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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Aired December 3, 2004 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, unsolved murders, abductions and missing persons: Cases that leave the authorities desperate. No leads, no witnesses, nowhere for police and loved ones to turn, except their last resort: psychics. Can they really crack a homicide case by holding the victim's picture? Find a missing fashion model in a park the size of Rhode Island? Locate a kidnapped woman who can only survive 48 hours without her medication?
Solving those mysteries and more with Court TV's Psychic Detectives. Next on LARRY KING LIVE.
KING: Good evening. We'll discuss 4 fascinating cases involving psychic detectives tonight.
We begin in Los Angeles with Laurie McQuary. Laurie is a psychic. And joining us is Shawn Lucas, friend of the late Linda Solek, a Los Angeles model and actress whose disappearance made national headlines, Laura -- Laurie, do you specialize in criminal cases, or do you all kind of psychic?
LAURIE MCQUARY: PSYCHIC: I do a lot of the psychic work in general. I have an office business setting. And I would say probably at least 45 percent of what I do or cases. And I've been doing them over 25 years.
KING: Police contact you as well as individuals?
KING: Do you have to feel anything, have to be in an area, touch something?
MCQUARY: Not anymore. I have done this so long that actually it's more easier just for me to look at a picture. I can go to the location and get additional information but I don't have to.
KING: And Shawn, this case involves your wife Linda, you, and your best friend?
SHAWN LUCAS, KNEW MURDER VICTIM: My wife Lori Lucas. And then Linda Sobek was just a friend of Lori's.
KING: A friend of Lori's.
KING; Did your wife live in Los Angeles?
LUCAS: Yes. We both did.
KING: You both did? And she went missing when?
LUCAS: November of '95.
KING: And found when?
LUCAS: I believe about 7 days later.
KING: All right. Let's look at a clip of this case from Court TV's "Psychic Detectives." Then we'll get into it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: Hermosa Beach, California, 2 miles of sandy coastline gently serve curving along the Pacific. A young model and aspiring actress never shows up on set.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be late for something as important to her as her first TV chance was -- it was just -- we knew something was really wrong.
NARRATOR: Crucial information about her disappearance comes from a complete stranger.
MCQUARY: It's in my head. It's like a movie screen. And I see the imagery. I get the impressions.
NARRATOR: Can she help find a missing woman before it's too late?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Linda Sobek, obviously a gorgeous lady. She was also a Los Angeles Raider cheerleader when the Raiders played in L.A. before returning back to Oakland.
Shawn, how did you get involved with Laurie and psychics and the whole thing?
LUCAS: My father was murdered back in '87. And my mom had actually saw an article in the paper on Laurie McQuary and she kept it.
KING: At the time of his murder?
LUCAS: About a year before his murder. And she called Laurie up after she found him. We were trying to find who did it to my father. And Laurie was very helpful in giving us information and clues relating to my dad's death. KING: Was it eventually solved?
LUCAS: Yes, it was.
KING: Was she right?
LUCAS: Yes, she was.
KING: So, you called her when your wife's friend went missing?
LUCAS: Right. We returned back from a weekend getaway. And we called her up and asked her some questions regarding Linda's disappearance.
KING: What's the first thing you do, Laurie, when you get something like this?
MCQUARY: I get a feeling.
KING: Just from the phone call?
MCQUARY: Yep. And I usually request a picture and a birth date. I did not have a good feeling about her. Of course, I'd heard it on the news. So I had another impression even before I talked to him.
KING: What does the birth date mean?
MCQUARY: It's a focus. It's just a focus.
KING: Do you have to meet with Shawn and his wife?
MCQUARY: No. In fact, I'd not met Shawn. I'd met most everybody else in his family. And he had lived out of state.
KING: You live in Florida now.
MCQUARY: I live in Florida now, yeah.
KING: You live in Portland, Oregon, right?
KING: So you do this or what? Do you get a map? What do you do? OK, you get a what?
MCQUARY: Well first, of course, people want to know if this person missing is alive or not. And that's one of the most difficult areas to deal with, especially if I'm talking with family. It's much easier with law enforcement, because that's objective. But with family, and in this case, I did not deal with Linda's family. I was dealing with friends.
KING: Did Linda have family?
MCQUARY: Yes. But I did relate to Shawn almost immediately that I did not feel she was alive. KING: Can you explain what feeling comes over you?
MCQUARY: It's a heaviness. It's hard to explain. But it's -- I know. It's a knowing. Have I been wrong? Sure. But I've also been right. So I have to trust what I get. And it's years and years of practicing and working with it.
KING: And did you help locate the body?
MCQUARY: We were talking by cell phone. And they were looking, not just them, but the police, everyone was looking in L.A. where her car had been found. And I felt that she was up in the forest. I felt that he had taken her up into the mountains.
In fact, that's what I told him. We were starting up the roads to the mountains. And he would call me by cell phone. I would be in session with clients I have and the phone would be ringing and my secretary would say, Shawn's on the phone. And I would talk to him. It was line we were piecemealing it. But it's important, the energy exchange. Because I was picking up things from him.
KING: Where was she found?
LUCAS: In the forest up in a bluff.
LUCAS: Murdered, yeah. When I first spoke to Laurie McQuary on the phone, she had my wife Lori get off the phone. And she said, I don't think she's alive. And, of course, me being an optimist, I thought maybe there's hope. I never told Linda's parents, Bob and Elaine, what Laurie had said to me, obviously.
And then she indicated, because they found some photos, one of the forest workers found some photos of Linda up in the Angeles National Forest. And she had indicated that we needed to go up there and go past that location.
So we drove past that location. And because of my father's murder case, we realized that a body is going to be near the road. And so we went to certain turnouts on the way up the road. Within about 40 minutes had noticed -- found the item, found the bag.
KING: How was she killed?
LUCAS: She was raped and I believe strangled.
KING: Did you work on catching the perpetrator, Laurie?
MCQUARY: No, not that part. We were more concerned about finding her and getting to that as quickly as possible.
KING: Did they ever catch the killer?
LUCAS: He was arrested within 7 days of her missing. KING: We'll take a break and be right back. Devoting the show tonight to Court TV's "Psychic Detectives." Laurie McQuary, one of the leading members of that crew. Shawn Lucas is with us.
We'll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: Investigators in Hermosa Beach, California have no leads in the disappearance of model Linda Sobek. Out of desperation, Linda's friend, Shawn Lucas, asks psychic, Laurie McQuary, for help.
MCQUARY: By the way, what is Linda's birthday again?
NARRATOR: Laurie tries to follow the journey through the victim's eyes.
Shawn was telling me that they were concentrating their search in L.A., close to where her car was found. I immediately sensed we needed to move out of that area, go up the main highway up out of L.A. towards the Los Angeles National Forest.
NARRATOR: Laurie pinpoints a location and directs Shawn to a scenic overlook. After just 30 minutes of searching, he notices something in the underbrush.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We look at four cases, extraordinary cases tonight, involving psychic detectives. We're continuing with Laurie McQuary and Shawn Lucas. Did the police question your being involved in this search?
MCQUARY: Not that I'd heard of.
KING: Did they question?
LUCAS: No, they asked how we found or got back up in the forest, how we found the bag. And of course, when we first told them that psychic Laurie McQuary worked on my dad's case and she got us up in the forest and told us the direction to go, that was pretty much the end of it. With respect to them asking me, how did you get up here? How did you find this?
KING: By the way when you found the bag were you a suspect?
KING: How did you come to find the bag?
LUCAS: It was my wife, Laurie and I and my brother-in-law Johnny, who is an off-duty police officer in a park. And we were actually walking near the lookout area. And Johnny actually saw something down below. Then we went over and looked at it and it was a leopard handbag. And went down to get the handbag.
KING: How do police generally regard you, Laurie?
MCQUARY: Well, with a...
MCQUARY: With a jaded look. You can't blame them. Because there's a lot of people out there who are not doing honest work. There's a lot of people who are. So you have to be judged individually.
KING: Do you ever offer your services like in the case of the missing girl in Utah?
MCQUARY: I'm very, very cautious about where I offer my services. I always find the case comes to me. I don't ambulance chase. I don't mean that unkindly. But I work pretty full-time as it is. I do cases I have been on my days off. That's all the time I've had.
KING: How do you charge?
MCQUARY: You know what, I've not charged for 21 years. I've always done them for nothing. But since I did Court TV last spring and we did your other show with Nancy Grace, I believe her name is, I had over 300 phone calls. And so I've had to start doing cases on my work time. So I just charge a basic fee for looking at a case. I work on it for as long as it takes.
KING: You were in Japan on a case, was it a missing person?
MCQUARY: Missing child. It's been missing for four years. And Japanese Nippon Television came to Oregon to film with me for six days about it. And they were encouraged because I feel the child is alive. They flew me over there.
MCQUARY: I don't think it's time for this child to be found just yet.
KING: What do you make of this, Shawn? As a layman?
LUCAS: I guess my experience with psychics began in high school. So the first one I met was a lady, Myrtle, in her 80s my mom took me to. And Myrtle was the one that told my oldest brother one of his dads was going to die. Prior to my dad dying. And we thought it was Tim's stepfather Arthur. And so after that experience came true, you're a believer. Then, of course, meeting Laurie in my dad's case, having her help out in that case, she had a lot of bad feelings about the case.
KING: Can psychics foretell the future?
MCQUARY: I believe so. I believe that energy is out there. KING: That means it's preordained?
MCQUARY: Some things are. When people come in to see me for a session, I like to make very clear that you're in charge of your life. I may tell you what's coming down the road, but you're still going to make choices. I don't think predictions are cast in stone.
KING: Are you always honest? Will you always say, I think this person is gone?
MCQUARY: Well, yes. And that's why when I work with a family in particular, I will say what are your feelings? Most people, of course, will want to believe their child is alive but I will tell them what I think. And I think that is important. That's part of an honest reply.
KING: Did you keep in touch about Laurie's findings with Linda's family?
LUCAS: Yes, I spoke with Elaine Sobek this morning. She's doing well. This is a heavy time for her because last week was the ninth year anniversary of Linda's disappearance and findings.
KING: During the time, did you keep in touch?
LUCAS: Yes. I talked to Laurie every day, many times during the day.
KING: Did Linda's parents tend to dismiss it?
LUCAS: No, they were pleased that we were using some help. Obviously, when we found the bag so quickly, there was obviously the media in Los Angeles went up into the forest and we had a lot of people up there looking in the forest at that time. So I think it was very helpful. It was probably one of the reasons why the case was solved so quickly.
KING: Is it possible to explain what you're tuning into?
MCQUARY: No. I wish I could. I'd sell it. I'm teasing, of course. It's an energy out there. It's almost like -- I think of it like electricity. You can't always see electricity until you flip the switch on. I think we all have something of it. I think if people trust it and practice it, why, they will discover it.
KING: You're a good friend, Shawn.
LUCAS: Thank you.
KING: Thank you, Laurie. Laurie McQuary and Shawn Lucas. That's case number one from Court TV's "Psychic Detectives." More ahead, don't go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: With the help of a psychic, Shawn Lucas has found Linda Sobek's purse in the Angeles National Forest. Once again, he turns to Laurie McQuary for help in solving the case. Laurie focuses on the person who ended Linda's life.
MCQUARY: This had been in association with someone connected to film work or photography.
NARRATOR: Finally, police get the break they need when investigators back at Angeles National Forest find hidden treasure in the trash.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recovered a rental agreement for a Lexus.
NARRATOR: The rental agreement bears the signature of an automotive photographer named Charles Rathbun. Charles Rathbun's story about accidentally killing Linda Sobek begins to unravel. Rathbun is charged with first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Linda's friends are convinced that Laurie played a critical part in the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Laurie's involvement was important. Because it got the search up in the mountains.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Joining us now in Toledo, Ohio is Gale St. John. She's the psychic. And Raleigh Hendrickson, father of Stacy Hendrickson who went missing from her apartment. Let me go over this. Raleigh's daughter Stacy disappears from her home in the deserts southwest, apparently the victim of a kidnapping. Her special medical condition requires she be found quickly. So police in her hometown end up getting help from an unlikely resource. Here's a clip from Court TV's "Psychic Detective."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: A young woman disappears from her apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had obviously been taken. But we had no idea who did it.
NARRATOR: Investigators work through the night, knowing time is of the essence. But by (AUDIO GAP) no closer to identifying the suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were getting to the end of our list. We had chased down all our leads. We were running out of people to talk to. We just didn't know where to go. We knew Stacy was running out of time.
NARRATOR: Then, a woman (AUDIO GAP).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone was reaching out to me, forcing me to see what was happening.
NARRATOR: Can a complete stranger help police solve a mystery?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Gale St. John, is that what you do? Do you deal a lot with mysteries as a psychic?
Gale ST. JOHN, PSYCHIC: Well, I don't go out looking for them. But if someone comes to me, yes, I do help them.
KING: How do people know about you?
ST. JOHN: Basically, it pretty much has been word of mouth.
KING: Raleigh, what happened with your daughter? Give us the details and how you came to contact Gale.
RALEIGH HENDRICKSON, MURDER VICTIM'S FATHER: My daughter had spent the summer with us in Toledo here. All the neighbors knew when it happened. She come up missing, I told them after she went back to Arizona, and that every day they would ask, any new leads? Any new leads? Day in and out. After a few days went by, the lady across the street asked me if I'd be interested in speaking with a psychic. She said she knew a psychic that worked with the local police department in finding missing children. I said, at this point, sure. So she put me in contact with Gale.
KING: Was your daughter a student at the time?
HENDRICKSON: Yes, she was. At the local university there.
KING: I see. Now, Gale, what is the first thing you did when you were contacted by Raleigh? What happened?
ST. JOHN: I set up a time for him to come over. And told him that we would talk about what happened with her. And I'd find out if I could help her. I told him to bring a picture of her. And I would do my best to help him out.
KING: Your daughter was found killed, right, Raleigh?
HENDRICKSON: Yes, Larry. She was found about a mile from her home where she had been taken.
KING: For any purpose at all?
HENDRICKSON: The way I gather it, the guy who did it said he wanted to commit suicide and in hopes for the roommate and my daughter to talk him out of it. And he went there I think to get the roommate. Instead, she had went and spent the night at her mother's house. And I think my daughter wound up being the victim.
KING: Gale, you assisted, what, in finding the killer?
ST. JOHN: Yes, I did, as much as possible. I spoke with the detective. And we went over everything that I could see in detail. I tried to give him as much as possible. To describe where she was. And what direction he should go. And everything possible to be able to find her body.
KING: We're going to go to the tape now. The conversation between Gale and the detective turns up crucial information. Here's another clip from Court TV's "Psychic Detectives."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: Half a continent away, Stacy's father Raleigh Hendrickson is told the news of his daughter's disappearance. Hendrickson grows more distraught with every passing hour. Then, a family friend comes up with a strange idea.
HENDRICKSON: She knew a lady that was a psychic.
ST. JOHN: I tried to make him as comfortable as possible. Tell him, we're going to sit down and we'll see what I can see. Water. Cracked dirt. Palm trees. A small building. I knew where Stacy was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Gale, can you explain -- I know it may be difficult -- you don't know Arizona, do you?
ST. JOHN: No. I've never been there.
KING: What happens? In your head, what happens? What occurs?
ST. JOHN: When I was talking with the detective on the phone, my entire room just disappeared. And it was like I was in the area where her body was. I was actually living it. Feeling it. I was right there. My whole room became that area.
KING: Then you relate this to Raleigh and the detective?
ST. JOHN: Yes, I did.
KING: Is it hard to do when you come in your senses upon a tragedy?
ST. JOHN: No, it's not difficult at all. I've been doing it for so very long. It's like second nature.
KING: We'll take a break. When we come back, another shocking revelation that occurs in this case involving the late daughter of Raleigh Hendrickson and psychic Gale St. John. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away
KING: We're back with Gale St. John and Raleigh Hendrickson and the incredible story of how psychic detectives work. There's another aspect of this matter, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: It's a premonition of a second murder. ST. JOHN: He is going to go to the apartment. And do the same thing.
NARRATOR: And Gale knows the victim.
ST. JOHN: I saw the girl. It is the roommate.
NARRATOR: The psychic knows she plans to go out with Stacy's killer that very night. Reid asks the all-important question -- who is the man she plans to meet that night? The answer, John Barry Adams, a 24-year-old restaurant manager. The two girls had met him a couple of times in the days leading up to Stacy's disappearance.
Adams is brought in for questioning and to Reid's amazement the psychic is right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Barry Adams admitted to going to Stacy Hendrickson's apartment late that night, breaking in, she then became angry and he shot her to death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, that seems unexplainable, Gale, how you could focus in on a killer before he was about to kill, and then he actually turned out to be the killer of Raleigh's daughter. Is there any logical explanation for this?
ST. JOHN: I don't know if I'd call it logical. I mean, most people don't call it logical. But to me, it's logical. To use your psychic abilities to find out these things. Obviously, she was tied in with Stacy. So at that point, it's all going to follow suit. I mean, I'm going to pick up on everything. And that's what I did. And obviously, I couldn't save Stacy. But at that point, I could save another life.
KING: What do you make of all this, Raleigh?
HENDRICKSON: Well, at the beginning I was probably one of the biggest skeptics about psychics. To me they had a turban in their hair and a jewel on their forehead. I didn't believe in it.
When the neighbor put me in contact with Gale, I did tell her that I was going to call Detective Reid and tell him everything that she had told me. When I started explaining what she, Gale, had told me, to Detective Reid, he told me -- he says, "I recognize the area." And when they had found the body, which they didn't know was Stacy at the time, but I figured it was, we hopped on a plane here and went there.
Got there on a Wednesday. And on a Saturday, he came up to the hotel where I was at and took me for a ride. And he says, "I'm going to take you to the scene." He says, "can you handle it?" I say, "yeah, I'll handle it."
We're driving around Mesa, Arizona there, and I'd never been there either. All of a sudden, he pulls up to a light. And I told Reid to turn left here. And turn in -- turn into the driveway. He looked at me funny. He says, "how do you know?" I says, "well, if you look around you," I say, "there's a snap shot of everything that Gale described to a T, right down to the cracks in the dirt."
And it was astounding. It made me a believer. The hair raised on my arm, and it still does at this moment.
KING: Raleigh, when you first contacted the detective, did they tend to pooh-pooh this idea?
HENDRICKSON: I told Reid, I said, "I contacted a psychic through a neighbor." I say, "I really don't believe in these abilities," and he says, "Well, I really don't either, but we're running all these leads down," and they were getting nowhere. And I says, "well, I'm going to tell you what she told me. You take out of what you take out of it. And we'll go from there." And he responded to what I told him. And he knew exactly everything that I told him was right on the money. So much that he didn't want to give her abilities up.
KING: Let's take a call. Phoenix, Arizona, hello.
CALLER: Yes, Larry, good evening. I enjoy every show that you have on. Especially this one.
KING: Thank you. What's the question?
CALLER: Because the first -- Larry?
KING: Go ahead.
CALLER: OK, I would just like to say, my son was 35 years old -- when he was 5 years old, he told me my mother was going to die, go to heaven, and I wouldn't see her and I would cry. And a week after that, that's exactly what happened. And my son was 5 years old. He's 35 years old right now.
KING: Is he a psychic now?
CALLER: No, he's not. He works for Southwest Airlines.
KING: But he knew it then.
CALLER: Yes, he knew it then.
KING: OK, Gale, can children be psychics?
ST. JOHN: Yes. Absolutely. This is something that everyone is born with. Some people choose to perfect it. It is usually quite frequently stronger in children. Until more adults tell them, "oh, that's not so." Or tell them not to do those kind of things.
KING: Gale, do you actually, as Raleigh pointed out, he drove down the street and he knew the scene. Do you see the scene?
ST. JOHN: Oh, absolutely, 100 percent. Like I said, it's as if I am standing right there. KING: It's a little frightening, isn't it?
ST. JOHN: Not so much anymore. But you got to figure I have been doing this since I was a child. I -- it's just normal to me.
KING: Raleigh, what do you make of it? Does it make you think that things are -- if she was able to say this killer was on the way to kill another person, that means she saw technically into what was the future act.
HENDRICKSON: Yeah. It's astounding. I don't know what to say about it. totally baffles me. I know it's real. Here's a lady that didn't know me, didn't know my daughter, probably 2,000 miles away, and pictures all these things. And got it down to a T. I mean, you could not have taken a snapshot of this and been a more true picture, find this area, you found your daughter.
KING: Raleigh, how have you handled the loss?
HENDRICKSON: Every year around her birthday, I go through a period of about a week or so -- I've got all the news tapes and clippings and stuff throughout the whole case during when it was happening. I go through a down period. I'm angry. And I go through all these mood changes. But I found it easier to talk about it. And as time goes on, it gets a little easier.
KING: Do you have other children?
HENDRICKSON: I have a son. He lives in California. He's in the Air Force.
KING: Is your wife living?
KING: How has she handled it? You're divorced?
KING: How has she handled the loss of your daughter?
HENDRICKSON: Well, she's writing a book about it now. And she's -- I guess that's the way she's had to let it out. The way she's letting it out -- everybody has to do their own kind of venting.
KING: Is the killer in jail, Raleigh?
HENDRICKSON: Yes, he is. He had a possible 36 years. And out of the possible 36, he got 29. And actually got more time for breaking down her door with a gun than he did for actually killing her.
KING: Gale, do you have a Web site, by the way? ST. JOHN: No, I don't at this time. The only thing I'm working on right now is I'm writing a book, basically, about my life as a psychic. From childhood on.
KING: Are you in the Toledo phone book?
ST. JOHN: Yes, I am.
KING: OK, it's Gale St. John, right?
ST. JOHN: Yes, that's correct.
KING: Gale St. John and Raleigh Hendrickson, thank you very much.
HENDRICKSON: I'd like to say something, Larry.
KING: Thank you both very much. Yeah, quickly, Raleigh.
HENDRICKSON: I think police departments around the country should adhere to these psychic people. I think they don't want to -- it's like hocus pocus to them. But I think they should treat it -- if they find the person credible, I think they should use it as a credible lead and follow up on it, because I think it can -- lives can be saved. And after all, the main thing is to find the perpetrator and get him off the street. And I think...
KING: I'd take any avenue open to me.
HENDRICKSON: Exactly. The main thing is to get them off, and you know, let go of the ego a little bit and use these leads.
KING: Well said, Raleigh. Thank you both very much.
Big show for you Monday night, Brooke Shields joins me. Also, Leonardo DiCaprio, star of the new film, "Aviator."
But the big news tonight, a legendary rock star announces a big reunion. It's going to happen right here on LARRY KING LIVE.
Back in a moment with another amazing case from the files of Court TV's "Psychic Detectives."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: A man disappears from his Florida home without a trace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just never came home. We didn't have a shred of evidence or a clue what happened to him.
NARRATOR: With the case in jeopardy, detectives turn to an unusual source. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt that if I could be him and travel with him to the end of his journey, we would know what happened and where he was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Joe Lewis, when your brother went missing, did you think at all of calling a psychic?
JOE LEWIS, BROTHER OF DROWNING VICTIM NORMAN LEWIS: Well, I mentioned it. Someone had mentioned it to me and I mentioned it to the chief of police. And he said that he had some experience with them up in Delaware. But he didn't know of anyone in this area. And he said, I caution you, you might get ripped off.
KING: But they contacted Noreen Renier, who is the psychic in this case. Noreen, do you do a lot of this, finding missing people?
NOREEN RENIER, PSYCHIC: That's all I do. That's my job.
KING: All you do?
RENIER: That's all I do is work with the police.
KING: Tell me what this case presented to you. Did the police contact you?
RENIER: Absolutely. And I got paid. I charge. They gave me a wallet and a shoe. By touching the items, I try to lead them to where Mr. Lewis and his truck was.
KING: And what happened to Mr. Lewis?
RENIER: He and his truck went into a quarry. The quarry was very deep. That's basically what happened.
KING: And he was found dead in the truck?
RENIER: Yes, he was. He and his truck were found together. I'd seen them both together. So I knew if we could find his truck and him, everybody would be -- conclusion to this case.
KING: Desperate for clues, investigators gathered up a few of Norman's personal effects and sent them to Noreen Renier. Here's a clip from "Psychic Detectives."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: Chief Slaughter (ph) instructs Sergeant Bill Baxter (ph) to send items belonging to the missing man to psychic Noreen Renier. She can tune in to a person by handling objects that belong to them. All they've told her about the case is that a man is missing. Nothing more.
RENIER: I see a truck. Possibly red. And I see him driving. I'm going to catch up with him. I see the number 45. A 2, 1. A 2. I knew I was Norman Lewis and I could see through his eyes.
NARRATOR: Noreen can't make sense of her vision but she's sure of one thing.
RENIER: He's with his truck. If you find his truck, you'll find him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Can you explain? Are you actually seeing it, Noreen?
RENIER: I see pictures in my head, yes, I do. Sometimes they're more clear than other times. But they're pictures. And sometimes I just speak and don't see the picture.
KING: When you're not right, how do you explain it to yourself?
RENIER: I always think I'm right. I don't have the police telling me I was wrong yet. Not yet.
KING: Joe Lewis, how do you feel about this now?
LEWIS: Very well pleased now. Because it went for over a year. With running down leads, sending out brochures, everything else. And he disappeared in March. And it was -- we contacted her in July of the next year.
KING: By the way concerning those numbers, 45 was state route 45. 21 was 2.1 miles from Norman's door to his death. And 22 was the date on which Norman Lewis' watch had stopped. All of which you saw, Noreen, right?
RENIER: That's correct.
KING: Now, when the police come to you on this, are more and more police departments less skeptical?
RENIER: I would say there's more that are less skeptical. But there are some out there that are pretty skeptical still.
KING: And they pay you, the police, the city? How are you paid?
RENIER: Sometimes it's the police, sometimes the family is paying for my services. But 60 percent I would say is police. Maybe 40 percent is family.
KING: How did it start with you? How did that start?
RENIER: Really, accidentally. I used to be a skeptic. I didn't believe in psychics or psychic phenomena. Then something happened and I really set out to disprove it. And then accidentally got involved in police work, and I've been with it ever since. About 28 years now.
KING: Do you travel a lot?
RENIER: No, I'm an armchair psychic. In the beginning I traveled when I was young. Now I'm -- they just send me objects from the body or the missing person and I do everything out of my home.
KING: They might send you a belt or a tie?
RENIER: Or bloody glasses.
KING: Then you touch them and visions appear to you?
RENIER: Right. Images. Usually I try to make sure I'm really tuned in to the case by describing what the victim looked like and how he or she was killed if it's a homicide. And then I go into the unknown once I get a lot of yeses.
KING: Is it hard for you when the result is a death?
RENIER: It's not any harder for me. Because it's sort of like I'm not emotionally involved in it. My job is to find or, you know, see the murderer or something of that sort. I think it's all the same.
KING: They don't all result in deaths. This one unfortunately did. Thank you very much, Noreen Renier and Joe Lewis, the brother of the missing man. Another extraordinary case from "Psychic Detectives."
It's a special day here at LARRY KING LIVE. We're welcoming a new baby. Our Atlanta editor B.J. Alden (ph) and his wife Christine (ph) who happens to work in CNN's graphics department -- a little nepotism -- gave birth to a beautiful baby boy. Emerson Joseph Alden was born at 12:09 pm. today in Atlanta. Emerson weighed in at a whopping 9 pounds 5 ounces. Mom and baby and dad are all doing well. We're happy for the new Alden family. We congratulate them on this very exciting event. Time for a break and then back with another amazing "Psychic Detective" case in a couple of minutes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARRATOR: When police were lost, psychic Noreen Renier put them on the path to solving their case.
RENIER: I have no idea how this works. All I know is it works and I can use and that's all that matters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She gave us everything we needed to find Mr. Lewis. And I am convinced if we did not use the psychic in this case, we never would have found Mr. Lewis. He would have still been in the bottom of the quarry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Joining us in our New York bureau is psychic Phil Jordan. In West Palm Beach, Florida is Ed Hillery, the Boynton Beach, Florida police chief. Let me give you a quick synopsis here, because we're running short on time. A small Florida town, Boynton Beach, a woman named May Wins (ph) drops out of sight. Her body is found, a victim of foul play inside her home. No strange fibers or hair are found on the victim's clothing. Ed Hillery, as the Boynton Beach, Florida police chief, what led the police to contact a psychic?
ED HILLERY, BOYNTON BEACH, FL. POLICE CHIEF: Actually, I was assigned by my chief at the time -- I was not chief then -- to go to "The National Enquirer" and observe a psychic show some of his skills. When I was there, I got talking to him. And I told him we had a case that was open and would he mind giving us some help? And he agreed to do that.
KING: Now, Phil, what did you -- eventually you found the killer, huh?
PHIL JORDAN, PSYCHIC: Yes. Eventually the crime was solved. And it was the person that I had indicated that was living in the house that I had indicated. And everything came to pass, and it was resolved.
KING: Phil, what did you need to have to work with? Did you need some articles from the house? What did you need?
JORDAN: Actually, Larry, it's better for me not to have a lot of information. I take a picture of the person when they're in a good physical state and do a reading on that. And then I will take a crime scene photo if there are some available. I've been through police academy myself, so I know the evidence of investigation. But it's better for me just to have a photo of the person and not a lot of information. I don't want my psychic impressions to be contaminated by other people's thoughts on the case.
KING: How long have you been doing this, Phil?
JORDAN: I've been doing this about 30 years. I got really involved in the police work when I found a little boy that was lost in the woods back in 1975, and was deputized through our county sheriff and went through police academy.
KING: Is the killer, Ed, in jail?
HILLERY: He served his time. He spent time in jail. But he's out now.
KING: Ed, what do you make of this?
HILLERY: I was a complete skeptic at the beginning. We had this open case. We'd hit the wall, you might say. And we were -- I was fortunate to go up and see this psychic do his thing. And when he agreed to come and help us, he came down, and it certainly -- his work certainly helped us focus more on a suspect. In the end, there's no doubt about it. There's a place for psychics in law enforcement.
KING: Would you encourage other police departments to look at it fairly seriously?
HILLERY: I'd have no hesitation. As a matter of fact, in the last few days, because of the Court TV show that aired, I've been contacted by at least four or five chiefs of police throughout the country, trying to figure out how to get ahold of Phil.
KING: And, Phil, do you believe your energy may have gotten the killer to confess? Is that true?
JORDAN: I believe that everything that's created begins with an idea. And that telepathy is something that does happen. I mean, you can be driving along and get somebody to look at you just by staring at them. So I think there's a little something to that. But I also think that our own emotions, our own conscience and our own guilt will eventually lead us. But maybe the thoughts and prayers of others can certainly encourage us to go in the right direction.
KING: You get a lot of rewards out of what you do, Phil, I salute you.
Thank you very much, Phil Jordan, the psychic in New York, and Ed Hillery, Florida police chief in Boynton Beach, Florida. By the way, it's a wonderful community, a lot of friends, people I grew up with now live in Boynton Beach, Florida. Phil Jordan and Ed Hillery.
And we thank Court TV and "Psychic Detectives" for their cooperation in tonight's show.
Finally, we want to extend our sympathy to Susan St. James and her husband, NBC Sports chairman Dick Ebersol. As you probably know, their youngest son, Edward, Edward Ebersol, widely known as Teddy, was killed Sunday in a plane crash in Colorado. And there you see his picture. He was just 14. He was a huge fan of the Boston Red Sox, a prize-winning poet, a volunteer with the mentally retarded. Ted's father and his oldest brother Charlie were hurt in that crash. Susan St. James spoke with NBC's Tim Russert, a close family friend, about coping with Teddy's loss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN ST. JAMES: I don't believe that God's going, oh, Susan, things are going really good there, and he goes, I'll tweak that a little bit. It's just not like that. And I have a right and my kids have a right to just -- to be really sad, but we're not sad, mad sad. You know, I'm not mad like -- I just want to move forward.
TIM RUSSERT, NBC: I have a clear sense that if someone came to you and said, Susan, this is the grand design, we'll give you young Teddy for 14 years, and then bring him home, you'd say, in a...
ST. JAMES: Definitely. Oh, for sure, I'd take him in a minute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Our thoughts are with Susan St. James and her family. And with the families of the two members of the plane's crew who died along with Teddy. We wish Dick and Charlie Ebersol a speedy recovery from their injuries.
If you'd like to send a message to Teddy's family, you can e-mail it. Ebersolfamily@nbc-uni-dot-com. Susan St. James assures us she will read every message. I'll be right back.
KING: By the way, the correct address to contact the Ebersol family -- I gave out wrong e-mail is -- ebersolfamily -- one word -- firstname.lastname@example.org.
Monday night, when we're back live from New York with Brooke Shields and Leonardo DiCaprio. Weekend highlight shows over the weekend. But right now, it's time to close out your week the best way we know possible, with "NEWSNIGHT," with its raconteur, its host, the man who -- by the way, I think on Friday night, you should do Sunday newspapers as well. See if you can come up with that one.
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