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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Bush Honors Bremer, Tenet, Franks; Pentagon Developing New Ways to Keep Soldiers Safe; Most States Not Prepared for Bioterror Attack

Aired December 14, 2004 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, defending Rumsfeld. The White House closes ranks around Rumsfeld in the face of rising criticism about his performance.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Secretary Rumsfeld has been doing a tremendous job during some very challenging times.

DOBBS: Journalists fighting to protect confidential sources to defend your right to know. Why the assault on the freedom to report? "New York Times" public editor Daniel Okrent is my guest.

A federal agency is bragging about a nine-month long investigation that broke up a human smuggling ring that allowed only 35 illegal aliens into the country. We'll examine whether that's really something to brag about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does it tell you about the effectiveness of our efforts to secure our borders?

DOBBS: And "Farmingville," a remarkable documentary about the impact of illegal aliens on this country and our society. It's been nominated for a top film award. I'll be talking with the documentary's director and producer, Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, December 14. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

The White House today strongly defended Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld from rising criticism of his leadership. White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Rumsfeld is doing a tremendous job.

President Bush today honored former CIA director George Tenet and two other officials responsible for U.S. policy in Iraq. He awarded them the Medal of Freedom.

Senior White House correspondent John King reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three familiar faces on hand in the East Room, the president himself defining the day's honor.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Presidential Medal of Freedom is our nation's highest civil award given to men and women of exceptional merit, integrity and achievement.

KING: Medals for former CIA director George Tenet, retired General Tommy Franks, and former Iraq civilian administrator Paul "Jerry" Bremer, three critical players in the Iraq war and its aftermath.

BUSH: My colleague once said that George has the intellect of a scholar and the demeanor of a longshoreman. His tireless efforts have brought justice to America's enemies and greater security to the American people.

One of the highest distinctions of history is to be called a liberator. And Tommy Franks will always carry that title.

Every political benchmark that the Iraqis set for themselves and that Jerry helped them meet was achieved on time or ahead of schedule, including the transfer of sovereignty that ended his tenure.

KING: To Bush critics unwarranted praise for men with leading roles in what they consider significant failures.

It was Tenet who told Bush there was no doubt Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

General Franks led the troops to swift militaries in Afghanistan and Iraq, but some Democrats believe he should have been less loyal to Mr. Bush and pushed for a bigger force to hunt Osama bin Laden and for more troops to help secure Iraq.

Ambassador Bremer did push for more troops but was overruled by the president. And even most Democrats give him high praise for trying to manage Iraq's difficult post-war transition.

But some see one big Bremer mistake: completely disbanding Iraq's army, leaving the country ill-prepared to deal with the violent post- war insurgency.

The day also included strong White House support for another key player in its Iraq policy, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Republican Senator John McCain says he has no confident in Rumsfeld because, in his view, the Pentagon long ago should have sent more troops to Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: But the president's spokesman saying today that Mr. Bush believes Secretary Rumsfeld is doing a tremendous job at a very difficult time and that the president is very pleased he's agreed to stay on into the second term -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, the fact that a distinguished senator such as Senator John McCain, a distinguished general, Norman Schwarzkopf, criticism of that sort is not partisan. It is -- it has got to be hitting the White House hard. What is the reaction there?

KING: Well, the White House says the president has full confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld. But officials here also say this criticism is a reminder to them that the election is over, but that there are still profound questions about the administration's Iraq policy. Most of the criticism from Democrats, but not all of it.

As you know, Senator McCain and General Schwarzkopf serving in Republican administrations or being a Republican in the case of Senator McCain. So as the Iraqi elections approach as the president asks for billions more to fund the operation into next year, this White House is bracing for a lot of questions and a lot more criticism -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, John.

The military today said two Marines have been killed in combat in Iraq. Overnight the Marine Corps said the troops were killed in Al Anbar province west of Baghdad. Thirteen hundred and three American troops have now been killed in Iraq.

In Baghdad, insurgents today exploded a car bomb near the heavily guarded Green Zone. This, the second bomb attack near the Green Zone, or within it, in the past two days.

Two people were killed, 15 others wounded, no Americans among those casualties.

Meanwhile, Poland says it will reduce the strength of its military contingent in Iraq by a third in February. The number of troops will be cut from 2,500 to 1,700.

The U.S. military is using new tactics in Iraq, trying to cut the number of insurgent attacks on supply convoys. The U.S. Air Force is using an increasing number of C-130 aircraft to airlift supplies. And our soldiers and Marines are employing new countermeasures against those deadly roadside bombs.

Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another roadside bomb detonates, a typical attack that has killed or wounded hundreds of American troops. The insurgent's camera keeps rolling as U.S. soldiers help those wounded in the Humvee.

CNN asked military expert James Carafano to look at the video to see what can be learned.

JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's good for the Americans to know that there could be somebody watching them when they do these things, and that it's good for the Americans to look at this to see how they respond to it and looking for things the bad guys might see in the way they respond to it.

STARR: U.S. troops are stepping up countermeasures. Every attack is analyzed; convoy routes are changed often. There is more reconnaissance.

Military officials emphasize that armor alone, the subject of so much controversy, is not the total solution against improvised explosive devices.

BRIG. GEN. DAVID RODRIGUEZ, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: You're looking at every place by how the thing was put together, how it was detonated, what type of material was used in it, what type of technology, because people design things differently.

STARR: New intelligence indicates explosives set off to the side of the road are proving very deadly. Part of the longer-term solution? New armored vehicles are being tested on the streets of Iraq that can better survive attacks, including a new version of the armored Humvee with a mounted laser that can destroy explosives up to 250 meters away.

New armored security vehicles are with U.S. military police units. They can survive 12-pound blasts under each wheel. Many convoys now carry jammers designed to keep remotely-detonated devices from exploding, but some convoys still travel dangerous roads without these high-tech packages.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: And Lou, as you say, the Air Force has stepped in. In the last month, cargo flights into Iraq have increased by 30 percent. The Air Force estimates that's keeping another 400 vehicles and 1,000 military personnel off those dangerous roads in Iraq -- Lou.

DOBBS: That's certainly good news, Barbara, but it is also, is it not, a tacit admission that the U.S. military and the Iraqi forces cannot main security -- maintain security on those roads?

STARR: Lou, this is a constant problem. The issue is basically that the insurgents, of course, can move in quickly, lay those explosive devices, run away, detonate them at a standoff range, and the U.S. may not be able to detect them in time.

That's why they're going for this multi-layered solution, if you will: more armor, more technology, more reconnaissance. But there is no question, this is a problem, they say, will be very, very difficult to solve.

DOBBS: Barbara, thank you very much. Barbara Starr reporting from the Pentagon.

Turning now to homeland security, there's a shocking indictment tonight of the readiness of states to respond to a bioterrorist attack. Only six states have the capability to quickly distribute vaccines and antidotes in an emergency, according to a new study released today.

Our national correspondent, Bob Franken, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly every locale suffers from what the report calls serious vulnerability to bioterrorism. The authors say the entire country is flirting with catastrophe.

DR. SHELLEY HEARNE, TRUST FOR AMERICA'S HEALTH: There are some big gaps out there. We need to take this seriously and get the job done.

FRANKEN: Among the worst off, Washington, D.C., which has already struggled with anthrax and ricin attacks and works to improve amidst the intense security of the upcoming inauguration.

DR. GREGG PANE, DIRECTOR, D.C. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: I didn't need the report to heighten my sensitivity to the importance of this issue, nor the planning of the inaugural.

FRANKEN: The best prepared states: Florida and North Carolina. Close behind, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Hampshire and Virginia.

The scores plunge downward through a total of seven levels of readiness. Near the bottom, in addition to D.C., Indiana, Pennsylvania and Wyoming. Alaska and Massachusetts are identified as the worst prepared.

The report cites the chaos that followed the flu vaccine shortage as an example of how unprepared the nation is. Even with drills like the one recently in Los Angeles with its massive seaport at nearby Long Beach, the problems remain.

MAYOR JAMES HAHN, LOS ANGELES: Seaports asked for three times the amount of money that the Congress appropriated for port security. Congress needs to see the threat coming into our seaports.

FRANKEN: The new report blames an overall decline in federal funding and frequent misuse of money at the state and local levels.

Just a week ago, the outgoing Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson warned about the food supply.

TOMMY THOMPSON, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We need better technology. We need more inspectors.

FRANKEN: Federal officials insist there has already been a huge increase in spending.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Still, the report's authors describe bioterrorism as the weakest link in Homeland Security, which could cost hundreds of thousands of lives -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

Bob Franken reporting from Washington.

Cuba has begun its biggest military exercises in two decades. That's because Fidel Castro's government is telling the Cuban people that the war games are intended to deter what could be an imminent U.S. invasion of the island.

But, in point of fact, those exercises are designed to distract the Cuban people from their own deep, chronic economic problems.

Lucia Newman reports from Havana.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's called Bastion 2004, the war games Cuba's communist government want heard all the way in Washington.

Defense Minister Raul Castro, the president's brother, boasts Cuba will turn into a hornet's nest for the Americans, if they invade.

"Let the Americans take a good look so they won't make the same mistakes they made in Vietnam and now in Iraq," he says.

Castro says the week-long military exercise is the most important since the Bay of Pigs invasion, mobilizing about 100,000 soldiers and millions of civilians. The Soviet-era equipment is as outdated at its place of origin.

(on camera): Trenches like this one were built all along Cuba's coast during the height of the Cold War and have been largely abandoned and forgotten, except for the occasional lovers that come here when they need a place to be alone.

But, during this week's military exercises, these trenches will again be put back in action as a way of telling the Cuban people that the threat from the United States today is as great as ever.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Cuban people deserve...

NEWMAN (voice-over): The White House calls the idea a red herring.

BOUCHER: Second of all, exercises are just I'd say one or more of the many things the Cuban government does to try to distract people from the problems that they face in their daily lives.

NEWSMAN: True, many Cubans are suspicious of their government's motives, but faced with a White House that's already invaded Iraq, some here believe anything is possible.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Havana. DOBBS: Turning now to our poll. And tonight, we focus on this country's secretary of defense. The question: How do you rate Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's performance -- excellent, good or poor? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

Still ahead here, "Red Star Rising." Will China replace the United States as the world's strongest military and economic superpower? We'll have a special report next from China.

And Wal-Mart exposed. A Wal-Mart hurts America by exploding its supremacy in retailing. Those are the charges of a number of labor organizations. We'll have the report.

And your right to know. Traditional media organizations under siege. Reporters facing new legal challenges, some facing jail. Tonight, I'll be talking with New York Times public editor Daniel Okrent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, the AFL-CIO is planning to launch a major new campaign against the world's most successful, largest retailer. The labor organization says it wants to educate Americans about how Wal- Mart keeps its prices low and at whose expense.

Christine Romans reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Labor unions say if consumers knew the real cost of Wal-Mart's low prices, they wouldn't shop there. They say Wal-Mart lowers the standard of living in the communities in which it operates.

It kills higher-paid supermarket jobs and puts small retailers out of business. In their wake, Wal-Mart employees, on average, earn $9.64 an hour; a year's pay, barely above $20,000. That's less than half the national average.

RON BLACKWELL, AFL-CIO: What we're after here is to try to raise the standards in Wal-Mart stores and in the factories that produce the goods that are sold in Wal-Mart. It's the country's largest employer, but it's also come to symbolize the low road path to competitive success.

ROMANS: Wal-Mart defends its low prices and says it does not cut costs through wages and benefits, but through driving down costs. In a statement, Wal-Mart says the "union seems to miss that Wal-Mart's ability to offer the lowest prices around is driven by a passion to drive cost out of our business at all levels."

Critics say that passion has cost millions of American jobs. Wal-Mart demands the lowest possible price on everything it sells. The only way U.S. manufacturers could meet those demands would be to ignore child labor laws and environmental protection, and, even then, it would be impossible. The result: Wal-Mart is China's third largest export market.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Lou, the unions hope consumers will send Wal-Mart a message with their wallets, but they concede there are many Americans who just can't afford to shop anywhere else.

DOBBS: The Wal-Mart cycle some have referred to it as and I think in some context, in worrying about wages here. We should point out the AFL-CIO is absolutely supportive of open borders and low- priced immigrant illegal as well as legal labor, and that also has a depressive effect on prices. So this is not a simple problem, nor an isolated single-issue matter.

Christine Romans.

Thank you.

Tonight, two alarming incidents in our nation's waterways are raising concerns about our national security and our dependency upon foreign-owned shipping. Two of those foreign ships dumped more than half a million gallons of oil and fuel into American waters.

Casey Wian has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Halves of the giant freighter Selendang Ayu remain stranded off the Alaskan coast after last week's deadly series of events. The ship lost power in high seas and drifted aground. Six crew members died when a rescue helicopter crashed. Forty-one thousand gallons of fuel spilled into Alaskan waters.

Just two weeks earlier, a bigger spill on the Delaware River; 473,000 gallons of crude oil leaked after a wayward chunk of cast iron leaked ripped through the hull of the Athos I.

Shipping accidents are actually down by more than a third during the past decade, and the industry is switching to double-hulled tankers to prevent massive spills, but too slowly for some.

SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D), NEW JERSEY: We haven't seen the industry do anything to accelerate the process. I think it's to save money. The larger ships that are going to be built with double hulls -- and that's where they're going -- cost more.

WIAN: Athos I was built in Japan, Greek-owned and registered in Cyprus. Selendang Ayu was Chinese built, owned in Singapore and sailed under the Malaysian flag. While the United States is a major ocean-bound cargo destination, it has given up control of the shipping business to often subsidized foreign companies. U.S. firms control just 5 percent of global shipping capacity.

JOSEPH BONNEY, EDITOR, JOURNAL OF COMMERCE: U.S. flagships and international service have higher labor costs than their foreign competitors, and U.S. tax policy has been a disincentive.

WIAN: President Bush signed a bill giving tax breaks to U.S. shippers this fall. Still, ships from 86 nations made 61,000 port calls here last year. The U.S. Coast Guard conducted 12,000 inspections of those ships. It says safety-related detentions are down 70 percent during the past decade.

(on camera): While the Coast Guard says increased inspections have improved safety performance, the system is far from foolproof. The Selendang Ayu was inspected on November 24, just two weeks before it broke apart in the Bering Sea.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: French President Jacques Chirac today dedicated what he calls a symbol of a modern forward-looking France. It is a new bridge, a bridge that stretches for a mile and a half over the Tarn River Valley in southern France.

The bridge rises more than 1,100 feet. It is built as the world's tallest. It's taller than the Eiffel Tower, in fact. Chirac said it's an emblem of French civil engineering.

Apparently, he didn't know or perhaps forgot that the bridge was designed by a British architect.

Still ahead here tonight, "Red Star Rising." The most populous nation on earth is challenging the United States for global economic and perhaps political leadership. Our special report is next.

And then, the invasion of illegal aliens into this country, the impact on our society, our culture. I'll be joined by award-winning filmmakers of an important documentary on this very subject, "Farmingville." All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

The U.S. trade deficit skyrocketed to a record $55-1/2 billion in October as record imports from China surged into this country. Our massive trade deficit with China is only the latest sign of Beijing's emerging preeminence and the relationship between the United States and China both economically and perhaps politically. Critics say China is doing everything possible to replace the United States as the world's preeminent power.

Senior Asia Correspondent Mike Chinoy reports from Beijing in our special report, "Red Star Rising."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SENIOR ASIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twenty years ago, this was farmland. Now the new skyline of Shanghai symbolizes China's breathtaking emergence as a global superpower. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think of China's increasing power is already reshaping the power structure of the world.

CHINOY: China today has surpassed the U.S. as the world's largest recipient of foreign investment. It has over $500 billion in foreign currency reserves, including huge holdings in U.S. Treasury bonds, which gives Beijing a formidable economic weapon if Sino- American ties should sour.

Chinese leaders are constantly traveling the globe dispensing contracts, winning friends, but, in the U.S., China's emergence has barely been noticed.

DAN BLUMENTHAL, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Because of the focus on the war on terrorism and the situation in Iraq and in Afghanistan, it's really not accounting for the new strategic realities, the rise of Chinese power.

CHINOY: The boom has made China into the world's second largest consumer of oil. It's led Beijing to cut deals with American adversaries like Iran and undermine U.S. efforts to sanction Tehran for its nuclear program. And Beijing has pursued a huge military buildup, aimed at projecting power beyond its borders and challenging U.S. dominance in Asia.

(on camera): Two centuries ago, Napoleon wrote, "If China wakes, she will shake the world." Well, the tremors are rippling across the globe now, reshaping the international landscape and presenting a daunting new set of challenges for American foreign policy.

Mike Chinoy, CNN, Beijing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And in a further sign of China's rising military power, Beijing and Moscow have announced their first joint military exercises. Those war games will be held in China next year. The military exercises just another indication of the growing military ties between China and Russia. Beijing is now Russia's biggest customer for military equipment.

Still ahead, your right to know is under assault. With a dozen reporters across the country now facing prosecution for refusing to reveal their confidential sources. I'll be talking about that issue with a public editor at The New York Times, Daniel Okrent.

And just a drop in the bucket? Why immigration officials can't keep up with the staggering number of illegal aliens invading this country.

Also, award-winning filmmakers Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini. They will be my guest. We'll be talking about illegal immigration, the focus of their critically acclaimed documentary, "Farmingville," next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: In just a moment, your right to know under attack. I'll be talking with Daniel Okrent, who is the public editor for The New York Times, but, first, let's take a look at some of the top news stories tonight.

The fifth interest rate hike of the year today. The Federal Reserve increasing rates by a quarter percentage point to 2.25 percent. That move leaves the key Fed funds rate at its highest level since October of 2001.

A worldwide education study tonight showing disappointing results for America's youth. Fourth graders are slipping behind in mathematics and science, compared to students internationally. Eighth graders, however, are improving. The study shows several countries, particularly in Asia, outperforming American students in both science and math.

And a new report suggests we'll see a massive building boom in this country over the next quarter century. The Brookings Institution says by 2030, we'll need twice the number of homes, office buildings, stores and factories that exist today. By 2030, the U.S. population is expected to grow 33 percent.

Tonight, this nation's freedom of press. Your right to know under attack. A dozen reporters across the country are now under prosecution for their failure to reveal confidential sources to authorities. They include "Time" magazine's Matthew Cooper, "The New York Times'" Judith Miller, both of whom face jail.

I'm joined now by the public editor of "The New York Times," Daniel Okrent. Good to have you with us.

DANIEL OKRENT, PUBLIC EDITOR, NEW YORK TIMES: Hello. How are you?

DOBBS: Is this, in your judgment, purely coincidental that so many reporters suddenly are facing the prospect of jail?

OKRENT: No, I don't think it's a coincidence. I mean, I don't think that there's a conspiracy afoot, but I think that is certainly possible that one prosecutor sees it happening elsewhere and is finding support in the court system, and that would remind another prosecutor that there is a possibility of pushing this issue.

DOBBS: In pushing this issue, in the case of Judith Miller at "The New York Times," she didn't even publish.

OKRENT: Yeah, it is really the stunning thing to me, that she was not -- she never wrote anything. Matt Cooper, who I also think is being unfairly treated, at least he had written an article in which he had acknowledged that he had been approached by the person who leaked this information about Valerie Plame. Miller never did. So it really becomes very scary. You wonder, why her? Why not me? Why not you? And I've heard a number of speculative reasons. But what I fear is simply maybe an effort to get phone records that she has. I don't know. DOBBS: And as I occasionally do, I forgot to put it in context, precisely what we are talking about when we are talking about Valerie Plame, that is in the case of Ambassador Wilson, Robert Novak, who's also a colleague on this network, in his column, naming her after her name was revealed to him by two administration sources, and that brought about the special prosecutor's -- special prosecutor's investigation.

In that context, there would seem to be some considerable support for that investigation, because -- in the popular media -- because it was, at least implicitly inferred that they'd be going after the Bush administration. It turns out, the first victims are the national press themselves.

OKRENT: Absolutely. And, in fact, if a crime was committed -- and there's a real question of whether there was a crime -- the statute that governs the release of names of CIA agents is very complex. It is not as simple as it may appear. If there was a crime committed, it was by somebody in the Bush administration, not by the reporter. There's no inference involved in this at all that the reporters broke the law on receiving, or in the case of Novak who published it, publishing the information.

DOBBS: And we should also point out, within this context, Bob Novak, it's very unclear what his statements or (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

OKRENT: I have to presume that he's already testified, because there would be no other explanation for why he's also not being found in contempt. He hasn't commented to anybody. And this is strictly speculative on my part, but that would seem to be the case.

DOBBS: Many of the people watching tonight, listening to you and to me, are thinking, this is inside baseball. What do we care? Why should it matter to us? If a few overpaid, elitist correspondents...

OKRENT: I'm not. You're overpaid.

DOBBS: Well, fairly compensated. But in talking about these folks facing jail...

OKRENT: Yeah, yeah.

DOBBS: They're saying, why the heck should I worry?

OKRENT: You know, I think that any reader or television viewer who's ever heard or read a story in which official corruption was revealed, and you said, you know, I'm glad they got those guys, the way those guys were gotten were usually because of a leak to a reporter. That if the ability of people, of whistle-blowers to leak to reporters is taken away, then the kind of journalism that serves the public interest absolutely dissipates.

DOBBS: How did we in the craft get to this point that we don't have adequate number of states -- we do have a number of states that have shield laws, but we don't a federal shield law.

OKRENT: We don't have a federal law.

DOBBS: The news organizations, the media companies themselves have not pressed this. For example, "The New York Times" is facing this situation with a number of its correspondents.

OKRENT: Yeah, and other places as well. And there really is no explanation for it. There are 31 states with pretty good shield laws, and there are several more who have reasonable shield laws. The fact that there is no federal law, given the existing court decision, I think, is, you know, a lack of attention that the media, not only the media producers, but media consumers have not paid attention until the crisis arises.

DOBBS: Well, let's hope that this crisis has resolution or reason preceding that resolution.

OKRENT: I hope so.

DOBBS: Dan Okrent, thank you very much. Good to see you.

OKRENT: Nice to see you.

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question of the evening, how do you rate Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's performance? Excellent? Good or poor? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

When we continue, millions of illegal aliens invading this country this year. They're having a tremendous impact on our society, our culture. Next, I'll be talking with two filmmakers who documented this invasion in the award-winning film "Farmingville," a remarkable documentary showing the struggle of both illegal aliens and the communities in which they work and seek to live.

And then, Major League Baseball weighs a punishment for two of the best paid sluggers who cheated. Baseball announcer, famed sportscaster Charley Steiner joins me next. All of that, a great deal more, still ahead here tonight. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, we continue our look at the immigration crisis in this country. Immigration, customs enforcement officials bragging about the breakup of an illegal alien smuggling ring this weekend. That investigation took nine months. Sixteen people were charged with smuggling. And that ring allowed only 35 illegal aliens into this country. An estimated three million illegal aliens will cross our borders this year. Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixteen people arrested in Miami and New York, charged with smuggling illegal aliens into America using fraudulent documents.

JOHN WOODS, IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Typically, what happens is these social organizations obtain fraudulent documents and put these individuals on planes to the United States. What we did in an undercover capacity was provide -- be the source for these documents and be able to identify the smugglers.

TUCKER: If Immigration and Customs wanted to round up the estimated three million illegal aliens who enter this country every year, they'd have to conduct roughly 97,000 operations similar to the one it conducted this past weekend. It would also have to arrest the illegal aliens. They didn't this time.

The illegal immigrants were allowed into the country, and, in essence, put on parole, because they were used in an undercover operation.

Now, there is no way of knowing how many illegal aliens the 16 arrested this weekend have allegedly smuggled into the United States. But...

MIKE CUTLER, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: If this is the best that we can tout as a success in our efforts to secure our borders, what does it tell you about the effectiveness of our efforts to secure our borders? It's virtually nonexistent.

TUCKER (on camera): And then there's this way to look at it. New York City has 38,000 cops to protect it. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has fewer than 3,000 agents for the entire country.

Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: To discuss illegal immigration in this country, its impact on our society, I'm joined by two wonderful filmmakers who certainly know a great deal about this subject, given all of the effort and talent and energy they put into creating their documentary. They were with us nearly a year ago. Their critically acclaimed documentary is "Farmingville." It's won the special jury prize for a documentary at the Sundance Film Festival. The film examines the invasion of more than 1,000 illegal aliens in one small town and its devastating impact on the community. Their documentary has been nominated for an Independent Spirit Award, the Oscars of the independent documentary world. And joining me now are Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini. They produced and directed the film.

It is great to be talking with you both again. Congratulations. I wish you all the best of luck on the Spirit Award.

CARLOS SANDOVAL, DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER, "FARMINGVILLE": Thank you, Lou.

CATHERINE TAMBINI, DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER, "FARMINGVILLE": Thank you.

DOBBS: We have been reporting, as you know, throughout on this issue of illegal immigration, and in point of fact have gone back to "Farmingville." The problem is, the problem persists. There's still no public policy solutions, there are no cultural or social solutions. What's the answer?

TAMBINI: Well, we need to start at the top. We need to start with the federal government. We need to figure out a way to integrate people into our society in a better way than we have in the past.

DOBBS: Carlos, your documentary brings together all of the forces at work, from those who live in the community who are legal citizens or residents, and, for the most part, the young men who are coming to that community seeking a better life, trying to support families, often in their homes, whether in Mexico or in South America. This collision has to be resolved, it seems to me, through federal policy. The idea that -- pro-immigrant groups cannot deal with the idea of tightened border security, which, in my judgment, is critical in this period of a global war on terror, and we need to take control of the flow of immigration. How do we accomplish all of those objectives comprehensively?

SANDOVAL: Well, I think the only way we really can address them comprehensively is, as Catherine said, at the federal level.

What we see in "Farmingville" is really what happens at the local level, where the rubber hits the road, where we have the fallout of our ineptitude of our federal policy.

DOBBS: And we have so many special interest groups, whether it's the AFL-CIO and other labor organizations, seeking cheap labor, to represent them, to enlarge a dwindling national membership, or big business and middle business as well and small business, seeking to hire, if not outright exploit, illegal immigrant labor. Why is it that we can't come to a political consensus on this -- forget consensus. We can't even come to an honest political debate on this issue. Why is that, Catherine?

TAMBINI: I think that it's just such a charged issue. There are so many places that need immigrant labor in order to...

DOBBS: Absolutely.

TAMBINI: ... further their way of life. I was in Bend, Oregon not too long ago, and just up the road from there, there is a community there that's surviving only because they have immigrant labor there. It's like that in a number of places around the country.

So we need to be able to allow the people who can fill those jobs to come in and fill those jobs, and we need to have some sort of control over who's coming into our country. We need to know who's here.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And as we look at the -- this is a mounting crisis, because I think when the last time the three of us were talking, we said that three million illegal aliens will enter this country this year. We would have discounted it. Just about double, the highest projection that I had seen a year ago. But now, as President Bush is talking about a guest worker program, a number of proposals in Congress for outright amnesty. What is the solution? Guest worker? Amnesty? Because I'll tell you, the popular opinion, and I think you both know this, is overwhelmingly against amnesty and a lack of border security. What do you think?

SANDOVAL: Well, the real solution has to be a holistic solution. You asked why is this problem still around? The problem is intransigent. the problem has been around really since the turn of the century, really since the United States established its border with Mexico. That border was porous. Historically, it didn't exist. People went back and forth. I grew up in the Southwest. This has been around. And it continues to be around. And it's because...

DOBBS: But certainly nothing near this scope.

SANDOVAL: No, not near this scope, and not as dispersed as it is now. And I think that that reflects -- but I think that we -- that it's because of the continued need or dependency, if you will, on this, on this immigrant flow. As Catherine pointed out, there are many communities that really do need this source of labor.

So I think you have to look at the holistic solution. You have to regulate this rather than -- and I think it's really about regulation.

DOBBS: How difficult would it be for -- and I'm going to ask you to speak for both of you, because we're just about out of time, Catherine. How difficult would it be for you, just hypothetically, to start on trying to reform immigration, to deal with this immigration crisis, to be, again, as a condition precedent, border security?

TAMBINI: Well, to me, border security is not really the issue. The stronger that we make our...

DOBBS: I was afraid you were going to say that.

TAMBINI: Well, the stronger we make our borders, the more the immigrants -- there used to be more of a flow back and forth. The stronger we make our borders, the more the immigrants who sneak across come in and tend to stay here rather than going back as they did before.

So I don't think that border security is necessarily the issue. I think that we need to start with our federal immigration policy, and really begin there, and begin to look at how we can integrate into society the people who are there.

DOBBS: Catherine, thank you very much. Catherine Tambini, Carlos Sandoval. We thank you both. Great filmmakers. We're going to continue the dialogue. The country perhaps will take on an honest debate as we begin the new Congress. We'll have to see. For all our sakes, we hope so.

TAMBINI: Hopefully.

DOBBS: Carlos, Catherine, thank you very much.

TAMBINI: Thank you.

DOBBS: Thank you, and good luck. TAMBINI: Thank you.

DOBBS: Tonight, Mexico says it will soon export one Christmas tradition that it shun for years, the Christmas tree. Mexicans traditionally mark the holiday with nativity scenes and presents on King's Day in January. But Christmas trees imported from the United States have become popular over the past few decades. And many Mexicans criticizing that trend at first, even suggesting that Christmas trees are bad for the environment.

But now Mexico's government has given up trying to stop the trend and is even offering now to help Mexican farmers who want to grow Christmas trees for export to the United States, of course. Mexico says it will begin exporting those trees within five years. So stand by.

Some tree sellers say the Mexican trees will need a lot of work. Before then, they say the Mexican trees are dry and sparse compared to Christmas trees grown in the United States.

I seem to remember something similar being said about Japanese automobiles about 30 years ago.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts on the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country. Sherri in Ashland, Ohio wrote to say, "I am so frustrated with the illegal alien issues. What part of "illegal" are we not getting? It seems we've become a country of the free for everybody except Americans."

Audrey Doty of Hadley, Massachusetts, "I'm amazed at the illegal aliens' access to services in the United States. I had a problem with my new wireless phone contract when I was given a rebate in Spanish. Imagine being an American and wanting forms in English."

And John Neibich of Yarnell, Arizona. "Why don't these politicians just enforce the labor laws against hiring illegals? If employers began to get fined, have workers arrested, job sites shut down, and work not getting done on time, then they will stop hiring illegals, right? But that would put the responsibility on business, and no politician would do that."

We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.

Still ahead, steroid abuse rocks Major League Baseball. Can the integrity of America's pastime be restored? Will culprits be punished? We'll find out. I'll be talking with sports commentator Charley Steiner next. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Major League Baseball facing one of the biggest scandals in its history after two of the league's top sluggers admitted using steroids. The Players Association in Major League Baseball today entering negotiations to adopt a tougher steroid policy. I'm joined by one of baseball's best known commentators, one of my favorite sportscasters, Charlie Steiner. He recently became announcer for the Los Angeles Dodgers, before that, announcer for the New York Yankees, for ESPN, of course. Charley, good to have you with us.

This is turning out to be something I didn't personally think would ever occur. Serious dialogue between the Players Association and Major League Baseball over a drug policy?

CHARLEY STEINER, LOS ANGELES DODGERS ANNOUNCER: They have to. They have no choice in the matter. Baseball's had this enormous renaissance over the past couple of years, and then this. It had been an unspoken secret -- everybody knew that there was some degree of steroids in baseball. It was only going to be a matter of time before it became known. And once it did, certainly there was fan reaction. And most importantly, there was player reaction. The players -- most players don't do steroids. Most players are victims of the cheaters who do do steroids. And the rank and file essentially went to the union and said, look, we've got to clean our act up, and we want to play on a straight playing field.

DOBBS: We have seen this, though, from the Players Union before. And I have great respect for Don Fehr, a terrific executive of the Players Union. He's done wonderful things. But on the drug policy, whether it's steroids, whether it's other drugs, the Players Association really ought to be ashamed of itself, don't you think?

STEINER: Can't argue. And clearly, the reaction now from the fan base, the paying customers, and most importantly, again, the rank and file, they had to do something. And then with Senator McCain, threatening legal -- or at least federal action, this sort of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was hanging perilously over the Players Union's neck.

DOBBS: And Senator Dorgan has joined him. And the fact is I don't think either one are kidding around about this. I think they've had a bellyful in Washington.

STEINER: Well, it's a can't-lose situation for the politicians. If you pardon the expression, it's a home run for them. The fans, on the other hand, they're -- the reasonable expectation to know that their heroes are clean. When you go into the supermarket and you buy a gallon of milk, you want it to be a gallon of milk, not a half gallon. There's an element of truth in advertising.

DOBBS: Well, truth in advertising, while we are on that, and you said it was, you know, unspoken, but an obvious truth that some players were on steroids over the years. One does not have to look at Barry Bonds and the change in his appearance over the course of time not to feel that he's gone through a rather rigorous and unusual body building process. But the advertisers didn't say anything about it. The people who buy the seats, the corporations didn't say anything about it. And I'm picking on Barry Bonds because he's the best known of all of them. And the one who has a record hanging right there in front of the book. Should that record have an asterisk? Should it be expunged?

STEINER: Well, at this point, I don't think so because everybody knows. Everybody can make their own judgment as to what Barry Bonds was able to do with or without clear, the cream, all of these other things that we've only come to hear of recently. My feeling is that we will look back on baseball 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now, for a period from about 1994 to 2004, a lot of questions about records will be raised. But we can't specify any one player, necessarily. But I think somewhere down the road, there was a ten-year period in baseball where numbers just went off the charts for reasons that, I guess, we can all draw our own conclusions.

DOBBS: Very quickly, Mark McGwire, an anomalous season, raising all sorts of questions about his performance. And at the end of this, if nothing is done, raising the continuing question about accountability for the high-paid professional athletes in this country, the role of sponsors and corporations buying those seats. You think we're going to see a significant change? For example, baseball adopt the Minor League policy?

STEINER: Baseball has to. They have no choice. And it's not Major League Baseball, it's the major league Players Association that has to come across. And I suspect that they will. There's just too much pressure from too many corners for it not to happen.

DOBBS: Perhaps we might, for the first time, see collusion between the baseball owners and the Players Union.

STEINER: Collusion's supposed to be a bad word.

DOBBS: Just if one side does it, I think. It would be nice to see it between them. Thank you very much. Charley Steiner. And good luck, L.A.

STEINER: Thank you.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll. 94 percent of you rank Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's performance as poor. Thank you for joining us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. I'll be talking with former U.S. ambassador to China James Lilly. We'll be talking about China's expanding world, economic, political and military power. And in our faceoff, a debate on whether local law enforcement officials should have the authority to arrest and deport illegal aliens.

For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired December 14, 2004 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, defending Rumsfeld. The White House closes ranks around Rumsfeld in the face of rising criticism about his performance.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Secretary Rumsfeld has been doing a tremendous job during some very challenging times.

DOBBS: Journalists fighting to protect confidential sources to defend your right to know. Why the assault on the freedom to report? "New York Times" public editor Daniel Okrent is my guest.

A federal agency is bragging about a nine-month long investigation that broke up a human smuggling ring that allowed only 35 illegal aliens into the country. We'll examine whether that's really something to brag about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What does it tell you about the effectiveness of our efforts to secure our borders?

DOBBS: And "Farmingville," a remarkable documentary about the impact of illegal aliens on this country and our society. It's been nominated for a top film award. I'll be talking with the documentary's director and producer, Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Tuesday, December 14. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.

DOBBS: Good evening.

The White House today strongly defended Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld from rising criticism of his leadership. White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Rumsfeld is doing a tremendous job.

President Bush today honored former CIA director George Tenet and two other officials responsible for U.S. policy in Iraq. He awarded them the Medal of Freedom.

Senior White House correspondent John King reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three familiar faces on hand in the East Room, the president himself defining the day's honor.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The Presidential Medal of Freedom is our nation's highest civil award given to men and women of exceptional merit, integrity and achievement.

KING: Medals for former CIA director George Tenet, retired General Tommy Franks, and former Iraq civilian administrator Paul "Jerry" Bremer, three critical players in the Iraq war and its aftermath.

BUSH: My colleague once said that George has the intellect of a scholar and the demeanor of a longshoreman. His tireless efforts have brought justice to America's enemies and greater security to the American people.

One of the highest distinctions of history is to be called a liberator. And Tommy Franks will always carry that title.

Every political benchmark that the Iraqis set for themselves and that Jerry helped them meet was achieved on time or ahead of schedule, including the transfer of sovereignty that ended his tenure.

KING: To Bush critics unwarranted praise for men with leading roles in what they consider significant failures.

It was Tenet who told Bush there was no doubt Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

General Franks led the troops to swift militaries in Afghanistan and Iraq, but some Democrats believe he should have been less loyal to Mr. Bush and pushed for a bigger force to hunt Osama bin Laden and for more troops to help secure Iraq.

Ambassador Bremer did push for more troops but was overruled by the president. And even most Democrats give him high praise for trying to manage Iraq's difficult post-war transition.

But some see one big Bremer mistake: completely disbanding Iraq's army, leaving the country ill-prepared to deal with the violent post- war insurgency.

The day also included strong White House support for another key player in its Iraq policy, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Republican Senator John McCain says he has no confident in Rumsfeld because, in his view, the Pentagon long ago should have sent more troops to Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: But the president's spokesman saying today that Mr. Bush believes Secretary Rumsfeld is doing a tremendous job at a very difficult time and that the president is very pleased he's agreed to stay on into the second term -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, the fact that a distinguished senator such as Senator John McCain, a distinguished general, Norman Schwarzkopf, criticism of that sort is not partisan. It is -- it has got to be hitting the White House hard. What is the reaction there?

KING: Well, the White House says the president has full confidence in Secretary Rumsfeld. But officials here also say this criticism is a reminder to them that the election is over, but that there are still profound questions about the administration's Iraq policy. Most of the criticism from Democrats, but not all of it.

As you know, Senator McCain and General Schwarzkopf serving in Republican administrations or being a Republican in the case of Senator McCain. So as the Iraqi elections approach as the president asks for billions more to fund the operation into next year, this White House is bracing for a lot of questions and a lot more criticism -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you, John.

The military today said two Marines have been killed in combat in Iraq. Overnight the Marine Corps said the troops were killed in Al Anbar province west of Baghdad. Thirteen hundred and three American troops have now been killed in Iraq.

In Baghdad, insurgents today exploded a car bomb near the heavily guarded Green Zone. This, the second bomb attack near the Green Zone, or within it, in the past two days.

Two people were killed, 15 others wounded, no Americans among those casualties.

Meanwhile, Poland says it will reduce the strength of its military contingent in Iraq by a third in February. The number of troops will be cut from 2,500 to 1,700.

The U.S. military is using new tactics in Iraq, trying to cut the number of insurgent attacks on supply convoys. The U.S. Air Force is using an increasing number of C-130 aircraft to airlift supplies. And our soldiers and Marines are employing new countermeasures against those deadly roadside bombs.

Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Another roadside bomb detonates, a typical attack that has killed or wounded hundreds of American troops. The insurgent's camera keeps rolling as U.S. soldiers help those wounded in the Humvee.

CNN asked military expert James Carafano to look at the video to see what can be learned.

JAMES CARAFANO, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's good for the Americans to know that there could be somebody watching them when they do these things, and that it's good for the Americans to look at this to see how they respond to it and looking for things the bad guys might see in the way they respond to it.

STARR: U.S. troops are stepping up countermeasures. Every attack is analyzed; convoy routes are changed often. There is more reconnaissance.

Military officials emphasize that armor alone, the subject of so much controversy, is not the total solution against improvised explosive devices.

BRIG. GEN. DAVID RODRIGUEZ, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: You're looking at every place by how the thing was put together, how it was detonated, what type of material was used in it, what type of technology, because people design things differently.

STARR: New intelligence indicates explosives set off to the side of the road are proving very deadly. Part of the longer-term solution? New armored vehicles are being tested on the streets of Iraq that can better survive attacks, including a new version of the armored Humvee with a mounted laser that can destroy explosives up to 250 meters away.

New armored security vehicles are with U.S. military police units. They can survive 12-pound blasts under each wheel. Many convoys now carry jammers designed to keep remotely-detonated devices from exploding, but some convoys still travel dangerous roads without these high-tech packages.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: And Lou, as you say, the Air Force has stepped in. In the last month, cargo flights into Iraq have increased by 30 percent. The Air Force estimates that's keeping another 400 vehicles and 1,000 military personnel off those dangerous roads in Iraq -- Lou.

DOBBS: That's certainly good news, Barbara, but it is also, is it not, a tacit admission that the U.S. military and the Iraqi forces cannot main security -- maintain security on those roads?

STARR: Lou, this is a constant problem. The issue is basically that the insurgents, of course, can move in quickly, lay those explosive devices, run away, detonate them at a standoff range, and the U.S. may not be able to detect them in time.

That's why they're going for this multi-layered solution, if you will: more armor, more technology, more reconnaissance. But there is no question, this is a problem, they say, will be very, very difficult to solve.

DOBBS: Barbara, thank you very much. Barbara Starr reporting from the Pentagon.

Turning now to homeland security, there's a shocking indictment tonight of the readiness of states to respond to a bioterrorist attack. Only six states have the capability to quickly distribute vaccines and antidotes in an emergency, according to a new study released today.

Our national correspondent, Bob Franken, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly every locale suffers from what the report calls serious vulnerability to bioterrorism. The authors say the entire country is flirting with catastrophe.

DR. SHELLEY HEARNE, TRUST FOR AMERICA'S HEALTH: There are some big gaps out there. We need to take this seriously and get the job done.

FRANKEN: Among the worst off, Washington, D.C., which has already struggled with anthrax and ricin attacks and works to improve amidst the intense security of the upcoming inauguration.

DR. GREGG PANE, DIRECTOR, D.C. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH: I didn't need the report to heighten my sensitivity to the importance of this issue, nor the planning of the inaugural.

FRANKEN: The best prepared states: Florida and North Carolina. Close behind, Minnesota, Nebraska, New Hampshire and Virginia.

The scores plunge downward through a total of seven levels of readiness. Near the bottom, in addition to D.C., Indiana, Pennsylvania and Wyoming. Alaska and Massachusetts are identified as the worst prepared.

The report cites the chaos that followed the flu vaccine shortage as an example of how unprepared the nation is. Even with drills like the one recently in Los Angeles with its massive seaport at nearby Long Beach, the problems remain.

MAYOR JAMES HAHN, LOS ANGELES: Seaports asked for three times the amount of money that the Congress appropriated for port security. Congress needs to see the threat coming into our seaports.

FRANKEN: The new report blames an overall decline in federal funding and frequent misuse of money at the state and local levels.

Just a week ago, the outgoing Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson warned about the food supply.

TOMMY THOMPSON, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES: We need better technology. We need more inspectors.

FRANKEN: Federal officials insist there has already been a huge increase in spending.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Still, the report's authors describe bioterrorism as the weakest link in Homeland Security, which could cost hundreds of thousands of lives -- Lou.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

Bob Franken reporting from Washington.

Cuba has begun its biggest military exercises in two decades. That's because Fidel Castro's government is telling the Cuban people that the war games are intended to deter what could be an imminent U.S. invasion of the island.

But, in point of fact, those exercises are designed to distract the Cuban people from their own deep, chronic economic problems.

Lucia Newman reports from Havana.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's called Bastion 2004, the war games Cuba's communist government want heard all the way in Washington.

Defense Minister Raul Castro, the president's brother, boasts Cuba will turn into a hornet's nest for the Americans, if they invade.

"Let the Americans take a good look so they won't make the same mistakes they made in Vietnam and now in Iraq," he says.

Castro says the week-long military exercise is the most important since the Bay of Pigs invasion, mobilizing about 100,000 soldiers and millions of civilians. The Soviet-era equipment is as outdated at its place of origin.

(on camera): Trenches like this one were built all along Cuba's coast during the height of the Cold War and have been largely abandoned and forgotten, except for the occasional lovers that come here when they need a place to be alone.

But, during this week's military exercises, these trenches will again be put back in action as a way of telling the Cuban people that the threat from the United States today is as great as ever.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Cuban people deserve...

NEWMAN (voice-over): The White House calls the idea a red herring.

BOUCHER: Second of all, exercises are just I'd say one or more of the many things the Cuban government does to try to distract people from the problems that they face in their daily lives.

NEWSMAN: True, many Cubans are suspicious of their government's motives, but faced with a White House that's already invaded Iraq, some here believe anything is possible.

Lucia Newman, CNN, Havana. DOBBS: Turning now to our poll. And tonight, we focus on this country's secretary of defense. The question: How do you rate Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's performance -- excellent, good or poor? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

Still ahead here, "Red Star Rising." Will China replace the United States as the world's strongest military and economic superpower? We'll have a special report next from China.

And Wal-Mart exposed. A Wal-Mart hurts America by exploding its supremacy in retailing. Those are the charges of a number of labor organizations. We'll have the report.

And your right to know. Traditional media organizations under siege. Reporters facing new legal challenges, some facing jail. Tonight, I'll be talking with New York Times public editor Daniel Okrent.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, the AFL-CIO is planning to launch a major new campaign against the world's most successful, largest retailer. The labor organization says it wants to educate Americans about how Wal- Mart keeps its prices low and at whose expense.

Christine Romans reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Labor unions say if consumers knew the real cost of Wal-Mart's low prices, they wouldn't shop there. They say Wal-Mart lowers the standard of living in the communities in which it operates.

It kills higher-paid supermarket jobs and puts small retailers out of business. In their wake, Wal-Mart employees, on average, earn $9.64 an hour; a year's pay, barely above $20,000. That's less than half the national average.

RON BLACKWELL, AFL-CIO: What we're after here is to try to raise the standards in Wal-Mart stores and in the factories that produce the goods that are sold in Wal-Mart. It's the country's largest employer, but it's also come to symbolize the low road path to competitive success.

ROMANS: Wal-Mart defends its low prices and says it does not cut costs through wages and benefits, but through driving down costs. In a statement, Wal-Mart says the "union seems to miss that Wal-Mart's ability to offer the lowest prices around is driven by a passion to drive cost out of our business at all levels."

Critics say that passion has cost millions of American jobs. Wal-Mart demands the lowest possible price on everything it sells. The only way U.S. manufacturers could meet those demands would be to ignore child labor laws and environmental protection, and, even then, it would be impossible. The result: Wal-Mart is China's third largest export market.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: Lou, the unions hope consumers will send Wal-Mart a message with their wallets, but they concede there are many Americans who just can't afford to shop anywhere else.

DOBBS: The Wal-Mart cycle some have referred to it as and I think in some context, in worrying about wages here. We should point out the AFL-CIO is absolutely supportive of open borders and low- priced immigrant illegal as well as legal labor, and that also has a depressive effect on prices. So this is not a simple problem, nor an isolated single-issue matter.

Christine Romans.

Thank you.

Tonight, two alarming incidents in our nation's waterways are raising concerns about our national security and our dependency upon foreign-owned shipping. Two of those foreign ships dumped more than half a million gallons of oil and fuel into American waters.

Casey Wian has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Halves of the giant freighter Selendang Ayu remain stranded off the Alaskan coast after last week's deadly series of events. The ship lost power in high seas and drifted aground. Six crew members died when a rescue helicopter crashed. Forty-one thousand gallons of fuel spilled into Alaskan waters.

Just two weeks earlier, a bigger spill on the Delaware River; 473,000 gallons of crude oil leaked after a wayward chunk of cast iron leaked ripped through the hull of the Athos I.

Shipping accidents are actually down by more than a third during the past decade, and the industry is switching to double-hulled tankers to prevent massive spills, but too slowly for some.

SEN. FRANK LAUTENBERG (D), NEW JERSEY: We haven't seen the industry do anything to accelerate the process. I think it's to save money. The larger ships that are going to be built with double hulls -- and that's where they're going -- cost more.

WIAN: Athos I was built in Japan, Greek-owned and registered in Cyprus. Selendang Ayu was Chinese built, owned in Singapore and sailed under the Malaysian flag. While the United States is a major ocean-bound cargo destination, it has given up control of the shipping business to often subsidized foreign companies. U.S. firms control just 5 percent of global shipping capacity.

JOSEPH BONNEY, EDITOR, JOURNAL OF COMMERCE: U.S. flagships and international service have higher labor costs than their foreign competitors, and U.S. tax policy has been a disincentive.

WIAN: President Bush signed a bill giving tax breaks to U.S. shippers this fall. Still, ships from 86 nations made 61,000 port calls here last year. The U.S. Coast Guard conducted 12,000 inspections of those ships. It says safety-related detentions are down 70 percent during the past decade.

(on camera): While the Coast Guard says increased inspections have improved safety performance, the system is far from foolproof. The Selendang Ayu was inspected on November 24, just two weeks before it broke apart in the Bering Sea.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: French President Jacques Chirac today dedicated what he calls a symbol of a modern forward-looking France. It is a new bridge, a bridge that stretches for a mile and a half over the Tarn River Valley in southern France.

The bridge rises more than 1,100 feet. It is built as the world's tallest. It's taller than the Eiffel Tower, in fact. Chirac said it's an emblem of French civil engineering.

Apparently, he didn't know or perhaps forgot that the bridge was designed by a British architect.

Still ahead here tonight, "Red Star Rising." The most populous nation on earth is challenging the United States for global economic and perhaps political leadership. Our special report is next.

And then, the invasion of illegal aliens into this country, the impact on our society, our culture. I'll be joined by award-winning filmmakers of an important documentary on this very subject, "Farmingville." All of that and a great deal more still ahead here tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

The U.S. trade deficit skyrocketed to a record $55-1/2 billion in October as record imports from China surged into this country. Our massive trade deficit with China is only the latest sign of Beijing's emerging preeminence and the relationship between the United States and China both economically and perhaps politically. Critics say China is doing everything possible to replace the United States as the world's preeminent power.

Senior Asia Correspondent Mike Chinoy reports from Beijing in our special report, "Red Star Rising."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SENIOR ASIA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twenty years ago, this was farmland. Now the new skyline of Shanghai symbolizes China's breathtaking emergence as a global superpower. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think of China's increasing power is already reshaping the power structure of the world.

CHINOY: China today has surpassed the U.S. as the world's largest recipient of foreign investment. It has over $500 billion in foreign currency reserves, including huge holdings in U.S. Treasury bonds, which gives Beijing a formidable economic weapon if Sino- American ties should sour.

Chinese leaders are constantly traveling the globe dispensing contracts, winning friends, but, in the U.S., China's emergence has barely been noticed.

DAN BLUMENTHAL, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Because of the focus on the war on terrorism and the situation in Iraq and in Afghanistan, it's really not accounting for the new strategic realities, the rise of Chinese power.

CHINOY: The boom has made China into the world's second largest consumer of oil. It's led Beijing to cut deals with American adversaries like Iran and undermine U.S. efforts to sanction Tehran for its nuclear program. And Beijing has pursued a huge military buildup, aimed at projecting power beyond its borders and challenging U.S. dominance in Asia.

(on camera): Two centuries ago, Napoleon wrote, "If China wakes, she will shake the world." Well, the tremors are rippling across the globe now, reshaping the international landscape and presenting a daunting new set of challenges for American foreign policy.

Mike Chinoy, CNN, Beijing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: And in a further sign of China's rising military power, Beijing and Moscow have announced their first joint military exercises. Those war games will be held in China next year. The military exercises just another indication of the growing military ties between China and Russia. Beijing is now Russia's biggest customer for military equipment.

Still ahead, your right to know is under assault. With a dozen reporters across the country now facing prosecution for refusing to reveal their confidential sources. I'll be talking about that issue with a public editor at The New York Times, Daniel Okrent.

And just a drop in the bucket? Why immigration officials can't keep up with the staggering number of illegal aliens invading this country.

Also, award-winning filmmakers Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini. They will be my guest. We'll be talking about illegal immigration, the focus of their critically acclaimed documentary, "Farmingville," next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: In just a moment, your right to know under attack. I'll be talking with Daniel Okrent, who is the public editor for The New York Times, but, first, let's take a look at some of the top news stories tonight.

The fifth interest rate hike of the year today. The Federal Reserve increasing rates by a quarter percentage point to 2.25 percent. That move leaves the key Fed funds rate at its highest level since October of 2001.

A worldwide education study tonight showing disappointing results for America's youth. Fourth graders are slipping behind in mathematics and science, compared to students internationally. Eighth graders, however, are improving. The study shows several countries, particularly in Asia, outperforming American students in both science and math.

And a new report suggests we'll see a massive building boom in this country over the next quarter century. The Brookings Institution says by 2030, we'll need twice the number of homes, office buildings, stores and factories that exist today. By 2030, the U.S. population is expected to grow 33 percent.

Tonight, this nation's freedom of press. Your right to know under attack. A dozen reporters across the country are now under prosecution for their failure to reveal confidential sources to authorities. They include "Time" magazine's Matthew Cooper, "The New York Times'" Judith Miller, both of whom face jail.

I'm joined now by the public editor of "The New York Times," Daniel Okrent. Good to have you with us.

DANIEL OKRENT, PUBLIC EDITOR, NEW YORK TIMES: Hello. How are you?

DOBBS: Is this, in your judgment, purely coincidental that so many reporters suddenly are facing the prospect of jail?

OKRENT: No, I don't think it's a coincidence. I mean, I don't think that there's a conspiracy afoot, but I think that is certainly possible that one prosecutor sees it happening elsewhere and is finding support in the court system, and that would remind another prosecutor that there is a possibility of pushing this issue.

DOBBS: In pushing this issue, in the case of Judith Miller at "The New York Times," she didn't even publish.

OKRENT: Yeah, it is really the stunning thing to me, that she was not -- she never wrote anything. Matt Cooper, who I also think is being unfairly treated, at least he had written an article in which he had acknowledged that he had been approached by the person who leaked this information about Valerie Plame. Miller never did. So it really becomes very scary. You wonder, why her? Why not me? Why not you? And I've heard a number of speculative reasons. But what I fear is simply maybe an effort to get phone records that she has. I don't know. DOBBS: And as I occasionally do, I forgot to put it in context, precisely what we are talking about when we are talking about Valerie Plame, that is in the case of Ambassador Wilson, Robert Novak, who's also a colleague on this network, in his column, naming her after her name was revealed to him by two administration sources, and that brought about the special prosecutor's -- special prosecutor's investigation.

In that context, there would seem to be some considerable support for that investigation, because -- in the popular media -- because it was, at least implicitly inferred that they'd be going after the Bush administration. It turns out, the first victims are the national press themselves.

OKRENT: Absolutely. And, in fact, if a crime was committed -- and there's a real question of whether there was a crime -- the statute that governs the release of names of CIA agents is very complex. It is not as simple as it may appear. If there was a crime committed, it was by somebody in the Bush administration, not by the reporter. There's no inference involved in this at all that the reporters broke the law on receiving, or in the case of Novak who published it, publishing the information.

DOBBS: And we should also point out, within this context, Bob Novak, it's very unclear what his statements or (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

OKRENT: I have to presume that he's already testified, because there would be no other explanation for why he's also not being found in contempt. He hasn't commented to anybody. And this is strictly speculative on my part, but that would seem to be the case.

DOBBS: Many of the people watching tonight, listening to you and to me, are thinking, this is inside baseball. What do we care? Why should it matter to us? If a few overpaid, elitist correspondents...

OKRENT: I'm not. You're overpaid.

DOBBS: Well, fairly compensated. But in talking about these folks facing jail...

OKRENT: Yeah, yeah.

DOBBS: They're saying, why the heck should I worry?

OKRENT: You know, I think that any reader or television viewer who's ever heard or read a story in which official corruption was revealed, and you said, you know, I'm glad they got those guys, the way those guys were gotten were usually because of a leak to a reporter. That if the ability of people, of whistle-blowers to leak to reporters is taken away, then the kind of journalism that serves the public interest absolutely dissipates.

DOBBS: How did we in the craft get to this point that we don't have adequate number of states -- we do have a number of states that have shield laws, but we don't a federal shield law.

OKRENT: We don't have a federal law.

DOBBS: The news organizations, the media companies themselves have not pressed this. For example, "The New York Times" is facing this situation with a number of its correspondents.

OKRENT: Yeah, and other places as well. And there really is no explanation for it. There are 31 states with pretty good shield laws, and there are several more who have reasonable shield laws. The fact that there is no federal law, given the existing court decision, I think, is, you know, a lack of attention that the media, not only the media producers, but media consumers have not paid attention until the crisis arises.

DOBBS: Well, let's hope that this crisis has resolution or reason preceding that resolution.

OKRENT: I hope so.

DOBBS: Dan Okrent, thank you very much. Good to see you.

OKRENT: Nice to see you.

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question of the evening, how do you rate Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's performance? Excellent? Good or poor? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.

When we continue, millions of illegal aliens invading this country this year. They're having a tremendous impact on our society, our culture. Next, I'll be talking with two filmmakers who documented this invasion in the award-winning film "Farmingville," a remarkable documentary showing the struggle of both illegal aliens and the communities in which they work and seek to live.

And then, Major League Baseball weighs a punishment for two of the best paid sluggers who cheated. Baseball announcer, famed sportscaster Charley Steiner joins me next. All of that, a great deal more, still ahead here tonight. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, we continue our look at the immigration crisis in this country. Immigration, customs enforcement officials bragging about the breakup of an illegal alien smuggling ring this weekend. That investigation took nine months. Sixteen people were charged with smuggling. And that ring allowed only 35 illegal aliens into this country. An estimated three million illegal aliens will cross our borders this year. Bill Tucker reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sixteen people arrested in Miami and New York, charged with smuggling illegal aliens into America using fraudulent documents.

JOHN WOODS, IMMIGRATION & CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Typically, what happens is these social organizations obtain fraudulent documents and put these individuals on planes to the United States. What we did in an undercover capacity was provide -- be the source for these documents and be able to identify the smugglers.

TUCKER: If Immigration and Customs wanted to round up the estimated three million illegal aliens who enter this country every year, they'd have to conduct roughly 97,000 operations similar to the one it conducted this past weekend. It would also have to arrest the illegal aliens. They didn't this time.

The illegal immigrants were allowed into the country, and, in essence, put on parole, because they were used in an undercover operation.

Now, there is no way of knowing how many illegal aliens the 16 arrested this weekend have allegedly smuggled into the United States. But...

MIKE CUTLER, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: If this is the best that we can tout as a success in our efforts to secure our borders, what does it tell you about the effectiveness of our efforts to secure our borders? It's virtually nonexistent.

TUCKER (on camera): And then there's this way to look at it. New York City has 38,000 cops to protect it. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has fewer than 3,000 agents for the entire country.

Bill Tucker, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: To discuss illegal immigration in this country, its impact on our society, I'm joined by two wonderful filmmakers who certainly know a great deal about this subject, given all of the effort and talent and energy they put into creating their documentary. They were with us nearly a year ago. Their critically acclaimed documentary is "Farmingville." It's won the special jury prize for a documentary at the Sundance Film Festival. The film examines the invasion of more than 1,000 illegal aliens in one small town and its devastating impact on the community. Their documentary has been nominated for an Independent Spirit Award, the Oscars of the independent documentary world. And joining me now are Carlos Sandoval and Catherine Tambini. They produced and directed the film.

It is great to be talking with you both again. Congratulations. I wish you all the best of luck on the Spirit Award.

CARLOS SANDOVAL, DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER, "FARMINGVILLE": Thank you, Lou.

CATHERINE TAMBINI, DIRECTOR AND PRODUCER, "FARMINGVILLE": Thank you.

DOBBS: We have been reporting, as you know, throughout on this issue of illegal immigration, and in point of fact have gone back to "Farmingville." The problem is, the problem persists. There's still no public policy solutions, there are no cultural or social solutions. What's the answer?

TAMBINI: Well, we need to start at the top. We need to start with the federal government. We need to figure out a way to integrate people into our society in a better way than we have in the past.

DOBBS: Carlos, your documentary brings together all of the forces at work, from those who live in the community who are legal citizens or residents, and, for the most part, the young men who are coming to that community seeking a better life, trying to support families, often in their homes, whether in Mexico or in South America. This collision has to be resolved, it seems to me, through federal policy. The idea that -- pro-immigrant groups cannot deal with the idea of tightened border security, which, in my judgment, is critical in this period of a global war on terror, and we need to take control of the flow of immigration. How do we accomplish all of those objectives comprehensively?

SANDOVAL: Well, I think the only way we really can address them comprehensively is, as Catherine said, at the federal level.

What we see in "Farmingville" is really what happens at the local level, where the rubber hits the road, where we have the fallout of our ineptitude of our federal policy.

DOBBS: And we have so many special interest groups, whether it's the AFL-CIO and other labor organizations, seeking cheap labor, to represent them, to enlarge a dwindling national membership, or big business and middle business as well and small business, seeking to hire, if not outright exploit, illegal immigrant labor. Why is it that we can't come to a political consensus on this -- forget consensus. We can't even come to an honest political debate on this issue. Why is that, Catherine?

TAMBINI: I think that it's just such a charged issue. There are so many places that need immigrant labor in order to...

DOBBS: Absolutely.

TAMBINI: ... further their way of life. I was in Bend, Oregon not too long ago, and just up the road from there, there is a community there that's surviving only because they have immigrant labor there. It's like that in a number of places around the country.

So we need to be able to allow the people who can fill those jobs to come in and fill those jobs, and we need to have some sort of control over who's coming into our country. We need to know who's here.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And as we look at the -- this is a mounting crisis, because I think when the last time the three of us were talking, we said that three million illegal aliens will enter this country this year. We would have discounted it. Just about double, the highest projection that I had seen a year ago. But now, as President Bush is talking about a guest worker program, a number of proposals in Congress for outright amnesty. What is the solution? Guest worker? Amnesty? Because I'll tell you, the popular opinion, and I think you both know this, is overwhelmingly against amnesty and a lack of border security. What do you think?

SANDOVAL: Well, the real solution has to be a holistic solution. You asked why is this problem still around? The problem is intransigent. the problem has been around really since the turn of the century, really since the United States established its border with Mexico. That border was porous. Historically, it didn't exist. People went back and forth. I grew up in the Southwest. This has been around. And it continues to be around. And it's because...

DOBBS: But certainly nothing near this scope.

SANDOVAL: No, not near this scope, and not as dispersed as it is now. And I think that that reflects -- but I think that we -- that it's because of the continued need or dependency, if you will, on this, on this immigrant flow. As Catherine pointed out, there are many communities that really do need this source of labor.

So I think you have to look at the holistic solution. You have to regulate this rather than -- and I think it's really about regulation.

DOBBS: How difficult would it be for -- and I'm going to ask you to speak for both of you, because we're just about out of time, Catherine. How difficult would it be for you, just hypothetically, to start on trying to reform immigration, to deal with this immigration crisis, to be, again, as a condition precedent, border security?

TAMBINI: Well, to me, border security is not really the issue. The stronger that we make our...

DOBBS: I was afraid you were going to say that.

TAMBINI: Well, the stronger we make our borders, the more the immigrants -- there used to be more of a flow back and forth. The stronger we make our borders, the more the immigrants who sneak across come in and tend to stay here rather than going back as they did before.

So I don't think that border security is necessarily the issue. I think that we need to start with our federal immigration policy, and really begin there, and begin to look at how we can integrate into society the people who are there.

DOBBS: Catherine, thank you very much. Catherine Tambini, Carlos Sandoval. We thank you both. Great filmmakers. We're going to continue the dialogue. The country perhaps will take on an honest debate as we begin the new Congress. We'll have to see. For all our sakes, we hope so.

TAMBINI: Hopefully.

DOBBS: Carlos, Catherine, thank you very much.

TAMBINI: Thank you.

DOBBS: Thank you, and good luck. TAMBINI: Thank you.

DOBBS: Tonight, Mexico says it will soon export one Christmas tradition that it shun for years, the Christmas tree. Mexicans traditionally mark the holiday with nativity scenes and presents on King's Day in January. But Christmas trees imported from the United States have become popular over the past few decades. And many Mexicans criticizing that trend at first, even suggesting that Christmas trees are bad for the environment.

But now Mexico's government has given up trying to stop the trend and is even offering now to help Mexican farmers who want to grow Christmas trees for export to the United States, of course. Mexico says it will begin exporting those trees within five years. So stand by.

Some tree sellers say the Mexican trees will need a lot of work. Before then, they say the Mexican trees are dry and sparse compared to Christmas trees grown in the United States.

I seem to remember something similar being said about Japanese automobiles about 30 years ago.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts on the invasion of millions of illegal aliens into this country. Sherri in Ashland, Ohio wrote to say, "I am so frustrated with the illegal alien issues. What part of "illegal" are we not getting? It seems we've become a country of the free for everybody except Americans."

Audrey Doty of Hadley, Massachusetts, "I'm amazed at the illegal aliens' access to services in the United States. I had a problem with my new wireless phone contract when I was given a rebate in Spanish. Imagine being an American and wanting forms in English."

And John Neibich of Yarnell, Arizona. "Why don't these politicians just enforce the labor laws against hiring illegals? If employers began to get fined, have workers arrested, job sites shut down, and work not getting done on time, then they will stop hiring illegals, right? But that would put the responsibility on business, and no politician would do that."

We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@cnn.com.

Still ahead, steroid abuse rocks Major League Baseball. Can the integrity of America's pastime be restored? Will culprits be punished? We'll find out. I'll be talking with sports commentator Charley Steiner next. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Major League Baseball facing one of the biggest scandals in its history after two of the league's top sluggers admitted using steroids. The Players Association in Major League Baseball today entering negotiations to adopt a tougher steroid policy. I'm joined by one of baseball's best known commentators, one of my favorite sportscasters, Charlie Steiner. He recently became announcer for the Los Angeles Dodgers, before that, announcer for the New York Yankees, for ESPN, of course. Charley, good to have you with us.

This is turning out to be something I didn't personally think would ever occur. Serious dialogue between the Players Association and Major League Baseball over a drug policy?

CHARLEY STEINER, LOS ANGELES DODGERS ANNOUNCER: They have to. They have no choice in the matter. Baseball's had this enormous renaissance over the past couple of years, and then this. It had been an unspoken secret -- everybody knew that there was some degree of steroids in baseball. It was only going to be a matter of time before it became known. And once it did, certainly there was fan reaction. And most importantly, there was player reaction. The players -- most players don't do steroids. Most players are victims of the cheaters who do do steroids. And the rank and file essentially went to the union and said, look, we've got to clean our act up, and we want to play on a straight playing field.

DOBBS: We have seen this, though, from the Players Union before. And I have great respect for Don Fehr, a terrific executive of the Players Union. He's done wonderful things. But on the drug policy, whether it's steroids, whether it's other drugs, the Players Association really ought to be ashamed of itself, don't you think?

STEINER: Can't argue. And clearly, the reaction now from the fan base, the paying customers, and most importantly, again, the rank and file, they had to do something. And then with Senator McCain, threatening legal -- or at least federal action, this sort of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was hanging perilously over the Players Union's neck.

DOBBS: And Senator Dorgan has joined him. And the fact is I don't think either one are kidding around about this. I think they've had a bellyful in Washington.

STEINER: Well, it's a can't-lose situation for the politicians. If you pardon the expression, it's a home run for them. The fans, on the other hand, they're -- the reasonable expectation to know that their heroes are clean. When you go into the supermarket and you buy a gallon of milk, you want it to be a gallon of milk, not a half gallon. There's an element of truth in advertising.

DOBBS: Well, truth in advertising, while we are on that, and you said it was, you know, unspoken, but an obvious truth that some players were on steroids over the years. One does not have to look at Barry Bonds and the change in his appearance over the course of time not to feel that he's gone through a rather rigorous and unusual body building process. But the advertisers didn't say anything about it. The people who buy the seats, the corporations didn't say anything about it. And I'm picking on Barry Bonds because he's the best known of all of them. And the one who has a record hanging right there in front of the book. Should that record have an asterisk? Should it be expunged?

STEINER: Well, at this point, I don't think so because everybody knows. Everybody can make their own judgment as to what Barry Bonds was able to do with or without clear, the cream, all of these other things that we've only come to hear of recently. My feeling is that we will look back on baseball 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now, for a period from about 1994 to 2004, a lot of questions about records will be raised. But we can't specify any one player, necessarily. But I think somewhere down the road, there was a ten-year period in baseball where numbers just went off the charts for reasons that, I guess, we can all draw our own conclusions.

DOBBS: Very quickly, Mark McGwire, an anomalous season, raising all sorts of questions about his performance. And at the end of this, if nothing is done, raising the continuing question about accountability for the high-paid professional athletes in this country, the role of sponsors and corporations buying those seats. You think we're going to see a significant change? For example, baseball adopt the Minor League policy?

STEINER: Baseball has to. They have no choice. And it's not Major League Baseball, it's the major league Players Association that has to come across. And I suspect that they will. There's just too much pressure from too many corners for it not to happen.

DOBBS: Perhaps we might, for the first time, see collusion between the baseball owners and the Players Union.

STEINER: Collusion's supposed to be a bad word.

DOBBS: Just if one side does it, I think. It would be nice to see it between them. Thank you very much. Charley Steiner. And good luck, L.A.

STEINER: Thank you.

DOBBS: Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead here tomorrow. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll. 94 percent of you rank Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's performance as poor. Thank you for joining us tonight. Please join us tomorrow. I'll be talking with former U.S. ambassador to China James Lilly. We'll be talking about China's expanding world, economic, political and military power. And in our faceoff, a debate on whether local law enforcement officials should have the authority to arrest and deport illegal aliens.

For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.

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