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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired December 10, 2004 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me, the question should not be whether Kofi Annan should remain in charge. To me, the larger question is whether he should be in jail.

JOHN DANFORTH, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: Some have suggested to me that it appears as though what the United States really wants to do is to force the resignation of the secretary-general.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: I have quite a lot of work to do and I'm carrying on with my work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: How do you get 191 member countries of the United Nations to agree on something? Have some American congressmen and editorial writers demand the resignation of the U.N.'s leading officer, Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

It was a standing ovation inside the U.N. General Assembly, an organized display of support for the under-fire secretary-general who was in the hall to discuss how to change the way the United Nations operates, not to plead for help for his own case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's quite unusual. I think the last time we saw a standing ovation was when President Clinton came to the United Nations, when he was in trouble.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think from the U.N. members it's a recognition that he has done an excellent job, so I think that people want to support his work, but also in a sense people want to support this organization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: While they stood in New York at the United Nations, one U.S. legislator wants Kofi Annan sitting behind bars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me, the question should not be whether Kofi Annan should remain in charge. To me, the larger question is whether he should be in jail at this point in time. Literally, just going back on your comment, if this were to occur in any corporate scandal in the United States, you would be hearing cries from both sides of the aisle at this point in time for his immediate resignation and also for his arrest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: See, we went five minutes before I said the words Oil For Food. That's what most of the Annan troubles are about, that complex transaction deal between Iraq and the United Nations.

Close friends of Annan fume when they hear demands for his resignation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a Republican, certainly they don't reflect my views or the views of the vast majority of Republicans, not to speak of the vast majority of Americans.

Americans in every poll support the United Nations overwhelmingly. This is a bum rap, and I think frankly someone like Senator Coleman should be ashamed of himself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Senator Coleman led the call for an Annan resignation.

Though President Bush was initially cautious in his support of Annan, the United States joined in the standing ovation for the secretary-general. Washington's ambassador, though, not in the hall.

The next day, after several hours, as he put it, to get his act together, John Danforth said the United States is not trying to push Kofi Annan out of office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANFORTH: Our view of the performance of the secretary-general is that he has done a good job, that he is doing a good job, that we have worked with him, that we anticipate working with him in the future. That there is no question that we have heard raised by anybody as to the personal integrity of the secretary-general.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Well, let's see what happens if one of the investigations underway turns up evidence of U.N.-based corruption or misconduct or negligence, perhaps resting with Kofi Annan or his friends or family.

This story is not over yet, despite the unity expressed in the General Assembly. Others, though, think it should be.

Joining us from Capitol Hill, in Washington, is one of the congressmen who would like Kofi Annan out of office, Republican Scott Garrett from the state of New Jersey. Also in Washington is the author of a book called "Inside the Asylum: Why the U.N. and Old Europe are Worse Than You Think," Jeb Babbin. Mr. Babbin is a former U.S. assistant secretary of defense.

On the other side of this U.N.-U.S. rift, Yahya Mahmassani, ambassador representing the League of Arab States at the United Nations, here with us in the studio, and John Ruggie, former advisor at the United Nations to Kofi Annan and now teaching at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government.

Thank you all for being here.

Congressman Garrett, your country's U.N. envoy, John Danforth, offered consensus support from Washington to Kofi Annan this week, mentioning his personal integrity. What do you say now?

REP. SCOTT GARRETT (R), NEW JERSEY: I say the same thing I said earlier this week. You know, the principle issue is one that you just said earlier on. It's the Food For Oil scandal that has grown from $10 billion to over $20 billion and we held a press conference this week to highlight that issue and to say that the entire United Nations, Kofi Annan on down, has not been forthcoming enough with the information so that we can basically have the full facts before the American public and the world public as well.

ROTH: But Oil For Food wasn't $21 billion, because a lot of that was smuggling between Iraq, Jordan and Syria.

GARRETT: Well, your point, you said you waited five minutes before you got into it, but Oil For Food obviously is the larger portion of this, and as you know, there are a number of investigations going on right now, almost literally as we speak, on the Hill with regard to this. But the United Nations failed to --

(CROSSTALK)

GARRETT: -- provide the information to us.

YAHYA MAHMASSANI, LEAGUE OF ARAB STATES REP. TO U.N.: Richard, let me say something here.

I've heard the congressman. I think the congressman ought to retract his statement -- I hope he does -- and express his apologies to Kofi Annan and to the 191 membership of the United Nations -- if your government would express its confidence and support for Kofi Annan.

I think you ought to wait until the investigation is over and then decide. I don't think it's a good thing to start now, preempting or prejudging the outcome of the investigation. It's your operation -- you don't call for Kofi Annan to be in jail. I think you ought to retract your statement, Congressman, if you respect yourself and you respect your government and you respect the United Nations.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: All right -- Congressman.

GARRETT: Your point is exactly the one that we're trying to make here. Until the investigations are complete -- the investigations can't even begin in earnest until we get the information from the United Nations, which the leadership of the United Nations has refused to turn over.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: John Ruggie, go ahead -- John.

JOHN RUGGIE, HARVARD UNIV.: Richard, there's a couple of things that have already been said that are just fundamentally not true.

ROTH: I hope nothing that I've said.

RUGGIE: No, nothing that you have said, Richard.

First of all, the $21 billion number is absolute total fiction. The only way you could humanly arrive at that number is by adding up every illegal dollar that Saddam Hussein managed to make since the 1991 war, most of which was illegal oil smuggling, about $6 billion of which was not only condoned by the United States but required the secretary of state each and every year to certify that that smuggling was in the national security interest of the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Jeb Babbin.

RUGGIE: . and it was certified through the Congress.

JEB BABBIN, AUTHOR: Can I interject a little perspective in this whole thing?

We're spending an awful lot of time worrying about whether Kofi Annan should go or stay. Number one, he's not going to stay beyond his current term in the United Nations. Number two, leaving Kofi Annan out of the picture is the only way to really focus on what's going on in the United Nations.

The United Nations has some very fundamental problems which it is not addressing, one of the least of which is the Oil For Food corruption.

The congressman is absolutely right. The United Nations, as the president said a week or so ago, has to be open. It has to be accountable. It is not. It is refusing to be accountable.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Jeb Babbin -- all right -- let me.

MAHMASSANI: No, no. I want to say a point.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Jeb, the United States ambassador, though, I'm not arguing here, but the point must be made that the United States ambassador approved this investigation run by Paul Volcker. So people might think in the streets, boy, the United States is not getting what it wants, but the United Nations deals with the government that's from Washington, so why.

(CROSSTALK)

BABBIN: I will tell you that that is not going to be the case.

(CROSSTALK)

BABBIN: Ambassador, the problem with what you're doing right now, Mr. Ambassador, is exactly the problem in the United Nations. You people try to shout us down. You have 191 votes total? OK. Fewer than 50 of those votes are democracies.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: All right, hold on. Let's get.

(CROSSTALK)

BABBIN: This is why you can't ever get anything seriously done in the United Nations. This is exactly the problem.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Go ahead, Congressman -- or John Ruggie.

(CROSSTALK)

RUGGIE: Richard, I'd like to get a calm word in here. I agree with the congressman, that there are problems of management in the United Nations. The Volcker investigation is investigating the Oil For Food in goal of that.

But I would like to make two basic points very quickly. One, we're not going to solve any of these problems if we misstate by a factor of 10 perhaps what the magnitude of the problem was. Secondly, we're not going to solve the problem -- if we want to put somebody in jail.

(CROSSTALK)

RUGGIE: -- if we put somebody in jail before an investigation is even.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Congressman Garrett, go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

GARRETT: . but you cannot say that anyone is misstating the facts if those facts are not being revealed, and up until this date -- and up until this point, the United Nations has refused to release the information to the American public and to the.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: I've got a question. Congressman Garrett, isn't it true -- so you don't want him arrested until the investigations, or do you want him arrested now? Yes or no?

GARRETT: I think the focus has got to be getting the information. That should be the first thing.

ROTH: All right, so let me ask you this. You know -- Senator Coleman, then, you disagree with his call for the resignation? Critics would say -- not me, but critics would say why isn't Donald Rumsfeld arrested since, as some Democrats in the House are charging, since the war mistakes were made and troops haven't been protected. Wouldn't the same work here?

GARRETT: I think that's a ludicrous comparison. What we are talking about here is the largest scandal in the history of the United Nations and probably the largest theft in the history of the world, whether that $22 billion is.

(CROSSTALK)

RUGGIE: It wasn't $22 billion. Can we get that straight?

(CROSSTALK)

MAHMASSANI: The Congressman said he wants Kofi Annan in jail. Now will he explain to me why.

ROTH: Well, he's explained about.

MAHMASSANI: No, no. But I want to know what evidence you have to put him in jail.

ROTH: Congressman Garrett, briefly.

MAHMASSANI: You don't have any evidence. All what you are trying to do is to put.

(CROSSTALK)

GARRETT: The scandal is already out there and if -- the scandal is out there and the evidence is what we are trying to receive.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHMASSANI: This is unfair. I think this is unfair. I think this is unfair.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Let me go to John Ruggie. John, let's take the other tack here. Accusations about the secretary-general's management, his son, Kojo, linked to the company that won a contract to inspect goods going into Iraq. Accusations against Kofi Annan's senior management, including sexual harassment and bad personnel decisions. U.N.-Congo prostitution ring.

When is enough is enough, where like a CEO, someone would say, hey, maybe the secretary-general, though he had a great first term, shouldn't be in the post right now, or should be much more open about what's going on there.

RUGGIE: Well, Richard, I guess the only answer that I would say at this point is that when some of these charges are actually proven and when it is clearly indicated that Kofi Annan had responsibility -- in the context of, for example, of his son, it may well be -- I don't know this for a fact, but it may well be that his son used his father's name to promote his own business interests. It would be very sad if that were the case, but he surely wouldn't be the first son who has ever done that or the first relative of a major political figure who has ever done that, and I've never seen a political leader go to jail for the activities of their relatives.

(CROSSTALK)

BABBIN: The problem with this whole discussion is that the United Nations is using its diplomatic and sovereign immunities to hide the ball.

RUGGIE: That is fundamentally false. That is an absolute falsehood.

BABBIN: That is absolutely not false, sir.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: We're going to take a break.

(CROSSTALK)

RUGGIE: It's Volcker who is not releasing those documents until he is done with them and he's releasing them in January.

BABBIN: That's wrong.

RUGGIE: That's not wrong.

BABBIN: That's not how investigations work.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: He says he is releasing in January, when he's done with them, the audits.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: As our guests continue the discussion, we're going to take a break. We're going to continue with the United Nations, Kofi Annan, the debate between the United States and the United Nations, the debate here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. We'll continue in a moment, as it will in Washington too.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Oil For Food program is an international disgrace that has become a global scandal and the American people expect the Congress of the United States to express their displeasure in the purse strings of this nation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Unfortunately, before the current investigations are even finished, including the U.N.'s own investigation being led by the highly respected Paul Volcker, some in the Republican Party, in their zeal to discredit the United Nations, are wrongly calling for Kofi Annan to resign, but if that's the standard which those Republicans feel should be applied to Mr. Annan, you would think they would apply it to be Mr. Tom DeLay as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: That's Senator Edward Kennedy at the United Nations this week, blasting Tom DeLay, a leading Republican in the U.S. House of Representatives, who is himself under somewhat of a cloud on ethics issues, and we could go a lot of different ways on this, but John Ruggie, you met with Kofi Annan this week. You used to work for him. Tell us, A, his mood, briefly and, B, did you and the senior team know that Oil For Food was something of a huge cash cow for Saddam Hussein, that the United Nations was mismanaging it?

RUGGIE: Richard, I don't think anybody at the time, including the United States government, which helped oversee the Oil For Food Program, had any idea what the magnitude of the problem was, but the fact is that the United States government and the United Nations were aware that there was a problem because it was pointed out to the Security Council on a number of occasions that there were pricing irregularities.

It was pointed out there was oil smuggling into Turkey and Jordan and into Syria.

ROTH: And Annan, himself, he's depressed, we hear. You can see it in his face.

RUGGIE: Well, he's had better days, I'm sure. But as he said earlier this week, he's got work to do and he's going to do the work that he was elected to do.

ROTH: Jeb Babbin, do you think that the United States -- do the people in the United States feel that Kofi Annan and the United Nations should do anything that the United States wants? That's what the perception is.

BABBIN: Absolutely not. That's not what's going on here -- Richard.

ROTH: All right, tell us what you think is the real issue.

BABBIN: The fact is, what I think the issue here is accountability. The United Nations is blocking this inquiry. They are not cooperating.

ROTH: But, no -- but Jeb, they're not.

BABBIN: We have no confident -- Richard, the United States, the American people, should have no confidence in the United Nations unless it opens up the books.

ROTH: Well then, why did the U.S. ambassador vote for that resolution? It doesn't make -- I can't understand.

(CROSSTALK)

BABBIN: I think you ought to ask the next ambassador and the next secretary of state, because I think you're going to have a much clearer and better view of what this administration thinks.

ROTH: Whose going to be the new U.S. ambassador?

BABBIN: I don't know. Maybe Charles Callus (ph).

ROTH: OK. That is a comedian who -- Ambassador Mahmassani, the comment is that the United Nations never gets really anything done, that it is -- I know we've heard it before -- that it's a regime filled with anti- Semitism, that the countries are out of tune with America, that Saddam Hussein was a dictator and should have been removed.

MAHMASSANI: Absolutely not true. The United Nations is doing a very constructive role. The United Nations has also maintained peace and security in the world. The United Nations has done a lot in the field of economic development and the environment and technology.

ROTH: The United States wants a special session on the Holocaust, the liberation of concentration camps in January. Would the Arab group be in favor of that?

MAHMASSANI: Well, we haven't really yet discussed this, but I know that something is going on on this regard. I think the European Union is leading this. But the United Nations has done a lot in other fields.

The United Nations has upheld human rights. The United Nations has upheld international law. It has stood by the charter of the United Nations.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Jeb.

BABBIN: There's not a word of truth in any of that.

Number one, for three years the United Nations hasn't even defined terrorism since 9/11. How can you oppose something if you can't even figure out what it is? The United Nations has done a lot for human rights? Then why do they have Libya and Sudan, the only place I know.

(CROSSTALK)

BABBIN: . is not going to do anything. It's all papering over the problems. The problems are that people like this ambassador are representing governments which are not legitimate voices of their people. They are despots and dictators.

MAHMASSANI: Absolutely not true. This is not the way to behave.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHMASSANI: What you are saying is only from the outside. You don't know what the United Nations is all about, unfortunately.

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: Congressman Garrett, go ahead -- if you've got something to say.

GARRETT: Let me just say this. One thing that I would hope that everyone on this program should be able to agree with, if we focus just for a moment on just the Food For Oil scandal, and I know there are a number of other scandals that we could focus on with regard to the United Nations in the past. That is for sure.

But the one thing we should all agree on is that as we go forward, all of the information in this scandal, whether it's $22 billion or $12 billion or $6 billion, all of the information should come out and it should come out quickly. That is what Congress was trying to do this week, and the United Nations has stood up and opposed it. And that is what we are asking for all the information and all the internal audit reports.

ROTH: But you should be criticizing the United States for not -- for voting for something -- for Paul Volcker to investigate. That's the problem.

(CROSSTALK)

GARRETT: What we are asking for the United Nations to do is to say that they will not stop people from testifying before the Congressional Committee hearings. We believe that.

(CROSSTALK)

RUGGIE: Richard, I want to -- I would like to agree with the congressman. I know this is a radical thought.

ROTH: You think there should be more openness?

RUGGIE: I want to agree with the congressman. I think every single document should come out.

ROTH: Immediately?

RUGGIE: . and I believe that every single document will come out.

While the 9/11 Commission was meeting and deliberating, documents were not being leaked out. They came out after. When Volcker is finished, and he's going to deliver a report in January -- he's already said all of the internal management reports that he has, and he has them all, will be released at the same time as his January report. That's a month away.

ROTH: All right, we're going to take a break here, last break. A better week for Kofi Annan with the ovation in the General Assembly. Also, no indigestion at a lunch with the Security Council. Germany's ambassador, after the chat-and-chew.

DIPLOMATIC LICENSE returns shortly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody in the room called for Kofi Annan's resignation. On the contrary, we all expressed our confidence in the secretary-general.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was going on was really well known, and this is why I'm frankly astonished that Congress is suddenly kind of woken up and gone, hello, there was something going on in the Oil For Food Program. This was well known to us for many, many years, what was going on, and why Congress didn't pay attention to it at the time I don't really understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: That's former British diplomat Corin Ross (ph), who was there when the Security Council Special Sanctions Committee would look at Oil For Food contracts with Iraq.

Of course, Congressman Garrett, your just a first year -- first timer -- you weren't there, but the implication from many critics is that the United States knew all well and good about corruption but they had to look the other way somewhat because they wanted to keep the sanctions and they let -- the other countries too -- they led Saddam determine who he would do business with. Final thoughts -- Congressman Garret, in New Jersey, go ahead.

GARRETT: Well, at the end of the day my constituents say that they do not want to be continuing to send taxpayer dollars to an organization that is riddled with scandal and is not going to open its books to the light of day to see exactly what was going on.

Food For Oil has to be resolved now. The information and the people involved should be allowed to testify before Congress.

ROTH: All right. Ambassador Mahmassani, do the other countries realize the growing threat, that the United States may say, hey, we don't want to deal with the United Nations anymore over this? Do you realize the perception problem there?

MAHMASSANI: No. I think the overwhelming majority of the people here do support the United Nations, in the United States. I think the United States is essential to our community, to our security, to prevailing peace in the world, and I think without the United Nations this world would be chaos, and to slam the United Nations is not going to help.

ROTH: All right, John Ruggie, the secretary-general, we were told, used to be in everybody's photo. They all wanted him when he went to Washington. He's going to go there on the 16th, but we were told nobody wants to be in the picture with him. What went wrong? Did the United Nations officials at the top, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) used to be, misread the whole situation?

RUGGIE: Well, I think that first of all, I don't think that's quite the case. I think you'll see photographs next week of the secretary- general with U.S. officials.

But the issue that the.

ROTH: Very briefly, got to go.

RUGGIE: The issue that the administration has had with Kofi Annan lately has had much more to do with the Iraq War than with anything else.

ROTH: All right, final five seconds, Jeb Babbin, the United Nations.

BABBIN: Kofi Annan is not the problem. The underlying basic problems have to be addressed if we're going to continue.

ROTH: Thank you all. I think the audience would love to have all four of you back, if they're ears are still ringing. Thank you all.

For everyone, that's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE for this week. I'm Richard Roth, in New York. Thanks for watching.

END

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