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CNN Larry King Live

Interviews with Donald Rumsfeld, Dr. Phil

Aired February 03, 2005 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, why he submitted his resignation to the president twice. And when might U.S. troops be coming home from Iraq?
And then, Dr. Phil is back, keeping it real and taking your calls as only he can. They're both next on LARRY KING LIVE.

It's a pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld. Sorry we couldn't be together in person, but the miracle of satellite produces it. He remains on in the Bush cabinet.

By the way, are you going to stay the whole four years? Is that it for you? Are you going to carry on?

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You know, we never discussed that when I met with the president and he asked me to stay on. My wife, Joyce, however, said -- she said, "You're going to know when to quit. And that's when you start trimming." And I haven't started trimming yet, Larry.

KING: Trimming meaning?

RUMSFELD: Oh, being something other than yourself.

KING: Really? In other words, like sleeping late?

RUMSFELD: No, no. Nothing like that. No, I think she had in mind that sometimes people in public life end up altering their behavior to fit what they think to be the circumstance. And my wife's attitude is life's too short for that, so you're -- either you're yourself or you go do something else.

KING: How do you explain, by the way, being successful all your life in business and public life and at the same time always being direct?

RUMSFELD: I don't know. But I do tend to be direct, and I think I owe that to people. I would feel very uncomfortable getting into a mode where I had to try to be clever.

KING: Let's get into some things. What about this whole Iraq operation, frankly, surprised you, beginning to end? Beginning to now?

RUMSFELD: Well, I guess, you know, no plan ever survives the first contact with the enemy. We're up against enemies that have brains, and they watch what we do and they change what they're doing to try to take advantage of what we're doing. And of course, we do the same thing.

So what you can do is fashion plans and look at all the things that you could anticipate that could do -- be done some way other than what you expect. And then fashion a plan that has excursions so that you can adjust to all of those things.

Now, clearly the war lasted -- the major combat operation lasted a very short period of time. General Franks did a superb job, and his commanders were highly successful.

One of the things that didn't go right was we were not able to get the 4th Infantry Division in from the north through Turkey. And because of that, the Sunnis north of Baghdad never really got engaged in the war and an insufficient number were captured and killed in that part of the country. And they didn't really ever experience the full power of the United States military.

And they, in many instances, today are the ones that are fomenting this insurgency that exists in Iraq. So that and the fact that we couldn't get that division in from the north was unfortunate, in my view.

KING: So would you say that the insurgency has surprised you somewhat?

RUMSFELD: It has clearly been at a level that has been more intense than had been anticipated.

KING: The prisoner abuse scandal, which seems to now have had some people admitting it, will we -- is there a possibility that could occur again? Have we put the Band-Aid on that?

RUMSFELD: Well, you know, when something that terrible happens, it tends to not happen immediately thereafter. People are so sensitized to the wrongness of that kind of abuse that it's less likely to happen for a period of time.

Now, it was just startling to all of us, and yet there it was. Some people in our custody were not treated properly, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the judicial process is proceeding. And any number of people have now pled guilty to behavior that they shouldn't have engaged in.

KING: Was there ever a time during that period when people were raising, screaming about Donald Rumsfeld, that you thought, "Maybe I ought to hang it up. Maybe I ought to -- the buck stops at the top"?

RUMSFELD: You know, it does. If you're in charge of a large organization, and something like that occurs, and of course in an organization -- the problem is this kind of thing occurs in prisons across the country and across the world. And you have to know it's going to be a possibility. And therefore, the training and the discipline and the doctrine has to be such that you anticipate that risk. And clearly, that wasn't done to the extent it should. I mean, the fact is, Larry, I submitted my resignation to President Bush twice during that period and told him that I felt that he ought to make the decision as to whether or not I stayed on. And he made that decision and said he did want me to stay on.

KING: And if he had accepted, no regrets?

RUMSFELD: No. Indeed, no. You know, the -- what was going on in the midnight shift in Abu Ghraib Prison halfway across the world is something that clearly someone in Washington, D.C., can't manage or deal with.

And so I have no regrets. I think that we have a wonderful team of people in the Department of Defense. We have good people. We've made a lot of corrections to make sure that those kinds of things happen -- either don't happen again or are immediately found out and limited and contained.

KING: Does those elections last Sunday, which you praised this morning and are so happy about, and the president, does that mean that half this battle is won? How far along are we on a scale of bringing the boys home, and the women home?

RUMSFELD: Well, the goal is to stay there as long as needed and not one day longer. And that means that Iraq has to be on a path towards freedom and democracy and a system of government that's respectful of the people, the diverse elements within the country and at peace with their neighbors.

And that means that the Iraqi security forces have to be sufficiently capable that they can ensure the security in that country. And we are well along in that process. I feel very good about the fact that we've made such good progress in training and equipping and organizing and mentoring these Iraqi security forces.

If you think about it, on election day, the Iraqi security forces provided the first ring and the second ring of security around 5,000 polling places across a country the size of California.

KING: Who will be, Mr. Secretary, the determiner of when those conditions are met? Because you once told me if the government says go, we go.

RUMSFELD: Absolutely. And of course, the government's saying quite the contrary. Has been, and I'm sure when the individuals who just ran in those breathtakingly wonderful elections, when they are seated in their constituent assembly, I suspect that they'll recognize the reality that the coalition forces have been the forces that liberated 25 million people in that country, the forces that are there to assist them, develop their own capacity, and that we have no interest in staying beyond any time we're welcome.

KING: But we won't put a timetable. Would you say it's going to be a while?

RUMSFELD: Well, you can't put a timetable on it. I wish I could. I'd dearly love to be able to tell the American people that on this date certain, we will have accomplished it. But the problem is, there are too many variables.

The question is the level of that insurgency, how -- to what extent do Iran and Syria not cooperate and make the insurgency worse? To what extent do the people who were elected fail to reach out to the Sunnis and bring them into the government so that they have a single country? Those variables will make a difference.

We know roughly how fast we can train and equip Iraqi security forces, and we have a schedule. And it's moving along very successfully. But it's the combination of the two, the competence of the Iraqi security forces, coupled with the intensity of the insurgency that's going to make the difference and determine when we can actually move our troops out.

KING: We'll be back with some more moments with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm mindful of the fact that we have constantly got to review our plans and never lose our will.

So Mr. Secretary, thanks for the briefing, it was a very good briefing and you're doing a fine job on behalf of the American people.

RUMSFELD: Thank you, sir.

BUSH: Thank you all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Secretary Rumsfeld. Mr. Secretary, how about our armored vehicles? Are things improved?

RUMSFELD: Well, they've improved enormously, Larry. I've talked to General Casey about it this week, and he tells me that by February 15, there will not be a vehicle moving around in Iraq anywhere outside of a protected compound that does not have the appropriate armor. They have put an enormous effort into it. Flown in people who could do the welding and flown in the steel to be attached to various vehicles.

And they've done something that is most unusual, they have provided force protection in a country and in an insurgency where there is no forward edge of the battlefield. You know, in an insurgency you can have an explosive device anywhere at all. It's not as though there is -- some people are in front of the battle -- line of battle and some are behind it, safe, there is no line of battle in an insurgency.

So they've done a wonderful job, the military has.

KING: What are your concerns about Iran?

RUMSFELD: Well, you have a country that's ruled by a small handful of clerics. And the -- it's not a stable situation in that sense. I mean, you've got women and young people who know what's going on elsewhere in the world. They see what's happening in Afghanistan where 25 million people have been liberated and women stood in line to vote.

And instead of using the soccer stadium to behead people, they're using it for soccer. And people can come and go as they wish. Now they what's happening in Iraq, here is a country so many people said, it's a quagmire, that they -- those people aren't ready for democracy or freedom. They're too used to a dictatorship. And yet they went out and voted.

And the neighboring countries are going to look at that, not just Iran, but Syria and other countries are going to look at it and think to themselves, isn't that an interesting thing that's taking place in our world? And you know, if you look back over history, the great sweep of history is for freedom. And we're on the side of freedom.

KING: And you think that will spread?

RUMSFELD: I think it will. Repression works, there's no doubt about that. I mean, you think about how long the Soviet Union was able to subjugate those various republics, for decades and decades and decades.

But the wonderful thing that I saw about Iraq last Sunday was the people went out to some of the polling places, and they stood around, they didn't vote. They watched to see what their neighbors and other people were going to do. And an hour went by and two hours went by. And of course, on the walls it said, "you vote, you die," where the Zarqawi people were threatening them.

But finally some woman, I'm told, over 70 years old, said, I'm going to go in and vote. She walked in to vote and all the other people started coming in. And what those people saw was that despite 35 years of a vicious dictatorship, they still had courage. They still were willing to take a chance. They still had that natural human desire to be free.

And I think it gave each of them more courage to know that there are other Iraqis, millions of other Iraqis, share their same desire for freedom.

KING: Are you going to go there again soon?

RUMSFELD: Yes.

KING: How soon? Does it have to be a surprise? They can't announce when you go, right, I guess?

RUMSFELD: Yes, I normally don't announce when I'm going. But I go frequently, as you know.

KING: Tell me about this anthrax vaccination that's picking up again for men and women in service, why?

RUMSFELD: There still is the risk of anthrax. It is possible that you can deal with it prophylacticly with a series of shots. We had an authorization to go ahead and do that. And most people who were at least at risk of being in an area where they might be vulnerable to the anthrax began that process. A number of them finished the process. And then there was a legal step taken that delayed that.

And then I'm told that the Food and Drug Administration provided an emergency authority that on certain circumstances they could proceed. And it's a matter that is being worked out with the lawyers. But it's just a prudent step.

KING: There were stories through the years of Colin Powell about a rift. You've always been direct with us, is any of that true?

RUMSFELD: Look, I've known Colin Powell since I was secretary of defense and he was a colonel. And he is an enormously talented man. He's got a fine brain. He's got a lot of ability. He's about as articulate as anyone you'll ever meet. And he cares about the country.

And he, in his role as secretary of state, and me, in my role as secretary of defense, represent big institutions. And those institutions have different perspectives on the world and different perspectives on policies. And that's a healthy thing.

And the president wanted those discussions and debates to take place. He is a president that has got a lot of confidence in himself and in our country and in listening to different views.

My relationship with Colin Powell has been uniformly cordial and professional and I consider him a friend.

KING: So even with debates, no acrimony.

RUMSFELD: No, indeed. Now, down below three layers you have people who say things and do things that cause that impression to develop. But no, on a personal basis, we've had a lot of good times together and certainly agreed more often than we disagreed...

KING: How did he get along...

RUMSFELD: ... and when we disagreed...

KING: I'm sorry...

RUMSFELD: Disagreed it was not disagreeable.

KING: How do you get along with Secretary Rice?

RUMSFELD: Very well. She is also a very bright person and knowledgeable. She also is, of course, very anxious to be supportive of President Bush and she's very close to him. I had lunch with her yesterday and we talk every morning and sort through a whole set of issues, just as she and Colin and I talked every morning at 7:15 to work through a series of issues and had lunch once a week.

KING: Will she do well?

RUMSFELD: I think so. I think she is going to be a very good secretary of state. She is a person who has always been an achiever, whether it was in music or education or her discipline -- the old Soviet Union -- she has always been a person who has excelled. And I don't doubt for a minute that she will excel in this new post.

KING: Now tell me, I -- most officials wear the flag. What's in your lapel?

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm wearing the "Support Our Troops" symbol, "America Supports You." And...

KING: Is that that Web site?

RUMSFELD: It is. It's the Web site, and I think it's americasupportsyou.mil. And...

KING: Yes, I have -- I see it here.

RUMSFELD: It's a wonderful opportunity for people to go to the Web site and find out all the fabulous things the American people are doing to support our troops.

KING: It's called americasupportsyou -- all one word -- .mil, M- I-L, "details what people have done to support the military, what you can do at home, features response from military people about the support they've received and it's an official Web site of the Department of Defense."

How new is this?

RUMSFELD: Very new. It has been within recent weeks.

KING: Secretary, as always, good to see you, next time, in person.

RUMSFELD: Thank you very much, Larry, it's good to be with you.

KING: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. When we come back, Dr. Phil, hey, there's a quinella (ph), don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's always a great pleasure to welcome Dr. Phil McGraw to LARRY KING LIVE. Dr. Phil of the host of the highly rated TV talk show, "Dr. Phil Show." Has his second network prime time special coming, "Romance Rescue." It will air on February 15th, the day after Valentine's Day on CBS.

His number one "New York Times" best seller, "The Ultimate Weight Solution" is now out in trade paperback and selling well there. And, of course, the continual best seller is "Family First: Your Step by Step Plan," I have the book right here, "For Creating a Phenomenal Family."

What is "Romance Rescue" about?

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST "DR. PHIL SHOW": Well, it's Valentine's, you know. We're doing this the day after Valentine's Day, and I get so many questions about relationships. And people are like, hey, I can't find that one, should this be so much work if you're truly in love? If you've found your soulmate, should we work on this? How do we put the sizzle back in this? How do we do all this? So we're really diving into that. And we have some...

KING: And what do I see?

MCGRAW: We have some great and fun stories. Well, we've got some examples -- in fact, we have the first electronically enhanced date that I think has ever been done. There's this gorgeous girl, Jeanile, (ph) who's just delightful, and has lots of first dates, can't ever seem to get to the second ones. So we really analyzed it. Went to the Telestrator, figured out what kind of signals she was putting out, then I put an IFB in her ear, a little bug in her ear and put her on a date with her. So, I went on date with her.

KING: You talked to her?

MCGRAW: I talked to her through the date. And we'll let people see what they think the differences are. Something else we did, which I think was really interesting, we had so much controversy from this couple on "The Amazing Race," Jonathan and Victoria, where he seemed to be abusing his wife, verbally, emotionally, and physically on the show, under the pressure of everything that was going on. America was outraged. Millions of e-mails flowed into CBS. I got e-mails myself. I'm not even involved with the show, saying, Dr. Phil, what's going on here? Somebody needs to help these people. We're worried about this woman. So I sat down with that couple and asked them the questions that America wants to know. So we looked at the underside of relationships as well. And so we delve into the good side, the bad side, and how to make this stuff work.

KING: Why do you use the term "rescue"?

MCGRAW: Because I think a lot of people need a wakeup call. So many people get married. We spend more time planning the wedding than we do the marriage. You'll interview 100 caters, you'll do all the flowers. You'll get the dresses, the bridesmaids. You'll get all of that stuff lined up, but do you sit down and talk about what you really want to do in the marriage?

We have a series that starts the day after the "Romance Rescue" special. That's on at night on CBS. The next day we start a premarital boot camp, where I took three couples that are on the way to getting married, and put them through a boot camp that we're going to do through the month of February to see where they are on -- have they talked about, what are the expectations for marriage? What about sex? What about kids?

KING: You think they may not marry? MCGRAW: Sure, sure. Oh, let me tell you, there are some surprise outcomes in this whole boot camp. But you've got to talk about money, sex, in-laws, religion.

KING: It's hard to intellectualize what is the flowering romance leading to marriage, an intellectual discussion.

MCGRAW: You don't have to talk from your head. You can discuss things from your heart, and you can discuss them at a feeling level. And Larry, let me say, I believe that the outcome of most marriages are determined before you ever walk down the aisle. I think that, whether a marriage is going to work or not is determined by what you do before you tie the knot.

KING: We'll take a break and come back. The program "Romance Rescue" will air on February 15, the night after Valentine's Day on CBS. We're going to talk about other things including, scary trends, and he's got a show coming called "Celebrity Obsessed." We'll ask about that. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGRAW: This season on "The Amazing Race," millions of viewers saw one married couple, Jonathan and Victoria, go at each other to the point that people were crying abuse.

JONATHAN: How could you stop and pick up my bag? How could you do that? How could you do that?

VICTORIA: John, just stop that.

MCGRAW: Are you a jerk? Are you just an arrogant jerk that will just fly off the handle and get in people's face and bark at them?

JONATHAN: Did I do that, yes. Is that part of my true character? no.

MCGRAW: I'm just trying to find out who you really are. You stand up in front of the camera, and not under pressure and say, well, Victoria has some challenges that she's just going to have to get right with. You say, be the woman and be quiet. My whining is your incompetent. Is that OK with you?

VICTORIA: No, it's definitely not, OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think my son, Barry, has the ability to be the next Barry Manilow.

MCGRAW: He's always singing this kind of music. That's not popular with kids his age, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably not.

MCGRAW: It's not probably. The demographics is such that Barry Manilow is not big in junior high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. Did we influence him? Definitely. There's definitely an influence.

MCGRAW: Well, you met your wife in a Barry Manilow fan club meeting, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

MCGRAW: You got married on Barry Manilow's birthday...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

MCGRAW: To make it more special.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

MCGRAW: You named your kid Barry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no connection.

MCGRAW: Was this your dream or was it Barry's?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I resent you saying that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Pushy parents.

MCGRAW: Well, they -- that is a show about pushy parents, and they're all different kinds. This particular story, this is an amazingly talented kid. This kid has written over 100 songs on his own, he did a musical when he was 10-years-old and has great keyboard skills and all.

And so sometimes you get a child that truly is a prodigy, and then the parents are like, what do I do with him? How do I get the right positioning for him? How much is pushing too much? But you'll see more of that kid. He is a delightful kid and a talented kid.

KING: Ho how do you know so much about so many things?

MCGRAW: I don't. You know what I know? I do know human functioning, and I know the questions to ask, because I think people have the answers to just about everything they need to know inside them.

Don't you think when you really get down to it, the answers you find come from the inside out, whether it's what to do with your kids or what to do in your marriage, or what to do with your own life? I think people know the truth when they hear it, because they knew the truth before you said it.

KING: What is this you're going to do on scary trends? What does that mean?

MCGRAW: Larry, I -- we are partnering with our affiliate in Denver. And they contacted us and said, we have had 4 -- I'm sorry, 7 alcohol poisoning deaths in Denver since September of this year. Teenagers and college students who were drinking so much that it became toxic and poisoned their brain.

We got hundreds of letters from parents of kids who are buying cough medicine, cough syrup, cough suppressing pills, which have DXM in them, which is a kind of -- it's very similar to a synthetic heroin. It's available in 125 different brands of cough medicine that kids can walk in for $1.25, a $1.50 and buy.

And the active ingredients, the active ingredient is a very effective in its normally dosage, but if you take it too much, then it becomes a hallucinogenic, it gives them a high and parents aren't aware that kids are walking into the corner drugstore, buying this stuff and taking it to the point that it puts their absolute life in jeopardy.

So, we're talking about some of these scary trends. This binge drinking that kids are doing...

KING: This is wide spread?

MCGRAW: Oh, it's very widespread. In fact, 40 percent of college students report that they have done binge drinking within the last few weeks. So it's just happening a lot. It's not all kids, but its happening with them.

KING: So you're going to do a show on it.

MCGRAW: And this DXM is very important. So, we have done a very compelling show that looks right into what parents need to know. And you need to change your talk with your kids. You used to tell them, don't drink and drive, be careful. We really need to talk to these kids about not overdosing themselves on alcohol.

KING: You have got a show scheduled in February called celebrity obsessed.

MCGRAW: Yes. Well -- this is something that's really interesting to me, because we have so many people that are obsessed with things like J.Lo and the Bennifer thing. And in fact, our first guest on the celebrity so obsessed which is next Wednesday is so obsessed with Brad Pitt, she honestly believes that now he and Jennifer had broken up, which I didn't know until she told me, she has a chance now. She just lives up in Idaho or something, but she thinks she's going run in and Brad get married.

KING: Are these stalkers or is this just...

MCGRAW: She certainly is not. But they -- it gets to the point that it's just every magazine, every gossip column, buying the purses that the celebrities wear, everything that they see them do, they see them drinking a certain water, they've got to have that water, the purse they're carrying, the top wear wearing.

KING: What's that a manifestation of?

MCGRAW: I think it's people that say, I don't like my life. My life's mundane, it's not exciting, so I'm going to live vicariously through someone else.

We have a guest on that show that is planning to do every manner of plastic surgery to transform herself into a Jessica Simpson look-a- like. And, of course, I'm telling her, Jessica Simpson doesn't look like Jessica Simpson. This is smoke and mirrors. She's a beautiful girl, don't get me wrong, but, you know, it's all about lighting and make-up and lenses.

And people just chase this perfection that's just not going to be there instead of saying, how can I enhance my own life. How can I pick this up and really get myself going. So, it's all human function.

KING: If you haven't seen Dr. Phil's daily show, it's terrific. I've been a guest. It was one of the great time...

MCGRAW: You were a terrific guest. Did we have fun or what?

KING: Did we have fun?

MCGRAW: It was my turn to get him so I got ask the questions.

KING: What you have is anger management. I'll forget that line...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: It's quoted to me frequently at home.

MCGRAW: As it well should be.

KING: Yes, I know.

You have a show coming called "Addicted to Sex." This is a problem?

MCGRAW: Oh, he's bragging now.

KING: No, no, no. I'm just...

MCGRAW: I'm going to call the house and find out how...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: It's an addiction?

MCGRAW: It can be. I mean, obviously couples, the sexual aspect of their marriage and committed relationship is very important. But we are in a different era now, Larry. It used to be to get into pornography, you know, you had to go put on the raincoat and go down to the XXX bookstore or something. Now, with the Internet, I mean, even children are a few keystrokes away from the most graphic sort of pornography and that sort of thing that you could ever imagine. It has become epidemic.

It is the fastest growing area of the Internet of all.

KING: It's the No. 1 hit on the Internet?

MCGRAW: We're talking about billions and billions of hits. So, I mean -- and it's mostly men. But they sit right there and they key this stuff up. And then -- we have a guest on this show, intelligent, articulate people who advocate bringing a third party into the marriage. you know, you can call it swinging, you can call it whatever you want, but they go out and bring other couples into the marriage and truly believe that this is a healthy thing that keeps spice in the marriage.

Now, you can call me old fashioned, you can call me puritanical, but I don't need a third party in my marriage. How about you? You want to go bring someone home with you?

KING: What's the danger of being obsessed with it? What's the danger of looking at pornography every night to the person doing it?

MCGRAW: First off, anybody that is obsessed with and addicted to pornography, I guarantee you they have problems with intimacy. They turn to a flat screen, a two dimensional image, because there's no fear of rejection, they don't have to interact, they don't have to perform emotionally, spiritually, socially, interactively. So, you know, they're hiding in that.

And people say, hey, Dr. Phil, what's the big problem? There's no harm, there's no crime. Let me tell you there is harm, and there is crime. Because every time you punch up one of those pornography sites, you're looking at somebody's daughter, somebody's daughter who has gone way off the mark and has gotten pulled into something that she doesn't need to be in. And you are funding that. You are enabling that when you do it. And you don't have to think very long about how ugly that world is. And again, it's fantasy, it's not real.

And if you're turning away from your partner -- you know, I talk about in family first, that you have to focus your family inward, because if you turn away from your partner to try to resolve your problems that never works, not with a third party and not with pornography. And we're going to be looking at that really hard.

KING: His books are "Family First," still a major best seller, "The Ultimate Weight Solution," major best seller in paperback. He has the highly rated day-time TV talk program. Second only to Oprah, by the way, in syndication by the way.

MCGRAW: That's not a bad person to be second to.

KING: Not bad to be second to.

And you'll see him as the host of "Romance Rescue" February 15 on CBS.

We'll take some calls for Dr. Phil right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants me to sign a sex contract, and that's a problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the sex contract is a good idea. I talked to my married friends and they say sex dropped dramatically since they got married so I want to guarantee that doesn't happen to me.

MCGRAW: I need a stenography in here.

Heather, come in. This will be between you and your fiancee.

You call this...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...intimate obligations.

MCGRAW: So what's an intimate obligation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kissing.

MCGRAW: How about orgasm?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa...

MCGRAW: If you want a specific contract, you got to be specific.

Any fantasies, do you want to dress up like a fireman or something, or anything -- a French maid, what are you looking for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing in particular. It's just getting down to the business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to keep my same life I had before he came along.

MCGRAW: You do have the baby, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mm-hmm.

MCGRAW: And it's not going to go away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm still just trying to cling to the life that I had, you know. I told her I wasn't ready to have a child, and so now how can I be expected to respond to one as if I was prepared to have a child?

MCGRAW: Because you have a child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: You just said that's an important show.

MCGRAW: It is an important show.

That's the show we have on tomorrow. And the show is entitled "My Baby Ruined My Life." And there are actually so many parents who underestimate the sacrifice, the demands of having a child. And then when they get into it, it's like, you're the reason I can't go to college, you're the reason I don't have a social life. And they really project this onto their children.

And, you know, some do it blatantly, some do it in a, you know, kind of a subtle way. And, you know, we talk in "Family First" that the No. 1 characteristic of a phenomenal family is that you create a nurturing and accepting family system where everybody has a role, the children have this wonderful sense of belongingness, acceptance. They just feel like, if I wasn't here, things wouldn't be right. And if you take that away from a child, it erodes their self-esteem terribly.

KING: Greenville, North Carolina, we go to calls for Dr. Phil. Hello.

CALLER: Hi, how are you tonight?

KING: Fine.

MCGRAW: Good evening.

CALLER: Hi, Dr. Phil.

MCGRAW: How are you? What's your question?

CALLER: My question is regarding the sex addiction. I actually was -- sent in a story regarding this. I've been married for 10 years, and from day one, my husband has tried to get us to invite another male partner into our relationship. And I've refused to do this. And because of that, now at the ten-year mark, he's saying our marriage is over, and it's all my fault. And I just -- I don't understand what -- why it's important? Why does a man have to have another party...

KING: And he wanted -- ma'am, he wanted it to be a male?

CALLER: Yes.

KING: OK, doctor.

MCGRAW: First, let me tell you that I'm sorry you wasted 10 years on this loser. Because if he's telling you, you either do a three-way sexual relationship with me or I'm out of here, then you just need to tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass, because you don't want that kind of relationship. You don't want that kind of demeaning. And he is just unhealthy in what he's thinking and doing.

You never solve relationship problems by turning away from your partner to somebody outside. That is unhealthy. It is unsafe. It is just not right. So if that's what he wants, and he's been fixated it to the point he's going to run you off if you don't, you're better off to know it now than later.

KING: Huma, Louisiana, hello.

CALLER: Hi, yes. Dr. Phil, my mom has always been my best friend. And she's been recently diagnosed with dementia, namely Alzheimer's, and she is -- the whole family's in denial, and I'm the only one who's kind of carrying the burden of everything. But she's become very competitive with me. She makes very degrading comments about my parenting skills. And I have to say, I'm not the best mom, but I'm a good mom. I use positive discipline, and she doesn't understand the way that I get my children to do the things I do. I don't hit and I don't yell, and she doesn't understand, so she thinks to let them do whatever they want.

MCGRAW: What's your question?

CALLER: We got into a minor disagreement on January 2, and she still isn't talking to me. And I've apologized. I don't know where the line is between...

KING: Dr. Phil understands dementia and he understands Alzheimer's.

MCGRAW: First off, it's very important that you...

KING: It is progressive, right?

MCGRAW: It is very progressive. And it's very important that you not take this personally. And it's so hard when you say, well, it's me she's not talking to, it's me she's criticizing, it's me that's being the brunt, but have you really to step back and understand that this gets to a point where it is an involuntary thing for her. She may well be having some very circular thinking at this point, and not be reasoning particularly well.

If you will be patient. And, listen, that doesn't mean that you allow her to abuse you in a repetitive fashion. But you have to be patient, be supportive, be understanding, but don't enable her by not requiring her to be as accountable as she possibly can be. If you begin to treat her like a baby or an invalid, then that is an insult to her. So, don't take her dignity away by condescending to her, but don't take it personal.

And truly, talk to your neurologist, talk to your physician, and see if there are things that you can do with medications and all that can ease some of this. You will get past this.

KING: It's hard not to take it personally.

MCGRAW: It is hard not to take it personal, because you have such a history with your mother. And it's the same voice, it's the same countenance, it's the same tone of voice of when she's been disappointed with you, but it may not be a conscious choice on her part.

KING: You've got a show coming on, is my son a sexual predator?

MCGRAW: Larry, we do. I believe in all the years I've been doing television, you know, 5 years on Oprah and 3 years now here with the thousands of guests that I've dealt with, this may be the single most compelling story that I've ever encountered.

A very loving and caring family wrote in and said, we fear that our son may, in fact, be abusing our daughter. And he's an adult now, he's 19. We've reached out for help, and nobody -- everybody says, until something happens, we can't do anything, we don't have any proof. And nobody will talk to him, nobody will confront him, nobody will find out what the situation is. We're lost. We don't know what to do. Will you help us?

And he agreed to participate and talk about these things. So, we really do a deconstruction of sexual molestation in the family, the effects that it has on everybody involved. And there is a 5-year-old little girl involved in this story that hangs in the balance.

KING: When does it air?

MCGRAW: And -- it's coming up in -- I think it's sometime next week. Watch for it on our Web site, drphil.com. It's, is my son a sexual predator? And I believe, really, it is the single most compelling story I've ever dealt with.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Dr. Phil. Get a few more calls in right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want her to know that somewhere in me I do love her. It's just very hard for me.

MCGRAW: That anger should be at this guy that lied to you. You're displacing this to an innocent child because she can't take up for herself. This isn't about her. Are you going to be a bitter, cold, denying, rejected mother for the whole rest of your life because of something that happened five years ago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope not.

MCGRAW: Is this a life sentence that you're going to serve and that Lily's (ph) going to serve? You made a mistake. She is not a mistake. I believe that people have the children they are supposed to have.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: Take another call for Dr. Phil.

Santa Barbara, California, hello. Santa Barbara, are you there?

Santa Barbara.

CALLER: Yes, I'm here. Dr. Phil...

KING: Yes, go -- yes, go ahead.

CALLER: Dr. Phil, I think it's great that your show addresses domestic violence and spousal abuse quite often. I watch your show.

MCGRAW: Thank you.

CALLER: However, I wish my husband would have broken my arm or punched me in the nose, and that it was something people could actually see. I'm a victim of emotional and the worst kind of physical violence against a woman, which is rape. I've never heard you speak about spousal rape, Dr. Phil. I live in a community where there is, you know, very wealthy people, and I went to rape crisis, and I was practically thrown out. Nobody understands the fact that my husband raped me for 20 years. And I know...

KING: Are you still married?

CALLER: ... Larry King, don't ask him why I stayed with him, because Dr. Phil, tell him why women stay in a situation like that.

KING: I'll ask it with a further question, a husband can rape a wife?

MCGRAW: Absolutely. Just because you fill out some paperwork down at the courthouse doesn't mean that you give up the right to control your body, the right to control access to your body.

KING: Why don't people believe her? Why don't...

MCGRAW: I'm not sure who she's been talking to, but, you know, the problem is, when you are abusing someone, the primary tool of the abuser is isolation. They get the victim to themselves, where they don't have resources, they don't have people that will support them that they can reach out to. And what abuse victims have to do, is to find those resources and take that step to reach out. I've talked to so many women who have said, you know, I'm physically abused by my husband. I need to stand up and get in his face and tell him not to. That's the absolute wrong thing to do. If you do that, you will get beat up severely. You may get hurt. You may get killed. What you have to do is learn what your resources are. Reach out to the women shelters, reach out to your church, to your family. I promise you that if this woman reaches out to responsible people at her church or at her community services and shelters, they will listen, they will help.

KING: Have you done a show on marital rape?

MCGRAW: we have not done show on spousal rape, but it is certainly on our radar screen to do.

KING: Doctor, always a great pleasure. Look forward to the next visit.

MCGRAW: Larry, thank you so much.

KING: Look forward to the special.

All right, let me run them down. Dr. Phil's special will be on the CBS on February 15, the night after Valentine's Day, "Romance Rescue." Upcoming shows, and we've seen some clips of what's coming, scary trends, addicted to sex, sexual predator son, celebrity obsessed.

The book "Family First," still a major best seller in hard cover. And now in paper back, "The Ultimate Weight Solution: The Seven Keys to Weight Loss Freedom." All that from the mind, concept, Dr. Phil McGraw, one of my favorite folk. I'll be back in a couple minutes. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Aaron Brown is off tonight, and who's sitting in? They bring her in from the morning, Soledad O'Brien, mother of twins, but carrying on, will host "NEWSNIGHT."

Now yesterday, Nate 'N Al's, right here in Beverly Hills, I saw Jeff Greenfield, and he said he's with Schwarzenegger, for you show. What's going on?

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, GUEST HOST "NEWSNIGHT": That's right, that's who he's talking to. And lots to talk about this evening about Arnold Schwarzenegger, not only about how he's being received in California, but of course, in his native Austria as well this evening, Larry.

KING: Go get them Soledad.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired February 3, 2005 - 21:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, why he submitted his resignation to the president twice. And when might U.S. troops be coming home from Iraq?
And then, Dr. Phil is back, keeping it real and taking your calls as only he can. They're both next on LARRY KING LIVE.

It's a pleasure to welcome to LARRY KING LIVE the secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld. Sorry we couldn't be together in person, but the miracle of satellite produces it. He remains on in the Bush cabinet.

By the way, are you going to stay the whole four years? Is that it for you? Are you going to carry on?

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You know, we never discussed that when I met with the president and he asked me to stay on. My wife, Joyce, however, said -- she said, "You're going to know when to quit. And that's when you start trimming." And I haven't started trimming yet, Larry.

KING: Trimming meaning?

RUMSFELD: Oh, being something other than yourself.

KING: Really? In other words, like sleeping late?

RUMSFELD: No, no. Nothing like that. No, I think she had in mind that sometimes people in public life end up altering their behavior to fit what they think to be the circumstance. And my wife's attitude is life's too short for that, so you're -- either you're yourself or you go do something else.

KING: How do you explain, by the way, being successful all your life in business and public life and at the same time always being direct?

RUMSFELD: I don't know. But I do tend to be direct, and I think I owe that to people. I would feel very uncomfortable getting into a mode where I had to try to be clever.

KING: Let's get into some things. What about this whole Iraq operation, frankly, surprised you, beginning to end? Beginning to now?

RUMSFELD: Well, I guess, you know, no plan ever survives the first contact with the enemy. We're up against enemies that have brains, and they watch what we do and they change what they're doing to try to take advantage of what we're doing. And of course, we do the same thing.

So what you can do is fashion plans and look at all the things that you could anticipate that could do -- be done some way other than what you expect. And then fashion a plan that has excursions so that you can adjust to all of those things.

Now, clearly the war lasted -- the major combat operation lasted a very short period of time. General Franks did a superb job, and his commanders were highly successful.

One of the things that didn't go right was we were not able to get the 4th Infantry Division in from the north through Turkey. And because of that, the Sunnis north of Baghdad never really got engaged in the war and an insufficient number were captured and killed in that part of the country. And they didn't really ever experience the full power of the United States military.

And they, in many instances, today are the ones that are fomenting this insurgency that exists in Iraq. So that and the fact that we couldn't get that division in from the north was unfortunate, in my view.

KING: So would you say that the insurgency has surprised you somewhat?

RUMSFELD: It has clearly been at a level that has been more intense than had been anticipated.

KING: The prisoner abuse scandal, which seems to now have had some people admitting it, will we -- is there a possibility that could occur again? Have we put the Band-Aid on that?

RUMSFELD: Well, you know, when something that terrible happens, it tends to not happen immediately thereafter. People are so sensitized to the wrongness of that kind of abuse that it's less likely to happen for a period of time.

Now, it was just startling to all of us, and yet there it was. Some people in our custody were not treated properly, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the judicial process is proceeding. And any number of people have now pled guilty to behavior that they shouldn't have engaged in.

KING: Was there ever a time during that period when people were raising, screaming about Donald Rumsfeld, that you thought, "Maybe I ought to hang it up. Maybe I ought to -- the buck stops at the top"?

RUMSFELD: You know, it does. If you're in charge of a large organization, and something like that occurs, and of course in an organization -- the problem is this kind of thing occurs in prisons across the country and across the world. And you have to know it's going to be a possibility. And therefore, the training and the discipline and the doctrine has to be such that you anticipate that risk. And clearly, that wasn't done to the extent it should. I mean, the fact is, Larry, I submitted my resignation to President Bush twice during that period and told him that I felt that he ought to make the decision as to whether or not I stayed on. And he made that decision and said he did want me to stay on.

KING: And if he had accepted, no regrets?

RUMSFELD: No. Indeed, no. You know, the -- what was going on in the midnight shift in Abu Ghraib Prison halfway across the world is something that clearly someone in Washington, D.C., can't manage or deal with.

And so I have no regrets. I think that we have a wonderful team of people in the Department of Defense. We have good people. We've made a lot of corrections to make sure that those kinds of things happen -- either don't happen again or are immediately found out and limited and contained.

KING: Does those elections last Sunday, which you praised this morning and are so happy about, and the president, does that mean that half this battle is won? How far along are we on a scale of bringing the boys home, and the women home?

RUMSFELD: Well, the goal is to stay there as long as needed and not one day longer. And that means that Iraq has to be on a path towards freedom and democracy and a system of government that's respectful of the people, the diverse elements within the country and at peace with their neighbors.

And that means that the Iraqi security forces have to be sufficiently capable that they can ensure the security in that country. And we are well along in that process. I feel very good about the fact that we've made such good progress in training and equipping and organizing and mentoring these Iraqi security forces.

If you think about it, on election day, the Iraqi security forces provided the first ring and the second ring of security around 5,000 polling places across a country the size of California.

KING: Who will be, Mr. Secretary, the determiner of when those conditions are met? Because you once told me if the government says go, we go.

RUMSFELD: Absolutely. And of course, the government's saying quite the contrary. Has been, and I'm sure when the individuals who just ran in those breathtakingly wonderful elections, when they are seated in their constituent assembly, I suspect that they'll recognize the reality that the coalition forces have been the forces that liberated 25 million people in that country, the forces that are there to assist them, develop their own capacity, and that we have no interest in staying beyond any time we're welcome.

KING: But we won't put a timetable. Would you say it's going to be a while?

RUMSFELD: Well, you can't put a timetable on it. I wish I could. I'd dearly love to be able to tell the American people that on this date certain, we will have accomplished it. But the problem is, there are too many variables.

The question is the level of that insurgency, how -- to what extent do Iran and Syria not cooperate and make the insurgency worse? To what extent do the people who were elected fail to reach out to the Sunnis and bring them into the government so that they have a single country? Those variables will make a difference.

We know roughly how fast we can train and equip Iraqi security forces, and we have a schedule. And it's moving along very successfully. But it's the combination of the two, the competence of the Iraqi security forces, coupled with the intensity of the insurgency that's going to make the difference and determine when we can actually move our troops out.

KING: We'll be back with some more moments with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm mindful of the fact that we have constantly got to review our plans and never lose our will.

So Mr. Secretary, thanks for the briefing, it was a very good briefing and you're doing a fine job on behalf of the American people.

RUMSFELD: Thank you, sir.

BUSH: Thank you all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Secretary Rumsfeld. Mr. Secretary, how about our armored vehicles? Are things improved?

RUMSFELD: Well, they've improved enormously, Larry. I've talked to General Casey about it this week, and he tells me that by February 15, there will not be a vehicle moving around in Iraq anywhere outside of a protected compound that does not have the appropriate armor. They have put an enormous effort into it. Flown in people who could do the welding and flown in the steel to be attached to various vehicles.

And they've done something that is most unusual, they have provided force protection in a country and in an insurgency where there is no forward edge of the battlefield. You know, in an insurgency you can have an explosive device anywhere at all. It's not as though there is -- some people are in front of the battle -- line of battle and some are behind it, safe, there is no line of battle in an insurgency.

So they've done a wonderful job, the military has.

KING: What are your concerns about Iran?

RUMSFELD: Well, you have a country that's ruled by a small handful of clerics. And the -- it's not a stable situation in that sense. I mean, you've got women and young people who know what's going on elsewhere in the world. They see what's happening in Afghanistan where 25 million people have been liberated and women stood in line to vote.

And instead of using the soccer stadium to behead people, they're using it for soccer. And people can come and go as they wish. Now they what's happening in Iraq, here is a country so many people said, it's a quagmire, that they -- those people aren't ready for democracy or freedom. They're too used to a dictatorship. And yet they went out and voted.

And the neighboring countries are going to look at that, not just Iran, but Syria and other countries are going to look at it and think to themselves, isn't that an interesting thing that's taking place in our world? And you know, if you look back over history, the great sweep of history is for freedom. And we're on the side of freedom.

KING: And you think that will spread?

RUMSFELD: I think it will. Repression works, there's no doubt about that. I mean, you think about how long the Soviet Union was able to subjugate those various republics, for decades and decades and decades.

But the wonderful thing that I saw about Iraq last Sunday was the people went out to some of the polling places, and they stood around, they didn't vote. They watched to see what their neighbors and other people were going to do. And an hour went by and two hours went by. And of course, on the walls it said, "you vote, you die," where the Zarqawi people were threatening them.

But finally some woman, I'm told, over 70 years old, said, I'm going to go in and vote. She walked in to vote and all the other people started coming in. And what those people saw was that despite 35 years of a vicious dictatorship, they still had courage. They still were willing to take a chance. They still had that natural human desire to be free.

And I think it gave each of them more courage to know that there are other Iraqis, millions of other Iraqis, share their same desire for freedom.

KING: Are you going to go there again soon?

RUMSFELD: Yes.

KING: How soon? Does it have to be a surprise? They can't announce when you go, right, I guess?

RUMSFELD: Yes, I normally don't announce when I'm going. But I go frequently, as you know.

KING: Tell me about this anthrax vaccination that's picking up again for men and women in service, why?

RUMSFELD: There still is the risk of anthrax. It is possible that you can deal with it prophylacticly with a series of shots. We had an authorization to go ahead and do that. And most people who were at least at risk of being in an area where they might be vulnerable to the anthrax began that process. A number of them finished the process. And then there was a legal step taken that delayed that.

And then I'm told that the Food and Drug Administration provided an emergency authority that on certain circumstances they could proceed. And it's a matter that is being worked out with the lawyers. But it's just a prudent step.

KING: There were stories through the years of Colin Powell about a rift. You've always been direct with us, is any of that true?

RUMSFELD: Look, I've known Colin Powell since I was secretary of defense and he was a colonel. And he is an enormously talented man. He's got a fine brain. He's got a lot of ability. He's about as articulate as anyone you'll ever meet. And he cares about the country.

And he, in his role as secretary of state, and me, in my role as secretary of defense, represent big institutions. And those institutions have different perspectives on the world and different perspectives on policies. And that's a healthy thing.

And the president wanted those discussions and debates to take place. He is a president that has got a lot of confidence in himself and in our country and in listening to different views.

My relationship with Colin Powell has been uniformly cordial and professional and I consider him a friend.

KING: So even with debates, no acrimony.

RUMSFELD: No, indeed. Now, down below three layers you have people who say things and do things that cause that impression to develop. But no, on a personal basis, we've had a lot of good times together and certainly agreed more often than we disagreed...

KING: How did he get along...

RUMSFELD: ... and when we disagreed...

KING: I'm sorry...

RUMSFELD: Disagreed it was not disagreeable.

KING: How do you get along with Secretary Rice?

RUMSFELD: Very well. She is also a very bright person and knowledgeable. She also is, of course, very anxious to be supportive of President Bush and she's very close to him. I had lunch with her yesterday and we talk every morning and sort through a whole set of issues, just as she and Colin and I talked every morning at 7:15 to work through a series of issues and had lunch once a week.

KING: Will she do well?

RUMSFELD: I think so. I think she is going to be a very good secretary of state. She is a person who has always been an achiever, whether it was in music or education or her discipline -- the old Soviet Union -- she has always been a person who has excelled. And I don't doubt for a minute that she will excel in this new post.

KING: Now tell me, I -- most officials wear the flag. What's in your lapel?

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm wearing the "Support Our Troops" symbol, "America Supports You." And...

KING: Is that that Web site?

RUMSFELD: It is. It's the Web site, and I think it's americasupportsyou.mil. And...

KING: Yes, I have -- I see it here.

RUMSFELD: It's a wonderful opportunity for people to go to the Web site and find out all the fabulous things the American people are doing to support our troops.

KING: It's called americasupportsyou -- all one word -- .mil, M- I-L, "details what people have done to support the military, what you can do at home, features response from military people about the support they've received and it's an official Web site of the Department of Defense."

How new is this?

RUMSFELD: Very new. It has been within recent weeks.

KING: Secretary, as always, good to see you, next time, in person.

RUMSFELD: Thank you very much, Larry, it's good to be with you.

KING: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. When we come back, Dr. Phil, hey, there's a quinella (ph), don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's always a great pleasure to welcome Dr. Phil McGraw to LARRY KING LIVE. Dr. Phil of the host of the highly rated TV talk show, "Dr. Phil Show." Has his second network prime time special coming, "Romance Rescue." It will air on February 15th, the day after Valentine's Day on CBS.

His number one "New York Times" best seller, "The Ultimate Weight Solution" is now out in trade paperback and selling well there. And, of course, the continual best seller is "Family First: Your Step by Step Plan," I have the book right here, "For Creating a Phenomenal Family."

What is "Romance Rescue" about?

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, HOST "DR. PHIL SHOW": Well, it's Valentine's, you know. We're doing this the day after Valentine's Day, and I get so many questions about relationships. And people are like, hey, I can't find that one, should this be so much work if you're truly in love? If you've found your soulmate, should we work on this? How do we put the sizzle back in this? How do we do all this? So we're really diving into that. And we have some...

KING: And what do I see?

MCGRAW: We have some great and fun stories. Well, we've got some examples -- in fact, we have the first electronically enhanced date that I think has ever been done. There's this gorgeous girl, Jeanile, (ph) who's just delightful, and has lots of first dates, can't ever seem to get to the second ones. So we really analyzed it. Went to the Telestrator, figured out what kind of signals she was putting out, then I put an IFB in her ear, a little bug in her ear and put her on a date with her. So, I went on date with her.

KING: You talked to her?

MCGRAW: I talked to her through the date. And we'll let people see what they think the differences are. Something else we did, which I think was really interesting, we had so much controversy from this couple on "The Amazing Race," Jonathan and Victoria, where he seemed to be abusing his wife, verbally, emotionally, and physically on the show, under the pressure of everything that was going on. America was outraged. Millions of e-mails flowed into CBS. I got e-mails myself. I'm not even involved with the show, saying, Dr. Phil, what's going on here? Somebody needs to help these people. We're worried about this woman. So I sat down with that couple and asked them the questions that America wants to know. So we looked at the underside of relationships as well. And so we delve into the good side, the bad side, and how to make this stuff work.

KING: Why do you use the term "rescue"?

MCGRAW: Because I think a lot of people need a wakeup call. So many people get married. We spend more time planning the wedding than we do the marriage. You'll interview 100 caters, you'll do all the flowers. You'll get the dresses, the bridesmaids. You'll get all of that stuff lined up, but do you sit down and talk about what you really want to do in the marriage?

We have a series that starts the day after the "Romance Rescue" special. That's on at night on CBS. The next day we start a premarital boot camp, where I took three couples that are on the way to getting married, and put them through a boot camp that we're going to do through the month of February to see where they are on -- have they talked about, what are the expectations for marriage? What about sex? What about kids?

KING: You think they may not marry? MCGRAW: Sure, sure. Oh, let me tell you, there are some surprise outcomes in this whole boot camp. But you've got to talk about money, sex, in-laws, religion.

KING: It's hard to intellectualize what is the flowering romance leading to marriage, an intellectual discussion.

MCGRAW: You don't have to talk from your head. You can discuss things from your heart, and you can discuss them at a feeling level. And Larry, let me say, I believe that the outcome of most marriages are determined before you ever walk down the aisle. I think that, whether a marriage is going to work or not is determined by what you do before you tie the knot.

KING: We'll take a break and come back. The program "Romance Rescue" will air on February 15, the night after Valentine's Day on CBS. We're going to talk about other things including, scary trends, and he's got a show coming called "Celebrity Obsessed." We'll ask about that. Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGRAW: This season on "The Amazing Race," millions of viewers saw one married couple, Jonathan and Victoria, go at each other to the point that people were crying abuse.

JONATHAN: How could you stop and pick up my bag? How could you do that? How could you do that?

VICTORIA: John, just stop that.

MCGRAW: Are you a jerk? Are you just an arrogant jerk that will just fly off the handle and get in people's face and bark at them?

JONATHAN: Did I do that, yes. Is that part of my true character? no.

MCGRAW: I'm just trying to find out who you really are. You stand up in front of the camera, and not under pressure and say, well, Victoria has some challenges that she's just going to have to get right with. You say, be the woman and be quiet. My whining is your incompetent. Is that OK with you?

VICTORIA: No, it's definitely not, OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think my son, Barry, has the ability to be the next Barry Manilow.

MCGRAW: He's always singing this kind of music. That's not popular with kids his age, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably not.

MCGRAW: It's not probably. The demographics is such that Barry Manilow is not big in junior high.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's right. Did we influence him? Definitely. There's definitely an influence.

MCGRAW: Well, you met your wife in a Barry Manilow fan club meeting, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

MCGRAW: You got married on Barry Manilow's birthday...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

MCGRAW: To make it more special.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.

MCGRAW: You named your kid Barry.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no connection.

MCGRAW: Was this your dream or was it Barry's?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I resent you saying that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Pushy parents.

MCGRAW: Well, they -- that is a show about pushy parents, and they're all different kinds. This particular story, this is an amazingly talented kid. This kid has written over 100 songs on his own, he did a musical when he was 10-years-old and has great keyboard skills and all.

And so sometimes you get a child that truly is a prodigy, and then the parents are like, what do I do with him? How do I get the right positioning for him? How much is pushing too much? But you'll see more of that kid. He is a delightful kid and a talented kid.

KING: Ho how do you know so much about so many things?

MCGRAW: I don't. You know what I know? I do know human functioning, and I know the questions to ask, because I think people have the answers to just about everything they need to know inside them.

Don't you think when you really get down to it, the answers you find come from the inside out, whether it's what to do with your kids or what to do in your marriage, or what to do with your own life? I think people know the truth when they hear it, because they knew the truth before you said it.

KING: What is this you're going to do on scary trends? What does that mean?

MCGRAW: Larry, I -- we are partnering with our affiliate in Denver. And they contacted us and said, we have had 4 -- I'm sorry, 7 alcohol poisoning deaths in Denver since September of this year. Teenagers and college students who were drinking so much that it became toxic and poisoned their brain.

We got hundreds of letters from parents of kids who are buying cough medicine, cough syrup, cough suppressing pills, which have DXM in them, which is a kind of -- it's very similar to a synthetic heroin. It's available in 125 different brands of cough medicine that kids can walk in for $1.25, a $1.50 and buy.

And the active ingredients, the active ingredient is a very effective in its normally dosage, but if you take it too much, then it becomes a hallucinogenic, it gives them a high and parents aren't aware that kids are walking into the corner drugstore, buying this stuff and taking it to the point that it puts their absolute life in jeopardy.

So, we're talking about some of these scary trends. This binge drinking that kids are doing...

KING: This is wide spread?

MCGRAW: Oh, it's very widespread. In fact, 40 percent of college students report that they have done binge drinking within the last few weeks. So it's just happening a lot. It's not all kids, but its happening with them.

KING: So you're going to do a show on it.

MCGRAW: And this DXM is very important. So, we have done a very compelling show that looks right into what parents need to know. And you need to change your talk with your kids. You used to tell them, don't drink and drive, be careful. We really need to talk to these kids about not overdosing themselves on alcohol.

KING: You have got a show scheduled in February called celebrity obsessed.

MCGRAW: Yes. Well -- this is something that's really interesting to me, because we have so many people that are obsessed with things like J.Lo and the Bennifer thing. And in fact, our first guest on the celebrity so obsessed which is next Wednesday is so obsessed with Brad Pitt, she honestly believes that now he and Jennifer had broken up, which I didn't know until she told me, she has a chance now. She just lives up in Idaho or something, but she thinks she's going run in and Brad get married.

KING: Are these stalkers or is this just...

MCGRAW: She certainly is not. But they -- it gets to the point that it's just every magazine, every gossip column, buying the purses that the celebrities wear, everything that they see them do, they see them drinking a certain water, they've got to have that water, the purse they're carrying, the top wear wearing.

KING: What's that a manifestation of?

MCGRAW: I think it's people that say, I don't like my life. My life's mundane, it's not exciting, so I'm going to live vicariously through someone else.

We have a guest on that show that is planning to do every manner of plastic surgery to transform herself into a Jessica Simpson look-a- like. And, of course, I'm telling her, Jessica Simpson doesn't look like Jessica Simpson. This is smoke and mirrors. She's a beautiful girl, don't get me wrong, but, you know, it's all about lighting and make-up and lenses.

And people just chase this perfection that's just not going to be there instead of saying, how can I enhance my own life. How can I pick this up and really get myself going. So, it's all human function.

KING: If you haven't seen Dr. Phil's daily show, it's terrific. I've been a guest. It was one of the great time...

MCGRAW: You were a terrific guest. Did we have fun or what?

KING: Did we have fun?

MCGRAW: It was my turn to get him so I got ask the questions.

KING: What you have is anger management. I'll forget that line...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: It's quoted to me frequently at home.

MCGRAW: As it well should be.

KING: Yes, I know.

You have a show coming called "Addicted to Sex." This is a problem?

MCGRAW: Oh, he's bragging now.

KING: No, no, no. I'm just...

MCGRAW: I'm going to call the house and find out how...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: It's an addiction?

MCGRAW: It can be. I mean, obviously couples, the sexual aspect of their marriage and committed relationship is very important. But we are in a different era now, Larry. It used to be to get into pornography, you know, you had to go put on the raincoat and go down to the XXX bookstore or something. Now, with the Internet, I mean, even children are a few keystrokes away from the most graphic sort of pornography and that sort of thing that you could ever imagine. It has become epidemic.

It is the fastest growing area of the Internet of all.

KING: It's the No. 1 hit on the Internet?

MCGRAW: We're talking about billions and billions of hits. So, I mean -- and it's mostly men. But they sit right there and they key this stuff up. And then -- we have a guest on this show, intelligent, articulate people who advocate bringing a third party into the marriage. you know, you can call it swinging, you can call it whatever you want, but they go out and bring other couples into the marriage and truly believe that this is a healthy thing that keeps spice in the marriage.

Now, you can call me old fashioned, you can call me puritanical, but I don't need a third party in my marriage. How about you? You want to go bring someone home with you?

KING: What's the danger of being obsessed with it? What's the danger of looking at pornography every night to the person doing it?

MCGRAW: First off, anybody that is obsessed with and addicted to pornography, I guarantee you they have problems with intimacy. They turn to a flat screen, a two dimensional image, because there's no fear of rejection, they don't have to interact, they don't have to perform emotionally, spiritually, socially, interactively. So, you know, they're hiding in that.

And people say, hey, Dr. Phil, what's the big problem? There's no harm, there's no crime. Let me tell you there is harm, and there is crime. Because every time you punch up one of those pornography sites, you're looking at somebody's daughter, somebody's daughter who has gone way off the mark and has gotten pulled into something that she doesn't need to be in. And you are funding that. You are enabling that when you do it. And you don't have to think very long about how ugly that world is. And again, it's fantasy, it's not real.

And if you're turning away from your partner -- you know, I talk about in family first, that you have to focus your family inward, because if you turn away from your partner to try to resolve your problems that never works, not with a third party and not with pornography. And we're going to be looking at that really hard.

KING: His books are "Family First," still a major best seller, "The Ultimate Weight Solution," major best seller in paperback. He has the highly rated day-time TV talk program. Second only to Oprah, by the way, in syndication by the way.

MCGRAW: That's not a bad person to be second to.

KING: Not bad to be second to.

And you'll see him as the host of "Romance Rescue" February 15 on CBS.

We'll take some calls for Dr. Phil right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants me to sign a sex contract, and that's a problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the sex contract is a good idea. I talked to my married friends and they say sex dropped dramatically since they got married so I want to guarantee that doesn't happen to me.

MCGRAW: I need a stenography in here.

Heather, come in. This will be between you and your fiancee.

You call this...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...intimate obligations.

MCGRAW: So what's an intimate obligation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kissing.

MCGRAW: How about orgasm?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa, whoa, whoa...

MCGRAW: If you want a specific contract, you got to be specific.

Any fantasies, do you want to dress up like a fireman or something, or anything -- a French maid, what are you looking for?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing in particular. It's just getting down to the business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to keep my same life I had before he came along.

MCGRAW: You do have the baby, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mm-hmm.

MCGRAW: And it's not going to go away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm still just trying to cling to the life that I had, you know. I told her I wasn't ready to have a child, and so now how can I be expected to respond to one as if I was prepared to have a child?

MCGRAW: Because you have a child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: You just said that's an important show.

MCGRAW: It is an important show.

That's the show we have on tomorrow. And the show is entitled "My Baby Ruined My Life." And there are actually so many parents who underestimate the sacrifice, the demands of having a child. And then when they get into it, it's like, you're the reason I can't go to college, you're the reason I don't have a social life. And they really project this onto their children.

And, you know, some do it blatantly, some do it in a, you know, kind of a subtle way. And, you know, we talk in "Family First" that the No. 1 characteristic of a phenomenal family is that you create a nurturing and accepting family system where everybody has a role, the children have this wonderful sense of belongingness, acceptance. They just feel like, if I wasn't here, things wouldn't be right. And if you take that away from a child, it erodes their self-esteem terribly.

KING: Greenville, North Carolina, we go to calls for Dr. Phil. Hello.

CALLER: Hi, how are you tonight?

KING: Fine.

MCGRAW: Good evening.

CALLER: Hi, Dr. Phil.

MCGRAW: How are you? What's your question?

CALLER: My question is regarding the sex addiction. I actually was -- sent in a story regarding this. I've been married for 10 years, and from day one, my husband has tried to get us to invite another male partner into our relationship. And I've refused to do this. And because of that, now at the ten-year mark, he's saying our marriage is over, and it's all my fault. And I just -- I don't understand what -- why it's important? Why does a man have to have another party...

KING: And he wanted -- ma'am, he wanted it to be a male?

CALLER: Yes.

KING: OK, doctor.

MCGRAW: First, let me tell you that I'm sorry you wasted 10 years on this loser. Because if he's telling you, you either do a three-way sexual relationship with me or I'm out of here, then you just need to tell him not to let the door hit him in the ass, because you don't want that kind of relationship. You don't want that kind of demeaning. And he is just unhealthy in what he's thinking and doing.

You never solve relationship problems by turning away from your partner to somebody outside. That is unhealthy. It is unsafe. It is just not right. So if that's what he wants, and he's been fixated it to the point he's going to run you off if you don't, you're better off to know it now than later.

KING: Huma, Louisiana, hello.

CALLER: Hi, yes. Dr. Phil, my mom has always been my best friend. And she's been recently diagnosed with dementia, namely Alzheimer's, and she is -- the whole family's in denial, and I'm the only one who's kind of carrying the burden of everything. But she's become very competitive with me. She makes very degrading comments about my parenting skills. And I have to say, I'm not the best mom, but I'm a good mom. I use positive discipline, and she doesn't understand the way that I get my children to do the things I do. I don't hit and I don't yell, and she doesn't understand, so she thinks to let them do whatever they want.

MCGRAW: What's your question?

CALLER: We got into a minor disagreement on January 2, and she still isn't talking to me. And I've apologized. I don't know where the line is between...

KING: Dr. Phil understands dementia and he understands Alzheimer's.

MCGRAW: First off, it's very important that you...

KING: It is progressive, right?

MCGRAW: It is very progressive. And it's very important that you not take this personally. And it's so hard when you say, well, it's me she's not talking to, it's me she's criticizing, it's me that's being the brunt, but have you really to step back and understand that this gets to a point where it is an involuntary thing for her. She may well be having some very circular thinking at this point, and not be reasoning particularly well.

If you will be patient. And, listen, that doesn't mean that you allow her to abuse you in a repetitive fashion. But you have to be patient, be supportive, be understanding, but don't enable her by not requiring her to be as accountable as she possibly can be. If you begin to treat her like a baby or an invalid, then that is an insult to her. So, don't take her dignity away by condescending to her, but don't take it personal.

And truly, talk to your neurologist, talk to your physician, and see if there are things that you can do with medications and all that can ease some of this. You will get past this.

KING: It's hard not to take it personally.

MCGRAW: It is hard not to take it personal, because you have such a history with your mother. And it's the same voice, it's the same countenance, it's the same tone of voice of when she's been disappointed with you, but it may not be a conscious choice on her part.

KING: You've got a show coming on, is my son a sexual predator?

MCGRAW: Larry, we do. I believe in all the years I've been doing television, you know, 5 years on Oprah and 3 years now here with the thousands of guests that I've dealt with, this may be the single most compelling story that I've ever encountered.

A very loving and caring family wrote in and said, we fear that our son may, in fact, be abusing our daughter. And he's an adult now, he's 19. We've reached out for help, and nobody -- everybody says, until something happens, we can't do anything, we don't have any proof. And nobody will talk to him, nobody will confront him, nobody will find out what the situation is. We're lost. We don't know what to do. Will you help us?

And he agreed to participate and talk about these things. So, we really do a deconstruction of sexual molestation in the family, the effects that it has on everybody involved. And there is a 5-year-old little girl involved in this story that hangs in the balance.

KING: When does it air?

MCGRAW: And -- it's coming up in -- I think it's sometime next week. Watch for it on our Web site, drphil.com. It's, is my son a sexual predator? And I believe, really, it is the single most compelling story I've ever dealt with.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Dr. Phil. Get a few more calls in right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want her to know that somewhere in me I do love her. It's just very hard for me.

MCGRAW: That anger should be at this guy that lied to you. You're displacing this to an innocent child because she can't take up for herself. This isn't about her. Are you going to be a bitter, cold, denying, rejected mother for the whole rest of your life because of something that happened five years ago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope not.

MCGRAW: Is this a life sentence that you're going to serve and that Lily's (ph) going to serve? You made a mistake. She is not a mistake. I believe that people have the children they are supposed to have.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: Take another call for Dr. Phil.

Santa Barbara, California, hello. Santa Barbara, are you there?

Santa Barbara.

CALLER: Yes, I'm here. Dr. Phil...

KING: Yes, go -- yes, go ahead.

CALLER: Dr. Phil, I think it's great that your show addresses domestic violence and spousal abuse quite often. I watch your show.

MCGRAW: Thank you.

CALLER: However, I wish my husband would have broken my arm or punched me in the nose, and that it was something people could actually see. I'm a victim of emotional and the worst kind of physical violence against a woman, which is rape. I've never heard you speak about spousal rape, Dr. Phil. I live in a community where there is, you know, very wealthy people, and I went to rape crisis, and I was practically thrown out. Nobody understands the fact that my husband raped me for 20 years. And I know...

KING: Are you still married?

CALLER: ... Larry King, don't ask him why I stayed with him, because Dr. Phil, tell him why women stay in a situation like that.

KING: I'll ask it with a further question, a husband can rape a wife?

MCGRAW: Absolutely. Just because you fill out some paperwork down at the courthouse doesn't mean that you give up the right to control your body, the right to control access to your body.

KING: Why don't people believe her? Why don't...

MCGRAW: I'm not sure who she's been talking to, but, you know, the problem is, when you are abusing someone, the primary tool of the abuser is isolation. They get the victim to themselves, where they don't have resources, they don't have people that will support them that they can reach out to. And what abuse victims have to do, is to find those resources and take that step to reach out. I've talked to so many women who have said, you know, I'm physically abused by my husband. I need to stand up and get in his face and tell him not to. That's the absolute wrong thing to do. If you do that, you will get beat up severely. You may get hurt. You may get killed. What you have to do is learn what your resources are. Reach out to the women shelters, reach out to your church, to your family. I promise you that if this woman reaches out to responsible people at her church or at her community services and shelters, they will listen, they will help.

KING: Have you done a show on marital rape?

MCGRAW: we have not done show on spousal rape, but it is certainly on our radar screen to do.

KING: Doctor, always a great pleasure. Look forward to the next visit.

MCGRAW: Larry, thank you so much.

KING: Look forward to the special.

All right, let me run them down. Dr. Phil's special will be on the CBS on February 15, the night after Valentine's Day, "Romance Rescue." Upcoming shows, and we've seen some clips of what's coming, scary trends, addicted to sex, sexual predator son, celebrity obsessed.

The book "Family First," still a major best seller in hard cover. And now in paper back, "The Ultimate Weight Solution: The Seven Keys to Weight Loss Freedom." All that from the mind, concept, Dr. Phil McGraw, one of my favorite folk. I'll be back in a couple minutes. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Aaron Brown is off tonight, and who's sitting in? They bring her in from the morning, Soledad O'Brien, mother of twins, but carrying on, will host "NEWSNIGHT."

Now yesterday, Nate 'N Al's, right here in Beverly Hills, I saw Jeff Greenfield, and he said he's with Schwarzenegger, for you show. What's going on?

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, GUEST HOST "NEWSNIGHT": That's right, that's who he's talking to. And lots to talk about this evening about Arnold Schwarzenegger, not only about how he's being received in California, but of course, in his native Austria as well this evening, Larry.

KING: Go get them Soledad.

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