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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Bush Asks World Leaders to Support New Democracy in Iraq; Vote Counting Begins in Iraq; 'Outsourcing Marine One'
Aired January 31, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, one day after Iraq achieved what some Democrats said was impossible, holding free elections, some of those same Democrats insist the president must develop an exit strategy, and quickly.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NE), MINORITY LEADER: We need an exit strategy so we know what victory is and how we can get there.
DOBBS: Should the president of the United States offshore his helicopter? A leading senator says the escalating controversy over the Pentagon's decision to import Marine One is an affront to American workers and American taxpayers.
Outsourcers beware. Outsourcing to cheap overseas labor market has contributed to the stagnation of wages in this country and the loss of American jobs. It turns out it may not be such a good deal for the companies outsourcing those jobs either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We haven't had any Indian programmers that have made it to the finals of any of our contests over the last three years.
DOBBS: And big red, exporting American computer technology to China. Is IBM's unprecedented deal with China threat to our national security? One of the most powerful committee chairmen in Congress says that's exactly what it is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, January 31. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
One day after the Iraqi elections, the top Democrats in Congress today demanded a clear exit strategy for our troops from Iraq. Senate Minority Leader Senator Harry Reid said it's time for the United States to figure out a way to withdraw with dignity. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said the president must take steps to allow our troops to come home.
The White House declared it would be a mistake to set a timetable for U.S. withdrawal. Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John. JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, that partisan dust-up proof that even as the White House celebrates what it believes is an historic achievement, yesterday's elections in Iraq, and what it believes will be an impact not just in Iraq but around the Middle East and the world, the White House also realizing it must deal, as well, with a changing political climate back here in the United States.
As the votes are being counted in Iraq, as you noted Democrats back here in Washington saying now that Iraq has held elections it is time for the president to be more clear, perhaps beginning with his State of the Union address Wednesday night, as to what happens next with the U.S. military mission in Iraq.
This, of course, at a time the president is asking for billions more, the top Democrat in the Senate today saying the burden is on the president to tell the American people what is the strategy, how long will it take, when will the troops come home?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID: We need an exit strategy, so that we know what victory is and how we can get there, so we know what we need to do and so that we know when the job is done. Iraq is clearly important, but there are so many bigger threats to our national security, and this administration needs to do a better job focusing on the big picture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, the White House says those Democrats are in far too much of a hurry to get any exit timetable, the White House saying the elections are indeed historic, that Iraq is now on the path to democracy, but only in an early step on that path.
There needs to be the drafting of a new constitution. There needs to be the replacement of the interim government with a new government. There also needs to be, the White House says, an aggressive effort to improve the training of Iraqi forces. Any discussion of a timetable, any pressure for a timetable, the White House says, is out of bounds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Timetables send the wrong message to the terrorists, because all terrorists have to do is wait, and then they can plan and coordinate and prepare attacks around those timetables.
The timetable is based on completing the mission. And part of completing the mission is training and equipping Iraqi security forces, and making sure that they have the command structure so that they're fully ready to defend their country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, as it fends off the criticism from Democrats, the president also reaching out to other world leaders, phone conversations with several leaders in the neighborhood, if you will -- Iraq's neighbors Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, as well -- the president speaking to the leaders of those nations, asking them to support this new democracy in Iraq.
The president also calling several European leaders, including his friend, the Britain prime minister, Tony Blair, and two sharp critics of the Iraq war, the German chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, and the French president, Jacques Chirac.
The White House says Mr. Bush wants to work looking forward, not stir up the bitter debate over the war once more, international help perhaps, even from the NATO alliance in the short term, accelerating the training of those Iraqi troops.
But Lou, some here at the White House also privately saying as Mr. Bush spoke to Chancellor Schroeder and President Chirac and listening to the European celebration of the Iraqi elections, some here at the White House saying, well, those elections, of course, never would have taken place if Saddam Hussein were still in power -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much. John King, our senior White House correspondent.
In Iraq, the fighting goes on: another four U.S. Marines killed in combat today. Three Marines were killed south of Baghdad; a fourth was killed in Al Anbar province west of Baghdad.
Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi today declared that Iraq has begun a new era, despite the continuing violence. He called upon Iraqis to set aside their differences after the election.
Anderson Cooper has the report from Baghdad -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, good evening.
The vote counting has begun in each province where people voted. Then all those votes, the ballots are being brought physically here to Baghdad, where tomorrow morning about four or five hours from now, the recounting, the official counting will begin.
Again, as you well know, Lou, not going to get any results for seven to 10 days, according to Iraqi election officials.
Meanwhile, Al Jazeera has aired a video purporting to show the shooting down of that British Hercules plane yesterday, 10 British forces killed in that crash, though officially, though this video, which is very dramatic -- you see two rockets being fired, two rockets going up, and you see the -- what looks like the residue of a C-130 on the ground, British military sources at this point say they cannot -- while they cannot rule out enemy fire, they simply do not know what caused this crash.
And there are some questions by some military analysts have been raised about the -- about the accuracy of this video, what in fact it may really show, because it is edited -- edited -- different images edited together.
So the investigation into that crash continues.
And there has been some uprising if you will, at Camp Buka, which is a detainee facility in southeastern Iraq near Umm Qasr. Six Iraqi detainees were injured, four of them were killed, but that uprising was put down in about 45 minutes after the use of lethal force by U.S. guards -- Lou.
DOBBS: Anderson, thank you very much. Anderson Cooper, live from Baghdad.
Well, as Anderson just reported, military officials say insurgents may have shot down a British C-130 Hercules transport aircraft, the crash near Baghdad yesterday. British authorities acknowledging that possibility today.
The loss of the aircraft is raising new questions about the safety of American aircraft and helicopters, as well, throughout Iraq.
Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This videotape aired on the Arabic television channel Al Jazeera purports to show a surface-to-air missile or missiles fired by insurgents at the British transport plane, followed by the aftermath: flames, then wreckage strewn over a wide area.
Experts say the wreckage shown on the tape, including this engine, does seem to be consistent with a C-130 flown by the Royal Air Force, but it's impossible to tell, they say, if the crudely edited missile launching sequence is legitimate.
GEN. DON SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The launcher box appears to be totally bogus to me. That's a launcher box that's consistent with IEDs, improvised explosive devices, the type that they use on roadsides.
MCINTYRE: The C-130 crashed about 20 miles north of Baghdad on a short hop to Balad. The weather was good, there was no distress call, and hostile fire has not been ruled out.
SIR JOCK STIRRUP, BRITISH AIR CHIEF MARSHAL: On the Web there's a great deal of speculation about what caused this crash, not the least because of the video that we've seen today, purporting of a missile shooting down an aircraft. We all want to know what caused it, and we all want to know that as quickly as we can, but we have to find out the facts.
MCINTYRE: Insurgents have targeted aircraft using Baghdad International Airport with surface to air missiles in the past, forcing U.S. and coalition planes to use steep takeoffs or corkscrew landings to make them more harder to hit. In November of 2003, a DHL cargo plane limped back to Baghdad after losing its hydraulic system when its wing was hit by what appeared to be a heat-seeking shoulder fired missile.
A month later, a U.S. C-17 landed safely at Baghdad after a similar missile hit one of its engines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: So Lou, we know that insurgents in the past have tried to shoot down U.S. and coalition planes. What we don't know is if they succeeded this time. A British Air Force investigation will attempt to answer that question -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
And we should point out two separate groups, insurgent groups, including one associated with the al Qaeda, have claimed responsibility for the crash of that C-130.
Troops and police in Kuwait today arrested a radical Islamist terrorist leader after a shootout near Kuwait City. Kuwaiti security forces stormed a building where the radical Islamist leader was hiding. Four radical Islamic terrorists were killed in the assault.
This the second straight day of fighting between Kuwaiti security forces and radical Islamist terrorists. Kuwait is a major staging area for American troops deployed in Iraq.
Still ahead here tonight, an astonishing new attack on the United States by Venezuela's so-called strong man, Hugo Chavez. Chavez is now selling oil to our biggest economic competitor and rival.
And "Offshoring Marine One." It's an affront to American workers and taxpayers. That's the view of a leading U.S. senator who will join us here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Venezuela's radical President Hugo Chavez is doing his best, apparently, to destabilize his country's relationship with the United States. Chavez has been openly critical of what he calls North American imperialism and President Bush. Now Chavez is selling oil to China, and he's threatening to cut off oil shipments to this country.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the radical- leaning world social forum in Brazil, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez again sought to antagonize the United States. The man who was the first head of state to visit Saddam after the first Gulf war, who signed business deals with Iran, even publicly called President Bush "an a-hole" now is cozying up to China. Venezuela is the world's fifth largest oil exporter and supplies 13 percent of this country's petroleum. There are concerns some of that oil may be headed to China after a set of investment agreements announced Sunday.
ROGER TISSOT, PFC ENERGY: This is more of a political drive by the government of Venezuela to diversify (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with other countries and reduce its dependency on the U.S. exports and markets and relationships.
WIAN: Venezuela is likely to lose money selling oil to China because of the distance involved in shipping and because most Chinese refineries can't process heavy Venezuelan crude. But, as Chavez demonstrated in Brazil, he's more concerned about opposing the United States than deals that make economic sense.
HUG CHAVEZ, PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA (through translator): North American imperialism is not invincible. There is Vietnam. There are the people of Iraq resisting the troops and the invasion. There is revolutionary Cuba for 40 years resisting North American imperialism.
WIAN: While Chavez has threatened to cut off Venezuelan oil shipments to the United States, the only action he's taken is to cancel two U.S. oil exploration deals. Venezuela's U.S. oil-refining subsidiary Citgo says there's plenty of crude to supply the U.S. and new customers.
Citgo refines about 700,000 barrels of Venezuelan crude a day. The company earned $400 million during the first nine months of last year and declared a $400 million dividend payable to the Venezuelan government last month.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: High crude oil prices have turned Citgo into a cash cow for the Venezuelan government. Even so, there are reports Chavez is planning to sell Citgo, an effort to further distant his country from the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Casey. It looks as though Hugo Chavez is interested in perhaps seeing greater democratization in his particularly part of the world. What do you think?
WIAN: Well, he's certainly trying to play to his supporters. The radical agenda that he has set out during his six-year administration, these attacks on the United States play well with those people who support him -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
Mexico is stepping up its attacks on this country's immigration laws. The Arizona Republic reports Mexico's foreign secretary is now threatening to challenge Arizona's new Proposition 200 law in an international court. Luis Ernesto Derbez says Mexico hopes to block that law in U.S. courts and, if that doesn't work, an international tribunal.
Proposition 200 is designed to prevent millions of illegal aliens from voting and abusing state benefits and services. Arizona is the state where most illegal aliens enter this country, most of them from Mexico.
We'll have much more on the latest issues of hypocrisy and challenges from the Mexican government. I'll be joined by Congressman David Dreier. He says it's simply a huge mistake for Mexico to challenge the United States. He's our guest.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. In your opinion, has the United States lost control of its borders? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up later here in the broadcast.
There are new concerns tonight about the numerous shipments of hazardous materials in this country after a train derailment in Pennsylvania. A freight train loaded with a dangerous steel-making chemical derailed in a Pittsburgh suburb and forced the evacuation of 200 homes. Some of the cars carrying anhydrous hydrogen fluoride slid into the Allegheny River. There are no reports of injuries.
The accident comes just weeks just after nine people were killed when a train crashed in South Carolina unleashing a cloud of deadly chlorine gas.
Every day in this country, an estimated 800,000 shipments of hazardous material travel by plane, ship, train or truck. Today, the federal government began conducting criminal background checks on truck drivers who transport those dangerous cargoes, but some truckers say it will do little to protect our national security.
Jeanne Meserve reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB WELLER, DRIVER, HAHN TRANSPORTATION: I'm Bob Weller. I've been driving for 30 years for Hahn Transportation, a tanker driver. I haul gas, all kinds of petroleum products.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Monday, Bob Weller's truck is loaded with 8,700 gallons of gasoline. It is a potential bomb.
WELLER: You think about it. Sure you shy about it. I don't think anybody would be a fool not to think about that.
MESERVE: The federal government has thought about it, too, and is changing the rules of the road.
ED KEARNY, HAHN TRANSPORTATION: From this day forward, anyone that goes for a HAZMAT endorsement will have to undergo background checks.
MESERVE: Background checks and fingerprints for that special license permission. It is the second phase of a program mandated by Congress and intended to keep terrorists and anyone with certain felony convictions from getting behind the wheel of a truck hauling hazardous cargo, like chlorine or propane. It will be five years before all 2.7 million HAZMAT drivers in the U.S. are checked out.
JUSTIN OBERMAN, TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION: This program overall is going to make it much more difficult for terrorists to have direct or indirect access to hazardous materials, and we feel it's going to be a major step forward.
MESERVE: The 1993 World Trade Center bombing and Timothy McVeigh's attack on the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City were conducted with rental trucks crammed with explosives. The new checks wouldn't have stopped them, nor would they prevent a terrorist from simply taking a truck.
BARBARA WINDSOR, PRESIDENT, HAHN TRANSPORTATION: Anyone can hijack a truck, and, with a CDL, get into it and drive it. It's not that a HAZMAT endorsement is going to keep anyone from taking one of our trucks.
MESERVE: Truckers will pay about $100 out of their own pockets to undergo scrutiny many would rather avoid.
WELLER: They're going to find out it's going to be a hassle, and they're not going to want to do it.
MESERVE: Ultimately, it may reduce the number of HAZMAT truckers for what some view as a marginal increase in security.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Mink, Louisiana, the residents there are celebrating big news tonight. They finally have regular telephone service. The tiny town of 15 households is located just about 25 miles south of Natchitoches. Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco marked the occasion by calling 83-year-old Mink resident Alma Louise Bolton. Others celebrated with a fish fry and, we were told, ample liquid refreshment.
Still ahead here tonight, a "New Assault on the Middle Class.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETER STARK (D), CALIFORNIA: There aren't many families working today that have got a spare four grand around that they can use for a serious illness that could come up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Why some are warning that working men and women in this country could soon pay a lot more for their health care.
And then, shattering a myth about where the world's best computer programmers are based. Companies that ship American jobs overseas just don't want to miss our next report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Some leading Republicans tonight are pushing for a massive shake-up in our health-care system. Those Republicans, many of them working quietly, want to shift the burden of most health-care costs away from employers to working Americans. The result could be much higher health-care costs for middle-class Americans.
Lisa Sylvester has the report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Health Savings Accounts, or HSAs as they are commonly called, could wind up the backbone of a new health-care system under President Bush. Individuals choose high-deductible insurance plans and set aside the deductibles costs in a tax-free accounts.
Employers argue that if individuals have to pay from a fixed account, they will be more selective when they go to the doctor's office.
KATE SULLIVAN HARE, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: A lot of patients don't even ask the price. If they're used to paying a $15 co-pay, you may not realize that that annual trip to your doctor is now $150 or more because all you ever pay is a $10 bill and a $5 bill.
SYLVESTER: If HSAs replace traditional health insurance, the average worker could end up paying more out of pocket for health costs.
SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: The big concern is whether individuals all by themselves are going to have the kind of bargaining power that will be necessary to hold down the costs. When they're part of a group, when there's an employee organization or another, they'll have additional clout in the marketplace.
SYLVESTER: And some lawmakers worry working families may put cost over care.
STARK: So, if you're a family of four, you've got to have four grand for the kiddies and your wife and yourself, and that could be a real problem. There aren't many families working today that have got a spare four grand around that they can use for a serious illness that could come up.
SYLVESTER: And even in the Internet age, patients may have a hard time finding information to make informed cost-effective choices.
(END VIDEOTAPE)a
SYLVESTER: Recent studies have found the people most likely to benefit from HSAs are relatively healthy, richer Americans who can afford the high deductibles. And the people who would most likely suffer: Lower- to middle-income families and the chronically ill -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Still ahead here tonight, Congressman David Dreier, Republican of California, on the Mexican government's latest threat to this country.
Also ahead tonight, a scare for Senator Hillary Clinton. Why the senator needed medical attention today during a public event.
And our own government is planning to export production of the president's own helicopter. One leading senator says that decision is an affront to the American worker. Senator Christopher Dodd is our guest, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: In just a moment, our special report "Exporting America," a warning tonight to American companies that ship computer programming jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.
But, first, these developments tonight.
Senator Hillary Clinton today fainted during a public appearance in Buffalo, New York. Doctors say Senator Clinton is suffering from a stomach virus. After she was treated, Senator Clinton gave another speech later in the day.
Jury selection began today in the Michael Jackson trial. Jackson arrived in a California court to face multiple charges related to child molestation. Jackson is charged with 10 counts, including committing lewd acts on a child under the age of 14.
And SBC Communications today announced it would buy its former parent company AT&T for $16 billion. SBC was formed when AT&T's monopoly was broken up back in 1984. Twenty-one years later, the deal has to be approved by regulators. That process could take up to a year and a half.
Well, tonight, we begin a series of special report this week on a story we cover extensively here, the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.
Tonight, one company is shattering the myth held by many American companies and promulgated by many of those companies and business associations that American computer programmers are simply less capable, less educated, less effective and productive than their cheaper Indian counterparts in particular. In fact, the world's best programmers are most often found right here in the United States.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In head-to-head competition, American-based computer programmers win. Connecticut's TopCoder runs competitions to find the best and the brightest. The prizes are thousands of dollars and job offers from top tech companies. 76,000 contestants from all over the world have tackled TopCoder's math and science problems.
The champions come from the U.S., Poland, Canada, China and Germany. Indian programmers and universities lagged far behind. An Indian-based coder has never finished in the top ten of any division and only once has finished in the top 20.
JACK HUGHES, FOUNDER, TOPCODER: Knowing algorithms, which is really the underlying piece of any logic in a computer program, is an extremely important skill for programmers. So the fact that Indians haven't placed particularly well in our competitions to me shows that that's not being focused on enough in the education system.
ROMANS: The best programmers come from MIT, Stanford, Warsaw University, California Tech, and number five, China's Zhejiang University. Indian universities don't show up until number 60 and 89.
Technology headhunters say companies can outsource some remedial programming jobs, but the best-trained and most-productive computer architects are still educated here.
MARY VOSS, CEO, FOXHUNT STAFFING: In the United States, we have a history of technical education far beyond that of other countries, simply because we've been at it longer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: At it longer, and Lou, she says we've got to keep at it. We have got to make sure that science and math education at all levels is very important so that the United States can stay on top. That's the view from headhunters.
DOBBS: It's also the view, I think, for most educators and most people who care about American competitiveness.
Another way to look at this report that you've just shared with us is straightforward. When corporate America starts talking about running down the productivity of American workers, working men and women in this country, their lack of education, their ineffectiveness, what they're really talking about, again, code words, nothing more than for cheapest possible labor. And it's not about quality, and it's about time everybody got real.
Christine, thanks for the report. Appreciate it.
As we have just reported, the exporting of America now extends to the president's own helicopter, Marine One. My guest tonight is blasting the Pentagon for awarding a new Marine One contract to a European consortium teamed up with Lockheed Martin.
Senator Christopher Dodd of Connecticut says the contract should have gone to the American company that has built Marine One for decades, Sikorsky. Senator Dodd joins us tonight from Stamford, Connecticut. And we should point out Sikorsky, a very definite center of your constituency.
Senator Dodd, good to have you with us.
SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable decision. The senators from New York, for example, are exultant at the decision. It is remarkable to me, at least, Senator, because Lockheed Martin doesn't build helicopters.
DODD: Doesn't build them at all. It was sort of thrown into this in the end. It's basically a -- it looks very clear to many of here that this was a return of a favor to Tony Blair and Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy. They're the major winners in this.
This is exporting America's -- outsourcing America's national security. This is very dangerous. And there's a lot of evidence, evidence even in the last two days, that this was not a fair decision at all, based on the merits of the two contractors, or the several contractors competing, when you add the European and Lockheed together.
And let me just point out a couple things quickly, Lou.
DOBBS: Sure.
DODD: One is, in terms of what they call the Yankee White clearance. Now this is a method by which -- this is a highly sophisticated program. The scrutiny that you have of people working this program are such that Sikorsky brought people back from all over the world to the United States in order to pass the kind of test you have to have for people who work within this Yankee White clearance.
I don't know the Europeans are going to pass the Yankee White clearance test in order to have the kind of security that people must have in order to work on an aircraft the president will ride in almost on a daily basis.
Secondly, there are serious -- there was a report that came out January 24th by the head tester for the Department of Defense saying, "Slow down on this program. There are too many risks. "In fact, several versions of the European helicopter, the 101, have been grounded in Canada, grounded in Great Britain.
The leaders of this effort who came up with this decision have already pointed out that there are serious risks in this program. How can we possibly put the president of the United States in a helicopter that has serious risks? Those are three issues. There are many more, but those three are critical. DOBBS: You and Senator Lieberman, Joseph Lieberman, are demanding a meeting with Navy Secretary Gordon England. What's the status of that request?
DODD: We're going to get that meeting this week. The company, as well, under the rules there are allowed within the first week or so to have a review of the decision, how the decision was reached. I was very impressed here. Duncan Hunter, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, raised serious concerns about it.
It isn't just this contract. It's the precedent-setting nature. The European Union, Lou, is about to unroll a set of rules that would prohibit U.S. defense contractors from competing on any major defense contract in Europe. They also, of course, demand that we have offset contracts in Europe for every bit of business we do there. That's cutting deeply into our supply chain.
Here's a situation where Europe wins, we lose. You begin to unity cut our national security effort. It's a very dangerous situation.
DOBBS: Well, Senator Dodd, let's be candid. The U.S. Congress, the U.S. Senate, as well as the U.S. House, there are voices, yours among them -- you mentioned Congressman Duncan Hunter, Don Manzullo, who will be here later, and others.
I have been the minority, talking about the fact that we are exporting our technology, not only our jobs, our technology. We're doing so through various programs, including defense technology. It's not just about helicopters. Our viewers, by the way -- you would be impressed, Senator -- it took them only seconds when this was announced last week to say, "What's next, an Airbus Air Force One?" Any inconsistency in that?
DODD: No, you're exactly right. I've offered language in the Senate to put some real restraints on the offset contracts. The Dutch and the Europeans average 100 percent of the costs of a contract. If we do business there, they want that subcontract work. We have nothing like that in the United States. We've got to start getting tougher on these issues.
DOBBS: The offsets the senator refers to -- just to put it in plain English, and I require it by in plain English for my own comprehension, Senator, -- simply means that we are giving away all of the livestock with the farm when we go out to sell milk. Is that a fair statement?
DODD: That's exactly it. I win the contract, but I want 100 percent of the subcontract work in my country here, the value of that contract. It's just totally unfair. It goes back, Lou, to the language drafted at the end of World War II to help war-torn Europe, was the language used for offset contracts.
DOBBS: Well, we are -- this country is pretty well torn right now, in terms of what needs to be done in terms of trade policy. This unfortunately just another example. Good luck in dealing with the issue, Senator.
DODD: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: As always, good to have you here.
DODD: You bet.
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Many of you -- lots of you, hundreds and hundreds and thousands of you, have written to us about the decision to export the contract for Marine One to European companies and that consortium.
Craig Bulas in Old Lyme, Connecticut, wrote in to say: "The Navy just chose the new presidential helicopter, and it has foreign parts on it that will be made in foreign countries. Can this country get any dumber? I'm going to do my best to demand the stuff I buy be made in the USA, but I'm not sure how successful I'll be."
Craig, let me tell you. You won't be very successful. In point of fact, if you try to buy clothes, computers, or consumer electronics in this country, you have a shot if you just want to buy a car, but don't expect all of it to be made in this country, certainly.
And Ellen Murray in Woodbury, Connecticut, says: "When does Airbus start work on the new Air Force One?" A very good question.
And Richard Rothschild writes: "Corporate America is outraged that Chinese factories are producing knock offs of goods from computer chips to cars. Now let me get this right. They send our jobs overseas to save money, and now they want to cry about losing money on the other side? Corporate America, you get what you pay for."
And on the issue of illegal immigration, broken borders, Richard Boykin in Pensacola, Florida, wrote to say: "The illegal aliens are not the bad guys. They are only taking advantage of the U.S. system created by our elected officials. The real bad guys are our elected officials in Washington who redefine the term 'imbecile' daily."
We love hearing from you. I love America. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
As we reported, the Mexican government is threatening to file a complaint in an international court about Arizona's anti-illegal alien law, that is, to deny them services and benefits in the state, Proposition 200. It is now law, and it has survived a contest at the appellate level, the federal appellate level. Congressman David Dreier of California calls the threat a huge mistake on the part of the government of Mexico.
Congressman Dreier is the chairman of the House Rules Committee, a member of the Homeland Security Committee, and he joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. DAVID DREIER (D), CALIFORNIA: Always good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Congressman, I've got to ask you. This is getting -- I wish you could see the -- I have to believe your mail is echoing it.
DREIER: Absolutely.
DOBBS: The American people are getting fed up. And the Mexican government is out of its cotton-pickin' mind -- there's no other way to put it -- when they start talking about going to international courts to throw back laws that are created by the people of a sovereign state. It may not be a sovereign nation, anymore, in terms of the way the federal government is enforcing our border security, but the state of Arizona is a sovereign state. What are they thinking about?
DREIER: Well, Lou, you're absolutely right on this. I marked my finger with purple to mark our solidarity with the people of Iraq who yesterday, obviously, were able to speak.
DOBBS: Right.
DREIER: And you're correct that the people of Arizona have spoken. And there is the prospect of a court challenge. And, as you've said, it's gone through the appellate step, and it will likely go further than that.
But I have just gotten on off the phone with the undersecretary, the deputy foreign minister in Mexico, telling him that I'm very concerned about this whole issue of sovereignty. Again, the people in Arizona spoke overwhelmingly in support of this, and they want us to see us secure our borders.
And, you know, when we last spoke a week or two ago, I want to tell you that we're gaining a great deal of support for our counterfeit-proof Social Security cards so that we can reduce by 98 percent the number of illegal border crossings.
And so I've voiced my concern to the Mexican government. And I continue to believe it's a very important relationship. There's nothing that we can do, Lou, about the fact that we have this 2,000- mile border with Mexico. It's there, and we need to work with them.
And so that's why I began -- having gotten the response that you've gotten, and responding the same way myself, to let them know how concerned I am. And, frankly, I wish there had been no statement about international tribunals that had come forward from Minister Derbez.
DOBBS: Wishes here, I think, are running rampant now in this country, in terms of what Mexico is doing, and its government. Now let me quote to you from over the weekend the joint statement from Antonio Garza, our ambassador in Mexico and interior secretary -- well, foreign relations secretary -- Luis Ernesto Derbez, saying both officials noted their governments recognize that drug trafficking and associated crime do not recognize borders. Who is recognizing borders? I mean, certainly we know that the drug traffickers aren't, the human smugglers are not, the illegal aliens. Is the United States government in concert with the Mexican government, Congressman, suggesting anybody else is watching our borders?
DREIER: I will tell you, Lou, we had a meeting of Republicans this weekend with the president and the president talked about the issue of securing our borders. And you'll be interested to know that he talked about the fact that he is strongly opposed to the granting of blanket amnesty...
DOBBS: Well, Howdy Doo, isn't that a major, major concession to representing the will of the American people? I am just so relieved, Congressman.
DREIER: Lou, I just wanted you to know what the president said this weekend in the meeting that we had. But my point is, securing or borders is the top priority that we have. And that's one of the reasons that I've been working on this Social Security card, so that the attention can be focused on criminals, on the potential terrorist threat, on those drug traffickers. That's what the Border Patrol wants to do, and that's why we're trying to pass...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Congressman, you know very well, the Border Patrol right now is not even permitted to enforce the border. I mean...
DREIER: That's what we're trying to toughen up on, Lou. You know that.
DOBBS: Well, if we want to toughen it up, how can we have the Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge -- the president said that 2,000 Border Patrol agents would be added. Tom Ridge dismissed that, and says there's not money for it. And it's all a political game -- that's not his quote. That's mine. It's gamesmanship, and it's not about securing our borders.
DREIER: Lou, we are not going to -- I mean, Tom Ridge is outgoing as homeland secretary. And we are going to do everything that we can to ensure that the legislation that we've passed has the funding necessary for the Border Patrol so that we can secure our borders, which is our top priority. You know that.
DOBBS: Right. Well, Congressman Dreier, as always, we appreciate you being here.
DREIER: Always good to be with you, Lou. Thanks.
DOBBS: Come back soon, Congressman David Dreier, as we continue to explore this critical issue, that is illegal immigration and border security.
Coming up next, politics and religion. The author of the book, "God's Politics" says the right gets it wrong and the left just doesn't get it. He's our guest here next.
And selling out: How IBM's deal with China, ooh, that didn't happen quite the way they thought. It turns out that Congress is paying attention. It could compromise our national security. I'll be talking with a leading congressman who has called for an investigation. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says faith and religion are being used as weapons in American politics. Reverend Jim Wallis is the author of the new book, "God's Politics: Why the Right Gets it Wrong, and the Left Doesn't Get It."
Joining us tonight from Boston, Reverend, good to have you with us.
REV. JIM WALLIS, AUTHOR OF "GOD'S POLITICS": Great to be here, Lou. Thanks.
DOBBS: I want to compliment you. First of all, the title of your book alone, I think -- no, I don't think. It is absolutely my favorite title of the last year or two.
But the idea that faith and religion, the so-called values argument, now being used as weapons. Is it true on the part of both the left and the right?
WALLIS: Yes, I think faith, religion, values should not be used as weapons or wedges to divide us, but bridges to bring us back together again across these blue-red divides. I think, you know, this is one way we can find some common ground. You know, common ground by moving to higher ground is what we have to do now.
DOBBS: Well, now you've met with Democrats in Congress. You talk to them, if you will, to counsel them and guide them, and not entirely as members of your flock, if I may put it that way, a little more secular. What's the deal?
WALLIS: Well, neither party gets this right. The Republicans, of course, are comfortable with the language of religion and values, but then they want to narrow everything to one or two. Are there only two moral values, abortion and gay marriage? Important issues, but not the only two.
The Democrats forget they were a party linked to a civil rights movement led by black churches. Where would we be if Martin Luther King, Jr., had kept his faith to himself? So they have to find a moral vocabulary for defending working families against corporate assaults. Nine million families are working hard full-time and are falling behind. So that's a moral value, too. And they should speak in that kind of language.
DOBBS: Personally, I can find moral, and ethical, and religious values in a host political issues. Frankly, I constrain that impulse when it moves to religious values, because in religion, there are a wide, disparate set of religious beliefs that, really, I try to stay away from.
Yet you're focusing on them, and focusing on them from the Democratic or the right side, if you will. What needs to be done, if you will, to achieve parity between left and right, Republican, and Democrat, and independent in the moral-religious area?
WALLIS: Well, religion doesn't neatly fit into the categories of left and right political categories. Religion is best when it's not ideologically predictable nor loyally partisan.
But I'm an evangelical Christian, so I find 3,000 verses in the Bible about the poor, about poverty, so fighting poverty is a moral value. Protecting the environment is a moral value. How we go to war, whether we go to war, and whether we tell the truth about it, these are all moral values, too.
So we can have a better, deeper conversation and find some new common ground, I think, that brings people together across these lines. I mean, there's three billion people living on less than $2 a day, a silent tsunami claiming 30,000 children everyday because of hunger and disease related to hunger, is a moral issue that should bring us together across all of these dividing lines.
DOBBS: And the president's beliefs, his theology, his open and enthusiastic expression of his belief in God and the practice of his religion, you have no problem with that?
WALLIS: No, I've met with the president. I've been in meetings on faith-based initiatives and so on. And his personal faith is very real. It's made a difference in his life.
But I challenge -- question some of his theology. When, if we can't see evil in the face of September 11th, we're suffering from some kind of post-modern relativism, I suppose. But to say they're evil and we are good is bad theology. Jesus said you have got to see not just the speck in your adversary's eye, but the log in your own. And so I think we have to have a deeper conversation about that.
DOBBS: Well, Reverend, I'm not going to get into a theology with you, or reciting verse, but also an eye for an eye, if you will, I will part company with you on September 11th immediately. I think the people who committed that heinous crime deserve every visitation of justice that we can bring to them.
WALLIS: Oh...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But other than that, you and I are doing good together. And, Reverend, we'll have you back. And please come back soon, so we can discuss this.
WALLIS: It's great to see you, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, I'll be joined by another congressman, one of the Congress's leading committee chairmen. He says IBM's unprecedented computer deal with China could compromise our national security. Why he's so concerned, why you should be as well, and why he wants the Bush administration to stop it now. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congressman Don Manzullo of Illinois and two of his colleagues in Congress, writing a letter to the president, urging further investigation into the proposed deal between IBM and China's largest computer company. The three leading members of Congress warn that deal could pose a threat to national security.
Tonight, Congressman Manzullo says the administration has agreed to investigate IBM's deal with Lenovo.
Congressman Manzullo, chairman of the House Small Business Committee, joining us tonight from Capitol Hill. Mr. Chairman, good to have you with us.
REP. DON MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: You were raising national security concerns and issues. The first question I have got to ask you, Congressman, knowing your background here and on these issues, how in the world did this get this far without a review by the appropriate authorities?
MANZULLO: Well, that's our -- that's the whole issue, Lou, is Congressman Hyde, Congressman Hunter, and myself, and I decided that the 30-day window that was set up by Treasury to review this mammoth sale by IBM to a corporation whose largest shareholder is the Chinese government, needed more than 30 days, so we were asking all kinds of questions. We have more questions than answers now. But it's our understanding now that the federal government is going to go into the full 45-day review program to determine issues of national security and economic security.
DOBBS: Congressman, the idea that this could happen is mind- boggling to many people. You've been a free-trader for a long time. Are you becoming increasingly concerned about the transfers that are potentially present in this case, but also the broad range of transfers that are taking place in the relationship with China right now?
MANZULLO: Well, Lou, it is important -- you're always concerned, because, I mean, for example, if you want to talk about the helicopter, presidential helicopter, the European Union's going to sell weapons and armament to China. Well, the European Union is also going to be designing and manufacturing a lot of parts, if not doing the entire design, for Marine One in Europe. You know, does that mean -- you know, I think there's a problem there when you're giving engineers that could be designing for both countries.
DOBBS: Well, there's no question. And point in fact that the helicopter consortium announced today, as a matter of fact, a huge deal with China at the same time that the deal last week was announced on Marine One. Why in the world isn't there a mood in Congress to start getting rational about trade policy and the idea, as our viewers, as I said, were quick to point out. If you can do this with Marine One, why not make it an Airbus Air Force One?
MANZULLO: That's correct. And Lou, you know, with IBM, we got involved in this because of who the buyer is. The buyer's Lenovo. Lenovo was started by the Chinese Academy of Sciences, which is charged with the industrial policy for I.T. in China. They provided the venture capital. The Chinese Academy of Sciences is wholly owned by the Chinese government, but the largest shareholder in Lenovo, and when IBM completes its sale to Lenovo, Lenovo is not bound by market practices. They could come in and undercut.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: And part of the fact, they're part of a communist government, I think, is the easier way to cut to that.
MANZULLO: That's correct.
DOBBS: Congressman Manzullo, we thank you very much for being here.
MANZULLO: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: We look forward to the results of the inquiry. We appreciate it.
MANZULLO: Thank you.
DOBBS: Look forward to seeing you soon.
Still ahead here, the results of our poll tonight. We'll have a preview of what's ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: In your opinion, has the United States lost control of its borders? Ninety-six percent of you said yes. Four percent of you said no.
Ninety-six percent. Perhaps somebody in Washington should pay attention to that sort of definitive response. Thanks for participating in the poll. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow.
A leading congressman is calling for federal, state and local authorities to finally enforce our immigration laws. He's our guest tomorrow.
And also tomorrow, "Exporting America." Our special report on why India no longer may be the low cost draw it once was. And I'll be talking with one of this country's most distinguished professors who says the war in Iraq is sapping the vitality of the U.S. military. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired January 31, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOU DOBBS, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, one day after Iraq achieved what some Democrats said was impossible, holding free elections, some of those same Democrats insist the president must develop an exit strategy, and quickly.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NE), MINORITY LEADER: We need an exit strategy so we know what victory is and how we can get there.
DOBBS: Should the president of the United States offshore his helicopter? A leading senator says the escalating controversy over the Pentagon's decision to import Marine One is an affront to American workers and American taxpayers.
Outsourcers beware. Outsourcing to cheap overseas labor market has contributed to the stagnation of wages in this country and the loss of American jobs. It turns out it may not be such a good deal for the companies outsourcing those jobs either.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We haven't had any Indian programmers that have made it to the finals of any of our contests over the last three years.
DOBBS: And big red, exporting American computer technology to China. Is IBM's unprecedented deal with China threat to our national security? One of the most powerful committee chairmen in Congress says that's exactly what it is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Monday, January 31. Here now for an hour of news, debate and opinion, is Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
One day after the Iraqi elections, the top Democrats in Congress today demanded a clear exit strategy for our troops from Iraq. Senate Minority Leader Senator Harry Reid said it's time for the United States to figure out a way to withdraw with dignity. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said the president must take steps to allow our troops to come home.
The White House declared it would be a mistake to set a timetable for U.S. withdrawal. Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John. JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, that partisan dust-up proof that even as the White House celebrates what it believes is an historic achievement, yesterday's elections in Iraq, and what it believes will be an impact not just in Iraq but around the Middle East and the world, the White House also realizing it must deal, as well, with a changing political climate back here in the United States.
As the votes are being counted in Iraq, as you noted Democrats back here in Washington saying now that Iraq has held elections it is time for the president to be more clear, perhaps beginning with his State of the Union address Wednesday night, as to what happens next with the U.S. military mission in Iraq.
This, of course, at a time the president is asking for billions more, the top Democrat in the Senate today saying the burden is on the president to tell the American people what is the strategy, how long will it take, when will the troops come home?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID: We need an exit strategy, so that we know what victory is and how we can get there, so we know what we need to do and so that we know when the job is done. Iraq is clearly important, but there are so many bigger threats to our national security, and this administration needs to do a better job focusing on the big picture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, the White House says those Democrats are in far too much of a hurry to get any exit timetable, the White House saying the elections are indeed historic, that Iraq is now on the path to democracy, but only in an early step on that path.
There needs to be the drafting of a new constitution. There needs to be the replacement of the interim government with a new government. There also needs to be, the White House says, an aggressive effort to improve the training of Iraqi forces. Any discussion of a timetable, any pressure for a timetable, the White House says, is out of bounds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Timetables send the wrong message to the terrorists, because all terrorists have to do is wait, and then they can plan and coordinate and prepare attacks around those timetables.
The timetable is based on completing the mission. And part of completing the mission is training and equipping Iraqi security forces, and making sure that they have the command structure so that they're fully ready to defend their country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, as it fends off the criticism from Democrats, the president also reaching out to other world leaders, phone conversations with several leaders in the neighborhood, if you will -- Iraq's neighbors Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, as well -- the president speaking to the leaders of those nations, asking them to support this new democracy in Iraq.
The president also calling several European leaders, including his friend, the Britain prime minister, Tony Blair, and two sharp critics of the Iraq war, the German chancellor, Gerhard Schroeder, and the French president, Jacques Chirac.
The White House says Mr. Bush wants to work looking forward, not stir up the bitter debate over the war once more, international help perhaps, even from the NATO alliance in the short term, accelerating the training of those Iraqi troops.
But Lou, some here at the White House also privately saying as Mr. Bush spoke to Chancellor Schroeder and President Chirac and listening to the European celebration of the Iraqi elections, some here at the White House saying, well, those elections, of course, never would have taken place if Saddam Hussein were still in power -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much. John King, our senior White House correspondent.
In Iraq, the fighting goes on: another four U.S. Marines killed in combat today. Three Marines were killed south of Baghdad; a fourth was killed in Al Anbar province west of Baghdad.
Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi today declared that Iraq has begun a new era, despite the continuing violence. He called upon Iraqis to set aside their differences after the election.
Anderson Cooper has the report from Baghdad -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, good evening.
The vote counting has begun in each province where people voted. Then all those votes, the ballots are being brought physically here to Baghdad, where tomorrow morning about four or five hours from now, the recounting, the official counting will begin.
Again, as you well know, Lou, not going to get any results for seven to 10 days, according to Iraqi election officials.
Meanwhile, Al Jazeera has aired a video purporting to show the shooting down of that British Hercules plane yesterday, 10 British forces killed in that crash, though officially, though this video, which is very dramatic -- you see two rockets being fired, two rockets going up, and you see the -- what looks like the residue of a C-130 on the ground, British military sources at this point say they cannot -- while they cannot rule out enemy fire, they simply do not know what caused this crash.
And there are some questions by some military analysts have been raised about the -- about the accuracy of this video, what in fact it may really show, because it is edited -- edited -- different images edited together.
So the investigation into that crash continues.
And there has been some uprising if you will, at Camp Buka, which is a detainee facility in southeastern Iraq near Umm Qasr. Six Iraqi detainees were injured, four of them were killed, but that uprising was put down in about 45 minutes after the use of lethal force by U.S. guards -- Lou.
DOBBS: Anderson, thank you very much. Anderson Cooper, live from Baghdad.
Well, as Anderson just reported, military officials say insurgents may have shot down a British C-130 Hercules transport aircraft, the crash near Baghdad yesterday. British authorities acknowledging that possibility today.
The loss of the aircraft is raising new questions about the safety of American aircraft and helicopters, as well, throughout Iraq.
Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This videotape aired on the Arabic television channel Al Jazeera purports to show a surface-to-air missile or missiles fired by insurgents at the British transport plane, followed by the aftermath: flames, then wreckage strewn over a wide area.
Experts say the wreckage shown on the tape, including this engine, does seem to be consistent with a C-130 flown by the Royal Air Force, but it's impossible to tell, they say, if the crudely edited missile launching sequence is legitimate.
GEN. DON SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: The launcher box appears to be totally bogus to me. That's a launcher box that's consistent with IEDs, improvised explosive devices, the type that they use on roadsides.
MCINTYRE: The C-130 crashed about 20 miles north of Baghdad on a short hop to Balad. The weather was good, there was no distress call, and hostile fire has not been ruled out.
SIR JOCK STIRRUP, BRITISH AIR CHIEF MARSHAL: On the Web there's a great deal of speculation about what caused this crash, not the least because of the video that we've seen today, purporting of a missile shooting down an aircraft. We all want to know what caused it, and we all want to know that as quickly as we can, but we have to find out the facts.
MCINTYRE: Insurgents have targeted aircraft using Baghdad International Airport with surface to air missiles in the past, forcing U.S. and coalition planes to use steep takeoffs or corkscrew landings to make them more harder to hit. In November of 2003, a DHL cargo plane limped back to Baghdad after losing its hydraulic system when its wing was hit by what appeared to be a heat-seeking shoulder fired missile.
A month later, a U.S. C-17 landed safely at Baghdad after a similar missile hit one of its engines.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: So Lou, we know that insurgents in the past have tried to shoot down U.S. and coalition planes. What we don't know is if they succeeded this time. A British Air Force investigation will attempt to answer that question -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Jamie. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
And we should point out two separate groups, insurgent groups, including one associated with the al Qaeda, have claimed responsibility for the crash of that C-130.
Troops and police in Kuwait today arrested a radical Islamist terrorist leader after a shootout near Kuwait City. Kuwaiti security forces stormed a building where the radical Islamist leader was hiding. Four radical Islamic terrorists were killed in the assault.
This the second straight day of fighting between Kuwaiti security forces and radical Islamist terrorists. Kuwait is a major staging area for American troops deployed in Iraq.
Still ahead here tonight, an astonishing new attack on the United States by Venezuela's so-called strong man, Hugo Chavez. Chavez is now selling oil to our biggest economic competitor and rival.
And "Offshoring Marine One." It's an affront to American workers and taxpayers. That's the view of a leading U.S. senator who will join us here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Venezuela's radical President Hugo Chavez is doing his best, apparently, to destabilize his country's relationship with the United States. Chavez has been openly critical of what he calls North American imperialism and President Bush. Now Chavez is selling oil to China, and he's threatening to cut off oil shipments to this country.
Casey Wian reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the radical- leaning world social forum in Brazil, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez again sought to antagonize the United States. The man who was the first head of state to visit Saddam after the first Gulf war, who signed business deals with Iran, even publicly called President Bush "an a-hole" now is cozying up to China. Venezuela is the world's fifth largest oil exporter and supplies 13 percent of this country's petroleum. There are concerns some of that oil may be headed to China after a set of investment agreements announced Sunday.
ROGER TISSOT, PFC ENERGY: This is more of a political drive by the government of Venezuela to diversify (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with other countries and reduce its dependency on the U.S. exports and markets and relationships.
WIAN: Venezuela is likely to lose money selling oil to China because of the distance involved in shipping and because most Chinese refineries can't process heavy Venezuelan crude. But, as Chavez demonstrated in Brazil, he's more concerned about opposing the United States than deals that make economic sense.
HUG CHAVEZ, PRESIDENT OF VENEZUELA (through translator): North American imperialism is not invincible. There is Vietnam. There are the people of Iraq resisting the troops and the invasion. There is revolutionary Cuba for 40 years resisting North American imperialism.
WIAN: While Chavez has threatened to cut off Venezuelan oil shipments to the United States, the only action he's taken is to cancel two U.S. oil exploration deals. Venezuela's U.S. oil-refining subsidiary Citgo says there's plenty of crude to supply the U.S. and new customers.
Citgo refines about 700,000 barrels of Venezuelan crude a day. The company earned $400 million during the first nine months of last year and declared a $400 million dividend payable to the Venezuelan government last month.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: High crude oil prices have turned Citgo into a cash cow for the Venezuelan government. Even so, there are reports Chavez is planning to sell Citgo, an effort to further distant his country from the United States -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Casey. It looks as though Hugo Chavez is interested in perhaps seeing greater democratization in his particularly part of the world. What do you think?
WIAN: Well, he's certainly trying to play to his supporters. The radical agenda that he has set out during his six-year administration, these attacks on the United States play well with those people who support him -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much.
Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
Mexico is stepping up its attacks on this country's immigration laws. The Arizona Republic reports Mexico's foreign secretary is now threatening to challenge Arizona's new Proposition 200 law in an international court. Luis Ernesto Derbez says Mexico hopes to block that law in U.S. courts and, if that doesn't work, an international tribunal.
Proposition 200 is designed to prevent millions of illegal aliens from voting and abusing state benefits and services. Arizona is the state where most illegal aliens enter this country, most of them from Mexico.
We'll have much more on the latest issues of hypocrisy and challenges from the Mexican government. I'll be joined by Congressman David Dreier. He says it's simply a huge mistake for Mexico to challenge the United States. He's our guest.
That brings us to the subject of tonight's poll. In your opinion, has the United States lost control of its borders? Yes or no. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up later here in the broadcast.
There are new concerns tonight about the numerous shipments of hazardous materials in this country after a train derailment in Pennsylvania. A freight train loaded with a dangerous steel-making chemical derailed in a Pittsburgh suburb and forced the evacuation of 200 homes. Some of the cars carrying anhydrous hydrogen fluoride slid into the Allegheny River. There are no reports of injuries.
The accident comes just weeks just after nine people were killed when a train crashed in South Carolina unleashing a cloud of deadly chlorine gas.
Every day in this country, an estimated 800,000 shipments of hazardous material travel by plane, ship, train or truck. Today, the federal government began conducting criminal background checks on truck drivers who transport those dangerous cargoes, but some truckers say it will do little to protect our national security.
Jeanne Meserve reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOB WELLER, DRIVER, HAHN TRANSPORTATION: I'm Bob Weller. I've been driving for 30 years for Hahn Transportation, a tanker driver. I haul gas, all kinds of petroleum products.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Monday, Bob Weller's truck is loaded with 8,700 gallons of gasoline. It is a potential bomb.
WELLER: You think about it. Sure you shy about it. I don't think anybody would be a fool not to think about that.
MESERVE: The federal government has thought about it, too, and is changing the rules of the road.
ED KEARNY, HAHN TRANSPORTATION: From this day forward, anyone that goes for a HAZMAT endorsement will have to undergo background checks.
MESERVE: Background checks and fingerprints for that special license permission. It is the second phase of a program mandated by Congress and intended to keep terrorists and anyone with certain felony convictions from getting behind the wheel of a truck hauling hazardous cargo, like chlorine or propane. It will be five years before all 2.7 million HAZMAT drivers in the U.S. are checked out.
JUSTIN OBERMAN, TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION: This program overall is going to make it much more difficult for terrorists to have direct or indirect access to hazardous materials, and we feel it's going to be a major step forward.
MESERVE: The 1993 World Trade Center bombing and Timothy McVeigh's attack on the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City were conducted with rental trucks crammed with explosives. The new checks wouldn't have stopped them, nor would they prevent a terrorist from simply taking a truck.
BARBARA WINDSOR, PRESIDENT, HAHN TRANSPORTATION: Anyone can hijack a truck, and, with a CDL, get into it and drive it. It's not that a HAZMAT endorsement is going to keep anyone from taking one of our trucks.
MESERVE: Truckers will pay about $100 out of their own pockets to undergo scrutiny many would rather avoid.
WELLER: They're going to find out it's going to be a hassle, and they're not going to want to do it.
MESERVE: Ultimately, it may reduce the number of HAZMAT truckers for what some view as a marginal increase in security.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In Mink, Louisiana, the residents there are celebrating big news tonight. They finally have regular telephone service. The tiny town of 15 households is located just about 25 miles south of Natchitoches. Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco marked the occasion by calling 83-year-old Mink resident Alma Louise Bolton. Others celebrated with a fish fry and, we were told, ample liquid refreshment.
Still ahead here tonight, a "New Assault on the Middle Class.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETER STARK (D), CALIFORNIA: There aren't many families working today that have got a spare four grand around that they can use for a serious illness that could come up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Why some are warning that working men and women in this country could soon pay a lot more for their health care.
And then, shattering a myth about where the world's best computer programmers are based. Companies that ship American jobs overseas just don't want to miss our next report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Some leading Republicans tonight are pushing for a massive shake-up in our health-care system. Those Republicans, many of them working quietly, want to shift the burden of most health-care costs away from employers to working Americans. The result could be much higher health-care costs for middle-class Americans.
Lisa Sylvester has the report from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Health Savings Accounts, or HSAs as they are commonly called, could wind up the backbone of a new health-care system under President Bush. Individuals choose high-deductible insurance plans and set aside the deductibles costs in a tax-free accounts.
Employers argue that if individuals have to pay from a fixed account, they will be more selective when they go to the doctor's office.
KATE SULLIVAN HARE, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: A lot of patients don't even ask the price. If they're used to paying a $15 co-pay, you may not realize that that annual trip to your doctor is now $150 or more because all you ever pay is a $10 bill and a $5 bill.
SYLVESTER: If HSAs replace traditional health insurance, the average worker could end up paying more out of pocket for health costs.
SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: The big concern is whether individuals all by themselves are going to have the kind of bargaining power that will be necessary to hold down the costs. When they're part of a group, when there's an employee organization or another, they'll have additional clout in the marketplace.
SYLVESTER: And some lawmakers worry working families may put cost over care.
STARK: So, if you're a family of four, you've got to have four grand for the kiddies and your wife and yourself, and that could be a real problem. There aren't many families working today that have got a spare four grand around that they can use for a serious illness that could come up.
SYLVESTER: And even in the Internet age, patients may have a hard time finding information to make informed cost-effective choices.
(END VIDEOTAPE)a
SYLVESTER: Recent studies have found the people most likely to benefit from HSAs are relatively healthy, richer Americans who can afford the high deductibles. And the people who would most likely suffer: Lower- to middle-income families and the chronically ill -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much.
Lisa Sylvester.
Still ahead here tonight, Congressman David Dreier, Republican of California, on the Mexican government's latest threat to this country.
Also ahead tonight, a scare for Senator Hillary Clinton. Why the senator needed medical attention today during a public event.
And our own government is planning to export production of the president's own helicopter. One leading senator says that decision is an affront to the American worker. Senator Christopher Dodd is our guest, coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: LOU DOBBS TONIGHT continues. Here now for more news, debate and opinion, Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: In just a moment, our special report "Exporting America," a warning tonight to American companies that ship computer programming jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.
But, first, these developments tonight.
Senator Hillary Clinton today fainted during a public appearance in Buffalo, New York. Doctors say Senator Clinton is suffering from a stomach virus. After she was treated, Senator Clinton gave another speech later in the day.
Jury selection began today in the Michael Jackson trial. Jackson arrived in a California court to face multiple charges related to child molestation. Jackson is charged with 10 counts, including committing lewd acts on a child under the age of 14.
And SBC Communications today announced it would buy its former parent company AT&T for $16 billion. SBC was formed when AT&T's monopoly was broken up back in 1984. Twenty-one years later, the deal has to be approved by regulators. That process could take up to a year and a half.
Well, tonight, we begin a series of special report this week on a story we cover extensively here, the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets.
Tonight, one company is shattering the myth held by many American companies and promulgated by many of those companies and business associations that American computer programmers are simply less capable, less educated, less effective and productive than their cheaper Indian counterparts in particular. In fact, the world's best programmers are most often found right here in the United States.
Christine Romans reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In head-to-head competition, American-based computer programmers win. Connecticut's TopCoder runs competitions to find the best and the brightest. The prizes are thousands of dollars and job offers from top tech companies. 76,000 contestants from all over the world have tackled TopCoder's math and science problems.
The champions come from the U.S., Poland, Canada, China and Germany. Indian programmers and universities lagged far behind. An Indian-based coder has never finished in the top ten of any division and only once has finished in the top 20.
JACK HUGHES, FOUNDER, TOPCODER: Knowing algorithms, which is really the underlying piece of any logic in a computer program, is an extremely important skill for programmers. So the fact that Indians haven't placed particularly well in our competitions to me shows that that's not being focused on enough in the education system.
ROMANS: The best programmers come from MIT, Stanford, Warsaw University, California Tech, and number five, China's Zhejiang University. Indian universities don't show up until number 60 and 89.
Technology headhunters say companies can outsource some remedial programming jobs, but the best-trained and most-productive computer architects are still educated here.
MARY VOSS, CEO, FOXHUNT STAFFING: In the United States, we have a history of technical education far beyond that of other countries, simply because we've been at it longer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS: At it longer, and Lou, she says we've got to keep at it. We have got to make sure that science and math education at all levels is very important so that the United States can stay on top. That's the view from headhunters.
DOBBS: It's also the view, I think, for most educators and most people who care about American competitiveness.
Another way to look at this report that you've just shared with us is straightforward. When corporate America starts talking about running down the productivity of American workers, working men and women in this country, their lack of education, their ineffectiveness, what they're really talking about, again, code words, nothing more than for cheapest possible labor. And it's not about quality, and it's about time everybody got real.
Christine, thanks for the report. Appreciate it.
As we have just reported, the exporting of America now extends to the president's own helicopter, Marine One. My guest tonight is blasting the Pentagon for awarding a new Marine One contract to a European consortium teamed up with Lockheed Martin.
Senator Christopher Dodd of Connecticut says the contract should have gone to the American company that has built Marine One for decades, Sikorsky. Senator Dodd joins us tonight from Stamford, Connecticut. And we should point out Sikorsky, a very definite center of your constituency.
Senator Dodd, good to have you with us.
SEN. CHRISTOPHER DODD (D), CONNECTICUT: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: This is a remarkable decision. The senators from New York, for example, are exultant at the decision. It is remarkable to me, at least, Senator, because Lockheed Martin doesn't build helicopters.
DODD: Doesn't build them at all. It was sort of thrown into this in the end. It's basically a -- it looks very clear to many of here that this was a return of a favor to Tony Blair and Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy. They're the major winners in this.
This is exporting America's -- outsourcing America's national security. This is very dangerous. And there's a lot of evidence, evidence even in the last two days, that this was not a fair decision at all, based on the merits of the two contractors, or the several contractors competing, when you add the European and Lockheed together.
And let me just point out a couple things quickly, Lou.
DOBBS: Sure.
DODD: One is, in terms of what they call the Yankee White clearance. Now this is a method by which -- this is a highly sophisticated program. The scrutiny that you have of people working this program are such that Sikorsky brought people back from all over the world to the United States in order to pass the kind of test you have to have for people who work within this Yankee White clearance.
I don't know the Europeans are going to pass the Yankee White clearance test in order to have the kind of security that people must have in order to work on an aircraft the president will ride in almost on a daily basis.
Secondly, there are serious -- there was a report that came out January 24th by the head tester for the Department of Defense saying, "Slow down on this program. There are too many risks. "In fact, several versions of the European helicopter, the 101, have been grounded in Canada, grounded in Great Britain.
The leaders of this effort who came up with this decision have already pointed out that there are serious risks in this program. How can we possibly put the president of the United States in a helicopter that has serious risks? Those are three issues. There are many more, but those three are critical. DOBBS: You and Senator Lieberman, Joseph Lieberman, are demanding a meeting with Navy Secretary Gordon England. What's the status of that request?
DODD: We're going to get that meeting this week. The company, as well, under the rules there are allowed within the first week or so to have a review of the decision, how the decision was reached. I was very impressed here. Duncan Hunter, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, raised serious concerns about it.
It isn't just this contract. It's the precedent-setting nature. The European Union, Lou, is about to unroll a set of rules that would prohibit U.S. defense contractors from competing on any major defense contract in Europe. They also, of course, demand that we have offset contracts in Europe for every bit of business we do there. That's cutting deeply into our supply chain.
Here's a situation where Europe wins, we lose. You begin to unity cut our national security effort. It's a very dangerous situation.
DOBBS: Well, Senator Dodd, let's be candid. The U.S. Congress, the U.S. Senate, as well as the U.S. House, there are voices, yours among them -- you mentioned Congressman Duncan Hunter, Don Manzullo, who will be here later, and others.
I have been the minority, talking about the fact that we are exporting our technology, not only our jobs, our technology. We're doing so through various programs, including defense technology. It's not just about helicopters. Our viewers, by the way -- you would be impressed, Senator -- it took them only seconds when this was announced last week to say, "What's next, an Airbus Air Force One?" Any inconsistency in that?
DODD: No, you're exactly right. I've offered language in the Senate to put some real restraints on the offset contracts. The Dutch and the Europeans average 100 percent of the costs of a contract. If we do business there, they want that subcontract work. We have nothing like that in the United States. We've got to start getting tougher on these issues.
DOBBS: The offsets the senator refers to -- just to put it in plain English, and I require it by in plain English for my own comprehension, Senator, -- simply means that we are giving away all of the livestock with the farm when we go out to sell milk. Is that a fair statement?
DODD: That's exactly it. I win the contract, but I want 100 percent of the subcontract work in my country here, the value of that contract. It's just totally unfair. It goes back, Lou, to the language drafted at the end of World War II to help war-torn Europe, was the language used for offset contracts.
DOBBS: Well, we are -- this country is pretty well torn right now, in terms of what needs to be done in terms of trade policy. This unfortunately just another example. Good luck in dealing with the issue, Senator.
DODD: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: As always, good to have you here.
DODD: You bet.
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Many of you -- lots of you, hundreds and hundreds and thousands of you, have written to us about the decision to export the contract for Marine One to European companies and that consortium.
Craig Bulas in Old Lyme, Connecticut, wrote in to say: "The Navy just chose the new presidential helicopter, and it has foreign parts on it that will be made in foreign countries. Can this country get any dumber? I'm going to do my best to demand the stuff I buy be made in the USA, but I'm not sure how successful I'll be."
Craig, let me tell you. You won't be very successful. In point of fact, if you try to buy clothes, computers, or consumer electronics in this country, you have a shot if you just want to buy a car, but don't expect all of it to be made in this country, certainly.
And Ellen Murray in Woodbury, Connecticut, says: "When does Airbus start work on the new Air Force One?" A very good question.
And Richard Rothschild writes: "Corporate America is outraged that Chinese factories are producing knock offs of goods from computer chips to cars. Now let me get this right. They send our jobs overseas to save money, and now they want to cry about losing money on the other side? Corporate America, you get what you pay for."
And on the issue of illegal immigration, broken borders, Richard Boykin in Pensacola, Florida, wrote to say: "The illegal aliens are not the bad guys. They are only taking advantage of the U.S. system created by our elected officials. The real bad guys are our elected officials in Washington who redefine the term 'imbecile' daily."
We love hearing from you. I love America. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@CNN.com.
As we reported, the Mexican government is threatening to file a complaint in an international court about Arizona's anti-illegal alien law, that is, to deny them services and benefits in the state, Proposition 200. It is now law, and it has survived a contest at the appellate level, the federal appellate level. Congressman David Dreier of California calls the threat a huge mistake on the part of the government of Mexico.
Congressman Dreier is the chairman of the House Rules Committee, a member of the Homeland Security Committee, and he joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Congressman, good to have you with us.
REP. DAVID DREIER (D), CALIFORNIA: Always good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Congressman, I've got to ask you. This is getting -- I wish you could see the -- I have to believe your mail is echoing it.
DREIER: Absolutely.
DOBBS: The American people are getting fed up. And the Mexican government is out of its cotton-pickin' mind -- there's no other way to put it -- when they start talking about going to international courts to throw back laws that are created by the people of a sovereign state. It may not be a sovereign nation, anymore, in terms of the way the federal government is enforcing our border security, but the state of Arizona is a sovereign state. What are they thinking about?
DREIER: Well, Lou, you're absolutely right on this. I marked my finger with purple to mark our solidarity with the people of Iraq who yesterday, obviously, were able to speak.
DOBBS: Right.
DREIER: And you're correct that the people of Arizona have spoken. And there is the prospect of a court challenge. And, as you've said, it's gone through the appellate step, and it will likely go further than that.
But I have just gotten on off the phone with the undersecretary, the deputy foreign minister in Mexico, telling him that I'm very concerned about this whole issue of sovereignty. Again, the people in Arizona spoke overwhelmingly in support of this, and they want us to see us secure our borders.
And, you know, when we last spoke a week or two ago, I want to tell you that we're gaining a great deal of support for our counterfeit-proof Social Security cards so that we can reduce by 98 percent the number of illegal border crossings.
And so I've voiced my concern to the Mexican government. And I continue to believe it's a very important relationship. There's nothing that we can do, Lou, about the fact that we have this 2,000- mile border with Mexico. It's there, and we need to work with them.
And so that's why I began -- having gotten the response that you've gotten, and responding the same way myself, to let them know how concerned I am. And, frankly, I wish there had been no statement about international tribunals that had come forward from Minister Derbez.
DOBBS: Wishes here, I think, are running rampant now in this country, in terms of what Mexico is doing, and its government. Now let me quote to you from over the weekend the joint statement from Antonio Garza, our ambassador in Mexico and interior secretary -- well, foreign relations secretary -- Luis Ernesto Derbez, saying both officials noted their governments recognize that drug trafficking and associated crime do not recognize borders. Who is recognizing borders? I mean, certainly we know that the drug traffickers aren't, the human smugglers are not, the illegal aliens. Is the United States government in concert with the Mexican government, Congressman, suggesting anybody else is watching our borders?
DREIER: I will tell you, Lou, we had a meeting of Republicans this weekend with the president and the president talked about the issue of securing our borders. And you'll be interested to know that he talked about the fact that he is strongly opposed to the granting of blanket amnesty...
DOBBS: Well, Howdy Doo, isn't that a major, major concession to representing the will of the American people? I am just so relieved, Congressman.
DREIER: Lou, I just wanted you to know what the president said this weekend in the meeting that we had. But my point is, securing or borders is the top priority that we have. And that's one of the reasons that I've been working on this Social Security card, so that the attention can be focused on criminals, on the potential terrorist threat, on those drug traffickers. That's what the Border Patrol wants to do, and that's why we're trying to pass...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: Congressman, you know very well, the Border Patrol right now is not even permitted to enforce the border. I mean...
DREIER: That's what we're trying to toughen up on, Lou. You know that.
DOBBS: Well, if we want to toughen it up, how can we have the Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge -- the president said that 2,000 Border Patrol agents would be added. Tom Ridge dismissed that, and says there's not money for it. And it's all a political game -- that's not his quote. That's mine. It's gamesmanship, and it's not about securing our borders.
DREIER: Lou, we are not going to -- I mean, Tom Ridge is outgoing as homeland secretary. And we are going to do everything that we can to ensure that the legislation that we've passed has the funding necessary for the Border Patrol so that we can secure our borders, which is our top priority. You know that.
DOBBS: Right. Well, Congressman Dreier, as always, we appreciate you being here.
DREIER: Always good to be with you, Lou. Thanks.
DOBBS: Come back soon, Congressman David Dreier, as we continue to explore this critical issue, that is illegal immigration and border security.
Coming up next, politics and religion. The author of the book, "God's Politics" says the right gets it wrong and the left just doesn't get it. He's our guest here next.
And selling out: How IBM's deal with China, ooh, that didn't happen quite the way they thought. It turns out that Congress is paying attention. It could compromise our national security. I'll be talking with a leading congressman who has called for an investigation. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says faith and religion are being used as weapons in American politics. Reverend Jim Wallis is the author of the new book, "God's Politics: Why the Right Gets it Wrong, and the Left Doesn't Get It."
Joining us tonight from Boston, Reverend, good to have you with us.
REV. JIM WALLIS, AUTHOR OF "GOD'S POLITICS": Great to be here, Lou. Thanks.
DOBBS: I want to compliment you. First of all, the title of your book alone, I think -- no, I don't think. It is absolutely my favorite title of the last year or two.
But the idea that faith and religion, the so-called values argument, now being used as weapons. Is it true on the part of both the left and the right?
WALLIS: Yes, I think faith, religion, values should not be used as weapons or wedges to divide us, but bridges to bring us back together again across these blue-red divides. I think, you know, this is one way we can find some common ground. You know, common ground by moving to higher ground is what we have to do now.
DOBBS: Well, now you've met with Democrats in Congress. You talk to them, if you will, to counsel them and guide them, and not entirely as members of your flock, if I may put it that way, a little more secular. What's the deal?
WALLIS: Well, neither party gets this right. The Republicans, of course, are comfortable with the language of religion and values, but then they want to narrow everything to one or two. Are there only two moral values, abortion and gay marriage? Important issues, but not the only two.
The Democrats forget they were a party linked to a civil rights movement led by black churches. Where would we be if Martin Luther King, Jr., had kept his faith to himself? So they have to find a moral vocabulary for defending working families against corporate assaults. Nine million families are working hard full-time and are falling behind. So that's a moral value, too. And they should speak in that kind of language.
DOBBS: Personally, I can find moral, and ethical, and religious values in a host political issues. Frankly, I constrain that impulse when it moves to religious values, because in religion, there are a wide, disparate set of religious beliefs that, really, I try to stay away from.
Yet you're focusing on them, and focusing on them from the Democratic or the right side, if you will. What needs to be done, if you will, to achieve parity between left and right, Republican, and Democrat, and independent in the moral-religious area?
WALLIS: Well, religion doesn't neatly fit into the categories of left and right political categories. Religion is best when it's not ideologically predictable nor loyally partisan.
But I'm an evangelical Christian, so I find 3,000 verses in the Bible about the poor, about poverty, so fighting poverty is a moral value. Protecting the environment is a moral value. How we go to war, whether we go to war, and whether we tell the truth about it, these are all moral values, too.
So we can have a better, deeper conversation and find some new common ground, I think, that brings people together across these lines. I mean, there's three billion people living on less than $2 a day, a silent tsunami claiming 30,000 children everyday because of hunger and disease related to hunger, is a moral issue that should bring us together across all of these dividing lines.
DOBBS: And the president's beliefs, his theology, his open and enthusiastic expression of his belief in God and the practice of his religion, you have no problem with that?
WALLIS: No, I've met with the president. I've been in meetings on faith-based initiatives and so on. And his personal faith is very real. It's made a difference in his life.
But I challenge -- question some of his theology. When, if we can't see evil in the face of September 11th, we're suffering from some kind of post-modern relativism, I suppose. But to say they're evil and we are good is bad theology. Jesus said you have got to see not just the speck in your adversary's eye, but the log in your own. And so I think we have to have a deeper conversation about that.
DOBBS: Well, Reverend, I'm not going to get into a theology with you, or reciting verse, but also an eye for an eye, if you will, I will part company with you on September 11th immediately. I think the people who committed that heinous crime deserve every visitation of justice that we can bring to them.
WALLIS: Oh...
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: But other than that, you and I are doing good together. And, Reverend, we'll have you back. And please come back soon, so we can discuss this.
WALLIS: It's great to see you, Lou. Thank you.
DOBBS: Still ahead here tonight, I'll be joined by another congressman, one of the Congress's leading committee chairmen. He says IBM's unprecedented computer deal with China could compromise our national security. Why he's so concerned, why you should be as well, and why he wants the Bush administration to stop it now. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congressman Don Manzullo of Illinois and two of his colleagues in Congress, writing a letter to the president, urging further investigation into the proposed deal between IBM and China's largest computer company. The three leading members of Congress warn that deal could pose a threat to national security.
Tonight, Congressman Manzullo says the administration has agreed to investigate IBM's deal with Lenovo.
Congressman Manzullo, chairman of the House Small Business Committee, joining us tonight from Capitol Hill. Mr. Chairman, good to have you with us.
REP. DON MANZULLO (R), ILLINOIS: Good to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: You were raising national security concerns and issues. The first question I have got to ask you, Congressman, knowing your background here and on these issues, how in the world did this get this far without a review by the appropriate authorities?
MANZULLO: Well, that's our -- that's the whole issue, Lou, is Congressman Hyde, Congressman Hunter, and myself, and I decided that the 30-day window that was set up by Treasury to review this mammoth sale by IBM to a corporation whose largest shareholder is the Chinese government, needed more than 30 days, so we were asking all kinds of questions. We have more questions than answers now. But it's our understanding now that the federal government is going to go into the full 45-day review program to determine issues of national security and economic security.
DOBBS: Congressman, the idea that this could happen is mind- boggling to many people. You've been a free-trader for a long time. Are you becoming increasingly concerned about the transfers that are potentially present in this case, but also the broad range of transfers that are taking place in the relationship with China right now?
MANZULLO: Well, Lou, it is important -- you're always concerned, because, I mean, for example, if you want to talk about the helicopter, presidential helicopter, the European Union's going to sell weapons and armament to China. Well, the European Union is also going to be designing and manufacturing a lot of parts, if not doing the entire design, for Marine One in Europe. You know, does that mean -- you know, I think there's a problem there when you're giving engineers that could be designing for both countries.
DOBBS: Well, there's no question. And point in fact that the helicopter consortium announced today, as a matter of fact, a huge deal with China at the same time that the deal last week was announced on Marine One. Why in the world isn't there a mood in Congress to start getting rational about trade policy and the idea, as our viewers, as I said, were quick to point out. If you can do this with Marine One, why not make it an Airbus Air Force One?
MANZULLO: That's correct. And Lou, you know, with IBM, we got involved in this because of who the buyer is. The buyer's Lenovo. Lenovo was started by the Chinese Academy of Sciences, which is charged with the industrial policy for I.T. in China. They provided the venture capital. The Chinese Academy of Sciences is wholly owned by the Chinese government, but the largest shareholder in Lenovo, and when IBM completes its sale to Lenovo, Lenovo is not bound by market practices. They could come in and undercut.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: And part of the fact, they're part of a communist government, I think, is the easier way to cut to that.
MANZULLO: That's correct.
DOBBS: Congressman Manzullo, we thank you very much for being here.
MANZULLO: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: We look forward to the results of the inquiry. We appreciate it.
MANZULLO: Thank you.
DOBBS: Look forward to seeing you soon.
Still ahead here, the results of our poll tonight. We'll have a preview of what's ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight: In your opinion, has the United States lost control of its borders? Ninety-six percent of you said yes. Four percent of you said no.
Ninety-six percent. Perhaps somebody in Washington should pay attention to that sort of definitive response. Thanks for participating in the poll. Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow.
A leading congressman is calling for federal, state and local authorities to finally enforce our immigration laws. He's our guest tomorrow.
And also tomorrow, "Exporting America." Our special report on why India no longer may be the low cost draw it once was. And I'll be talking with one of this country's most distinguished professors who says the war in Iraq is sapping the vitality of the U.S. military. Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is coming up next.
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