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NEWS FROM CNN

Firefighters Continue Search for Mudslide Victims; U.S. Ends Search for WMD in Iraq; U.S. Marines Unarmed in Indonesia Due to Government Request

Aired January 12, 2005 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Hi, Daryn. Thanks very much. Thanks very much to Rick. We'll have a lot more on that story coming up this hour, as well.
To our viewers, thanks very much for joining us. Here's THE NEWS FROM CNN.

More heartbreak uncovered from beneath the mud. A mother and her three daughters now counted among the dead in California. We're live on the scene with the search for those still missing.

And in -- in an Iraq already plagued by daily attacks, word that there's more violence. Also word that the search for WMD, weapons of mass destruction, is over. As more questions are raised about the upcoming elections, joining us this hour, two members of Congress just back from the region.

Also, the outgoing secretary of health and human services, Tommy Thompson. He'll join me live. I'll ask him about the new dietary guidelines announced only within the past hour and about the safety of America's food supply from terrorist attack.

A very busy hour ahead. First some other headlines now in the news.

Long-awaited guidance to the nation's federal courts. The highest court in the land reins in federal judges from adding to criminal sentences without involving the jury.

The decision stopped short of completely eliminating the controversial federal sentencing guidelines. It was 5-4, the ruling that is. An enormously important ruling.

Our Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst, standing by to talk about it and explain what this means.

The defense of Charles Graner scheduled to begin at Fort Hood, Texas. Detainees from Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison have testified that Graner abused them and seemed to enjoy it. The 36-year-old reservist was the alleged ringleader of the horrors at Abu Ghraib.

And President Bush has news for high school students. Speaking this morning to students in suburban Washington in Northern Virginia, Mr. Bush said it's time to expand the nationwide math and reading tests from grade schools into high schools. His proposal needs the backing of a potentially skeptical U.S. Congress.

Up first the La Conchita mudslide. The round the clock search continues this hour for as many as 10 people who are still unaccounted for.

CNN's Rusty Dornin is on the scene for us along the Southern California coast.

Rusty, what's the latest?

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the sad discovery of this morning of a mother and her three children. That was the Wallet family.

Jim Wallet, the father and husband, went out to get ice cream when the mudslide occurred. He came back as soon as it happened and desperately tried to dig his family out, but their bodies were uncovered this morning.

The good news here is that the weather is bright and sunny, which does help the searchers here. As you can see, though, the scar of that mudslide looms ominously over the search site.

They're using, still, listening equipment and dogs to try to find anyone who might be inside there.

Now there was some confusion about if there was a warning before this mudslide happened. We have the home video from Dena Hayess just moments before this mudslide, showing that there was a very small mudslide before it happened that sent a lot of mud and debris, rock into the streets. And residents were outside trying to dig out before it happened.

She said that they did notice that the side of the hill had subsided, but they had no real warning that it was all going to come crashing down.

Now officials here are stressing this is still a rescue operation. But it becomes more difficult to hold out hope for survivors as they dig farther back in to the rubble.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB ROPER, VENTURE COUNTY FIRE CHIEF: We go up and we talk to the rescuers firsthand, see exactly what they're going through. Once we know that there is no more voids, that we're not getting any sounds, then we'll start making the decisions to go into recovery mode.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: And that could happen sometime later this afternoon. They're going to probably be distributing the names of the 10 people unaccounted for, just to make sure that one of them perhaps wasn't out of town.

They also say there could be more than 10 people. Someone could have had a visitor in the house that was unknown at the time.

They're also getting ready for Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who will be making an aerial as well as a ground tour in the next half hour or so -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Will he be having remarks to the news media, Rusty, a news conference following his aerial and ground tour of the area, the governor?

DORNIN: As we understand, yes, he will. They're setting up a site right now where he's going to be having a press conference.

Also the displaced residents, Wolf, apparently are having their own meeting at the same time. It was scheduled. You know, it was sort of a mistake that they were both scheduled at the same time the governor is here. The residents are about 20 miles south, also meeting with the fire department and rescue officials to talk about when they can come back and what happens next.

BLITZER: All right, Rusty, we'll stay in touch with you. Thanks very much for your good reporting, as usual.

Statewide about 20 deaths are being blamed on the storms that brought five solid days of rain, plus massive mountain snowfalls.

Outside Los Angeles, a boulder -- look at this -- rolled down on Topanga Canyon Boulevard. And here's how workers removed it. They blasted it once, then twice, and then they hauled away the rubble. That was one. Look at this, one huge rock.

Those big Pacific storms caused troubles inland, as well. Flooding occurred in Arizona and Nevada. And in southern Utah, surging waters consumed a number of homes in places where flooding hardly ever occurs. The Utah National Guard had to swing into action to airlift people who found themselves stranded.

Hurricanes, tsunamis and mudslides. What's going on and why now? Tonight, here on CNN, a special "NEWSNIGHT" presentation, a one-hour in-depth look at nature's wrath. That airs tonight, 10 p.m. Eastern, only on CNN. A special "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN."

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You have to fix...

BLITZER: It was one of the man rationales for war in Iraq. Now two years later, the largely fruitless hunt for weapons of mass destruction has ended with very little fanfare.

Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, is joining us now with more on that.

Barbara, what's going on?

STARR: Well, Wolf it really is something that had been long expected, which is the somewhat more official word that the physical searches in Iraq have now basically been concluded in the hunt for weapons of mass destruction. Of course, it was some two years ago that President Bush took the country to war, saying that a major reason for the invasion of Iraq was to stop Saddam -- Saddam Hussein's weapons programs. But, of course, in the months since then, no weapons of mass destruction found, no stockpiles, no real evidence of ongoing programs.

So intelligence officials are now confirming that as of a few weeks ago, basically they have made it more official. The physical searches for WMD in Iraq have essentially now stopped.

What they are doing, however, is they are still looking at thousands of pages of documents that they have collected. If they find any new leads in those documents, they will go back. They will look again.

But now the priority very much is on the insurgency. The 1,700 members of that Iraq Survey Group that were looking for the WMD, most of them now are focusing on the higher priority of providing intelligence support to fight the insurgency, considered a much higher priority.

The final report of that Iraq Survey Group is under way, that report expected in the next several weeks to months. But, no real surprise. The final word really appears to be that they have not found WMD in Iraq -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Are they ready to take the next step, Charles Duelfer in his report, the step that David Kay, Duelfer's predecessor, took and acknowledge now that the Iraqis, Tariq Aziz, other Saddam Hussein loyalists, were, in fact, telling the West, telling the United Nations the truth when they maintained they had no weapons of mass destruction?

STARR: I think it's unclear at this point whether the final Duelfer report will specifically name what some of those people have testified to, those well-known leaders in the Saddam Hussein regime.

It's just not clear at this point how much they will get into, what those people have told them.

But of course, it is worth noting that many of those people are still held by the Iraqis, by the coalition, facing the possibility of trial in Iraq. So their testimony, their statements about what they know or what they did know about Saddam Hussein's weapons program will be of great interest to everyone. What comes out in the public arena before those people go to trial is a bit unclear at this point, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thanks very much, Barbara Starr.

Iraqis are supposed to hold democratic elections only weeks from today. Can the vote go off as planned? And what role will women play in the new Iraqi government?

Two members of the U.S. Congress, representatives Ellen Tauscher and Judy Biggert, they just got back from the region. They're standing by to join me here in the studio later this hour.

Let's move on to south Asia now and the massive relief effort in the wake of those deadly tsunamis.

U.S. Marines are scaling back their mission as Indonesia's president, while grateful, wants international troops out as soon as possible.

Some encouraging news for those nations hardest hit. They won't have to repay billions of dollars in debt, at least from now.

CNN's John King is on the phone with us now from Banda Aceh in Indonesia, a city clearly struggling to recover, that entire area.

John, first of all, update our viewers on how U.S. Marines now will be patrolling the area.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it's a compromise struck with the Indonesian government. Marines say it is because of the political sensitivities, having an armed U.S. military presence on the ground in a country where anti-American sentiment runs quite high.

So that when the Marines come ashore as part of the humanitarian missions, they are unarmed. They are not carrying any weapons at all. Whether it be in a field hospital they set up west of Banda Aceh in the coastal town of Meulaboh or other humanitarian missions, they do not carry any weapons.

Instead, the Marines say they are comfortable with what they call force protection and security measures negotiated with the Indonesian military.

Now, military sources also say that if there is a problem those Marines onshore are in close contact with their ships, which are just offshore and they could get help quite quickly. But when they are onshore as part of those humanitarian missions the U.S. Marines are not carrying weapons -- Wolf.

BLITZER: This is highly unusual, John, based on my years covering the U.S. military, including my years as a Pentagon correspondent.

I don't remember a precedent. But maybe you've been told that there are precedents where U.S. military forces have gone into potentially hostile areas where there are rebel fighters, and they have agreed to the host country's demand that they go in unarmed.

Are there precedents?

KING: The Marines say there are precedents in humanitarian missions, where troops from the United States and other countries have gone into other sovereign nations not carrying weapons.

What makes this situation interesting, and I'm sure to some military families back in the United States perhaps questionable, is that you're right. We are in a conflict zone where the Indonesian military has occasional firefights with the separatist rebels here in the Aceh province.

So there have not been any major firefights. A few skirmishes, none involving areas where other foreign troops have been since the tsunami relief effort began. But it certainly is a possibility that could cause some consternation back in the states.

Again the Marines say they are comfortable with the security provisions in place and that armed Marines are a quick call away, a radio call away.

But I spoke to the Marine general who commands all of the U.S. forces in Indonesia earlier this week, and he says you're in another country. It's not our country. There is a trust issue between the United States and the Indonesians. And he has to be a diplomat as well as a military commander.

BLITZER: I take it, John, none of these demands on disarming the U.S. military troops who are helping in this humanitarian operation in the other countries, whether Thailand or Sri Lanka or any place else, that they haven't made similar demands, the host countries there?

KING: I'm not specifically sure of the conditions in those countries. I know we've looked at the pictures of the Marines here when they've come ashore and they're not carrying weapons. We need to check I would think with those other countries.

This is the most -- there is a conflict, also, in Sri Lanka but it is in an isolated area. And to the best of my knowledge no U.S. troops have been that close to the conflict zone in Sri Lanka as of now.

So it is interesting that here in Aceh province, U.S. Marines are coming ashore in areas relatively close to where there has been fighting in the past.

Again, though, the Marine general in charge said he's comfortable with all this. But I'm sure some folks back home raised some eyebrows.

BLITZER: I'm sure you're right. And let's hope it's all moot, the whole discussion about this.

One final question, John, before I let you go. Overall, how does it look now in this third week of this disaster? Do they look like they're making some serious progress?

KING: They're making progress, Wolf. It would be hard to say serious progress, because the devastation is so remarkable and so thorough.

And that is why this decision by the Indonesian government to say that just 10 weeks from now, at the end of March, it believes it will be in a position to have all the foreign troops leave and at that point, to require the aid groups to prove that they need to be here, to prove that there are still vital services to provide. No one I have spoken to, including a great number of the people here in Banda Aceh, believe the reconstruction effort and the relief effort and the feeding and the relocation effort will be anywhere near complete just 10 weeks from now.

The Indonesian government is clearly nervous about the presence of all these foreigners in this part of the country. And there could be conflict down the road, not only between the relief groups and the Indonesian government or perhaps between some of the Indonesian people, who are grateful for this help and say they think it should continue for some time to come, and their own government -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, John King reporting for us in Banda Aceh. An important story there, a continuing story that we're watching for our viewers around the world.

In a "CNN Security Watch," protecting pilots and passengers.

Thirty-one times since mid-December, pilots have reported that lasers were beamed into their cockpits. The FBI's now involved, and the government is trying to make sure pilots know how to react, and that law enforcement acts quickly.

Here's what the transportation secretary, Norm Mineta, had to say just a few moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NORM MINETA, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: I am very, very concerned about the recent increases in the frequency of these reportings by pilots.

Now first of all, let me address the security issue. There is no credible or specific intelligence that would indicate that these laser incidents are connected to terrorists. As far as we know, lasers are not the terrorists' weapon of choice, nor is there any evidence that these incidents are terrorists practicing for use of other weapons as some people have speculated.

What we are concerned with is a very small number of irresponsible people using pen style lasers and commercially available pointers to illuminate aircraft in a way that could be dangerous to their operation, as Doctor Atananyu (ph) has indicated, or illegal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Our law enforcement analyst, Mike Brooks, is joining us now from the CNN Center in Atlanta.

Mike, this is potentially an enormously serious problem, because these lasers can blind these pilots. Is that the issue?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's exactly right, Wolf. And the secretary called it a serious aviation security manner and said that these lasers are not toys. It can cause temporary flash blindness to pilots either on takeoff, on final approach or landing, the most vital times in a flight. And puts the pilots, the crew, and the passengers on board at great risk.

BLITZER: What is the suspicion? The suspicion that these are just a bunch of kids or pranksters? There's no evidence that there's any organized terrorist plot is there?

BROOKS: None whatsoever. He was very, very -- very, very clear on that, that there is no specific or credible intelligence to say that these are terrorist acts or that terrorists are preparing to use these as sightings for any particular weapon.

But he called it stupid and dangerous. And these are -- he said that these are just irresponsible people doing this.

And we saw last week, Wolf, a man in New Jersey who was actually arrested for two incidents. One for pointing it at a Port Authority helicopter. And the other incident for pointing it at a jet that was coming into a private airport at Teterboro, the Teterboro Airport.

And he was actually charged with lying to federal agents and also charged with terrorist attacks and other acts of violence against the mass transportation system. And these are serious felonies.

And he is making a point at this conference that this is a serious offense and that, if you are caught, that you will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

BLITZER: These lasers, these laser pens or whatever, they're very readily available. You can go into almost any kind of store and buy them that sells this kind of electronic equipment.

BROOKS: That's exactly right. And he said also, as part of this program, he is going to contact the Food and Drug Administration, as well as the Consumer Product Safety Commission for better labeling and better consumer education on the dangers of these lasers.

The laser that the man in New Jersey bought that was used to shine against a helicopter and that plane, that was bought over line for $119, and that particular laser says it's the most powerful laser available without having a license for a laser typical of, like, used in laser shows. But a very, very powerful laser that was hand held -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And Norm Mineta announcing just a few moments ago that pilots, when they are flashed with these lasers, now must report to federal law enforcement authorities all these incidents.

Mike Brooks doing some good analysis for us as usual. Thanks, Mike, very much.

BROOKS: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: To our viewers, "CNN Security Watch" keeps you up to date on safety. Please stay tuned day and night for the most reliable news about your security. That's here on CNN.

Coming up, what can we expect from the man picked to be the new homeland security chief? We'll talk with someone who's worked with Michael Chertoff. He's CNN's senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin. He'll join me here in the studio live.

Also, only on CNN, my interview with the outgoing health and human services secretary, Tommy Thompson. He'll join us here live, as well.

You're watching NEWS FROM CNN, and we're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to NEWS FROM CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

The Supreme Court today has forced a major revision of the way the courts sentence federal criminals. Put succinctly, juries do less -- judges do less, that is, juries do more. It's a hugely important ruling and may cast doubt literally on hundreds, if not thousands of sentences being served right now.

Here to talk about it, our senior legal analyst, CNN's Jeffrey Toobin.

How big of a deal is this, Jeff?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It really is a big deal. You know, you can't say this about many days, but it is a good day to be a federal prisoner. Because there are a lot of sentences, not all of them, but a lot of sentences that are going to be changed as a result of this.

BLITZER: All right. Explain to our viewers the history, a little bit of the background, on these federal sentencing guidelines.

TOOBIN: Right. You know, Congress addressed a real problem. In 1984 they passed a law -- it went into effect in 1986 -- that said if you're convicted of the same crime, you should get the same sentence.

You know, there were courthouses -- I worked in one -- where if you got an easy judge, you'd get one sentence. If you got a tough judge you'd get a different sentence for exactly the same crime. So they said let's make guidelines so that the sentences are all even.

BLITZER: Sounds like a good idea.

TOOBIN: And it's important to emphasize that the system has not been overturned. The system will remain intact.

But the problem arose is that under the system that Congress set up, there's points. You get a certain number of points for each crime. Like a mail fraud is a 10.

But the judge could increase that number on his own, without the jury's influence. And that could have a huge impact.

In the case before the Supreme Court today, the jury's -- the jury's sentence, in effect, was 78 months. The judge knocked it up to 188 months, an enormous difference.

BLITZER: Because he had the authority to do so on what basis?

TOOBIN: Finding other facts in the case that the jury didn't necessarily find. The jury would just say guilty or not guilty. But the judge would say, "Well, you engaged in extensive planning. You had so much drugs above the mandatory minimum that I'm going to find all these drugs should be counted against you."

That's what bumped up the sentences.

BLITZER: And was that part of the sentencing guidelines, the federal guidelines?

TOOBIN: Yes.

BLITZER: So the judge had the leeway within those guidelines?

TOOBIN: And that is what the Supreme Court said, by a very narrow, 5-4 margin, that's what they said was unconstitutional today, the judge bumping things up that way.

BLITZER: Sandra Day O'Connor being the swing vote once again today?

TOOBIN: You know, it's very interesting. It's a different split than you usually see on the court. You had Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Justice Breyer, the two most liberal justices, in the majority, along with Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia. So it's a very unusual split.

This whole sentencing issue which the court, has been struggling with for several years has not had the traditional liberal, conservative split.

BLITZER: Has the most conservative, the most liberal joining together against the middle if you will.

TOOBIN: Absolutely. Against the middle, absolutely.

BLITZER: Very interesting. Let's -- let's talk about the practical impact. Those prisoners who are awaiting sentencing right now, federal prisoners, those -- and those who are already sentenced, what will this mean?

TOOBIN: Well, I think different things for the different -- those two different categories.

The people who are in the process of being sentenced right now, the Justice Department and the Federal Sentencing Guideline Board is going to have to scramble to make new rules, and they will basically be sentenced under the new rules. The real unanswered question in this opinion is what happens to all the people now in prison sentences under the old system? Is it retroactive? We don't really know.

I predict, and this is not much of a bold prediction, federal courts are going to be inundated with requests for resentencing. And the Supreme Court is probably going to be back in this again to straighten this out.

BLITZER: So -- so all of those federal prisoners who got a bigger, more significant sentence than the juries necessarily recommended, but because the judge said you know, you deserve more time in jail, their lawyers are now going to be filing appeals? Is that what you're saying?

TOOBIN: Not just their lawyers. There are going to be a lot of handwritten requests from inmates wanting -- wanting new sentences. And whether they're entitled to a retroactive ruling here has not been decided. That will have huge implications.

BLITZER: All right. Let's talk about the new nominee to become the next secretary of homeland security. You know Michael Chertoff.

TOOBIN: I do. I do. I've known Mike for a long time.

In 1986, I had just graduated from law school. I was his summer intern on a big mafia case he was working on. He's a wonderful lawyer. Really one of the smartest people I've ever met. And it's really quite a remarkable turn for him.

BLITZER: Everybody agrees he's a brilliant, brilliant lawyer, a great judicial experience, whether he was a clerk or whether a judge now in the federal court of appeals.

The question that Democrats have been asking is his management skills. Managing this huge department with what, 180,000 or so people working under him. Does he have anything in his background to justify that kind of management role?

TOOBIN: Well, having managed me, I think he's probably -- no. The answer is no. He really doesn't.

BLITZER: In the federal division there's 800 people.

TOOBIN: Eight hundred people. He was U.S. attorney in New Jersey, which has a few hundred people. But you know, the scale is completely different. And also it's a different task.

You know, if you were becoming attorney general, I think no one would be surprised, because he has had sort of the perfect resume to become attorney general.

He does not have experience as specifically a homeland security expert. Yet, he was in charge of the post-9/11 criminal prosecutions, which had a big component. But he does not have direct homeland security experience. BLITZER: All right. We'll see what happens. Jeffrey Toobin, thanks very much.

TOOBIN: All right.

BLITZER: Will this month's election in Iraq give new power and create new opportunities for women in Iraq? We'll talk about that with two women who were members of the delegation visiting the region to talk to Iraqi women. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILES O'BRIEN, CO-HOST, "LIVE FROM": The top 25 innovations that changed the world and our lives during CNN's first 25 years. We asked experts at the Lemelson-MIT program to come up with a list.

At 15, a shocker: nickel metal hydride and lithium ion batteries. Without them, cell phones, laptop computers and video cameras wouldn't ask nearly as long.

No. 14 is automatic teller machines. ATMs changed how we deal with dead presidents forever more.

No. 13, vehicle air bags have saved thousands of lives since they exploded on the market.

Who are you? No. 12 knows. DNA fingerprinting changed forensic science forever.

PROF. SIR ALEC JEFFREYS, GENETICS UNIVERSITY, LEICESTER, U.K.: We could see from that very first DNA fingerprint, not only as potential biological identification but also for sorting out family relationships.

O'BRIEN: Eleven on the list is a mini marvel used in everything from ink jet printers to sensors for air bags: MEMS, or micro electric mechanical systems.

Stay tuned as we count down to No. 1.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to NEWS FROM CNN. In less than three weeks, Iraqi voters go to the polls. Will the election be free and fair, despite the continuing insurgency? Joining me now two members of the U.S. Congress who have just returned from Amman, Jordan, where they helped train Iraqi female candidates. California Democrat Ellen Tauscher is the co-chair of the Iraqi Women's Caucus, and Illinois Republican Judy Biggert was a member of that congressional delegation, as well.

Welcome back to Washington. I guess the question jumps up, why Amman, Jordan? Why not Baghdad?

REP. ELLEN TAUSCHER (D), CALIFORNIA: Because it wasn't safe enough to be in Baghdad.

BLITZER: Well, what does that say? The fact that you couldn't even go to Iraq to help train, or help educate or encourage Iraqi women to vote and participate? It was too dangerous to go there. What does it say about the election?

TAUSCHER: It says everything, doesn't it? We just really are deeply concerned that we will have a free and fair election that is legitimate and credible. But I have to tell you that the women we met with, 20 women on the ballot, all courageous, fearless patriots, many of them with advanced degrees, all of them deeply in danger, really want power for Iraqis, and I think they're willing to risk their lives in order to do this, but frankly, I think it's our responsibility to provide security, and we just have never had enough troops on the ground in order to do that.

BLITZER: So these 20 Iraqi women, congresswoman, they came to Amman, Jordan from Iraq. These are women who are seeking election, right?

TAUSCHER: Mm-hmm.

BLITZER: And you met with them. And what was the point?

REP. JUDY BIGGERT (R), ILLINOIS: Well, the point was to train them. Of course, that's kind of a difficult situation, because they can't really go out and campaign. They don't want their pictures. They don't want to be seen. They don't want to be photographed because of the fear of the insurgents attacking them.

BLITZER: You mean to say even by putting their names on these ballots they're endangering their own lives?

TAUSCHER: Yes, the lists are really not published so that the names don't come out.

BLITZER: So when people vote on January 30th, they're going to have 280 names or something like that on the ballot. That will be the first time they'll go in to the ballot -- the booths, and they'll see who's on these lists?

BIGGERT: There's been education over there about the election and how this is going to be an election with national constituency, rather than districts or provinces. So they won't know -- they don't know where they are on the list either.

BLITZER: Well, how can people vote -- and I'll ask Ellen Tauscher this, how can people vote for candidates they don't know anything about? They don't know who they are. They might see these names for the first time on a list on January 30th. I'm sure millions of Iraqis are hungry to vote, but this sounds like a sort of crazy way to go about doing it.

TAUSCHER: Well, it's been wrong for a long time, and frankly, this is the lesser of all the evils. We really have a situation now where thousands of people have presented themselves to write a constitution, that want to present themselves for election. Two of the women that were there out of the 20 have children murdered. One of them was kidnapped and had to be ransomed back for their family. We know that poll workers are being killed. Policemen are being killed every day. This is, frankly, not the best way for us to be launching a democracy in Iraq.

But at the same time, I think the only way we can begin to have a success strategy is to turn power over to indigenous Iraqis so that they can begin to train up an Iraqi security force that reports to real Iraqis in Baghdad so that they can start to exchange themselves for us one for one.

But on the other hand, I think that we really are in jeopardy of putting forth an election that is neither legitimate or credible, and we could find ourselves with like a Ukraine situation, where we end up a few days after the elections and everybody says it doesn't work.

BLITZER: Are you that pessimistic?

BIGGERT: No. But with some qualifications I think that the election should go forward. And in discussing this with the women, this was a diverse group of women.

BLITZER: The 20 Iraqi women.

BIGGERT: They came from -- they were Sunnis, they were Shiites, they were Kurds and a lot of independents. So that they were willing to -- they're all willing to put their lives on the line.

BLITZER: Were the Sunni women there suggesting to you, the Sunni Iraqi women, that their fellow Sunnis will go out and vote?

BIGGERT: No. No. I think that the Sunnis were there because they want representation, but they would like to have it postponed, and they wanted to talk to us about it. But most of the others want to go ahead, and even some of the Sunnis said, you know, if we don't do it now, there's no guarantee that there ever will be an election. So they would -- most of the women would rather proceed, go ahead with the election. This is the first step to democracy. This is really to establish the national assembly, which will, in turn, write the Constitution. It's not the final thrust where they will be elected to the government.

So this was -- this is as somebody has said, this is an election in a combat zone, and it's going to be difficult. But it could be worse to postpone it and do it later, if it would ever happen.

BLITZER: Did you come back, Congresswoman, even more pessimistic about the overall situation in Iraq than when you headed out there to Jordan? BIGGERT: I have to say that I -- yes, I really thought it was more dangerous than I ever expected. And to hear the stories of these women who had lost members of their family, who had been attacked and killed because of their -- the woman running for office.

BLITZER: And Ellen Tauscher, what about you?

TAUSCHER: Well, confirmed what I had seen the last few trips I've been to Iraq, and I believe that we have really failed to provide security. We've never had enough troops on the ground. And to go forward with this election, I'm supporting it, because no one can guarantee that in 90 or 180 days we'll have better security. What does that actually mean? If you can't guarantee better security in the short-term, I guess giving power to Iraqis is the right thing.

But I think that we are in a failed strategy right now, and I think that what's deeply disappointing for me is that the administration doesn't appear to have the ability to have the facts persuade them, that we need to have a change of course and a recognition that we really don't have the right policy going forward.

BIGGERT: Well, it's my understanding that there will be more troops in 20,000...

BLITZER: More than the 150,000?

BIGGERT: Well, they say it had been 132,000.

(CROSSTALK)

BIGGERT: They will be transferring them to the provinces, particularly the two provinces that are the real combat zone.

BLITZER: In the Sunni Triangle.

BIGGERT: Right, and moving them from others.

There are a lot of, I think also that there will be some accommodation if those areas are not able to hold the vote at that time. So I think we need to go ahead, and I'm hopeful and I think that we gave the women the encouragement and the hope that this will happen.

BLITZER: I think we can all agree, these are very courageous Iraqi women indeed.

Thanks to both of you, Ellen Tauscher, for joining us. Judy Biggert, thanks to you, as well.

It's lunch time in the Eastern Time Zone, a good time to talk about new dietary guidelines just put out by the federal government. Also, the safety of our food supply. We'll do all that. The Health and Human Services sector Tommy Thompson standing by. He'll join me here live. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Welcome back. A healthier nation. That's what our government is striving for with a few new guidelines and a revision of that familiar food pyramid. Here to brief us in-depth, the outgoing Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson. Mr. Secretary, thanks very much for joining us.

TOMMY THOMPSON, HHS SECRETARY: Well, thank you, Wolf. And thank you so very much for having me interviewed on this particular subject. You know it's one of my passions is to get America and Americans healthier.

BLITZER: All right. So let's talk about what the new recommendations are that you came out with today together with the Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman.

THOMPSON: Well, basically it's telling you to eat less and exercise more.

BLITZER: Now, that's not new. We've been hearing that for a long time.

THOMPSON: But that is basically it. It's scientifically based. It's telling you to lower your calorie intake as it relates to trans fats, all fats. It's telling you to reduce your calorie intake as it relates to carbohydrates. It's also telling you to increase your fruits and vegetables and your whole grains. And basically it's telling you that you have to do it yourself.

BLITZER: Now this is for adults, for children, for everyone.

THOMPSON: Yes, there are 23 recommendations for adults and additional 18 recommendations for special classes of people such as children, individuals, women that are going to be pregnant or are pregnant. But it's basically a scientifically based report that really comes back and refines more and is more looking to how you're going to be able to lead a better healthier, fuller life.

BLITZER: Are there recommendations -- and I have read the summary -- are there recommendations that tell Americans out there, let's start with children...

THOMPSON: OK.

BLITZER: A lot of our viewers are obviously very interested in their children and their grandchildren.

THOMPSON: That is true.

BLITZER: Are there recommendations how these young kids should be eating healthier, having less calories, exercising more? Is there dietary recommendations there?

THOMPSON: The recommendations are there, but as I've indicated, they are not as specific as it relates to exactly what portions you should have. It's based upon an individual and it's based upon having more fruits and vegetables, eating whole grains and not having as much in fats, sugars and salts and trans fats.

BLITZER: What about red meat?

THOMPSON: Red meat, it's telling you to be careful, it's telling you to cook it properly so that you don't have any kind of diseases that emanate from uncooked or red meat. But it's also telling you to increase your diet as it relates to chicken and fish. But it doesn't tell you you should not eat red meat. It's telling you to be selective and to choose from all the groups and be able to not have just one group but all the groups.

BLITZER: So when you say make sure it's cooked properly, avoid the rare, have it a little bit more medium, is that what you're saying, when you're having a steak?

THOMPSON: You can have it medium rare, but you should have it cooked properly.

BLITZER: What about snacks for kids? This is an issue that's come up a lot in recent years.

THOMPSON: There's no question about it. What you should do is you should get these bags of carrots and start eating fruits and vegetables.

BLITZER: But you know, some kids want a bag of Oreos.

THOMPSON: I know it, but you should have carrots instead of the Oreos. That would be much healthier for you.

BLITZER: Do the guidelines, tell parents how to make that work? How to convince kids, you know what? Have the carrots, don't have the Oreos.

THOMPSON: No, you know that it doesn't do that because it's impossible to do that. That's human nature. You put out the information, you want individuals to read the information. We're putting this out for the first time. It's a very simple brochure.

BLITZER: How can our viewers get that?

THOMPSON: You can get it on the web page, www.hhs.gov. And we're going to be sending it out all over America. And this really tells you how to make sure that your family is eating properly and is healthy.

BLITZER: All right, let's talk about adults now. You are recommending that every day adults, in particular, exercise not 10 minutes, not 15 minutes, 20 minutes, but what, an hour? Maybe even 90 minutes? Is that what you're recommending?

THOMPSON: We're recommending that to maintain your current weight, 30 minutes. If you want to -- if you've lost weight and you want to continue to look -- that lost weight to stay off, it should be 60 minutes. If you want to reduce weight, it should be up to 60 to 90 minutes. Now, you don't have to do it all at one time. What I do in the department, you know, we walk up the steps instead of taking the elevator. You get off at the subway at the end of the day one block earlier than you did before and walk home. Walking 30 minutes a day, you can walk around over your lunch hour.

BLITZER: So this doesn't necessarily have to be aggressive exercise.

THOMPSON: No, it does not. Just normal physical exercise will accomplish the objective.

BLITZER: Now walking, even casual walking, for a lot of people that's good enough?

THOMPSON: That is good enough. But it should be a brisk walk and you should walk at least 30 minutes a day.

BLITZER: All right, stand by, Mr. Secretary, because we want to continue this conversation, get into some other important issues, as well. We're going to continue our conversation with Tommy Thompson right after this quick break. I'm Wolf Blitzer and this is the news from CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We're talking with the Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson about creating a healthier nation. New federal diet guidelines have just been released. Here's what I don't understand, Mr. Secretary. For years we've been hearing from the federal government, you know what, eat a little bit less, watch your calories, exercise, eat fruits, eat vegetables, don't eat the bad things, eat the good things, yet the country as a whole seems to be getting fatter and fatter and fatter and less healthier every year if you look at some of the statistics. Why is that so?

THOMPSON: I think it's because we really haven't put the emphasis that we need to as the government. And I think we've done that in the last four years. I know I've been out speaking all over this country and I think we're finally having an impact. You're noticing a lot companies -- a lot of food companies that are putting out healthier foods. Kellogg's is putting out healthier breakfast foods, as well as General Mills. They're putting out -- a lot of companies are putting out foods with no trans fatty acids in them. A lot of companies are putting out advertising that talks about the need for healthy food and exercise.

We're having an impact. Whether or not we're going to reach the tipping point, which we probably have not reached yet, where every American starts asking the tough questions, what is healthy for me? And going into a grocery store and buying healthy foods, I don't think we're there yet. But we're gaining on it and I think you're going to see a much better improvement, as far as health conditions and weight conditions in the near future.

BLITZER: You think over the past four years Americans have not gained as much weight as they... THOMPSON: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying we've got the message out there and that message now is resonating with individuals, and with food companies.

BLITZER: Are you listening to all your guidelines?

THOMPSON: I have put the whole department on a diet. I've lost 15 pounds and I exercise every single morning, as you do. And I notice, though, during the break you told me that you're on your treadmill 60 minutes each and every day and you feel better because of it.

BLITZER: I feel much better as a result of it. I recommend it to all our viewers.

THOMPSON: Everybody should do that. Every morning I get up and I do 60 push-ups as soon as I get out of bed in the morning. That is a way, you know, to start the day. And we walk up the steps, I walk up the steps in the department instead of taking the elevator. So you can do this. You don't have to do the 30 or 60 minutes at one time. You can do it throughout the day in intervals.

BLITZER: You had some controversial comments in early December.

THOMPSON: Yes.

BLITZER: And I want to play those for our viewers and have you explain what you meant. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMPSON: I, for the life of me, cannot understand why the terrorists have not, you know, attacked our food supply, because it is so easy to do. And we're importing a lot of food from the Middle East, and it would be easy to tamper with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, that caused a huge uproar as you well know. What was -- why did you go ahead and say the terrorists have not attacked our food supply and you're surprised by that?

THOMPSON: Well, that was prior to the time that we took over. Before we came in as a new administration, there was no really any investigations with regard to the food supply. Less than one half of one percent of the food was being inspected. Since then and after 9/11, we've been able to pass a food protection law in which we've increased the amount of money from food inspections from $800,000 is all that we were spending, to this past year $150 million.

And secondly, we have now for the first time requiring food companies to register so that we know who is actually producing food. Secondly, those that are going to import food into the United States for the first time have got to register and notify us when they're going to import food so we have pre-knowledge of that importation. And number third, we have for the first time the power under FDA, which we didn't before, before 9/11, have the power to suspend the food coming into America and actually holding it. So these are new things.

BLITZER: We still import a lot of food from the Middle East.

THOMPSON: Yes, we do.

BLITZER: What guarantees are there that this food hasn't been tampered with?

THOMPSON: We're doing a much better job. But I also want to put out when I made that message, a clarion call that bee cannot sit on the status quo. We've got to look forward and we've got to do more inspections. We've got to put better and newer technology so that we can, you know, put a wand over food, have ways that we can detect poisons that are in foods. We need to do this. We need to keep Congress and the administration and everybody else in America vigilant to any kind of adulteration of food, because it is possible, but we're doing a much better job than ever before.

BLITZER: So as you're getting ready to step down, how vulnerable are we right now, specifically the nation's food supply?

THOMPSON: Well, we're much less vulnerable than we were pre- 9/11, and we're getting stronger and better each and every day. In fact, this year we're going to do eight times more inspections in 2005 than we did in 2001. That tells you how much more vigilant, how many more inspections.

But we still have to do more. We have to put more inspectors out there and get better and newer technology in order to detect poisons. And this is something that the department is working on, as well as the Department of Agriculture, and we're making progress. But I don't want anybody to become relaxed, and rely upon the status quo. We've got to continue to move forward.

BLITZER: You've got to look at it every single day. Let's talk a little bit about four years, cabinet secretary here in Washington, after a distinguished career as governor of Wisconsin. Looking back on these four years, what surprised you the most?

THOMPSON: Surprised me the most exactly is how difficult it is to get things passed and get new policies implemented in the city. There's a feeling, you know, that there's a really gotcha mentality, that people want to tear down instead of build up, and I come from a state that likes to build up and accomplish things, and I felt that is somewhat depressing when I came out here. I found how to work with the system much better, and I think we accomplished a great deal.

One of the things, of course, was getting Medicare Modernization Act passed. Secondly, we got people much more notified about good, healthy habits, about exercising, about the obesity question. And third, we're doing a lot of things internationally on AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria. We've done a lot, but you can always do more.

BLITZER: Let me thank you for your public service over these many years in Wisconsin, here in Washington. I know you don't know what you're going to be doing next, but I'm sure you'll be a frequent guest here on CNN.

Mr. Secretary, thank you very much.

THOMPSON: Thank you very much.

BLITZER: Appreciate it.

THOMPSON: We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Thanks very much for joining us this hour on NEWS FROM CNN. I'll be back later today, as I am every week day, 5:00 p.m. Eastern for "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS." Today, among other things, we'll speak with Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz about the Supreme Court's decision on prison-sentencing guidelines. That and much more coming up later today, 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

LIVE FROM with Fredricka Whitfield and Miles O'Brien -- there they are -- standing by to join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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