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CNN Larry King Live

Interview With Colin Powell; Panel Discusses Prince Harry; Interview With Joan Rivers

Aired January 13, 2005 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, a conversation with Secretary of State Colin Powell, now in his final days in office, on the Iraq elections, tsunami relief and more.
And then, Prince Harry, third in line for the throne of England, photographed wearing a Nazi soldier's uniform, complete with swastika, at a costume party. What was he thinking? We'll go live to London for the latest on this international scandal.

Plus, Joan Rivers, the most outrageous mouth on the red carpet is also friends with Prince Charles. We'll ask her about Prince Harry's latest royal uproar, and about her own new multimillion dollar deal. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

It's a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE an old friend, Colin Powell, United States secretary of state, his final days in that office. What's it like to be leaving?

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, Larry, you know, all things come to an end. I'm very pleased and privileged to have served this president and serve the American people for another four years, bringing it to almost 40 years of government service, and I'm very satisfied with what we've been able to do here in the State Department, working with great men and women who serve the nation so proudly and so well. I'm very pleased at so many accomplishments that we've had in foreign policy over the last several years, whether it's increasing development assistance, or what we've done in HIV/AIDS, or our relationship with Russia and China, expansion of NATO. So many other things I could touch on. But new doors are always opening. So I look forward to what opportunities are out there for me.

KING: Do you envision a public life again?

POWELL: I can always envision public life, not necessarily in government, but I expect that I'll be doing something in public life, and we'll just have to wait and see what that's going to be, Larry.

KING: All right, let's touch some bases. You were quoted as saying that in all your career, in all the things you've seen, war and otherwise, nothing was like the tsunami. Could you elaborate?

POWELL: Nothing was like the tsunami, because flying over the city of Banda Aceh in northern Sumatra looked like flying over a place that has just been hit by a nuclear weapon. Completely flattened. More than just flattened, scraped clean down to bare earth. Trees, grass, houses, cars, boats, schools. And above all, thousands of people who have simply drowned in their homes, or picked up, taken out to sea, drowned and then tossed back onto the beach, to be pulled up into the debris fields. It was something like I had never seen before, but I had studied, when I was a young officer studying how to use nuclear weapons, this is what you expected to see from a nuclear weapon.

KING: Wow.

POWELL: And also, in other places, like Sri Lanka, considerable damage that I saw along the coast and in the town of Galle in the south part of Sri Lanka.

So this was an incredible event, affecting some 11 or 12 countries, over thousands of miles, over a couple of continents, and I think what is also impressive is the level of the international response, a tremendous outpouring of support from both governments around the world and private citizens throughout the world.

KING: How long is it going to take? A long time?

POWELL: It's going to take years. And each country is a little different. India is fine. It can handle its own needs. It had a significant loss of life, but it has the resources to deal with it. Thailand will need a little bit of help, but for the most part, it can deal with its problem. It's going to be in Indonesia, and especially up north in Banda Aceh, and Sri Lanka that will need the most international help. And then there are other nations that will need some help. The Maldives and the Seychelles, perhaps a little bit in Somalia and Kenya and a few other places. But it's going to take time to rebuild these communities, and to rebuild these lives. Just imagine the trauma: 156,000 people wiped off the face of the Earth in a matter of minutes, and all of those families and all of those individuals who are suffering through the trauma of losing their children and their other family members in such a quick and brutal manner.

KING: Let's touch some other bases. Are you concerned over the Iraqi elections?

POWELL: Well, we want to see the elections take place as scheduled, on the 30th of January. We need this. The Iraqi people need this. The Iraqi interim government wants it. The U.N. wants it. The international community wants it, and certainly the United States wants it. Why? Because it's time for the Iraqi people to go to the polls and make a judgment as to what kind of leadership they want to see in the future, and to get out of an appointed leadership or leadership that is there on the basis of a U.N. resolution.

This will be their government, and when it becomes their government then they have a vested interest in it, and I think that will help us with the insurgency.

But the insurgency will only be defeated on the ground by military force, police force, but also the political force that comes with a free election where people now know they are defending their own government against these insurgents.

KING: We are no longer looking for weapons of mass destruction. We haven't found any. The latest poll said 50 percent of the people said it was a mistake. Do you ever think to yourself, maybe we shouldn't have gone?

POWELL: No, I think that when I see the Iraqi people getting up every day, putting themselves at risk by being in the police or by being in the military or just by being a government officials, and willing to take that risk because they know they've gotten rid of a tyrant, they've gotten rid of a terrible regime, and they now have an opportunity to build a democracy, we're the ones who created that opportunity for them. And we've got to stick with them and not second guess.

Now the issue of weapons of mass destruction is one that we really have to look into. Why did the intelligence community get it wrong? And it was a judgment with respect to stockpiles of these weapons, not the fact that Saddam Hussein had the intention of having and the capability of having them and never answered the questions put to him by the international community about these programs.

All of that has held up, that was correct. And where we went wrong and where the international intelligence community went wrong is believing that there was still stockpiles of such weapons. We haven't found them. They're not there. And we've got to take a second look at why we thought they were there.

KING: Mahmoud Abbas is the new president of the Palestinian people, I think -- do they call it the president or do they call it chairman?

POWELL: He's the president of the Palestinian Authority.

KING: He's already said he wants to observe all the security agreements and he wants to get together with the Israelis, yet today we have two Palestinian militants and two Israeli soldiers killed in a suicide bombing. And you once told me that of all the dilemmas you've dealt with in your life, this is the biggest. Are you encouraged?

POWELL: I'm encouraged that Chairman Arafat is no longer there, as an obstacle or excuse for people to point to. I'm encouraged in that the Palestinian people have in an open, free, fair election and with the assistance of the Israelis to make it happen, let it happen, have elected a new president in President Abu Mazen.

He's a good man. We know him well. But he knows and we know and the Israelis know that the Palestinians have to come together now and stand behind their president and insist on a reform government, an honest government that has a solid security apparatus that will go after these terrorists.

It's going to be another tragedy if people who conduct these acts, who shoot mortars out of Gaza, or try to get bombs into Israel from the West Bank, are allowed to continue to destroy the peace process and deny the Palestinian people their opportunity to have a state of their own.

Prime Minister Sharon is ready to pull out of the settlements in Gaza and some settlements in West Bank, get back into the road map, start working for peace. He needs a partner for peace. And that's prime minister -- now President Abu Mazen.

And Abu Mazen knows that he has to bring the Palestinian people along. The intifada did not accomplish a single thing for the Palestinian people toward their goal of a state of their own.

So it has to end. And all of these organizations and individuals and terrorists who continue to kill Israelis or to create conditions of instability are not doing their people a favor. They're denying their people their dream.

KING: A couple of other quick things. When and how does the Condoleezza Rice takeover take place? She has to be confirmed?

POWELL: She will have her hearing before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the 18th and I expect that will go swimmingly. There is a back-up day on the 19th. And then I would expect that on the 20th after the president is inaugurated, if they follow the practice that existed at the time of the first inauguration, the Senate will go into a session to confirm the president's standing nomination.

And I assume Condi will be somebody who has gone through the committee process and is standing before the Senate for confirmation -- her nomination is. And then once the Senate confirms her and perhaps others later that afternoon, after the parade, all the documentation will have been finished and the president can go ahead and appoint her.

And as soon as he had appointed her and she has taken the oath of office, she will the secretary of state and I will not.

KING: Will your stuff have been moved out already?

POWELL: Oh, yes. The office will be ready for her on the 20th.

KING: What are you going to miss the most?

POWELL: People. Same thing I've always missed the most whenever I stepped down from one of my military assignments, the privilege of leading and working with people who are so dedicated to this nation and do such a great job for us. For 35 and a half years of my public career, they were in uniform, and we called them GIs. And for the last four years, we've called them diplomats, we've called them foreign service officers, civil servants. They go by many names. Foreign service nationals. But they have the same thing in common with those individuals in uniform that I served with. And that is they're courageous, they are out in the frontlines of freedom, they're representing the interests of the American people so well, they're representing our values system to hundreds of missions around the world, to almost 200 countries that we have representation in, and I am so proud to have been given the opportunity to lead this great group of Americans.

KING: And finally, another book coming?

POWELL: Perhaps in due course. Not right away. I think I want to turn my attention into different directions. I don't know what I'll be doing yet, Larry, but a number of opportunities are out there. But I am going to let some time pass before I decide whether or not I'm going to write another book.

KING: We'll be seeing you along the trail. Lots of you.

POWELL: Thanks, Larry.

KING: Colin Powell, the United States secretary of state. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Another royal fiasco. Joining us in London, Robert Lacey, the best selling author and royal biographer.

Patrick Jephson, the former private secretary to Princess Diana, he knew Prince Harry as a young boy.

Dickie Arbiter, the former press secretary to the queen and former spokesman for Buckingham Palace.

And Ned Temko, editor in chief of "The Jewish Chronicle."

Lets start with Dickie Arbiter.

What do you make of this?

What's with this Nazi uniform and Harry?

DICKIE ARBITER, FORMER ROYAL PRESS SECRETARY: Well, what indeed is this Nazi uniform and Harry. The paper that is coming out on Friday is showing a completely different picture of what he might well have gone into, a different type of uniform. It's just a very serious error of judgment. If I can show you that picture, it looks like that, and that is an SS officer's uniform, which he didn't wear. The lady who owns the fancy dress shop said that all her uniforms were too small and the one he wore was the only one he could get into. A very, very serious error of judgment.

KING: Robert Lacey, what do you make of this?

ROBERT LACEY, ROYALS BIOGRAPHER: I quite agree. It was a terrible stupid error of judgment, and I'm very glad he's apologized for it. Having said that, though, I feel the outrage -- I can't share totally the outrage over making a terribly silly mistake, a kid of 20, thoughtless mistake. We live in a very confusing culture. I mean, the current hit in the west end of London here, is a show called "The Producers," (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from America hasn't. Every night hundreds of people are gathering in theater, pay lots of money to see Nazi uniforms being paraded about and people laugh at this. Yes, Harry has made a terrible mistake, but I feel that by concentrating on him, we're rather missing the point in all sorts of ways.

KING: Ned Temko, as editor in chief of "The Jewish Chronicle," does it go beyond that for you?

NED TEMKO, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE JEWISH CHRONICLE": Yes, I would split the difference between Dickie and Robert Lacey's views. I don't think this is a life or death issue that's going to change the western world, but I do think it's deeply offensive. And I think perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this isn't that Harry set out to offend everyone, but that he just seemed oblivious to the whole notion of historical context and what a swastika means. And indeed, even in their formal apology which was prompt and very explicit, it's interesting that it implies the problem was almost a fashion lapse. He apologizes for bad choice of costume, as if the problem is a tie that doesn't go with a shirt or the wrong color. And I think those here, and it's not just in the Jewish community, some political leaders who suggested maybe it would be good for him personally to go into slightly greater detail about his regrets, are concerned on that issue and that aspect of it. It's not just hostility or insensitivity, it's just total obliviousness.

KING: Or maybe going with his father in two weeks with the anniversary of Auschwitz. Patrick Jephson -- Patrick Jephson do you think, hey, he's only 20?

PATRICK JEPHSON, FORMER PRIVATE SECRETARY TO PRINCESS DIANA: Yes, he's only 20. Nevertheless, this is not an ordinary 20-year-old. And whether he likes it or not, the sad truth is, if he makes a mistake of this magnitude, then he's going to get caned for it. And I think that the professionals who are paid to advise him and the rest of his family are now, if they have any sense, moving into the damage repair mode. And I think that damage repair begins with a much better apology than has been given so far. Most people must, I think, appreciate that that apology was rushed out in a hurry. It would have been drafted by a royal aid, and it was rather conditional. It says "If offense was caused." Well, there's no doubt huge offense has been caused. And if the damage is going to put right, I think it would be good for Harry, certainly good for the royal family if it begins with a much better apology, preferably a personal one.

KING: Ned, were you going to say you agree that he should go to the Auschwitz event with his father?

TEMKO: I think that's one possibility. I think that won't happen because the Auschwitz event is a solemn, already carefully planned event to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the camp. And I think the concern, it's an understandable concern, is that to overshadow a solemn ceremony with a media circus about what Harry says and when is probably not the best time to do it, quite frankly.

KING: We'll take a break and be right back with Robert Lacey, Patrick Jephson, Ned Temko. Joan Rivers with us later, don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SARAH FERGUSON, DUCHESS OF YORK: Harry said in a statement it was a poor choice of costume and I apologize. Now the thing is, he's apologized, so I believe a lot of Jewish organizations in Britain have accepted his apology. And I hope that the world accepts his apology, because you know, he deserves a break really.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Dickie Arbiter, did somebody rat him out? I mean, it was a party he went to, right? How did this get in the news?

ARBITER: Well, it was a party he went to, it was a private party at a friend of his. It was organized by the friend's father, Richard Leed (ph), who's been in and out of royal circles at one stage In The early '70s. He was linked to Princess Anne in a possible marriage there, but it never happened.

It was a private party. And, you know, we sell telephones in this country, mobile phones, the majority of which have cameras. And that's how the photograph was taken. On it went to a national newspaper. And lo and behold it was published in the national newspaper.

KING: Now Robert Lacey, William was at that party. Do you think someone must have went over to him and said what are you doing?

LACEY: Apparently not. In the stories appearing in the press today, we're being told that Harry and William and another friend called Guy Pelley, who was previously involved in Prince Harry's drug scandal, went to a second hand fancy dress shop and spent quite a lot of time browsing the racks.

And as Dickie said, apparently they looked over, or the Prince Harry looked over SS uniforms as well, and this was the only one that could fit him.

There is this big question that seems implied by what you're asking, or perhaps a smaller question in the bigger context of the horrors that he is sort of making light of. But William has come out of this so far totally unscathed. He hasn't been blamed for this. And you might say, why did he not say the word? The other question is, why was there nobody in the whole entourage who could see the terrible mistake that Harry was making?

KING: Ned Tempko, you call all of this mind boggling. Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wisenthal here in Los Angeles, said that it's inexcusable and he should visit Auschwitz by himself to appreciate the holocaust. Sara Ferguson, on the other hand, said give him a break. Are you in the middle there too?

TEMPKO: I'm not in the -- I think the important thing is what is learned from this. I don't think harry is going to change overnight. He's clearly a 20-year-old kid. I don't excuse what he's done on the basis of kind of callow youth, because I think he's a 20-year-old who has spent about 17 or 18 years of that in on-the-job training for being a royal, so he should know better.

But I think the important thing, particularly with these important anniversaries of the liberation of concentration camps coming up, is to use this as an impetus for education, for the notion of learning from what happened in the second World War, in the holocaust. And I think education is probably more important, and maybe too late for Harry, but certainly it's a reminder that with survivors and even their immediate families dwindling in number, people Harry's age have to have some sense of history and context.

KING: Patrick Jephson, is there anything else the British royalty or British government can do?

JEPHSON: Well, I think we all accept young men make mistakes. The important thing for this young man now, is he should redeem himself from this mistake and show that he's learned from it. I think if he steps up and shows inside there is a real prince there who is prepared to admit his mistakes and redeem himself through a sustained period of low-key good royal work, then he will find that people are remarkably forgiving.

KING: Do you think it's going to blow over, Dickie?

ARBITER: I think it will eventually blow over, but what is not going to blow over is the photograph. It is there now in all glorious technicolor, if I can put it that way. And it will come back to haunt him forever and a day. That photograph is never going to go away.

And when something happens, something that he does wrong, the photograph will reappear, and people will be reminded of what happened at that party.

He's going to have to live with that photograph for his days. When he does go into the army, I wouldn't be surprised at some stage if they draw a comparison of what he looks like in a British Army uniform and what he looked like at that party.

KING: Imagine if, Dickie, if he had had a Gestapo uniform that fit him.

ARBITER: Well, it beggars belief, doesn't it, that he could have even contemplated looking at that particular uniform. This one, if you look at it, is slightly lower key. It is offensive.

You know, if you or I had put something like that on, we might have got away with it at a private fancy dress party, but when you're a member of the royal family, you cannot get it away. They represents the royal family, the royal family represent U.K. Incorporated, and they cannot go around doing things like that.

KING: We'll take a break, come back, include some of your phone calls. Joan Rivers will join us later. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We'll include your phone calls in just a moment. Robert Lacey, do you think that Prince Charles will have to say something?

LACEY: No, I don't think so. From what we hear, Prince Charles is resolutely resisting at the moment the pressure on Harry and on the palace for a second apology. We were just talking here, during the break, about the fact that Prince Charles and Camilla went to see "The Producers" at one of the early productions. Now, how is Mel Brooks making fun of Nazis acceptable, apparently, and Prince Harry in this stupid gesture, not? I don't know what the answer is. There's quite complex moral issues here. One way of dealing with ghastly things like the Holocaust and the ghastly aspects of human behavior is to laugh. I'm not suggesting here that Harry made some sort of sophisticated response, but I think the big debate going on here is very fruitful. But is goes beyond -- I suppose what I am protesting against is the politics of outrage. Outrage is so easy and makes everybody feel better. There are big issues here that need to be looked at and thought about.

KING: Patrick, Mel Brooks is a comedian. Charlie Chaplin did a great movie called "The Great Dictator" making fun of Hitler. He was doing satire. If Harry was doing this as satire, it didn't come off. Patrick, do you buy the comparison?

JEPHSON: I don't buy the comparison. I think "The Producers" is a sophisticated piece of satire. And what's more, it's inspired by Jews in order to, I think, to underline the outrage that any reasonable person would feel about the Nazi regime. This, I fear, was done by Harry as a completely misconstrued joke. I think we will all think more of him. In the long run, he'll think more of himself if he deals with it in a courageous and I'd say royal fashion right now by making sure that this apology sticks. And the signs are that it's not sticking.

KING: Let's go to San Diego. Hello.

CALLER: Hello. I don't understand why everyone is still up in arms about this. With due respect to everybody, he was at a costume party. He was just wearing a costume. I think everyone is blowing it out of proportion, and we really should give the poor kid a break.

KING: Ned, do you want to comment? It's just a costume.

TEMKO: It's just a costume but this guy is a -- one has some sympathy for Harry in the sense that he's not a free agent, but if you're third in line to the British throne, and as Dickie puts it, a representative of U.K. Incorporated, of Britain domestically and overseas you can't simply dress up in a Nazi uniform and accept there will be no repercussions. I think it's an issue of context, timing. This isn't just an ordinary kid going briefly off the rails. This is a member of the royal family, and certainly in the context of this, when you, you know -- it does slightly boggle the imagination that at no stage during, I guess, looking in a mirror and adjusting his swastika, it didn't occur to him or anybody around him that this probably is wrong.

KING: Redondo Beach, California, hello.

CALLER: Hi. What was the theme of Prince Harry's costume party?

KING: Was there a theme to the party, Dickie?

ARBITER: Yes, it was a strange theme of colonials and natives. I leave you to scratch your head and wonder what on earth that means. Harry went as this Africa (UNINTELLIGIBLE) soldier. What we must not get into here is this Jewishness of this. You've got to remember that during the Second World War in concentration camps, hundreds of thousands of people of different nationalities were also killed. Six million Jews and hundreds of thousands, in fact, millions of people of other nationalities. So it's not just an offense to the Jewish community it's also an offense to other nationalities who lost people. And where they get this theme for colonials and natives from, I don't know. William went in a sort of leopard skin outfit. That I suppose comes closest to native if you're looking at Africa but it's a very silly title and it's open to abuse.

KING: What do you make of it, Robert Lacey, that kind of party?

LACEY: Well, it is apparently young people, a very fashionable sort of party, it's known as a bad taste party where all rules are off.

KING: Boy, did that succeed.

LACEY: Thank God we're laughing about this at the end. He clearly won the price there for the most ghastly thoughtlessness and bad taste. Again, it is a sort of popular culture wear. I quite agree, he's not Mel Brooks. He's not Charlie Chaplin. It's a popular culture if you like, it's ordinary people's way of laughing at this sort of terrible black reality that Nazism represented which Dickie rightly said is not just a matter of anti-Semitism, but antihumanity.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more and then Joan Rivers. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Patrick Jephson, it's ironic, isn't it, that both William and Harry were praised for the work they were doing in tsunami relief?

JEPHSON: And quite properly they were praised. The important point about those pictures and others which show Harry and his brother doing what we hope royal people are supposed to do, is that they are canceled out by these other images. And I think that the important conclusion that Harry and his minders need to draw from it is that if Harry does not have the instinct to make the right decision, as it seems his brother did in this case, then that instinct has to be, if need be, taught to him by some pretty sharp methods, and hopefully this can be turned into an opportunity for him to learn from his mistake. I think that in the long run, Harry's long-term success or failure as a member of the ruling family is going to be determined by how well he does the day-to-day mundane stuff. It's only when he builds up a sustained record of that that people will begin to believe he has the instinct to do the job properly. KING: Muskegon, Michigan, hello. Are you there? Muskegon? Apparently not there. Ned, how long do you think this is going to play out?

TEMKO: I think another day or so. It depends whether there are more photos, and there are rumors that some may exist. I think Dickie is right, in the long term this is always going to be there and I think it will be resuscitated again and again. The only way, in addition to what Patrick says, to address the long-term damage to Harry's role in the family is at some stage to deal with the serious underlying issues, and that is not so much whether this was insensitive, which it clearly was, but again a sense that at age 20, as he grows up, as a member of the royal family he has to demonstrate some sense of historic context and some sense of an ability to make the right judgments because, if anything, is kind of a litmus test for whether you have the instinct for this job. It's an incident like this because at no stage -- I mean, the common response on radio phone-ins here, both by supporters, friends, and critics of Harry, is still how on earth did this happen? I mean, how at no stage during this process did a little voice either externally or internally not say, this is just off the wall. It's wrong.

KING: Dickie, the British tabloid -- the press, they love this, right?

ARBITER: Oh, they went to town on it. The early editions yesterday didn't have anything and then the later editions, the final editions, they didn't have the picture, but they had the story. What is interesting about what Ed just said, about Harry having the right judgment, now, he's due to go into the army and to officer training. He's got to learn how to make judgments because he is going to be in charge of men, whether it is in a peace time guard action or whether it is in war, and he is going to have to make judgments. If he's going to make judgments then, the way he has made judgments about wearing this uniform, then God help us because he is going to be making the wrong judgments. He's got to learn, and I think the sooner he gets into the army, the sooner he gets discipline and the sooner he grows up.

KING: Patrick, you knew him as a young boy. What was he like?

JEPHSON: He was what all young boys should be, full of mischief and fun. Of course, he was a constant source of amusement to his mother, who was very proud of him. It's interesting to look at the instinct. One of the remarkable things about his mother, and I worked with her closely for eight years, was that no matter how complex the situation she was dealing with, her instinct never let her down. If Harry doesn't have it through inheritance, it's something he's going to have to learn and it looks like learning it is going to be a painful process.

KING: Robert Lacey, would you bet that he'll grow from this?

LACEY: I'm sure he will. As we've already said, you shared the pictures of him just a few days ago working with volunteers on the tsunami relief. I don't know how many people in this panel have spent a day in the last week to help the victims of the tsunami. This is a complex issue dealing with a complex young man. At a costume party, you dress in something you are not, and I don't believe Harry is a Nazi. I think the pictures of him helping tsunami victims, the pictures we saw of him with AIDS victims in Africa, that's the real Prince Harry, and we're going to see it coming out in the future. As everyone was saying, the quicker he gets into Sandhurst and gets on with the real job of work, the better.

KING: And Dickie, will they put more PR people closer to him?

ARBITER: I don't think you can put more PR people. They've got enough as it is. They've got about 10 or 11 people in that office already. If you add more PR people, there would be more PR people than private secretaries. What Harry's got to do is listen to them. The PR team has got to be closer to their charges and know what they're doing at all times instead of waiting to see what happens when they read it in the paper and then react to it. They have got to be on top of it and take this guy in hand and start tutoring him because he is representing U.K. Incorporated, and he cannot get away with doing what he has been doing. When he does good things, he's very good at it. We saw it with the Red Cross just a few days ago. But when he does bad things, they are really bad.

KING: Thank you Robert Lacey, Patrick Jephson, Dickie Arbiter, and Ned Temko for reporting to us from London. It's quite late there. And we appreciate you staying up to discuss this incredible bit of news.

And to close things out tonight we're going to turn it over to Joan Rivers as we go to break. She is brushing up on her red carpet skills for the Golden Globes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom needed to brush up on her red carpet interviewing skills.

JOAN RIVERS: Can I talk to you for a minute? Oh, officers, could you just turn for me? One twirl. One [bleep] twirl wouldn't kill you.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is exciting. It's Destiny's Child.

How good to see you!

I hope in this outfit you're planning to travel.

Well, look at you!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at you!

RIVERS: Who are you wearing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gucci.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gap. UNIDENTIIFED MALE: Ralph Lauren sweatshirt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Designed by the United States army, ma'am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: She and her lovely daughter Melissa grace the front cover of "TV Guide." That's the network that will present their famed red carpet show this Sunday night, at 6:00 Eastern Time, 3:00 Pacific, preceding the Golden Globes. Comic TV personality, author, businesswoman, Joan Rivers joins us. How did that start? The whole fashion dish thing?

RIVERS: It was one of my terrible moments when nothing was happening in my life. And they said do you want to stand with the paparazzi and talk? I said sure. And I was the first to say who are you wearing?

KING: How many years ago was that?

RIVERS: Nine years ago.

KING: Now it's the TV Guide network.

RIVERS: Yes.

KING: Why did you leave where you were?

RIVERS: Money and the excitement of the new network. We're the first ones to be without -- brand new network run by Rupert Murdoch. It's going to be a big network.

KING: Does that mean they're going to do other things?

RIVERS: Oh, yes.

KING: What's your read on this royal scandal? I know you know Prince Charles.

RIVERS: I adore him. I feel very sorry for Harry. It's a mixed message world. You can't go (UNINTELLIGIBLE) "The Producers" where they have chickens doing the Nazi salute. The kid is at a private party. The invasion of privacy that a friend takes a picture on a cellphone, it's sad. And he did apologize. Leave him alone.

KING: But they don't, right? The tabloids will never let this...

RIVERS: You know the tabloids. They're still about me and my breasts. How low can they go?

KING: Why are people interested in what people are wearing?

RIVERS: Again, there is no royal family here, and it's all about people watching, and when you see somebody, it's wonderful to be able to laugh at someone that's in a place that you can't obtain. You know, it's very...

KING: Perhaps another world.

RIVERS: Yeah, that you can't get in. So in a way, by laughing at them, it makes you feel good.

KING: When did you bring Melissa in?

RIVERS: Very early on. They wanted me to do a twosome, and they had me with somebody else, and Missy had been working for VH-1 and MTV and CBS "Thsi Morning." So I said, use my daughter, she's in the business. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mother/daughter combination. Great. You know that.

KING: To do it effectively, do you have to be totally honest?

RIVERS: Totally honest.

KING: So if you don't like the dress, we're going to know it?

RIVERS: Very tough.

KING: Isn't that hard? What if you like the person and don't like the dress?

RIVERS: It's very tough. How often can you say, I like your shoes? Or good luck?

KING: Do they know how you feel?

RIVERS: They do. And you know, again, you know, from your position, the big ones laugh about this. Do you think Tom Hanks cares or Rita Wilson, gee, Joan didn't like my pink dress? I love it when Julia Roberts, say it to my face, not to my back.

KING: Do they all talk to you?

RIVERS: Most of them talk to me. Some despise me.

KING: Who despises you?

RIVERS: Annette Bening, it's like I smell, right pass. Nine years. Annette, Annette, get that big ass over here! Let me talk to you. Won't do it.

KING: Do you like Warren?

RIVERS: I like them both.

KING: So you like her?

RIVERS: Yeah, every time I met her. You know, I love stars.

KING: By the way, speaking of stars, Joan and I are both in a number one movie of the year. We don't want to boast about that. I won the "American Idol" contest, on the DVD. But here's our little lady in "Shrek 2." Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERS: Everyone who's anyone has turned out to honor Princess Fiona and Prince Shrek. And oh, my! The outfits look gorgeous! Look, Hansel and Gretel. What the heck are the crumbs for? And right behind them, Tom Thumb and Thumbelina. Oh, aren't they adorable? Here comes Sleeping Beauty. Oh, tired old thing!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Wasn't that a hoot to do that?

RIVERS: Oh, do you know my grandson went crazy.

KING: It's the biggest thing in my life. I'm, you know...

RIVERS: Yeah.

KING: I'm Doris, the ugly stepsister.

RIVERS: And you're beautiful in my eyes.

KING: In my eyes. OK. All right, let's discuss some things.

What do you make of Brad Pitt? I couldn't sleep.

RIVERS: You know...

KING: I'm lost, I'm so troubled.

RIVERS: I work on Court TV, and I'm out on the street. America is so upset about it.

KING: Why?

RIVERS: Because...

KING: I mean, they're a nice couple. They're nice to -- they're two great people.

RIVERS: But they're nice, you know. Everyone likes them.

KING: It happens.

RIVERS: I think she saw him in "Troy." That's just my opinion. But I like them both, and it's sad. Now, when Jennifer Lopez dumps the next one or Angelina Jolie, you go, yeah, it was 12 minutes, time to go. But with -- you really liked them, and I was sorry to see it happen.

KING: If Jennifer comes on Sunday night, what would you say?

RIVERS: Oh, over here! Jen, Jen, looking great! Well, she looks amazing. She can wear a couture dress beautifully.

KING: And would you bring it up if Brad Pitt came separately? How do you handle that kind of situation? Live television on red carpet.

RIVERS: If he came separately, I'd be thrilled to see them. And of course, you'd have to say something like, what would I say?

KING: Sorry to hear about it.

RIVERS: Well, Melissa likes blondes, so I'd say, would you like to meet Melissa? You know, hey, I'm a Jewish mother.

KING: How goes life otherwise?

RIVERS: Great.

KING: Things are well?

RIVERS: Things are great, you know.

KING: Are you in a new business?

RIVERS: I'm always in a new business, Larry.

KING: What's the latest?

RIVERS: It's QVC forever. You know, makeup, cosmetics. I'm a hit show in England. It's -- I have an amazing life.

KING: Hit show in England?

RIVERS: I'm doing -- it's a cross between Jerry Springer and Oprah. I give sexual advice.

KING: Wait a minute. You go over to England?

RIVERS: Yeah, I do, my own show.

KING: How often?

RIVERS: I go about every three months, and I do a lot of shows.

KING: And what's the show?

RIVERS: It's like funny sexual advice.

KING: Like Dr. Ruth?

RIVERS: Dr. Ruth meets Jerry Springer.

KING: And who...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ... audience? RIVERS: Yeah, we have an audience. And you should see who comes. I like to suck toes, what do you think? They're always saying, two consenting adults. Ah!

KING: How did that come about?

RIVERS: They called me up...

KING: How do you get into these?

RIVERS: They called me up and they said, would you like to do this show? I said, love to. Let's try it. And it's a hit.

KING: Did you go on "Nip and Tuck?"

RIVERS: I loved it. I'm going back this season.

KING: Why?

RIVERS: Because I think America should know that you can look better if you want to. And I hate the women in our business who lie, who say I've done nothing. I've seen them sit here and say to you, talking to the part (ph) in the hair that I've done -- I have never done anything with my face -- today. You know what I mean? So I think "Nip and Tuck" is great.

KING: What have you done?

RIVERS: Not that much. I had a facelift, obviously, as we all have. I go to Steve Harper (ph), who is a dear friend of mine, and I do little bits and pieces.

KING: Like a bit, what's a bit?

RIVERS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I'll say, Steve, this is starting the show. This is starting to show. I'll probably go back in for this in a year. There's a little there.

KING: Do you do Botox?

RIVERS: Oh, ask me a question. Anything? Are you happy, are you sad?

KING: Are you happy or sad?

RIVERS: I'm very happy. Can't move. Sometimes it's too much. These women -- your mother died, Cher. Boo hoo. Boo hoo! And I love Cher.

KING: Do you ever get enough...

RIVERS: You want to look good. It's about getting up in the morning and going, I'm alive and I look OK.

KING: And you look, you really look good.

RIVERS: Thank God.

KING: And how is the love life?

RIVERS: Please!

KING: Bad?

RIVERS: At my age? Even if they'd take me, they can't remember. Between Viagra and Depends, it's interesting. My life is very lucky. I have good friends.

KING: You have a long-time friend, right?

RIVERS: I have a friend and...

KING: And others.

RIVERS: And others. I'm a lucky person.

KING: You look forward to Sunday night?

RIVERS: I can't wait.

KING: What are you going to wear?

RIVERS: Pamela Dennis. And it's going to be orange-colored vest, and it's going to be great. And I'm going to be out on that carpet, and look out, America!

KING: We're going to look for you.

RIVERS: I love you so much. Thank you.

KING: Long-time friend. Joan Rivers, 6:00 Eastern, 3:00 Pacific. She's the queen of the red carpet. She'll be there with Melissa before the Golden Globes. And I'll be back...

RIVERS: TV Guide Network.

KING: TV Guide Network. And I'll be back to tell you about tomorrow night right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Elvis Presley would be 70 years old. Tomorrow night, we have got a number of people who knew him and loved him. A number of people. People who grew up with him. Tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired January 13, 2005 - 21:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, a conversation with Secretary of State Colin Powell, now in his final days in office, on the Iraq elections, tsunami relief and more.
And then, Prince Harry, third in line for the throne of England, photographed wearing a Nazi soldier's uniform, complete with swastika, at a costume party. What was he thinking? We'll go live to London for the latest on this international scandal.

Plus, Joan Rivers, the most outrageous mouth on the red carpet is also friends with Prince Charles. We'll ask her about Prince Harry's latest royal uproar, and about her own new multimillion dollar deal. It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

It's a great pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE an old friend, Colin Powell, United States secretary of state, his final days in that office. What's it like to be leaving?

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, Larry, you know, all things come to an end. I'm very pleased and privileged to have served this president and serve the American people for another four years, bringing it to almost 40 years of government service, and I'm very satisfied with what we've been able to do here in the State Department, working with great men and women who serve the nation so proudly and so well. I'm very pleased at so many accomplishments that we've had in foreign policy over the last several years, whether it's increasing development assistance, or what we've done in HIV/AIDS, or our relationship with Russia and China, expansion of NATO. So many other things I could touch on. But new doors are always opening. So I look forward to what opportunities are out there for me.

KING: Do you envision a public life again?

POWELL: I can always envision public life, not necessarily in government, but I expect that I'll be doing something in public life, and we'll just have to wait and see what that's going to be, Larry.

KING: All right, let's touch some bases. You were quoted as saying that in all your career, in all the things you've seen, war and otherwise, nothing was like the tsunami. Could you elaborate?

POWELL: Nothing was like the tsunami, because flying over the city of Banda Aceh in northern Sumatra looked like flying over a place that has just been hit by a nuclear weapon. Completely flattened. More than just flattened, scraped clean down to bare earth. Trees, grass, houses, cars, boats, schools. And above all, thousands of people who have simply drowned in their homes, or picked up, taken out to sea, drowned and then tossed back onto the beach, to be pulled up into the debris fields. It was something like I had never seen before, but I had studied, when I was a young officer studying how to use nuclear weapons, this is what you expected to see from a nuclear weapon.

KING: Wow.

POWELL: And also, in other places, like Sri Lanka, considerable damage that I saw along the coast and in the town of Galle in the south part of Sri Lanka.

So this was an incredible event, affecting some 11 or 12 countries, over thousands of miles, over a couple of continents, and I think what is also impressive is the level of the international response, a tremendous outpouring of support from both governments around the world and private citizens throughout the world.

KING: How long is it going to take? A long time?

POWELL: It's going to take years. And each country is a little different. India is fine. It can handle its own needs. It had a significant loss of life, but it has the resources to deal with it. Thailand will need a little bit of help, but for the most part, it can deal with its problem. It's going to be in Indonesia, and especially up north in Banda Aceh, and Sri Lanka that will need the most international help. And then there are other nations that will need some help. The Maldives and the Seychelles, perhaps a little bit in Somalia and Kenya and a few other places. But it's going to take time to rebuild these communities, and to rebuild these lives. Just imagine the trauma: 156,000 people wiped off the face of the Earth in a matter of minutes, and all of those families and all of those individuals who are suffering through the trauma of losing their children and their other family members in such a quick and brutal manner.

KING: Let's touch some other bases. Are you concerned over the Iraqi elections?

POWELL: Well, we want to see the elections take place as scheduled, on the 30th of January. We need this. The Iraqi people need this. The Iraqi interim government wants it. The U.N. wants it. The international community wants it, and certainly the United States wants it. Why? Because it's time for the Iraqi people to go to the polls and make a judgment as to what kind of leadership they want to see in the future, and to get out of an appointed leadership or leadership that is there on the basis of a U.N. resolution.

This will be their government, and when it becomes their government then they have a vested interest in it, and I think that will help us with the insurgency.

But the insurgency will only be defeated on the ground by military force, police force, but also the political force that comes with a free election where people now know they are defending their own government against these insurgents.

KING: We are no longer looking for weapons of mass destruction. We haven't found any. The latest poll said 50 percent of the people said it was a mistake. Do you ever think to yourself, maybe we shouldn't have gone?

POWELL: No, I think that when I see the Iraqi people getting up every day, putting themselves at risk by being in the police or by being in the military or just by being a government officials, and willing to take that risk because they know they've gotten rid of a tyrant, they've gotten rid of a terrible regime, and they now have an opportunity to build a democracy, we're the ones who created that opportunity for them. And we've got to stick with them and not second guess.

Now the issue of weapons of mass destruction is one that we really have to look into. Why did the intelligence community get it wrong? And it was a judgment with respect to stockpiles of these weapons, not the fact that Saddam Hussein had the intention of having and the capability of having them and never answered the questions put to him by the international community about these programs.

All of that has held up, that was correct. And where we went wrong and where the international intelligence community went wrong is believing that there was still stockpiles of such weapons. We haven't found them. They're not there. And we've got to take a second look at why we thought they were there.

KING: Mahmoud Abbas is the new president of the Palestinian people, I think -- do they call it the president or do they call it chairman?

POWELL: He's the president of the Palestinian Authority.

KING: He's already said he wants to observe all the security agreements and he wants to get together with the Israelis, yet today we have two Palestinian militants and two Israeli soldiers killed in a suicide bombing. And you once told me that of all the dilemmas you've dealt with in your life, this is the biggest. Are you encouraged?

POWELL: I'm encouraged that Chairman Arafat is no longer there, as an obstacle or excuse for people to point to. I'm encouraged in that the Palestinian people have in an open, free, fair election and with the assistance of the Israelis to make it happen, let it happen, have elected a new president in President Abu Mazen.

He's a good man. We know him well. But he knows and we know and the Israelis know that the Palestinians have to come together now and stand behind their president and insist on a reform government, an honest government that has a solid security apparatus that will go after these terrorists.

It's going to be another tragedy if people who conduct these acts, who shoot mortars out of Gaza, or try to get bombs into Israel from the West Bank, are allowed to continue to destroy the peace process and deny the Palestinian people their opportunity to have a state of their own.

Prime Minister Sharon is ready to pull out of the settlements in Gaza and some settlements in West Bank, get back into the road map, start working for peace. He needs a partner for peace. And that's prime minister -- now President Abu Mazen.

And Abu Mazen knows that he has to bring the Palestinian people along. The intifada did not accomplish a single thing for the Palestinian people toward their goal of a state of their own.

So it has to end. And all of these organizations and individuals and terrorists who continue to kill Israelis or to create conditions of instability are not doing their people a favor. They're denying their people their dream.

KING: A couple of other quick things. When and how does the Condoleezza Rice takeover take place? She has to be confirmed?

POWELL: She will have her hearing before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the 18th and I expect that will go swimmingly. There is a back-up day on the 19th. And then I would expect that on the 20th after the president is inaugurated, if they follow the practice that existed at the time of the first inauguration, the Senate will go into a session to confirm the president's standing nomination.

And I assume Condi will be somebody who has gone through the committee process and is standing before the Senate for confirmation -- her nomination is. And then once the Senate confirms her and perhaps others later that afternoon, after the parade, all the documentation will have been finished and the president can go ahead and appoint her.

And as soon as he had appointed her and she has taken the oath of office, she will the secretary of state and I will not.

KING: Will your stuff have been moved out already?

POWELL: Oh, yes. The office will be ready for her on the 20th.

KING: What are you going to miss the most?

POWELL: People. Same thing I've always missed the most whenever I stepped down from one of my military assignments, the privilege of leading and working with people who are so dedicated to this nation and do such a great job for us. For 35 and a half years of my public career, they were in uniform, and we called them GIs. And for the last four years, we've called them diplomats, we've called them foreign service officers, civil servants. They go by many names. Foreign service nationals. But they have the same thing in common with those individuals in uniform that I served with. And that is they're courageous, they are out in the frontlines of freedom, they're representing the interests of the American people so well, they're representing our values system to hundreds of missions around the world, to almost 200 countries that we have representation in, and I am so proud to have been given the opportunity to lead this great group of Americans.

KING: And finally, another book coming?

POWELL: Perhaps in due course. Not right away. I think I want to turn my attention into different directions. I don't know what I'll be doing yet, Larry, but a number of opportunities are out there. But I am going to let some time pass before I decide whether or not I'm going to write another book.

KING: We'll be seeing you along the trail. Lots of you.

POWELL: Thanks, Larry.

KING: Colin Powell, the United States secretary of state. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Another royal fiasco. Joining us in London, Robert Lacey, the best selling author and royal biographer.

Patrick Jephson, the former private secretary to Princess Diana, he knew Prince Harry as a young boy.

Dickie Arbiter, the former press secretary to the queen and former spokesman for Buckingham Palace.

And Ned Temko, editor in chief of "The Jewish Chronicle."

Lets start with Dickie Arbiter.

What do you make of this?

What's with this Nazi uniform and Harry?

DICKIE ARBITER, FORMER ROYAL PRESS SECRETARY: Well, what indeed is this Nazi uniform and Harry. The paper that is coming out on Friday is showing a completely different picture of what he might well have gone into, a different type of uniform. It's just a very serious error of judgment. If I can show you that picture, it looks like that, and that is an SS officer's uniform, which he didn't wear. The lady who owns the fancy dress shop said that all her uniforms were too small and the one he wore was the only one he could get into. A very, very serious error of judgment.

KING: Robert Lacey, what do you make of this?

ROBERT LACEY, ROYALS BIOGRAPHER: I quite agree. It was a terrible stupid error of judgment, and I'm very glad he's apologized for it. Having said that, though, I feel the outrage -- I can't share totally the outrage over making a terribly silly mistake, a kid of 20, thoughtless mistake. We live in a very confusing culture. I mean, the current hit in the west end of London here, is a show called "The Producers," (UNINTELLIGIBLE) from America hasn't. Every night hundreds of people are gathering in theater, pay lots of money to see Nazi uniforms being paraded about and people laugh at this. Yes, Harry has made a terrible mistake, but I feel that by concentrating on him, we're rather missing the point in all sorts of ways.

KING: Ned Temko, as editor in chief of "The Jewish Chronicle," does it go beyond that for you?

NED TEMKO, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE JEWISH CHRONICLE": Yes, I would split the difference between Dickie and Robert Lacey's views. I don't think this is a life or death issue that's going to change the western world, but I do think it's deeply offensive. And I think perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this isn't that Harry set out to offend everyone, but that he just seemed oblivious to the whole notion of historical context and what a swastika means. And indeed, even in their formal apology which was prompt and very explicit, it's interesting that it implies the problem was almost a fashion lapse. He apologizes for bad choice of costume, as if the problem is a tie that doesn't go with a shirt or the wrong color. And I think those here, and it's not just in the Jewish community, some political leaders who suggested maybe it would be good for him personally to go into slightly greater detail about his regrets, are concerned on that issue and that aspect of it. It's not just hostility or insensitivity, it's just total obliviousness.

KING: Or maybe going with his father in two weeks with the anniversary of Auschwitz. Patrick Jephson -- Patrick Jephson do you think, hey, he's only 20?

PATRICK JEPHSON, FORMER PRIVATE SECRETARY TO PRINCESS DIANA: Yes, he's only 20. Nevertheless, this is not an ordinary 20-year-old. And whether he likes it or not, the sad truth is, if he makes a mistake of this magnitude, then he's going to get caned for it. And I think that the professionals who are paid to advise him and the rest of his family are now, if they have any sense, moving into the damage repair mode. And I think that damage repair begins with a much better apology than has been given so far. Most people must, I think, appreciate that that apology was rushed out in a hurry. It would have been drafted by a royal aid, and it was rather conditional. It says "If offense was caused." Well, there's no doubt huge offense has been caused. And if the damage is going to put right, I think it would be good for Harry, certainly good for the royal family if it begins with a much better apology, preferably a personal one.

KING: Ned, were you going to say you agree that he should go to the Auschwitz event with his father?

TEMKO: I think that's one possibility. I think that won't happen because the Auschwitz event is a solemn, already carefully planned event to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the liberation of the camp. And I think the concern, it's an understandable concern, is that to overshadow a solemn ceremony with a media circus about what Harry says and when is probably not the best time to do it, quite frankly.

KING: We'll take a break and be right back with Robert Lacey, Patrick Jephson, Ned Temko. Joan Rivers with us later, don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SARAH FERGUSON, DUCHESS OF YORK: Harry said in a statement it was a poor choice of costume and I apologize. Now the thing is, he's apologized, so I believe a lot of Jewish organizations in Britain have accepted his apology. And I hope that the world accepts his apology, because you know, he deserves a break really.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Dickie Arbiter, did somebody rat him out? I mean, it was a party he went to, right? How did this get in the news?

ARBITER: Well, it was a party he went to, it was a private party at a friend of his. It was organized by the friend's father, Richard Leed (ph), who's been in and out of royal circles at one stage In The early '70s. He was linked to Princess Anne in a possible marriage there, but it never happened.

It was a private party. And, you know, we sell telephones in this country, mobile phones, the majority of which have cameras. And that's how the photograph was taken. On it went to a national newspaper. And lo and behold it was published in the national newspaper.

KING: Now Robert Lacey, William was at that party. Do you think someone must have went over to him and said what are you doing?

LACEY: Apparently not. In the stories appearing in the press today, we're being told that Harry and William and another friend called Guy Pelley, who was previously involved in Prince Harry's drug scandal, went to a second hand fancy dress shop and spent quite a lot of time browsing the racks.

And as Dickie said, apparently they looked over, or the Prince Harry looked over SS uniforms as well, and this was the only one that could fit him.

There is this big question that seems implied by what you're asking, or perhaps a smaller question in the bigger context of the horrors that he is sort of making light of. But William has come out of this so far totally unscathed. He hasn't been blamed for this. And you might say, why did he not say the word? The other question is, why was there nobody in the whole entourage who could see the terrible mistake that Harry was making?

KING: Ned Tempko, you call all of this mind boggling. Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wisenthal here in Los Angeles, said that it's inexcusable and he should visit Auschwitz by himself to appreciate the holocaust. Sara Ferguson, on the other hand, said give him a break. Are you in the middle there too?

TEMPKO: I'm not in the -- I think the important thing is what is learned from this. I don't think harry is going to change overnight. He's clearly a 20-year-old kid. I don't excuse what he's done on the basis of kind of callow youth, because I think he's a 20-year-old who has spent about 17 or 18 years of that in on-the-job training for being a royal, so he should know better.

But I think the important thing, particularly with these important anniversaries of the liberation of concentration camps coming up, is to use this as an impetus for education, for the notion of learning from what happened in the second World War, in the holocaust. And I think education is probably more important, and maybe too late for Harry, but certainly it's a reminder that with survivors and even their immediate families dwindling in number, people Harry's age have to have some sense of history and context.

KING: Patrick Jephson, is there anything else the British royalty or British government can do?

JEPHSON: Well, I think we all accept young men make mistakes. The important thing for this young man now, is he should redeem himself from this mistake and show that he's learned from it. I think if he steps up and shows inside there is a real prince there who is prepared to admit his mistakes and redeem himself through a sustained period of low-key good royal work, then he will find that people are remarkably forgiving.

KING: Do you think it's going to blow over, Dickie?

ARBITER: I think it will eventually blow over, but what is not going to blow over is the photograph. It is there now in all glorious technicolor, if I can put it that way. And it will come back to haunt him forever and a day. That photograph is never going to go away.

And when something happens, something that he does wrong, the photograph will reappear, and people will be reminded of what happened at that party.

He's going to have to live with that photograph for his days. When he does go into the army, I wouldn't be surprised at some stage if they draw a comparison of what he looks like in a British Army uniform and what he looked like at that party.

KING: Imagine if, Dickie, if he had had a Gestapo uniform that fit him.

ARBITER: Well, it beggars belief, doesn't it, that he could have even contemplated looking at that particular uniform. This one, if you look at it, is slightly lower key. It is offensive.

You know, if you or I had put something like that on, we might have got away with it at a private fancy dress party, but when you're a member of the royal family, you cannot get it away. They represents the royal family, the royal family represent U.K. Incorporated, and they cannot go around doing things like that.

KING: We'll take a break, come back, include some of your phone calls. Joan Rivers will join us later. You're watching LARRY KING LIVE, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We'll include your phone calls in just a moment. Robert Lacey, do you think that Prince Charles will have to say something?

LACEY: No, I don't think so. From what we hear, Prince Charles is resolutely resisting at the moment the pressure on Harry and on the palace for a second apology. We were just talking here, during the break, about the fact that Prince Charles and Camilla went to see "The Producers" at one of the early productions. Now, how is Mel Brooks making fun of Nazis acceptable, apparently, and Prince Harry in this stupid gesture, not? I don't know what the answer is. There's quite complex moral issues here. One way of dealing with ghastly things like the Holocaust and the ghastly aspects of human behavior is to laugh. I'm not suggesting here that Harry made some sort of sophisticated response, but I think the big debate going on here is very fruitful. But is goes beyond -- I suppose what I am protesting against is the politics of outrage. Outrage is so easy and makes everybody feel better. There are big issues here that need to be looked at and thought about.

KING: Patrick, Mel Brooks is a comedian. Charlie Chaplin did a great movie called "The Great Dictator" making fun of Hitler. He was doing satire. If Harry was doing this as satire, it didn't come off. Patrick, do you buy the comparison?

JEPHSON: I don't buy the comparison. I think "The Producers" is a sophisticated piece of satire. And what's more, it's inspired by Jews in order to, I think, to underline the outrage that any reasonable person would feel about the Nazi regime. This, I fear, was done by Harry as a completely misconstrued joke. I think we will all think more of him. In the long run, he'll think more of himself if he deals with it in a courageous and I'd say royal fashion right now by making sure that this apology sticks. And the signs are that it's not sticking.

KING: Let's go to San Diego. Hello.

CALLER: Hello. I don't understand why everyone is still up in arms about this. With due respect to everybody, he was at a costume party. He was just wearing a costume. I think everyone is blowing it out of proportion, and we really should give the poor kid a break.

KING: Ned, do you want to comment? It's just a costume.

TEMKO: It's just a costume but this guy is a -- one has some sympathy for Harry in the sense that he's not a free agent, but if you're third in line to the British throne, and as Dickie puts it, a representative of U.K. Incorporated, of Britain domestically and overseas you can't simply dress up in a Nazi uniform and accept there will be no repercussions. I think it's an issue of context, timing. This isn't just an ordinary kid going briefly off the rails. This is a member of the royal family, and certainly in the context of this, when you, you know -- it does slightly boggle the imagination that at no stage during, I guess, looking in a mirror and adjusting his swastika, it didn't occur to him or anybody around him that this probably is wrong.

KING: Redondo Beach, California, hello.

CALLER: Hi. What was the theme of Prince Harry's costume party?

KING: Was there a theme to the party, Dickie?

ARBITER: Yes, it was a strange theme of colonials and natives. I leave you to scratch your head and wonder what on earth that means. Harry went as this Africa (UNINTELLIGIBLE) soldier. What we must not get into here is this Jewishness of this. You've got to remember that during the Second World War in concentration camps, hundreds of thousands of people of different nationalities were also killed. Six million Jews and hundreds of thousands, in fact, millions of people of other nationalities. So it's not just an offense to the Jewish community it's also an offense to other nationalities who lost people. And where they get this theme for colonials and natives from, I don't know. William went in a sort of leopard skin outfit. That I suppose comes closest to native if you're looking at Africa but it's a very silly title and it's open to abuse.

KING: What do you make of it, Robert Lacey, that kind of party?

LACEY: Well, it is apparently young people, a very fashionable sort of party, it's known as a bad taste party where all rules are off.

KING: Boy, did that succeed.

LACEY: Thank God we're laughing about this at the end. He clearly won the price there for the most ghastly thoughtlessness and bad taste. Again, it is a sort of popular culture wear. I quite agree, he's not Mel Brooks. He's not Charlie Chaplin. It's a popular culture if you like, it's ordinary people's way of laughing at this sort of terrible black reality that Nazism represented which Dickie rightly said is not just a matter of anti-Semitism, but antihumanity.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more and then Joan Rivers. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Patrick Jephson, it's ironic, isn't it, that both William and Harry were praised for the work they were doing in tsunami relief?

JEPHSON: And quite properly they were praised. The important point about those pictures and others which show Harry and his brother doing what we hope royal people are supposed to do, is that they are canceled out by these other images. And I think that the important conclusion that Harry and his minders need to draw from it is that if Harry does not have the instinct to make the right decision, as it seems his brother did in this case, then that instinct has to be, if need be, taught to him by some pretty sharp methods, and hopefully this can be turned into an opportunity for him to learn from his mistake. I think that in the long run, Harry's long-term success or failure as a member of the ruling family is going to be determined by how well he does the day-to-day mundane stuff. It's only when he builds up a sustained record of that that people will begin to believe he has the instinct to do the job properly. KING: Muskegon, Michigan, hello. Are you there? Muskegon? Apparently not there. Ned, how long do you think this is going to play out?

TEMKO: I think another day or so. It depends whether there are more photos, and there are rumors that some may exist. I think Dickie is right, in the long term this is always going to be there and I think it will be resuscitated again and again. The only way, in addition to what Patrick says, to address the long-term damage to Harry's role in the family is at some stage to deal with the serious underlying issues, and that is not so much whether this was insensitive, which it clearly was, but again a sense that at age 20, as he grows up, as a member of the royal family he has to demonstrate some sense of historic context and some sense of an ability to make the right judgments because, if anything, is kind of a litmus test for whether you have the instinct for this job. It's an incident like this because at no stage -- I mean, the common response on radio phone-ins here, both by supporters, friends, and critics of Harry, is still how on earth did this happen? I mean, how at no stage during this process did a little voice either externally or internally not say, this is just off the wall. It's wrong.

KING: Dickie, the British tabloid -- the press, they love this, right?

ARBITER: Oh, they went to town on it. The early editions yesterday didn't have anything and then the later editions, the final editions, they didn't have the picture, but they had the story. What is interesting about what Ed just said, about Harry having the right judgment, now, he's due to go into the army and to officer training. He's got to learn how to make judgments because he is going to be in charge of men, whether it is in a peace time guard action or whether it is in war, and he is going to have to make judgments. If he's going to make judgments then, the way he has made judgments about wearing this uniform, then God help us because he is going to be making the wrong judgments. He's got to learn, and I think the sooner he gets into the army, the sooner he gets discipline and the sooner he grows up.

KING: Patrick, you knew him as a young boy. What was he like?

JEPHSON: He was what all young boys should be, full of mischief and fun. Of course, he was a constant source of amusement to his mother, who was very proud of him. It's interesting to look at the instinct. One of the remarkable things about his mother, and I worked with her closely for eight years, was that no matter how complex the situation she was dealing with, her instinct never let her down. If Harry doesn't have it through inheritance, it's something he's going to have to learn and it looks like learning it is going to be a painful process.

KING: Robert Lacey, would you bet that he'll grow from this?

LACEY: I'm sure he will. As we've already said, you shared the pictures of him just a few days ago working with volunteers on the tsunami relief. I don't know how many people in this panel have spent a day in the last week to help the victims of the tsunami. This is a complex issue dealing with a complex young man. At a costume party, you dress in something you are not, and I don't believe Harry is a Nazi. I think the pictures of him helping tsunami victims, the pictures we saw of him with AIDS victims in Africa, that's the real Prince Harry, and we're going to see it coming out in the future. As everyone was saying, the quicker he gets into Sandhurst and gets on with the real job of work, the better.

KING: And Dickie, will they put more PR people closer to him?

ARBITER: I don't think you can put more PR people. They've got enough as it is. They've got about 10 or 11 people in that office already. If you add more PR people, there would be more PR people than private secretaries. What Harry's got to do is listen to them. The PR team has got to be closer to their charges and know what they're doing at all times instead of waiting to see what happens when they read it in the paper and then react to it. They have got to be on top of it and take this guy in hand and start tutoring him because he is representing U.K. Incorporated, and he cannot get away with doing what he has been doing. When he does good things, he's very good at it. We saw it with the Red Cross just a few days ago. But when he does bad things, they are really bad.

KING: Thank you Robert Lacey, Patrick Jephson, Dickie Arbiter, and Ned Temko for reporting to us from London. It's quite late there. And we appreciate you staying up to discuss this incredible bit of news.

And to close things out tonight we're going to turn it over to Joan Rivers as we go to break. She is brushing up on her red carpet skills for the Golden Globes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom needed to brush up on her red carpet interviewing skills.

JOAN RIVERS: Can I talk to you for a minute? Oh, officers, could you just turn for me? One twirl. One [bleep] twirl wouldn't kill you.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is exciting. It's Destiny's Child.

How good to see you!

I hope in this outfit you're planning to travel.

Well, look at you!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at you!

RIVERS: Who are you wearing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gucci.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gap. UNIDENTIIFED MALE: Ralph Lauren sweatshirt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Designed by the United States army, ma'am.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: She and her lovely daughter Melissa grace the front cover of "TV Guide." That's the network that will present their famed red carpet show this Sunday night, at 6:00 Eastern Time, 3:00 Pacific, preceding the Golden Globes. Comic TV personality, author, businesswoman, Joan Rivers joins us. How did that start? The whole fashion dish thing?

RIVERS: It was one of my terrible moments when nothing was happening in my life. And they said do you want to stand with the paparazzi and talk? I said sure. And I was the first to say who are you wearing?

KING: How many years ago was that?

RIVERS: Nine years ago.

KING: Now it's the TV Guide network.

RIVERS: Yes.

KING: Why did you leave where you were?

RIVERS: Money and the excitement of the new network. We're the first ones to be without -- brand new network run by Rupert Murdoch. It's going to be a big network.

KING: Does that mean they're going to do other things?

RIVERS: Oh, yes.

KING: What's your read on this royal scandal? I know you know Prince Charles.

RIVERS: I adore him. I feel very sorry for Harry. It's a mixed message world. You can't go (UNINTELLIGIBLE) "The Producers" where they have chickens doing the Nazi salute. The kid is at a private party. The invasion of privacy that a friend takes a picture on a cellphone, it's sad. And he did apologize. Leave him alone.

KING: But they don't, right? The tabloids will never let this...

RIVERS: You know the tabloids. They're still about me and my breasts. How low can they go?

KING: Why are people interested in what people are wearing?

RIVERS: Again, there is no royal family here, and it's all about people watching, and when you see somebody, it's wonderful to be able to laugh at someone that's in a place that you can't obtain. You know, it's very...

KING: Perhaps another world.

RIVERS: Yeah, that you can't get in. So in a way, by laughing at them, it makes you feel good.

KING: When did you bring Melissa in?

RIVERS: Very early on. They wanted me to do a twosome, and they had me with somebody else, and Missy had been working for VH-1 and MTV and CBS "Thsi Morning." So I said, use my daughter, she's in the business. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) mother/daughter combination. Great. You know that.

KING: To do it effectively, do you have to be totally honest?

RIVERS: Totally honest.

KING: So if you don't like the dress, we're going to know it?

RIVERS: Very tough.

KING: Isn't that hard? What if you like the person and don't like the dress?

RIVERS: It's very tough. How often can you say, I like your shoes? Or good luck?

KING: Do they know how you feel?

RIVERS: They do. And you know, again, you know, from your position, the big ones laugh about this. Do you think Tom Hanks cares or Rita Wilson, gee, Joan didn't like my pink dress? I love it when Julia Roberts, say it to my face, not to my back.

KING: Do they all talk to you?

RIVERS: Most of them talk to me. Some despise me.

KING: Who despises you?

RIVERS: Annette Bening, it's like I smell, right pass. Nine years. Annette, Annette, get that big ass over here! Let me talk to you. Won't do it.

KING: Do you like Warren?

RIVERS: I like them both.

KING: So you like her?

RIVERS: Yeah, every time I met her. You know, I love stars.

KING: By the way, speaking of stars, Joan and I are both in a number one movie of the year. We don't want to boast about that. I won the "American Idol" contest, on the DVD. But here's our little lady in "Shrek 2." Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERS: Everyone who's anyone has turned out to honor Princess Fiona and Prince Shrek. And oh, my! The outfits look gorgeous! Look, Hansel and Gretel. What the heck are the crumbs for? And right behind them, Tom Thumb and Thumbelina. Oh, aren't they adorable? Here comes Sleeping Beauty. Oh, tired old thing!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Wasn't that a hoot to do that?

RIVERS: Oh, do you know my grandson went crazy.

KING: It's the biggest thing in my life. I'm, you know...

RIVERS: Yeah.

KING: I'm Doris, the ugly stepsister.

RIVERS: And you're beautiful in my eyes.

KING: In my eyes. OK. All right, let's discuss some things.

What do you make of Brad Pitt? I couldn't sleep.

RIVERS: You know...

KING: I'm lost, I'm so troubled.

RIVERS: I work on Court TV, and I'm out on the street. America is so upset about it.

KING: Why?

RIVERS: Because...

KING: I mean, they're a nice couple. They're nice to -- they're two great people.

RIVERS: But they're nice, you know. Everyone likes them.

KING: It happens.

RIVERS: I think she saw him in "Troy." That's just my opinion. But I like them both, and it's sad. Now, when Jennifer Lopez dumps the next one or Angelina Jolie, you go, yeah, it was 12 minutes, time to go. But with -- you really liked them, and I was sorry to see it happen.

KING: If Jennifer comes on Sunday night, what would you say?

RIVERS: Oh, over here! Jen, Jen, looking great! Well, she looks amazing. She can wear a couture dress beautifully.

KING: And would you bring it up if Brad Pitt came separately? How do you handle that kind of situation? Live television on red carpet.

RIVERS: If he came separately, I'd be thrilled to see them. And of course, you'd have to say something like, what would I say?

KING: Sorry to hear about it.

RIVERS: Well, Melissa likes blondes, so I'd say, would you like to meet Melissa? You know, hey, I'm a Jewish mother.

KING: How goes life otherwise?

RIVERS: Great.

KING: Things are well?

RIVERS: Things are great, you know.

KING: Are you in a new business?

RIVERS: I'm always in a new business, Larry.

KING: What's the latest?

RIVERS: It's QVC forever. You know, makeup, cosmetics. I'm a hit show in England. It's -- I have an amazing life.

KING: Hit show in England?

RIVERS: I'm doing -- it's a cross between Jerry Springer and Oprah. I give sexual advice.

KING: Wait a minute. You go over to England?

RIVERS: Yeah, I do, my own show.

KING: How often?

RIVERS: I go about every three months, and I do a lot of shows.

KING: And what's the show?

RIVERS: It's like funny sexual advice.

KING: Like Dr. Ruth?

RIVERS: Dr. Ruth meets Jerry Springer.

KING: And who...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ... audience? RIVERS: Yeah, we have an audience. And you should see who comes. I like to suck toes, what do you think? They're always saying, two consenting adults. Ah!

KING: How did that come about?

RIVERS: They called me up...

KING: How do you get into these?

RIVERS: They called me up and they said, would you like to do this show? I said, love to. Let's try it. And it's a hit.

KING: Did you go on "Nip and Tuck?"

RIVERS: I loved it. I'm going back this season.

KING: Why?

RIVERS: Because I think America should know that you can look better if you want to. And I hate the women in our business who lie, who say I've done nothing. I've seen them sit here and say to you, talking to the part (ph) in the hair that I've done -- I have never done anything with my face -- today. You know what I mean? So I think "Nip and Tuck" is great.

KING: What have you done?

RIVERS: Not that much. I had a facelift, obviously, as we all have. I go to Steve Harper (ph), who is a dear friend of mine, and I do little bits and pieces.

KING: Like a bit, what's a bit?

RIVERS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I'll say, Steve, this is starting the show. This is starting to show. I'll probably go back in for this in a year. There's a little there.

KING: Do you do Botox?

RIVERS: Oh, ask me a question. Anything? Are you happy, are you sad?

KING: Are you happy or sad?

RIVERS: I'm very happy. Can't move. Sometimes it's too much. These women -- your mother died, Cher. Boo hoo. Boo hoo! And I love Cher.

KING: Do you ever get enough...

RIVERS: You want to look good. It's about getting up in the morning and going, I'm alive and I look OK.

KING: And you look, you really look good.

RIVERS: Thank God.

KING: And how is the love life?

RIVERS: Please!

KING: Bad?

RIVERS: At my age? Even if they'd take me, they can't remember. Between Viagra and Depends, it's interesting. My life is very lucky. I have good friends.

KING: You have a long-time friend, right?

RIVERS: I have a friend and...

KING: And others.

RIVERS: And others. I'm a lucky person.

KING: You look forward to Sunday night?

RIVERS: I can't wait.

KING: What are you going to wear?

RIVERS: Pamela Dennis. And it's going to be orange-colored vest, and it's going to be great. And I'm going to be out on that carpet, and look out, America!

KING: We're going to look for you.

RIVERS: I love you so much. Thank you.

KING: Long-time friend. Joan Rivers, 6:00 Eastern, 3:00 Pacific. She's the queen of the red carpet. She'll be there with Melissa before the Golden Globes. And I'll be back...

RIVERS: TV Guide Network.

KING: TV Guide Network. And I'll be back to tell you about tomorrow night right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Elvis Presley would be 70 years old. Tomorrow night, we have got a number of people who knew him and loved him. A number of people. People who grew up with him. Tomorrow night on LARRY KING LIVE.

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