A longer process will deteriorate the economy and, therefore, will benefit nobody.
DOUGHERTY: Legal experts from both sides are beginning to discuss how Ukraine's election laws should be changed in order to allow new elections.
(on camera): Tonight, the opposition says it will stop blockading government buildings, and both sides vowed they will not resort to violence.
(voice-over): At Independence Square, the opposition set off fireworks, eager to celebrate anything that looks like a step toward ending this impasse.
Jill Dougherty, CNN, Kiev, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And still ahead here tonight, in the midst of this election crisis in Ukraine, a great mystery. Poisoned by politics? Ukrainian opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko looks very different today than he did when his campaign for the presidency of Ukraine began. We'll have a report tonight on his mysterious illness.
And a federal judge holds the will of voters hostage in Arizona, blocking an important proposal to crack down on providing taxpayer benefits to illegal aliens. We'll have that report coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: There is no lack of controversy in Ukraine's presidential election, and, amidst charges of a fixed election, a rigged election, intimidation of voters, opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko has undergone a dramatic change in his appearance. It's a change that he says is the result of an attempt on his life.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You can tell opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko has been through hell. Early in the campaign, the 50-year-old was acclaimed for his movie star looks. Now his face is badly pockmarked. He says he was poisoned. Ukrainian officials denied any wrongdoing.
GLEN HOWARD, PRESIDENT, JAMESTOWN FOUNDATION: His poisoning incident actually occurred when he was invited to a dinner at the home of the head of the Ukrainian intelligence services. So that's when -- after appearing at that dinner, that's when he got sick.
PILGRIM: For five weeks, he was forced out of the campaign, being treated in a clinic in Austria for "chemical substances not normally found in food products." Experts think it could be dioxin.
DR. DARRELL RIGEL, NYU MEDICAL CENTER: The kind of changes that he has, the symptoms of the scarring, the very quick scarring that occurred, would be consistent with what you would see from somebody who had a very high dose of dioxin.
PILGRIM: Yushchenko said that was the second attempt on his life. Weeks earlier, his car was forced off the road.
Back in 2000, protests erupted when a Ukrainian journalist Georgiy Gongadze, who was critical of President Kuchma, was found beheaded in a ditch. Journalists were emboldened by those protests to challenge Kuchma this time, refusing to broadcast election results. The woman doing sign language during the broadcast instead signed to viewers the election was a fraud.
ADRIAN KARATNYCKY, FREEDOM HOUSE: Everything that is going on now, the real consolidation of the opposition into one movement, really happened around the murder of Gongadze because it sort of blew the lid off of how corrupt the system was.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now experts say those street protests a few years ago were the seeds of the protests we're seeing in Kiev today, and, today, after more than a week of protests, many Ukrainians are still willing to take a stand -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
This mystery -- is there any likelihood we're going to find out definitively what has happened to Yushchenko?
PILGRIM: It's going to be difficult, although medical experts tell me it is possible to determine. They just need to do additional tests on Yushchenko to find out.
DOBBS: And to put this in further context, in addition to the beheading and the assaults on journalists over the course of the past 10 years, assassination has been part of the political process in point of fact in the Ukraine for some time.
PILGRIM: Many people who follow human rights in the Ukraine point out there have been many suspicious car accidents with opposition candidates over the last 10 years, and they think that that points to a pattern.
DOBBS: And with all of the courage then that we're witnessing in the streets in Kiev and around Ukraine, it looks as though democracy is truly taking hold.
PILGRIM: One would hope.
DOBBS: At least we can take that to positive conclusion.
Thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, a federal judge in Arizona has blocked the will of the people and a landmark proposal that would have cracked down of benefits being bestowed upon those who are not citizens. A judge in Tucson has temporarily blocked Arizona's Proposition 200 which Arizona voters passed by an overwhelming margin. It would have become law today.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Approved by the voters last month, Arizona's Proposition 200 is now a hostage to the courts, under assault from the same legal group that wiped out California's Prop 187 a decade ago. A last-minute lawsuit by MALDEF, the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund, argues the law denying state benefits to illegals is unconstitutional and vague.
HECTOR VILLAGRA, MALDEF ATTORNEY: Nobody today knows what benefits Prop 200 applies to, and there's no better evidence of this than the fact that the proponents don't agree. You have one side saying it applies to welfare benefits. You have another side saying it applies to everything. VILES: Federal Judge David Bury, a Bush appointee, issued a temporary restraining order late Tuesday saying he was in an "extremely undesirable position" of delaying the will of the voters, but that "Proposition 200 requires and deserves time for thoughtful deliberation."
The framers for Prop 200 say the law simply requires the state to enforce existing federal laws and will survive the courts.
RANDY PULLEN, YES ON PROP 200: You can never say that it's guaranteed, but I think we're on a pretty sound constitutional law basis and we're confident that we will prevail on this.
VILES: But there is concern that Arizona's governor and attorney general -- both of them opposed Prop 200 -- won't fight hard enough to defend the law and the will of the voters.
KATHY MCKEE, PROTECT ARIZONA NOW: I think that they have demonstrated pretty strong evidence that they think we're stupid and that they can tell us that they're going to honor the will of the people and defend this vigorously, but their actions don't confirm that at all.
VILES: Governor Janet Napolitano says she was prepared to sign the law today until the judge ruled last night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: The next step in this legal drama: a hearing in Tucson in three weeks. Tucson, by the way, is located in one of the very few Arizona counties that voted against Prop 200 last month -- Lou.
DOBBS: Pete, what is interesting in this as well is the judge's statement saying that he is not making this ruling in any way based on the merits of the case. That being the case, why not allow it to become law?
VILES: Well, the state didn't go in there and say that there would be any harm to the state if there's a delay. The opponents, the plaintiffs came in and said if you put this law in the books now, there's going to be tremendous harm, we're going to lose social services. The state did not come in in this emergency hearing yesterday and say we'll be harmed if you stay it.
DOBBS: So there may be some reason for concern on the part of those in Arizona who believe that the state's attorney general and the state's governor, Janet Napolitano, aren't providing the kind of impetus behind this initiative that they should.
VILES: Exactly. There is concern that the governor and the attorney general are not going to fight hard enough and have not been fighting hard enough. There's a lot of pressure on them. These groups that support Prop 200 say they will intervene so that the attorney general will not be alone defending this law. The people who supported the law originally will be there at the table in the courtroom defending it -- Lou. DOBBS: Peter Viles.
Thank you very much.
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question: Do you believe illegal aliens have the constitutional right to enjoy the benefits of American citizenship? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Coming up next, bribes, kickbacks, corruption at the United Nations, just a few of the reasons my next guest says Kofi Annan must go. I'll be joined by Senator Norm Coleman.
Later here, our special report, "Overmedicated Nation." Tonight the sky-high cost of prescription drugs forcing some people to find cheaper alternatives across the border. Their health and their lives, though, may be in jeopardy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The cost of prescription drugs in this country rising at such a staggering rate that nearly 40 percent of us can no longer afford to fill our prescriptions. Instead, millions are choosing to look for cheaper alternatives in other countries, and that decision could be putting lives at risk.
Casey Wian reports from Tijuana, Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every morning, Americans cross the Mexican border to buy prescription drugs at a fraction of the price they'd pay at home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm between insurance at the moment, and so I buy the asthma medicine down here.
WIAN: San Diego resident Socrates Torres (ph) came to Tijuana for antibiotics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're like 35 bucks over there. You get it for 15 bucks down here.
WIAN: Robert Patten (ph) says Zoloft is a third of the price in Tijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure it pisses me off. We're being ripped off.
WIAN: Pharmacies here offer a dizzying array of drugs.
MIGUEL PINCON, TIJUANA PHARMACIST: If it's not a controlled substance, you can buy it over the counter. If it's a controlled substance, you need to require a Mexican prescription.
WIAN: Those are easily obtained at local clinics. Though most drugs sold here are identical to what's prescribed by U.S. doctors, no one knows how much is counterfeit.
(on camera): The high cost of prescription drugs in the United States created a drugstore boom in places like Tijuana. There are now about 1,300 pharmacies here.
(voice-over): But recently business has slowed. One reason: competition from Internet drug sales.
WILLIAM HUBBARD, ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER, FDA: FDA is very concerned when an American patient goes outside the normal system for buying drugs, whether it means traveling to another country or going on the Internet, that that patient is highly likely to end up with a bad drug, a counterfeit drug, a dangerous drug.
WIAN: Immigration and Customs agents say large quantities of counterfeit prescription drugs are smuggled into the United States from Mexico, India and elsewhere. Some supply Internet pharmacies; others, back-room medical clinics catering to the growing illegal alien population.
GREG SCHULTE, IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: They're making lots and lots of money. They're laundering that money. They may be engaged in other violations as well. There are health problems with the self-medication and with the fact that you don't know how it was manufactured. Ninety-five percent of it could be fine. I'm not sure I want to throw the dice.
WIAN: But every day online and across the border, millions of Americans gamble on those odds.
Casey Wian, CNN, Tijuana, Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Thirteen hundred pharmacies in Tijuana.
Well, we'll have much more on our overmedicated nation coming up next here. Dr. Alastair Wood of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Dr. Jerry Avorn of Harvard Medical School will be here. They'll be debating the FDA's ability to protect our health and our lives and whether the institution is even worth reforming.
Also ahead here tonight, why Kofi Annan's days at the United Nations could be numbered. Senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota is leading the Senate investigation into the corrupt oil-for-food program. He is our guest here next.
And a gunfight breaks out steps away from Secretary of State Colin Powell while in Haiti. We'll have that report and a great deal more still ahead here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Senator Norm Coleman is leading the investigation into the United Nations Oil-for-Food scandal. He and I will be talking here in just a few moments. Senator Coleman is also calling for the resignation of U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan. Let's take a quick look at some of the top news stories tonight.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon today losing a key budget vote with members of his own coalition, voting against the bill. Sharon has vowed to fire anyone who voted against the budget bill raising questions about the future of Sharon's minority government.
In Haiti, gunfire broke out today just outside the presidential palace where Secretary of State Colin Powell was meeting with Haitian officials. It was unclear whether the shots were being fired at the palace or whether the secretary of state could possibly have been the target. State Department officials say neither Powell nor anyone in his entourage was injured.
Some temperatures in parts of California tonight as low as those in parts of Canada. Residents in San Francisco, Los Angeles and Oakland seeing record setting low temperatures for the past several days. Some as low as 19 degrees in the Solinas Valley. More record lows are forecast for tonight.
My next guest is leading the Senate investigation into the United Nations Oil-for-Food program. He says that while many questions remain unanswered, one conclusion is certainly clear: Secretary- General Kofi Annan must go.
Senator Norm Coleman joins me tonight from St. Paul, Minnesota. Good to have you with us, Senator.
SEN. NORM COLEMAN, (R) MINNESOTA: Good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: This Oil-for-Food program, the corruption, obviously widespread, the moneys unaccounted for by the United Nations, yet, Senator, as you well know, there is also an investigation being led by the imminent Paul Voelcker. Why not wait for his investigation?
Because Paul Voelcker is going to have to submit his report to Kofi Annan. And one thing we do know, there's a lot we don't know, Lou. We haven't tracked all the money, which I figure out -- is it fueling the insurgency taking American lives and coalition lives and Iraqi lives, but we know one thing, that Kofi Annan was the head of the secretariat that had the responsibility overseeing this program. And Saddam walked away with billions in which he was able to fund terrorism, which was to buy weaponry and was able to bribe folks were tied to member nations. So we know all that.
That this makes Enron look like chump change. I don't think -- I never heard any argument that Ken Lay needed to resign from Enron before all the trials. We know he was in charge. Kofi Annan has been in charge. Voelcker will have to submit a report to Kofi Annan. And in that report, what he finds what we find to have credibility, the guy that was in charge of the program when the fraud and the abuse took place needs to step aside so there can be transparency and there can be credibility here.
DOBBS: Kofi Annan's son, Kojo, turns out was accepting money for a very long time through a company under contract to the United Nations. The secretary-general says he didn't know that. What is your reaction?
COLEMAN: Lou, I don't know what he knows. I do know that this is just another shot. This is another question of credibility. Kojo received money from CoTech (ph), a company that was supposed to be overseeing the program under the auspices of the secretariat. He was getting paid for 5 years. In fact, up until very recently.
I don't know what Kofi Annan knows, but I do know he was in charge of the program. And he's not a disinterested party. When these reports come in when Volcker does his investigation, I do mine, you've got a secretary-general whose son may have been involved, who's hand picked person, Benon Sevan, that he picked to oversee the program, that we have documentation that he took bribes from Saddam Hussein.
I don't know if all this is true. And we're going to find out if it's true. But the bottom line is that the guy overseeing the program, and responsible for overseeing the program, the Secretary- General allowed this to take place, or -- and again, I'm not pointing a finger of accusation, but he was there when the bribery occurred, when the malfeasance occurred, when the fraud occurred, and needs then to step down so that can you have the credibility that you need in order to ferret out the abuse at whatever level it took place.
DOBBS: As you know, Senator, there are those in Congress who say the United Nations, whether Kofi Annan steps down or not, will have no credibility. That it is an institution that is irrelevant, and frankly inimical to the interest to the United States. How do you respond to that?
COLEMAN: I'm one of those believe that's the United States shouldn't be the sole policeman in this world. And that it's to our benefit to have the United Nations that can move into areas like the Sudan where there's need for folks to be protected.
But they're not going to be able to move if the organization so lacks credibility. If allegations of corruption rise to the highest level, and the person, again, responsible for overseeing the program under his watch, simply continues to stay in power, to stay in place, I think we're on a path, right now, where the U.S./U.N. relationship is in jeopardy and in part, it's in jeopardy, because of a lack of confidence, lack of credibility. Kofi Annan can help his own cause by stepping aside, doing the right thing and allowing us to ferret out the levels of corruption.
DOBBS: And Senator, as you know, some of your colleagues in Congress are also suggesting that the United States withhold funding of the United Nations until there is a favorable response to your request for more information, more evidence, more documents. What's your thought?
COLEMAN: Lou, I don't think we're at that point yet. But I've got to tell you, we're walking down that path. From my perspective, Kofi Annan eventually is going to resign. That you're going to see allegation after allegation, new story after new story, keep unfolding. This thing has layers and layers. And it's only going to get worse before it gets better.
And ultimately, if the United Nations doesn't do the things that have to be done to reinstate some level of credibility, with providing greater transparency, then in the end, the U.S./U.N. relationship is going to jeopardized. We're walking down that path. We're not there yet. But I think it's up to Kofi Annan to take some steps to restore some of the lost credibility.
DOBBS: Senator Norm Coleman, thanks for being here.
COLEMAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next, is the FDA equipped to protect our lives from the risk of dangerous prescription drugs? Two leading experts join me next to debate this critically important issue.
And President Bush returns home to face a new set of political challenges as he prepares to enter his second term. Three of the country's leading political journalists join us next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On November 18, the Food and Drug Administration safety officer testified before Congress that this country is now faced with what he called a single greatest drug safety catastrophe in our history.
Dr. David Graham testified that the FDA is not doing enough to protect the health and lives of Americans. And that's the subject of our "Face-Off" tonight.
Joining me here in New York is Dr. Alastair Wood, he's associate dean of the Vanderbilt University Medical Center, and from Massachusetts, Dr. Jerry Avorn, professor at Harvard Medical School, author of the book "Powerful Medicines."
Gentlemen, good to have you with us. Let me begin, Dr. Wood. At this point, David Graham in the minds of many, and I would include myself, has done a great public service to bring criticism of the FDA forward and to raise questions about the safety and the ways in which we've gone about determining the safety of a number of drugs, do you agree with that?
DR. ALASTAIR WOOD, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CTR.: He's certainly done a good job. He's got a history of having identified problems before they really had the Vioxx and many others before this. This is not his first run at this. And he's identified a problem, he's identified the fact that we totally missed this or at least the FDA missed this, and he was raising this before it became public, and he certainly worked hard at doing that. It's very unfortunate that the FDA's attacking the messenger here rather than attacking the problem, which is proviso, I think.
DOBBS: And Dr. Avorn, your thoughts?
DR. JERRY AVORN, PROF., HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: I fully agree. I think that the fact that Americans are now talking about this and that the Senate is having hearings about this and the patients and doctors are asking each other about these issues is an important development. It's not a bad thing, it's a good thing, because we do need to be a little bit more on edge about the way FDA has been doing business.
DOBBS: And, the remarkable thing is that this is an employee of the FDA performing that service for this agency, having to stand up as a whistle-blower, if you will, against his own agency.
WOOD: He wasn't standing up just on his own. The paper that caused so much commotion was a paper he wrote with very good people. Well-recognized authorities in the field, and that's the people the FDA are attacking. What's extraordinary here, I think, is they're attacking that even after its become crystal clear to everybody including Merck itself that this drug was dangerous and was withdrawn. This was a drug the FDA themselves and other outside experts has estimated to have cost somewhere up to 140,000 heart attacks in the United States.
DOBBS: This drug being?
WOOD: Being Vioxx.
DOBBS: And Dr. Avorn, your reaction to that?
AVORN: What is particularly worrisome is that in addition to the fact that Dr. Graham who is a very responsible and productive scientist has this concern, a predecessor of his a couple of months earlier was making a similar complaint that he had found an association between some antidepressants and suicidal thoughts in teenagers, and he was told as an FDA scientist, by his own agency to quiet down and not present the findings. So this is a pattern that is worrisome.
DOBBS: A pattern that is worrisome. The Journal of American Medical Associations calling for an independent drug safety board. Is that the right answer?
WOOD: I think it is. I think -- visualize this, we've got 139,000 of whatever the estimate is of heart attacks caused by this drug. That's the equivalent of say 900 fully loaded 150-seat aircraft crashing in this country. Can you imagine us having something like that without an investigation.
DOBBS: If you would, Dr. Wood, again...
WOOD: The number -- the estimates range from 80,000 to 139,000 heart attacks caused by Vioxx. DOBBS: Incredible.
WOOD: Think about the effort we've put into investigating 9/11. That was a tragedy which killed up to 3,000 people. We've had incredible intervention since then, and this is much larger than that. And we're casually talking about it as though it was nothing.
DOBBS: I don't think we're casually talking about it any longer. Certainly not here. And certainly not tonight. Dr. Avorn, do you agree with the idea of a drug safety board?
AVORN: I think that would help, but it's important to realize that the problem is even more fundamental than that. If the board that is created does not have any better funding than the current office of drug safety has, and if it doesn't have any more mandate to demand that companies do the studies that could have been done with Vioxx in the year 2000 and we wouldn't be in this fix today, if those changes are not made it doesn't matter whether we call it a separate board or office of drug safety or the man in the moon. What we need is a fundamental rethinking about the clout and the funding and the mandate that FDA or any agency has about these issues.
WOOD: We need to, also, I think, move to understand why we need a drug safety board. We need a drug safety board to protect the three constituencies here. The first constituency are patients. They need to know that there's transparency, they need to know that there is an independent group looking at this. The second group though funnily enough that I think needs protected actually is the FDA itself, and my greatest fear is that -- one of my great fears is that what will happen now is that the FDA will run scared, and they will slow up drug approvals, they will be afraid to, approve drug, and that in itself will be a major problem, and the third group actually is the pharmaceutical companies who have gone through this a number of times now, have mass torts immediately after these occur, and we need to have a system in place where we can investigate these things properly and give some protection.
DOBBS: Dr. Avorn, you get the last word.
AVORN: I think we need to ask ourselves whether the Food and Drug Administration is there to protect patients or to make sure that drugs get approved as quickly as possible. We didn't need Vioxx that quick, we needed a better approval process and waiting a little bit longer to get it right would not have been a problem for the patients of the United States.
DOBBS: And at this juncture, patients obviously are facing great confusion and uncertainty as a result of what is happening and that lands squarely at feet of the FDA. Doctors, we thank you both for being here. We hope you will be back. Dr. Wood, Dr. Avorn, thank you very much for being here, come back soon.
We'll have much more on this health care crisis tomorrow, for example. We'll be joined by FDA whistle-blower Dr. David Graham. He'll be here to talk about what the problem is at the FDA. His views on this overmedicated nation, and the risks that millions of us are facing each day as a result of failures to properly regulate and provide oversight of the drug industry.
Still ahead here, why Wall Street is so happy that we're emptying our pockets. And we'll have that report as well as President Bush, blasting the United Nations during his visit to Canada. Three of the nation's top political journalists join me next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Wall Street today, stocks rallied. Wall Street loves the latest government report showing our income and spending higher in October. It's good for Wall Street, but it certainly may not be so good for normal Americans. Christine Romans is here with the story.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Americans are spending money faster than they're earning it. While that's good news, consumer spending up 7/10 of a percent. Economists say they're using credit cards to do that. Heavily relying on credit cards to do that. In fact American consumers expected to charge $3.7 billion on their credit cards every day until Christmas, and that's not counting grocery bills and gasoline bills.
At the same time, the savings rate in this country fell to a measly 0.2 percent, the lowest in three years. And real disposable income, what's left after you adjust for inflation and taxes, it was up only 0.2 percent. American consumers are spending with abandon and so is their government. That's why dollar is at a record low against the Euro. A 12 year low against the British pound, and you've got us importing more and more, and still exporting American jobs overseas.
DOBBS: Do you notice, Christine, after the election is over, the front page of the "Wall Street Journal," a number of other publications started to take note what we've been reporting here for the past year. That the trade deficit is at record level, we're borrowing $2.6 billion a day. Totally unsustainable debt levels and imagine with the election behind us, people are starting to pay attention.
ROMANS: Definitely in the dollar paying attention for some time now. And I want to bring you quickly to Microsoft, wildly bullish on India, plans today add a camp us in Bangalore, Lou. They want to tap into promising computer science students coming out of universities there.
DOBBS: How long do you think that the middle class in this country is going to allow corporate America to play us for chumps. I mean, basically what they're saying is one, we don't want the jobs and therefore, they're going to outsource them because we're not educated enough. They're going to build plants in other countries and send American processors there because their students are better. Meanwhile our schools are going down hill and we're accepting it as if it were simple destiny. And I certainly hope it is not. Christine Romans, thank you.
Joining me three of this countries leading political journalists in Washington, Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times", Karen Tumulty "Time" magazine. Joining us from Halifax, Nova Scotia, our own senior White House correspondent, John King. He's been traveling with the president.
And Ron, let me begin with you. The president is facing a few challenges, specifically intelligence reform. Does he have a chance in the world to moving ahead and does he, in fact, want to?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "L.A. TIMES": They're feeling a little more optimistic after meeting with Republicans in the retreat that's going on among the Congressional leadership. There's some hope that they can narrow the differences. We'll have to wait and see, Lou. I think, you put your finger on the right question. If the president wants this, given that there is a majority in all likelihood for it in both chambers. He should be able to get it more likely to deal with the chain of command issues in the end, that Duncan Hunter has raised, and the immigration issues that Jim Sensenbrenner has raised. I'm not sure you want that hear that. But that's where it seems to be this is heading at the moment.
DOBBS: There's a lot I don't like to hear, especially when it means, that someone is failing to represent those who send him to Congress, and that's happening in quite a few instances.
Karen, the idea that President Bush is now facing immigration reform, a host of other challenges upon his return in addition to intelligence reform, where do you think we go from here?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, I think that this whole clash over the immigration bill -- I mean over the intelligence bill is going to be a real telling moment here, you know, how much of the president's capital he is willing to spend, how much he is willing to defy his own Republican members in Congress? Because the fact is if he does try to push his immigration plans or anything else, he is going to have to be willing to stand up not only to Democrats but to Republicans as well.
DOBBS: And, John, do you have the sense that the president, while make nice with our friends to the north, is prepared to do harsh battle with members of his own party over immigration, intelligence reform and a host of other issues?
JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don't know if I use the term harsh battle, but Many think the president has to strike a new tone in the relationships. And they think one of the issue, some would say a problem, more outside the White House is that he's never vetoed legislation. So, he doesn't have a bad cop reputation if you will. A bad cop relationship with the Republican Party, where he's had to knock heads in any dramatic way before. So they're not saying this will be a harsh relationship, many inside and outside the White House say how this plays out will set a tone for this relationship for the second term.
BROWNSTEIN: You know, Lou, can I just jump in real quick?
DOBBS: Please.
BROWNSTEIN: With the Democrats being so out of power, really having no levers now. The question is whether outside forces really become the leverage here on some of the issues. You've been talking with Christine about the bond market and the dollar and the deficit. You know, James Carville famously said in 1993, "If I die, I want to come back as the bond market because it had so much influence." The question is whether that is an outside force, shaping the debate over the deficit, making the tax cut permanent. There's been more and more talk about funding a transition toward an individual account social security, simply adding to the national debt, possibly trillions of dollars. I think the Democrats may not be in position to deal with this very much.
DOBBS: That dog Ron -- that -- that particular I guarantee you will not hunt in Washington, D.C. Adding trillions of dollars isn't going to happen?
BROWNSTEIN: If it's not going to happen, it's going to be very hard to move forward, because I'm not sure they have another way to pay for it.
DOBBS: Well, one way that can't be accepted in this economy right now, and nor the conservatives in the Republican Party would be to take on any more debt it. Because it simply is not sustainable. It's arguable whether or not it's sustainable at these levels.
With that Karen Tumulty, John King and Ron Brownstein, we thank you for being here. We're fresh out of time. We appreciate it.
Still ahead, the results of "Tonight's Poll," a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of "Tonight's Poll," 5 percent of you say illegal aliens should have the constitutional right to enjoy the benefits of American citizenship, an overwhelming 95 percent say they should not.
Finally tonight after nearly 23 years at helm of NBC's "Nightly News," Tom Brokaw anchored his final broadcast. Brokaw has been anchor and managing editor of that broadcast since 1982. He is leaving in order to spend more time on his ranch in Montana with his family. Brokaw will continue to work with NBC on documentary projects as well. He has been throughout a good guy, and a class act. We wish him the very best, and of course, to Brian Williams as well.
That's our broadcast for this evening. Thanks for being with us. Please join us here tomorrow. We continue to look at our over medicated nation. Tomorrow we focus on why this country is so dependent on foreign drugs?
My guest will include FDA whistle-blower Dr. David Graham, who says the FDA is putting millions of our lives at risk each day. And Senator Joseph Lieberman joins me, he says intelligence reform legislation now stalled in Congress could be passed next week, if President Bush steps up. Please be with us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for being with us tonight. Good night from New York, "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired December 1, 2004 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, the United States is sending more soldiers to Iraq. The additional American force is needed to secure Iraq for its first election. We'll have a report from the Pentagon.
The Ukraine Parliament today threw out Prime Minister Yanukovych's government. The opposition is cheering. We'll report from the Ukraine on this building political crisis.
Rising calls for U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to resign in the oil-for-food scandal. Senator Norm Coleman says the evidence is overwhelming.
SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: The bottom line is one man was in charge, and when we get to the bottom of this, he's got to step back.
DOBBS: Senator Coleman is our guest tonight.
Arizona's Proposition 200 supported by a large majority of Arizona voters. A federal judge in Arizona has blocked the initiative from becoming law. We'll have a special report on whether the will of the people is being frustrated in this important border security reform.
Americans are crossing the Mexican border in droves to buy cheap prescription drugs with no guarantee they're the real thing. We'll have a special report on our "Overmedicated Nation," and a debate on whether the Food and Drug Administration is even worth reforming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday December 1. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the Pentagon is sending 1,500 new troops to Iraq, extending the tours of thousands more already there. The additional force will bring our troop strength in Iraq to 150,000. That's the highest level since the invasion began more than a year and a half ago.
Jamie McIntyre reports from the Pentagon. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With Iraq's fledgling security forces still a question mark, and thousands of U.S. forces still tied down in Falluja, the Pentagon is moving to boost overall American troop levels in Iraq by roughly 12,000 to beef up security for Iraqi elections now set for January 30.
Fifteen hundred fresh soldiers from the Army's 82nd Airborne, known as the 911 division, have gotten the word they'll be in Iraq by mid month. And in addition to the new soldiers, more than 10,000 other troops already in Iraq have been informed they'll be going home in March of next year instead of January.
Among the troops extended for two more months on the ground, 4,400 soldiers from the 25th Infantry Division, 3,500 from the 1st Cavalry Division, 2,300 Marines from the 31st MEU, and 160 soldiers from the 116th Transportation Company.
Currently, there are 138,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. With the extensions and new deployments, that number will swell to 150,000 by mid-January, an all-time high, eclipsing the peak of 148,000 American troops in Iraq of May of last year right after the invasion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And Lou, despite the obvious strain that this is putting on the U.S. military, the Pentagon continues to argue that its military force is not too small and that it's not suffering from any shortage of new recruits.
Nevertheless for some of these troops, this will be the second extension of their tour, first from ten to 12 months, then from 12 to 14 months. The Pentagon insists they won't be extended again and says they'll be given two extra months back home to make up for the extended tour -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, just, if you would, to help us understand how can the Pentagon with two extensions of our troops in Iraq, say that they have an adequate number of troops? This is -- this seems on its face mindless.
MCINTYRE: Well, you know, there's no question the Pentagon can get the job done, essentially by working harder and longer. What critics say is what clear -- what this clearly shows is by having to extend troops, having to use National Guard troops to the extent they're doing, that they need a larger military force to draw from. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in this position, you know.
And that's the ongoing debate. The Pentagon continues to insist this is a short-term problem that they can deal with more effectively by shifting things around. But that short-term problem has been going on now for quite some time.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, thank you very much, our senior Pentagon correspondent. President Bush returned from a two-day visit to Canada. President Bush now faces a number of challenges at home, including the battle in Congress over the stalled intelligence reform legislation.
John King is in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and has the report -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, here in Halifax, the president was trying to deal with one of his most urgent challenges on the global stage, trying to repair relationships frayed by the bitter debate over Iraq and other issues in his first term.
Mr. Bush sounding quote a conciliatory note here in Halifax, saying this new term offers a new opportunity to reach out and consult with friends.
But the president also not backing down at all from his decision to go to war in Iraq, saying that if countries including Canada expect him to enter into more multinational, multilateral diplomacy, then those countries must also bear the burden, the responsibility, if you will, of pushing the United Nations and other multilateral organizations so that when they deal with an issue there is action, not just speeches and meetings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The success of multilateralism is measured not merely by following a process, but by achieving results. The objective of the U.N. and other institutions must be collective security. Not endless debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now back at home, the president, we are told by senior aides, moving urgently to deal with the domestic challenge. That, the debate over that intelligence reform bill that would create a new national director of intelligence. It stalled, of course, last week because of Republican objectives in the House of Representatives.
Top Bush aides, including Karl Rove, his top strategist, and legislative advisers meeting today at a Republican congressional retreat with the leadership, trying to work on a compromise. We are told as early as tomorrow, the president himself will send a letter to the Congress outlining what he wants in that bill, and making clear he wants that bill dealt with in the next week or so.
And Lou, the president also, we are told, likely to pick up the phone before the week is out, have telephone conversation with the speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert, and the Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, again making clear he wants a bill.
Many in Congress still questioning that. They say they are getting mixed signals from the Bush administration. Senior Bush aides, though, are telling us tonight the president now views this as a credibility challenge, that he wants to get the Republican leadership, to get this legislation to his desk. Believing that how this debate plays out will also have an effect on the coming debates over spending, tax reform, Social Security reform and other big-ticket items in the second Bush term -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, the president, as you have reported and know full well, interceded directly with the Congress and the holdouts and the conference committee the week -- the week before Thanksgiving, and simply failed to push that legislation through.
What in the world make us think that there would be any different result this time?
KING: Well, No. 1, if the president releases a letter and has more public events, he would be putting his own credibility on the line in a very public way, and he's hoping that some Republican loyalty comes into play.
It will be interesting to see the language in that letter. We are told a draft that letter says the president supports the compromise that was agreed to last week. Congressman Sensenbrenner, Congressman Hunter and others refused to support that bill, and the House speaker refused to bring it to the floor, because there was dissension within the Republican caucus.
If the president signs off on that language, he will essentially be asking those two chairman in the House, Mr. Sensenbrenner and Mr. Hunter, to back down, and if they don't back down, asking the speaker of the house, Dennis Hastert, to make them. So seeing the letter from the president, Lou, will be the next big step.
DOBBS: And with those -- those congressmen in the House, about 100 Republicans, supporting both Congressman Hunter and Congressman Sensenbrenner, this has all of the earmarks of being a political showdown within the Republican ranks themselves.
John King, reporting from Halifax.
New calls tonight for U.N. Secretary-general Kofi Annan to resign. Senator Norm Coleman, who is leading the Senate investigation into the U.N. oil-for-food scandal, today said Secretary Annan must go.
Richard Roth is at the United Nations with the report -- Richard.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, they're circling the wagons here tonight at the United Nations. Pretty much a full rejection of Senator Coleman's resignation demand. The U.N. has heard others demand the call. However, no countries have stepped forward.
CNN asked the secretary-general and later his spokesman about Senator Coleman's demand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Secretary-general, Senator Norm Coleman said you should resign. Are you considering stepping down?
KOFI ANNAN, SECRETARY-GENERAL, UNITED NATIONS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: The U.N. spokesman, Fred Eckhard, was later asked about the demand by Senator Coleman to step down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: A few voices doesn't make a chorus. He has heard no calls for resignation for any member state. If there's some agitation on the issue, on the sidelines, that's fine. That's healthy debate. But he is intent on continuing his substantive work for the remaining two years and one month of his term.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Some 3,000 U.N. staffers on an internal e-mail, Lou, have pledged support for Annan and said the media reports on all of the oil-for-food stuff are biased and not based on facts. Ambassadors from Chile and Spain said it's all ridiculous.
However, some U.N. officials are worried about damage to the U.N. brand in their contacts with the business community, should this deteriorate in any way. Basically, Lou, they're waiting for proof before they really get worried here.
DOBBS: Proof of what, Richard?
ROTH: Proof of any type of corruption by senior U.N. officials, violations of U.N. laws by diplomats. They're just going to watch and wait. That's the way of the place. They're going to wait for the Volcker panel and some of these other congressional committees to finish their reports.
But it may be too late. There might be a lot of damage done to the U.N. as an institution before they really know what to do with the damage done.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
Richard Roth reporting from the United Nations.
And Senator Norm Coleman will be our guest here. We will be talking about why he says Kofi Annan must go and go now.
New developments tonight in the election crisis in the Ukraine. Opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko today agreed to end the siege of government buildings by thousands of his supporters. It came after a stunning defeat for his opponent in Ukraine's parliament.
Jill Dougherty reports from Kiev.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Opposition lawmakers exploded in cheers as the Ukrainian parliament voted to fire the government of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych, the candidate initially declared the winner in this disputed Ukrainian presidential election.
Surrounding the building, thousands of demonstrators who support the man who claims the election was stolen from him, Viktor Yushchenko. Rows of marchers in orange slickers and hard hats, the color of the Orange Revolution. Inside the fence, police shoulder to shoulder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yushchenko! Yushchenko!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yushchenko! Yushchenko!
DOUGHERTY: As lawmakers emerged from the building, they were mobbed by ecstatic supporters. But Prime Minister Yanukovych is digging in his heels.
VIKTOR YANUKOVYCH, PRIME MINISTER, UKRAINE (through translator): I will never recognize this decision. They approved the decision in political terms, but it is against the law, it is against the Constitution.
DOUGHERTY: A few hours later, the two warring candidates were standing almost side by side. Another round of talk brokered by international representatives, but they failed to resolve their political standoff, and they won't meet again until Ukraine's supreme court rules on opposition allegations that the election was filled with vote fraud.
The European Union's Javier Solana says new elections are likely.
JAVIER SOLANA, E.U. FOREIGN POLICY CHIEF: The better for political reasons, and the sooner the better for economic reasons. A longer process will deteriorate the economy and, therefore, will benefit nobody.
DOUGHERTY: Legal experts from both sides are beginning to discuss how Ukraine's election laws should be changed in order to allow new elections.
(on camera): Tonight, the opposition says it will stop blockading government buildings, and both sides vowed they will not resort to violence.
(voice-over): At Independence Square, the opposition set off fireworks, eager to celebrate anything that looks like a step toward ending this impasse.
Jill Dougherty, CNN, Kiev, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And still ahead here tonight, in the midst of this election crisis in Ukraine, a great mystery. Poisoned by politics? Ukrainian opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko looks very different today than he did when his campaign for the presidency of Ukraine began. We'll have a report tonight on his mysterious illness.
And a federal judge holds the will of voters hostage in Arizona, blocking an important proposal to crack down on providing taxpayer benefits to illegal aliens. We'll have that report coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: There is no lack of controversy in Ukraine's presidential election, and, amidst charges of a fixed election, a rigged election, intimidation of voters, opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko has undergone a dramatic change in his appearance. It's a change that he says is the result of an attempt on his life.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You can tell opposition candidate Viktor Yushchenko has been through hell. Early in the campaign, the 50-year-old was acclaimed for his movie star looks. Now his face is badly pockmarked. He says he was poisoned. Ukrainian officials denied any wrongdoing.
GLEN HOWARD, PRESIDENT, JAMESTOWN FOUNDATION: His poisoning incident actually occurred when he was invited to a dinner at the home of the head of the Ukrainian intelligence services. So that's when -- after appearing at that dinner, that's when he got sick.
PILGRIM: For five weeks, he was forced out of the campaign, being treated in a clinic in Austria for "chemical substances not normally found in food products." Experts think it could be dioxin.
DR. DARRELL RIGEL, NYU MEDICAL CENTER: The kind of changes that he has, the symptoms of the scarring, the very quick scarring that occurred, would be consistent with what you would see from somebody who had a very high dose of dioxin.
PILGRIM: Yushchenko said that was the second attempt on his life. Weeks earlier, his car was forced off the road.
Back in 2000, protests erupted when a Ukrainian journalist Georgiy Gongadze, who was critical of President Kuchma, was found beheaded in a ditch. Journalists were emboldened by those protests to challenge Kuchma this time, refusing to broadcast election results. The woman doing sign language during the broadcast instead signed to viewers the election was a fraud.
ADRIAN KARATNYCKY, FREEDOM HOUSE: Everything that is going on now, the real consolidation of the opposition into one movement, really happened around the murder of Gongadze because it sort of blew the lid off of how corrupt the system was.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now experts say those street protests a few years ago were the seeds of the protests we're seeing in Kiev today, and, today, after more than a week of protests, many Ukrainians are still willing to take a stand -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
This mystery -- is there any likelihood we're going to find out definitively what has happened to Yushchenko?
PILGRIM: It's going to be difficult, although medical experts tell me it is possible to determine. They just need to do additional tests on Yushchenko to find out.
DOBBS: And to put this in further context, in addition to the beheading and the assaults on journalists over the course of the past 10 years, assassination has been part of the political process in point of fact in the Ukraine for some time.
PILGRIM: Many people who follow human rights in the Ukraine point out there have been many suspicious car accidents with opposition candidates over the last 10 years, and they think that that points to a pattern.
DOBBS: And with all of the courage then that we're witnessing in the streets in Kiev and around Ukraine, it looks as though democracy is truly taking hold.
PILGRIM: One would hope.
DOBBS: At least we can take that to positive conclusion.
Thank you very much.
Kitty Pilgrim.
In "Broken Borders" tonight, a federal judge in Arizona has blocked the will of the people and a landmark proposal that would have cracked down of benefits being bestowed upon those who are not citizens. A judge in Tucson has temporarily blocked Arizona's Proposition 200 which Arizona voters passed by an overwhelming margin. It would have become law today.
Peter Viles reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Approved by the voters last month, Arizona's Proposition 200 is now a hostage to the courts, under assault from the same legal group that wiped out California's Prop 187 a decade ago. A last-minute lawsuit by MALDEF, the Mexican-American Legal Defense and Education Fund, argues the law denying state benefits to illegals is unconstitutional and vague.
HECTOR VILLAGRA, MALDEF ATTORNEY: Nobody today knows what benefits Prop 200 applies to, and there's no better evidence of this than the fact that the proponents don't agree. You have one side saying it applies to welfare benefits. You have another side saying it applies to everything. VILES: Federal Judge David Bury, a Bush appointee, issued a temporary restraining order late Tuesday saying he was in an "extremely undesirable position" of delaying the will of the voters, but that "Proposition 200 requires and deserves time for thoughtful deliberation."
The framers for Prop 200 say the law simply requires the state to enforce existing federal laws and will survive the courts.
RANDY PULLEN, YES ON PROP 200: You can never say that it's guaranteed, but I think we're on a pretty sound constitutional law basis and we're confident that we will prevail on this.
VILES: But there is concern that Arizona's governor and attorney general -- both of them opposed Prop 200 -- won't fight hard enough to defend the law and the will of the voters.
KATHY MCKEE, PROTECT ARIZONA NOW: I think that they have demonstrated pretty strong evidence that they think we're stupid and that they can tell us that they're going to honor the will of the people and defend this vigorously, but their actions don't confirm that at all.
VILES: Governor Janet Napolitano says she was prepared to sign the law today until the judge ruled last night.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: The next step in this legal drama: a hearing in Tucson in three weeks. Tucson, by the way, is located in one of the very few Arizona counties that voted against Prop 200 last month -- Lou.
DOBBS: Pete, what is interesting in this as well is the judge's statement saying that he is not making this ruling in any way based on the merits of the case. That being the case, why not allow it to become law?
VILES: Well, the state didn't go in there and say that there would be any harm to the state if there's a delay. The opponents, the plaintiffs came in and said if you put this law in the books now, there's going to be tremendous harm, we're going to lose social services. The state did not come in in this emergency hearing yesterday and say we'll be harmed if you stay it.
DOBBS: So there may be some reason for concern on the part of those in Arizona who believe that the state's attorney general and the state's governor, Janet Napolitano, aren't providing the kind of impetus behind this initiative that they should.
VILES: Exactly. There is concern that the governor and the attorney general are not going to fight hard enough and have not been fighting hard enough. There's a lot of pressure on them. These groups that support Prop 200 say they will intervene so that the attorney general will not be alone defending this law. The people who supported the law originally will be there at the table in the courtroom defending it -- Lou. DOBBS: Peter Viles.
Thank you very much.
VILES: Sure.
DOBBS: And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question: Do you believe illegal aliens have the constitutional right to enjoy the benefits of American citizenship? Yes or no. Cast your vote at cnn.com/lou. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Coming up next, bribes, kickbacks, corruption at the United Nations, just a few of the reasons my next guest says Kofi Annan must go. I'll be joined by Senator Norm Coleman.
Later here, our special report, "Overmedicated Nation." Tonight the sky-high cost of prescription drugs forcing some people to find cheaper alternatives across the border. Their health and their lives, though, may be in jeopardy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The cost of prescription drugs in this country rising at such a staggering rate that nearly 40 percent of us can no longer afford to fill our prescriptions. Instead, millions are choosing to look for cheaper alternatives in other countries, and that decision could be putting lives at risk.
Casey Wian reports from Tijuana, Mexico.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every morning, Americans cross the Mexican border to buy prescription drugs at a fraction of the price they'd pay at home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm between insurance at the moment, and so I buy the asthma medicine down here.
WIAN: San Diego resident Socrates Torres (ph) came to Tijuana for antibiotics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're like 35 bucks over there. You get it for 15 bucks down here.
WIAN: Robert Patten (ph) says Zoloft is a third of the price in Tijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure it pisses me off. We're being ripped off.
WIAN: Pharmacies here offer a dizzying array of drugs.
MIGUEL PINCON, TIJUANA PHARMACIST: If it's not a controlled substance, you can buy it over the counter. If it's a controlled substance, you need to require a Mexican prescription.
WIAN: Those are easily obtained at local clinics. Though most drugs sold here are identical to what's prescribed by U.S. doctors, no one knows how much is counterfeit.
(on camera): The high cost of prescription drugs in the United States created a drugstore boom in places like Tijuana. There are now about 1,300 pharmacies here.
(voice-over): But recently business has slowed. One reason: competition from Internet drug sales.
WILLIAM HUBBARD, ASSOCIATE COMMISSIONER, FDA: FDA is very concerned when an American patient goes outside the normal system for buying drugs, whether it means traveling to another country or going on the Internet, that that patient is highly likely to end up with a bad drug, a counterfeit drug, a dangerous drug.
WIAN: Immigration and Customs agents say large quantities of counterfeit prescription drugs are smuggled into the United States from Mexico, India and elsewhere. Some supply Internet pharmacies; others, back-room medical clinics catering to the growing illegal alien population.
GREG SCHULTE, IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: They're making lots and lots of money. They're laundering that money. They may be engaged in other violations as well. There are health problems with the self-medication and with the fact that you don't know how it was manufactured. Ninety-five percent of it could be fine. I'm not sure I want to throw the dice.
WIAN: But every day online and across the border, millions of Americans gamble on those odds.
Casey Wian, CNN, Tijuana, Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Thirteen hundred pharmacies in Tijuana.
Well, we'll have much more on our overmedicated nation coming up next here. Dr. Alastair Wood of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Dr. Jerry Avorn of Harvard Medical School will be here. They'll be debating the FDA's ability to protect our health and our lives and whether the institution is even worth reforming.
Also ahead here tonight, why Kofi Annan's days at the United Nations could be numbered. Senator Norm Coleman of Minnesota is leading the Senate investigation into the corrupt oil-for-food program. He is our guest here next.
And a gunfight breaks out steps away from Secretary of State Colin Powell while in Haiti. We'll have that report and a great deal more still ahead here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Senator Norm Coleman is leading the investigation into the United Nations Oil-for-Food scandal. He and I will be talking here in just a few moments. Senator Coleman is also calling for the resignation of U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan. Let's take a quick look at some of the top news stories tonight.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon today losing a key budget vote with members of his own coalition, voting against the bill. Sharon has vowed to fire anyone who voted against the budget bill raising questions about the future of Sharon's minority government.
In Haiti, gunfire broke out today just outside the presidential palace where Secretary of State Colin Powell was meeting with Haitian officials. It was unclear whether the shots were being fired at the palace or whether the secretary of state could possibly have been the target. State Department officials say neither Powell nor anyone in his entourage was injured.
Some temperatures in parts of California tonight as low as those in parts of Canada. Residents in San Francisco, Los Angeles and Oakland seeing record setting low temperatures for the past several days. Some as low as 19 degrees in the Solinas Valley. More record lows are forecast for tonight.
My next guest is leading the Senate investigation into the United Nations Oil-for-Food program. He says that while many questions remain unanswered, one conclusion is certainly clear: Secretary- General Kofi Annan must go.
Senator Norm Coleman joins me tonight from St. Paul, Minnesota. Good to have you with us, Senator.
SEN. NORM COLEMAN, (R) MINNESOTA: Good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: This Oil-for-Food program, the corruption, obviously widespread, the moneys unaccounted for by the United Nations, yet, Senator, as you well know, there is also an investigation being led by the imminent Paul Voelcker. Why not wait for his investigation?
Because Paul Voelcker is going to have to submit his report to Kofi Annan. And one thing we do know, there's a lot we don't know, Lou. We haven't tracked all the money, which I figure out -- is it fueling the insurgency taking American lives and coalition lives and Iraqi lives, but we know one thing, that Kofi Annan was the head of the secretariat that had the responsibility overseeing this program. And Saddam walked away with billions in which he was able to fund terrorism, which was to buy weaponry and was able to bribe folks were tied to member nations. So we know all that.
That this makes Enron look like chump change. I don't think -- I never heard any argument that Ken Lay needed to resign from Enron before all the trials. We know he was in charge. Kofi Annan has been in charge. Voelcker will have to submit a report to Kofi Annan. And in that report, what he finds what we find to have credibility, the guy that was in charge of the program when the fraud and the abuse took place needs to step aside so there can be transparency and there can be credibility here.
DOBBS: Kofi Annan's son, Kojo, turns out was accepting money for a very long time through a company under contract to the United Nations. The secretary-general says he didn't know that. What is your reaction?
COLEMAN: Lou, I don't know what he knows. I do know that this is just another shot. This is another question of credibility. Kojo received money from CoTech (ph), a company that was supposed to be overseeing the program under the auspices of the secretariat. He was getting paid for 5 years. In fact, up until very recently.
I don't know what Kofi Annan knows, but I do know he was in charge of the program. And he's not a disinterested party. When these reports come in when Volcker does his investigation, I do mine, you've got a secretary-general whose son may have been involved, who's hand picked person, Benon Sevan, that he picked to oversee the program, that we have documentation that he took bribes from Saddam Hussein.
I don't know if all this is true. And we're going to find out if it's true. But the bottom line is that the guy overseeing the program, and responsible for overseeing the program, the Secretary- General allowed this to take place, or -- and again, I'm not pointing a finger of accusation, but he was there when the bribery occurred, when the malfeasance occurred, when the fraud occurred, and needs then to step down so that can you have the credibility that you need in order to ferret out the abuse at whatever level it took place.
DOBBS: As you know, Senator, there are those in Congress who say the United Nations, whether Kofi Annan steps down or not, will have no credibility. That it is an institution that is irrelevant, and frankly inimical to the interest to the United States. How do you respond to that?
COLEMAN: I'm one of those believe that's the United States shouldn't be the sole policeman in this world. And that it's to our benefit to have the United Nations that can move into areas like the Sudan where there's need for folks to be protected.
But they're not going to be able to move if the organization so lacks credibility. If allegations of corruption rise to the highest level, and the person, again, responsible for overseeing the program under his watch, simply continues to stay in power, to stay in place, I think we're on a path, right now, where the U.S./U.N. relationship is in jeopardy and in part, it's in jeopardy, because of a lack of confidence, lack of credibility. Kofi Annan can help his own cause by stepping aside, doing the right thing and allowing us to ferret out the levels of corruption.
DOBBS: And Senator, as you know, some of your colleagues in Congress are also suggesting that the United States withhold funding of the United Nations until there is a favorable response to your request for more information, more evidence, more documents. What's your thought?
COLEMAN: Lou, I don't think we're at that point yet. But I've got to tell you, we're walking down that path. From my perspective, Kofi Annan eventually is going to resign. That you're going to see allegation after allegation, new story after new story, keep unfolding. This thing has layers and layers. And it's only going to get worse before it gets better.
And ultimately, if the United Nations doesn't do the things that have to be done to reinstate some level of credibility, with providing greater transparency, then in the end, the U.S./U.N. relationship is going to jeopardized. We're walking down that path. We're not there yet. But I think it's up to Kofi Annan to take some steps to restore some of the lost credibility.
DOBBS: Senator Norm Coleman, thanks for being here.
COLEMAN: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next, is the FDA equipped to protect our lives from the risk of dangerous prescription drugs? Two leading experts join me next to debate this critically important issue.
And President Bush returns home to face a new set of political challenges as he prepares to enter his second term. Three of the country's leading political journalists join us next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On November 18, the Food and Drug Administration safety officer testified before Congress that this country is now faced with what he called a single greatest drug safety catastrophe in our history.
Dr. David Graham testified that the FDA is not doing enough to protect the health and lives of Americans. And that's the subject of our "Face-Off" tonight.
Joining me here in New York is Dr. Alastair Wood, he's associate dean of the Vanderbilt University Medical Center, and from Massachusetts, Dr. Jerry Avorn, professor at Harvard Medical School, author of the book "Powerful Medicines."
Gentlemen, good to have you with us. Let me begin, Dr. Wood. At this point, David Graham in the minds of many, and I would include myself, has done a great public service to bring criticism of the FDA forward and to raise questions about the safety and the ways in which we've gone about determining the safety of a number of drugs, do you agree with that?
DR. ALASTAIR WOOD, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CTR.: He's certainly done a good job. He's got a history of having identified problems before they really had the Vioxx and many others before this. This is not his first run at this. And he's identified a problem, he's identified the fact that we totally missed this or at least the FDA missed this, and he was raising this before it became public, and he certainly worked hard at doing that. It's very unfortunate that the FDA's attacking the messenger here rather than attacking the problem, which is proviso, I think.
DOBBS: And Dr. Avorn, your thoughts?
DR. JERRY AVORN, PROF., HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: I fully agree. I think that the fact that Americans are now talking about this and that the Senate is having hearings about this and the patients and doctors are asking each other about these issues is an important development. It's not a bad thing, it's a good thing, because we do need to be a little bit more on edge about the way FDA has been doing business.
DOBBS: And, the remarkable thing is that this is an employee of the FDA performing that service for this agency, having to stand up as a whistle-blower, if you will, against his own agency.
WOOD: He wasn't standing up just on his own. The paper that caused so much commotion was a paper he wrote with very good people. Well-recognized authorities in the field, and that's the people the FDA are attacking. What's extraordinary here, I think, is they're attacking that even after its become crystal clear to everybody including Merck itself that this drug was dangerous and was withdrawn. This was a drug the FDA themselves and other outside experts has estimated to have cost somewhere up to 140,000 heart attacks in the United States.
DOBBS: This drug being?
WOOD: Being Vioxx.
DOBBS: And Dr. Avorn, your reaction to that?
AVORN: What is particularly worrisome is that in addition to the fact that Dr. Graham who is a very responsible and productive scientist has this concern, a predecessor of his a couple of months earlier was making a similar complaint that he had found an association between some antidepressants and suicidal thoughts in teenagers, and he was told as an FDA scientist, by his own agency to quiet down and not present the findings. So this is a pattern that is worrisome.
DOBBS: A pattern that is worrisome. The Journal of American Medical Associations calling for an independent drug safety board. Is that the right answer?
WOOD: I think it is. I think -- visualize this, we've got 139,000 of whatever the estimate is of heart attacks caused by this drug. That's the equivalent of say 900 fully loaded 150-seat aircraft crashing in this country. Can you imagine us having something like that without an investigation.
DOBBS: If you would, Dr. Wood, again...
WOOD: The number -- the estimates range from 80,000 to 139,000 heart attacks caused by Vioxx. DOBBS: Incredible.
WOOD: Think about the effort we've put into investigating 9/11. That was a tragedy which killed up to 3,000 people. We've had incredible intervention since then, and this is much larger than that. And we're casually talking about it as though it was nothing.
DOBBS: I don't think we're casually talking about it any longer. Certainly not here. And certainly not tonight. Dr. Avorn, do you agree with the idea of a drug safety board?
AVORN: I think that would help, but it's important to realize that the problem is even more fundamental than that. If the board that is created does not have any better funding than the current office of drug safety has, and if it doesn't have any more mandate to demand that companies do the studies that could have been done with Vioxx in the year 2000 and we wouldn't be in this fix today, if those changes are not made it doesn't matter whether we call it a separate board or office of drug safety or the man in the moon. What we need is a fundamental rethinking about the clout and the funding and the mandate that FDA or any agency has about these issues.
WOOD: We need to, also, I think, move to understand why we need a drug safety board. We need a drug safety board to protect the three constituencies here. The first constituency are patients. They need to know that there's transparency, they need to know that there is an independent group looking at this. The second group though funnily enough that I think needs protected actually is the FDA itself, and my greatest fear is that -- one of my great fears is that what will happen now is that the FDA will run scared, and they will slow up drug approvals, they will be afraid to, approve drug, and that in itself will be a major problem, and the third group actually is the pharmaceutical companies who have gone through this a number of times now, have mass torts immediately after these occur, and we need to have a system in place where we can investigate these things properly and give some protection.
DOBBS: Dr. Avorn, you get the last word.
AVORN: I think we need to ask ourselves whether the Food and Drug Administration is there to protect patients or to make sure that drugs get approved as quickly as possible. We didn't need Vioxx that quick, we needed a better approval process and waiting a little bit longer to get it right would not have been a problem for the patients of the United States.
DOBBS: And at this juncture, patients obviously are facing great confusion and uncertainty as a result of what is happening and that lands squarely at feet of the FDA. Doctors, we thank you both for being here. We hope you will be back. Dr. Wood, Dr. Avorn, thank you very much for being here, come back soon.
We'll have much more on this health care crisis tomorrow, for example. We'll be joined by FDA whistle-blower Dr. David Graham. He'll be here to talk about what the problem is at the FDA. His views on this overmedicated nation, and the risks that millions of us are facing each day as a result of failures to properly regulate and provide oversight of the drug industry.
Still ahead here, why Wall Street is so happy that we're emptying our pockets. And we'll have that report as well as President Bush, blasting the United Nations during his visit to Canada. Three of the nation's top political journalists join me next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On Wall Street today, stocks rallied. Wall Street loves the latest government report showing our income and spending higher in October. It's good for Wall Street, but it certainly may not be so good for normal Americans. Christine Romans is here with the story.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, Americans are spending money faster than they're earning it. While that's good news, consumer spending up 7/10 of a percent. Economists say they're using credit cards to do that. Heavily relying on credit cards to do that. In fact American consumers expected to charge $3.7 billion on their credit cards every day until Christmas, and that's not counting grocery bills and gasoline bills.
At the same time, the savings rate in this country fell to a measly 0.2 percent, the lowest in three years. And real disposable income, what's left after you adjust for inflation and taxes, it was up only 0.2 percent. American consumers are spending with abandon and so is their government. That's why dollar is at a record low against the Euro. A 12 year low against the British pound, and you've got us importing more and more, and still exporting American jobs overseas.
DOBBS: Do you notice, Christine, after the election is over, the front page of the "Wall Street Journal," a number of other publications started to take note what we've been reporting here for the past year. That the trade deficit is at record level, we're borrowing $2.6 billion a day. Totally unsustainable debt levels and imagine with the election behind us, people are starting to pay attention.
ROMANS: Definitely in the dollar paying attention for some time now. And I want to bring you quickly to Microsoft, wildly bullish on India, plans today add a camp us in Bangalore, Lou. They want to tap into promising computer science students coming out of universities there.
DOBBS: How long do you think that the middle class in this country is going to allow corporate America to play us for chumps. I mean, basically what they're saying is one, we don't want the jobs and therefore, they're going to outsource them because we're not educated enough. They're going to build plants in other countries and send American processors there because their students are better. Meanwhile our schools are going down hill and we're accepting it as if it were simple destiny. And I certainly hope it is not. Christine Romans, thank you.
Joining me three of this countries leading political journalists in Washington, Ron Brownstein of the "Los Angeles Times", Karen Tumulty "Time" magazine. Joining us from Halifax, Nova Scotia, our own senior White House correspondent, John King. He's been traveling with the president.
And Ron, let me begin with you. The president is facing a few challenges, specifically intelligence reform. Does he have a chance in the world to moving ahead and does he, in fact, want to?
RON BROWNSTEIN, "L.A. TIMES": They're feeling a little more optimistic after meeting with Republicans in the retreat that's going on among the Congressional leadership. There's some hope that they can narrow the differences. We'll have to wait and see, Lou. I think, you put your finger on the right question. If the president wants this, given that there is a majority in all likelihood for it in both chambers. He should be able to get it more likely to deal with the chain of command issues in the end, that Duncan Hunter has raised, and the immigration issues that Jim Sensenbrenner has raised. I'm not sure you want that hear that. But that's where it seems to be this is heading at the moment.
DOBBS: There's a lot I don't like to hear, especially when it means, that someone is failing to represent those who send him to Congress, and that's happening in quite a few instances.
Karen, the idea that President Bush is now facing immigration reform, a host of other challenges upon his return in addition to intelligence reform, where do you think we go from here?
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, I think that this whole clash over the immigration bill -- I mean over the intelligence bill is going to be a real telling moment here, you know, how much of the president's capital he is willing to spend, how much he is willing to defy his own Republican members in Congress? Because the fact is if he does try to push his immigration plans or anything else, he is going to have to be willing to stand up not only to Democrats but to Republicans as well.
DOBBS: And, John, do you have the sense that the president, while make nice with our friends to the north, is prepared to do harsh battle with members of his own party over immigration, intelligence reform and a host of other issues?
JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Don't know if I use the term harsh battle, but Many think the president has to strike a new tone in the relationships. And they think one of the issue, some would say a problem, more outside the White House is that he's never vetoed legislation. So, he doesn't have a bad cop reputation if you will. A bad cop relationship with the Republican Party, where he's had to knock heads in any dramatic way before. So they're not saying this will be a harsh relationship, many inside and outside the White House say how this plays out will set a tone for this relationship for the second term.
BROWNSTEIN: You know, Lou, can I just jump in real quick?
DOBBS: Please.
BROWNSTEIN: With the Democrats being so out of power, really having no levers now. The question is whether outside forces really become the leverage here on some of the issues. You've been talking with Christine about the bond market and the dollar and the deficit. You know, James Carville famously said in 1993, "If I die, I want to come back as the bond market because it had so much influence." The question is whether that is an outside force, shaping the debate over the deficit, making the tax cut permanent. There's been more and more talk about funding a transition toward an individual account social security, simply adding to the national debt, possibly trillions of dollars. I think the Democrats may not be in position to deal with this very much.
DOBBS: That dog Ron -- that -- that particular I guarantee you will not hunt in Washington, D.C. Adding trillions of dollars isn't going to happen?
BROWNSTEIN: If it's not going to happen, it's going to be very hard to move forward, because I'm not sure they have another way to pay for it.
DOBBS: Well, one way that can't be accepted in this economy right now, and nor the conservatives in the Republican Party would be to take on any more debt it. Because it simply is not sustainable. It's arguable whether or not it's sustainable at these levels.
With that Karen Tumulty, John King and Ron Brownstein, we thank you for being here. We're fresh out of time. We appreciate it.
Still ahead, the results of "Tonight's Poll," a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of "Tonight's Poll," 5 percent of you say illegal aliens should have the constitutional right to enjoy the benefits of American citizenship, an overwhelming 95 percent say they should not.
Finally tonight after nearly 23 years at helm of NBC's "Nightly News," Tom Brokaw anchored his final broadcast. Brokaw has been anchor and managing editor of that broadcast since 1982. He is leaving in order to spend more time on his ranch in Montana with his family. Brokaw will continue to work with NBC on documentary projects as well. He has been throughout a good guy, and a class act. We wish him the very best, and of course, to Brian Williams as well.
That's our broadcast for this evening. Thanks for being with us. Please join us here tomorrow. We continue to look at our over medicated nation. Tomorrow we focus on why this country is so dependent on foreign drugs?
My guest will include FDA whistle-blower Dr. David Graham, who says the FDA is putting millions of our lives at risk each day. And Senator Joseph Lieberman joins me, he says intelligence reform legislation now stalled in Congress could be passed next week, if President Bush steps up. Please be with us tomorrow. For all of us here, thanks for being with us tonight. Good night from New York, "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
