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DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired February 11, 2005 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have we not done well enough? Did we do the wrong things?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we are now confronted (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to send your reinforcement. You use Charlie to reinforce Company Bravo, to reinforce success. You don't reinforce failure.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: I have always cooperated and we will wait for the results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: Senior U.N. officials went east and southwest looking for support under continued Oil For Food pressure.

Welcome to DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.

Secretary-General Kofi Annan sent letters to two U.N. long-time employees outlining the Oil For Food allegations against them. Former Oil For Food Director Benon Sevan and U.N. sanctions officer at the time Joseph Stephanides now have about a week and a half to appeal.

In London, some encouraging words for Secretary-General Annan, whose son is also being investigated, from Britain's Tony Blair.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MIN.: It's been a tough time in the international community and it's been a very tough time for the U.N. secretary-general. I happen to think in that very tough time that he has handled himself with very great distinction.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Before leaving for London, Kofi Annan told me he is cooperating with Volcker, who reportedly delayed some conclusions as he combs through personal e-mails and correspondence between father and son, Kojo. So far, only two U.N. officials have been accused of conflict of interest activities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNAN: We acted on the report as soon as it came out, and this is not the end. It's the beginning. And we will act on the other reports, other (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the report, as they come out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: As Annan toured European capitals, his chief of staff visited the capital of the United States. Mark Malloch Brown talked with key congressional figures, several not inclined at this time to say "Give Kofi my best."

Joining us is Congressman (AUDIO GAP) from Texas. Mr. Barton serves as chairman of one of the congressional committees investigating Oil For Food. And in Washington, former U.S. Assistant Secretary of Defense and now director of the International Security and Defense Policy Center at the RAND Corporation, James Dobbins. Thank you both.

Congressman Barton, I think Mark Malloch Brown talked with your staff. I'm not sure if you had a word with him. Right now, how big do you think the Oil For Food scandal really is, after the Volcker first report? We talked about it last week. I mean, so far two people have been named. It's not like an $80 billion scandal so far. What do you think?

U.S. REP. JOE BARTON (R-TX): Well, what's happened so far is the United Nations has basically used Paul Volcker and his personal integrity as a human shield to try to prevent the congressional investigations, like I'm chairing.

We've got some of the source documents which we've received from the State Department. I personally have been to Iraq and looked at some of the documents, many of which are in Arabic. We're beginning to translate those.

If the U.N. really wants to get to the bottom of it, they ought to release all of their source documents, not just to the Volcker Commission but to the congressional investigation commissions like I'm chairing right now. Do it now.

ROTH: James Dobbins, what do you think of that?

JAMES DOBBINS, RAND CORP.: Well, I think the allegations are serious and substantial, but I do think that you need to put this in perspective.

The fact is that no U.S. money was lost. Not a penny of United States taxpayer money was lost. No U.N. money was lost. It was Iraqi money that was stolen, and it was stolen primarily by Iraqis. Now, it's unfortunate that the U.N. oversight was unable to prevent this, but on the other hand, the U.N. sanctions regime, of which this was a part, was very substantially successful in preventing Saddam Hussein from developing or redeveloping a weapons of mass destruction program and was extremely successful in weakening the Iraqi military capability.

ROTH: All right, Congressman Barton, do you think the scandal is worse? I mean, do you trust Volcker and shouldn't a lot of your anger be, once again, we've said it on the show before, the State Department and the United States had a seat on the Council and those countries knew what might have been happening and didn't want to fight it because of sanctions they wanted to keep in place.

BARTON: Well, the United States and Great Britain were the only two members that really tried to monitor the program. Keep in mind that Saddam Hussein got to pick the vendors himself. He had personal lists of people that got oil vouchers. He did everything.

ROTH: The United States could have vetoed that.

BARTON: Well, the United States only had one group of individuals on the sanctions committee, and I think they were the only ones who really tried to monitor. Everybody else said, you know, let it go, let everything go by, and didn't really try to impact it.

ROTH: James Dobbins, is it just a group of critics at the United Nations who are upset that the war was not approved by the Council and are looking for something and overlooking other scandals? Or is this going to be a very deep problem that is going to set the United Nations back for decades as people are not going to trust it?

DOBBINS: Well, I don't know if it is going to set it back for decades, but it is a serious problem and there is no doubt that if the United Nations is going to be assigned responsibilities on this scale again, it's going to need to be significantly strengthened.

The congressman put his finger on the problem, which was that the Security Council let Saddam choose the customers, which made kickbacks absolutely inevitable and created a situation in which the United Nations might have marginally done better, but it would have been impossible to actually prevent the kinds of kickbacks that occurred.

ROTH: Congressman Barton, a lot of the panels want documents. The United Nations says, you know, it can't, it's an international institution, and the State Department has a lot of the documents anyway.

BARTON: The State Department does have documents, and we have received numerous documents from the State Department. We also are trying to get an agreement with the Iraqi government to get access to their original documents in Iraq, but that does not absolve the United Nations from doing what's right right now. It, to me, is indicative of the United Nations that instead of trying to cooperate, they're hiding behind Paul Volcker and they're stonewalling this.

You know, they setup an honor system with a person who wasn't honorable, Saddam Hussein, and now want the rest of the world to just say, well, that's just $30 or $40 billion. No big deal.

DOBBINS: It's also important to recognize that a U.N. created commission is investigating allegations that the United States authorities in Iraq misspent hundreds of millions or indeed billions of dollars of Iraqi money in the early months of the occupation. Now, we all know there were extenuating circumstances. The money wasn't stolen, but it may not have been fully accounted for.

So we have, you know, two pots calling each other black here. In both cases, put in the perspective of what actually was accomplished and the reasons that these efforts were going forward, we have blemishes on otherwise successful performances.

BARTON: With all due respect, we'll investigate that and we'll get to the bottom of it, and if there is things that need to be corrected or charges that need to be brought, they'll be brought.

But, again, Saddam Hussein used this Oil For Food program, an ostensibly humanitarian effort, to rearm his country, to pay off and bribe officials all over the world, to play winners and losers, you know, pick favorites and at least I believe -- I haven't been able to prove it yet, but I believe because of that you had a lot of the officials at the United Nations on the Security Council that basically became lobbyists for taking the sanctions off of Saddam Hussein, which I just think it is irresponsible to let a dictator who luckily now is in prison in Baghdad, let him abuse this money for his own personal political reasons and say we shouldn't worry about it. I think we ought to not only find the perpetrators, and if we can bring them to justice do that, if we can recover the oil monies and send them back to the Iraqis, we ought to do that.

ROTH: There are reports still to come.

BARTON: . and we ought to change the system so that it doesn't happen again.

ROTH: But the United Nations seems to be taking all the heat, though, and everybody.

BARTON: They should take all the heat. The United Nations should take all the heat.

ROTH: What about the Security Council?

BARTON: Well, the Security Council is part of the United Nations.

ROTH: Nobody wants to talk about that -- no, but that's made up of countries. There is the U.N. bureaucracy. Why not publicly come out and say under several presidents we slept -- or we let Saddam Hussein do what he wanted because we needed sanctions?

BARTON: Well, I conducted the first investigation into this program way back in the Clinton administration and the Clinton administration were apologists for the program. So I was on the case with Congressman Ralph Hall back in 1996 and 1997. I mean, I was trying to do the right thing then.

If the United Nations is going to hold itself up to be an international institution for truth, truth and justice, they ought to at least police themselves and on this particular program, which was a multi- multi-billion dollar rip off, they've done nothing but rope-a-dope and hide and cover and right now they're using Paul Volcker as what I call a human shield.

ROTH: Well, the United States voted for him to be the man.

But, James Dobbins, go ahead.

DOBBINS: I think there is one thing we have to remember. Saddam Hussein did try to do all of the things the congressman has said, but he didn't succeed. He did not succeed in diverting enough money to strengthen his forces or to reconstitute a weapons of mass destruction program.

So the U.N. sanctions were almost totally successful, despite these serious blemishes.

ROTH: All right. We've got to unfortunately stop there. Congressman Barton, on the left -- I'm not sure that's where he is politically, but he's in Texas. And on the right is James Dobbins with the RAND Institute and he is former assistance secretary of defense for the United States and he was involved when he was in government with several issues that certain effect the United Nations. I have a hunch that both of these men may be on again as we continue to follow Oil For Food here. Thank you both for appearing on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE.

BARTON: Pleasure.

DOBBINS: Thank you, sir.

ROTH: Oil For Food is a complicated international affair. We leave it to American comedian Jay Leon on NBC's "Tonight Show" this week to break down what Oil For Food now stands for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, NBC TALK SHOW HOST: A lot of American companies now moving into Iraq. Iraq now has Pizza Hut, Subway, Taco Bell and Popeye's Fried Chicken. Instead of Oil For Food we're giving them oil in food. That's what we're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fighting on the job continues. The ceasefire has not been kept. Those responsible for atrocious crimes on a massive scale still go unpunished.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Just the facts, ma'am. From Jan Pronk, the United Nations' man for Sudan. And those facts haven't changed, no matter how many times Pronk appears before the United Nations Security Council.

As we have been telling you, the Security Council's 15 countries can't even agree on where to prosecute those responsible for those heinous crimes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By whatever name called, the crimes committed in Darfur were heinous and must not go unpunished. As matters stand, the international community risks allowing the guilty to escape punishment simply because there is no consensus on the appropriate forum to prosecute the crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The United States wants a special court in Arusha, Tanzania to try suspects. Many Council countries prefer the International Criminal Court in the Hague.

The plot thickened Tuesday when the visiting Sudanese first vice president said they don't want any prosecution outside of the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We strongly believe that there are no grounds to warrant taking suspects outside the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the international community has been (AUDIO GAP). We have had these situations where there is a question as to the depth and cooperation that we can get from a particular country, but again the key is for everyone to recognize what was needed, the response that is needed now, and also what is needed to assure effective accountability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: As you could tell, a lot of players were at the United Nations. The Sudanese first vice president sat at the Security Council table with a man who has been leading rebels against the government for 20 years.

John Garang is going to join the revised Sudanese government following the peace deal to end 21 years of civil war between North and South of Sudan. That's not quieted Darfur, though.

Garang talked with United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan and earlier in the day he shared a few moments in a U.N. hallway with me.

I asked how a student at a small college in Iowa in the Midwest of the United States goes on to become a rebel commander back home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN GARANG, SUDANESE OPPOSITION LEADER: We have tried our best under very difficult circumstances to fight a war on behalf of our people in southern Sudan, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) negotiate a comprehensive peace agreement.

Yes, those values, the liberal arts education at Grinnell and also my graduate studies at Iowa State University, one year at Fort Benning infantry school. And so in a way also the United States has contributed towards my formation as a military leader as well as a political leader in Sudan.

Before I came to Grinnell, I had already joined the first movement and was already a guerilla then. And after I finished Grinnell, I rejoined that guerilla movement, joined the Sudanese Army as a result of the 1972 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) agreement. So it's an issue of justice and the government is in Khartoum since 1956 until the comprehensive peace agreement that we have signed, have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) very seriously on the people of southern Sudan, and so all southern Sudanese rebelled. It was not just me alone but it was something that confronted our generation.

The same thing is now happening in Darfur. The same thing is happening in eastern Sudan. So there must be fundamental change so that Sudan is a country that accepts all of its citizens equally, whether they are of Arab origin or of African origin (AUDIO GAP) that we want to bring about.

ROTH: Well, that only took (AUDIO GAP). What is going to be the secret to resolving Darfur (AUDIO GAP).

GARANG: We will use the (AUDIO GAP) solving problems in other parts of the country. In involves the principles of decentralization, self- government, autonomy for the regions, power-sharing, wealth-sharing, security arrangements. This can be applied and adapted to western Sudan, Darfur, as well as to eastern Sudan.

I think the internal situation in the Sudan is conducive enough with respect to (AUDIO GAP) war in Darfur, to have another war in eastern Sudan, and for that matter we, as part of a new government, a government of national unity that will come into power under an international constitution, would also contribute our part in having new policies in Khartoum, and that is what is really different. There is a peace agreement that will have the SPLM as part of the prospective government that is coming.

ROTH: The African Union representative said he hoped you could use your Midas touch on the Darfur problem. What do you think of that?

GARANG: Midas touch in a positive way. Yes, well, as I said before, we have a political and moral obligation to contribute positively to the resolution of the conflict (AUDIO GAP).

Before I came to New York, I traveled to Kenya, to Ethiopia and to Asmara (ph), where most of the Darfur armed opposition are based and also the Eastern Sudan Armed Opposition, and I interacted with them, and I am confident that using the Navasha (ph) protocols and a comprehensive peace agreement, which we have signed, that can be applied and adapted successfully to bring about peace in these two regions.

ROTH: Many have said the two crises are linked. You don't agree. You don't think that the North-South is linked to Darfur, right? Why is that?

GARANG: They are not unlinked. They are linked in the sense that implementation of the South-North comprehensive peace agreement, if we implement it, it will positively contribute towards solving the problem of Darfur.

But if they are linked in a negative sense of let us freeze implementation of the comprehensive peace agreement we have signed until we find a solution in Darfur, that is what I am objecting to. Again, using my Fort Benning experience, if you are a battalion commander and you are in battle, your two companies, Alpha and Bravo are engaged, and you have Charlie in reserve, Alpha is doing very bad, getting a bloody nose, and Bravo is doing very well and you are now confronted where to send you reinforcement and you use Charlie to reinforce Company Bravo, to reinforce success. You don't reinforce failure.

So I am urging the international community to implement the comprehensive peace agreement so that it impacts on Darfur and brings about a comprehensive peace agreement.

ROTH: Why should the rebels in Darfur give up or agree to a deal when you kept fighting and got more and more support and worked out an arrangement?

GARANG: We are certain that we must have a fair and just political settlement. It is not just any political settlement. A settlement that is based on autonomy and self-government for Darfur. A settlement that is based on fair and just wealth sharing, political sharing and security arrangements would be acceptable to the armed opposition in Darfur, and they assured me of this when I discussed with them in Asmara (ph) only two or three days ago.

ROTH: Does this achieve anything, today's meeting?

GARANG: Well, look at the comprehensive peace agreement which we have signed. It is truly an African product. The Sudanese have ownership of it. We negotiated this agreement for 10 years, since 1994, and from 2002 and 2003 I personally sat with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for 16 months in Navasha (ph) and we thrashed out this agreement.

It is a unique agreement that prescribes a two systems/one country model where the South would have its own army, where we will have one central bank with two widows, one window for Islamic banking in the North and one window for conventional banking in the South. It's a unique agreement that, if implement, would bring about peace in not only the Sudan but in the whole region.

I believe that this is an agreement that is both regional as well as continental in its dimensions and impact.

ROTH: Thrashing in Navasha (ph) may be the title of your book when you discuss how it took many years and months to get the agreement worked out. John Garang, thank you very much. Good luck as vice president in the future for your country.

GARANG: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

How many puppet regimes hold seats in the United Nations? While you count them up, behold the Guangzhou Puppet Troupe from Southeast China's Fujian Province. First time appearance, they say, for the Chinese Spring Festival at the United Nations.

This week, of course, the reason and celebration for the start of the Chinese New Year, the Year of the Rooster.

I could tell you what my year is astrologically according to the charts, but then you would learn where I live.

A gloomy day outside the United Nations this week. The day after news that one of the architects who designed the U.N. building had died. Rain drops were tears, symbolic honor of George Dudley, who passed away at the age of 90. Nearly 10 years ago, DIPLOMATIC LICENSE spoke with Dudley about the planning for the architecture of the United Nations at a New York exhibit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE DUDLEY, DECEASED ARCHITECT: We went through 45 meetings which takes a bit of patience to come through. The number of schemes that were proposed were 75 by the time we got through. On the side, it was from 42nd Street up to 48th and in the middle three blocks. They were the very large slaughterhouses of the meat processing companies. Cattle would be brought in by ship and slaughtered there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The outside look of Dudley's work has been tainted by security film placed on all the windows and who knows what the planned renovation of the structure will do.

After the cows came asbestos, mice and all that cigarette smoke.

A friend of Dudley reportedly said the whole world would look a lot better looking if George Dudley had been in charge of it.

That's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth, in New York. Thanks for watching.

END

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