Return to Transcripts main page
Lou Dobbs Tonight
U.S. Military Evacuating Tsunami Victims; Helicopter Pilots Work Long Hours Delivering Aid; State Department Searches for Missing Americans
Aired January 04, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, an American mission of mercy. The Pentagon has doubled the number of U.S. helicopters flying tsunami relief operations. Hundreds of U.S. Marines have arrived in Sri Lanka to help victims.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It does give the Muslim world and the rest of the world an opportunity to see American generosity, American values in action.
DOBBS: More than 4,000 Americans in the region remain unaccounted for. We'll have a live report from the State Department.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: What we're trying to do is work systematically through all the calls we've received.
DOBBS: In Iraq, five American troops have been killed. Insurgents assassinated a top Iraqi government official. We'll have a report from Baghdad One of the country's biggest lobby groups has launched a huge advertising campaign against President Bush's Social Security reform. The AARP says private Social Security accounts will hurt every American. The AARP's policy director, John Rother, is our guest.
And the extraordinary story of the mars rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, operating a year after they landed. Both rovers still amazing scientists, continuing to send back pictures and data to Earth. I'll be joined by the man leading the exploration rover mission, Steve Squyers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, January 3. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
The United States today sharply increased its efforts to help the millions of tsunami victims in Asia. Officials say 155,000 people are known to have been killed. At least 16 Americans are among the dead, 4,000 unaccounted for. The Pentagon today announced the number of helicopters assigned to the relief operations will be doubled to number 90. One thousand U.S. Marines arrived in Sri Lanka today to help the recovery effort. They brought with them helicopters, bulldozers and generators.
But many survivors in outlying areas are still desperately short of supplies: both food and water. In some areas, troops are taking tough action to stop survivors who rush helicopters trying to aid them.
American helicopters are flying more than 100 missions a day to help tsunami victims in Indonesia alone. Mike Chinoy reports from Banda Aceh in Indonesia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One after another, they were carried off the choppers, lucky to be alive. But some, very close to death. Rescued by U.S. aircrews along the devastated western coast of Sumatra.
They were cut and battered, dazed and dehydrated. After more than a week with no help, their wounds were seriously infected.
MICHAEL BAK, USAID: Some of the cases, so severe, doctors said if we hadn't have plucked them, they probably wouldn't have made it another few days. CHINOY: The survivors were taken to a temporary emergency ward set up just off the runway, staffed by doctors from across the globe.
(on camera) The casualties being flown in here represent just a fraction of the total number of injured. But already, the only two functioning hospitals in Banda Aceh are full and are not accepting any more patients.
(voice-over) So acute is the shortage of hospital beds that U.S. chopper crews have been asked to limit the number of injured they bring back here.
CAPT. LARRY BURT, U.S. NAVY: It is an issue that our aircrew are having a hard time dealing with. You know, you see children out there, and, you know, young people that are seriously, seriously injured that you know they need help. And there's -- it's hard to leave them there until we get this problem fixed.
CHINOY: But this was hardly the only problem. In a bizarre accident, a Boeing 737, a commercial cargo jet, plowed into a water buffalo on the airport's only runway.
Vital deliveries of relief supplies were halted for nearly 18 hours, although helicopter flights did continue.
In the end, American, Australian and Indonesian soldiers managed to tow the jet to the side. The airport reopened. Within minutes, an Indonesian C-130 was on the ground, its boxes of food, water and medicine being unloaded and readied for the next round of chopper flights.
But the fact remains that one water buffalo nearly brought this relief operation to its knees. Testament to the fragility of the effort on which so many lives depend.
Mike Chinoy, CNN, Banda Aceh, Indonesia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Many of those helicopters that we just saw are based on American warships. The USS Bonhomme Richard Expeditionary Group and the USS Abraham Lincoln Carrier Group are both off the coast of Indonesia.
Atika Shubert has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Helasron 2 (ph), the helicopter squadron on the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln. The squadron plays a critical flow in the flow of aid to Aceh's hardest hit and most inaccessible regions.
Lt. Commander Mark Leavitt has been flying to Aceh's devastated west coast for the last three days.
He starts at the Banda Aceh Airport, transporting anything from food and water to medical teams. Indonesia's military pitches in with coordination and a helping hand.
So far, Helasron 2 (ph) has delivered more than 100,000 pounds of aid. It can be harrowing, he says, delivering supplies to desperate people.
LT. CMDR. MARK LEAVITT, HELICOPTER PILOT: And they're very excited to see us, oftentimes running up underneath the helicopter, running around the tail rotor. So you're a little afraid at first, and then you see a body or you see someone severely hurt, and you're brought back to the reality of what had -- of what had happened there. So it's a range of emotions every day you flew fly here.
SHUBERT: This Indonesian soldier broke his leg a week ago in the tsunami. Helasron 2 (ph) will deliver him to a hospital before returning to the Lincoln for the night.
In the pitch darkness of the flight deck, a crew of five to seven mechanics checks every part while pilots rest. It is grueling work: 12-hour shifts, five hours per helicopter, each aircraft worked on simultaneously.
JOSEPH COELHO, HELICOPTER MECHANIC: It is a rush to try and get these aircraft turned around and maintained and get back out there to do the mission. But at the same time, we want to be safe and do it slowly enough to make sure we're not overlooking any steps.
SHUBERT: Getting enough rest on an aircraft carrier can be difficult, even for pilots. And then, there's the worry.
LEAVITT: Knowing people that are out there having problems living through the night makes it hard to sleep.
SHUBERT: But sleep, they must. Helasron 2 (ph) is still needed tomorrow.
Atika Shubert on board the USS Abraham Lincoln.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Thailand, the government today said the number of people killed by the tsunamis has risen to more than 5,000. Officials say more than half of those killed in Thailand are foreign tourists. The government estimates more than 4,000 other people, Thais and foreigners, remain missing.
At least 16 Americans are known to have died in the disaster, but as many as 4,000 other Americans remain unaccounted for. The State Department says it will take some time before it can confirm the number of Americans who were killed. Andrea Koppel reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Karen Faust is glued to her computer in Howell, Michigan, reading e-mails from Thailand.
KAREN FAUST, STEPDAUGHTER MISSING: There is always hope. I heard stories of miracles yesterday.
KOPPEL: Hoping against hope her stepdaughter, Angie Faust, and boyfriend, Luke Skully (ph), are still alive. The couple was on vacation in Thailand when the tsunami struck.
FAUST: As time passes, it gets much more hard to hear, to even read the e-mails because you're thinking the worst at every one.
KOPPEL: Like thousands of other Americans, Karen Faust called a State Department hotline when she heard the news, to let them know Angie was missing. But more than a week after the tsunami, still no news about Angie, and still uncertainty as to just how many Americans are actually missing.
POWELL: There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 4,000 Americans that we're trying to get track of. I don't know how many of them were in Thailand, how many were elsewhere. And I don't even know if they should be called missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people over the last couple days have received e-mails and telephone calls.
KOPPEL: A State Department task force is devoted to running down an estimated 4,100 inquiries or phone calls made on behalf of Americans who relatives believe are missing.
On the defensive, State Department officials say 16 Americans are now confirmed dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can't you, you know, bite the bullet and make some statement...
ERELI: I think...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About Americans probably missing?
ERELI: Yes. I think, frankly, Barry, that we'll soon be in a position to do that.
KOPPEL: But other countries like Sweden, for which this is already an unprecedented national disaster, have managed to get answers. Fifty-two Swedes are confirmed dead; 2,000 others are classified as missing.
JAN ELIASSON, SWEDEN'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: I will not paint a rosy picture. It's extremely difficult. And there are many uncertainties. But we have worked through the families, the travel agencies. We've sent down hundreds -- up to 100 people to Thailand to go through the hospitals.
KOPPEL: Complicating matters, State Department officials say, of the 4,100 unresolved inquiries, there are multiple reports for the same person, different names used, and sometimes the names are misspelled.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: The U.S. insists that it, too, is doing everything it can and devoting countless resources to the search for Americans, saying that it's working with immigration officials, with relief agencies and with airlines, Lou, to try to track down Americans -- Lou.
DOBBS: Andrea, thank you.
The State Department is, of course, anxious to hear from anyone who has new information about their missing friends or relatives in the region. State Department officials say anyone who has called the State Department already and has now heard from survivors should call 1-888-407-4747. That number again 1-888-407-4747.
Congress returned to work today with aid for tsunami victims at the top of the agenda. Lawmakers are likely to approve a substantial increase in the $350 million aid package already approved by President Bush.
Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry has the report -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
We've just received word that tomorrow afternoon the Senate Armed Services Committee is going to get a closed briefing by Defense Department and State Department officials about the U.S. government's tsunami relief efforts. This is just yet another sign that as the 109th Congress kicks off, while there are a lot of other issues like Social Security on the table, they'll have to wait until after the inauguration because tsunami relief has vaulted to the top of the agenda. That's the way it played out on the first day today after a little bit of housekeeping.
In the Senate, Vice President Cheney was here swearing in freshmen and newly re-elected senators. There was a light moment when Cheney actually swore in Senator Patrick Leahy. You'll remember last year Cheney directed a four-letter word at Senator Leahy.
Afterwards, I spoke to Vice President Cheney, and he joked that this time they exchanged pleasantries. Senator Leahy also told CNN that it's better to be sworn in than sworn at.
So, obviously, a little bit of humor on the first day, but that was leavened by some sadness dealing with the tsunami disaster.
Over in the House, Speaker Dennis Hastert was sworn in again as speaker and swore in new members as well, and then he gave a speech in which he said that the entire Congress is going to rally around the tsunami victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: And our deepest condolences go to all those who lost loved ones in this terrible event. And just as former Presidents Clinton and Bush will join together to coordinate private relief efforts here in the United States, we in the Congress will work together on a bipartisan basis to get the necessary relief to those in need.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Also today, the House and Senate passing resolutions expressing their support for President Bush's pledge for a $350 million aid package for the tsunami victims.
But, as you mentioned, Lou, it's very likely that will be increased possibly later this month with an emergency funding bill by the Congress. But, so far, lawmakers do not want to write out a blank check in the beginning.
Instead, several lawmakers are heading to the region themselves this week in order to get a closer look, and, after they make an assessment, they will decide later this month whether or not to increase the aid package.
One of those lawmakers heading over to Sri Lanka tonight, in fact, is Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: By their own initiative, private individuals and charities, nongovernment organizations and businesses have raised millions of dollars to aid the tsunami victims. I am filled with admiration for the compassion demonstrated by our fellow citizens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: In order to encourage more private donations, two senators today, Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley, said they're introducing legislation that will allow American taxpayers to claim a tax deduction for tax year 2004, if they make charitable contributions to the tsunami relief effort by January 31 of this year -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much.
Ed Henry reporting from Capitol Hill.
Here, we'll have much more on the tsunami relief operations, including an analysis of how it will affect U.S. relations in the region. And our guest tonight is -- includes that list. Former Newsweek international editor Tracy Dahlby.
Also ahead, a high-level Iraqi official has been gunned down in Baghdad. And new information tonight about the number of American troops wounded in Iraq. That's next.
And the best government money can buy? Special interests are spending more money than ever trying to influence those who represent you and me. We'll tell you what they're winning.
All of that, a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In Iraq, four American soldiers and a Marine were killed today in three separate insurgent attacks. Several other American troops were wounded today.
The Pentagon now says more than 10,000 American troops have been wounded in combat in Iraq. More than half of them, 5,400 troops, were wounded so badly they could not return to duty. Insurgents today also assassinated a top official in Iraq's interim government.
Jeff Koinange reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Yet another sign of the times in Baghdad. Killings and assassinations the order of the day. On this day, insurgents caught up with a powerful governor of Baghdad, Ali Al-Haidri, a senior member of Iraq's beleaguered interim government.
He and his six bodyguards were on their way to the office when their three-car convoy was intercepted by unidentified gunmen. Eyewitnesses report an intense firefight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The governor was passing through here. Then two cars appeared on the side, and they started shooting. Another car was at the front shooting as well.
KOINANGE: Ali-Haidri was sprayed with machine gunfire, killing him and a bodyguard. This was a second attempt on the governor's life. He becomes the highest-ranking member of the interim government to be assassinated.
Less than an hour earlier in another part of Baghdad, adjacent to the heavily fortified green zone, a suicide bomber rammed his petrol- filled oil tanker into a police checkpoint near the Iraqi police command headquarters. Huge clouds of black smoke filled the morning skies as charred bodies littered the streets.
Ten people were reported killed, including eight police commandos. These are the same commandos who are supposed to provide protection for Iraqis going to the polls in elections scheduled for January 30.
And elsewhere across this troubled nation, the attacks on Iraqi servicemen continued. Near Baqubah in the Sunni triangle, three Iraqi National Guardsmen were killed and two wounded when their vehicle overran an improvised explosive device.
(on camera): With less than three weeks to go before the January 30 election, one thing is clear. The insurgents seem determined to strike on an almost daily basis, and no one here is safe.
Jeff Koinange, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Mississippi today welcomed home dozens of troops from Iraq. More than 70 members of the Army National Guard's 112th Military Police Battalion arrived in Canton, Mississippi, today. That battalion has been guarding the U.S. Embassy and members of the interim Iraqi government. The unit has been in Iraq since last January.
Welcome home.
In Kansas, a father and son are preparing for deployment to Iraq with the U.S. Marines. Thirty-four-year-old Major Christopher Phelps and his father, 57-year-old Master Gunnery Sergeant Kendall Phelps, will serve together as part of the 5th Civil Affairs Group. Their tour is expected to last seven months.
It is Major Phelps' second deployment to Iraq. During his first tour, Major Phelps sent his parents this picture. He is holding a sign that says, jokingly, "Dad, wish you were here." Both Marines have orders to report to Camp Lejeune and will deploy to Iraq within the next two months.
Still ahead here tonight, how millions of dollars in U.S. aid to south Asia could effect our relations with the region. Tracy Dahlby, the author of "Allah's Torch," is our guest.
And then, thousands of Americans are missing in the tsunami disaster. We'll have the latest on how U.S. officials are trying to locate them and to rescue them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: House Republicans today abandoned several measures that critics charge would weaken ethical standards on Capitol Hill. One of them was a rule that would have allowed party leaders to remain in power if they are indicted. The so-called DeLay rule. That rule was enacted just weeks ago. And the DeLay rule, of course, named for Majority Leader Tom DeLay. A grand jury in Texas has indicted three of his associates for campaign fund-raising misconduct.
One Republican congressman praised the reversal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZACK WAMP (R) TENNESSEE: Dumb political thing to do, and now they've retreated from it, which, I think, is a bold move showing that they're a leadership team that is not arrogant or obstinate or pig-headed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And we should point out that DeLay has not been indicted, and he denies any wrongdoing.
Tonight, a spending spree in Washington where corporate interests are spending record amounts of money to lobby your lawmakers and representatives on behalf of their shareholders, and critics say this is only the beginning.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The price tag for access to Washington last year: a record $2 billion. It works out to $5-1/2 million a day, and special interests think it's money well spent.
LARRY NOBLE, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: And these are bottom-line industries. They're not going to spend the money if they don't think that they're going to get a manyfold return on their investment.
ROMANS: The biggest spender: the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. In just the first six months of the year, it spent $30 million; the American Medical Association, more than $9 million; GE and the drug industry lobby each spend at least $8 million.
The big-money issues: health care, telecommunications, banking and insurance, staggering numbers, and all just for the first six months. For the special interests, it's the best environment in years.
STEPHEN MOORE, PRESIDENT, CLUB FOR GROWTH: You've got all the stars aligned finally politically to get some really big things done. It's going to be almost an arms race among lobbyists to see who can have the most impact on this legislative battlefront over the next six months.
ROMANS: Business leaders are unapologetic. They say the health of the U.S. economy is at stake.
TOM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: We're spending money so that the government doesn't put so many impediments in the way that we kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Special interest groups and their critics agree a window of opportunity has opened up in Washington. Changes in energy and tax policy Social Security, tort reform -- all these, Lou, will have dramatic implications on the bottom line for corporate America, and they will be front and center when every one of those changes is made.
DOBBS: And we'll be watching it ever so closely because this government -- it's acting, at times, a bit like the best government money can buy. U.S. corporate interests are remarkably powerful.
Thank you very much.
Christine Romans.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question is: Whose interests do you think our lawmakers are putting first -- our citizens or corporate America? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
Also ahead here tonight, author Tracy Dahlby says American aid providing tsunami relief could change our relations with the Muslim world. He's my guest next.
And then, searching for thousands of missing Americans after the tsunami disaster. We'll have a live report from Indonesia.
And then, the AARP launches a new attack against President Bush's plan to privatize Social Security. AARP policymaker John Rother is our guest.
All of that, a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: I'll be talking with author Tracy Dahlby about defending ourselves against a new terrorist threat and the opportunity to improve relations with the largest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia.
But, first, these stories. The 109th Congress today sworn in. One of the top priorities immigration reform. Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner is expected to introduce legislation tomorrow with provisions dropped from the intelligence reform bill last month. These provisions would set a national standard for driver's licenses requiring citizenship to obtain a driver's license. Imagine that.
A civil rights group in Arizona today asking a federal appellate court to block a law that denies some benefits to illegal aliens. The law, passed in November, requires proof of citizenship when registering to vote and to receive government services and aid. The Mexican-American Legal Defense and Educational Fund wants the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals to block parts of that law while it appeals.
And wild weather continues to batter parts of California, leaving messy and dangerous conditions in its wake. Forty miles of California's main highway remains shut down tonight. Forecasters say residents should expect another round of heavy rain and snow across the state.
The U.S. State Department says at least 16 Americans are confirmed dead in the tsunami disaster, but as many as 4,000 Americans are still unaccounted for. Today Secretary of State Colin Powell and Governor Jeb Bush of Florida visited two of the worst affected countries, Thailand and Indonesia. John King now reports from the Indonesian capital, Jakarta -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, that goodwill mission by Secretary Powell and Governor Bush designed to bring promises of American generosity, promises of continued American aid to the countries hardest hit by the tsunami. But a recurring and an increasingly frustrating question for Secretary Powell and others in the delegation is just what is the exact extent of the American death toll and the number of Americans injured in the tsunami? And it is proving quite difficult and frustrating to the secretary, we are told, to try to get that answer.
As you noted, the secretary in Indonesia now, he will travel later today to some of the areas hardest hit. Yesterday in Phuket, Thailand, Mr. Powell and Governor Bush did meet with U.S. consulate officials who have the job of going to local hospitals, going to local morgues, checking travel records, checking any contacts with U.S. consulates and U.S. embassies, trying it track down just exactly how many Americans are truly missing.
Now, the State Department has a list of about 4,000 names, but it says it believes that is a grossly exaggerated number, that people called in in the immediate hours and days after the tsunami saying they thought a friend or relative was in the affected region. The overwhelming majority of those people, the State Department believes, were never in any harm, have already gone home, or are elsewhere in this region. But there are still some Americans unaccounted for, perhaps someday to be listed as missing. Governor Bush telling me during that stop in Phuket, Thailand, no matter what the actual number is, it is a major concern. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: The secretary has been asking a lot of very direct questions about that because obviously that's of concern. There are some 4,000 names, I believe, that had been identified as potentially missing, not even -- because they've called -- people have called in 14, 15 have died, and others probably have as well. And so, you know, there are a lot of people from the embassy from different -- the military and other places working on that right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: So the State Department does not list those 4,000 as missing, it says they are unaccounted for, and it is continuing to check the list. Again, Lou, the official death toll at 16, some U.S. officials say perhaps that number could double, perhaps even go a bit higher than that. They believe the 4,000 figure, again, is grossly exaggerated. But they say one of the frustrations, and they saw evidence of this in Thailand, is that many of the bodies have simply not yet been recovered.
So if there were Americans, for example, in those coastal resort areas of Thailand, their bodies have yet to be recovered at this point. When bodies are recovered, they are incredibly difficult to identify. One of the reasons the government of Thailand has asked for more help from the United States for teams that have DNA experience, forensic teams, forensic pathologists to Thailand. U.S. officials saying they hope to have a better number in the days ahead. The first thing they hope to do is whittle thousands off that list of 4,000 by checking back with families in the United States hoping they will find out if many of those who initially called in with concerns have now heard from their loved ones -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, we want to help do just that. John King reporting from Jakarta. Thank you, John.
The State Department is anxious to hear from anyone who has new information about their missing friends or relatives in Asia. Officials say anyone who has called the State Department already and has now heard from survivors should call 1-888-407-4747. That number, again, 1-888-407-4747.
The tsunamis devastated a region that is at least, in part a breeding ground in the minds of many for radical Islamist terrorism. The United States has pledged at least $350 million to help Indonesia and other parts of south Asia recover from this disaster. My guest says that aid could help repair U.S. relations with that part of the world. Former "Newsweek" international managing editor Tracy Dahlby is the author of "Allah's Torch, A Report From Behind the Scenes in Asia's War on Terror." Good to have you with us.
Let me ask you first, the devastation here, Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, in point of fact, do you think this has an opportunity to materially affect the relationships, the relationship between the United States and Indonesia? TRACY DAHLBY, AUTHOR, "ALLAH'S TORCH": I think it's a tremendously important moment for the United States in that part of the world not only in Indonesia, but throughout south and southeast Asia. The Indonesians were basically on our side before the -- before 9/11. There was a poll done in 2000 in which Indonesians were asked, in essence, do you like the United States? 75 percent of the Indonesians said yes, we like the United States. We have a favorable opinion.
Three years later, after Afghanistan, after Iraq, the same question was asked, and only 15 percent of Indonesians expressed a favorable view of the United States. Somebody discussing the book with me said, oh, well, that means they all hate us now. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Of course, there are a few people in that part of the world who hate us. We're never going to change their minds. But in the book, I prefer to call it a hibernating regard for the United States. And I think with the appearance of the helicopters from the Abraham Lincoln, with the announcement of this very generous aid package, that now the Indonesians are seeing the United States that they always knew and liked, and I think that's going to have a tremendous impact.
DOBBS: The idea that we are able to bring this relief -- and every expectation is that we are going to raise the amount of aid to these hard-hit countries, the hardest hit amongst them, of course, Indonesia, about 100,000 Indonesians lost their lives in these tsunamis. Is it your expectation that we'll see a real change in the attitudes, the regard for radical Islamists in that country?
DAHLBY: I think that eventually -- well, the interesting thing is that through the Internet, you get various interesting tidbits. And one of the things that I found most interesting over the last couple of days was that friends were telling me that in Aceh, the worst hit of the areas people were saying -- they were frustrated with the slow pace of the Indonesian government. But they weren't saying, where's Osama or where's Saudi Arabia? They were saying, where's the United States? And now that we've arrived, I think it will have a positive impact, but it will also help isolate, to some degree, those who have aligned themselves with radical Islam in the Arab countries.
DOBBS: You bring up an interesting point. The Arab countries, many of whom are extraordinarily poor, although some of them are extraordinarily rich, have done so very little in proffering aid for the victims of the tsunamis. What is your judgment as to the impact of that lack of assistance from fellow Muslims from the -- particularly the Arab region?
DAHLBY: I think, just as it took a little while for us to gear up our effort, and I think the Bush administration, in that sense, was unfairly criticized because of the scope of the tragedy.
DOBBS: Absolutely. The people doing the criticism who are so quick to criticize themselves did not understand the scale of this disaster. I don't think any of us thought it would be this devastating. DAHLBY: Precisely. It took a while to unfold. I think the slowness of the Saudis, and I guess today they've raised their aid to $30 million. Still small considering the size of their economy. So I think that that may not have a good impact for them on Indonesian public opinion.
DOBBS: And we're out of time, Tracy. We appreciate your being here. Let's hope that good things come to pass as a result of aid offered simply because people simply needed it, the politics notwithstanding. Tracy Dahlby, thank you very much.
DAHLBY: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, why the AARP is launching a campaign against President Bush's Social Security reform plan. John Rother, the director of policy and strategy for the AARP is our guest.
And then our series this week on tort reform. We call it jackpot justice. Tonight, you'll see why. Are lawyers, we ask, are lawyers to blame for this country's frivolous lawsuits? We'll find out.
And we'll have a live report from Sri Lanka where U.S. marines have now arrived, helping the relief effort in the tsunami disaster. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New information tonight on President Bush's plans to reform Social Security. According to reports by the Associated Press, an administration official now says the Bush Social Security plan would allow workers to invest up to 4 percent of payroll taxes in private accounts with an annual cap of $1,000 to $1,300. The AARP is sharply opposed to privatizing Social Security and says it will do everything possible to defeat it. Today the AARP unveiled a new advertising campaign, saying privatization is a risk that will hurt all generations. John Rother, the director of policy and strategy for AARP joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
John, your organization coming out against the president's plan. Why can't you be supportive? Social Security is so important to your membership.
JOHN ROTHER, DIR., POLICY AND STRATEGY, AARP: Well, we don't want to see Social Security turned into social insecurity. And we think that efforts to privatize it or shift 4 percent of payroll into private accounts would put future beneficiaries at risk. And so we'd like to see the program strengthen in other ways and we think there are more modest ways that can assure that Social Security...
DOBBS: Let's talk about some of those ways. But first, I would like to understand, because you are a very clever and seasoned political analyst and strategist as well as a terrific leader of this advertising effort. What in the world -- why is the president taking this issue on right now? I have not seen a single reliable estimate that puts the crisis point, if you will, any nearer than 2042 or 2052. ROTHER: I don't think Social Security is in crisis at all. I do think, though, that it is easier to address the problem if we act fairly soon than if we wait till the crisis is upon us. So in the spirit of being prudent, I think you can make a case for acting now. But it's certainly not a program in crisis.
DOBBS: All right. Let's talk about prudent. A transition cost in privatization that could reach $2 trillion. That doesn't sound prudent to me at all.
ROTHER: Not prudent in my book either. That simply adds interest costs, adds to the federal debt, and probably raises interest rates for all of us. So not good.
DOBBS: What about this business of changing the indexing of Social Security from wages to cost of living?
ROTHER: Well, it sounds innocuous enough. But really, the way it works is over time, it would be a very significant benefit cut. And over, say, 40 years, you'd see benefits cut relatively speaking, in half. So it would shrink Social Security to the point where it would be a much less significant program.
DOBBS: Much less significant or just insignificant?
ROTHER: Well, I guess insignificant in the sense it would only replace about 40 percent of preretirement earnings -- I'm sorry, only replace 20 percent of preretirement earnings compared to about 40 percent on average today.
DOBBS: Reaching out to about, what, 250 to reach that dire level?
ROTHER: Well, that's right. It does depend on what happens with the economy.
DOBBS: Let's go to your solutions. You've dismissed the president's proposals. Give us quickly -- we're really out of time. Give us quickly the two most important things that you think should be done.
ROTHER: Well, we could certainly increase the wage base on which people pay into Social Security today. Social Security is capped at $90,000, and people who make more than that do not pay in. I think it would be fair to ask people who make more than that to contribute. Secondly, I think we can do some things to make the cost of living adjustment more accurate. And thirdly, we ought to make sure that we get our money's worth out of the Social Security trust fund, and we could invest part of that trust fund in the equities market in, say, a broad index fund that would not put individuals at risk.
DOBBS: You're scaring me with that last one, John. You had me up until the last one. That sounds a little like privatization to me. But let me ask you this. Why not -- you didn't mention means testing. There are people in this country who do not depend on Social Security. Is it -- first, it seems to me, it would make sense to have means testing. But the question becomes how significant it is in solving some of the issues that we'll face in the decades ahead.
ROTHER: Well, I don't think we're going to solve the problem through means testing. There's not enough people that well off that would really solve the problem. And it might create additional problems. Means testing really penalizes people who do the right thing by saving and investing for the future. We don't want to discourage that.
DOBBS: We certainly don't. And we thank you for being with us, John Rother, as this debate is now under way. Thanks to you and your organization, in part.
ROTHER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Now our special report on tort reform. Another part of the Bush agenda. Our reports we're calling jackpot justice this week. The United States has the highest legal costs in all the world. Many legal experts say high jury awards and frivolous lawsuits have turned our nation into a legal quagmire. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A look at the numbers shows the United States is a litigious society compared to the rest of the world.
STEPHEN LOWE, TOWERS PERRIN: In very round figures, the U.S. system is about twice to three times as expensive as the systems in those other countries.
PILGRIM: Towers Perrin finds the United States has the highest at more than 2 percent of gross domestic product. There's no single answer why, but one is civil cases are tried by juries in the United States, and juries are sometimes sympathetic to the plaintiff.
DAVID BERNSTEIN, GEORGE MASON LAW SCHOOL: In every other country except the United States, the judges determine both liability and how much you get. Payouts that plaintiffs get in the United States, at least sometimes, are astronomical compared to what you'd see in any other country.
PILGRIM: Another reason -- in other systems, the loser often pays legal costs for both sides. That tends to cut down on lawsuits without merit. One study finds large class class-action cases also drive up costs. In the United States, asbestos settlements were the largest single reason tort costs rose in recent years. Medical malpractice costs, including legal fees, settlements and insurance premiums were $27 billion in 2003. $91 per person. The majority of settlements are reasonable, but extreme cases drive up insurance rates and medical costs.
STEWART TAYLOR, "NATIONAL JUROR": Juries in our system are invited to award gargantuan sums for noneconomic damages, pain and suffering, in particular, sometimes punitive damages.
PILGRIM: But some point out the legal and medical systems around the world are different. So comparisons are not neat.
HERBERT KRITZER, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN: The United States, in some ways, is probably higher, but we put into the tort system expenses that are handled through social insurance such as national health insurance and the like.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, one study points out that unless there is a significant structural change to the U.S. tort system, costs will be up 5 percent to 8 percent for the next several years. On a per capita basis, they say tort costs could be $1,000 per person by the year 2006 -- Lou.
DOBBS: And for some reason no one wants to talk about limiting what attorneys make in these cases, offering one-third to 40 percent of the settlements in the awards. That might stem some of it certainly and limiting to about $250,000 those awards as some states are now doing. Kitty, thank you. Informative. Appreciate it. Kitty Pilgrim.
More now on the tsunami disaster. U.S. marines arrived in Sri Lanka today with the challenging task of delivering supplies and aid to thousands of tsunami survivors. More than 30,000 people were killed in that disaster in that country alone. Anderson Cooper joins us now live from Beruwala, Sri Lanka -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, good evening, Lou. Yes, the U.S. marines arrived yesterday. One contingent in Colombo, also a Blackhawk helicopter landed further south in the city of Galle. Actually, traveled past Galle yesterday further south to the city of Montero (ph). And it was interesting, Lou, because what we're finding, really, wherever we go, is that as the relief and the recovery continues and in some cases begins in some of these towns which have been hard hit, people are struggling for answers and trying to figure out ways to sort of understand and comprehend what has happened to them, what has happened to their neighbors, what has happened to this small teardrop-shaped island off the coast of India. Some of the answers we're coming up with might surprise you.
We found one church in Montero where 20 people were killed during communion while taking mass. And they believe, while 20 people died in that church, they believe a miracle actually occurred during the tsunami.
We'll talk about that coming up at the 7:00 hour, Lou.
DOBBS: Anderson, thank you very much. Anderson Cooper. And he will have much more on the tsunami disaster. Our CNN special report, "Turning the Tide" at 7:00 p.m. Eastern at the top of the hour right here on CNN.
Still ahead, one amazing year on Mars for two NASA rovers. The lead investigator of the mission, Steve Squyres, is our guest when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we take a look at an amazing year on Mars. One year ago today, the Spirit rover touched down on the planet Mars, followed a few weeks later by its twin, Opportunity. Both rovers have exceeded the expectations of scientists and enthusiasts. My next guest, one of the driving forces behind the missions, joining me now from Pasadena, California. Steve Squyres, the principal investigator behind the Mars rovers, also professor of astronomy at Cornell University, coming to us tonight from JPL. Good to have you with us, Steve.
STEVE SQUYRES, MARS ROVER PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR: Hey, Lou, it's good to be here.
DOBBS: You guys were talking 90 days tops for both Spirit and Opportunity on the surface of Mars. And yet here we're still receiving pictures a year later. We're getting all sorts of data. How did we get that lucky?
SQUYRES: It was a combination of things. Partly these are just good pieces of hardware. We take a lot of pride in the fact that they've lasted so long, because we've worked really hard to build good hardware, and we've always felt that if we got down on the surfaces, their chances of lasting a long time might be good.
But we've been fortunate, too. We planned for really bad conditions on Mars. We planned for dust storms, we've planned for very adverse conditions, and the conditions have actually been pretty good. So we're doing well.
DOBBS: Is that an anomaly, Steve, that the conditions have been better, less dust than you expected, less violence in the atmosphere, or is it just a nature of the region that your -- the rover and Opportunity -- that Spirit and Opportunity are in?
SQUYRES: I don't think it's an anomaly. When you plan for these missions, you have to plan for the worst case. You don't plan for what you expect, you plan for the worst that you can imagine. Because you want to be sure that it's going to last.
And then if the conditions are better, you cash that in.
DOBBS: Well, cashing in, you've got a lot of data to analyze, tons of it. And wonderful pictures. What is, in your mind, at least, the most important discovery, the most important finding of the rover missions?
SQUYRES: I think the most important thing so far has got to be the recognition that at the Opportunity landing site, there were once conditions that would have been suitable for life. There was a salty body of liquid water there at the surface that would have provided an environment that life could have survived in. Now, whether there was life there or not, we do not know. But now we know the place to go to to try to find the answer to that question.
DOBBS: That extrapolation has, as you know, some in the scientific community and also the space community saying, you know, wait a minute. We know it's -- there's been volcanic activity. We'll accede to there's been changes in the surface because of wind. But to extrapolate that conditions existed and that there was actual water, the suggestion that there is water is going too far. How do you respond?
SQUYRES: Oh, I think the question of whether or not there was water there has been answered. I think we've got an unambiguous answer to that. And it builds on suspicions that we've had for a long time.
We went to the specific places because data from orbit suggested that there was once water there.
The big question right now is does that water mean that there was life? Water is a necessary condition for life, but we don't know that it's sufficient. OK, what else does it take for life to evolve? That's the kind of thing we want to find by going back to these places.
DOBBS: And many of us want you to get us back as quickly as possible. And when we say "us," we're talking about manned missions, human exploration. What's the likelihood?
SQUYRES: Oh, I think it's going to happen. You know, I'm a robot guy. I do -- sending robots to Mars is what I do for a living, but even I feel that the best exploration, the most compelling exploration is going to be done by humans.
It's going to take a while, no question about it. It's difficult, it's dangerous and it's expensive. But when the technology and the resources are there, I believe it could, should and will happen.
DOBBS: Well, Steve, I'm a robot guy too after Spirit and Opportunity, and their predecessor, the remarkable Pathfinder mission as well. But join you in that desire to see what we can find up close and personal on the planet Mars. We thank you for -- and all of your colleagues who have pulled off a remarkable mission. Extraordinary talent and commitment. The genius of the program continues. We thank you, Steve Squyres.
SQUYRES: Well, thank you very much.
DOBBS: Still ahead, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Rovers working great on Mars, but our voting machinery not. We'll try to fix that by tomorrow. And tomorrow, two experts will be here to face off on whether the Iraqi election should proceed. Please be with us. For all of here, good night from New York. Our CNN special report on the tsunami disaster, "Turning the Tide," coming up next on CNN.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 4, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, an American mission of mercy. The Pentagon has doubled the number of U.S. helicopters flying tsunami relief operations. Hundreds of U.S. Marines have arrived in Sri Lanka to help victims.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: It does give the Muslim world and the rest of the world an opportunity to see American generosity, American values in action.
DOBBS: More than 4,000 Americans in the region remain unaccounted for. We'll have a live report from the State Department.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: What we're trying to do is work systematically through all the calls we've received.
DOBBS: In Iraq, five American troops have been killed. Insurgents assassinated a top Iraqi government official. We'll have a report from Baghdad One of the country's biggest lobby groups has launched a huge advertising campaign against President Bush's Social Security reform. The AARP says private Social Security accounts will hurt every American. The AARP's policy director, John Rother, is our guest.
And the extraordinary story of the mars rovers, Spirit and Opportunity, operating a year after they landed. Both rovers still amazing scientists, continuing to send back pictures and data to Earth. I'll be joined by the man leading the exploration rover mission, Steve Squyers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, January 3. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
The United States today sharply increased its efforts to help the millions of tsunami victims in Asia. Officials say 155,000 people are known to have been killed. At least 16 Americans are among the dead, 4,000 unaccounted for. The Pentagon today announced the number of helicopters assigned to the relief operations will be doubled to number 90. One thousand U.S. Marines arrived in Sri Lanka today to help the recovery effort. They brought with them helicopters, bulldozers and generators.
But many survivors in outlying areas are still desperately short of supplies: both food and water. In some areas, troops are taking tough action to stop survivors who rush helicopters trying to aid them.
American helicopters are flying more than 100 missions a day to help tsunami victims in Indonesia alone. Mike Chinoy reports from Banda Aceh in Indonesia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE CHINOY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One after another, they were carried off the choppers, lucky to be alive. But some, very close to death. Rescued by U.S. aircrews along the devastated western coast of Sumatra.
They were cut and battered, dazed and dehydrated. After more than a week with no help, their wounds were seriously infected.
MICHAEL BAK, USAID: Some of the cases, so severe, doctors said if we hadn't have plucked them, they probably wouldn't have made it another few days. CHINOY: The survivors were taken to a temporary emergency ward set up just off the runway, staffed by doctors from across the globe.
(on camera) The casualties being flown in here represent just a fraction of the total number of injured. But already, the only two functioning hospitals in Banda Aceh are full and are not accepting any more patients.
(voice-over) So acute is the shortage of hospital beds that U.S. chopper crews have been asked to limit the number of injured they bring back here.
CAPT. LARRY BURT, U.S. NAVY: It is an issue that our aircrew are having a hard time dealing with. You know, you see children out there, and, you know, young people that are seriously, seriously injured that you know they need help. And there's -- it's hard to leave them there until we get this problem fixed.
CHINOY: But this was hardly the only problem. In a bizarre accident, a Boeing 737, a commercial cargo jet, plowed into a water buffalo on the airport's only runway.
Vital deliveries of relief supplies were halted for nearly 18 hours, although helicopter flights did continue.
In the end, American, Australian and Indonesian soldiers managed to tow the jet to the side. The airport reopened. Within minutes, an Indonesian C-130 was on the ground, its boxes of food, water and medicine being unloaded and readied for the next round of chopper flights.
But the fact remains that one water buffalo nearly brought this relief operation to its knees. Testament to the fragility of the effort on which so many lives depend.
Mike Chinoy, CNN, Banda Aceh, Indonesia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Many of those helicopters that we just saw are based on American warships. The USS Bonhomme Richard Expeditionary Group and the USS Abraham Lincoln Carrier Group are both off the coast of Indonesia.
Atika Shubert has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Helasron 2 (ph), the helicopter squadron on the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln. The squadron plays a critical flow in the flow of aid to Aceh's hardest hit and most inaccessible regions.
Lt. Commander Mark Leavitt has been flying to Aceh's devastated west coast for the last three days.
He starts at the Banda Aceh Airport, transporting anything from food and water to medical teams. Indonesia's military pitches in with coordination and a helping hand.
So far, Helasron 2 (ph) has delivered more than 100,000 pounds of aid. It can be harrowing, he says, delivering supplies to desperate people.
LT. CMDR. MARK LEAVITT, HELICOPTER PILOT: And they're very excited to see us, oftentimes running up underneath the helicopter, running around the tail rotor. So you're a little afraid at first, and then you see a body or you see someone severely hurt, and you're brought back to the reality of what had -- of what had happened there. So it's a range of emotions every day you flew fly here.
SHUBERT: This Indonesian soldier broke his leg a week ago in the tsunami. Helasron 2 (ph) will deliver him to a hospital before returning to the Lincoln for the night.
In the pitch darkness of the flight deck, a crew of five to seven mechanics checks every part while pilots rest. It is grueling work: 12-hour shifts, five hours per helicopter, each aircraft worked on simultaneously.
JOSEPH COELHO, HELICOPTER MECHANIC: It is a rush to try and get these aircraft turned around and maintained and get back out there to do the mission. But at the same time, we want to be safe and do it slowly enough to make sure we're not overlooking any steps.
SHUBERT: Getting enough rest on an aircraft carrier can be difficult, even for pilots. And then, there's the worry.
LEAVITT: Knowing people that are out there having problems living through the night makes it hard to sleep.
SHUBERT: But sleep, they must. Helasron 2 (ph) is still needed tomorrow.
Atika Shubert on board the USS Abraham Lincoln.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Thailand, the government today said the number of people killed by the tsunamis has risen to more than 5,000. Officials say more than half of those killed in Thailand are foreign tourists. The government estimates more than 4,000 other people, Thais and foreigners, remain missing.
At least 16 Americans are known to have died in the disaster, but as many as 4,000 other Americans remain unaccounted for. The State Department says it will take some time before it can confirm the number of Americans who were killed. Andrea Koppel reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Karen Faust is glued to her computer in Howell, Michigan, reading e-mails from Thailand.
KAREN FAUST, STEPDAUGHTER MISSING: There is always hope. I heard stories of miracles yesterday.
KOPPEL: Hoping against hope her stepdaughter, Angie Faust, and boyfriend, Luke Skully (ph), are still alive. The couple was on vacation in Thailand when the tsunami struck.
FAUST: As time passes, it gets much more hard to hear, to even read the e-mails because you're thinking the worst at every one.
KOPPEL: Like thousands of other Americans, Karen Faust called a State Department hotline when she heard the news, to let them know Angie was missing. But more than a week after the tsunami, still no news about Angie, and still uncertainty as to just how many Americans are actually missing.
POWELL: There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 4,000 Americans that we're trying to get track of. I don't know how many of them were in Thailand, how many were elsewhere. And I don't even know if they should be called missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot of people over the last couple days have received e-mails and telephone calls.
KOPPEL: A State Department task force is devoted to running down an estimated 4,100 inquiries or phone calls made on behalf of Americans who relatives believe are missing.
On the defensive, State Department officials say 16 Americans are now confirmed dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can't you, you know, bite the bullet and make some statement...
ERELI: I think...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About Americans probably missing?
ERELI: Yes. I think, frankly, Barry, that we'll soon be in a position to do that.
KOPPEL: But other countries like Sweden, for which this is already an unprecedented national disaster, have managed to get answers. Fifty-two Swedes are confirmed dead; 2,000 others are classified as missing.
JAN ELIASSON, SWEDEN'S AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: I will not paint a rosy picture. It's extremely difficult. And there are many uncertainties. But we have worked through the families, the travel agencies. We've sent down hundreds -- up to 100 people to Thailand to go through the hospitals.
KOPPEL: Complicating matters, State Department officials say, of the 4,100 unresolved inquiries, there are multiple reports for the same person, different names used, and sometimes the names are misspelled.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: The U.S. insists that it, too, is doing everything it can and devoting countless resources to the search for Americans, saying that it's working with immigration officials, with relief agencies and with airlines, Lou, to try to track down Americans -- Lou.
DOBBS: Andrea, thank you.
The State Department is, of course, anxious to hear from anyone who has new information about their missing friends or relatives in the region. State Department officials say anyone who has called the State Department already and has now heard from survivors should call 1-888-407-4747. That number again 1-888-407-4747.
Congress returned to work today with aid for tsunami victims at the top of the agenda. Lawmakers are likely to approve a substantial increase in the $350 million aid package already approved by President Bush.
Congressional Correspondent Ed Henry has the report -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
We've just received word that tomorrow afternoon the Senate Armed Services Committee is going to get a closed briefing by Defense Department and State Department officials about the U.S. government's tsunami relief efforts. This is just yet another sign that as the 109th Congress kicks off, while there are a lot of other issues like Social Security on the table, they'll have to wait until after the inauguration because tsunami relief has vaulted to the top of the agenda. That's the way it played out on the first day today after a little bit of housekeeping.
In the Senate, Vice President Cheney was here swearing in freshmen and newly re-elected senators. There was a light moment when Cheney actually swore in Senator Patrick Leahy. You'll remember last year Cheney directed a four-letter word at Senator Leahy.
Afterwards, I spoke to Vice President Cheney, and he joked that this time they exchanged pleasantries. Senator Leahy also told CNN that it's better to be sworn in than sworn at.
So, obviously, a little bit of humor on the first day, but that was leavened by some sadness dealing with the tsunami disaster.
Over in the House, Speaker Dennis Hastert was sworn in again as speaker and swore in new members as well, and then he gave a speech in which he said that the entire Congress is going to rally around the tsunami victims.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: And our deepest condolences go to all those who lost loved ones in this terrible event. And just as former Presidents Clinton and Bush will join together to coordinate private relief efforts here in the United States, we in the Congress will work together on a bipartisan basis to get the necessary relief to those in need.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: Also today, the House and Senate passing resolutions expressing their support for President Bush's pledge for a $350 million aid package for the tsunami victims.
But, as you mentioned, Lou, it's very likely that will be increased possibly later this month with an emergency funding bill by the Congress. But, so far, lawmakers do not want to write out a blank check in the beginning.
Instead, several lawmakers are heading to the region themselves this week in order to get a closer look, and, after they make an assessment, they will decide later this month whether or not to increase the aid package.
One of those lawmakers heading over to Sri Lanka tonight, in fact, is Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: By their own initiative, private individuals and charities, nongovernment organizations and businesses have raised millions of dollars to aid the tsunami victims. I am filled with admiration for the compassion demonstrated by our fellow citizens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: In order to encourage more private donations, two senators today, Max Baucus and Chuck Grassley, said they're introducing legislation that will allow American taxpayers to claim a tax deduction for tax year 2004, if they make charitable contributions to the tsunami relief effort by January 31 of this year -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much.
Ed Henry reporting from Capitol Hill.
Here, we'll have much more on the tsunami relief operations, including an analysis of how it will affect U.S. relations in the region. And our guest tonight is -- includes that list. Former Newsweek international editor Tracy Dahlby.
Also ahead, a high-level Iraqi official has been gunned down in Baghdad. And new information tonight about the number of American troops wounded in Iraq. That's next.
And the best government money can buy? Special interests are spending more money than ever trying to influence those who represent you and me. We'll tell you what they're winning.
All of that, a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In Iraq, four American soldiers and a Marine were killed today in three separate insurgent attacks. Several other American troops were wounded today.
The Pentagon now says more than 10,000 American troops have been wounded in combat in Iraq. More than half of them, 5,400 troops, were wounded so badly they could not return to duty. Insurgents today also assassinated a top official in Iraq's interim government.
Jeff Koinange reports from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Yet another sign of the times in Baghdad. Killings and assassinations the order of the day. On this day, insurgents caught up with a powerful governor of Baghdad, Ali Al-Haidri, a senior member of Iraq's beleaguered interim government.
He and his six bodyguards were on their way to the office when their three-car convoy was intercepted by unidentified gunmen. Eyewitnesses report an intense firefight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The governor was passing through here. Then two cars appeared on the side, and they started shooting. Another car was at the front shooting as well.
KOINANGE: Ali-Haidri was sprayed with machine gunfire, killing him and a bodyguard. This was a second attempt on the governor's life. He becomes the highest-ranking member of the interim government to be assassinated.
Less than an hour earlier in another part of Baghdad, adjacent to the heavily fortified green zone, a suicide bomber rammed his petrol- filled oil tanker into a police checkpoint near the Iraqi police command headquarters. Huge clouds of black smoke filled the morning skies as charred bodies littered the streets.
Ten people were reported killed, including eight police commandos. These are the same commandos who are supposed to provide protection for Iraqis going to the polls in elections scheduled for January 30.
And elsewhere across this troubled nation, the attacks on Iraqi servicemen continued. Near Baqubah in the Sunni triangle, three Iraqi National Guardsmen were killed and two wounded when their vehicle overran an improvised explosive device.
(on camera): With less than three weeks to go before the January 30 election, one thing is clear. The insurgents seem determined to strike on an almost daily basis, and no one here is safe.
Jeff Koinange, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Mississippi today welcomed home dozens of troops from Iraq. More than 70 members of the Army National Guard's 112th Military Police Battalion arrived in Canton, Mississippi, today. That battalion has been guarding the U.S. Embassy and members of the interim Iraqi government. The unit has been in Iraq since last January.
Welcome home.
In Kansas, a father and son are preparing for deployment to Iraq with the U.S. Marines. Thirty-four-year-old Major Christopher Phelps and his father, 57-year-old Master Gunnery Sergeant Kendall Phelps, will serve together as part of the 5th Civil Affairs Group. Their tour is expected to last seven months.
It is Major Phelps' second deployment to Iraq. During his first tour, Major Phelps sent his parents this picture. He is holding a sign that says, jokingly, "Dad, wish you were here." Both Marines have orders to report to Camp Lejeune and will deploy to Iraq within the next two months.
Still ahead here tonight, how millions of dollars in U.S. aid to south Asia could effect our relations with the region. Tracy Dahlby, the author of "Allah's Torch," is our guest.
And then, thousands of Americans are missing in the tsunami disaster. We'll have the latest on how U.S. officials are trying to locate them and to rescue them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: House Republicans today abandoned several measures that critics charge would weaken ethical standards on Capitol Hill. One of them was a rule that would have allowed party leaders to remain in power if they are indicted. The so-called DeLay rule. That rule was enacted just weeks ago. And the DeLay rule, of course, named for Majority Leader Tom DeLay. A grand jury in Texas has indicted three of his associates for campaign fund-raising misconduct.
One Republican congressman praised the reversal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZACK WAMP (R) TENNESSEE: Dumb political thing to do, and now they've retreated from it, which, I think, is a bold move showing that they're a leadership team that is not arrogant or obstinate or pig-headed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And we should point out that DeLay has not been indicted, and he denies any wrongdoing.
Tonight, a spending spree in Washington where corporate interests are spending record amounts of money to lobby your lawmakers and representatives on behalf of their shareholders, and critics say this is only the beginning.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The price tag for access to Washington last year: a record $2 billion. It works out to $5-1/2 million a day, and special interests think it's money well spent.
LARRY NOBLE, CENTER FOR RESPONSIVE POLITICS: And these are bottom-line industries. They're not going to spend the money if they don't think that they're going to get a manyfold return on their investment.
ROMANS: The biggest spender: the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. In just the first six months of the year, it spent $30 million; the American Medical Association, more than $9 million; GE and the drug industry lobby each spend at least $8 million.
The big-money issues: health care, telecommunications, banking and insurance, staggering numbers, and all just for the first six months. For the special interests, it's the best environment in years.
STEPHEN MOORE, PRESIDENT, CLUB FOR GROWTH: You've got all the stars aligned finally politically to get some really big things done. It's going to be almost an arms race among lobbyists to see who can have the most impact on this legislative battlefront over the next six months.
ROMANS: Business leaders are unapologetic. They say the health of the U.S. economy is at stake.
TOM DONOHUE, PRESIDENT, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: We're spending money so that the government doesn't put so many impediments in the way that we kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: Special interest groups and their critics agree a window of opportunity has opened up in Washington. Changes in energy and tax policy Social Security, tort reform -- all these, Lou, will have dramatic implications on the bottom line for corporate America, and they will be front and center when every one of those changes is made.
DOBBS: And we'll be watching it ever so closely because this government -- it's acting, at times, a bit like the best government money can buy. U.S. corporate interests are remarkably powerful.
Thank you very much.
Christine Romans.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. The question is: Whose interests do you think our lawmakers are putting first -- our citizens or corporate America? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.
Also ahead here tonight, author Tracy Dahlby says American aid providing tsunami relief could change our relations with the Muslim world. He's my guest next.
And then, searching for thousands of missing Americans after the tsunami disaster. We'll have a live report from Indonesia.
And then, the AARP launches a new attack against President Bush's plan to privatize Social Security. AARP policymaker John Rother is our guest.
All of that, a great deal more still ahead here tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: I'll be talking with author Tracy Dahlby about defending ourselves against a new terrorist threat and the opportunity to improve relations with the largest Muslim country in the world, Indonesia.
But, first, these stories. The 109th Congress today sworn in. One of the top priorities immigration reform. Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner is expected to introduce legislation tomorrow with provisions dropped from the intelligence reform bill last month. These provisions would set a national standard for driver's licenses requiring citizenship to obtain a driver's license. Imagine that.
A civil rights group in Arizona today asking a federal appellate court to block a law that denies some benefits to illegal aliens. The law, passed in November, requires proof of citizenship when registering to vote and to receive government services and aid. The Mexican-American Legal Defense and Educational Fund wants the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals to block parts of that law while it appeals.
And wild weather continues to batter parts of California, leaving messy and dangerous conditions in its wake. Forty miles of California's main highway remains shut down tonight. Forecasters say residents should expect another round of heavy rain and snow across the state.
The U.S. State Department says at least 16 Americans are confirmed dead in the tsunami disaster, but as many as 4,000 Americans are still unaccounted for. Today Secretary of State Colin Powell and Governor Jeb Bush of Florida visited two of the worst affected countries, Thailand and Indonesia. John King now reports from the Indonesian capital, Jakarta -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, that goodwill mission by Secretary Powell and Governor Bush designed to bring promises of American generosity, promises of continued American aid to the countries hardest hit by the tsunami. But a recurring and an increasingly frustrating question for Secretary Powell and others in the delegation is just what is the exact extent of the American death toll and the number of Americans injured in the tsunami? And it is proving quite difficult and frustrating to the secretary, we are told, to try to get that answer.
As you noted, the secretary in Indonesia now, he will travel later today to some of the areas hardest hit. Yesterday in Phuket, Thailand, Mr. Powell and Governor Bush did meet with U.S. consulate officials who have the job of going to local hospitals, going to local morgues, checking travel records, checking any contacts with U.S. consulates and U.S. embassies, trying it track down just exactly how many Americans are truly missing.
Now, the State Department has a list of about 4,000 names, but it says it believes that is a grossly exaggerated number, that people called in in the immediate hours and days after the tsunami saying they thought a friend or relative was in the affected region. The overwhelming majority of those people, the State Department believes, were never in any harm, have already gone home, or are elsewhere in this region. But there are still some Americans unaccounted for, perhaps someday to be listed as missing. Governor Bush telling me during that stop in Phuket, Thailand, no matter what the actual number is, it is a major concern. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: The secretary has been asking a lot of very direct questions about that because obviously that's of concern. There are some 4,000 names, I believe, that had been identified as potentially missing, not even -- because they've called -- people have called in 14, 15 have died, and others probably have as well. And so, you know, there are a lot of people from the embassy from different -- the military and other places working on that right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: So the State Department does not list those 4,000 as missing, it says they are unaccounted for, and it is continuing to check the list. Again, Lou, the official death toll at 16, some U.S. officials say perhaps that number could double, perhaps even go a bit higher than that. They believe the 4,000 figure, again, is grossly exaggerated. But they say one of the frustrations, and they saw evidence of this in Thailand, is that many of the bodies have simply not yet been recovered.
So if there were Americans, for example, in those coastal resort areas of Thailand, their bodies have yet to be recovered at this point. When bodies are recovered, they are incredibly difficult to identify. One of the reasons the government of Thailand has asked for more help from the United States for teams that have DNA experience, forensic teams, forensic pathologists to Thailand. U.S. officials saying they hope to have a better number in the days ahead. The first thing they hope to do is whittle thousands off that list of 4,000 by checking back with families in the United States hoping they will find out if many of those who initially called in with concerns have now heard from their loved ones -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, we want to help do just that. John King reporting from Jakarta. Thank you, John.
The State Department is anxious to hear from anyone who has new information about their missing friends or relatives in Asia. Officials say anyone who has called the State Department already and has now heard from survivors should call 1-888-407-4747. That number, again, 1-888-407-4747.
The tsunamis devastated a region that is at least, in part a breeding ground in the minds of many for radical Islamist terrorism. The United States has pledged at least $350 million to help Indonesia and other parts of south Asia recover from this disaster. My guest says that aid could help repair U.S. relations with that part of the world. Former "Newsweek" international managing editor Tracy Dahlby is the author of "Allah's Torch, A Report From Behind the Scenes in Asia's War on Terror." Good to have you with us.
Let me ask you first, the devastation here, Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, in point of fact, do you think this has an opportunity to materially affect the relationships, the relationship between the United States and Indonesia? TRACY DAHLBY, AUTHOR, "ALLAH'S TORCH": I think it's a tremendously important moment for the United States in that part of the world not only in Indonesia, but throughout south and southeast Asia. The Indonesians were basically on our side before the -- before 9/11. There was a poll done in 2000 in which Indonesians were asked, in essence, do you like the United States? 75 percent of the Indonesians said yes, we like the United States. We have a favorable opinion.
Three years later, after Afghanistan, after Iraq, the same question was asked, and only 15 percent of Indonesians expressed a favorable view of the United States. Somebody discussing the book with me said, oh, well, that means they all hate us now. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Of course, there are a few people in that part of the world who hate us. We're never going to change their minds. But in the book, I prefer to call it a hibernating regard for the United States. And I think with the appearance of the helicopters from the Abraham Lincoln, with the announcement of this very generous aid package, that now the Indonesians are seeing the United States that they always knew and liked, and I think that's going to have a tremendous impact.
DOBBS: The idea that we are able to bring this relief -- and every expectation is that we are going to raise the amount of aid to these hard-hit countries, the hardest hit amongst them, of course, Indonesia, about 100,000 Indonesians lost their lives in these tsunamis. Is it your expectation that we'll see a real change in the attitudes, the regard for radical Islamists in that country?
DAHLBY: I think that eventually -- well, the interesting thing is that through the Internet, you get various interesting tidbits. And one of the things that I found most interesting over the last couple of days was that friends were telling me that in Aceh, the worst hit of the areas people were saying -- they were frustrated with the slow pace of the Indonesian government. But they weren't saying, where's Osama or where's Saudi Arabia? They were saying, where's the United States? And now that we've arrived, I think it will have a positive impact, but it will also help isolate, to some degree, those who have aligned themselves with radical Islam in the Arab countries.
DOBBS: You bring up an interesting point. The Arab countries, many of whom are extraordinarily poor, although some of them are extraordinarily rich, have done so very little in proffering aid for the victims of the tsunamis. What is your judgment as to the impact of that lack of assistance from fellow Muslims from the -- particularly the Arab region?
DAHLBY: I think, just as it took a little while for us to gear up our effort, and I think the Bush administration, in that sense, was unfairly criticized because of the scope of the tragedy.
DOBBS: Absolutely. The people doing the criticism who are so quick to criticize themselves did not understand the scale of this disaster. I don't think any of us thought it would be this devastating. DAHLBY: Precisely. It took a while to unfold. I think the slowness of the Saudis, and I guess today they've raised their aid to $30 million. Still small considering the size of their economy. So I think that that may not have a good impact for them on Indonesian public opinion.
DOBBS: And we're out of time, Tracy. We appreciate your being here. Let's hope that good things come to pass as a result of aid offered simply because people simply needed it, the politics notwithstanding. Tracy Dahlby, thank you very much.
DAHLBY: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, why the AARP is launching a campaign against President Bush's Social Security reform plan. John Rother, the director of policy and strategy for the AARP is our guest.
And then our series this week on tort reform. We call it jackpot justice. Tonight, you'll see why. Are lawyers, we ask, are lawyers to blame for this country's frivolous lawsuits? We'll find out.
And we'll have a live report from Sri Lanka where U.S. marines have now arrived, helping the relief effort in the tsunami disaster. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New information tonight on President Bush's plans to reform Social Security. According to reports by the Associated Press, an administration official now says the Bush Social Security plan would allow workers to invest up to 4 percent of payroll taxes in private accounts with an annual cap of $1,000 to $1,300. The AARP is sharply opposed to privatizing Social Security and says it will do everything possible to defeat it. Today the AARP unveiled a new advertising campaign, saying privatization is a risk that will hurt all generations. John Rother, the director of policy and strategy for AARP joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
John, your organization coming out against the president's plan. Why can't you be supportive? Social Security is so important to your membership.
JOHN ROTHER, DIR., POLICY AND STRATEGY, AARP: Well, we don't want to see Social Security turned into social insecurity. And we think that efforts to privatize it or shift 4 percent of payroll into private accounts would put future beneficiaries at risk. And so we'd like to see the program strengthen in other ways and we think there are more modest ways that can assure that Social Security...
DOBBS: Let's talk about some of those ways. But first, I would like to understand, because you are a very clever and seasoned political analyst and strategist as well as a terrific leader of this advertising effort. What in the world -- why is the president taking this issue on right now? I have not seen a single reliable estimate that puts the crisis point, if you will, any nearer than 2042 or 2052. ROTHER: I don't think Social Security is in crisis at all. I do think, though, that it is easier to address the problem if we act fairly soon than if we wait till the crisis is upon us. So in the spirit of being prudent, I think you can make a case for acting now. But it's certainly not a program in crisis.
DOBBS: All right. Let's talk about prudent. A transition cost in privatization that could reach $2 trillion. That doesn't sound prudent to me at all.
ROTHER: Not prudent in my book either. That simply adds interest costs, adds to the federal debt, and probably raises interest rates for all of us. So not good.
DOBBS: What about this business of changing the indexing of Social Security from wages to cost of living?
ROTHER: Well, it sounds innocuous enough. But really, the way it works is over time, it would be a very significant benefit cut. And over, say, 40 years, you'd see benefits cut relatively speaking, in half. So it would shrink Social Security to the point where it would be a much less significant program.
DOBBS: Much less significant or just insignificant?
ROTHER: Well, I guess insignificant in the sense it would only replace about 40 percent of preretirement earnings -- I'm sorry, only replace 20 percent of preretirement earnings compared to about 40 percent on average today.
DOBBS: Reaching out to about, what, 250 to reach that dire level?
ROTHER: Well, that's right. It does depend on what happens with the economy.
DOBBS: Let's go to your solutions. You've dismissed the president's proposals. Give us quickly -- we're really out of time. Give us quickly the two most important things that you think should be done.
ROTHER: Well, we could certainly increase the wage base on which people pay into Social Security today. Social Security is capped at $90,000, and people who make more than that do not pay in. I think it would be fair to ask people who make more than that to contribute. Secondly, I think we can do some things to make the cost of living adjustment more accurate. And thirdly, we ought to make sure that we get our money's worth out of the Social Security trust fund, and we could invest part of that trust fund in the equities market in, say, a broad index fund that would not put individuals at risk.
DOBBS: You're scaring me with that last one, John. You had me up until the last one. That sounds a little like privatization to me. But let me ask you this. Why not -- you didn't mention means testing. There are people in this country who do not depend on Social Security. Is it -- first, it seems to me, it would make sense to have means testing. But the question becomes how significant it is in solving some of the issues that we'll face in the decades ahead.
ROTHER: Well, I don't think we're going to solve the problem through means testing. There's not enough people that well off that would really solve the problem. And it might create additional problems. Means testing really penalizes people who do the right thing by saving and investing for the future. We don't want to discourage that.
DOBBS: We certainly don't. And we thank you for being with us, John Rother, as this debate is now under way. Thanks to you and your organization, in part.
ROTHER: Thank you.
DOBBS: Now our special report on tort reform. Another part of the Bush agenda. Our reports we're calling jackpot justice this week. The United States has the highest legal costs in all the world. Many legal experts say high jury awards and frivolous lawsuits have turned our nation into a legal quagmire. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A look at the numbers shows the United States is a litigious society compared to the rest of the world.
STEPHEN LOWE, TOWERS PERRIN: In very round figures, the U.S. system is about twice to three times as expensive as the systems in those other countries.
PILGRIM: Towers Perrin finds the United States has the highest at more than 2 percent of gross domestic product. There's no single answer why, but one is civil cases are tried by juries in the United States, and juries are sometimes sympathetic to the plaintiff.
DAVID BERNSTEIN, GEORGE MASON LAW SCHOOL: In every other country except the United States, the judges determine both liability and how much you get. Payouts that plaintiffs get in the United States, at least sometimes, are astronomical compared to what you'd see in any other country.
PILGRIM: Another reason -- in other systems, the loser often pays legal costs for both sides. That tends to cut down on lawsuits without merit. One study finds large class class-action cases also drive up costs. In the United States, asbestos settlements were the largest single reason tort costs rose in recent years. Medical malpractice costs, including legal fees, settlements and insurance premiums were $27 billion in 2003. $91 per person. The majority of settlements are reasonable, but extreme cases drive up insurance rates and medical costs.
STEWART TAYLOR, "NATIONAL JUROR": Juries in our system are invited to award gargantuan sums for noneconomic damages, pain and suffering, in particular, sometimes punitive damages.
PILGRIM: But some point out the legal and medical systems around the world are different. So comparisons are not neat.
HERBERT KRITZER, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN: The United States, in some ways, is probably higher, but we put into the tort system expenses that are handled through social insurance such as national health insurance and the like.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, one study points out that unless there is a significant structural change to the U.S. tort system, costs will be up 5 percent to 8 percent for the next several years. On a per capita basis, they say tort costs could be $1,000 per person by the year 2006 -- Lou.
DOBBS: And for some reason no one wants to talk about limiting what attorneys make in these cases, offering one-third to 40 percent of the settlements in the awards. That might stem some of it certainly and limiting to about $250,000 those awards as some states are now doing. Kitty, thank you. Informative. Appreciate it. Kitty Pilgrim.
More now on the tsunami disaster. U.S. marines arrived in Sri Lanka today with the challenging task of delivering supplies and aid to thousands of tsunami survivors. More than 30,000 people were killed in that disaster in that country alone. Anderson Cooper joins us now live from Beruwala, Sri Lanka -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, good evening, Lou. Yes, the U.S. marines arrived yesterday. One contingent in Colombo, also a Blackhawk helicopter landed further south in the city of Galle. Actually, traveled past Galle yesterday further south to the city of Montero (ph). And it was interesting, Lou, because what we're finding, really, wherever we go, is that as the relief and the recovery continues and in some cases begins in some of these towns which have been hard hit, people are struggling for answers and trying to figure out ways to sort of understand and comprehend what has happened to them, what has happened to their neighbors, what has happened to this small teardrop-shaped island off the coast of India. Some of the answers we're coming up with might surprise you.
We found one church in Montero where 20 people were killed during communion while taking mass. And they believe, while 20 people died in that church, they believe a miracle actually occurred during the tsunami.
We'll talk about that coming up at the 7:00 hour, Lou.
DOBBS: Anderson, thank you very much. Anderson Cooper. And he will have much more on the tsunami disaster. Our CNN special report, "Turning the Tide" at 7:00 p.m. Eastern at the top of the hour right here on CNN.
Still ahead, one amazing year on Mars for two NASA rovers. The lead investigator of the mission, Steve Squyres, is our guest when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, we take a look at an amazing year on Mars. One year ago today, the Spirit rover touched down on the planet Mars, followed a few weeks later by its twin, Opportunity. Both rovers have exceeded the expectations of scientists and enthusiasts. My next guest, one of the driving forces behind the missions, joining me now from Pasadena, California. Steve Squyres, the principal investigator behind the Mars rovers, also professor of astronomy at Cornell University, coming to us tonight from JPL. Good to have you with us, Steve.
STEVE SQUYRES, MARS ROVER PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR: Hey, Lou, it's good to be here.
DOBBS: You guys were talking 90 days tops for both Spirit and Opportunity on the surface of Mars. And yet here we're still receiving pictures a year later. We're getting all sorts of data. How did we get that lucky?
SQUYRES: It was a combination of things. Partly these are just good pieces of hardware. We take a lot of pride in the fact that they've lasted so long, because we've worked really hard to build good hardware, and we've always felt that if we got down on the surfaces, their chances of lasting a long time might be good.
But we've been fortunate, too. We planned for really bad conditions on Mars. We planned for dust storms, we've planned for very adverse conditions, and the conditions have actually been pretty good. So we're doing well.
DOBBS: Is that an anomaly, Steve, that the conditions have been better, less dust than you expected, less violence in the atmosphere, or is it just a nature of the region that your -- the rover and Opportunity -- that Spirit and Opportunity are in?
SQUYRES: I don't think it's an anomaly. When you plan for these missions, you have to plan for the worst case. You don't plan for what you expect, you plan for the worst that you can imagine. Because you want to be sure that it's going to last.
And then if the conditions are better, you cash that in.
DOBBS: Well, cashing in, you've got a lot of data to analyze, tons of it. And wonderful pictures. What is, in your mind, at least, the most important discovery, the most important finding of the rover missions?
SQUYRES: I think the most important thing so far has got to be the recognition that at the Opportunity landing site, there were once conditions that would have been suitable for life. There was a salty body of liquid water there at the surface that would have provided an environment that life could have survived in. Now, whether there was life there or not, we do not know. But now we know the place to go to to try to find the answer to that question.
DOBBS: That extrapolation has, as you know, some in the scientific community and also the space community saying, you know, wait a minute. We know it's -- there's been volcanic activity. We'll accede to there's been changes in the surface because of wind. But to extrapolate that conditions existed and that there was actual water, the suggestion that there is water is going too far. How do you respond?
SQUYRES: Oh, I think the question of whether or not there was water there has been answered. I think we've got an unambiguous answer to that. And it builds on suspicions that we've had for a long time.
We went to the specific places because data from orbit suggested that there was once water there.
The big question right now is does that water mean that there was life? Water is a necessary condition for life, but we don't know that it's sufficient. OK, what else does it take for life to evolve? That's the kind of thing we want to find by going back to these places.
DOBBS: And many of us want you to get us back as quickly as possible. And when we say "us," we're talking about manned missions, human exploration. What's the likelihood?
SQUYRES: Oh, I think it's going to happen. You know, I'm a robot guy. I do -- sending robots to Mars is what I do for a living, but even I feel that the best exploration, the most compelling exploration is going to be done by humans.
It's going to take a while, no question about it. It's difficult, it's dangerous and it's expensive. But when the technology and the resources are there, I believe it could, should and will happen.
DOBBS: Well, Steve, I'm a robot guy too after Spirit and Opportunity, and their predecessor, the remarkable Pathfinder mission as well. But join you in that desire to see what we can find up close and personal on the planet Mars. We thank you for -- and all of your colleagues who have pulled off a remarkable mission. Extraordinary talent and commitment. The genius of the program continues. We thank you, Steve Squyres.
SQUYRES: Well, thank you very much.
DOBBS: Still ahead, a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Rovers working great on Mars, but our voting machinery not. We'll try to fix that by tomorrow. And tomorrow, two experts will be here to face off on whether the Iraqi election should proceed. Please be with us. For all of here, good night from New York. Our CNN special report on the tsunami disaster, "Turning the Tide," coming up next on CNN.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
