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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Intelligence Reform Expected to Pass Soon; Has Bush Lost Capital on Capitol Hill?; CIA Memo: Situation in Iraq Getting Worse

Aired December 07, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Congress voting on a massive overhaul of our intelligence community. That vote is imminent. We'll report the results as soon as the vote is taken.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a good intelligence reform bill. There's good law enforcement provisions.

DOBBS: Two keep congressional chairman stood on principal against the intelligence legislation. Congressman Duncan Hunter, who eventually won concessions. And Congressman James Sensenbrenner who at least succeeded in focusing Congress, the Senate and the public on the importance of border security. Both are our guests tonight.

The CIA apparently still can't keep a secret. But how secret is it, really, that security in Iraq is deteriorating? We'll have a special report.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People leave in this town for a lot of different reasons.

DOBBS: Medical authorities the world over are worried that bird flu will be the next pandemic. Tens of millions of people could lose their lives if there's an outbreak. Tonight I'll be talking with one of the world's leading microbiologists, Dr. Donald Low.

A steroid scandal in Major League Baseball. Should Congress take action? Why are we allowing professional sports to contribute to the decline of our culture? We'll have a special report, and I'll be joined by "New York Times" Pulitzer prize winning columnist, David Anderson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, December 7. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Congress is expected to vote within the hour on a huge overhaul of this country's intelligence agencies. Those intelligence reforms will create a national intelligence director and a new counter- terrorism center.

But several Republican congressmen are likely to vote against the intelligence bill because it fails to address concerns about border security.

We begin with two reports tonight: Ed Henry from Capitol Hill, Dana Bash from the White House. First, we go to Ed Henry -- Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

Speculation was flying around the capitol this afternoon that this historic deal may be unraveling because of a controversy over those immigration provisions being left out.

But the kinks have been worked out. And the House is now poised to pass this bill later this hour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY (voice-over): Outside the capitol, flags at half-staff, marking the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Inside the capitol, history in the making, a sweeping intelligence bill. Supporters say it will help prevent America from experiencing another day of infamy.

SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D), FLORIDA: Today, after a half a century we are committed and on the verge of making some fundamental reforms that will reduce the chances of another Pearl Harbor or another 9/11 occurring.

HENRY: But Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, whose immigration provisions were left out, said the reform was incomplete.

REP. JIM SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Congress' job is to prevent a terrorist event from happening rather than managing the consequences of it. And good intelligence is useless without good homeland security.

HENRY: At a closed-door meeting of House Republicans, Sensenbrenner got sustained applause from angry conservatives, a sign President Bush's victory might come with some political costs.

REP. ZACH WAMP (R), TENNESSEE: This may be the most divided the Republican house conference is on any major Bush initiative in the last four years, because I think we're still split sort of down the middle.

HENRY: Supporters of the 9/11 bill say Sensenbrenner's measures would have sunk the legislation.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME), CHAIRMAN, GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS: We just could not let the most significant reforms of our intelligence community in 50 years go down because of controversy over issues that were not recommended by the 9/11 Commission.

HENRY: The bill does include some immigration changes: an increase in border patrol agents, more detention beds and stepped up criminal penalties for alien smuggling.

Negotiators admit they could have gone further. But they didn't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: But I think that we've come out with a work product that is one that is the best we can do at this point.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: Republican leaders have pledged to try to finish the job in January by bringing up Sensenbrenner's proposals. But with a lack of consensus at this point, Republicans are facing a major inter-party fight over immigration -- Lou.

DOBBS: An inter-party fight as well, but also, it appears that the White House has agreed to move ahead with immigration reform, border security enhancement when the 109th Congress begins. Is that correct?

HENRY: Absolutely. It's clear from Republican leaders. They said on the Hill today that there's a commitment that they, very early, in the first must-pass legislation, they're going to try to attach some of these provisions that Sensenbrenner wants.

The question, though, is whether there will be enough votes for those provisions to be added. But the leaders are committed, in part, with President Bush's support, to at least consider these proposals at the very beginning of next year -- Lou.

DOBBS: Ed Henry from Capitol Hill. Thank you, Ed.

As Ed just reported, Bush's victory on intelligence reform may cost him vital political capital in Congress. Several influential lawmakers are angry that this intelligence reform legislation fails to stop illegal aliens from obtaining U.S. driver's licenses and improving substantively our border security.

White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An emotional President Bush at Camp Pendleton to thank Marines hard hit by the Iraq War.

No mention of it here, but this is also a commander in chief upbeat at word he avoided a political embarrassment back in Washington. Intelligence agency reforms he backed are finally on the way to his desk.

COLLINS: The president's personal involvement clearly makes a difference. In this case, it determined the fate of this very important legislation.

BASH: Privately, many involved in the intelligence debate complained the president engaged too late. It's a problematic first- term pattern, say some, who hope he learned a lesson for tougher challenges awaiting him. TIMOTHY ROEMER, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: The president said, in the days after the election, that he was willing to use political capital on Social Security reform and tax reform. If he would have lost this, however, it really would erode some of that capital.

BASH: White House sources concede this early legislative victory was crucial for a president trying to use the post-election period to build support to help Bush his ambitious second-term agenda in a divided America.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think this does help set the stage for the second term, because it shows what we can get done when we work together in a bipartisan way.

BASH: But the president's fight with fellow Republicans, not Democrats, on intelligence reform exposes a harsh reality. A bigger GOP Congress does not mean a rubber stamp.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: This Congress, you know, which saw its majority grow, and received a mandate from the American people for fiscal discipline, limited government, and traditional moral values.

And we will work toward that vision with the president, occasionally disagree with the president on how that vision is worked out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And the intelligence bill has near unanimous support among Democrats. That's a luxury the president will not have when trying to tackle some of the monumental changes in big areas like tax code reform, Social Security reform.

And Lou, those are areas where there are still differences, pretty big differences, among Republicans when it comes to specifics -- Lou.

DOBBS: And Dana, we're going to see a vote in the House on this intelligence reform here within the hour. We'll find out just how much political capital the president has expended in winning agreement on this legislation.

Thank you very much, Dana Bash from the White House.

Later here, I'll be talking with two congressional chairmen who played the leading role in the final negotiations on this bill, Congressman Duncan Hunter, who chairs the House Armed Services Committee and won concessions, and Congressman James Sensenbrenner, who highlighted the critical importance of border security and improving it, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.

With one caveat, and that is, of course, so long as that vote is timely, but we are expecting that that vote will come at a point at which we will be able to talk with the two chairmen.

Turning to overseas news, there's a grim warning tonight about the security situation in Iraq from the CIA station chief in Baghdad. The officer's report appears to contradict more optimistic assessments about Iraq from senior members of the Bush administration.

National security correspondent David Ensor reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The classified cable from the outgoing CIA station chief in Baghdad warns that the situation is deteriorating and is likely to continue to do so. It warns of more violence, say U.S. officials, and sectarian fighting among Iraq's Sunnis, Shia and Kurds, unless there are clear improvements soon and the control of the Iraqi government and in the economy.

Bad news for the Bush administration.

FLYNT LEVERETT, SABAN CENTER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: They are literally between a rock and a hard place right now. And I think that's an accurate reading of the situation. And I think the CIA is doing its job to paint that picture as accurately and as vividly as it can for policymakers.

ENSOR: U.S. officials say the CIA cable's assessment is mixed, in that it caused the Iraqi people resilient and says political progress towards elections is being made.

But the station chief's bleak tone overall is in marked contrast with some of the administration's public statements on Iraq.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The schools are open. The hospitals are open. The clinics are open. The stock market's open. The currency is stable. And awful lot's going well.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The terrorists will be defeated, Iraq will be free, and the world will be more secure.

ENSOR: Bush administration officials could hardly be pleased by the leak of an unvarnished CIA assessment. U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte, U.S. officials say, added a dissenting note, saying he thinks the cable does not give enough credit to coalition efforts against Iraqi insurgents.

The cable was widely distributed in the government, though, so the leak could have come from a number of places.

LEVERETT: People leak in this town for a lot of different reasons. My experience is, actually, that the CIA leaks a lot less than most of the policy agencies in town do.

ENSOR: Despite the uproar recently about intelligence chief Porter Goss' memo to staff saying they should "support the Bush administration," officials note that Goss approved distributing the CIA station chief's warnings around the government.

(on camera): There was, after all, another line in that Goss memo. It said to CIA officials that their job is to tell truth to power and let the facts speak for themselves.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And while that leaked CIA station chief memo may be contradictory of some in the Bush administration, it appears to be in almost complete agreement with an earlier estimate that made its way to the public back in July.

Russian President Vladimir Putin today strongly criticized U.S. policy in Iraq. President Putin said it will be impossible to hold elections in Iraq when, in his words, foreign troops are occupying the country.

Putin's criticism comes days after he blasted U.S. policy in Ukraine. In that speech, the Russian president said policies based on what he called baric room principles are extremely dangerous.

Well, dangerous or not, this was a clear illustration of one major success for U.S. foreign policy today. President Hamid Karzai became the first freely elected leader of Afghanistan.

President Karzai took his oath of office in a ceremony in Kabul attended by Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. That ceremony took place three years after U.S.-led forces overthrew the Taliban regime and expelled al Qaeda terrorists from Afghanistan.

Still ahead here, I'll be talking with Congressman Duncan Hunter, Congressman James Sensenbrenner about the intelligence reform legislation, what it achieves and what still must be done to secure our national borders.

Also, a steroid scandal in Major League Baseball. The Players Association meeting tonight. We'll have that report for you. And I'll be joined by "New York Times" Pulitzer Prizewinning sports columnist Dave Anderson.

And a surprising decision on prescription drug imports by this country's largest and most influential doctors organization. We'll have that special report for you just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Major League Baseball is facing its greatest scandal in years. The steroid scandal is embarrassing baseball and its fans, leaving some players' achievements and their records very much in doubt.

The players and team owners tonight are closer, apparently, to an agreement on tougher restrictions on the use of steroids. The new rules would include more frequent drug testing and harsher penalties for players who are found to be using those banned substances.

Matt Morrison now from the Players Association annual meeting in Phoenix, Arizona -- Matt.

MATT MORRISON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

The players union executive director Donald Fehr stepped out on those discussions this afternoon to address the media, and he confirmed that the union is willing to amend their current drug testing policy with a goal of having a new agreement by spring training.

Mr. Fehr said the issue was on the agenda long before the events of last week when news of grand jury testimony of Jason Giambi and Barry Bonds indicated that both Major League superstars admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs. Fehr said the testing program never was perfect, and improvement is the key.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD FEHR, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PLAYERS ASSOCIATION: When you have experience, if you see that there are other things that can be done, if some of the things you were concerned about don't appear to be as big a concern in light of experience as they might have been ahead of time and you can do things better, there's no reason why you shouldn't do that, and that's why the players are moving ahead in this fashion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORRISON: Don, in response to Senator John McCain's calling for some legislative input as soon as January, the executive director, Donald Fehr, said that he expects to speak with the senator later this week and have discussions throughout the remainder of the year and that he hopes to come to an understanding with members of the government by early next year.

DOBBS: Well, come to an understanding is a far cry from actually doing something in that meeting. Are we just seeing what typically happens between the owners and the Players Association, that is nothing in the way of advancing the interests of the game on this specific issue?

MORRISON: Actually, I think that Donald Fehr actually addressed that better than he ever has in the past. That the players union is willing to open this contract which runs through 2006 and make an amendment here is movement that we've never seen from the players union in the past.

Today, perhaps we could say it's lip service because we've heard something to that in the past.

DOBBS: Right.

MORRISON: However, he is responding to public pressure and to government interference by saying they hope to get something done by spring training. And, at this point, Lou, we can only take him on his word. DOBBS: Well, we -- I think we have a number of other options we can look over the progress and the achievements of both the Players Association and the owners on this issue over the course of the past decade.

It is, in point of fact, a scandalous record on their parts, and I think what does make a difference, as you point out, Matt, this time a U.S. senator by the name of John McCain saying he will do something if they don't.

Matt Morrison, thank you for bringing us up to date.

We'll have much more on this worsening steroid scandal in Major League Baseball later here in the broadcast. Dave Anderson, Pulitzer Prizewinning sports columnist of "The New York Times," is our guest.

The nation's largest and most influential doctors' organization today said it supports allowing more prescription drug imports into this country. The American Medical Association decision could pressure lawmakers to make it far easier for Americans to buy those cheaper prescription drugs from outside this country.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Prevacid is a popular drug used for acid reflux. In the United States, it can cost as much as $410. In Canada, less than half that amount, $190.

The American Medical Association, concerned about the rising costs of prescription drugs, changed its policy in favor of importing drugs from Canada and elsewhere at its semiannual meeting.

DR. JOHN NELSON, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: We need the costs to be low so that our citizens, particularly our seniors, don't have to make a choice between eating or paying the rent and buying medication. These drugs must be safe.

SYLVESTER: The AMA says U.S. pharmacies and wholesalers should be allowed to import drugs, but only if the Food and Drug Administration can electronically track the origin to ensure safety. States, including Illinois, Wisconsin and Missouri, have moved forward on their own, ignoring an FDA ban against importing prescription drugs.

But pharmaceutical companies raise safety concerns and argue importing drugs could leave the drug industry ailing.

DR. PAUL ANTONY, PHRMA: If we import medicines from Canada, we're importing price controls, and importing price controls will negatively effect the development of new medicines for patients.

SYLVESTER: Americans end up paying more for medicine because other industrialized countries have price regulations. The result is that American consumers end up subsidizing hefty research and development costs for the rest of the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: A drug importation provision passed the House last session, but stalled in the Senate, but things could change next year now that the American Medical Association is on record giving its conditional support -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, free trade is so popular in Washington, perhaps they will decide that free trade should extend to pharmaceuticals as well.

Thank you very much.

Lisa Sylvester from Washington.

One American company is suggesting Americans deny their culture and their country altogether when traveling overseas. Tshirtking.com suggests Americans disguise themselves in shirts with Canadian flags on them so as to not invite rudeness from their European hosts. The company even includes a quick reference guide in case someone asks about Canada.

Well, we have a few ideas about what Americans could wear when traveling abroad. How about this one? Go USA. Perhaps this one. Proud to be an American.

Still ahead here tonight, Congress is about to vote on the biggest intelligence overhaul in half a century. Two of the most prominent people in that debate, Congressman Duncan Hunter, Congressman James Sensenbrenner, join us next.

And then doctors and health officials warning that the next pandemic could kill tens of millions of people around the globe. They've issued a new alert about avian flu, which they say could easily spread to humans. Dr. Donald Low, one of the world's most prestigious experts on infectious disease, is my guest next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner and Congressman Duncan Hunter, each with their own unique view of the intelligence reform compromise.

But, first, let's take a look at some of the top stories here tonight.

In Maryland, more than 100 FBI investigators are searching for clues in a suspected case of ecoterrorism. Some $10 million in damage done when a subdivision was torched. Twelve homes were destroyed in those fires. Another 14 homes were damaged. No injuries reported, however. Investigators have confirmed that arson is the cause. Environmentalists had protested that new development saying it threatened a nearby wetland.

In Chicago, investigators are searching for the cause of a high- rise fire that injured 37 people. Twenty-two firefighters were among those injured. It required more than 300 firefighters and six hours to control that fire.

As many as 600 U.S. Marines are on their way to the Philippines to help the flood-ravaged country. A recent wave of storms there has left hundreds dead, as many as 200,000 people homeless.

And the United States is also sending a Marine security team to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, where eight people were killed in an attack on the U.S. Consulate yesterday. Security teams are often deployed in the aftermath of terrorist attacks. They will be there to help bolster security at the consulate.

My guest tonight is credited with helping to break the impasse over the intelligence reform legislation that is being voted on within the hour on the Hill. House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter joins us now.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Chairman.

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Good to be with you.

DOBBS: You have succeed in winning an important move on this legislation. Are you satisfied now -- you had voiced concerns about the chain of command. Are you satisfied now that this is substantive reform and the Pentagon will be left with its appropriate role in intelligence gathering and assessment?

HUNTER: Yes, I am. And I partnered with this last provision that we demanded be amended and put in the conference report with John Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. We looked it over pretty carefully, we analyzed it and we worked it with the military, and this works.

And what this does, Lou, very simply, is this. Right now, our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan depend, to a large degree, on platforms, some of them satellites, other types of platforms, airplanes, that are sending them pictures and signals about the enemy, telling them where the bad guys are, what direction they're going in and how you can target them.

We were very concerned that in building this new intelligence authority and this new intelligence director, we were going to see that chain of command infringed upon in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and have problems in the future.

And so what we did was put in, I think, a very strong provision that says that that chain of command shall be respected and not abrogated, and we cite the statutes that say that the commander -- the combatant commander in Iraq or Afghanistan has control of every asset in that area, and we think we've got a good -- a very good package.

I am sorry to see that the driver's license legislation and the fence provision to finish the last part of my border fence in San Diego did not get into this. But I think the troops are paramount in this situation. I'm going to vote for the bill.

DOBBS: Certainly, our troops are paramount always. National security in every form, however, is paramount, I know, and it begins with you every day of your working life there on Capitol Hill, Congressman. But let's turn to a couple of the criticisms that have been offered here as well.

Amongst those criticisms is a suggestion that you and your counterpart in the Senate, Senator John Warner, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee -- the Senate Armed Services Committee, basically were trying to protect turf here and trying to protect the status quo, preserve the status quo, if you will, at the Pentagon.

How do you respond to those who have criticized you in that way?

HUNTER: Well, if it's turf, Lou, it's turf that's measured in the lives of our uniformed personnel.

We did this chain of command law back when the Marines in Lebanon were hit with that suicide car bomber and we lost 241 people, and we saw that while the commander of the theater ostensibly had command of the theater, the Marines were actually getting their direction from Washington, D.C., and we said, in this law that Senator Barry Goldwater put in place, you can only have one commander in the theater and he has to have control of all the military assets to protect his people and carry out the mission.

And very clearly, without this savings provision that John Warner and I insisted upon, we would have a real problem with these expanded powers of the intelligence authority. You might have a spy plane that you need to send over Fallujah in a firefight, and that pilot might say, wait a minute, do I have to check with the CIA in Washington before I can go? You shouldn't have to check with anybody.

DOBBS: Congressman, we're going to be moving to a vote here, and I know you have to return quickly to do so. What do you expect that vote to be because there seems to be a suggestion here that the conservatives in your party are more than a little upset about the way in which Congressman James Sensenbrenner, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, has just been rolled altogether in this process.

HUNTER: Jim Sensenbrenner did a wonderful job, and, again, he tried to push my border fence. We were patching up the last two miles of border fence, his driver's license provision, absolutely necessary. What we've all been fighting for in the conference and what the Republican leadership has promised and have been working with the White House on is to get a vote early in the next several months on the driver's license provision and other immigration provisions.

DOBBS: Do you think that there will be as many as 50 votes on the part of the Republicans against this legislation? HUNTER: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. I think a number of members on our party, including myself, were very disappointed to see that -- the driver's license legislation is something we have to do. And the American people now understand it. They know about it. They're upset.

DOBBS: Congressman Duncan Hunter, we thank you very much. And we congratulate you on your successful negotiation with the powers that be, including the White House and the Senate, in getting that protection that you sought for national intelligence. Thank you.

HUNTER: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner about why he will refuse to vote in favor of this legislation and this compromise.

Also ahead here tonight, a chilling global warning about what health officials now say could be the next pandemic. Dr. Donald Low, one of the world's most respected experts on infectious diseases, is my guest here next.

And then, American culture in decline. How the abominable behavior of so-called professional athletes is having a direct impact on our young people. We'll have that special report and a great deal more still ahead here tonight. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest says the intelligence reform bill is incomplete. House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner has demanded that that bill do more to protect our nation's borders, specifically Congressman Sensenbrenner has called for that legislation to include a measure that would prevent millions of illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses in this country and to improve border security. Chairman Sensenbrenner joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. Good to have you with us.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Thank you again for having me, Lou.

DOBBS: Congressman, we have heard nothing from those in your party conference but plaudits for your moral and principled stand on this issue. Yet at this point, you don't have much of a guarantee, do you, that you're going to be able to succeed with legislation in the new Congress?

SENSENBRENNER: Well, I do have a guarantee that the driver's license and asylum provisions that fell off the table in the last 72 hours will end up being put in the first must-pass bill in the new Congress next year.

The problem has been with the United States Senate. They have been adamant in their refusal not to deal with anything in tightening up the driver's licenses, including denying them to illegal aliens, as well as doing anything to reform the asylum laws, which have been gamed by non-9/11 terrorists that bombed the World Trade Center and to shoot up the Los Angeles airport two and a half years ago.

DOBBS: And amongst the 9/11 terrorists, at least there were seven driver's licenses, not forged driver's licenses, we should point out, but seven of those licenses that have been obtained by fraud on the part of those hijackers. So it's a critical issue.

The 9/11 Commission itself, Congressman, pointed out that we desperately need to take on the issue of national identification, a careful review of the way in which we document births in this country, and driver's licenses. Why was the Senate, in your judgment, because you've spent a lot of hard hours with the Senate in conference, why could they simply dismiss the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission on this area and embrace them on others?

SENSENBRENNER: Because they were unwilling to stand up to the illegal aliens lobby. Denying illegal aliens driver's licenses is the right thing to do. And over 90 percent of the American public recognizes that. Unfortunately, the 15 United States senators who are on this conference committee didn't. And they're the ones that are going to have to answer for the fact that we have an intelligence reform bill which is incomplete. Good intelligence is no good unless we have good homeland security, and this bill is lacking and incomplete in the homeland security area.

DOBBS: And in that regard, do you plan to introduce legislation in the new Congress to address the somewhat restricted areas, not necessarily narrow, but the restricted areas of asylum reform and driver's licenses, or will you be more comprehensive in border security reform and immigration reform?

SENSENBRENNER: Well, the first thing I plan on doing is introducing legislation that deals with the driver's license asylum and the three and a half mile hole in the fence between San Diego and Tijuana that fell off the table in the conference on this intelligence bill. And I have commitments from the leadership that this will be sent over to the Senate early next year, and then the time will come for the American public to tell the senators to do the right thing, which they failed to do this time. We will be doing more in terms of a comprehensive border security legislation later on, which may or may not be part of an overall immigration bill. But if it is in an overall immigration bill, I can assure you that will not include amnesty for illegal aliens.

DOBBS: Congressman James Sensenbrenner, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, we thank you very much, sir, for being here this evening.

SENSENBRENNER: Thank you very much, Lou.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight on the need for immigration reform, border security reform. The question tonight is, do you believe terrorists could cross our borders just as easily as illegal aliens? Yes or no? Please cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Also coming up, a chilling warning about the world's next pandemic. The World Health Organization warns that it could kill tens of millions of people. I'll be talking with Dr. Donald Low, an expert in microbiology and infectious diseases here next.

And "Culture in Decline." Our week-long series of special reports. Tonight, we focus on professional athletes who are contributing, many say, to the decline in our culture. We'll have a special report for you.

And I'll be talking with "New York Times" Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Dave Anderson. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More than one million new doses of flu vaccine will soon be available in this country. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson today said he expects those vaccines to arrive from Germany this month. They will help ease the U.S. shortage caused by a contamination at a British plant in October. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will oversee the distribution, ensuring the doses are only given to high-risk patients.

Meanwhile, U.S. and international health officials are warning the Avian flu, bird flu, could become the next global pandemic that is once the disease mutates into a strain that can be passed by humans. Joining me now, microbiologist-in-chief at Toronto Mount Sinai, Dr. Donald Low, one of the best known microbiologists and experts on infectious diseases. Good to have you with us again.

This is troubling, to say the very least, to be talking about the prospect of a pandemic that could literally kill tens of millions of people around the world. What is focusing our international health authorities and national authorities on this disease at a point in which we have not seen a widespread outbreak of bird flu?

DR. DONALD LOW, MICROBIOLOGIST-IN-CHIEF: Well, we know that, from past history, that we see pandemics occur of influenza about every 20 to 35 years. It's been 35 years since we've had our last pandemic, which was the Hong Kong flu of 1967. And what we're seeing in the last couple of years is a strain of influenza that has caused disease in birds and has successfully jumped between birds and humans on a number of occasions. So it looks like all the ingredients are there for what could be the next pandemic.

DOBBS: And the idea that, because it has now moved to human beings, and we should point out, in southern Asia, that is raising concern. The estimates, the number of people that health authorities around the world are talking about being killed in a pandemic of this particular nature are astonishing. What is your best estimate of the number of lives at risk here from a bird flu pandemic?

LOW: Well, if we go back to the 1918 epidemic, the Spanish flu, that strain of influenza had a mortality rate, a death rate of about 2 percent. So every 100 people that got infected, two people would die. During that, there was anywhere from 20 to 40 million people died during that pandemic. So what about the strain we have today? The Avian strain, we don't know. It might even be worse than the strain of 1918. It might even have a higher mortality rate. We don't know. We don't know how infectious it's going to be. What we do know is it has killed people.

DOBBS: It has killed people. Secretary Tommy Thompson yesterday, Dr. Low, pointed out that about 40 people in Asia have contracted the bird flu, the Avian flu. Thirty of them have died. That mortality rate, the lethality, would certainly not be that high in a pandemic, would it?

LOW: We hope not. We hope we don't know how many people have actually been exposed to this and have not died. Maybe there was hundreds or thousands of people that have had Avian influenza, we don't know. But it's disconcerting to hear that the 40 that we do know about, that 70 percent of them died. So those are really astounding numbers, and that's why people are so concerned. It won't be that high, but it will probably be as high as what happened back in 1918.

DOBBS: Where do we stand with all of the research that is going on, not only in the United States and Canada, but around the world, where do we stand in terms of hope for a viral vaccine or an anti- viral drug of some sort that could help mankind should there be a pandemic?

LOW: Well, we are -- we do have the advantage now of having proper surveillances in place that we can watch this, that we can try to contain, if it does happen, and we can develop a vaccine sooner than later. But it's still going to be six to nine months before vaccines will become available on a large scale. But this time around, though, the good news is, we do have anti-viral drugs, new drugs, that we can use to treat influenza. Of course, the question is, how much of these drugs do you need, and will you have enough of them when the pandemic occurs, if it does occur?

DOBBS: Dr. Dennis (sic) Low, as always, we thank you for your insight and for bringing your expertise to bear.

LOW: Thank you.

DOBBS: Thank you.

Still ahead, our culture in decline. Are professional athletes setting a good example for our children? If you said yes, we'll have a special report that may ask you to change your mind. And I'll be joined by Pulitzer Prize winning sports writer Dave Anderson of the "New York Times." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In our series of special reports this week, we are focusing on American culture in decline. And tonight focusing on professional athletes and their influence on our culture. These very highly paid, very public figures are cheating and fighting and being thrown out of games. And many of these are the same people that so many of our children simply idolize. Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The national pastime is tarnished. Fights used to happen between teams. Now fans and players like Dodgers outfielder Milton Bradley are squaring off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last thing I want to do is hurt my team and especially the fans out there.

WIAN: It's not just baseball. Hockey players brawl with fans. College football players battle state troopers. And the NBA has taken player/fan violence to another level.

T.J. SIMERS, "L.A. TIMES" SPORTS COLUMNIST: Today's athlete is superman. He's invincible. He has so much money coming his way, endorsements and everything else. And so many second chances that they can hang in there and basically say or do anything and feel like there's never going to be a repercussion.

WIAN: Take Bradley. This year alone, he was ejected from four games, suspended twice, arrested on disorderly conduct charges, and jailed for eluding police. Basketbrawl combatant Ron Artest is serving his eighth suspension in two years. And Latrell Sprewell, best known for once choking his coach, recently called a $9 million a year contract offer insulting saying he has a family to feed. These words to a fan Saturday drew a one-game suspension.

LATRELL SPREWELL, NBA PLAYER: Suck my (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

WIAN: Then there's cheating. Several Major League Baseball players have reportedly admitted steroids use to a grand jury. Though homerun king Bonds claims his use was unintentional. Aspiring pros are taking notice. A recent survey found 56 percent of male high school athletes agree that successful people do whatever they have to do to win, even if others consider it cheating.

MICHAEL JOSEPHSON, JOSEPHSON INSTITUTE OF ETHICS: Today winning really is everything with an awful lot of young people. And when you think that this is the next generation of corporate executives and politicians and nuclear inspectors, it's a little bit scary.

WIAN: Even pro golf which prides itself on honesty has problems. Twenty-eight percent of caddies told "Golf" magazine they've seen pros cheat.

(on camera): Owners aren't likely to crack down on player misconduct until fans revolt. And that doesn't appear likely. Attendance at major sporting events is either at or near record levels.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: To take up this issue, I'm joined now by Dave Anderson, Pulitzer Prize winning sports columnist for "The New York Times." And in his column today, Anderson responded to reports that Barry Bonds said he was unaware he was using steroids by writing, "This his ignorance of the true identity of those substances is more childish than a youngster's excuse that the dog ate my homework."

Dave Anderson joins us here. Good to have you with us, Dave.

DAVE ANDERSON, "NEW YORK TIMES": Nice to be here.

DOBBS: This is a very sad time, at best, for baseball.

ANDERSON: Well, for every sport. As your piece showed, but especially for baseball. While there's always been smoke that all these players -- not all, but many of these great players have been taking steroids, just by looking at them, you can tell that they were. You know, last week the flames came out of the smoke. And as a result, Senator McCain is involved, and even the union finally is willing, apparently, from what we hear, at least, to create a stricter drug testing situation. The owners have wanted it, and the union has fought it for years.

DOBBS: Fought it successfully for years.

ANDERSON: Absolutely.

DOBBS: To the point you can only be tested once, as it stands now.

ANDERSON: Yes. Even the program they have, which really developed after Ken Caminiti blew the whistle about a year and a half ago. And even that has no real teeth to it.

DOBBS: No real teeth to it, and one wonders how much of the real interest in reforming baseball is simply lip service on the part of the athletes and the owners themselves. Because so much money is involved. We look at the relationship between the players, the owners, the national media, the big corporate sponsors...

ANDERSON: Sure.

DOBBS: ... there's so much at stake here. What is the sacrifice of a few lives and the diminishment of our culture, cheating and lying, taking controlled substances.

Do you think that's at the essence of what's happening here?

ANDERSON: Well, it definitely is. That's what it will all boil down to, sooner or later, sure. The culture of baseball, as opposed or in connection with the culture of the country. And the culture of kids who see these guys hitting mammoth home runs at age 40, not just Barry Bonds, but a lot of them. And football players, years ago, before Lyle Alzado (ph) died of steroids, you know, and it's cost the lives of several. I can't give you an exact number, but it's cost the lives of several of young high school, college athletes.

DOBBS: It's also costing us something else, too, and that's the respect for...

ANDERSON: Absolutely.

DOBBS: ... for a code of honor, dignity, of basic just honesty.

ANDERSON: You know, and integrity, really. I mean, the integrity of the sport. Whether it's the number of home runs that Barry Bonds will hit as opposed to the integrity of the home runs that Hank Aaron hit.

DOBBS: You know what I can imagine a young man or even a young lady at home in high school thinking, you know, they're listening to Dave Anderson and Lou Dobbs talk about this and saying that's fine for those old fogies.

ANDERSON: Sure.

DOBBS: But I have to make first team. I have to get ready for the transition to college sports, and I've got to have a boost. Where are they going to find influence that says wake up to the reality?

ANDERSON: Well, the influence should be medical, really. Because there is enough medical research and medical information to let young people know that this is not good for you. When Ken Caminiti died in October, the autopsy showed that he died of a drug overdose. But yet, he admitted, for several years, he had taken steroids, and it changed his life. And one of the side effects of steroids is death at an early age, whether it's a heart attack or whatever it may be.

DOBBS: One would hope that parents would have that kind of influence that would bring it about, too often parents are not in the home. One would hope a lot of things. But the fact is that if professional sports, whether it be the Major League Baseball, the NFL, the NBA, said, you're going to have conduct that shows both respect for the integrity of the game, respect for the dignity of the audience, the fans, and yourself, yourself.

ANDERSON: Right.

DOBBS: And there will be real penalties.

ANDERSON: That's the basic thing, yourself. Should be.

DOBBS: And what we have done is embrace the lowest common denominator.

ANDERSON: Well, baseball, especially, Lou. I mean, the NFL has had a steroid -- pretty legitimate steroid and pretty strict steroid testing program for close to 15 years.

DOBBS: Right.

ANDERSON: Steroids don't seem to be as useful to the athletes in basketball and hockey. I'm sure that some of them take them. But track and field, the Olympic is -- has been wrecked by steroids.

DOBBS: Well, as we begin the examination, let's hope that we'll be talking about some of the solutions, too, that present themselves in reality here.

ANDERSON: Let's hope.

DOBBS: Dave, thanks a lot. It's always great to see you.

ANDERSON: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Dave Anderson.

Still ahead, the results of our poll tonight and a preview of tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now the results of our poll tonight. It is overwhelming, 97 percent of you say terrorists could cross our borders just as easily as illegal aliens, only 3 percent do not see that.

The fact of the matter is, it raises a question why people on Capitol Hill can't quite see that.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. We continue our series on the cultural decline in this country.

Tomorrow, why doesn't the United States require immigrants to learn English?

My guests will face off on the issue. Victor Davis Hanson, author of "Mexifornia" and Ruben Navarette, author of "A Darker Shade of Crimson."

And Congressman Pete Hoekstra, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee will be our guest. He says the intelligence bill will create a more aggressive, more vibrant, more organized intels community. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York.

"ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired December 7, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Congress voting on a massive overhaul of our intelligence community. That vote is imminent. We'll report the results as soon as the vote is taken.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a good intelligence reform bill. There's good law enforcement provisions.

DOBBS: Two keep congressional chairman stood on principal against the intelligence legislation. Congressman Duncan Hunter, who eventually won concessions. And Congressman James Sensenbrenner who at least succeeded in focusing Congress, the Senate and the public on the importance of border security. Both are our guests tonight.

The CIA apparently still can't keep a secret. But how secret is it, really, that security in Iraq is deteriorating? We'll have a special report.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People leave in this town for a lot of different reasons.

DOBBS: Medical authorities the world over are worried that bird flu will be the next pandemic. Tens of millions of people could lose their lives if there's an outbreak. Tonight I'll be talking with one of the world's leading microbiologists, Dr. Donald Low.

A steroid scandal in Major League Baseball. Should Congress take action? Why are we allowing professional sports to contribute to the decline of our culture? We'll have a special report, and I'll be joined by "New York Times" Pulitzer prize winning columnist, David Anderson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, December 7. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

Congress is expected to vote within the hour on a huge overhaul of this country's intelligence agencies. Those intelligence reforms will create a national intelligence director and a new counter- terrorism center.

But several Republican congressmen are likely to vote against the intelligence bill because it fails to address concerns about border security.

We begin with two reports tonight: Ed Henry from Capitol Hill, Dana Bash from the White House. First, we go to Ed Henry -- Ed.

ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

Speculation was flying around the capitol this afternoon that this historic deal may be unraveling because of a controversy over those immigration provisions being left out.

But the kinks have been worked out. And the House is now poised to pass this bill later this hour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY (voice-over): Outside the capitol, flags at half-staff, marking the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Inside the capitol, history in the making, a sweeping intelligence bill. Supporters say it will help prevent America from experiencing another day of infamy.

SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D), FLORIDA: Today, after a half a century we are committed and on the verge of making some fundamental reforms that will reduce the chances of another Pearl Harbor or another 9/11 occurring.

HENRY: But Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, whose immigration provisions were left out, said the reform was incomplete.

REP. JIM SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Congress' job is to prevent a terrorist event from happening rather than managing the consequences of it. And good intelligence is useless without good homeland security.

HENRY: At a closed-door meeting of House Republicans, Sensenbrenner got sustained applause from angry conservatives, a sign President Bush's victory might come with some political costs.

REP. ZACH WAMP (R), TENNESSEE: This may be the most divided the Republican house conference is on any major Bush initiative in the last four years, because I think we're still split sort of down the middle.

HENRY: Supporters of the 9/11 bill say Sensenbrenner's measures would have sunk the legislation.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME), CHAIRMAN, GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS: We just could not let the most significant reforms of our intelligence community in 50 years go down because of controversy over issues that were not recommended by the 9/11 Commission.

HENRY: The bill does include some immigration changes: an increase in border patrol agents, more detention beds and stepped up criminal penalties for alien smuggling.

Negotiators admit they could have gone further. But they didn't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. REP. DAVID DREIER (R), CALIFORNIA: But I think that we've come out with a work product that is one that is the best we can do at this point.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HENRY: Republican leaders have pledged to try to finish the job in January by bringing up Sensenbrenner's proposals. But with a lack of consensus at this point, Republicans are facing a major inter-party fight over immigration -- Lou.

DOBBS: An inter-party fight as well, but also, it appears that the White House has agreed to move ahead with immigration reform, border security enhancement when the 109th Congress begins. Is that correct?

HENRY: Absolutely. It's clear from Republican leaders. They said on the Hill today that there's a commitment that they, very early, in the first must-pass legislation, they're going to try to attach some of these provisions that Sensenbrenner wants.

The question, though, is whether there will be enough votes for those provisions to be added. But the leaders are committed, in part, with President Bush's support, to at least consider these proposals at the very beginning of next year -- Lou.

DOBBS: Ed Henry from Capitol Hill. Thank you, Ed.

As Ed just reported, Bush's victory on intelligence reform may cost him vital political capital in Congress. Several influential lawmakers are angry that this intelligence reform legislation fails to stop illegal aliens from obtaining U.S. driver's licenses and improving substantively our border security.

White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An emotional President Bush at Camp Pendleton to thank Marines hard hit by the Iraq War.

No mention of it here, but this is also a commander in chief upbeat at word he avoided a political embarrassment back in Washington. Intelligence agency reforms he backed are finally on the way to his desk.

COLLINS: The president's personal involvement clearly makes a difference. In this case, it determined the fate of this very important legislation.

BASH: Privately, many involved in the intelligence debate complained the president engaged too late. It's a problematic first- term pattern, say some, who hope he learned a lesson for tougher challenges awaiting him. TIMOTHY ROEMER, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: The president said, in the days after the election, that he was willing to use political capital on Social Security reform and tax reform. If he would have lost this, however, it really would erode some of that capital.

BASH: White House sources concede this early legislative victory was crucial for a president trying to use the post-election period to build support to help Bush his ambitious second-term agenda in a divided America.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I think this does help set the stage for the second term, because it shows what we can get done when we work together in a bipartisan way.

BASH: But the president's fight with fellow Republicans, not Democrats, on intelligence reform exposes a harsh reality. A bigger GOP Congress does not mean a rubber stamp.

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: This Congress, you know, which saw its majority grow, and received a mandate from the American people for fiscal discipline, limited government, and traditional moral values.

And we will work toward that vision with the president, occasionally disagree with the president on how that vision is worked out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And the intelligence bill has near unanimous support among Democrats. That's a luxury the president will not have when trying to tackle some of the monumental changes in big areas like tax code reform, Social Security reform.

And Lou, those are areas where there are still differences, pretty big differences, among Republicans when it comes to specifics -- Lou.

DOBBS: And Dana, we're going to see a vote in the House on this intelligence reform here within the hour. We'll find out just how much political capital the president has expended in winning agreement on this legislation.

Thank you very much, Dana Bash from the White House.

Later here, I'll be talking with two congressional chairmen who played the leading role in the final negotiations on this bill, Congressman Duncan Hunter, who chairs the House Armed Services Committee and won concessions, and Congressman James Sensenbrenner, who highlighted the critical importance of border security and improving it, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee.

With one caveat, and that is, of course, so long as that vote is timely, but we are expecting that that vote will come at a point at which we will be able to talk with the two chairmen.

Turning to overseas news, there's a grim warning tonight about the security situation in Iraq from the CIA station chief in Baghdad. The officer's report appears to contradict more optimistic assessments about Iraq from senior members of the Bush administration.

National security correspondent David Ensor reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The classified cable from the outgoing CIA station chief in Baghdad warns that the situation is deteriorating and is likely to continue to do so. It warns of more violence, say U.S. officials, and sectarian fighting among Iraq's Sunnis, Shia and Kurds, unless there are clear improvements soon and the control of the Iraqi government and in the economy.

Bad news for the Bush administration.

FLYNT LEVERETT, SABAN CENTER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: They are literally between a rock and a hard place right now. And I think that's an accurate reading of the situation. And I think the CIA is doing its job to paint that picture as accurately and as vividly as it can for policymakers.

ENSOR: U.S. officials say the CIA cable's assessment is mixed, in that it caused the Iraqi people resilient and says political progress towards elections is being made.

But the station chief's bleak tone overall is in marked contrast with some of the administration's public statements on Iraq.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The schools are open. The hospitals are open. The clinics are open. The stock market's open. The currency is stable. And awful lot's going well.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The terrorists will be defeated, Iraq will be free, and the world will be more secure.

ENSOR: Bush administration officials could hardly be pleased by the leak of an unvarnished CIA assessment. U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte, U.S. officials say, added a dissenting note, saying he thinks the cable does not give enough credit to coalition efforts against Iraqi insurgents.

The cable was widely distributed in the government, though, so the leak could have come from a number of places.

LEVERETT: People leak in this town for a lot of different reasons. My experience is, actually, that the CIA leaks a lot less than most of the policy agencies in town do.

ENSOR: Despite the uproar recently about intelligence chief Porter Goss' memo to staff saying they should "support the Bush administration," officials note that Goss approved distributing the CIA station chief's warnings around the government.

(on camera): There was, after all, another line in that Goss memo. It said to CIA officials that their job is to tell truth to power and let the facts speak for themselves.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And while that leaked CIA station chief memo may be contradictory of some in the Bush administration, it appears to be in almost complete agreement with an earlier estimate that made its way to the public back in July.

Russian President Vladimir Putin today strongly criticized U.S. policy in Iraq. President Putin said it will be impossible to hold elections in Iraq when, in his words, foreign troops are occupying the country.

Putin's criticism comes days after he blasted U.S. policy in Ukraine. In that speech, the Russian president said policies based on what he called baric room principles are extremely dangerous.

Well, dangerous or not, this was a clear illustration of one major success for U.S. foreign policy today. President Hamid Karzai became the first freely elected leader of Afghanistan.

President Karzai took his oath of office in a ceremony in Kabul attended by Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. That ceremony took place three years after U.S.-led forces overthrew the Taliban regime and expelled al Qaeda terrorists from Afghanistan.

Still ahead here, I'll be talking with Congressman Duncan Hunter, Congressman James Sensenbrenner about the intelligence reform legislation, what it achieves and what still must be done to secure our national borders.

Also, a steroid scandal in Major League Baseball. The Players Association meeting tonight. We'll have that report for you. And I'll be joined by "New York Times" Pulitzer Prizewinning sports columnist Dave Anderson.

And a surprising decision on prescription drug imports by this country's largest and most influential doctors organization. We'll have that special report for you just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Major League Baseball is facing its greatest scandal in years. The steroid scandal is embarrassing baseball and its fans, leaving some players' achievements and their records very much in doubt.

The players and team owners tonight are closer, apparently, to an agreement on tougher restrictions on the use of steroids. The new rules would include more frequent drug testing and harsher penalties for players who are found to be using those banned substances.

Matt Morrison now from the Players Association annual meeting in Phoenix, Arizona -- Matt.

MATT MORRISON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.

The players union executive director Donald Fehr stepped out on those discussions this afternoon to address the media, and he confirmed that the union is willing to amend their current drug testing policy with a goal of having a new agreement by spring training.

Mr. Fehr said the issue was on the agenda long before the events of last week when news of grand jury testimony of Jason Giambi and Barry Bonds indicated that both Major League superstars admitted to using performance-enhancing drugs. Fehr said the testing program never was perfect, and improvement is the key.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD FEHR, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PLAYERS ASSOCIATION: When you have experience, if you see that there are other things that can be done, if some of the things you were concerned about don't appear to be as big a concern in light of experience as they might have been ahead of time and you can do things better, there's no reason why you shouldn't do that, and that's why the players are moving ahead in this fashion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORRISON: Don, in response to Senator John McCain's calling for some legislative input as soon as January, the executive director, Donald Fehr, said that he expects to speak with the senator later this week and have discussions throughout the remainder of the year and that he hopes to come to an understanding with members of the government by early next year.

DOBBS: Well, come to an understanding is a far cry from actually doing something in that meeting. Are we just seeing what typically happens between the owners and the Players Association, that is nothing in the way of advancing the interests of the game on this specific issue?

MORRISON: Actually, I think that Donald Fehr actually addressed that better than he ever has in the past. That the players union is willing to open this contract which runs through 2006 and make an amendment here is movement that we've never seen from the players union in the past.

Today, perhaps we could say it's lip service because we've heard something to that in the past.

DOBBS: Right.

MORRISON: However, he is responding to public pressure and to government interference by saying they hope to get something done by spring training. And, at this point, Lou, we can only take him on his word. DOBBS: Well, we -- I think we have a number of other options we can look over the progress and the achievements of both the Players Association and the owners on this issue over the course of the past decade.

It is, in point of fact, a scandalous record on their parts, and I think what does make a difference, as you point out, Matt, this time a U.S. senator by the name of John McCain saying he will do something if they don't.

Matt Morrison, thank you for bringing us up to date.

We'll have much more on this worsening steroid scandal in Major League Baseball later here in the broadcast. Dave Anderson, Pulitzer Prizewinning sports columnist of "The New York Times," is our guest.

The nation's largest and most influential doctors' organization today said it supports allowing more prescription drug imports into this country. The American Medical Association decision could pressure lawmakers to make it far easier for Americans to buy those cheaper prescription drugs from outside this country.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Prevacid is a popular drug used for acid reflux. In the United States, it can cost as much as $410. In Canada, less than half that amount, $190.

The American Medical Association, concerned about the rising costs of prescription drugs, changed its policy in favor of importing drugs from Canada and elsewhere at its semiannual meeting.

DR. JOHN NELSON, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: We need the costs to be low so that our citizens, particularly our seniors, don't have to make a choice between eating or paying the rent and buying medication. These drugs must be safe.

SYLVESTER: The AMA says U.S. pharmacies and wholesalers should be allowed to import drugs, but only if the Food and Drug Administration can electronically track the origin to ensure safety. States, including Illinois, Wisconsin and Missouri, have moved forward on their own, ignoring an FDA ban against importing prescription drugs.

But pharmaceutical companies raise safety concerns and argue importing drugs could leave the drug industry ailing.

DR. PAUL ANTONY, PHRMA: If we import medicines from Canada, we're importing price controls, and importing price controls will negatively effect the development of new medicines for patients.

SYLVESTER: Americans end up paying more for medicine because other industrialized countries have price regulations. The result is that American consumers end up subsidizing hefty research and development costs for the rest of the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SYLVESTER: A drug importation provision passed the House last session, but stalled in the Senate, but things could change next year now that the American Medical Association is on record giving its conditional support -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, free trade is so popular in Washington, perhaps they will decide that free trade should extend to pharmaceuticals as well.

Thank you very much.

Lisa Sylvester from Washington.

One American company is suggesting Americans deny their culture and their country altogether when traveling overseas. Tshirtking.com suggests Americans disguise themselves in shirts with Canadian flags on them so as to not invite rudeness from their European hosts. The company even includes a quick reference guide in case someone asks about Canada.

Well, we have a few ideas about what Americans could wear when traveling abroad. How about this one? Go USA. Perhaps this one. Proud to be an American.

Still ahead here tonight, Congress is about to vote on the biggest intelligence overhaul in half a century. Two of the most prominent people in that debate, Congressman Duncan Hunter, Congressman James Sensenbrenner, join us next.

And then doctors and health officials warning that the next pandemic could kill tens of millions of people around the globe. They've issued a new alert about avian flu, which they say could easily spread to humans. Dr. Donald Low, one of the world's most prestigious experts on infectious disease, is my guest next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner and Congressman Duncan Hunter, each with their own unique view of the intelligence reform compromise.

But, first, let's take a look at some of the top stories here tonight.

In Maryland, more than 100 FBI investigators are searching for clues in a suspected case of ecoterrorism. Some $10 million in damage done when a subdivision was torched. Twelve homes were destroyed in those fires. Another 14 homes were damaged. No injuries reported, however. Investigators have confirmed that arson is the cause. Environmentalists had protested that new development saying it threatened a nearby wetland.

In Chicago, investigators are searching for the cause of a high- rise fire that injured 37 people. Twenty-two firefighters were among those injured. It required more than 300 firefighters and six hours to control that fire.

As many as 600 U.S. Marines are on their way to the Philippines to help the flood-ravaged country. A recent wave of storms there has left hundreds dead, as many as 200,000 people homeless.

And the United States is also sending a Marine security team to Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, where eight people were killed in an attack on the U.S. Consulate yesterday. Security teams are often deployed in the aftermath of terrorist attacks. They will be there to help bolster security at the consulate.

My guest tonight is credited with helping to break the impasse over the intelligence reform legislation that is being voted on within the hour on the Hill. House Armed Services Committee Chairman Duncan Hunter joins us now.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Chairman.

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Good to be with you.

DOBBS: You have succeed in winning an important move on this legislation. Are you satisfied now -- you had voiced concerns about the chain of command. Are you satisfied now that this is substantive reform and the Pentagon will be left with its appropriate role in intelligence gathering and assessment?

HUNTER: Yes, I am. And I partnered with this last provision that we demanded be amended and put in the conference report with John Warner, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. We looked it over pretty carefully, we analyzed it and we worked it with the military, and this works.

And what this does, Lou, very simply, is this. Right now, our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan depend, to a large degree, on platforms, some of them satellites, other types of platforms, airplanes, that are sending them pictures and signals about the enemy, telling them where the bad guys are, what direction they're going in and how you can target them.

We were very concerned that in building this new intelligence authority and this new intelligence director, we were going to see that chain of command infringed upon in places like Iraq and Afghanistan and have problems in the future.

And so what we did was put in, I think, a very strong provision that says that that chain of command shall be respected and not abrogated, and we cite the statutes that say that the commander -- the combatant commander in Iraq or Afghanistan has control of every asset in that area, and we think we've got a good -- a very good package.

I am sorry to see that the driver's license legislation and the fence provision to finish the last part of my border fence in San Diego did not get into this. But I think the troops are paramount in this situation. I'm going to vote for the bill.

DOBBS: Certainly, our troops are paramount always. National security in every form, however, is paramount, I know, and it begins with you every day of your working life there on Capitol Hill, Congressman. But let's turn to a couple of the criticisms that have been offered here as well.

Amongst those criticisms is a suggestion that you and your counterpart in the Senate, Senator John Warner, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee -- the Senate Armed Services Committee, basically were trying to protect turf here and trying to protect the status quo, preserve the status quo, if you will, at the Pentagon.

How do you respond to those who have criticized you in that way?

HUNTER: Well, if it's turf, Lou, it's turf that's measured in the lives of our uniformed personnel.

We did this chain of command law back when the Marines in Lebanon were hit with that suicide car bomber and we lost 241 people, and we saw that while the commander of the theater ostensibly had command of the theater, the Marines were actually getting their direction from Washington, D.C., and we said, in this law that Senator Barry Goldwater put in place, you can only have one commander in the theater and he has to have control of all the military assets to protect his people and carry out the mission.

And very clearly, without this savings provision that John Warner and I insisted upon, we would have a real problem with these expanded powers of the intelligence authority. You might have a spy plane that you need to send over Fallujah in a firefight, and that pilot might say, wait a minute, do I have to check with the CIA in Washington before I can go? You shouldn't have to check with anybody.

DOBBS: Congressman, we're going to be moving to a vote here, and I know you have to return quickly to do so. What do you expect that vote to be because there seems to be a suggestion here that the conservatives in your party are more than a little upset about the way in which Congressman James Sensenbrenner, the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, has just been rolled altogether in this process.

HUNTER: Jim Sensenbrenner did a wonderful job, and, again, he tried to push my border fence. We were patching up the last two miles of border fence, his driver's license provision, absolutely necessary. What we've all been fighting for in the conference and what the Republican leadership has promised and have been working with the White House on is to get a vote early in the next several months on the driver's license provision and other immigration provisions.

DOBBS: Do you think that there will be as many as 50 votes on the part of the Republicans against this legislation? HUNTER: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. I think a number of members on our party, including myself, were very disappointed to see that -- the driver's license legislation is something we have to do. And the American people now understand it. They know about it. They're upset.

DOBBS: Congressman Duncan Hunter, we thank you very much. And we congratulate you on your successful negotiation with the powers that be, including the White House and the Senate, in getting that protection that you sought for national intelligence. Thank you.

HUNTER: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: In just a moment, I'll be talking with House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner about why he will refuse to vote in favor of this legislation and this compromise.

Also ahead here tonight, a chilling global warning about what health officials now say could be the next pandemic. Dr. Donald Low, one of the world's most respected experts on infectious diseases, is my guest here next.

And then, American culture in decline. How the abominable behavior of so-called professional athletes is having a direct impact on our young people. We'll have that special report and a great deal more still ahead here tonight. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: My next guest says the intelligence reform bill is incomplete. House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner has demanded that that bill do more to protect our nation's borders, specifically Congressman Sensenbrenner has called for that legislation to include a measure that would prevent millions of illegal aliens from obtaining driver's licenses in this country and to improve border security. Chairman Sensenbrenner joins us tonight from Capitol Hill. Good to have you with us.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R-WI), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Thank you again for having me, Lou.

DOBBS: Congressman, we have heard nothing from those in your party conference but plaudits for your moral and principled stand on this issue. Yet at this point, you don't have much of a guarantee, do you, that you're going to be able to succeed with legislation in the new Congress?

SENSENBRENNER: Well, I do have a guarantee that the driver's license and asylum provisions that fell off the table in the last 72 hours will end up being put in the first must-pass bill in the new Congress next year.

The problem has been with the United States Senate. They have been adamant in their refusal not to deal with anything in tightening up the driver's licenses, including denying them to illegal aliens, as well as doing anything to reform the asylum laws, which have been gamed by non-9/11 terrorists that bombed the World Trade Center and to shoot up the Los Angeles airport two and a half years ago.

DOBBS: And amongst the 9/11 terrorists, at least there were seven driver's licenses, not forged driver's licenses, we should point out, but seven of those licenses that have been obtained by fraud on the part of those hijackers. So it's a critical issue.

The 9/11 Commission itself, Congressman, pointed out that we desperately need to take on the issue of national identification, a careful review of the way in which we document births in this country, and driver's licenses. Why was the Senate, in your judgment, because you've spent a lot of hard hours with the Senate in conference, why could they simply dismiss the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission on this area and embrace them on others?

SENSENBRENNER: Because they were unwilling to stand up to the illegal aliens lobby. Denying illegal aliens driver's licenses is the right thing to do. And over 90 percent of the American public recognizes that. Unfortunately, the 15 United States senators who are on this conference committee didn't. And they're the ones that are going to have to answer for the fact that we have an intelligence reform bill which is incomplete. Good intelligence is no good unless we have good homeland security, and this bill is lacking and incomplete in the homeland security area.

DOBBS: And in that regard, do you plan to introduce legislation in the new Congress to address the somewhat restricted areas, not necessarily narrow, but the restricted areas of asylum reform and driver's licenses, or will you be more comprehensive in border security reform and immigration reform?

SENSENBRENNER: Well, the first thing I plan on doing is introducing legislation that deals with the driver's license asylum and the three and a half mile hole in the fence between San Diego and Tijuana that fell off the table in the conference on this intelligence bill. And I have commitments from the leadership that this will be sent over to the Senate early next year, and then the time will come for the American public to tell the senators to do the right thing, which they failed to do this time. We will be doing more in terms of a comprehensive border security legislation later on, which may or may not be part of an overall immigration bill. But if it is in an overall immigration bill, I can assure you that will not include amnesty for illegal aliens.

DOBBS: Congressman James Sensenbrenner, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, we thank you very much, sir, for being here this evening.

SENSENBRENNER: Thank you very much, Lou.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight on the need for immigration reform, border security reform. The question tonight is, do you believe terrorists could cross our borders just as easily as illegal aliens? Yes or no? Please cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.

Also coming up, a chilling warning about the world's next pandemic. The World Health Organization warns that it could kill tens of millions of people. I'll be talking with Dr. Donald Low, an expert in microbiology and infectious diseases here next.

And "Culture in Decline." Our week-long series of special reports. Tonight, we focus on professional athletes who are contributing, many say, to the decline in our culture. We'll have a special report for you.

And I'll be talking with "New York Times" Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Dave Anderson. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: More than one million new doses of flu vaccine will soon be available in this country. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson today said he expects those vaccines to arrive from Germany this month. They will help ease the U.S. shortage caused by a contamination at a British plant in October. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention will oversee the distribution, ensuring the doses are only given to high-risk patients.

Meanwhile, U.S. and international health officials are warning the Avian flu, bird flu, could become the next global pandemic that is once the disease mutates into a strain that can be passed by humans. Joining me now, microbiologist-in-chief at Toronto Mount Sinai, Dr. Donald Low, one of the best known microbiologists and experts on infectious diseases. Good to have you with us again.

This is troubling, to say the very least, to be talking about the prospect of a pandemic that could literally kill tens of millions of people around the world. What is focusing our international health authorities and national authorities on this disease at a point in which we have not seen a widespread outbreak of bird flu?

DR. DONALD LOW, MICROBIOLOGIST-IN-CHIEF: Well, we know that, from past history, that we see pandemics occur of influenza about every 20 to 35 years. It's been 35 years since we've had our last pandemic, which was the Hong Kong flu of 1967. And what we're seeing in the last couple of years is a strain of influenza that has caused disease in birds and has successfully jumped between birds and humans on a number of occasions. So it looks like all the ingredients are there for what could be the next pandemic.

DOBBS: And the idea that, because it has now moved to human beings, and we should point out, in southern Asia, that is raising concern. The estimates, the number of people that health authorities around the world are talking about being killed in a pandemic of this particular nature are astonishing. What is your best estimate of the number of lives at risk here from a bird flu pandemic?

LOW: Well, if we go back to the 1918 epidemic, the Spanish flu, that strain of influenza had a mortality rate, a death rate of about 2 percent. So every 100 people that got infected, two people would die. During that, there was anywhere from 20 to 40 million people died during that pandemic. So what about the strain we have today? The Avian strain, we don't know. It might even be worse than the strain of 1918. It might even have a higher mortality rate. We don't know. We don't know how infectious it's going to be. What we do know is it has killed people.

DOBBS: It has killed people. Secretary Tommy Thompson yesterday, Dr. Low, pointed out that about 40 people in Asia have contracted the bird flu, the Avian flu. Thirty of them have died. That mortality rate, the lethality, would certainly not be that high in a pandemic, would it?

LOW: We hope not. We hope we don't know how many people have actually been exposed to this and have not died. Maybe there was hundreds or thousands of people that have had Avian influenza, we don't know. But it's disconcerting to hear that the 40 that we do know about, that 70 percent of them died. So those are really astounding numbers, and that's why people are so concerned. It won't be that high, but it will probably be as high as what happened back in 1918.

DOBBS: Where do we stand with all of the research that is going on, not only in the United States and Canada, but around the world, where do we stand in terms of hope for a viral vaccine or an anti- viral drug of some sort that could help mankind should there be a pandemic?

LOW: Well, we are -- we do have the advantage now of having proper surveillances in place that we can watch this, that we can try to contain, if it does happen, and we can develop a vaccine sooner than later. But it's still going to be six to nine months before vaccines will become available on a large scale. But this time around, though, the good news is, we do have anti-viral drugs, new drugs, that we can use to treat influenza. Of course, the question is, how much of these drugs do you need, and will you have enough of them when the pandemic occurs, if it does occur?

DOBBS: Dr. Dennis (sic) Low, as always, we thank you for your insight and for bringing your expertise to bear.

LOW: Thank you.

DOBBS: Thank you.

Still ahead, our culture in decline. Are professional athletes setting a good example for our children? If you said yes, we'll have a special report that may ask you to change your mind. And I'll be joined by Pulitzer Prize winning sports writer Dave Anderson of the "New York Times." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In our series of special reports this week, we are focusing on American culture in decline. And tonight focusing on professional athletes and their influence on our culture. These very highly paid, very public figures are cheating and fighting and being thrown out of games. And many of these are the same people that so many of our children simply idolize. Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The national pastime is tarnished. Fights used to happen between teams. Now fans and players like Dodgers outfielder Milton Bradley are squaring off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last thing I want to do is hurt my team and especially the fans out there.

WIAN: It's not just baseball. Hockey players brawl with fans. College football players battle state troopers. And the NBA has taken player/fan violence to another level.

T.J. SIMERS, "L.A. TIMES" SPORTS COLUMNIST: Today's athlete is superman. He's invincible. He has so much money coming his way, endorsements and everything else. And so many second chances that they can hang in there and basically say or do anything and feel like there's never going to be a repercussion.

WIAN: Take Bradley. This year alone, he was ejected from four games, suspended twice, arrested on disorderly conduct charges, and jailed for eluding police. Basketbrawl combatant Ron Artest is serving his eighth suspension in two years. And Latrell Sprewell, best known for once choking his coach, recently called a $9 million a year contract offer insulting saying he has a family to feed. These words to a fan Saturday drew a one-game suspension.

LATRELL SPREWELL, NBA PLAYER: Suck my (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

WIAN: Then there's cheating. Several Major League Baseball players have reportedly admitted steroids use to a grand jury. Though homerun king Bonds claims his use was unintentional. Aspiring pros are taking notice. A recent survey found 56 percent of male high school athletes agree that successful people do whatever they have to do to win, even if others consider it cheating.

MICHAEL JOSEPHSON, JOSEPHSON INSTITUTE OF ETHICS: Today winning really is everything with an awful lot of young people. And when you think that this is the next generation of corporate executives and politicians and nuclear inspectors, it's a little bit scary.

WIAN: Even pro golf which prides itself on honesty has problems. Twenty-eight percent of caddies told "Golf" magazine they've seen pros cheat.

(on camera): Owners aren't likely to crack down on player misconduct until fans revolt. And that doesn't appear likely. Attendance at major sporting events is either at or near record levels.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: To take up this issue, I'm joined now by Dave Anderson, Pulitzer Prize winning sports columnist for "The New York Times." And in his column today, Anderson responded to reports that Barry Bonds said he was unaware he was using steroids by writing, "This his ignorance of the true identity of those substances is more childish than a youngster's excuse that the dog ate my homework."

Dave Anderson joins us here. Good to have you with us, Dave.

DAVE ANDERSON, "NEW YORK TIMES": Nice to be here.

DOBBS: This is a very sad time, at best, for baseball.

ANDERSON: Well, for every sport. As your piece showed, but especially for baseball. While there's always been smoke that all these players -- not all, but many of these great players have been taking steroids, just by looking at them, you can tell that they were. You know, last week the flames came out of the smoke. And as a result, Senator McCain is involved, and even the union finally is willing, apparently, from what we hear, at least, to create a stricter drug testing situation. The owners have wanted it, and the union has fought it for years.

DOBBS: Fought it successfully for years.

ANDERSON: Absolutely.

DOBBS: To the point you can only be tested once, as it stands now.

ANDERSON: Yes. Even the program they have, which really developed after Ken Caminiti blew the whistle about a year and a half ago. And even that has no real teeth to it.

DOBBS: No real teeth to it, and one wonders how much of the real interest in reforming baseball is simply lip service on the part of the athletes and the owners themselves. Because so much money is involved. We look at the relationship between the players, the owners, the national media, the big corporate sponsors...

ANDERSON: Sure.

DOBBS: ... there's so much at stake here. What is the sacrifice of a few lives and the diminishment of our culture, cheating and lying, taking controlled substances.

Do you think that's at the essence of what's happening here?

ANDERSON: Well, it definitely is. That's what it will all boil down to, sooner or later, sure. The culture of baseball, as opposed or in connection with the culture of the country. And the culture of kids who see these guys hitting mammoth home runs at age 40, not just Barry Bonds, but a lot of them. And football players, years ago, before Lyle Alzado (ph) died of steroids, you know, and it's cost the lives of several. I can't give you an exact number, but it's cost the lives of several of young high school, college athletes.

DOBBS: It's also costing us something else, too, and that's the respect for...

ANDERSON: Absolutely.

DOBBS: ... for a code of honor, dignity, of basic just honesty.

ANDERSON: You know, and integrity, really. I mean, the integrity of the sport. Whether it's the number of home runs that Barry Bonds will hit as opposed to the integrity of the home runs that Hank Aaron hit.

DOBBS: You know what I can imagine a young man or even a young lady at home in high school thinking, you know, they're listening to Dave Anderson and Lou Dobbs talk about this and saying that's fine for those old fogies.

ANDERSON: Sure.

DOBBS: But I have to make first team. I have to get ready for the transition to college sports, and I've got to have a boost. Where are they going to find influence that says wake up to the reality?

ANDERSON: Well, the influence should be medical, really. Because there is enough medical research and medical information to let young people know that this is not good for you. When Ken Caminiti died in October, the autopsy showed that he died of a drug overdose. But yet, he admitted, for several years, he had taken steroids, and it changed his life. And one of the side effects of steroids is death at an early age, whether it's a heart attack or whatever it may be.

DOBBS: One would hope that parents would have that kind of influence that would bring it about, too often parents are not in the home. One would hope a lot of things. But the fact is that if professional sports, whether it be the Major League Baseball, the NFL, the NBA, said, you're going to have conduct that shows both respect for the integrity of the game, respect for the dignity of the audience, the fans, and yourself, yourself.

ANDERSON: Right.

DOBBS: And there will be real penalties.

ANDERSON: That's the basic thing, yourself. Should be.

DOBBS: And what we have done is embrace the lowest common denominator.

ANDERSON: Well, baseball, especially, Lou. I mean, the NFL has had a steroid -- pretty legitimate steroid and pretty strict steroid testing program for close to 15 years.

DOBBS: Right.

ANDERSON: Steroids don't seem to be as useful to the athletes in basketball and hockey. I'm sure that some of them take them. But track and field, the Olympic is -- has been wrecked by steroids.

DOBBS: Well, as we begin the examination, let's hope that we'll be talking about some of the solutions, too, that present themselves in reality here.

ANDERSON: Let's hope.

DOBBS: Dave, thanks a lot. It's always great to see you.

ANDERSON: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Dave Anderson.

Still ahead, the results of our poll tonight and a preview of tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Now the results of our poll tonight. It is overwhelming, 97 percent of you say terrorists could cross our borders just as easily as illegal aliens, only 3 percent do not see that.

The fact of the matter is, it raises a question why people on Capitol Hill can't quite see that.

Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. We continue our series on the cultural decline in this country.

Tomorrow, why doesn't the United States require immigrants to learn English?

My guests will face off on the issue. Victor Davis Hanson, author of "Mexifornia" and Ruben Navarette, author of "A Darker Shade of Crimson."

And Congressman Pete Hoekstra, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee will be our guest. He says the intelligence bill will create a more aggressive, more vibrant, more organized intels community. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York.

"ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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