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Lou Dobbs Tonight

30 Marines, 1 Sailor Killed In Helicopter Crash; Panel Discusses Pros, Cons of Bush Social Security Program

Aired January 26, 2005 - 18:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

LOU DOBBS, HOST: Thank you very much, Wolf. And good evening, everyone.
General John Abizaid and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did not take note, but this was the bloodiest day since the war started in Iraq. Indeed, American troops in Iraq today suffered the highest losses in one day since the beginning of the war nearly two years ago.

Thirty of our Marines and a sailor were killed when their helicopter crashed in western Iraq. Initial reports suggest that that crash was an accident because of foul weather.

Four other U.S. Marines and two soldiers were killed in combat elsewhere. Fourteen hundred and 18 American troops have now been killed in Iraq.

Jeff Koinange reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's the single deadliest incident for U.S. forces since the invasion of Iraq.

(voice-over) Still no word on whether the crash was an accident or whether the helicopter, a CH-53 Super Stallion like this, was brought down by fire. A spokesman for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force says search and rescue teams are combing the area and an investigation is under way.

And on a dark day for U.S. forces here, four other Marines were killed in combat operations, also in western Iraq. Nor was it just U.S. forces that suffered this day.

In near Kirkuk in the country's north, three car bombs in the space of an hour targeted Iraq's security forces, killing several and wounding a number of soldiers and policemen.

Insurgents have already started targeting schools, which will become polling centers on election day. Three were firebombed late Tuesday, causing extensive damage.

Despite the violence, some candidates are campaigning hard to be elected to the new national assembly. This is Sadr City, a sprawling low-income neighborhood in eastern Baghdad, home to more than two million people, most of them Shiites. Candidates of the Independent Patriotic Movement are hustling for votes. (on camera) Few here dare to predict whether Sunday's election will restore a sense of purpose and stability for Iraqis. Or whether they'll be incidental to the rule of the gun. But for U.S. forces in Iraq, the elections right now are overshadowed by the continuing loss of comrades.

Jeff Koinange, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: President Bush today called upon Iraqis to defy terrorists and to vote in Sunday's elections. President Bush declared the United States will complete its mission in Iraq as soon as possible.

The president's comments came on a hastily called news conference at the White House. White House Correspondent Dana Bash has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Appearing with reporters on the deadliest single day for U.S. troops in Iraq, the president urged patience in what he repeatedly called a grand moment in history.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The story today is going to be very discouraging to the American people. I understand that. But it is the long-term objective that is vital, and that is to spread freedom.

BASH: Mr. Bush said Iraqis should defy terrorists and vote Sunday and, mindful of growing opposition to war among Americans, preemptively tried to declare success.

BUSH: The notion that somehow we're not making progress, I just don't subscribe to. I mean, we're having elections. And I think people need to put this moment in history in proper context.

BASH: The president also clarified what he meant in his inaugural address, insisting his call to end tyranny does not signal a dramatic policy shift towards countries like China and Russia, but a long-term commitment for generations to come.

BUSH: I firmly planted the flag of liberty for all to see that the United States of America hears their concerns and believes in their aspirations.

BASH: Mr. Bush used this first news conference of his second term to regain his footing on the home front as well. Speaking on a day after Republican senators privately warned him his strategy to find support for dramatic changes in Social Security by warning of a crisis is backfiring, here, crisis was glaringly absent, toned down.

BUSH: The math shows we have a problem, and now is the time to act on that problem, fix the problem. BASH: But Mr. Bush, who will not face voters again, reminded he had been doubted before in major policy fights he eventually won and urged skittish lawmakers to follow his lead.

BUSH: What you're hearing a little bit is whether or not -- you know, whether or not it is worth the political price. I think it is.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Republican lawmakers say part of the president's P.R. problem is his reluctance so far to give very many details on his reform plan. Mr. Bush did say today he would be more specific in his State of the Union.

Bush aides, though, Lou, are well aware that the political standing he needs to overhaul Social Security is very much tied to what happens in Iraq -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, indeed, the basic intellectual argument and the facts involved.

Dana Bash -- thank you very much -- reporting from the White House.

The United Nations has refused to send troops to Iraq to protect voters and election officials. But that has not stopped the United Nations from offering an opinion on what our troops should be doing in Iraq -- incredibly, by many standards.

U.N. bureaucrats, safe in their New York City headquarters, are telling our soldiers and our Marines to keep a low profile during this election.

Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth has the report -- Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, first, we'll get to the election process. The U.N. says this is all on track technically, but security remains a big concern. It's going to be up to the Iraqi people to decide how valid the whole election process is and whether they want to risk their lives to do so.

U.N. senior political officials are aware, though, that there are some criticisms and concerns about the electoral system and people being excluded from the process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIERAN PRENDERGAST, U.N. UNDERSECRETARY GENERAL FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS: I don't think any of this should be seen as surprising, Iraqis emerging from an extremely traumatic chapter in its history, but nothing justifies intimidating or murdering voters, electoral workers or candidates. That is plain wrong, and it cannot be justified under any circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ROTH: Now the U.N. election chief, Carina Perelli, also said at this news conference that, in effect, she was concerned and she criticized the fact that American soldiers have been seen giving out leaflets, posters, notifying people of the election coming up.

But she also said that the U.N. system and the Iraqis could have done a better job of telling people about what's going on. There will be a saturation campaign, but, at one point, she said she's so upset, she was going to -- she's so mad, she's going to make a phone call right after the press conference.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARINA PERELLI, U.N. ELECTIONS DIVISION CHIEF: We have spent (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as well as myself, asking, begging military commanders precisely not to do that. It has not been well spent if you report that.

The military has been -- the U.S. military have been extremely, I mean, I would say overenthusiastic, in trying to help out with these elections, and we have been basically saying that they should try to minimize their participation because this is an Iraqi process.

It's not even -- it's not a U.N. process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The Iraq ambassador to the United Nations thinks it's no big deal about the American soldiers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMIR SUMAIDAE, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: The American soldiers, to my knowledge, were not handing out leaflets to support one particular list against another. They were simply encouraging people to take part in the elections, and, as such, I think Iraqis -- they will not anger any part of the Iraqi population.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: And, of course, Lou, we just heard, I believe, John Abizaid at the Pentagon -- of the Pentagon saying it's not the mission of the U.S. soldier to go and get involved and get out the vote. There are some 40 U.N. people in Iraq. They are advising the Iraqis. They're not observing this election -- Lou.

DOBBS: Is there any limit, do you think, Richard -- you've covered the United Nations for some time -- to the chutzpah, to the arrogance, to the bureaucratic absurdity that the institution seems to reach at times like these?

ROTH: Well, I don't think they realize the impact of some of their statements. But they also want to keep any country from being seen as being part of the vote, and they want it to be an Iraqi game, and that's what they're bending over backwards to do. DOBBS: But not, of course, involving themselves nor committing themselves, allowing the United States and a few nations in the coalition to do that, while we've lost over 1,400 men and women in combat there.

Let me ask you this. Bring us up to date. This month, we were to receive the Paul Volcker investigation, the first interim report into the U.N. food-for-scandal program. Is the United Nations certainly on schedule for that?

ROTH: Paul Volcker's report maybe February 7 or 8, delayed to give people who are going to be mentioned in it a time to respond. Three times, Kofi Annan has now been questioned.

The U.N. unwilling to give any information about who exactly was even in the room during the questioning, including yesterday's session with Paul Volcker.

But there might be a surprise in the report involving U.N. officials. We don't know yet.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

Richard Roth reporting from the United Nations.

A bold proposal for immigration reform. Real reform. One congressman is leading the effort to crack down on driver's licenses obtained by illegal aliens in this country.

Also ahead here tonight...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Words can't describe, when you look into the wreckage of those cars, the terrible violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: ... rush-hour horror. Was it a tragic accident or a multiple homicide? Officials are now investigating a deadly train crash tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: As promised, House Judiciary Chairman James Sensenbrenner today introduced legislation that the Senate removed from the intelligence reform bill before President Bush ultimately signed it into law. Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill aims to stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country.

Kitty Pilgrim has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, President Bush again pledged to push through his immigration reform proposals, a type of guest-worker program.

BUSH: It will be one of my priorities. I believe it's necessary to reform the immigration system. I'm against amnesty. I've made that very clear.

PILGRIM: The president's proposal was critiqued by Representative James Sensenbrenner, who says it lacks detail. Sensenbrenner's own plan toughens standards for issuing driver's licenses to what he calls foreign visitors; aliens must prove that they are here lawfully; the license would expire when their visa does; and the bill also calls for closing a three-mile hole in the U.S.- Mexican border fence.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: American citizens have a right to know who is in their country, that people are who they say they are and that the name on the driver's license is the real holder's name, not some alias.

PILGRIM: Sensenbrenner pointed out that Mohammad Atta, a 9/11 terrorist, received a six-month visa to stay in the United States, yet received a Florida driver's license good for six years. The Sensenbrenner proposal already has political battle scars when it originally was part of the intelligence bill last December.

Today, attacked by Democrats on the hill, Congresswoman Jane Harman today issued a statement saying the laws call for states to provide tamper-proof driver's licenses. She said the Sensenbrenner proposal will not make Americans safer. She also criticized President Bush for not demanding full funding for 10,000 border guards called for in the intelligence reform bill.

Sensenbrenner today rallied against that attack saying the current bill is bipartisan with 115 co-sponsors.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: The Sensenbrenner bill also takes issue with the system where immigrants seek asylum. He says it's abused by terrorists, and he wants to allow immigration judges to determine the credibility in asylum cases so terrorists cannot get into the country on false pretexts -- Lou.

DOBBS: You know, we've reached a great point in this country, when there is a debate even over whether or not people who are not citizens of this country can receive a driver's license, let alone whether they're illegal or not, and the very idea that a president could be talking about immigration reform, but his Homeland Security secretary is saying, well, we can't really be bothered with adding another 2,000 Border Patrol agents to 2,000- or 3,000-mile the border.

PILGRIM: The good part of this is everyone is calling attention to it as much as they can, and it's very, very visible now, the gaps in the system -- Lou.

DOBBS: And our sense of absurdity is being overwhelmed, as it often is in Washington, D.C., and, hopefully, a few people's sense of alarm as well.

Thank you.

Kitty Pilgrim.

That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight: Do you support Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country? Yes or no. We ask that you vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.

Coming up next, an early morning disaster for rush-hour commuters in Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We looked out the window, and we could see out the front. We could see something was on fire, and that's when we realized, OK, we need to get out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Police now say this was not an accident, and one person is responsible for the carnage.

And then, "Decision Day" for Secretary of State nominee Condoleezza Rice. We'll be joined by one senator who supported her nomination, one who voted against it, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Police in Los Angeles tonight say an abandoned suicide attempt caused a train derailment and killed at least 10 people. More than 100 people were injured in the early rush-hour crash.

Ted Rowlands reports from Glendale, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I felt the conductor put the brakes on, and then I felt a -- like we went over a bump.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Investigators say their train hit an automobile, then derailed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, and it seemed like we were gliding along and then, all of a sudden, the impact, and, you know, people were moaning. There were people, you know, that fell forward.

ROWLANDS: The train ran into another commuter train moving in the opposite direction, then crashed into a Union Pacific train parked nearby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was sitting where -- when I fell forward, I hit a wall.

ROWLANDS: Passengers say it was dark and doors were shut while they tried to get out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was all like steamy in there and things you see on TV. You know, like it's really steamy, and you can hear hoses broken and people screaming and -- you know, so the first thing to do was just to get out.

ROWLANDS: The injured were taken to five different area hospitals. Dozens of others were treated at triage centers at the scene. Police investigators say the accident was caused by a 26-year- old suicidal man who parked his car on the tracks.

RANDY ADAMS, GLENDALE POLICE CHIEF: Our information initially is that he was suicidal and had really attempted a variety of forms of taking his life, including placing his car on the tracks as one of the potential ways to commit suicide. However, apparently, he changed his mind because he exited the vehicle, leaving the vehicle on the tracks prior to it being struck.

ROWLANDS: One of the dead has been identified as Los Angeles County Sheriff Deputy James Chutino (ph). He, like most of the other passengers, was on his way to work.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Glendale, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The crash among a number around the country today. In Florida, eight school children were injured when their school bus overturned in Hernando Beach. The driver was also injured. Police say none of those injuries are believed to be life threatening.

In Maryland, police say a truck driver trying to avoid an accident swerved on a bridge approach and plunged 70 feet into a creek. It took rescuers 30 minutes to free the driver from the truck. He is tonight in serious condition. The accident, south of Baltimore, forced the closure of northbound lanes on I-95 for an hour and a half.

Still ahead here, after a tough battle on Capitol Hill, the Senate has reached a decision on whether to confirm Condoleezza Rice. Two leading senators join me next who voted in opposite directions.

Some say Social Security is not a crisis. Some say it is. We'll hear both sides of the issue in tonight's "Face Off" and try to ascertain the truth, reality.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In just a moment we'll hear from two senators who have two very different views and opinions about the confirmation of Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state. But first, these stories tonight.

Residents in New England aren't through digging out yet. More snow hit the area today slowing traffic and again commuter trains. The National Weather Service is calling for up to 10 inches more of snow in Boston and Cape Cod.

Identity theft over the Internet may not be as common as many think. A new report shows just 12 percent of identity thefts last year were carried out over the Internet. 72 percent were offline. This new report indicates thieves are making more of the money they are picking through trash and obtaining lost and stolen wallets.

The crew of the International Space Station successfully installed new equipment today during a space walk. The astronauts also discovered a mysterious residue on some of the spacecraft's vents, residue that may be responsible for sporadic problems with the oxygen generator that has been plaguing the station from almost the outset.

The U.S. Senate today confirmed Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state by a vote of 85-13. Many Democrats were sharply critical of Rice's role in the run-up to the Iraq war. Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota opposed her confirmation. He says she misled Congress repeatedly and intentionally about the situation in Iraq. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas voted in the favor of Rice's confirmation. The senator says Dr. Rice has the capability and experience to be a great secretary of state. Good to have you both with us.

Let me start first by -- there was no surprise in this confirmation, Senator Dayton. We were told all along that it would occur. It occurred. She was confirmed by an overwhelming margin. Why was it important to protract these hearings?

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D-MN), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Well, we just said we wanted to have nine hours of debate and the leadership, because of the inaugural activities last week, decided to hold that yesterday rather than last Thursday or Friday, which I certainly understand but it was not our intention to hold up this confirmation. And, you know, we have a role and responsibility under the constitution in the Senate to not just rubber stamp, but to consider carefully and then to state our views and we took that, and I think that's just exercising our role responsibly.

DOBBS: Senator Dayton suggests that it's the responsibility of the Senate, Senator Hutchison, to take that role seriously. At the same time, an overwhelming disposition not to hold Condoleezza Rice responsible, accountable, for absolutely misguided intelligence and statements about that misguided intelligence in the run-up to the war, Senator Hutchison. Do you think there should have been a higher degree of accountability on her part, on the administration's part?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R-TX), APPROPRIATIONS CMTE.: Well, I think all of us lament the breakdown of our intelligence system. I think the breakdown of our system allowed 9/11 to happen. We were taken by surprise. Now we are certainly wiser, and I don't think that you can hold Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, accountable for that. Clearly it was an intelligence failure. And I don't think she would ever intentionally not tell the truth to the American people, and I don't think anyone who is thinking would accuse her or the president of something deliberate.

DOBBS: Are you thinking, Senator Dayton?

DAYTON: I think that we were misinformed or not told the truth. The American people were not told the truth leading up to the Senate vote on the Iraq War resolution in October of 2002, and the American people -- and we were not told the truth thereafter. Some of it's come to light that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. That's a benefit of hindsight certainly but we now find that there were experts in the administration, the U.S. Department of Energy, who disputed this view that these aluminum tubes could only be used for nuclear weapons development.

We were never told that there were alternative views and even if that had not been known at the time, weeks or months later, we were never informed. Just as the American people were never informed after the president spoke in a State of the Union address the following January about an inaccuracy there that her deputy took responsibility for. But I think she should have been informed. That was not disclosed until the press brought it to light six months later.

These are not semantic differences, these are decisions that were made based on information provided by the administration, including the president and vice president, on which we got commitment to war, where over 1,400 Americans have lost their lives and over 10,000 have been wounded, maimed for life. We have profound consequences for this nation, the world. These are profoundly important matters, and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle impeached the president who preceded this one for not being -- fully disclosing to the American people and this goes way beyond that.

DOBBS: Senator Hutchison, would you want to respond to that?

HUTCHISON: Well, yes, I think that all of us are very concerned about the intelligence breakdown, but I don't think it's fair to attribute that to Condoleezza Rice or to the president. I think that is totally unfair. And I think that if we are talking about a secretary of state, we want someone who has the trust of the president and when foreign leaders deal with her, know that she and the president are on the same wavelength. And I think she will be a great secretary of state.

DOBBS: And let me ask you both, after nine hours of hearings and over an extra week's time, do you have the sense, as one who did watch a good part of those hearings, do you all have a good sense of how the State Department will be run different differently, how diplomacy will be pursued differently, if at all by Secretary Rice? Do you have a sense of the initiatives and the values and the strategy that's going to be employed by this secretary of state and this administration, vis-a-vis North Korea, Iran, Europe, China? If I may, Senator Hutchison?

HUTCHISON: Yes, I think that this secretary of state is taking on a different set of issues from the previous one. And I think she is going to start working with our European allies to get them more engaged in the war on terrorism. It is incredible that other countries have not come into the war on terrorism, bought into it as an assault on freedom wherever it may be in the world not just a United States issue.

Secondly, I think she is going to deal with North Korea in the way that has been done in the past. I think it's been the right thing to bring others in. China, Japan, multilateral talks with North Korea, not bilateral talks. I think she will continue that. And I think it is the right approach.

DOBBS: Senator -- I'm sorry to interrupt. We're just about out of time. Senator Dayton, I want to give you, if I may, the last word. We're basically out of time, but you get the last word.

DAYTON: I wish her well, we all do. We've gone through this process. She's the president's secretary of state. I want them both to succeed for the sake of our country.

DOBBS: Absolutely. Senator Dayton, Senator Hutchison, thank you for being here this evening.

Following up now on a story we brought you earlier this month. The New Mexico House of Representatives today voted unanimously in favor of a plan that would substantially increase benefits for members of the New Mexico National Guard. Governor Bill Richardson's proposal calls for $250,000 in life insurance to be paid for by the state government. The current life insurance benefits for our troops is $12,000.

The New Mexico State Senate has yet to vote on the legislation, but the bill appears to have strong and persuasive support. If passed, it would be the first of its kind anywhere in the country.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Many of you wrote in about our report last night on the minutemen project, about hundreds of American citizens patrolling one of the busiest stretches of the U.S./Mexican border.

Suzanne Grant of Farmingville, New York, "I support the project and hope it gets the attention of all of our elected officials who have been sit on the fence about illegal immigration. The war on terror cannot be fought with our borders open."

John Hughes in Armagh, Pennsylvania, "I certainly approve of American citizens protecting the border. We as citizens should have the right to defend ourselves against illegal aliens who are harming our labor force, a drain on our education system and jeopardizing our national security."

And Peggy Buesen of California, "Lou, this immigration crisis is no longer a Republican or Democrat problem. The vast majority of Americans want our borders closed and patrolled and oppose any form of amnesty. Our country is at war and our borders remain unprotected, risking the safety and lives of American citizens."

We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com.

A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. The question, "Do you support Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses?" Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up shortly.

One Jersey construction worker won't be watching the Super Bowl on television, he'll be playing in it. The Philadelphia Eagles asked former tight end Jeff Thomason who hasn't played football in two years to fill in for injured starter tight end Chad Lewis. Thomason took the call while he was working for a construction company in New Jersey.

Thomason says he's the luckiest guy in the world. The Eagles take on the New England Patriots a week from Sunday.

Still ahead here tonight, securing our future. Our "Face-Off" tonight on whether the U.S. government really needs to reform Social Security and whether the proposals, indeed, would do that.

And then, greed on trial. How prosecutors are take on three of corporate America's most notorious CEOs. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: An astonishing statement today by a top Chinese economist. A statement that is a clear warning to anyone who is still complacent about the rise of Chinese economic power. Speaking in Davos, Switzerland, the director of China's National Economic Research Institute said China has lost faith in the stability of the U.S. dollar because of its falling value.

He said China must reduce its dependence on the dollar and diversify into the Euro and the Yen. The Chinese economist also stressed China believes it has no need to revalue its currency, that of course means Chinese exports to this country will remain artificially cheap. Our already record huge, record trade deficit with China will continue to worsen. And even more Americans will lose their jobs because of the flood of low-priced imports.

President Bush today said now is the time to reform Social Security. He said that before, of course, and he will say it again. The president's proposals include privatizing a portion of Social Security.

The proposal is the subject of our "Face-Off" tonight. Joining me now to debate the issue from Capital Hill, Congresswoman Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut. She believes the only crisis in Social Security is one manufactured by the White House.

Sitting next to her, Congressman Jim Kolbe of Arizona who believes something needs to be done now or tax increases and benefit cuts are unavoidable.

We thank you for being here.

Let me begin with you Congressman Kolbe? Why now? The Social Security administration itself says plenty of money for the next, at least, 37 years, almost four decades. What's the problem? REP. JIM KOLBE, (R) KOLBE: Well, it's not true that there's enough for 37 years because what you have in the next, about 3 years, you'll have a declining amount of revenues coming into the Social Security trust fund. In about the year 2018, the revenues will be less than the benefits being paid out. And in 37 years, or roughly 37 years we exhaust all the IOUs. So, the problem is a cash flow problem. And it is now. And the longer you wait to deal with it, the more difficult it becomes.

DOBBS: Congresswoman DeLauro are you persuaded, I mean, the Social Security Administration says very clear to me that there really the fund is fine for four decades. Congressman Kolbe says no. What do you say?

REP. ROSA DELAURO, (D) CONNECTICUT: Well, I say the congressional budget office has just told us that the Social Security system is solvent until 2052, we're talking about 47 years. In addition, at that time, 80 percent of benefits can be paid.

This is a manufactured crisis. Does Social Security have challenges, Yes. Is there a crisis? No. And lest we forget, Social Security is the most successful, efficient, middle class retirement program. Two-thirds of seniors rely on it for half their income. Today's retirees, tomorrow retirees, they've earned those benefits.

And we are looking at an administration that's manufactured a crisis in order to put in place a privatization system that is a radical plan that will cut benefits 40 percent. That will add $2 trillion to the deficit, and leave that deficit to those younger Americans that they say they are trying to help.

DOBBS: What do you say Congressman Kolbe. Are you in this for the long haul? Are you with the administration all the way? There are a lot of issues to take on.

KOLBE: For 9 years we've been sprucing, I've been introducing a bill on Social Security reform. It's not privatization. And there is -- I've never used the word crisis, but there is a problem with Social Security. And we do need to make sure Social Security is there, not only for those who retire today, but for those in the future.

And this is just a classic example, one of those things where people say postpone now, don't do the tough things. Don't make those tough choices now. We need to do it now while we can do it, while it's fiscally possible to do it. But there is a problem with Social Security. It's a cash flow problem.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know people are living longer, more people are retiring and fewer people are coming into the workforce to pay the taxes.

DOBBS: Congressman Bill Thomas, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee introduces race and gender into the issue. The president as well on race. I mean, how complicated is this going to get? How -- I mean, we're pushing in some levels, don't you think, both of you, the boundaries of absurdity because Congress, Democrats and Republicans, administrations from as for back as memory will take us, pushes the fact that all those unfunded liabilities are off budget. We're not going to deal with those. And that we're not going to have to cut benefits or raise taxes. How do we deal with that, folks?

DELAURO: Lou, let me say this. First of all, I applaud my colleague who has introduced legislation. But with all due respect, the legislation also, you know, has mandatory private accounts and it cuts benefits. The fact of the matter is we're talking about 47 years. We have time to examine, carefully, some of the -- as I said there are challenges. Let's examine carefully. We did this in 1983. And first of all, let me just say the Democrats are ready, willing and able to have an open discussion, a -- a bipartisan discussion in the same way that we did in 1983 where there were lots of items...

DOBBS: My goodness, we raised taxes, we're paying 12 -- over 12 percent taxes, for Social Security. The Greenspan Commission brought those taxes forward so this would not happen.

What's going to be required here Congressman Kolbe?

KOLBE: Well, that's exactly the point. That's why if you don't make any changes and want to keep the benefits the same you'd have to raise the taxes considerably in the future to do that. We're not talking about mandatory private accounts, we're going to be talking about personal accounts that are going to be an asset that people are going to own. It's going to belong to them, it's something that they can take with them. A 48-year-old single mother today raises her kids and they're over 21, and she dies of a heart attack -- gets nothing from social security. Not one dime from it. We're talking about an asset that would actually belong to people and something they can pass along to their heirs.

DELAURO: Well, that there's a fallacy in the system is that, in fact, what happens is that what you are going to do, as I say, you're going to cut 40 percent of the benefits. There's...

KOLBE: No.

DOBBS: I got...

DELAURO: Well, that's in the literature. In addition to which, what happens is 80 percent of those accounts when those younger American retire have to go back. That's a little known fact.

DOBBS: I apologize. Congressman Kolbe, you get the last word.

KOLBE: Well, I would just say that now is the time to be thinking about this. Let's not wait until there really is a crisis. I've never used that word crisis but there is a problem. It's a cash flow problem. Young people instictively understand this. They know there's a problem. We need to deal with it now.

DOBBS: Well, Congressman Kolbe, I want to congratulate you for not calling it a crisis, because I think the facts speak for themselves. I salute you for doing that. I know it's difficult for you not to fall into the orthodox on this particular issue, and we thank you for your leadership.

And Congressman Delauro, as awlays, great to talk with you. We appreciate your insights as always. Thank you both.

DELAURO: Apperciate it.

DOBBS: Greed is on trial. Once prestiguous CEOs stand accused of massive corporate corruption. We'll have that special report, next. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight, greed on trial. Three high-profile criminal trials begin this week against former CEOS. They are all accused of abusing the empires they managed while their employees and shareholders suffered.

Christine Romans has the report.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bernie Ebers (ph), the Mississippi coach turned telecom king. Dennis Kozlowski from a humbled Newark upbringing to yachts and plush Manhattan apartments. And Richard Scrushi (ph), one-time gas station attendance who founded Healthsouth in 1984 and plastered his name all over buildings across Alabama.

JACOB ZAANSKY, SHAREHOLDERS' ATTORNEY: Three imperial CEO's have been knocked off their perch. Each of the three CEOs are being accused of lying and cheating and stealing from their own companies.

ROMANS: Ebbers gets the prize for biggest collapse. An $11 billion accounting fraud dragged WorldCom into the largest bankruptcy in American history. In court today, his lawyers painting him as another victim of the fraud.

A few blocks away, Kozlowski is on trial for looting Tyco of $600 million by forgiving loans and by wild personal spending.

And perhaps the most colorful of the trio on trial this week, Scrushy of Healthsouth. He's charged with a $2.7 billion accounting fraud. When he's not proclaiming his innocence, he's preaching -- on corruption and redemption.

Three CEOs and three terrible corporate breakdowns, now it all comes down to intent.

IRA SORKIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: The CEO may have been negligent. He may have been careless. He may have been stupid. He may have been unaware because he chose not to be aware because of his incompetence of what was going on. But that does not make it a criminal case.

ROMANS: Small consolation for furious shareholders.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: As Kozlowski, Ebers and Scrushy fight for their freedom, shareholders have little to fight for. Thousands of dollars, thousands of jobs, whole retirements are gone, and there are concerns that corporate reform is black sliding. Already, Lou, business lobbies are pushing to ease back on Sarbanes/Oxley reform legislation.

DOBBS: Well, their push is going to get a push back. I'm pretty confident that the Congress is not ready to play that game, and I hope the administration. Those are going to be three interesting trials. Thirteen people over the course of the worst corporate scandals in this country's history, 13 people have gone to jail. Thanks, Christine.

Still ahead -- the results of "Tonight's Poll" and we'll have a preview for you of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight -- 94 percent of you support Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to stop illegal aliens, potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country. We'll send those results along.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. A Congresswoman who says the Iraqi election is the least worst situation -- will be our guest. A former Bush cabinet member who says the Republican Party has taken a dangerous turn to the right. Please be with us.

Thanks for being with us tonight. For all us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired January 26, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Thank you very much, Wolf. And good evening, everyone.
General John Abizaid and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did not take note, but this was the bloodiest day since the war started in Iraq. Indeed, American troops in Iraq today suffered the highest losses in one day since the beginning of the war nearly two years ago.

Thirty of our Marines and a sailor were killed when their helicopter crashed in western Iraq. Initial reports suggest that that crash was an accident because of foul weather.

Four other U.S. Marines and two soldiers were killed in combat elsewhere. Fourteen hundred and 18 American troops have now been killed in Iraq.

Jeff Koinange reports from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's the single deadliest incident for U.S. forces since the invasion of Iraq.

(voice-over) Still no word on whether the crash was an accident or whether the helicopter, a CH-53 Super Stallion like this, was brought down by fire. A spokesman for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force says search and rescue teams are combing the area and an investigation is under way.

And on a dark day for U.S. forces here, four other Marines were killed in combat operations, also in western Iraq. Nor was it just U.S. forces that suffered this day.

In near Kirkuk in the country's north, three car bombs in the space of an hour targeted Iraq's security forces, killing several and wounding a number of soldiers and policemen.

Insurgents have already started targeting schools, which will become polling centers on election day. Three were firebombed late Tuesday, causing extensive damage.

Despite the violence, some candidates are campaigning hard to be elected to the new national assembly. This is Sadr City, a sprawling low-income neighborhood in eastern Baghdad, home to more than two million people, most of them Shiites. Candidates of the Independent Patriotic Movement are hustling for votes. (on camera) Few here dare to predict whether Sunday's election will restore a sense of purpose and stability for Iraqis. Or whether they'll be incidental to the rule of the gun. But for U.S. forces in Iraq, the elections right now are overshadowed by the continuing loss of comrades.

Jeff Koinange, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: President Bush today called upon Iraqis to defy terrorists and to vote in Sunday's elections. President Bush declared the United States will complete its mission in Iraq as soon as possible.

The president's comments came on a hastily called news conference at the White House. White House Correspondent Dana Bash has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Appearing with reporters on the deadliest single day for U.S. troops in Iraq, the president urged patience in what he repeatedly called a grand moment in history.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The story today is going to be very discouraging to the American people. I understand that. But it is the long-term objective that is vital, and that is to spread freedom.

BASH: Mr. Bush said Iraqis should defy terrorists and vote Sunday and, mindful of growing opposition to war among Americans, preemptively tried to declare success.

BUSH: The notion that somehow we're not making progress, I just don't subscribe to. I mean, we're having elections. And I think people need to put this moment in history in proper context.

BASH: The president also clarified what he meant in his inaugural address, insisting his call to end tyranny does not signal a dramatic policy shift towards countries like China and Russia, but a long-term commitment for generations to come.

BUSH: I firmly planted the flag of liberty for all to see that the United States of America hears their concerns and believes in their aspirations.

BASH: Mr. Bush used this first news conference of his second term to regain his footing on the home front as well. Speaking on a day after Republican senators privately warned him his strategy to find support for dramatic changes in Social Security by warning of a crisis is backfiring, here, crisis was glaringly absent, toned down.

BUSH: The math shows we have a problem, and now is the time to act on that problem, fix the problem. BASH: But Mr. Bush, who will not face voters again, reminded he had been doubted before in major policy fights he eventually won and urged skittish lawmakers to follow his lead.

BUSH: What you're hearing a little bit is whether or not -- you know, whether or not it is worth the political price. I think it is.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Republican lawmakers say part of the president's P.R. problem is his reluctance so far to give very many details on his reform plan. Mr. Bush did say today he would be more specific in his State of the Union.

Bush aides, though, Lou, are well aware that the political standing he needs to overhaul Social Security is very much tied to what happens in Iraq -- Lou.

DOBBS: And, indeed, the basic intellectual argument and the facts involved.

Dana Bash -- thank you very much -- reporting from the White House.

The United Nations has refused to send troops to Iraq to protect voters and election officials. But that has not stopped the United Nations from offering an opinion on what our troops should be doing in Iraq -- incredibly, by many standards.

U.N. bureaucrats, safe in their New York City headquarters, are telling our soldiers and our Marines to keep a low profile during this election.

Senior U.N. Correspondent Richard Roth has the report -- Richard.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, first, we'll get to the election process. The U.N. says this is all on track technically, but security remains a big concern. It's going to be up to the Iraqi people to decide how valid the whole election process is and whether they want to risk their lives to do so.

U.N. senior political officials are aware, though, that there are some criticisms and concerns about the electoral system and people being excluded from the process.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIERAN PRENDERGAST, U.N. UNDERSECRETARY GENERAL FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS: I don't think any of this should be seen as surprising, Iraqis emerging from an extremely traumatic chapter in its history, but nothing justifies intimidating or murdering voters, electoral workers or candidates. That is plain wrong, and it cannot be justified under any circumstances.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ROTH: Now the U.N. election chief, Carina Perelli, also said at this news conference that, in effect, she was concerned and she criticized the fact that American soldiers have been seen giving out leaflets, posters, notifying people of the election coming up.

But she also said that the U.N. system and the Iraqis could have done a better job of telling people about what's going on. There will be a saturation campaign, but, at one point, she said she's so upset, she was going to -- she's so mad, she's going to make a phone call right after the press conference.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARINA PERELLI, U.N. ELECTIONS DIVISION CHIEF: We have spent (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as well as myself, asking, begging military commanders precisely not to do that. It has not been well spent if you report that.

The military has been -- the U.S. military have been extremely, I mean, I would say overenthusiastic, in trying to help out with these elections, and we have been basically saying that they should try to minimize their participation because this is an Iraqi process.

It's not even -- it's not a U.N. process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The Iraq ambassador to the United Nations thinks it's no big deal about the American soldiers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAMIR SUMAIDAE, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: The American soldiers, to my knowledge, were not handing out leaflets to support one particular list against another. They were simply encouraging people to take part in the elections, and, as such, I think Iraqis -- they will not anger any part of the Iraqi population.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: And, of course, Lou, we just heard, I believe, John Abizaid at the Pentagon -- of the Pentagon saying it's not the mission of the U.S. soldier to go and get involved and get out the vote. There are some 40 U.N. people in Iraq. They are advising the Iraqis. They're not observing this election -- Lou.

DOBBS: Is there any limit, do you think, Richard -- you've covered the United Nations for some time -- to the chutzpah, to the arrogance, to the bureaucratic absurdity that the institution seems to reach at times like these?

ROTH: Well, I don't think they realize the impact of some of their statements. But they also want to keep any country from being seen as being part of the vote, and they want it to be an Iraqi game, and that's what they're bending over backwards to do. DOBBS: But not, of course, involving themselves nor committing themselves, allowing the United States and a few nations in the coalition to do that, while we've lost over 1,400 men and women in combat there.

Let me ask you this. Bring us up to date. This month, we were to receive the Paul Volcker investigation, the first interim report into the U.N. food-for-scandal program. Is the United Nations certainly on schedule for that?

ROTH: Paul Volcker's report maybe February 7 or 8, delayed to give people who are going to be mentioned in it a time to respond. Three times, Kofi Annan has now been questioned.

The U.N. unwilling to give any information about who exactly was even in the room during the questioning, including yesterday's session with Paul Volcker.

But there might be a surprise in the report involving U.N. officials. We don't know yet.

DOBBS: Thank you very much.

Richard Roth reporting from the United Nations.

A bold proposal for immigration reform. Real reform. One congressman is leading the effort to crack down on driver's licenses obtained by illegal aliens in this country.

Also ahead here tonight...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Words can't describe, when you look into the wreckage of those cars, the terrible violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: ... rush-hour horror. Was it a tragic accident or a multiple homicide? Officials are now investigating a deadly train crash tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: As promised, House Judiciary Chairman James Sensenbrenner today introduced legislation that the Senate removed from the intelligence reform bill before President Bush ultimately signed it into law. Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill aims to stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country.

Kitty Pilgrim has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today, President Bush again pledged to push through his immigration reform proposals, a type of guest-worker program.

BUSH: It will be one of my priorities. I believe it's necessary to reform the immigration system. I'm against amnesty. I've made that very clear.

PILGRIM: The president's proposal was critiqued by Representative James Sensenbrenner, who says it lacks detail. Sensenbrenner's own plan toughens standards for issuing driver's licenses to what he calls foreign visitors; aliens must prove that they are here lawfully; the license would expire when their visa does; and the bill also calls for closing a three-mile hole in the U.S.- Mexican border fence.

REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER (R), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: American citizens have a right to know who is in their country, that people are who they say they are and that the name on the driver's license is the real holder's name, not some alias.

PILGRIM: Sensenbrenner pointed out that Mohammad Atta, a 9/11 terrorist, received a six-month visa to stay in the United States, yet received a Florida driver's license good for six years. The Sensenbrenner proposal already has political battle scars when it originally was part of the intelligence bill last December.

Today, attacked by Democrats on the hill, Congresswoman Jane Harman today issued a statement saying the laws call for states to provide tamper-proof driver's licenses. She said the Sensenbrenner proposal will not make Americans safer. She also criticized President Bush for not demanding full funding for 10,000 border guards called for in the intelligence reform bill.

Sensenbrenner today rallied against that attack saying the current bill is bipartisan with 115 co-sponsors.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: The Sensenbrenner bill also takes issue with the system where immigrants seek asylum. He says it's abused by terrorists, and he wants to allow immigration judges to determine the credibility in asylum cases so terrorists cannot get into the country on false pretexts -- Lou.

DOBBS: You know, we've reached a great point in this country, when there is a debate even over whether or not people who are not citizens of this country can receive a driver's license, let alone whether they're illegal or not, and the very idea that a president could be talking about immigration reform, but his Homeland Security secretary is saying, well, we can't really be bothered with adding another 2,000 Border Patrol agents to 2,000- or 3,000-mile the border.

PILGRIM: The good part of this is everyone is calling attention to it as much as they can, and it's very, very visible now, the gaps in the system -- Lou.

DOBBS: And our sense of absurdity is being overwhelmed, as it often is in Washington, D.C., and, hopefully, a few people's sense of alarm as well.

Thank you.

Kitty Pilgrim.

That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight: Do you support Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country? Yes or no. We ask that you vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results for you later in the broadcast.

Coming up next, an early morning disaster for rush-hour commuters in Los Angeles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We looked out the window, and we could see out the front. We could see something was on fire, and that's when we realized, OK, we need to get out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOBBS: Police now say this was not an accident, and one person is responsible for the carnage.

And then, "Decision Day" for Secretary of State nominee Condoleezza Rice. We'll be joined by one senator who supported her nomination, one who voted against it, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Police in Los Angeles tonight say an abandoned suicide attempt caused a train derailment and killed at least 10 people. More than 100 people were injured in the early rush-hour crash.

Ted Rowlands reports from Glendale, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I felt the conductor put the brakes on, and then I felt a -- like we went over a bump.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Investigators say their train hit an automobile, then derailed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, and it seemed like we were gliding along and then, all of a sudden, the impact, and, you know, people were moaning. There were people, you know, that fell forward.

ROWLANDS: The train ran into another commuter train moving in the opposite direction, then crashed into a Union Pacific train parked nearby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was sitting where -- when I fell forward, I hit a wall.

ROWLANDS: Passengers say it was dark and doors were shut while they tried to get out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was all like steamy in there and things you see on TV. You know, like it's really steamy, and you can hear hoses broken and people screaming and -- you know, so the first thing to do was just to get out.

ROWLANDS: The injured were taken to five different area hospitals. Dozens of others were treated at triage centers at the scene. Police investigators say the accident was caused by a 26-year- old suicidal man who parked his car on the tracks.

RANDY ADAMS, GLENDALE POLICE CHIEF: Our information initially is that he was suicidal and had really attempted a variety of forms of taking his life, including placing his car on the tracks as one of the potential ways to commit suicide. However, apparently, he changed his mind because he exited the vehicle, leaving the vehicle on the tracks prior to it being struck.

ROWLANDS: One of the dead has been identified as Los Angeles County Sheriff Deputy James Chutino (ph). He, like most of the other passengers, was on his way to work.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Glendale, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DOBBS: The crash among a number around the country today. In Florida, eight school children were injured when their school bus overturned in Hernando Beach. The driver was also injured. Police say none of those injuries are believed to be life threatening.

In Maryland, police say a truck driver trying to avoid an accident swerved on a bridge approach and plunged 70 feet into a creek. It took rescuers 30 minutes to free the driver from the truck. He is tonight in serious condition. The accident, south of Baltimore, forced the closure of northbound lanes on I-95 for an hour and a half.

Still ahead here, after a tough battle on Capitol Hill, the Senate has reached a decision on whether to confirm Condoleezza Rice. Two leading senators join me next who voted in opposite directions.

Some say Social Security is not a crisis. Some say it is. We'll hear both sides of the issue in tonight's "Face Off" and try to ascertain the truth, reality.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In just a moment we'll hear from two senators who have two very different views and opinions about the confirmation of Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state. But first, these stories tonight.

Residents in New England aren't through digging out yet. More snow hit the area today slowing traffic and again commuter trains. The National Weather Service is calling for up to 10 inches more of snow in Boston and Cape Cod.

Identity theft over the Internet may not be as common as many think. A new report shows just 12 percent of identity thefts last year were carried out over the Internet. 72 percent were offline. This new report indicates thieves are making more of the money they are picking through trash and obtaining lost and stolen wallets.

The crew of the International Space Station successfully installed new equipment today during a space walk. The astronauts also discovered a mysterious residue on some of the spacecraft's vents, residue that may be responsible for sporadic problems with the oxygen generator that has been plaguing the station from almost the outset.

The U.S. Senate today confirmed Condoleezza Rice as secretary of state by a vote of 85-13. Many Democrats were sharply critical of Rice's role in the run-up to the Iraq war. Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota opposed her confirmation. He says she misled Congress repeatedly and intentionally about the situation in Iraq. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas voted in the favor of Rice's confirmation. The senator says Dr. Rice has the capability and experience to be a great secretary of state. Good to have you both with us.

Let me start first by -- there was no surprise in this confirmation, Senator Dayton. We were told all along that it would occur. It occurred. She was confirmed by an overwhelming margin. Why was it important to protract these hearings?

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D-MN), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Well, we just said we wanted to have nine hours of debate and the leadership, because of the inaugural activities last week, decided to hold that yesterday rather than last Thursday or Friday, which I certainly understand but it was not our intention to hold up this confirmation. And, you know, we have a role and responsibility under the constitution in the Senate to not just rubber stamp, but to consider carefully and then to state our views and we took that, and I think that's just exercising our role responsibly.

DOBBS: Senator Dayton suggests that it's the responsibility of the Senate, Senator Hutchison, to take that role seriously. At the same time, an overwhelming disposition not to hold Condoleezza Rice responsible, accountable, for absolutely misguided intelligence and statements about that misguided intelligence in the run-up to the war, Senator Hutchison. Do you think there should have been a higher degree of accountability on her part, on the administration's part?

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON (R-TX), APPROPRIATIONS CMTE.: Well, I think all of us lament the breakdown of our intelligence system. I think the breakdown of our system allowed 9/11 to happen. We were taken by surprise. Now we are certainly wiser, and I don't think that you can hold Condoleezza Rice, the national security adviser, accountable for that. Clearly it was an intelligence failure. And I don't think she would ever intentionally not tell the truth to the American people, and I don't think anyone who is thinking would accuse her or the president of something deliberate.

DOBBS: Are you thinking, Senator Dayton?

DAYTON: I think that we were misinformed or not told the truth. The American people were not told the truth leading up to the Senate vote on the Iraq War resolution in October of 2002, and the American people -- and we were not told the truth thereafter. Some of it's come to light that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. That's a benefit of hindsight certainly but we now find that there were experts in the administration, the U.S. Department of Energy, who disputed this view that these aluminum tubes could only be used for nuclear weapons development.

We were never told that there were alternative views and even if that had not been known at the time, weeks or months later, we were never informed. Just as the American people were never informed after the president spoke in a State of the Union address the following January about an inaccuracy there that her deputy took responsibility for. But I think she should have been informed. That was not disclosed until the press brought it to light six months later.

These are not semantic differences, these are decisions that were made based on information provided by the administration, including the president and vice president, on which we got commitment to war, where over 1,400 Americans have lost their lives and over 10,000 have been wounded, maimed for life. We have profound consequences for this nation, the world. These are profoundly important matters, and my colleagues on the other side of the aisle impeached the president who preceded this one for not being -- fully disclosing to the American people and this goes way beyond that.

DOBBS: Senator Hutchison, would you want to respond to that?

HUTCHISON: Well, yes, I think that all of us are very concerned about the intelligence breakdown, but I don't think it's fair to attribute that to Condoleezza Rice or to the president. I think that is totally unfair. And I think that if we are talking about a secretary of state, we want someone who has the trust of the president and when foreign leaders deal with her, know that she and the president are on the same wavelength. And I think she will be a great secretary of state.

DOBBS: And let me ask you both, after nine hours of hearings and over an extra week's time, do you have the sense, as one who did watch a good part of those hearings, do you all have a good sense of how the State Department will be run different differently, how diplomacy will be pursued differently, if at all by Secretary Rice? Do you have a sense of the initiatives and the values and the strategy that's going to be employed by this secretary of state and this administration, vis-a-vis North Korea, Iran, Europe, China? If I may, Senator Hutchison?

HUTCHISON: Yes, I think that this secretary of state is taking on a different set of issues from the previous one. And I think she is going to start working with our European allies to get them more engaged in the war on terrorism. It is incredible that other countries have not come into the war on terrorism, bought into it as an assault on freedom wherever it may be in the world not just a United States issue.

Secondly, I think she is going to deal with North Korea in the way that has been done in the past. I think it's been the right thing to bring others in. China, Japan, multilateral talks with North Korea, not bilateral talks. I think she will continue that. And I think it is the right approach.

DOBBS: Senator -- I'm sorry to interrupt. We're just about out of time. Senator Dayton, I want to give you, if I may, the last word. We're basically out of time, but you get the last word.

DAYTON: I wish her well, we all do. We've gone through this process. She's the president's secretary of state. I want them both to succeed for the sake of our country.

DOBBS: Absolutely. Senator Dayton, Senator Hutchison, thank you for being here this evening.

Following up now on a story we brought you earlier this month. The New Mexico House of Representatives today voted unanimously in favor of a plan that would substantially increase benefits for members of the New Mexico National Guard. Governor Bill Richardson's proposal calls for $250,000 in life insurance to be paid for by the state government. The current life insurance benefits for our troops is $12,000.

The New Mexico State Senate has yet to vote on the legislation, but the bill appears to have strong and persuasive support. If passed, it would be the first of its kind anywhere in the country.

Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Many of you wrote in about our report last night on the minutemen project, about hundreds of American citizens patrolling one of the busiest stretches of the U.S./Mexican border.

Suzanne Grant of Farmingville, New York, "I support the project and hope it gets the attention of all of our elected officials who have been sit on the fence about illegal immigration. The war on terror cannot be fought with our borders open."

John Hughes in Armagh, Pennsylvania, "I certainly approve of American citizens protecting the border. We as citizens should have the right to defend ourselves against illegal aliens who are harming our labor force, a drain on our education system and jeopardizing our national security."

And Peggy Buesen of California, "Lou, this immigration crisis is no longer a Republican or Democrat problem. The vast majority of Americans want our borders closed and patrolled and oppose any form of amnesty. Our country is at war and our borders remain unprotected, risking the safety and lives of American citizens."

We love hearing from you. E-mail us at loudobbs@CNN.com.

A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. The question, "Do you support Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses?" Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up shortly.

One Jersey construction worker won't be watching the Super Bowl on television, he'll be playing in it. The Philadelphia Eagles asked former tight end Jeff Thomason who hasn't played football in two years to fill in for injured starter tight end Chad Lewis. Thomason took the call while he was working for a construction company in New Jersey.

Thomason says he's the luckiest guy in the world. The Eagles take on the New England Patriots a week from Sunday.

Still ahead here tonight, securing our future. Our "Face-Off" tonight on whether the U.S. government really needs to reform Social Security and whether the proposals, indeed, would do that.

And then, greed on trial. How prosecutors are take on three of corporate America's most notorious CEOs. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: An astonishing statement today by a top Chinese economist. A statement that is a clear warning to anyone who is still complacent about the rise of Chinese economic power. Speaking in Davos, Switzerland, the director of China's National Economic Research Institute said China has lost faith in the stability of the U.S. dollar because of its falling value.

He said China must reduce its dependence on the dollar and diversify into the Euro and the Yen. The Chinese economist also stressed China believes it has no need to revalue its currency, that of course means Chinese exports to this country will remain artificially cheap. Our already record huge, record trade deficit with China will continue to worsen. And even more Americans will lose their jobs because of the flood of low-priced imports.

President Bush today said now is the time to reform Social Security. He said that before, of course, and he will say it again. The president's proposals include privatizing a portion of Social Security.

The proposal is the subject of our "Face-Off" tonight. Joining me now to debate the issue from Capital Hill, Congresswoman Rosa DeLauro of Connecticut. She believes the only crisis in Social Security is one manufactured by the White House.

Sitting next to her, Congressman Jim Kolbe of Arizona who believes something needs to be done now or tax increases and benefit cuts are unavoidable.

We thank you for being here.

Let me begin with you Congressman Kolbe? Why now? The Social Security administration itself says plenty of money for the next, at least, 37 years, almost four decades. What's the problem? REP. JIM KOLBE, (R) KOLBE: Well, it's not true that there's enough for 37 years because what you have in the next, about 3 years, you'll have a declining amount of revenues coming into the Social Security trust fund. In about the year 2018, the revenues will be less than the benefits being paid out. And in 37 years, or roughly 37 years we exhaust all the IOUs. So, the problem is a cash flow problem. And it is now. And the longer you wait to deal with it, the more difficult it becomes.

DOBBS: Congresswoman DeLauro are you persuaded, I mean, the Social Security Administration says very clear to me that there really the fund is fine for four decades. Congressman Kolbe says no. What do you say?

REP. ROSA DELAURO, (D) CONNECTICUT: Well, I say the congressional budget office has just told us that the Social Security system is solvent until 2052, we're talking about 47 years. In addition, at that time, 80 percent of benefits can be paid.

This is a manufactured crisis. Does Social Security have challenges, Yes. Is there a crisis? No. And lest we forget, Social Security is the most successful, efficient, middle class retirement program. Two-thirds of seniors rely on it for half their income. Today's retirees, tomorrow retirees, they've earned those benefits.

And we are looking at an administration that's manufactured a crisis in order to put in place a privatization system that is a radical plan that will cut benefits 40 percent. That will add $2 trillion to the deficit, and leave that deficit to those younger Americans that they say they are trying to help.

DOBBS: What do you say Congressman Kolbe. Are you in this for the long haul? Are you with the administration all the way? There are a lot of issues to take on.

KOLBE: For 9 years we've been sprucing, I've been introducing a bill on Social Security reform. It's not privatization. And there is -- I've never used the word crisis, but there is a problem with Social Security. And we do need to make sure Social Security is there, not only for those who retire today, but for those in the future.

And this is just a classic example, one of those things where people say postpone now, don't do the tough things. Don't make those tough choices now. We need to do it now while we can do it, while it's fiscally possible to do it. But there is a problem with Social Security. It's a cash flow problem.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to know people are living longer, more people are retiring and fewer people are coming into the workforce to pay the taxes.

DOBBS: Congressman Bill Thomas, the chairman of the Ways and Means Committee introduces race and gender into the issue. The president as well on race. I mean, how complicated is this going to get? How -- I mean, we're pushing in some levels, don't you think, both of you, the boundaries of absurdity because Congress, Democrats and Republicans, administrations from as for back as memory will take us, pushes the fact that all those unfunded liabilities are off budget. We're not going to deal with those. And that we're not going to have to cut benefits or raise taxes. How do we deal with that, folks?

DELAURO: Lou, let me say this. First of all, I applaud my colleague who has introduced legislation. But with all due respect, the legislation also, you know, has mandatory private accounts and it cuts benefits. The fact of the matter is we're talking about 47 years. We have time to examine, carefully, some of the -- as I said there are challenges. Let's examine carefully. We did this in 1983. And first of all, let me just say the Democrats are ready, willing and able to have an open discussion, a -- a bipartisan discussion in the same way that we did in 1983 where there were lots of items...

DOBBS: My goodness, we raised taxes, we're paying 12 -- over 12 percent taxes, for Social Security. The Greenspan Commission brought those taxes forward so this would not happen.

What's going to be required here Congressman Kolbe?

KOLBE: Well, that's exactly the point. That's why if you don't make any changes and want to keep the benefits the same you'd have to raise the taxes considerably in the future to do that. We're not talking about mandatory private accounts, we're going to be talking about personal accounts that are going to be an asset that people are going to own. It's going to belong to them, it's something that they can take with them. A 48-year-old single mother today raises her kids and they're over 21, and she dies of a heart attack -- gets nothing from social security. Not one dime from it. We're talking about an asset that would actually belong to people and something they can pass along to their heirs.

DELAURO: Well, that there's a fallacy in the system is that, in fact, what happens is that what you are going to do, as I say, you're going to cut 40 percent of the benefits. There's...

KOLBE: No.

DOBBS: I got...

DELAURO: Well, that's in the literature. In addition to which, what happens is 80 percent of those accounts when those younger American retire have to go back. That's a little known fact.

DOBBS: I apologize. Congressman Kolbe, you get the last word.

KOLBE: Well, I would just say that now is the time to be thinking about this. Let's not wait until there really is a crisis. I've never used that word crisis but there is a problem. It's a cash flow problem. Young people instictively understand this. They know there's a problem. We need to deal with it now.

DOBBS: Well, Congressman Kolbe, I want to congratulate you for not calling it a crisis, because I think the facts speak for themselves. I salute you for doing that. I know it's difficult for you not to fall into the orthodox on this particular issue, and we thank you for your leadership.

And Congressman Delauro, as awlays, great to talk with you. We appreciate your insights as always. Thank you both.

DELAURO: Apperciate it.

DOBBS: Greed is on trial. Once prestiguous CEOs stand accused of massive corporate corruption. We'll have that special report, next. Please stay with us.

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DOBBS: Tonight, greed on trial. Three high-profile criminal trials begin this week against former CEOS. They are all accused of abusing the empires they managed while their employees and shareholders suffered.

Christine Romans has the report.

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CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bernie Ebers (ph), the Mississippi coach turned telecom king. Dennis Kozlowski from a humbled Newark upbringing to yachts and plush Manhattan apartments. And Richard Scrushi (ph), one-time gas station attendance who founded Healthsouth in 1984 and plastered his name all over buildings across Alabama.

JACOB ZAANSKY, SHAREHOLDERS' ATTORNEY: Three imperial CEO's have been knocked off their perch. Each of the three CEOs are being accused of lying and cheating and stealing from their own companies.

ROMANS: Ebbers gets the prize for biggest collapse. An $11 billion accounting fraud dragged WorldCom into the largest bankruptcy in American history. In court today, his lawyers painting him as another victim of the fraud.

A few blocks away, Kozlowski is on trial for looting Tyco of $600 million by forgiving loans and by wild personal spending.

And perhaps the most colorful of the trio on trial this week, Scrushy of Healthsouth. He's charged with a $2.7 billion accounting fraud. When he's not proclaiming his innocence, he's preaching -- on corruption and redemption.

Three CEOs and three terrible corporate breakdowns, now it all comes down to intent.

IRA SORKIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: The CEO may have been negligent. He may have been careless. He may have been stupid. He may have been unaware because he chose not to be aware because of his incompetence of what was going on. But that does not make it a criminal case.

ROMANS: Small consolation for furious shareholders.

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ROMANS: As Kozlowski, Ebers and Scrushy fight for their freedom, shareholders have little to fight for. Thousands of dollars, thousands of jobs, whole retirements are gone, and there are concerns that corporate reform is black sliding. Already, Lou, business lobbies are pushing to ease back on Sarbanes/Oxley reform legislation.

DOBBS: Well, their push is going to get a push back. I'm pretty confident that the Congress is not ready to play that game, and I hope the administration. Those are going to be three interesting trials. Thirteen people over the course of the worst corporate scandals in this country's history, 13 people have gone to jail. Thanks, Christine.

Still ahead -- the results of "Tonight's Poll" and we'll have a preview for you of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

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DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight -- 94 percent of you support Congressman Sensenbrenner's bill to stop illegal aliens, potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country. We'll send those results along.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. A Congresswoman who says the Iraqi election is the least worst situation -- will be our guest. A former Bush cabinet member who says the Republican Party has taken a dangerous turn to the right. Please be with us.

Thanks for being with us tonight. For all us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.

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