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Anderson Cooper 360 Degrees
Should Michael Ross Die?; Indonesia Asks U.S. Troops to Move Out by March
Aired January 13, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening from New York. I'm Anderson Cooper.
A serial killer says he wants to die. His lawyer says he should. So why are some fighting hard to keep him alive?
360 starts now.
ANNOUNCER: Live, from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: Good evening.
You're about to hear from a man who wants to die. His name is Michael Ross. He's 45 years old, and he knows something about death. He has confessed to strangling eight women, and has been convicted for six of those murders.
In less than two weeks, on January 26, at precisely 2:00 a.m., Connecticut is planning to kill this man, Michael Ross. It'll be the state's first execution in more than 40 years.
But here's the thing. There's a very unusual battle being waged right now. It pits a lawyer for Ross, who wants him to die, against a former lawyer of his who says he should live.
As always on 360, we're going to hear from all sides tonight. But first we want you to meet Michael Ross, to look him in the eye to hear for yourself why he wants to die, to judge for yourself if he should die.
Here is CNN's Deborah Feyerick.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Convicted killer and rapist Michael Ross says he dreams about how he'll die. Nightmares, really.
MICHAEL ROSS: They would lead me into the execution chamber and sit back in what was the electric chair and strap me in the chair. And then I would float out over the prison and watch the crowd as they counted down my execution, just like it was New Year's Eve -- 10, nine, eight. And the lights would dim, and they would all cheer. And, you know, 30 seconds later, the lights would dim again, and they would all cheer again.
You know, this is a -- I don't know, nightmare of mine that I had.
FEYERICK: He'd hoped to die in the spring, but sees an upside to dying at the end of this month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: The fact that there will be a whole mess of people out there cheering my death is not something I particularly relish, and, you know, if there's three feet of snow out there in this blizzard, then there won't be so many people out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: After two trials, 20 years of mandatory appeals, and little prospect of getting off death row to serve life instead, Ross says it's time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: I don't -- I owe these people. That's another way to put it. I owe them. I killed their daughters, and, you know, if I can stop the pain, then I have to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Ross admitted killing his first victim, a classmate of his, when he was a senior at Cornell University in 1981. Detectives caught him three years later.
Ross confessed to strangling six women in Connecticut, raping most of them. One of his victims, 14-year-old Leslie (ph) Shelley, walking home with her best friend, when Ross stopped to give them a ride.
(on camera): Have you ever thought about what your daughter went through on her way home from an innocent day at movies on that day?
EDWIN SHELLEY, FATHER OF VICTIM: How can you hell not? I mean, how would you feel, being tied up in the back of a car, knowing your friend was being raped and murdered, and then, when he came back, you knew he was going to murder you?
FEYERICK (voice-over): Edwin Shelley, the girl's father, wants Ross dead. Ross knows it. He says so in this four-hour videotaped interview with a court-appointed psychiatrist, Ross quoting the dead girl's father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: "The agony is basically the up and down, the renewal of it, the bringing back of it. You can live with it, adjust to it, but when it's brought back, it's agony. You know, if he wishes to die, let him die," blah, blah. But, I mean, that's the point right there. You know, you can live with it, adjust to it, but when it's brought back up, it's agony. And you can keep that and quote that and put that in your damn report, because I think that's (expletive deleted) important. Sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK.
ROSS: I just don't understand why the public defenders can't understand that. I mean, it's so simple. And it's my damn decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: The public defenders are his former lawyers. Ross is angry and frustrated that they're trying to keep him alive, filing papers saying Ross is incompetent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: I think what makes me so angry is, they know how this is affecting me. And they're doing it anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Ross says he doesn't want to grow old in prison, and that 20 years behind bars is enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: This isn't a great life. And the day they put me back there and kill me, that's not going to be a real sad day for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK (on camera): (audio interrupt) says, if you were handed a piece of paper to sign saying he'd be guaranteed life in prison, he would take it in a heartbeat. Short of that, he wants the appeals to end. He doesn't want to drag it out another 20 years. And he says those fighting against the death penalty should do it on the merits, but not because of him.
Now, of course, he can still change his mind, up until the moment that needle goes into his arm, Anderson.
COOPER: It's a fascinating story. Thanks very much, Deborah.
People who say Ross should die and people who say he should live are using the killer's same taped interview, the one you just saw, to make their case.
Joining me from Hartford is T.R. Paulding, an attorney representing Ross now, who insists his client is competent. Also from Hartford, Gerard Smythe, Connecticut's chief public defender. He was Ross's lawyer for nearly 20 years and says he's incompetent and should -- (audio interrupt)
... appreciate you joining us tonight. Thanks very much for being with us. It's a complicated case for people who have not really been following it. Gerard, you just heard Ross say how angry he is, and how he feels basically betrayed by your office. Why do you hold the position you do?
GERARD SMYTHE, CONNECTICUT CHIEF PUBLIC DEFENDER: Well, we believe we have a professional and an ethical obligation to bring to the court's attention the evidence that we have that Michael Ross is mentally incompetent to waive his appeals.
This man is on four different times -- types of medication. He's attempted suicide three times. The lawyers, the multiple lawyers who have represented him over these 20 years, believe that he shows signs of incompetence. His own father believes he's incompetent.
And the first execution in Connecticut in almost 45 years should not take place if the individual who seeks to volunteer is mentally incompetent (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COOPER: Well, T.R., T.R., you say he is incompetent. You're his attorney now. But what about that? I mean, if he, if he's, you know, on all these different medications, four different medications, attempted suicide three times, and volunteered to be executed in the past, does that sound like a man capable of declaring his own competency?
T.R. PAULDING, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL ROSS: No. More importantly than whether he's declaring his own competency is the findings after testimony from an expert.
You have three competency evaluations since '95. All have found him competent at the superior court level, the most recent within the last couple of weeks. You also have recently a federal judge who just viewed him last week, and made an independent finding that he was competent in his mind as well.
So it isn't -- it's the findings of the experts that find him competent.
COOPER: Gerard, I mean, is your opposition just pretty much based on the fact that you oppose the death penalty altogether?
SMYTHE: No, it's not. And it's true that I do oppose the death penalty personally. But our opposition is based upon Michael Ross's mental condition. The findings of competent by the courts have all been without an adversarial process. No one has been there to cross- examine the court-appointed psychiatrist who evaluated Mr. Ross.
COOPER: Well, what mental condition do you claim he has? I mean, Gerard is saying, or T.R. is saying, you know, he's been cleared.
SMYTHE: He's been diagnosed by the state's own psychiatrist as being clinically depressed. He suffers from anxiety. He's suicidal. He suffers from sexual sadism and other personality disorders...
COOPER: Yes, but, I mean...
SMYTHE: ... which impede his ability to make a clear and rational and free choice.
COOPER: Well, I mean, there are plenty of people who are depressed, there are plenty of people who are suicidal, there are plenty of people who have, you know, bizarre sexual fetishes, even sadistic ones. Why does that make him incompetent?
SMYTHE: Well, because he has to meet a standard. He has to understand the various options that are available to him, but he also has to be unimpeded by a mental disease that interferes with his ability to make a rational choice.
And we have our own experts. We have an expert from Harvard Medical School, and we also have an expert from NYU Medical School, who have evaluated all of the materials concerning Michael Ross. They haven't yet had the opportunity to meet with him. But they now have the tapes for their own assessment. And they are of the opinion that he is mentally incompetent...
COOPER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
SMYTHE: ... to waive his appeals.
COOPER: T.R., I know, I mean, this has got to tough for you. I know, I understand on person note, you don't believe in the death penalty, and you are representing your client and say his wishes should be fulfilled.
PAULDING: Yes, this is a difficult decision to make to come into the case, and I did it because I felt that somebody needed to be the voice for Michael Ross despite whatever my own feelings may be about the death penalty. So, yes, it's kind of a strange situation to be in as a criminal defense lawyer.
COOPER: It's a difficult case. When do you think you're going to get a ruling on this? I mean, is this, right now it's scheduled for the 26th, the execution.
PAULDING: Right, well, both of us were discussing that. We don't know for sure. We may have a decision by the Supreme Court as early as tomorrow. But they haven't really told us when that may be.
SMYTHE: We provided the Supreme Court with a 180-page offer of proof as to what our evidence would be. The defense had the opportunity to respond, and now we're all awaiting a decision.
COOPER: (audio interrupt) you being on the program, thanks very much tonight.
SMYTHE: You're welcome.
PAULDING: Thank you.
COOPER: As always, showing both sides. U.S. (audio interrupt) are still helping tsunami victims in Indonesia, but you can't blame them if they're feeling unwelcome tonight. This week, Indonesian's government said that all international forces should leave Aceh Province by late March. Now, many Americans see that as a slap in the face after all the U.S. has done, and they have done an extraordinary amount in that hard-hit region in particular.
As always, we want to look at all sides, all angles, including Indonesia's explanation.
CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As images like these were beamed back to the United States, Americans opened their hearts and wallets, pledging an unprecedented $350 million, matching the U.S. government pledge dollar for dollar.
Now, one of the hardest-hit countries, Indonesia, is ordering all foreign troops, including the U.S. military, to leave Aceh Province by March 26.
HARRY PURWANTO, DEPUTY CHIEF OF MISSION, INDONESIAN EMBASSY: It is already been decided that that's the dates when all plans would be given to that date.
KOPPEL: The Bush administration says that's news to the U.S.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: The Indonesians are not saying,We don't need the help, go home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But they are.
BOUCHER: They're -- no, they're not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
BOUCHER: They're not saying it to us.
KOPPEL: But that is exactly what Harry Purwanto, one of Indonesia's most senior diplomats in Washington, told CNN.
PURWANTO: After 26th of March, all will be taken care by Indonesians.
KOPPEL: On radio talk shows, reaction was heated.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, January 13, WABC)
RUSH LIMBAUGH: Unders, now, wait, understand who these people are. These a bunch of paranoid religious zealots. And if they think that we started this tsunami by conducting an underground nuclear test with the Israelis, they're then going to assume that we are there to take over the country with the military. It's almost a miracle they're giving us three months to get our military out of there. I had the same reaction you did -- these ingrates!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: But Indonesia insists it is grateful for the outpouring of American aid. The concern, that Indonesian separatists in Aceh Province hardest hit by the tsunami might seize upon the presence of hundreds of foreign troops to help their cause.
(on camera): A senior U.S. official told CNN the U.S. believes the Indonesian government, which only recently took office, may be trying to reassure Indonesians they're still in control, but when push comes to shove, this official said, will allow the U.S. military to stay as long as it needs to to get the job done.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, at the White House today, press spokesman Scott McClellan was asked about the Indonesia situation, but basically deferred the response to the Pentagon.
See, a good spokesman, Republican or Democrat, knows that no matter what the question, just stay on message. Stick to your talking points. In case you missed today's White House briefing, here's a quick look at today's talking points.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Well, let's see, talking point number one, freedom is advancing.
MCCLELLAN: ... advance freedom and democracy...
... advance and support freedom and hope...
... and freedom...
... advance freedom...
... advance freedom...
COOPER: Talking point number two, winning the war on terrorism.
MCCLELLAN: ... win the war on terrorism...
... win the war on terrorism...
... winning the war on terrorism...
... win the war on terrorism...
... winning the global war on terrorism...
COOPER: And talking point number three, well, it's sort of a cosmic one -- everything is continuing. MCCLELLAN: ... continue providing relief, and we'll continue to discuss...
... they continue working closely and...
... we'll continue talking about it...
... continue...
... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) continue...
... we're going to continue...
... we're going to continue...
... continue...
... continue...
... we'll continue to continue...
... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) continue...
... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to continue...
... to continue...
... to continue...
... we will continue...
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And 360 continues.
Police want to know what a Florida man was doing with the makings of ricin. That's just one of the stories we're following right now cross-country.
Take you to Ocala, Florida. This guy, a 22-year-old man, has been arrested and charged with possession of a biological weapon after the FBI found the makings of ricin poison in his home. The man doesn't have any known terror ties to terrorists, but the question tonight is, what was he planning to do with the (audio interrupt) deadly stuff?
Chicago, Illinois, now, broken glass, damaged cars, and a good- size hole in a shopping mall parking lot after a natural gas explosion on the city's southwest side. Ten people hurt. So far, no clue what triggered that explosion.
We take you to Orange County, California, now. The nation's fourth-largest mobile phone company, T-Mobile, says hundreds of cell phone users may have had their voicemail (audio interrupt) other personal information infiltrated by a 21-year-old hacker who calls himself -- well, he's real clever -- Ethics. For more than a year, Ethics, or is that Mr. Ethics, not sure, apparently hacked into T- Mobile's computer network. But no more, he is under arrest.
New York City now, major league baseball players and owners have a deal on a stricter testing program for steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs. Among other things, penalties for first- time offenders and more frequent testing.
Minneapolis, Minnesota, now. Minnesota Vikings wide receiver Randy Moss fined $10,000 by the National Football League for his pretend mooning after scoring a touchdown at last week's playoff win over the Green Bay Packers. There it was. Moss says he was just trying to have fun. The NFL clearly not amused by that.
Look at stories cross-country right now.
360 next, homes torn apart by flooding, twisters touching down, a deep freeze in the Midwest, a winter storm that is on the move. We're tracking it ahead.
Plus, veterans of Iraq, and violence at home. Is the military doing enough to help them? This young Marine, a troubled story. Covering all the angles.
Also tonight, royal bad boy. That's right. The costume that gives Hitler Youth a whole new meaning. Can Buckingham Palace recover from this PR nightmare? And what was Prince Harry thinking?
All that ahead. First, let's take a look at your picks, most popular stories right now on CNN.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Feels like we've been seeing so many of those images the last couple weeks.
You know, for much of this past week, California was sitting under a cloud of rain and snow that killed more than two dozen people. The storm has moved on now, plowing through the center of the country, causing pockets of havoc as well.
CNN's Sara Dorsey reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Think you can find your lawn mower under all that?
SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Homes ripped apart after a sleepless night of damaging storms, possibly even twisters, in Arkansas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is where the trailer sit right here.
DORSEY: Two people are reported dead, 20 hurt. Guy Webb was lucky, but his house didn't fare quite as well.
GUY WEBB, STORM VICTIM: We was laying in bed, and I heard that noise coming, and we started to get up, and about that time, the end of the house blew off, and we rolled off the bed onto the floor.
DORSEY: In Utah, homeowners could only watch as their house is ripped apart by the raging waters of the Santa Clara River. One person is dead as a result of flooding in the state. Homeowners were evacuated early.
It was a slippery-slope maneuvering in Denver, drivers jumping to safety, bolting from their vehicles rather than feel the crash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out the way, get out the way. Come on.
DORSEY: A 22-car mess on a city street, but no serious injuries.
In Michigan yesterday, that wasn't the case. Dense fog and slick roads equaled tragedy. A 200-car pileup blocking all lanes of Interstate 96 in the central part of the state left two people dead. Thirty-seven others had to be hospitalized.
That seems similar to this one in northeast Indiana. One person is dead, seven others injured.
Natural events often with devastating consequences. The good news? Experts say all the extreme weather is not a sign of a bigger global issue.
Sara Dorsey, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: In La Conchita, California, the trouble started when an entire rain-soaked hillside turned into a river of cementlike sludge. The roar, of course, is over, but it turns out the river of sludge is still moving.
Joining me live from La Conchita is David Goldstein, a reporter with KCAL.
David, thanks for being with us.
What's going on now?
DAVID GOLDSTEIN, REPORTER, KCAL: Well, right now, the rescue workers have moved out, because, as you mentioned, the hillside shifted early this morning. It moved about six feet. And at that point, they moved the rescue workers out, because there was -- they were afraid of their safety.
But the bottom line is, officials believe that everyone who has been on the missing list has been accounted for. So because of the shifting hillside there, and the fact that there are -- they don't believe there are any more people inside there, that they've moved the rescue workers out, and they've left, and they're allowing residents to come back in if they want to.
COOPER: Is there any word at this point of, I mean, how much could it move, you know, tomorrow or the next day? I mean, when does this thing stop moving?
GOLDSTEIN: They don't know. They did say officially, that the sheriff told us that he doesn't believe it's safe to live there. But legally, they can't keep the residents out. So residents can come back, unless, of course, their building has been destroyed or red- tagged. But the geologist are keeping their eye on it. It did move that six feet early this morning. They say they do expect it to move again, but they don't believe that there will be any large move there that would endanger people right around the bottom of that hill slide now.
COOPER: It's a gamble. All right, David Goldstein, thanks very much, from KCAL.
We're joined now on the phone by a survivor from that mudslide in La Conchita, the turning of a hillside into a, just a river of sludge. Thick as cement, it was. Ten others did not survive the mudslide.
But Diane Hart, who is still in the hospital right now, is in nearby Santa Barbara. She did.
Diane, we appreciate you being with us.
How are you feeling?
DIANE HART, MUDSLIDE SURVIVOR (on phone): Thank you. I'm feeling good, considering what I have been through.
COOPER: Let's talk about what you've been through. You were actually preparing for another natural disaster, not a mudslide. You were preparing for a tornado. There'd been a tornado warning. You'd sort of set up a little nook in your closet. Then you saw people running, and you realized it wasn't a tornado. You realized the mountain was coming down.
HART: Yes, that's correct. At 6:00 in the morning, there was a tornado warning. And my son Eric called me and said, Mom, prepare a safe place, and get in it right now. So I prepared a coat closet, and threw a bunch of blankets and pillows in it.
And then it was several hours later that I had been out front watching, 101 was closed because of another landslide. And I decided to come back around noon for lunch. And then I did some work on my computer, and decided to take a break, and stood up and turned around to go to my kitchen, and I saw people frantically running down the street, and I knew right away.
I was only about three or four feet from the coat closet, and I made a beeline for it. And I didn't even have time to get all the way in the closet. The whole house started collapsing on me. And it pushed me into the closet. I got to the doorway, and it pushed me all the way in.
COOPER: What does it feel like? I mean, what is, what is it, it, does the sound, you know, overwhelming? Is the, what does it, what does it smell like? HART: Well, I heard the whole house cracking and the wood breaking. And I saw the roof cave in on me. And I -- it pushed me into the closet, into all of those soft pillows and the blankets. And then it pushed me another several yards. And during that time, I thought, This is too big. I can't survive this.
COOPER: And, I mean, is mud everywhere? Or are, I mean, is it, are you, is debris on top of you?
HART: It was mostly my house, the boards and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the roof of my house and the walls.
COOPER: And I guess breathing was tough.
HART: Well, once everything settled and I realized I was alive, I wasn't breathing. And so I had this little air space. I was kind of on my right side in a little -- in an elongated fetal position. And I wasn't breathing, so I remained calm, and I never passed out. I just started slowly getting air in my lungs until I could breathe normally. And then I realized I was alive, and I had survived that part of it.
But I now was buried alive.
COOPER: You're a nurse, and I know you'd had, you suffered injuries. Were you able to tell immediately what was wrong?
HART: Well, it took awhile. The obvious one was my left hand was crushed between two rocks. And I was afraid I was going to lose my left hand, because it went completely numb, and my forearm was completely crushed. And I also felt injuries around my back. So I felt like I had several fractured ribs, and my scapula, which is the wing bone in the right back, that was real painful. So I felt that was broke.
COOPER: Well, we're looking at a picture of you in the hospital. And I know you got a bruised eye, and you're battered, but you are lucky to be alive, and thankfully rescuers...
HART: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: ... got to you. And I know it took some time. But Diane Hart, we appreciate you being with us. Thanks very much. Diane, good luck to you.
HART: Thank you.
COOPER: She lost a lot of her neighbors, a lot of her friends.
Coming up on 360, you're going to hear from Ms. Hart's neighbor, Jimmy Wallet, a man she knows well. He lost his wife, Michelle, and three of his daughters, Hannah, Raven, and Paloma, in the landslide. You'll hear from him directly.
Coming up next on 360, veterans and violence on the home front. Is the military doing enough to help troops, soldiers, Marines, sailors, with the stress of war? We'll look into that.
Also tonight, secret grand jury testimony. Michael Jackson's accuser telling his side of the story in great detail. We'll tell you what he said to the grand jury.
Also a little later, tsunami rescue mission. The Thai navy springs into action to try to save some sea turtles.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It's a story we've been covering all this week. A deadly rampage Sunday in Ceres, California. Security cameras, you see them here, caught this man, 19-year-old Andreas Raya (ph), as he shoots two police officers. He killed one of those officers. He himself would later be killed by police.
Raya, though, was not your typical murderer. Before this bloodbath, he was in many regards a hero, having earned several medals for bravely fighting for his country in Iraq. He was a Marine.
The question is, what happened to him?
As Adaora Udoji reports now, maybe the same thing that happened to other troubled service members. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Californian police say 19-year-old Marine Corporal Andreas Raya ambushed police, wounding one, killing another, then was shot to death.
At Fort Bragg, Master Sergeant William Wright, say North Carolina police, strangled his wife. In Philadelphia, police say Army Specialist Marquise (ph) Roberts asked his cousin to shoot him in the leg to prevent his return to Iraq.
All three men veterans of the war on terror. It's unclear what went wrong, but the violent outbursts raised questions about combat stress.
(on camera): A "New England Journal of Medicine" report estimates that one out of six returning from Iraq suffers from depression, anxiety, or post-traumatic stress disorder.
(voice-over): Some advocates say the government is not doing enough to help.
PAUL REICKHOFF, OPERATION TRUTH: The resources just aren't there. And the important point to understand is, once you send somebody around the world for war, they're never the same when they come back.
UDOJI: Military officials say they understand that. So they offer extensive programs, monitoring the troops at every step. The Army reportedly launched a new initiative, sending more mental health experts to Iraq, and when they return the Department of Veteran Affairs steps in.
FRED GOSMAN, DIR., NATL. CTR. POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER: We have over 168 hospitals and approximately 850 community-based out- patient clinics, and 206 vet centers.
UDOJI: VA officials say the Iraq war is like no other. The troops are older. Many are married. Many in the national guard not expecting long tours of duty. All issues creating new areas of stress. They say they're working to confront the issues, but some say they should work faster. Adaora Udoji, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: The son of a former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher admits to a role in a failed coup plot in Africa. Bizarre story that tops our look in the uplink.
Cape Town, South Africa. Now walking out of court a free man. Part of the plea deal, Mark Thatcher will avoid prison in South Africa after forking over a half a million dollar fine for violating the country's anti-mercenary laws. He says he unwittingly helped bankroll a botched coup plot in oil-rich Equatorial Guinea. He still faces charges there.
We take you to Tehran, Iran now. Nobel Peace Prize winner ordered to appear before the feared Revolutionary Court or face arrest. Shirin Ebadi won the prize in 2003 for her work promoting women and children's rights in Iran. Since then, she has defended many high-profile political dissidents, yet she says she has no idea why the court wants to see her.
Take you to Venice, Italy now. Gondolas left high and dry. Not what you would expect in Italy's famous city canals. Warm weather and unusually low tides mean that only Venice's grand canal is still able to take water traffic. See how long that lasts.
In Thailand, injured sea turtle rescued. A 300-pound turtle had been washed inland by the tsunami. It was found trapped on the pond on a naval base. The turtle is being cared for. Won't go back to sea until its wounds have healed. Quick look at stories around the world in the uplink.
Revealed, what a little boy says Michael Jackson did to him. Tonight, the accuser's secret grand jury testimony, disturbing details about what he said really went on in the bedroom at the Neverland Ranch.
And what was Prince Harry thinking? A Nazi uniform? A Swastika armband? Tonight the prince apologizes, sort of, but the international outrage continues. 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight in Justice Served some stunning new developments in the Michael Jackson case. A detailed account of what Jackson's teenage accuser told the grand jury in his sexual molestation case. According to ABC News which has reviewed the secret transcripts, the boy provided hours of lurid and incredibly disturbing testimony about what Michael Jackson told him and showed him when they were together at Jackson's Neverland Ranch. Now, we should stress the testimony in the documents that we're going to talk about, and we're going to read from, represents just the prosecutor's point of view. The prosecutor's best case against Michael Jackson.
The prosecutor of course would not comment on this report. But Jackson's defense lawyer told CNN tonight, and I quote, "we strongly object to the leak of the grand jury testimony in this case. This grand jury material had been ordered sealed by Judge Melville in open court. The witnesses who testified before the grand jury were never subjected to cross-examination or impeachment by the defense. By law, no judge or defense lawyer was allowed to be present in the grand jury room. Furthermore the defense had no opportunity to call its own witnesses to refute or criticize this one-sided proceeding."
So let's keep that in mind as we read from these documents, as we hear. Also before I read some of this grand jury testimony, I just want to warn you at home, some of the testimony I'm going to read is very graphic. I'm not kidding. It's very graphic. You may want to take little kids out of the room right now.
Joining me are Court TV anchor Lisa Bloom here in New York and from Miami defense attorney Jayne Weintraub. I appreciate both of you being with us.
Lisa, let me start off with you. I'm going to read an excerpt from the grand jury testimony. This is Jackson's accuser, 13 years old at the time of the alleged incident, 14 years old at the time he said this to a jury. I will put it on the screen.
"We were laying on the bed and he told me that men have to masturbate. He told me that he wanted to teach me so we were laying in the bed and then he started rubbing me. He put his hand down my pants and he started rubbing me, my private area. He was masturbating me."
Very, adult words to be using for a child this age. There are some who say this could be coached.
LISA BLOOM, COURT TV ANCHOR: I don't know, 14 years old I think they know the words like masturbate and so on. Also keep in mind this isn't the first time the boy has told the story. By the time he gets to the grand jury, he's told a therapist, he's told his attorney. He's probably told three or more detectives. He's told the story many times. He may have picked up adult words in the context of having those discussion.
COOPER: Jayne, do you think this is coaching?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that's exactly what you it is. And you have to keep it in context. Remember these are not statements that were made spontaneously at the time that these things supposedly happened to the police. These are not even things that spontaneously were told within months of supposedly happening. These are things that are said and stories that are spun, by the time they get to the grand jury, as Lisa just said, after not just going to a lawyer and a therapist, the same lawyer and the same therapist who managed to negotiate a $20 million settlement. Do you think that these professionals know what has to be said? I think so.
COOPER: I want to read something else and I want Lisa to comment on it again. This is from the accuser, 13 years old at the time of the incident, 14 when he is saying this.
This is about the alleged drinking. This is what he allegedly -- he says he told Michael Jackson.
"It wasn't really a good idea for me drinking because I only had one kidney. I only have one kidney and so it harms for I drink that stuff. But he would just say it's OK and he would just keep on telling me to drink."
If this is in front of a jury it's hard to counter.
BLOOM: This is very damaging stuff, Anderson. Because this portrays Michael Jackson as a man who is so selfish that he would do harm to a child by encouraging him to drink so he could get him drunk and some kind of sexual relations with him. This takes him really out of the category that Michael Jackson also wants to present himself in as a great lover of children, as a man who is so charitable and giving towards children. It really creates a malicious character in the minds of the juror.
WEINTRAUB: Which is exactly what they want to do.
COOPER: Jayne, I want to read you another thing. This is from the brother of the accuser. The brother was 12 years old at time of the alleged molestation. He is 13 when he told the grand jury this. He's describing, when Michael Jackson -- they're watching a movie and Michael Jackson comes into the room. He says, quote, "he was nude, he started to tell us it was natural, it's just normal."
Prosecutor says, "could you tell whether or not his penis was erect?"
The accuser's younger brother says, "it was. It was."
Your response to this.
WEINTRAUB: Well, you see that in and of itself doesn't even bother me. He's walking around in his own home. We don't know if he's coming out of a shower and just going into his bedroom to get underwear. We don't know anything.
COOPER: It doesn't bother you that there are children in the room and if it's true that he's walking around naked?
WEINTRAUB: Anderson, hold on, hold on. We have to put in context of what the relationship was. It was almost like a little brother or a son from what I understand. He was surviving at that time, cancer treatment. BLOOM: He's a middle-aged man. He's not a little brother to these boys. That's the pedophile mentality.
WEINTRAUB: But Lisa, we don't know what point of any of it was. We only know the spin here. And it really reminds me of Scott Peterson all over again. Let's show what a demon and monster he is. The fact that there is little evidence of the substance of the charges. That's for a later date.
BLOOM: Get over Scott Peterson because the jury did find him to be a demon and a monster and sentenced him to death. In this case...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: There is no context under law in which an adult man can reach into the pants of a 13-year-old boy and fondle him.
WEINTRAUB: But then that's not what happened here, Lisa.
BLOOM: It doesn't matter what the context is...
WEINTRAUB: You are spinning.
BLOOM: That's unlawful.
WEINTRAUB: You're making it up. He walked into his bedroom nude. Maybe to put on clothes.
BLOOM: I'm not making it up, and, you know what, Anderson, these allegations are so strikingly similar to the 1993 allegations. I read the entire psychiatric interview of that 13-year-old boy. The same kind of grooming, leading up to manual fondling. Leading up to Michael Jackson become naked.
COOPER: You're saying you believe there is a pattern?
BLOOM: Exactly. If you read that psychiatric interview, it's on our website, Courttv.com, the allegations are so strikingly similar. I am convinced the judge will let that in.
COOPER: On that -- the website, there was talk a movie as I remember.
BLOOM: Right, "The Exorcist" in 1993. That was the scary movie that Michael Jackson used according to that kid to get him afraid, to want to share the bed with Michael Jackson. There's a movie about the devil in '03 that Michael Jackson uses in a very similar way. He's got the same M.O. if you believe both of these children.
COOPER: So, Jayne, as a defense attorney...
WEINTRAUB: There's not doubt that he's a weird guy.
COOPER: As a defense attorney, how do you say that to the jury? Do you say he's a weird guy, but... WEINTRAUB: Absolutely. Look, you can't get away from whom Michael Jackson is. When he walks in in a shirt and tie, even respectful of the process, you can't get away from the fact that he is bizarre and that he's unusual. But that doesn't make him a rapist, and that doesn't make him guilty of the crimes charged.
Look at his living. I mean, the Neverland Ranch. What grown adult walks around in an amusement park as his house?
BLOOM: Jayne, the man is not on trial for being bizarre.
WEINTRAUB: I think he is.
BLOOM: Nobody cares about what he looks like. You know, there is concrete evidence in this case. There is pornography in his home. The fingerprint of Michael Jackson.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: And the 13-year-old boy on it. There is alcohol found exactly where the child said the alcohol would be found.
WEINTRAUB: Well, of course, he saw liquor bottles.
BLOOM: The child-sized small Hanes briefs are found in the home exactly where the child said those briefs were going to be found. There is a lot of corroborating evidence, including the eyewitness testimony of his little brother. This is not an open-and-shut case for the defense, Jayne. You have got to concede that.
WEINTRAUB: Lisa, Lisa, I don't see concrete evidence of corroboration at all. The child is in the home. I think there are lots of children who have gone into their parent's home and found some pornography material that wasn't being shared with them. I think that's a very common thing to happen in adult homes who have that kind of material. It's not illegal. That's No. 1.
No. 2, that there was liquor in the house. Most adult's homes have liquor in the house and the child would know where it was. It doesn't mean...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: I think most adults don't give alcohol to a 13-year-old boy who is cancer-stricken and has only one kidney. But bottom line is, he is on trial for molestation, not being just strange or unusual in his character.
COOPER: And the trial...
WEINTRAUB: I think Anderson hit it on the head, it's coached testimony and it looks coached by the words that are used.
BLOOM: Well, we'll see if the jury agrees with that.
COOPER: And I would just point out, I didn't actually say it was coached testimony, I was asking you if you thought it was coached testimony. Just so we're on the record with that.
Good defense attorney, Jayne Weintraub, thanks very much for that.
Lisa Bloom as well, thanks very much.
BLOOM: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah, we don't take sides on this channel, we leave that to others on cable.
Over in England, the trouble with Harry is, well, Harry. The Prince of bad manners has done it again, only this time he's really messed up, and mean royally. He showed up at a party dressed as a Nazi, that's right a Nazi. He had the armband, he had the whole thing.
Harry says he's sorry, didn't mean it, blah, blah, blah. He says he's sorry, kind of, if, you'll see. Boy, it just goes to show you that all of the money in Windsor Castle cannot buy you some common sense, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'll show you the picture dressed as a Nazi in the front page of the Sun newspaper.
COOPER (voice-over): Would his mummy be proud? Young Prince Harry prancing around at a fancy dress party in Nazi regalia, complete with the requisite swastika arm band and captured on the front page of the Sun. His older, but apparently not much wiser Brother William was there too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Offensive, insensitive and shameful.
COOPER: Once again, the not so little prince has the media buzzing on both sides of the pond.
OK. We know he's the spare, not the heir, and he's carrying on what many call a long tradition of bad behavior by royal descendants whose shot at throne is tenuous at best. But at the tender age of 20, Harry's already left behind a litany of bad acts that might show up his great Aunte Margaret. Remember the headlines, Harry, pot head.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's had problems when he smoked dope. He's had scuffles with photographers last year when he got in a fight with the press. He's got a girlfriend in South Africa, a girlfriend whose father has unsavory links to the regime of Robert Mugabe.
COOPER: Not to mention the underaged drinking and accusations by his former teacher, dismissed by the royals, that she helped Harry finish his course work at the Eden College.
His timing couldn't have been much worse. In two weeks, Harry's father, Prince Charles, travels to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. And form any, the sheer lack of sensitivity is stunning, hundreds of thousands of British soldiers died fighting World War II, more than 60,000 citizens were killed. Many of them in London during the Nazi blitz.
Clarence House, home to the prince, issued his statement of apology today. Which said, "I'm very sorry if I caused any offense or embarrassment to anyone. It was a poor choice of costume and I apologize."
COOPER: Did he say if? Obviously, not the shiniest bauble in the crown jewels.
Harry has said he wants to finish his mother, Princess Diana's good works. Maybe it's time for the royal rebel to start by making amends from this monstrous faux pas. This time, Harry, we're not amused.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, coming up next on 360, a grief almost too strong to bare: A man loses his wife and 3 of his kids in a California landslide. You're going to hear his story from him. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, the hardest stories to tell, and there were far too many these in Sri Lanka, are the stories of the single survivor, the one or two people who were spared, if spared is really the right word, of an entire family. We didn't think we would have to tell such a story here at home, not this week, but that was before the mudslide at La Conchita. And the truly appalling losses suffered by this one man. His name is Jamie Wallet. CNN's Eric Philips is standing by live in Ventura to tell us more -- Eric.
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Anderson, this act of nature that killed at least ten people has everyone in this small tight-knit community affected. But the one person, as you just mentioned, that perhaps feels it the most is Jimmie Wallet. That's because he lost perhaps more than anyone else: his wife, and three children. A short time ago, I had a chance to meet with Wallet as recounted the details of what happened during that mudslide on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIMMIE WALLET, WIFE, 3 DAUGHTERS KILLED IN LANDSLIDE: A lot of us just ran our hardest right for it. We didn't care. We wanted to just get our families out. That feeling, just seeing that go straight, you know that you have, your whole family living is -- there's no word for it.
And when it hit, while you're running towards it and it just hit your house where you know that your kids are at with cars, trailer, campers, mud, as quick as turning a faucet on, but the mud's thick, and hitting the house, blowing through the wall and hitting every room and filling up and exploding. People start coming up. And I was just -- everyone's just looking, searching, trying to dig, get shovel, give me some chainsaws, anything, let's go. Yes, the neighborhood was working hard.
I don't know where I will end up. But I know where my daughter wants to be and my thing is I have just got to make her have paradise for the rest of her life. Have her dreams come true.
But there's other people, too, that feel the same pain.
It could have gone faster. They need to readjust their system. Man, those rescue guys, great. I mean, but the ones that touched me most were the inmates that didn't use protocol, didn't use roles that used their gut feeling and heart. And dug till their hands were bleeding.
The women, ah, I hope they get some gift. I told them, man, I would give you my life for what you guys are doing, but I have nothing. I came without my jacket and that's it. My armor.
I went back there yesterday, to dig because they gave me a gift, when the inmates found my family I wanted to give back to anyone if I was digging with my fingernails and that's all. My hands hurt, but nothing of what the pain my family hurt what happened to them.
There's a lot of people out there like me that are left with this. I don't care about me. I think I'll be OK. But they need -- there are support out there. My household fed everyone day and night on that street because a lot of people didn't have money. That place up there is kind of left alone from everything. You learn to deal with it that way. But, man, some people need some help, a lot of help. They don't have nothing. Nothing. Help them out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPS: A very emotional Jimmy Wallet, who stressed several times during that interview that though he lost his wife and three daughters, he's more concerned about others who lost their homes and their loved ones as well. He says he wants to help them. And a lot of people have been asking how they can help? There is a number that we can share with you that you can call if you'd like to help the victims of this mudslide. It's with the Santa Barbara Bank and Trust. That number is 800-320-5353. Again, 800-320-5353. Any donations, once again, will go to help those who lost their homes, and all of their belongings and in this terrible act of nature.
COOPER: Eric Philips, thanks very much. Jimmy Wallet, a man talking from the depths of grief. We'll be right back. And we'll, show you a picture of his wife, Michelle, Hana (ph), Pluma (ph), and Raven, his children, all of whom who are gone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Ah the tango. It's been a night of some very tough news of loss and sorrow, so we thought you would like to spend just a few moments with something lighter. So for a moment, lets talk about love, and the tango. Let's face it, there are just some things that cannot be done alone. There's a new magazine called "Tango." It's dedicating itself to the whole idea of relationships.
CNN's Jeanne Moos has a sneak preview in tonight's "Current."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Whoever said it takes two to tango wasn't launching a magazine.
Well, we're hoping about 100,000 will tango in the first issue.
MOOS: The first issue of a magazine that's about nothing but love and relationships. And you thought the girls in "Sex and the City" were obsessive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to think that people have more than one soul mate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would agree, I have hundreds.
MOOS: That's a lot of tangoing. You'd think with magazines like "Cosmo" featuring articles like "His Butt: What Your Guy's Bum Shape Reveals About His Personality," well, is there room for a magazine devoted to nothing but relationships?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What sex is to men, relationships are to women.
MOOS: And we know that guys are "Maxim'ed" out on sex stuff. So women get the hunky plummer from "Desperate Housewives" on "Tango's" first cover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow!
MOOS: "Tango" works the relationship angle into everything, even testing hair conditioners on couples.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They tried their old conditioner. They tried their new conditioner.
MOOS: They do it in the shower most of them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they do it in the shower.
MOOS: As for the name, a psychotherapist dreamed it up, figuring dance is a good metaphor for relationships. With niche magazines ranging from "Splat" to paint-ballers, to "Modern Drunkard" for drinkers, well, a relationship only magazine was just a matter of time and there will be a quiz.
(on camera): Test your infidelity I.Q. I was testing my infidelity I.Q.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how did it turn out?
MOOS (voice-over): None of your business. Acceptable or unacceptable? Having private e-mail relationships of a flirtatious nature. Tangoing with a stranger, that's unacceptable. Everyone from the Addams Family to Al Pacino tangos.
AL PACINO, ACTOR: No mistake in the tango, not like life.
MOOS: Not like the magazine business. Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Got to learn how to tango. 360 next, wait until you hear some of the names that kids are getting these days, Yahoo! We're going to talk about that in "The Nth Degree." Stay with us. [
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight take new names to "The Nth Degree." Bound to happen of course, a Romanian man and women who met in cyberspace, have named their first child after one of his grandfathers and the Internet portal that brought them together. I'm not kidding. Welcome to the world, Lucy and Yahoo! Dragaman (ph), this of course is only the beginning. Here's a play ground of the future. And the future bear in mind could be tomorrow or Monday. Needless to say, you've got a bunch of toddlers named Google, boys and girls alike, Google being gender neutral. As also is that other very popular name to come, I- Pod. This little I-Pod's a guy, this ones a girl. And then to correct a mistaken the impression, Dubya here was not name in honor of George Bush. No, Dubya is actually short for Dubya Dubya Dubya, nor is Dot short for Dorothy, of course, not anymore. It's short for Dotcom. And Maggie may have be a form of Margaret way back when, but Meggie with an E isn't, as little Megahertz herself will tell you.
It's all right, though, all names were new and strange once. Think of the stunned silence in the cave when Ugh and Trunk first proudly told the clan they decided to call the kid Alister.
I'm Anderson Cooper. Good night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 13, 2005 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST: Good evening from New York. I'm Anderson Cooper.
A serial killer says he wants to die. His lawyer says he should. So why are some fighting hard to keep him alive?
360 starts now.
ANNOUNCER: Live, from the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is ANDERSON COOPER 360.
COOPER: Good evening.
You're about to hear from a man who wants to die. His name is Michael Ross. He's 45 years old, and he knows something about death. He has confessed to strangling eight women, and has been convicted for six of those murders.
In less than two weeks, on January 26, at precisely 2:00 a.m., Connecticut is planning to kill this man, Michael Ross. It'll be the state's first execution in more than 40 years.
But here's the thing. There's a very unusual battle being waged right now. It pits a lawyer for Ross, who wants him to die, against a former lawyer of his who says he should live.
As always on 360, we're going to hear from all sides tonight. But first we want you to meet Michael Ross, to look him in the eye to hear for yourself why he wants to die, to judge for yourself if he should die.
Here is CNN's Deborah Feyerick.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Convicted killer and rapist Michael Ross says he dreams about how he'll die. Nightmares, really.
MICHAEL ROSS: They would lead me into the execution chamber and sit back in what was the electric chair and strap me in the chair. And then I would float out over the prison and watch the crowd as they counted down my execution, just like it was New Year's Eve -- 10, nine, eight. And the lights would dim, and they would all cheer. And, you know, 30 seconds later, the lights would dim again, and they would all cheer again.
You know, this is a -- I don't know, nightmare of mine that I had.
FEYERICK: He'd hoped to die in the spring, but sees an upside to dying at the end of this month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: The fact that there will be a whole mess of people out there cheering my death is not something I particularly relish, and, you know, if there's three feet of snow out there in this blizzard, then there won't be so many people out there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: After two trials, 20 years of mandatory appeals, and little prospect of getting off death row to serve life instead, Ross says it's time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: I don't -- I owe these people. That's another way to put it. I owe them. I killed their daughters, and, you know, if I can stop the pain, then I have to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Ross admitted killing his first victim, a classmate of his, when he was a senior at Cornell University in 1981. Detectives caught him three years later.
Ross confessed to strangling six women in Connecticut, raping most of them. One of his victims, 14-year-old Leslie (ph) Shelley, walking home with her best friend, when Ross stopped to give them a ride.
(on camera): Have you ever thought about what your daughter went through on her way home from an innocent day at movies on that day?
EDWIN SHELLEY, FATHER OF VICTIM: How can you hell not? I mean, how would you feel, being tied up in the back of a car, knowing your friend was being raped and murdered, and then, when he came back, you knew he was going to murder you?
FEYERICK (voice-over): Edwin Shelley, the girl's father, wants Ross dead. Ross knows it. He says so in this four-hour videotaped interview with a court-appointed psychiatrist, Ross quoting the dead girl's father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: "The agony is basically the up and down, the renewal of it, the bringing back of it. You can live with it, adjust to it, but when it's brought back, it's agony. You know, if he wishes to die, let him die," blah, blah. But, I mean, that's the point right there. You know, you can live with it, adjust to it, but when it's brought back up, it's agony. And you can keep that and quote that and put that in your damn report, because I think that's (expletive deleted) important. Sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's OK.
ROSS: I just don't understand why the public defenders can't understand that. I mean, it's so simple. And it's my damn decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: The public defenders are his former lawyers. Ross is angry and frustrated that they're trying to keep him alive, filing papers saying Ross is incompetent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: I think what makes me so angry is, they know how this is affecting me. And they're doing it anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Ross says he doesn't want to grow old in prison, and that 20 years behind bars is enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: This isn't a great life. And the day they put me back there and kill me, that's not going to be a real sad day for me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK (on camera): (audio interrupt) says, if you were handed a piece of paper to sign saying he'd be guaranteed life in prison, he would take it in a heartbeat. Short of that, he wants the appeals to end. He doesn't want to drag it out another 20 years. And he says those fighting against the death penalty should do it on the merits, but not because of him.
Now, of course, he can still change his mind, up until the moment that needle goes into his arm, Anderson.
COOPER: It's a fascinating story. Thanks very much, Deborah.
People who say Ross should die and people who say he should live are using the killer's same taped interview, the one you just saw, to make their case.
Joining me from Hartford is T.R. Paulding, an attorney representing Ross now, who insists his client is competent. Also from Hartford, Gerard Smythe, Connecticut's chief public defender. He was Ross's lawyer for nearly 20 years and says he's incompetent and should -- (audio interrupt)
... appreciate you joining us tonight. Thanks very much for being with us. It's a complicated case for people who have not really been following it. Gerard, you just heard Ross say how angry he is, and how he feels basically betrayed by your office. Why do you hold the position you do?
GERARD SMYTHE, CONNECTICUT CHIEF PUBLIC DEFENDER: Well, we believe we have a professional and an ethical obligation to bring to the court's attention the evidence that we have that Michael Ross is mentally incompetent to waive his appeals.
This man is on four different times -- types of medication. He's attempted suicide three times. The lawyers, the multiple lawyers who have represented him over these 20 years, believe that he shows signs of incompetence. His own father believes he's incompetent.
And the first execution in Connecticut in almost 45 years should not take place if the individual who seeks to volunteer is mentally incompetent (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COOPER: Well, T.R., T.R., you say he is incompetent. You're his attorney now. But what about that? I mean, if he, if he's, you know, on all these different medications, four different medications, attempted suicide three times, and volunteered to be executed in the past, does that sound like a man capable of declaring his own competency?
T.R. PAULDING, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL ROSS: No. More importantly than whether he's declaring his own competency is the findings after testimony from an expert.
You have three competency evaluations since '95. All have found him competent at the superior court level, the most recent within the last couple of weeks. You also have recently a federal judge who just viewed him last week, and made an independent finding that he was competent in his mind as well.
So it isn't -- it's the findings of the experts that find him competent.
COOPER: Gerard, I mean, is your opposition just pretty much based on the fact that you oppose the death penalty altogether?
SMYTHE: No, it's not. And it's true that I do oppose the death penalty personally. But our opposition is based upon Michael Ross's mental condition. The findings of competent by the courts have all been without an adversarial process. No one has been there to cross- examine the court-appointed psychiatrist who evaluated Mr. Ross.
COOPER: Well, what mental condition do you claim he has? I mean, Gerard is saying, or T.R. is saying, you know, he's been cleared.
SMYTHE: He's been diagnosed by the state's own psychiatrist as being clinically depressed. He suffers from anxiety. He's suicidal. He suffers from sexual sadism and other personality disorders...
COOPER: Yes, but, I mean...
SMYTHE: ... which impede his ability to make a clear and rational and free choice.
COOPER: Well, I mean, there are plenty of people who are depressed, there are plenty of people who are suicidal, there are plenty of people who have, you know, bizarre sexual fetishes, even sadistic ones. Why does that make him incompetent?
SMYTHE: Well, because he has to meet a standard. He has to understand the various options that are available to him, but he also has to be unimpeded by a mental disease that interferes with his ability to make a rational choice.
And we have our own experts. We have an expert from Harvard Medical School, and we also have an expert from NYU Medical School, who have evaluated all of the materials concerning Michael Ross. They haven't yet had the opportunity to meet with him. But they now have the tapes for their own assessment. And they are of the opinion that he is mentally incompetent...
COOPER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
SMYTHE: ... to waive his appeals.
COOPER: T.R., I know, I mean, this has got to tough for you. I know, I understand on person note, you don't believe in the death penalty, and you are representing your client and say his wishes should be fulfilled.
PAULDING: Yes, this is a difficult decision to make to come into the case, and I did it because I felt that somebody needed to be the voice for Michael Ross despite whatever my own feelings may be about the death penalty. So, yes, it's kind of a strange situation to be in as a criminal defense lawyer.
COOPER: It's a difficult case. When do you think you're going to get a ruling on this? I mean, is this, right now it's scheduled for the 26th, the execution.
PAULDING: Right, well, both of us were discussing that. We don't know for sure. We may have a decision by the Supreme Court as early as tomorrow. But they haven't really told us when that may be.
SMYTHE: We provided the Supreme Court with a 180-page offer of proof as to what our evidence would be. The defense had the opportunity to respond, and now we're all awaiting a decision.
COOPER: (audio interrupt) you being on the program, thanks very much tonight.
SMYTHE: You're welcome.
PAULDING: Thank you.
COOPER: As always, showing both sides. U.S. (audio interrupt) are still helping tsunami victims in Indonesia, but you can't blame them if they're feeling unwelcome tonight. This week, Indonesian's government said that all international forces should leave Aceh Province by late March. Now, many Americans see that as a slap in the face after all the U.S. has done, and they have done an extraordinary amount in that hard-hit region in particular.
As always, we want to look at all sides, all angles, including Indonesia's explanation.
CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As images like these were beamed back to the United States, Americans opened their hearts and wallets, pledging an unprecedented $350 million, matching the U.S. government pledge dollar for dollar.
Now, one of the hardest-hit countries, Indonesia, is ordering all foreign troops, including the U.S. military, to leave Aceh Province by March 26.
HARRY PURWANTO, DEPUTY CHIEF OF MISSION, INDONESIAN EMBASSY: It is already been decided that that's the dates when all plans would be given to that date.
KOPPEL: The Bush administration says that's news to the U.S.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: The Indonesians are not saying,We don't need the help, go home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But they are.
BOUCHER: They're -- no, they're not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
BOUCHER: They're not saying it to us.
KOPPEL: But that is exactly what Harry Purwanto, one of Indonesia's most senior diplomats in Washington, told CNN.
PURWANTO: After 26th of March, all will be taken care by Indonesians.
KOPPEL: On radio talk shows, reaction was heated.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, January 13, WABC)
RUSH LIMBAUGH: Unders, now, wait, understand who these people are. These a bunch of paranoid religious zealots. And if they think that we started this tsunami by conducting an underground nuclear test with the Israelis, they're then going to assume that we are there to take over the country with the military. It's almost a miracle they're giving us three months to get our military out of there. I had the same reaction you did -- these ingrates!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: But Indonesia insists it is grateful for the outpouring of American aid. The concern, that Indonesian separatists in Aceh Province hardest hit by the tsunami might seize upon the presence of hundreds of foreign troops to help their cause.
(on camera): A senior U.S. official told CNN the U.S. believes the Indonesian government, which only recently took office, may be trying to reassure Indonesians they're still in control, but when push comes to shove, this official said, will allow the U.S. military to stay as long as it needs to to get the job done.
Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, at the White House today, press spokesman Scott McClellan was asked about the Indonesia situation, but basically deferred the response to the Pentagon.
See, a good spokesman, Republican or Democrat, knows that no matter what the question, just stay on message. Stick to your talking points. In case you missed today's White House briefing, here's a quick look at today's talking points.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Well, let's see, talking point number one, freedom is advancing.
MCCLELLAN: ... advance freedom and democracy...
... advance and support freedom and hope...
... and freedom...
... advance freedom...
... advance freedom...
COOPER: Talking point number two, winning the war on terrorism.
MCCLELLAN: ... win the war on terrorism...
... win the war on terrorism...
... winning the war on terrorism...
... win the war on terrorism...
... winning the global war on terrorism...
COOPER: And talking point number three, well, it's sort of a cosmic one -- everything is continuing. MCCLELLAN: ... continue providing relief, and we'll continue to discuss...
... they continue working closely and...
... we'll continue talking about it...
... continue...
... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) continue...
... we're going to continue...
... we're going to continue...
... continue...
... continue...
... we'll continue to continue...
... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) continue...
... (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to continue...
... to continue...
... to continue...
... we will continue...
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: And 360 continues.
Police want to know what a Florida man was doing with the makings of ricin. That's just one of the stories we're following right now cross-country.
Take you to Ocala, Florida. This guy, a 22-year-old man, has been arrested and charged with possession of a biological weapon after the FBI found the makings of ricin poison in his home. The man doesn't have any known terror ties to terrorists, but the question tonight is, what was he planning to do with the (audio interrupt) deadly stuff?
Chicago, Illinois, now, broken glass, damaged cars, and a good- size hole in a shopping mall parking lot after a natural gas explosion on the city's southwest side. Ten people hurt. So far, no clue what triggered that explosion.
We take you to Orange County, California, now. The nation's fourth-largest mobile phone company, T-Mobile, says hundreds of cell phone users may have had their voicemail (audio interrupt) other personal information infiltrated by a 21-year-old hacker who calls himself -- well, he's real clever -- Ethics. For more than a year, Ethics, or is that Mr. Ethics, not sure, apparently hacked into T- Mobile's computer network. But no more, he is under arrest.
New York City now, major league baseball players and owners have a deal on a stricter testing program for steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs. Among other things, penalties for first- time offenders and more frequent testing.
Minneapolis, Minnesota, now. Minnesota Vikings wide receiver Randy Moss fined $10,000 by the National Football League for his pretend mooning after scoring a touchdown at last week's playoff win over the Green Bay Packers. There it was. Moss says he was just trying to have fun. The NFL clearly not amused by that.
Look at stories cross-country right now.
360 next, homes torn apart by flooding, twisters touching down, a deep freeze in the Midwest, a winter storm that is on the move. We're tracking it ahead.
Plus, veterans of Iraq, and violence at home. Is the military doing enough to help them? This young Marine, a troubled story. Covering all the angles.
Also tonight, royal bad boy. That's right. The costume that gives Hitler Youth a whole new meaning. Can Buckingham Palace recover from this PR nightmare? And what was Prince Harry thinking?
All that ahead. First, let's take a look at your picks, most popular stories right now on CNN.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Feels like we've been seeing so many of those images the last couple weeks.
You know, for much of this past week, California was sitting under a cloud of rain and snow that killed more than two dozen people. The storm has moved on now, plowing through the center of the country, causing pockets of havoc as well.
CNN's Sara Dorsey reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Think you can find your lawn mower under all that?
SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Homes ripped apart after a sleepless night of damaging storms, possibly even twisters, in Arkansas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is where the trailer sit right here.
DORSEY: Two people are reported dead, 20 hurt. Guy Webb was lucky, but his house didn't fare quite as well.
GUY WEBB, STORM VICTIM: We was laying in bed, and I heard that noise coming, and we started to get up, and about that time, the end of the house blew off, and we rolled off the bed onto the floor.
DORSEY: In Utah, homeowners could only watch as their house is ripped apart by the raging waters of the Santa Clara River. One person is dead as a result of flooding in the state. Homeowners were evacuated early.
It was a slippery-slope maneuvering in Denver, drivers jumping to safety, bolting from their vehicles rather than feel the crash.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out the way, get out the way. Come on.
DORSEY: A 22-car mess on a city street, but no serious injuries.
In Michigan yesterday, that wasn't the case. Dense fog and slick roads equaled tragedy. A 200-car pileup blocking all lanes of Interstate 96 in the central part of the state left two people dead. Thirty-seven others had to be hospitalized.
That seems similar to this one in northeast Indiana. One person is dead, seven others injured.
Natural events often with devastating consequences. The good news? Experts say all the extreme weather is not a sign of a bigger global issue.
Sara Dorsey, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: In La Conchita, California, the trouble started when an entire rain-soaked hillside turned into a river of cementlike sludge. The roar, of course, is over, but it turns out the river of sludge is still moving.
Joining me live from La Conchita is David Goldstein, a reporter with KCAL.
David, thanks for being with us.
What's going on now?
DAVID GOLDSTEIN, REPORTER, KCAL: Well, right now, the rescue workers have moved out, because, as you mentioned, the hillside shifted early this morning. It moved about six feet. And at that point, they moved the rescue workers out, because there was -- they were afraid of their safety.
But the bottom line is, officials believe that everyone who has been on the missing list has been accounted for. So because of the shifting hillside there, and the fact that there are -- they don't believe there are any more people inside there, that they've moved the rescue workers out, and they've left, and they're allowing residents to come back in if they want to.
COOPER: Is there any word at this point of, I mean, how much could it move, you know, tomorrow or the next day? I mean, when does this thing stop moving?
GOLDSTEIN: They don't know. They did say officially, that the sheriff told us that he doesn't believe it's safe to live there. But legally, they can't keep the residents out. So residents can come back, unless, of course, their building has been destroyed or red- tagged. But the geologist are keeping their eye on it. It did move that six feet early this morning. They say they do expect it to move again, but they don't believe that there will be any large move there that would endanger people right around the bottom of that hill slide now.
COOPER: It's a gamble. All right, David Goldstein, thanks very much, from KCAL.
We're joined now on the phone by a survivor from that mudslide in La Conchita, the turning of a hillside into a, just a river of sludge. Thick as cement, it was. Ten others did not survive the mudslide.
But Diane Hart, who is still in the hospital right now, is in nearby Santa Barbara. She did.
Diane, we appreciate you being with us.
How are you feeling?
DIANE HART, MUDSLIDE SURVIVOR (on phone): Thank you. I'm feeling good, considering what I have been through.
COOPER: Let's talk about what you've been through. You were actually preparing for another natural disaster, not a mudslide. You were preparing for a tornado. There'd been a tornado warning. You'd sort of set up a little nook in your closet. Then you saw people running, and you realized it wasn't a tornado. You realized the mountain was coming down.
HART: Yes, that's correct. At 6:00 in the morning, there was a tornado warning. And my son Eric called me and said, Mom, prepare a safe place, and get in it right now. So I prepared a coat closet, and threw a bunch of blankets and pillows in it.
And then it was several hours later that I had been out front watching, 101 was closed because of another landslide. And I decided to come back around noon for lunch. And then I did some work on my computer, and decided to take a break, and stood up and turned around to go to my kitchen, and I saw people frantically running down the street, and I knew right away.
I was only about three or four feet from the coat closet, and I made a beeline for it. And I didn't even have time to get all the way in the closet. The whole house started collapsing on me. And it pushed me into the closet. I got to the doorway, and it pushed me all the way in.
COOPER: What does it feel like? I mean, what is, what is it, it, does the sound, you know, overwhelming? Is the, what does it, what does it smell like? HART: Well, I heard the whole house cracking and the wood breaking. And I saw the roof cave in on me. And I -- it pushed me into the closet, into all of those soft pillows and the blankets. And then it pushed me another several yards. And during that time, I thought, This is too big. I can't survive this.
COOPER: And, I mean, is mud everywhere? Or are, I mean, is it, are you, is debris on top of you?
HART: It was mostly my house, the boards and the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the roof of my house and the walls.
COOPER: And I guess breathing was tough.
HART: Well, once everything settled and I realized I was alive, I wasn't breathing. And so I had this little air space. I was kind of on my right side in a little -- in an elongated fetal position. And I wasn't breathing, so I remained calm, and I never passed out. I just started slowly getting air in my lungs until I could breathe normally. And then I realized I was alive, and I had survived that part of it.
But I now was buried alive.
COOPER: You're a nurse, and I know you'd had, you suffered injuries. Were you able to tell immediately what was wrong?
HART: Well, it took awhile. The obvious one was my left hand was crushed between two rocks. And I was afraid I was going to lose my left hand, because it went completely numb, and my forearm was completely crushed. And I also felt injuries around my back. So I felt like I had several fractured ribs, and my scapula, which is the wing bone in the right back, that was real painful. So I felt that was broke.
COOPER: Well, we're looking at a picture of you in the hospital. And I know you got a bruised eye, and you're battered, but you are lucky to be alive, and thankfully rescuers...
HART: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: ... got to you. And I know it took some time. But Diane Hart, we appreciate you being with us. Thanks very much. Diane, good luck to you.
HART: Thank you.
COOPER: She lost a lot of her neighbors, a lot of her friends.
Coming up on 360, you're going to hear from Ms. Hart's neighbor, Jimmy Wallet, a man she knows well. He lost his wife, Michelle, and three of his daughters, Hannah, Raven, and Paloma, in the landslide. You'll hear from him directly.
Coming up next on 360, veterans and violence on the home front. Is the military doing enough to help troops, soldiers, Marines, sailors, with the stress of war? We'll look into that.
Also tonight, secret grand jury testimony. Michael Jackson's accuser telling his side of the story in great detail. We'll tell you what he said to the grand jury.
Also a little later, tsunami rescue mission. The Thai navy springs into action to try to save some sea turtles.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: It's a story we've been covering all this week. A deadly rampage Sunday in Ceres, California. Security cameras, you see them here, caught this man, 19-year-old Andreas Raya (ph), as he shoots two police officers. He killed one of those officers. He himself would later be killed by police.
Raya, though, was not your typical murderer. Before this bloodbath, he was in many regards a hero, having earned several medals for bravely fighting for his country in Iraq. He was a Marine.
The question is, what happened to him?
As Adaora Udoji reports now, maybe the same thing that happened to other troubled service members. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Californian police say 19-year-old Marine Corporal Andreas Raya ambushed police, wounding one, killing another, then was shot to death.
At Fort Bragg, Master Sergeant William Wright, say North Carolina police, strangled his wife. In Philadelphia, police say Army Specialist Marquise (ph) Roberts asked his cousin to shoot him in the leg to prevent his return to Iraq.
All three men veterans of the war on terror. It's unclear what went wrong, but the violent outbursts raised questions about combat stress.
(on camera): A "New England Journal of Medicine" report estimates that one out of six returning from Iraq suffers from depression, anxiety, or post-traumatic stress disorder.
(voice-over): Some advocates say the government is not doing enough to help.
PAUL REICKHOFF, OPERATION TRUTH: The resources just aren't there. And the important point to understand is, once you send somebody around the world for war, they're never the same when they come back.
UDOJI: Military officials say they understand that. So they offer extensive programs, monitoring the troops at every step. The Army reportedly launched a new initiative, sending more mental health experts to Iraq, and when they return the Department of Veteran Affairs steps in.
FRED GOSMAN, DIR., NATL. CTR. POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER: We have over 168 hospitals and approximately 850 community-based out- patient clinics, and 206 vet centers.
UDOJI: VA officials say the Iraq war is like no other. The troops are older. Many are married. Many in the national guard not expecting long tours of duty. All issues creating new areas of stress. They say they're working to confront the issues, but some say they should work faster. Adaora Udoji, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: The son of a former British prime minister Margaret Thatcher admits to a role in a failed coup plot in Africa. Bizarre story that tops our look in the uplink.
Cape Town, South Africa. Now walking out of court a free man. Part of the plea deal, Mark Thatcher will avoid prison in South Africa after forking over a half a million dollar fine for violating the country's anti-mercenary laws. He says he unwittingly helped bankroll a botched coup plot in oil-rich Equatorial Guinea. He still faces charges there.
We take you to Tehran, Iran now. Nobel Peace Prize winner ordered to appear before the feared Revolutionary Court or face arrest. Shirin Ebadi won the prize in 2003 for her work promoting women and children's rights in Iran. Since then, she has defended many high-profile political dissidents, yet she says she has no idea why the court wants to see her.
Take you to Venice, Italy now. Gondolas left high and dry. Not what you would expect in Italy's famous city canals. Warm weather and unusually low tides mean that only Venice's grand canal is still able to take water traffic. See how long that lasts.
In Thailand, injured sea turtle rescued. A 300-pound turtle had been washed inland by the tsunami. It was found trapped on the pond on a naval base. The turtle is being cared for. Won't go back to sea until its wounds have healed. Quick look at stories around the world in the uplink.
Revealed, what a little boy says Michael Jackson did to him. Tonight, the accuser's secret grand jury testimony, disturbing details about what he said really went on in the bedroom at the Neverland Ranch.
And what was Prince Harry thinking? A Nazi uniform? A Swastika armband? Tonight the prince apologizes, sort of, but the international outrage continues. 360 continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight in Justice Served some stunning new developments in the Michael Jackson case. A detailed account of what Jackson's teenage accuser told the grand jury in his sexual molestation case. According to ABC News which has reviewed the secret transcripts, the boy provided hours of lurid and incredibly disturbing testimony about what Michael Jackson told him and showed him when they were together at Jackson's Neverland Ranch. Now, we should stress the testimony in the documents that we're going to talk about, and we're going to read from, represents just the prosecutor's point of view. The prosecutor's best case against Michael Jackson.
The prosecutor of course would not comment on this report. But Jackson's defense lawyer told CNN tonight, and I quote, "we strongly object to the leak of the grand jury testimony in this case. This grand jury material had been ordered sealed by Judge Melville in open court. The witnesses who testified before the grand jury were never subjected to cross-examination or impeachment by the defense. By law, no judge or defense lawyer was allowed to be present in the grand jury room. Furthermore the defense had no opportunity to call its own witnesses to refute or criticize this one-sided proceeding."
So let's keep that in mind as we read from these documents, as we hear. Also before I read some of this grand jury testimony, I just want to warn you at home, some of the testimony I'm going to read is very graphic. I'm not kidding. It's very graphic. You may want to take little kids out of the room right now.
Joining me are Court TV anchor Lisa Bloom here in New York and from Miami defense attorney Jayne Weintraub. I appreciate both of you being with us.
Lisa, let me start off with you. I'm going to read an excerpt from the grand jury testimony. This is Jackson's accuser, 13 years old at the time of the alleged incident, 14 years old at the time he said this to a jury. I will put it on the screen.
"We were laying on the bed and he told me that men have to masturbate. He told me that he wanted to teach me so we were laying in the bed and then he started rubbing me. He put his hand down my pants and he started rubbing me, my private area. He was masturbating me."
Very, adult words to be using for a child this age. There are some who say this could be coached.
LISA BLOOM, COURT TV ANCHOR: I don't know, 14 years old I think they know the words like masturbate and so on. Also keep in mind this isn't the first time the boy has told the story. By the time he gets to the grand jury, he's told a therapist, he's told his attorney. He's probably told three or more detectives. He's told the story many times. He may have picked up adult words in the context of having those discussion.
COOPER: Jayne, do you think this is coaching?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that's exactly what you it is. And you have to keep it in context. Remember these are not statements that were made spontaneously at the time that these things supposedly happened to the police. These are not even things that spontaneously were told within months of supposedly happening. These are things that are said and stories that are spun, by the time they get to the grand jury, as Lisa just said, after not just going to a lawyer and a therapist, the same lawyer and the same therapist who managed to negotiate a $20 million settlement. Do you think that these professionals know what has to be said? I think so.
COOPER: I want to read something else and I want Lisa to comment on it again. This is from the accuser, 13 years old at the time of the incident, 14 when he is saying this.
This is about the alleged drinking. This is what he allegedly -- he says he told Michael Jackson.
"It wasn't really a good idea for me drinking because I only had one kidney. I only have one kidney and so it harms for I drink that stuff. But he would just say it's OK and he would just keep on telling me to drink."
If this is in front of a jury it's hard to counter.
BLOOM: This is very damaging stuff, Anderson. Because this portrays Michael Jackson as a man who is so selfish that he would do harm to a child by encouraging him to drink so he could get him drunk and some kind of sexual relations with him. This takes him really out of the category that Michael Jackson also wants to present himself in as a great lover of children, as a man who is so charitable and giving towards children. It really creates a malicious character in the minds of the juror.
WEINTRAUB: Which is exactly what they want to do.
COOPER: Jayne, I want to read you another thing. This is from the brother of the accuser. The brother was 12 years old at time of the alleged molestation. He is 13 when he told the grand jury this. He's describing, when Michael Jackson -- they're watching a movie and Michael Jackson comes into the room. He says, quote, "he was nude, he started to tell us it was natural, it's just normal."
Prosecutor says, "could you tell whether or not his penis was erect?"
The accuser's younger brother says, "it was. It was."
Your response to this.
WEINTRAUB: Well, you see that in and of itself doesn't even bother me. He's walking around in his own home. We don't know if he's coming out of a shower and just going into his bedroom to get underwear. We don't know anything.
COOPER: It doesn't bother you that there are children in the room and if it's true that he's walking around naked?
WEINTRAUB: Anderson, hold on, hold on. We have to put in context of what the relationship was. It was almost like a little brother or a son from what I understand. He was surviving at that time, cancer treatment. BLOOM: He's a middle-aged man. He's not a little brother to these boys. That's the pedophile mentality.
WEINTRAUB: But Lisa, we don't know what point of any of it was. We only know the spin here. And it really reminds me of Scott Peterson all over again. Let's show what a demon and monster he is. The fact that there is little evidence of the substance of the charges. That's for a later date.
BLOOM: Get over Scott Peterson because the jury did find him to be a demon and a monster and sentenced him to death. In this case...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: There is no context under law in which an adult man can reach into the pants of a 13-year-old boy and fondle him.
WEINTRAUB: But then that's not what happened here, Lisa.
BLOOM: It doesn't matter what the context is...
WEINTRAUB: You are spinning.
BLOOM: That's unlawful.
WEINTRAUB: You're making it up. He walked into his bedroom nude. Maybe to put on clothes.
BLOOM: I'm not making it up, and, you know what, Anderson, these allegations are so strikingly similar to the 1993 allegations. I read the entire psychiatric interview of that 13-year-old boy. The same kind of grooming, leading up to manual fondling. Leading up to Michael Jackson become naked.
COOPER: You're saying you believe there is a pattern?
BLOOM: Exactly. If you read that psychiatric interview, it's on our website, Courttv.com, the allegations are so strikingly similar. I am convinced the judge will let that in.
COOPER: On that -- the website, there was talk a movie as I remember.
BLOOM: Right, "The Exorcist" in 1993. That was the scary movie that Michael Jackson used according to that kid to get him afraid, to want to share the bed with Michael Jackson. There's a movie about the devil in '03 that Michael Jackson uses in a very similar way. He's got the same M.O. if you believe both of these children.
COOPER: So, Jayne, as a defense attorney...
WEINTRAUB: There's not doubt that he's a weird guy.
COOPER: As a defense attorney, how do you say that to the jury? Do you say he's a weird guy, but... WEINTRAUB: Absolutely. Look, you can't get away from whom Michael Jackson is. When he walks in in a shirt and tie, even respectful of the process, you can't get away from the fact that he is bizarre and that he's unusual. But that doesn't make him a rapist, and that doesn't make him guilty of the crimes charged.
Look at his living. I mean, the Neverland Ranch. What grown adult walks around in an amusement park as his house?
BLOOM: Jayne, the man is not on trial for being bizarre.
WEINTRAUB: I think he is.
BLOOM: Nobody cares about what he looks like. You know, there is concrete evidence in this case. There is pornography in his home. The fingerprint of Michael Jackson.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: And the 13-year-old boy on it. There is alcohol found exactly where the child said the alcohol would be found.
WEINTRAUB: Well, of course, he saw liquor bottles.
BLOOM: The child-sized small Hanes briefs are found in the home exactly where the child said those briefs were going to be found. There is a lot of corroborating evidence, including the eyewitness testimony of his little brother. This is not an open-and-shut case for the defense, Jayne. You have got to concede that.
WEINTRAUB: Lisa, Lisa, I don't see concrete evidence of corroboration at all. The child is in the home. I think there are lots of children who have gone into their parent's home and found some pornography material that wasn't being shared with them. I think that's a very common thing to happen in adult homes who have that kind of material. It's not illegal. That's No. 1.
No. 2, that there was liquor in the house. Most adult's homes have liquor in the house and the child would know where it was. It doesn't mean...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: I think most adults don't give alcohol to a 13-year-old boy who is cancer-stricken and has only one kidney. But bottom line is, he is on trial for molestation, not being just strange or unusual in his character.
COOPER: And the trial...
WEINTRAUB: I think Anderson hit it on the head, it's coached testimony and it looks coached by the words that are used.
BLOOM: Well, we'll see if the jury agrees with that.
COOPER: And I would just point out, I didn't actually say it was coached testimony, I was asking you if you thought it was coached testimony. Just so we're on the record with that.
Good defense attorney, Jayne Weintraub, thanks very much for that.
Lisa Bloom as well, thanks very much.
BLOOM: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah, we don't take sides on this channel, we leave that to others on cable.
Over in England, the trouble with Harry is, well, Harry. The Prince of bad manners has done it again, only this time he's really messed up, and mean royally. He showed up at a party dressed as a Nazi, that's right a Nazi. He had the armband, he had the whole thing.
Harry says he's sorry, didn't mean it, blah, blah, blah. He says he's sorry, kind of, if, you'll see. Boy, it just goes to show you that all of the money in Windsor Castle cannot buy you some common sense, take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'll show you the picture dressed as a Nazi in the front page of the Sun newspaper.
COOPER (voice-over): Would his mummy be proud? Young Prince Harry prancing around at a fancy dress party in Nazi regalia, complete with the requisite swastika arm band and captured on the front page of the Sun. His older, but apparently not much wiser Brother William was there too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Offensive, insensitive and shameful.
COOPER: Once again, the not so little prince has the media buzzing on both sides of the pond.
OK. We know he's the spare, not the heir, and he's carrying on what many call a long tradition of bad behavior by royal descendants whose shot at throne is tenuous at best. But at the tender age of 20, Harry's already left behind a litany of bad acts that might show up his great Aunte Margaret. Remember the headlines, Harry, pot head.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's had problems when he smoked dope. He's had scuffles with photographers last year when he got in a fight with the press. He's got a girlfriend in South Africa, a girlfriend whose father has unsavory links to the regime of Robert Mugabe.
COOPER: Not to mention the underaged drinking and accusations by his former teacher, dismissed by the royals, that she helped Harry finish his course work at the Eden College.
His timing couldn't have been much worse. In two weeks, Harry's father, Prince Charles, travels to mark the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. And form any, the sheer lack of sensitivity is stunning, hundreds of thousands of British soldiers died fighting World War II, more than 60,000 citizens were killed. Many of them in London during the Nazi blitz.
Clarence House, home to the prince, issued his statement of apology today. Which said, "I'm very sorry if I caused any offense or embarrassment to anyone. It was a poor choice of costume and I apologize."
COOPER: Did he say if? Obviously, not the shiniest bauble in the crown jewels.
Harry has said he wants to finish his mother, Princess Diana's good works. Maybe it's time for the royal rebel to start by making amends from this monstrous faux pas. This time, Harry, we're not amused.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, coming up next on 360, a grief almost too strong to bare: A man loses his wife and 3 of his kids in a California landslide. You're going to hear his story from him. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, the hardest stories to tell, and there were far too many these in Sri Lanka, are the stories of the single survivor, the one or two people who were spared, if spared is really the right word, of an entire family. We didn't think we would have to tell such a story here at home, not this week, but that was before the mudslide at La Conchita. And the truly appalling losses suffered by this one man. His name is Jamie Wallet. CNN's Eric Philips is standing by live in Ventura to tell us more -- Eric.
ERIC PHILIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Anderson, this act of nature that killed at least ten people has everyone in this small tight-knit community affected. But the one person, as you just mentioned, that perhaps feels it the most is Jimmie Wallet. That's because he lost perhaps more than anyone else: his wife, and three children. A short time ago, I had a chance to meet with Wallet as recounted the details of what happened during that mudslide on Monday.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIMMIE WALLET, WIFE, 3 DAUGHTERS KILLED IN LANDSLIDE: A lot of us just ran our hardest right for it. We didn't care. We wanted to just get our families out. That feeling, just seeing that go straight, you know that you have, your whole family living is -- there's no word for it.
And when it hit, while you're running towards it and it just hit your house where you know that your kids are at with cars, trailer, campers, mud, as quick as turning a faucet on, but the mud's thick, and hitting the house, blowing through the wall and hitting every room and filling up and exploding. People start coming up. And I was just -- everyone's just looking, searching, trying to dig, get shovel, give me some chainsaws, anything, let's go. Yes, the neighborhood was working hard.
I don't know where I will end up. But I know where my daughter wants to be and my thing is I have just got to make her have paradise for the rest of her life. Have her dreams come true.
But there's other people, too, that feel the same pain.
It could have gone faster. They need to readjust their system. Man, those rescue guys, great. I mean, but the ones that touched me most were the inmates that didn't use protocol, didn't use roles that used their gut feeling and heart. And dug till their hands were bleeding.
The women, ah, I hope they get some gift. I told them, man, I would give you my life for what you guys are doing, but I have nothing. I came without my jacket and that's it. My armor.
I went back there yesterday, to dig because they gave me a gift, when the inmates found my family I wanted to give back to anyone if I was digging with my fingernails and that's all. My hands hurt, but nothing of what the pain my family hurt what happened to them.
There's a lot of people out there like me that are left with this. I don't care about me. I think I'll be OK. But they need -- there are support out there. My household fed everyone day and night on that street because a lot of people didn't have money. That place up there is kind of left alone from everything. You learn to deal with it that way. But, man, some people need some help, a lot of help. They don't have nothing. Nothing. Help them out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PHILIPS: A very emotional Jimmy Wallet, who stressed several times during that interview that though he lost his wife and three daughters, he's more concerned about others who lost their homes and their loved ones as well. He says he wants to help them. And a lot of people have been asking how they can help? There is a number that we can share with you that you can call if you'd like to help the victims of this mudslide. It's with the Santa Barbara Bank and Trust. That number is 800-320-5353. Again, 800-320-5353. Any donations, once again, will go to help those who lost their homes, and all of their belongings and in this terrible act of nature.
COOPER: Eric Philips, thanks very much. Jimmy Wallet, a man talking from the depths of grief. We'll be right back. And we'll, show you a picture of his wife, Michelle, Hana (ph), Pluma (ph), and Raven, his children, all of whom who are gone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Ah the tango. It's been a night of some very tough news of loss and sorrow, so we thought you would like to spend just a few moments with something lighter. So for a moment, lets talk about love, and the tango. Let's face it, there are just some things that cannot be done alone. There's a new magazine called "Tango." It's dedicating itself to the whole idea of relationships.
CNN's Jeanne Moos has a sneak preview in tonight's "Current."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Whoever said it takes two to tango wasn't launching a magazine.
Well, we're hoping about 100,000 will tango in the first issue.
MOOS: The first issue of a magazine that's about nothing but love and relationships. And you thought the girls in "Sex and the City" were obsessive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to think that people have more than one soul mate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would agree, I have hundreds.
MOOS: That's a lot of tangoing. You'd think with magazines like "Cosmo" featuring articles like "His Butt: What Your Guy's Bum Shape Reveals About His Personality," well, is there room for a magazine devoted to nothing but relationships?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What sex is to men, relationships are to women.
MOOS: And we know that guys are "Maxim'ed" out on sex stuff. So women get the hunky plummer from "Desperate Housewives" on "Tango's" first cover.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow!
MOOS: "Tango" works the relationship angle into everything, even testing hair conditioners on couples.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They tried their old conditioner. They tried their new conditioner.
MOOS: They do it in the shower most of them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, they do it in the shower.
MOOS: As for the name, a psychotherapist dreamed it up, figuring dance is a good metaphor for relationships. With niche magazines ranging from "Splat" to paint-ballers, to "Modern Drunkard" for drinkers, well, a relationship only magazine was just a matter of time and there will be a quiz.
(on camera): Test your infidelity I.Q. I was testing my infidelity I.Q.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And how did it turn out?
MOOS (voice-over): None of your business. Acceptable or unacceptable? Having private e-mail relationships of a flirtatious nature. Tangoing with a stranger, that's unacceptable. Everyone from the Addams Family to Al Pacino tangos.
AL PACINO, ACTOR: No mistake in the tango, not like life.
MOOS: Not like the magazine business. Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Got to learn how to tango. 360 next, wait until you hear some of the names that kids are getting these days, Yahoo! We're going to talk about that in "The Nth Degree." Stay with us. [
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Tonight take new names to "The Nth Degree." Bound to happen of course, a Romanian man and women who met in cyberspace, have named their first child after one of his grandfathers and the Internet portal that brought them together. I'm not kidding. Welcome to the world, Lucy and Yahoo! Dragaman (ph), this of course is only the beginning. Here's a play ground of the future. And the future bear in mind could be tomorrow or Monday. Needless to say, you've got a bunch of toddlers named Google, boys and girls alike, Google being gender neutral. As also is that other very popular name to come, I- Pod. This little I-Pod's a guy, this ones a girl. And then to correct a mistaken the impression, Dubya here was not name in honor of George Bush. No, Dubya is actually short for Dubya Dubya Dubya, nor is Dot short for Dorothy, of course, not anymore. It's short for Dotcom. And Maggie may have be a form of Margaret way back when, but Meggie with an E isn't, as little Megahertz herself will tell you.
It's all right, though, all names were new and strange once. Think of the stunned silence in the cave when Ugh and Trunk first proudly told the clan they decided to call the kid Alister.
I'm Anderson Cooper. Good night.
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