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CNN Saturday Night

Military Trainers Suspended After Death of Recruit; Interview With 'SNL' Producer

Aired February 19, 2005 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN SATURDAY NIGHT. Military trainers suspended tonight after a young recruit dies. There are fresh developments tonight. And it seems it's only raining in southern California. You will see the dramatic rescues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHEVY CHASE, ACTOR: Live from New York, it's "Saturday Night."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: It was a phenomenon. My guest tonight talks about the laughter and the tears and the first five groundbreaking years of "Saturday Night Live."

These stories and a lot more next on CNN SATURDAY NIGHT.

Good evening, I'm Carol Lin from the CNN Center. Straight ahead this hour, a CNN investigation. Buying a high powered rifle on the Internet. Is it really as simple as online shopping?

Also, the Michael Jackson case, how long will it take to pick a jury? And who will the witnesses be? We have got a list you've got to see.

And what if your state taxed you by the mile for your commute? Could a new California proposal be a model for other states, too?

But up first tonight, first, there was the videotape. Tonight, CNN has learned that five Marines are suspended after this recruit dies in boot camp. He's highlighted in just a moment. He died one day after a confrontation with a drill instructor at Parris Island.

Jason Bellini's been working the story all evening. And he's got some late breaking developments -- Jason?

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol. I spoke just a short while ago with a spokesperson at Parris Island. He told me a total of five Marines are now suspected of wrongdoing related to Marine recruit Jason Tharp. Before today, only Tharp's drill instructor had been suspended. That was before the airing of this video.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The video shows Marine recruit Jason Tharp standing next to the pool, as he's grabbed by his boot camp drill instructor. Tharp walks out of frame. When he returns, his drill instructor strikes him.

Colombia, South Carolina affiliate WIS shot the video of Tharp from a distance, so there's no sound. WIS found out later the Marine the camera had focused on died the very next day.

A Marine official at Parris Island says he died as a result of complications in the water during combat water survival training.

JOHNNY THARP, JASON THARP'S FATHER: He's just the kindest, gentlest person I ever knew.

BELLINI: WIS showed its video to Tharp's parents, who live in West Virginia.

THARP: I don't know how they could treat my son the way we saw on that video. He never hurt nobody. He'd do anything if anybody asked him. It's just not right.

BELLINI: Marine officials at the Pentagon say the actions by the drill instructors seen in the video appear to violate regulations for dealing with recruits.

EUGENE FIDELL, NATL. INST. OF MILITARY JUSTICE: Basically, you're not supposed to lay your hands on a recruit. You don't really want to have drill instructors grabbing a recruit by the collar, which is what happened here. And also, you don't want them sort of basically hitting people with their elbows.

BELLINI: During his five weeks at Parris Island, Tharp told his family that he wanted out of the Marines.

THARP: We just wanted to give -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but bring him home.

BELLINI: In his last letter, postmarked February 2nd, Tharp wrote he was starting swim qualifications the next day. Tharp died February 8th.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Jason know how to swim?

THARP: Not pretty good. But they assured us, the recruiters said nothing would happen. They have enough people in the pool where nothing would happen to him.

BELLINI: The Tharps don't know if the physical contact the drill instructor had with their son related in any way to his death.

THARP: WE can't understand why. And my little girl, all she knows is her big brother's in heaven.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BELLINI: Three separate agencies are now investigating the situation that you saw on the videotape. They're also looking into the death of Jason Tharp -- Carol?

LIN: Jason, earlier we knew about the drill instructor's suspension. How did they identify the four others who have been suspended since?

BELLINI: The Marine spokesperson I spoke with told me that they looked at the video themselves. They saw who was in the video. And they found those individuals. And they decided to suspend them on the possibility that they were involved in wrongdoing by not reporting what they saw happening in that situation.

LIN: All right. About a month of investigation is what I understand?

BELLINI: At least a month.

LIN: All right, hopefully they'll get some answers, especially for the family. Thank you.

In the meantime, turning our attention to the new Iraq now, where today was a special day. It was a holy day, but as we have grown too accustomed to hearing, it was also a violent and deadly one.

One American soldier is dead, along with about two dozen Iraqis after five separate suicide bombings. CNN's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in Baghdad tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Ashura, commemorating an ancient battle, always was going to be a bloody day. Tens of thousands of Shiites converging on shrines in Baghdad in the holy city of Karbala, the most devout cutting their heads and whipping themselves en route, dismissive of Sunni insurgents who killed dozens of worshipers on Friday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I heard about the explosions and they are un-Islamic. Whoever hurt the Muslims is not one of them.

ROBERTSON: But despise tight security in Baghdad, attackers did get through on this the holiest day of remembrance. One U.S. soldier killed and another wounded when a suicide bomber detonated explosives on a bus, killing as many as four Iraqis and wounding at least 22 others. At least six other suicide bombers targeted worshipers on the Baghdad streets, killing more than six and wounded at least 40. And in the southwest of the city, a suicide bomber on a bicycle killed three funeral goers and wounded 38.

Far removed from the violence, inside the super secure Green Zone, Senators Clinton, Collins, McCain, Graham and Feingold were beginning a fact finding tour. SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The one thing that I've learned from this trip, that we're a long way away from being able to leave, that if the Iraqi people want us to stay, we're going to be here for a while in large numbers.

ROBERTSON: Meetings with Iraqis, including 92 newly empowered Shias, apparently positive.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: The impression that I take away from just this short visit, after talking with not only the government officials, but some of our military and civilian leaders here in Iraq, is cautious optimism.

ROBERTSON: If an image capturing optimism were needed then this was probably it, pictures on Iraqi television from the holy city of Karbala showing Shias peacefully enjoying Ashura.

(on camera): Despite the attacks, Ashura, this year, has been far less bloody than a year ago. Notably, most of the attacks in Baghdad, the insurgents either unwilling or incapable of penetrating the security around the holy city of Karbala as they did last year with such violent effect.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: We're also following developments at the National Prison in Haiti. This is what we know right now. Armed men stormed the prison today, broke inside and freed a very high profile inmate, the country's former prime minister.

We have learned that Yvonne Neptune is now back in custody and that several people, including one or more prison guards were killed. We are trying to find out more from Port Au Prince.

Now we had to move through several of those top stories because so much happened tonight. But we want to move briefly back to our top story, the death of Marine recruit Jason Tharp.

Tharp's family demanded an investigation. And they finally got it, especially after they saw what happened on that videotape. They want to know if the way he was treated contributed in any way to his death.

Well, earlier, I spoke at length with Eugene Fidell, a former JAG or judge advocate general, who has prosecuted and defended Coast Guard cases.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Eugene, you've actually seen the videotape. From what you have seen, what do you think happened?

EUGENE FIDELL, MILITARY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, it was clear that the instructional staff at Parris Island were pretty frustrated with this particular recruit.

Unfortunately, the way they displayed their frustration, I think, was not in keeping, shall we say, with the highest tradition of the Marine Corps.

LIN: Well, the sergeant has been suspended. There is an investigation going on. Do you think that what you saw on this videotape, this interaction between the two, do you think that a crime was committed?

FIDELL: Well, I don't want to convict anybody on television, but I must say I think some prosecutor in the Marine Corps is probably going to be working over the weekend with his copy or her copy of the manual for courts martial and try to sort out whether this is an assault, whether it's two assaults, or whether it's...

LIN: Well, what's the standard? What's the standard? I mean, I as a civilian saw a commanding officer have physical contact with that Marine.

FIDELL: Right. There are certain kinds of let's say unconsented touchings that are probably permissible in the military. For example, if you saw a recruit whose uniform wasn't squared away, or say his name tag or some decoration wasn't squared away, I could imagine going over and either saying, "look, Marine get your uniform squared away" or you might adjust the decoration or the name tag manually, although I think that's pretty far from what was on this tape.

LIN: Shoving. Lightly punching. I mean, would that fall into an acceptable standard, do you think?

FIDELL: Not in my opinion, no.

LIN: Given that, it's not unheard of that recruits die during training?

FIDELL: No. Tragically, it does happen from time to time. And indeed, only a few years ago, there was a fatality at a Navy pool in Florida. Interestingly in the past, there were training deaths at Parris Island in the '50s, for example, that led to a very, very celebrated court martial in the case of Sergeant McCune, a case that later became the subject of a book and I think possibly a movie.

So unfortunately, this does happen from time to time. And I think all the services have got to be very alert. And I think they are very alert to the need to crack down on...

LIN: All right.

FIDELL: ...you know, dangerous situations.

LIN: Eugene Fidell, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Again, the latest development tonight is that now a total of five Marines have been suspended, pending an investigation that is likely to take at least a month. We're going to stay on top of this story.

In the meantime, in the United States right here, our investigative team is about to show you how easy it is to get a weapon that can slice through a cockpit door. It is just an Internet site away. And it's a story you'll only see on CNN.

Also, Michael Jackson is out of the hospital and headed back to court.

And coming up later, TV history in the making, a look back at the start of "Saturday Night Live."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: What we are about to show you may surprise you. CNN bought a gun, a really big gun, made for war. The surprising part is how we got our hands on it.

Now we did it legally and we did it easily. In this report, you'll only see right here on CNN, investigative correspondent Drew Griffin went online shopping. And wait until you see what he brought home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: To buy a gun, even a .50 caliber gun, this huge gun, you just need to go to your computer and click on one of the biggest classified gun sites, which in our case is gunsamerica.com. AK-47s, shotguns, pistols, all kinds of rifles.

But what we wanted to buy was the biggest caliber rifle you could possibly buy. And that's this category right here, .50 caliber rifles.

This is the gun that is now banned in California. And on this Web site, we have about three dozen of them for sale. But what we're looking for is one that is not being sold by a dealer. See where it says "federal licensed firearm dealer?" We are trying to find one that's being sold by just a private citizen.

This is actually the one we bought. When you finally find the gun you want on this Web site, and you're dealing with a private party, you just give him your e-mail. And you send him a note "let's set up a meeting, I'm paying cash." And the next thing you know, we're going to buy our gun.

(voice-over): But before I shelled out $2500 to buy this gun, I wanted to make sure I could buy ammunition. That turned out to be as easy as ordering flowers. With just a couple of clicks on my computer, I ordered and paid by credit card for .50 caliber armor piercing rounds.

They were delivered in a week. Shells as long as my hand delivered, no questions asked, by UPS. I could have even bought tracer rounds if I'd wanted. Now it was time to get the gun.

(on camera): What we're about to do is perfectly legal in dozens of states where cash and carry is the rule. A private seller, a private buyer. There will be no background check, no government waiting period, no government paperwork at all. In fact, the only paper that will change hands is the money we use to buy our .50 caliber rifle.

(voice-over): The transaction at a house in suburban Houston took about 20 minutes. We walked out with a case holding the gun critics say is the perfect terrorist weapon, a brand new .50 caliber with scope bipod and directions.

We flew home. Guns are checked as baggage. And when the bags arrived for our flight, I simply picked it up and left.

Ronnie Barrett, who manufactures .50 caliber rifles, believes as an American, it is your right to own one.

Isn't that particular gun in the hands of a terrorist dangerous?

RONNIE BARRETT, BARRETT MANUFACTURING: We're not talking about terrorists. We're disarming here civilians. These laws have nothing to do with terrorism.

GRIFFIN: Barrett's company makes one of the most popular and top of the line .50 caliber rifles on the market, a semi automatic favored by armies around the world, but Barrett says his company couldn't survive on military orders alone. And what keeps all these workers busy is its popularity among recreational shooters.

Barrett says it may be effective on the battlefield, but on the target range, it's just plain fun.

Should there be any regulations on your guns?

BARRETT: There should be regulations on criminals.

GRIFFIN: Gun control advocates want a federal ban on this weapon. Their reasoning? Anything that can hit a target at 1,000 yards with a bullet the size of a small artillery shell could certainly pose a major threat to aircraft.

(on camera): But the question at most of the nation's airports is not what you could do with a .50 caliber gun at 1,000 yards. Here at LAX, a would-be terrorist could get within less than 1,000 feet.

(voice-over): This week at a police gun range, I found out what this gun could do to the emergency exit door of a Boeing 727 fired from 1,000 feet away. The gun is very heavy, not easy to maneuver, but took only a few moments to set up. The first time I fired it, I missed after adjusting for the site. Round after armored piercing round went straight through the door.

But just about any gun could pierce the think aluminum skin of an airplane. What scares law enforcement is what else this round can do when fired from this gun. This is a one inch thick piece of steel plate, more protection than almost any armored car. The .50 caliber goes right through the aircraft door and right through one inch steel.

Wow, right through.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right through it, baby.

GRIFFIN: That's where it came out. That's where it went it. One inch steel plate. Just unbelievable.

(on camera): Had we purchased this gun from a federal firearms dealer, it would have required a background check, some paperwork, and proof of residency and age. But because this was a private sale between a buyer and a seller from the same state, this transaction was simply cash and carry. No record of this gun whatsoever.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security. And please join us tomorrow night because Drew Griffin again has more on the practice of outsourcing airline maintenance. Just who is keeping those planes airworthy? That is tomorrow night, right here on CNN.

And that leads me to our last call question. What, if anything, should the homeland security department be doing about this? Give us a call at 1-800-807-2620.

Coming up, putting aside their differences and offering hope. Just ahead, former Presidents Bush and Clinton touch down in Thailand. But first, their stops in the tsunami region.

And police finally track down a rape suspect wanted for a string of violent attacks on women, young and old after he was released from prison.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Here's what's happening around the nation right now. Today, the U.S. and Japan called on North Korea to return to six party talks aimed at ending its nuclear program. The joint declaration came after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld held talks in Washington with their Japanese counterparts.

Investigators in Dallas are trying to determine the cause of this massive blaze. The fire broke out this morning in a seven story apartment building under renovation near Love Field in northwest Dallas. More than 100 firefighters responded. No injuries are being reported.

And the hockey season is still canceled at least for now. The NHL says 6.5 hours of hastily arranged talks today produced no progress. Hockey great Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux took part in today's discussions. The NHL canceled the season Wednesday after failing to reach agreement with players on a salary cap.

Now in Denver tonight, Denver police believe they finally have their man, a convicted sex offender and suspected serial rapist. The ex con is suspected of committing a string of violent sexual assaults that spread fear throughout the city.

CNN's Denise Belgrave has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DENISE BELGRAVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Denver police, this week's massive manhunt and arrest of a serial rapist was personal.

DAVE FISHER, DENVER POLICE: I can't remember a case in which there's been more sweat and tears and just great concern. I talked last night to these men and women who have put so much into this. This is our community. And it means so much to have this moment and this success.

BELGRAVE: Over 200 law enforcement officials mobilized around the clock to track down Brent J. Friends. The 35-year old convicted child sex offender is suspected of raping two women and two 11-year old sisters and their 67-year old grandmother.

Police say Brent's crime spree started eight days ago and ended on Friday night, when he attacked his last victim. Brent stole her car and cellphone, a mistake that would ultimately help lead to his capture.

GERRY WHITMAN, CHIEF, DENVER POLICE: As soon as we determined there was a cell phone and the number went up on Nat (ph), and started tracking it. When I talked to the sergeant up in Glenwood Springs who was involved in this, it was their police department, they took the information that the detectives provided them, set up on the highway, and basically waited for the suspect vehicle to drive through.

BELGRAVE: Brent's arrest comes amid criticism of the nearby Aurora, Colorado police department. On November 23rd, Brents was interviewed about allegations that he molested an eight-year old boy. But it wasn't until two months later that Aurora officials issued a warrant for Brent's arrest. Aurora police chief Ricky Bennett defended his unit's actions.

RICKY BENNETT, CHIEF, AURORA POLICE: All I can tell you is that statements were made from the individual we believe committed the crime, but I don't know that it's a confession. Statements were made.

BELGRAVE: Back in Denver, residents held a vigil to let the victims know their community supports them.

Denise Belgrave, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: A different kind of controversy starting out West, but it could affect you soon. We're talking about going the extra mile and that it could actually cost you every mile you drive. Straight ahead, details on a proposed tax hike that will have many commuters crying foul.

Also, wild weather out West forcing many families from their homes. We've got the latest and the amazing pictures straight ahead.

And don't forget our last call question. What, if anything, should the homeland security department be doing about people buying high powered rifles online? Give us a call at 1-800-807-2620.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Shiite faithful across the Arab world observing their holy day called Ashura today. And some of the rituals to outsiders can appear very shocking indeed. For example, a common practice during the holiday to ritually whip, beat, or cut oneself, often until bloody to recall the suffering of a seventh century cleric.

In Iraq, Shiite worshipers marched to holy sites in Baghdad and Karbala. Observing Ashura was forbidden during Saddam Hussein's presidency.

And President Bush heads to Europe tomorrow for five days of meetings and fence mending. In his radio address today, Mr. Bush said he will stress the common values shared by the U.S. and Europe.

The U.S.S. Jimmy Carter was commissioned today in Connecticut. The $3.2 billion submarine is the most heavily armed submarine ever built. It's also the first to be named after a living ex-president who took part in today's commissioning.

And now, Mother Nature's destructive might. Nearly two months since the Indian Ocean coastline was pummeled by tsunami waves. The two men leading America's relief project are right in the middle of the devastation zone. Two very influential men, even in their post White House years.

George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton. They left for Indonesia after touring Thai villages obliterated by December's disaster. Thailand was the first of many places the former presidents will tour on this trip. More on their mission in just a moment.

But first, washing away on the West Coast. Southern Californians have endured triple the average rainfall this season. Two inches in the past two days and no break in the forecast. Flooded roads, power knocked out, and nervous hillside residents are watching out for those mudslides.

Now south of Los Angeles in Long Beach, the Red Cross spun into action, opening emergency shelters for those forced from their homes by floodwaters. The speed and the relentlessness of the storms are surprising even born and bred Southern Californians have not seen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need a rescue on the southbound side.

LIN (voice-over): A welcome sound, the voice of rescuers, just in time to save a woman trapped in quickly rising water in Long Beach. The woman's cell phone, the saving grace. She called 911.

JIM ARVIZU, CAPT., LONG BEACH FIRE DEPT.: Water rescue team paddled out, were able to get into the car, get the seat belt.

LIN: Rescuers using a surf board took the woman to higher, drier ground. Cars overtaken by the water remained in working condition, but with nowhere to go.

The story is the same up and down the state. The rain keeps coming. Residents in Santa Clarita were forced out of this mobile home park, as rivers of water rushed through.

In Los Angeles, homeowners started sandbagging, taking no chances with flooding. Crews in Burbank struggled to secure the Virgin megastore. The excessive downpours were blamed for collapsing the roof there, causing $100,000 in damage.

For Golden State residents, enough is enough.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like rain, but too much is too much.

LIN: Add with California receiving three times the normal rainfall, the fear now is further mudslides.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right, but still, a blessing in disguise compared to what happened in South Asia with those massive tsunamis, killing more than 200,000 people.

And now, former Presidents Bush and Clinton have arrived in Indonesia and are headed for the tsunami hammered Aceh province. They spent Saturday in Thailand, as we just reported, seeing for themselves the size and the scope of the relief work that still lies ahead.

Aneesh Raman is in Phuket, Thailand right now, a city and a region still dealing with the very sharp reminders of what happened December 26.

Aneesh, what is this presidential visit mean to the people who are still trying to rebuild their lives there?

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It means more than anyone can imagine, Carol, for the people on the ground. It is a continued spotlight on their plight that could be years, if not decades in the making.

The former presidents now en route to Banda Aceh. There, they will likely see some of the more severe sights of destruction. But here in Thailand, it was about empathy and inspiration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kicking off a three-day tour through the region, former Presidents Clinton and Bush arrived in Phuket to witness firsthand the lingering aftermath of December tsunami. In the village of Bannamkam (ph), school children presented the two with drawings of the waves crashing down, waves that killed their parents.

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE United States: The one that gave me hers had lost her mother and all of this puts a very human face on this tragedy.

RAMAN: But amidst the emotions, an inspirational site, the village which lost close to half of its residents is being reborn. The former presidents also laid a wreath at the Wall of Remembrance, all day, reminding people that despite their at times contentious political history, this was a nonpartisan, human mission.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But on issues about which there could be no debate. That little girl that gave him the picture, you know, of her mother drowning, that's not something to politically debate.

RAMAN: Days after the tsunami hit, the current president called on Clinton and Bush Senior to lead a fund-raising effort in the United States. But now almost two months since the disaster, this visit is meant to combat donor fatigue, reminding Americans the giving cannot stop and showing leaders in the region America remains ready to help.

CLINTON: What we have to do now is not to forget these people in places when all of the cameras are not there. I think that's the most important message I could say to the American people.

RAMAN: From Phuket, the former presidents will travel onward to Indonesia and Sri Lank on Sunday before a final stop on Monday in the Maldives.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAMAN: And Carol, the simple truth is that the reconstruction here will have no definable end. It is simply a new reality. And the success of that reality is highly contingent upon the world never forgetting the events of December last year, Carol.

LIN: That is the biggest fear right now. Thank you very much, Aneesh Raman, reporting live by videophone from Phuket. We'll be following this story very carefully as you know.

In the meantime, we've got much more straight ahead on CNN, including the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. You will see some of the names and faces on the witness list. Can we say Ed Bradley from "60 MINUTES," Elizabeth Taylor, Jay Leno.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: In the Michael Jackson trial, jury selection resumes Tuesday after delays for Michael Jackson's brief hospitalization with the flu. And of course, it's the president's day -- holiday this weekend.

Steve Chawkins is covering the case for "The Los Angeles Times." And he joins me now for the latest on that.

Steve, is the defendant out of the hospital?

STEVE CHAWKINS, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Yes, Carol. He left the hospital yesterday. And you know, left under his own steam. And whether this will have an impact on jurors is yet to be seen.

LIN: Right, because personally, I've never known anybody to be hospitalized with the flu. I know it happens with elderly people, but I'm just curious what kind of an impact it might have in the courtroom, given that I mean he is superstar. I'm just wondering how the juror -- prospective jurors even react when he's in the room?

CHAWKINS: Well, you know, well when he's in the room, they kind of -- they don't want to be too obvious about staring. But you do see some craning of necks this way and that. And in fact, he wears clothing that is typical of Michael Jackson with kings of medallions and multi colored vests and shiny materials. So there is something to stare at.

As far as whether they'll resent or hold against him his illness, I don't know. If it were anyone else, I'd say no.

LIN: Right.

CHAWKINS: But with this being Michael Jackson, and with this having happened before, too, in other court cases, there have been delays because Michael Jackson has been taken ill. And one of those delays happened in this very courthouse in Santa Maria.

So I think maybe they'll give him a pass the first time, but...

LIN: Maybe.

CHAWKINS: ...if he does it again, it might be trouble.

LIN: Then again, they might feel sorry for him. I mean, who knows? He's under a lot of stress. His fans are sticking up for him. But in the meantime, it is a delay. All right? And when you take a look at some of the names that have been floated out there as prospective witnesses in this trial, I mean, it's an all star line-up.

Steve, we're putting up some pictures here. Ed Bradley from "60 MINUTES," Kobe Bryant, of all people, our own Larry King, Jay Leno, Elizabeth Taylor.

I mean, first of all, it's one thing to possibly call these people to testify. It's another thing to schedule these people. Can you imagine what a nightmare that could be?

CHAWKINS: Well, Carol, there were gasps in the courtroom when those names were read. In fact, I think, Ed Bradley was the first one on the list. And some eyebrows went up, as if well, I wonder if that's Ed Bradley of "60 MINUTES."

And then, when the list was finally read, a list of some 400 names on the defense side, people were boggled. They had everyone but Marilyn Monroe on that list.

LIN: All right.

CHAWKINS: And whether they're all called is another question, too.

LIN: Right.

CHAWKINS: You can certainly be on a defense list and not be called. The prosecution is claiming that the defense is just trying to dazzle the jurors with all the star power.

LIN: Well, you know, I can imagine the line coming out of the trial at that point is, you know, call my agent. Maybe we can do lunch.

CHAWKINS: Exactly.

LIN: But testifying might be a different matter. Steve, I wish we had more time. Thanks so much. And we're going to stay posted with you on this trial.

CHAWKINS: Thank you, Carol.

LIN: In the meantime, a pricey proposal for California drivers. Up next, the controversial tax idea that could levy charges for every mile folks drive to work.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Of the many talkers out there, this one we thought is fueling some controversy. Out there in the grand state of California, they are talking about taxing motorists for every mile they drive by placing tracking devices on their cars.

So let's see what our guests think about this. Radio host Stephanie Miller and Ben Ferguson, each with their own show. Good evening to both of you. I have to confess I'm a Californian. And when I heard this, I just went bonkers. I just went bonkers. I mean, for every mile.

This is a proposal by the new Department of Motor Vehicles woman that Arnold Schwarzenegger appointed the position. It's not an official proposal yet.

But Stephanie, what do you think of this idea?

STEPHANIE MILLER, HOST, "THE STEPHANIE MILLER SHOW": Well, you know, Carol, I understand she's a Democrat. And so that does prove the Republicans haven't cornered the market on bad ideas. Granted, they have most of them. But you know, normally, Democrats look at an idea and go, how is this fair to everyone? Republicans look at it and go how is this fair to me?

So I have a five minute commute, Carol. I don't know about you. This would be good for me. But you know, what concerns me, number one, for low income people that can't afford to live near Los Angeles, which I know a lot of them, this is going to be very, very expensive.

LIN: Right.

MILLER: Number two, I'm an environmentalist. And you know, it's going to discourage people from buying hybrids and Priuses and things like that. And anything that penalizes Hummer owners, I'm all for because those people are obnoxious.

Number three...

LIN: That might include the governor of the state.

MILLER: ...number three -- oh, you know, please, those people need to much attention, Carol. So you know, they can go -- not only did they pay $100,000 for my car, that's what it costs me in gas a week. Think how exciting that'll be.

LIN: All right, Ben, you...

MILLER: Number three, it's just creepy big brother tracking device that bothers me.

LIN: Yes.

MILLER: I think we've lost most of our civil liberties under Bush. And I'm not willing to give up the rest of mine just yet.

LIN: All right, Ben, the fact of the matter is, though, the state says it needs $100 billion in road repairs. A lot of...

BEN FERGUSON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes. And I just don't think this is reality. I mean, we've heard from the people on the left forever that we need to have people buying cars that have great fuel economy, and we need these hybrid cars, which you know, I agree with. I think it's a great idea.

But if all of a sudden now, everybody's starting to look at fuel economy because gas prices have gone up, and so now what you're telling me is is I can drive anything I want, and pay the same as the person who's trying to save fuel, it's just -- it's not fair.

LIN: So are you saying...

FERGUSON: It's not a reality.

LIN: All right. So what's the solution? I mean, they've got to get the money from somewhere. FERGUSON: Well, I mean, some people say that you should have toll booths. You know, I think that they can find money in other places. I don't think that all of a sudden by charging people per the mile they drive, I mean that's just not realistic.

Because you know this. A lot of good jobs are in areas that are expensive and hard to live in. And so, people have long commutes. And so, you're going to cut people's money down to nothing if they're having to pay all this extra cash.

I think what you really got to look at here is you've just got to look at, you know, if they want to be honest with us and just add more gasoline tax, then do it. That makes people not want to drive the big SUVs. You know, everybody will be happy that's an environmentalist about that. And then if I still want to drive something that takes a lot of gas, and I want to pay the extra cash to do it, I think as an American, I should have that choice.

LIN: Now Stephanie, are you surprised that you actually -- you two actually agree on this. Because Ben, I would think...

MILLER: You know when was the last time...

LIN: ...these tracking devices would be...

FERGUSON: Dinner.

MILLER: The last time was the apocalypse. The parallel universe is complete now.

LIN: All right. So imagine these tracking devices on our cars, because they're saying...

FERGUSON: Well...

LIN: ...that it can record the mileage. And it actually can send a signal...

MILLER: Well, great...

LIN: ...to a billing station.

MILLER: Right. I mean, Carol, Republicans always want less government. You really want a tracking device in your car that the government can track your movements? I'm just guessing...

LIN: Homeland security, Stephanie.

MILLER: ...if there's an unfortunate missile accident, it's going to be a liberal talk show host that gets taken out first. It's going to be me or Al Franken, I think. So...

LIN: Ben, you get 10 seconds.

FERGUSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). No, I really think -- I don't want a tracking device. The bottom line is let's just stick with what we've got. If you want to drive the nice, big car, and you want to pay the gas mileage, then just add on the tax to the pump.

And if you don't, then get the hybrid. And everybody's happy. And she can drive her little car. And if I have a wreck, I'll win.

LIN: You know what? They got the -- the reason why they're losing this 18 cent gas tax...

FERGUSON: I'll be nice though.

LIN: The reason why they're losing this 18 cent gas tax to begin with is it went back to the Loma Prietta and Northridge quakes, to rebuild those highways. And they just got used to the income coming in.

It's not an official proposal. We'll see what happens. Stephanie...

MILLER: Yes, some people, they don't actually use it for what they say -- they use it to get rid of massive deficits...

LIN: Ben...

MILLER: ...running...

LIN: ...Stephanie just snuck in there. I got to go.

FERGUSON: All right.

LIN: All right, thanks much.

FERGUSON: Have a good night.

LIN: In the meantime, long before live from New York became a household phrase, the popular comedy show had some rather humble beginnings, you might say. So up next, we're going to check out "Saturday Night Live," the early years.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: You know, it's hard to imagine "Saturday Night Live" -- Saturday night television, see, what did I do, without the famous line, "live from New York."

For 30 years, "Saturday Night Live" has been dishing up laughs for generations of Americans. Well tomorrow night, NBC is broadcasting a behind the scenes look at the original show and cast. Funny you should say that given the shower scene. It's called "Live from New York: The First Five Years of Saturday Night Live."

And earlier, I talked with the producer, Ken Bowser.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHEVY CHASE, ACTOR: Live from New York, it's Saturday Night!

LIN: In talking about the first five years of "Saturday Night Live," I mean, it's been such an historic phenomenon. And yet, really, it was almost accidental that this program made air.

KEN BOWSER, PRODUCER, "LIVE FROM NEW YORK": Yes, it totally was. It came about because Johnny Carson didn't want his repeats run on Saturday anymore.

That really set the whole thing in motion. That and the president of the network, Herb Schlosser, wanting to get some live shows back into 30 Rockefeller Center, because most everything had gone west.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Repeat after me. I would like...

JOHN BELUSHI, ACTOR: I would like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...to feed your finger tips.

BELUSHI: ...to feed your finger tips...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...to the wolverines.

BELUSHI: ...to the wolverines.

LIN: And there was nothing really like it on the air. This kind of ensemble taking on just about anybody and any subject. There were no sacred cows.

BOWSER: Very much there were no sacred cows. The other thing that people don't realize is there -- the youthful voice was not heard at all on television. It had been done in movies. It had been done in the music industry, but television was still basically run by shall we say older people. And this was the first time young people produced the show, acted in the show, wrote the show.

DAN AYKROYD, ACTOR: OK.

LIN: We talked to several of the main characters, as well as the producers. And what really came out of it was just how quickly so many of these stars rose to fame.

CHASE: What do you mean you're late? How late? Two weeks late, that could be a motion. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of it, OK? OK, good bye, Barbara. Margaret, sorry.

Good evening, I'm Chevy Chase. And you're not.

LIN: Chevy Chase was only with "Saturday Night Live" for a single year. And yet, it was only a few episodes before he became a household name. * BOWSER: Yes, again, it was -- I can only speak for myself. But I was sitting at home when I was a young man watching this show. And for all of us, it was so stunning to hear our own voice kind of being reflected back at us. And Chevy definitely did that.

LIN: Bill Murray had some pretty big shoes to fill, didn't he? BOWSER: He did very much. Bill Murray actually auditioned. He was going to be part of the original cast. And they decided to do seven instead of eight. And so, he got cut, but they didn't forget him. And when Chevy decided to leave, Bill was first on the list.

BILL MURRAY, ACTOR: Dean, you're going to fry, OK? You're going to die, all right. Will you let us see what that feels like? What happens when you think about that, OK? Just show the people, OK? You're going to die, OK?

All right, props, Willy. Hey, animal, come here, baby. All right, all right, I want to see the governor's phone in this shot, OK? Will you get it in here even if you have to cheat?

(SINGING)

LIN: What was the most surprising development out of this ensemble, either personally or professionally to you? What surprised you in your research?

BOWSER: A couple of things. I think that the relationships that went on between people romantic and otherwise. I think why Chevy left. A lot of people think he just left because he was getting a lot of movie offers. And I'm sure that entered into it, but there were some other things going on.

LIN: Like?

BOWSER: Well, I think he was very much in love, as he tells this story. And there's a woman who lived on the west coast. And he wanted to be with her. And she wouldn't come east. So he decided to walk away.

I think also, as Loren talks about this in this show, there was a danger that the show was going to morph into the "Chevy Chase Show." And was it going to stay "SNL" or was it going to become the "Chevy Chase Show?"

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: That was fascinating. I mean, just so many things that I just remembered after doing that interview. What a wonderful show.

Anyway, special on NBC tomorrow night. And then you can watch us. That's all the time we have this evening. But before we go, a programming note. "CNN SUNDAY NIGHT" moves to a new time slot, 11:00 p.m. Eastern. So please, join us one hour later for the very latest on CNN. We are going to leave you tonight with your responses to our last call question.

What, if anything, should homeland security be doing about people buying high powered rifles online? Here's what you had to say. Have a great night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CALLER: Must first reinstate and actively enforce the ban assault weapons.

CALLER: Yes, I don't think it's any of homeland security business to interfere with the Second Amendment rights of law abiding citizens. And I think that CNN should have brought up the fact that no .50 caliber BMG weapon has ever been confiscated for illegal use in a crime.

CALLER: Whether it's a high powered hunting rifle or a .50 caliber rifle featured in the feature, it doesn't make any difference.

CALLER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the Internet purchase these high power firearms. And whether they're terrorists or bad people, wanting to show their authority that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) authority regardless, they shouldn't show this over the TV, because people get wild ideas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired February 19, 2005 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR: This is CNN SATURDAY NIGHT. Military trainers suspended tonight after a young recruit dies. There are fresh developments tonight. And it seems it's only raining in southern California. You will see the dramatic rescues.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHEVY CHASE, ACTOR: Live from New York, it's "Saturday Night."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: It was a phenomenon. My guest tonight talks about the laughter and the tears and the first five groundbreaking years of "Saturday Night Live."

These stories and a lot more next on CNN SATURDAY NIGHT.

Good evening, I'm Carol Lin from the CNN Center. Straight ahead this hour, a CNN investigation. Buying a high powered rifle on the Internet. Is it really as simple as online shopping?

Also, the Michael Jackson case, how long will it take to pick a jury? And who will the witnesses be? We have got a list you've got to see.

And what if your state taxed you by the mile for your commute? Could a new California proposal be a model for other states, too?

But up first tonight, first, there was the videotape. Tonight, CNN has learned that five Marines are suspended after this recruit dies in boot camp. He's highlighted in just a moment. He died one day after a confrontation with a drill instructor at Parris Island.

Jason Bellini's been working the story all evening. And he's got some late breaking developments -- Jason?

JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Carol. I spoke just a short while ago with a spokesperson at Parris Island. He told me a total of five Marines are now suspected of wrongdoing related to Marine recruit Jason Tharp. Before today, only Tharp's drill instructor had been suspended. That was before the airing of this video.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The video shows Marine recruit Jason Tharp standing next to the pool, as he's grabbed by his boot camp drill instructor. Tharp walks out of frame. When he returns, his drill instructor strikes him.

Colombia, South Carolina affiliate WIS shot the video of Tharp from a distance, so there's no sound. WIS found out later the Marine the camera had focused on died the very next day.

A Marine official at Parris Island says he died as a result of complications in the water during combat water survival training.

JOHNNY THARP, JASON THARP'S FATHER: He's just the kindest, gentlest person I ever knew.

BELLINI: WIS showed its video to Tharp's parents, who live in West Virginia.

THARP: I don't know how they could treat my son the way we saw on that video. He never hurt nobody. He'd do anything if anybody asked him. It's just not right.

BELLINI: Marine officials at the Pentagon say the actions by the drill instructors seen in the video appear to violate regulations for dealing with recruits.

EUGENE FIDELL, NATL. INST. OF MILITARY JUSTICE: Basically, you're not supposed to lay your hands on a recruit. You don't really want to have drill instructors grabbing a recruit by the collar, which is what happened here. And also, you don't want them sort of basically hitting people with their elbows.

BELLINI: During his five weeks at Parris Island, Tharp told his family that he wanted out of the Marines.

THARP: We just wanted to give -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but bring him home.

BELLINI: In his last letter, postmarked February 2nd, Tharp wrote he was starting swim qualifications the next day. Tharp died February 8th.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did Jason know how to swim?

THARP: Not pretty good. But they assured us, the recruiters said nothing would happen. They have enough people in the pool where nothing would happen to him.

BELLINI: The Tharps don't know if the physical contact the drill instructor had with their son related in any way to his death.

THARP: WE can't understand why. And my little girl, all she knows is her big brother's in heaven.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BELLINI: Three separate agencies are now investigating the situation that you saw on the videotape. They're also looking into the death of Jason Tharp -- Carol?

LIN: Jason, earlier we knew about the drill instructor's suspension. How did they identify the four others who have been suspended since?

BELLINI: The Marine spokesperson I spoke with told me that they looked at the video themselves. They saw who was in the video. And they found those individuals. And they decided to suspend them on the possibility that they were involved in wrongdoing by not reporting what they saw happening in that situation.

LIN: All right. About a month of investigation is what I understand?

BELLINI: At least a month.

LIN: All right, hopefully they'll get some answers, especially for the family. Thank you.

In the meantime, turning our attention to the new Iraq now, where today was a special day. It was a holy day, but as we have grown too accustomed to hearing, it was also a violent and deadly one.

One American soldier is dead, along with about two dozen Iraqis after five separate suicide bombings. CNN's senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in Baghdad tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Ashura, commemorating an ancient battle, always was going to be a bloody day. Tens of thousands of Shiites converging on shrines in Baghdad in the holy city of Karbala, the most devout cutting their heads and whipping themselves en route, dismissive of Sunni insurgents who killed dozens of worshipers on Friday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I heard about the explosions and they are un-Islamic. Whoever hurt the Muslims is not one of them.

ROBERTSON: But despise tight security in Baghdad, attackers did get through on this the holiest day of remembrance. One U.S. soldier killed and another wounded when a suicide bomber detonated explosives on a bus, killing as many as four Iraqis and wounding at least 22 others. At least six other suicide bombers targeted worshipers on the Baghdad streets, killing more than six and wounded at least 40. And in the southwest of the city, a suicide bomber on a bicycle killed three funeral goers and wounded 38.

Far removed from the violence, inside the super secure Green Zone, Senators Clinton, Collins, McCain, Graham and Feingold were beginning a fact finding tour. SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: The one thing that I've learned from this trip, that we're a long way away from being able to leave, that if the Iraqi people want us to stay, we're going to be here for a while in large numbers.

ROBERTSON: Meetings with Iraqis, including 92 newly empowered Shias, apparently positive.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: The impression that I take away from just this short visit, after talking with not only the government officials, but some of our military and civilian leaders here in Iraq, is cautious optimism.

ROBERTSON: If an image capturing optimism were needed then this was probably it, pictures on Iraqi television from the holy city of Karbala showing Shias peacefully enjoying Ashura.

(on camera): Despite the attacks, Ashura, this year, has been far less bloody than a year ago. Notably, most of the attacks in Baghdad, the insurgents either unwilling or incapable of penetrating the security around the holy city of Karbala as they did last year with such violent effect.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: We're also following developments at the National Prison in Haiti. This is what we know right now. Armed men stormed the prison today, broke inside and freed a very high profile inmate, the country's former prime minister.

We have learned that Yvonne Neptune is now back in custody and that several people, including one or more prison guards were killed. We are trying to find out more from Port Au Prince.

Now we had to move through several of those top stories because so much happened tonight. But we want to move briefly back to our top story, the death of Marine recruit Jason Tharp.

Tharp's family demanded an investigation. And they finally got it, especially after they saw what happened on that videotape. They want to know if the way he was treated contributed in any way to his death.

Well, earlier, I spoke at length with Eugene Fidell, a former JAG or judge advocate general, who has prosecuted and defended Coast Guard cases.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Eugene, you've actually seen the videotape. From what you have seen, what do you think happened?

EUGENE FIDELL, MILITARY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, it was clear that the instructional staff at Parris Island were pretty frustrated with this particular recruit.

Unfortunately, the way they displayed their frustration, I think, was not in keeping, shall we say, with the highest tradition of the Marine Corps.

LIN: Well, the sergeant has been suspended. There is an investigation going on. Do you think that what you saw on this videotape, this interaction between the two, do you think that a crime was committed?

FIDELL: Well, I don't want to convict anybody on television, but I must say I think some prosecutor in the Marine Corps is probably going to be working over the weekend with his copy or her copy of the manual for courts martial and try to sort out whether this is an assault, whether it's two assaults, or whether it's...

LIN: Well, what's the standard? What's the standard? I mean, I as a civilian saw a commanding officer have physical contact with that Marine.

FIDELL: Right. There are certain kinds of let's say unconsented touchings that are probably permissible in the military. For example, if you saw a recruit whose uniform wasn't squared away, or say his name tag or some decoration wasn't squared away, I could imagine going over and either saying, "look, Marine get your uniform squared away" or you might adjust the decoration or the name tag manually, although I think that's pretty far from what was on this tape.

LIN: Shoving. Lightly punching. I mean, would that fall into an acceptable standard, do you think?

FIDELL: Not in my opinion, no.

LIN: Given that, it's not unheard of that recruits die during training?

FIDELL: No. Tragically, it does happen from time to time. And indeed, only a few years ago, there was a fatality at a Navy pool in Florida. Interestingly in the past, there were training deaths at Parris Island in the '50s, for example, that led to a very, very celebrated court martial in the case of Sergeant McCune, a case that later became the subject of a book and I think possibly a movie.

So unfortunately, this does happen from time to time. And I think all the services have got to be very alert. And I think they are very alert to the need to crack down on...

LIN: All right.

FIDELL: ...you know, dangerous situations.

LIN: Eugene Fidell, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Again, the latest development tonight is that now a total of five Marines have been suspended, pending an investigation that is likely to take at least a month. We're going to stay on top of this story.

In the meantime, in the United States right here, our investigative team is about to show you how easy it is to get a weapon that can slice through a cockpit door. It is just an Internet site away. And it's a story you'll only see on CNN.

Also, Michael Jackson is out of the hospital and headed back to court.

And coming up later, TV history in the making, a look back at the start of "Saturday Night Live."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: What we are about to show you may surprise you. CNN bought a gun, a really big gun, made for war. The surprising part is how we got our hands on it.

Now we did it legally and we did it easily. In this report, you'll only see right here on CNN, investigative correspondent Drew Griffin went online shopping. And wait until you see what he brought home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: To buy a gun, even a .50 caliber gun, this huge gun, you just need to go to your computer and click on one of the biggest classified gun sites, which in our case is gunsamerica.com. AK-47s, shotguns, pistols, all kinds of rifles.

But what we wanted to buy was the biggest caliber rifle you could possibly buy. And that's this category right here, .50 caliber rifles.

This is the gun that is now banned in California. And on this Web site, we have about three dozen of them for sale. But what we're looking for is one that is not being sold by a dealer. See where it says "federal licensed firearm dealer?" We are trying to find one that's being sold by just a private citizen.

This is actually the one we bought. When you finally find the gun you want on this Web site, and you're dealing with a private party, you just give him your e-mail. And you send him a note "let's set up a meeting, I'm paying cash." And the next thing you know, we're going to buy our gun.

(voice-over): But before I shelled out $2500 to buy this gun, I wanted to make sure I could buy ammunition. That turned out to be as easy as ordering flowers. With just a couple of clicks on my computer, I ordered and paid by credit card for .50 caliber armor piercing rounds.

They were delivered in a week. Shells as long as my hand delivered, no questions asked, by UPS. I could have even bought tracer rounds if I'd wanted. Now it was time to get the gun.

(on camera): What we're about to do is perfectly legal in dozens of states where cash and carry is the rule. A private seller, a private buyer. There will be no background check, no government waiting period, no government paperwork at all. In fact, the only paper that will change hands is the money we use to buy our .50 caliber rifle.

(voice-over): The transaction at a house in suburban Houston took about 20 minutes. We walked out with a case holding the gun critics say is the perfect terrorist weapon, a brand new .50 caliber with scope bipod and directions.

We flew home. Guns are checked as baggage. And when the bags arrived for our flight, I simply picked it up and left.

Ronnie Barrett, who manufactures .50 caliber rifles, believes as an American, it is your right to own one.

Isn't that particular gun in the hands of a terrorist dangerous?

RONNIE BARRETT, BARRETT MANUFACTURING: We're not talking about terrorists. We're disarming here civilians. These laws have nothing to do with terrorism.

GRIFFIN: Barrett's company makes one of the most popular and top of the line .50 caliber rifles on the market, a semi automatic favored by armies around the world, but Barrett says his company couldn't survive on military orders alone. And what keeps all these workers busy is its popularity among recreational shooters.

Barrett says it may be effective on the battlefield, but on the target range, it's just plain fun.

Should there be any regulations on your guns?

BARRETT: There should be regulations on criminals.

GRIFFIN: Gun control advocates want a federal ban on this weapon. Their reasoning? Anything that can hit a target at 1,000 yards with a bullet the size of a small artillery shell could certainly pose a major threat to aircraft.

(on camera): But the question at most of the nation's airports is not what you could do with a .50 caliber gun at 1,000 yards. Here at LAX, a would-be terrorist could get within less than 1,000 feet.

(voice-over): This week at a police gun range, I found out what this gun could do to the emergency exit door of a Boeing 727 fired from 1,000 feet away. The gun is very heavy, not easy to maneuver, but took only a few moments to set up. The first time I fired it, I missed after adjusting for the site. Round after armored piercing round went straight through the door.

But just about any gun could pierce the think aluminum skin of an airplane. What scares law enforcement is what else this round can do when fired from this gun. This is a one inch thick piece of steel plate, more protection than almost any armored car. The .50 caliber goes right through the aircraft door and right through one inch steel.

Wow, right through.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right through it, baby.

GRIFFIN: That's where it came out. That's where it went it. One inch steel plate. Just unbelievable.

(on camera): Had we purchased this gun from a federal firearms dealer, it would have required a background check, some paperwork, and proof of residency and age. But because this was a private sale between a buyer and a seller from the same state, this transaction was simply cash and carry. No record of this gun whatsoever.

Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security. And please join us tomorrow night because Drew Griffin again has more on the practice of outsourcing airline maintenance. Just who is keeping those planes airworthy? That is tomorrow night, right here on CNN.

And that leads me to our last call question. What, if anything, should the homeland security department be doing about this? Give us a call at 1-800-807-2620.

Coming up, putting aside their differences and offering hope. Just ahead, former Presidents Bush and Clinton touch down in Thailand. But first, their stops in the tsunami region.

And police finally track down a rape suspect wanted for a string of violent attacks on women, young and old after he was released from prison.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Here's what's happening around the nation right now. Today, the U.S. and Japan called on North Korea to return to six party talks aimed at ending its nuclear program. The joint declaration came after Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld held talks in Washington with their Japanese counterparts.

Investigators in Dallas are trying to determine the cause of this massive blaze. The fire broke out this morning in a seven story apartment building under renovation near Love Field in northwest Dallas. More than 100 firefighters responded. No injuries are being reported.

And the hockey season is still canceled at least for now. The NHL says 6.5 hours of hastily arranged talks today produced no progress. Hockey great Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux took part in today's discussions. The NHL canceled the season Wednesday after failing to reach agreement with players on a salary cap.

Now in Denver tonight, Denver police believe they finally have their man, a convicted sex offender and suspected serial rapist. The ex con is suspected of committing a string of violent sexual assaults that spread fear throughout the city.

CNN's Denise Belgrave has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DENISE BELGRAVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Denver police, this week's massive manhunt and arrest of a serial rapist was personal.

DAVE FISHER, DENVER POLICE: I can't remember a case in which there's been more sweat and tears and just great concern. I talked last night to these men and women who have put so much into this. This is our community. And it means so much to have this moment and this success.

BELGRAVE: Over 200 law enforcement officials mobilized around the clock to track down Brent J. Friends. The 35-year old convicted child sex offender is suspected of raping two women and two 11-year old sisters and their 67-year old grandmother.

Police say Brent's crime spree started eight days ago and ended on Friday night, when he attacked his last victim. Brent stole her car and cellphone, a mistake that would ultimately help lead to his capture.

GERRY WHITMAN, CHIEF, DENVER POLICE: As soon as we determined there was a cell phone and the number went up on Nat (ph), and started tracking it. When I talked to the sergeant up in Glenwood Springs who was involved in this, it was their police department, they took the information that the detectives provided them, set up on the highway, and basically waited for the suspect vehicle to drive through.

BELGRAVE: Brent's arrest comes amid criticism of the nearby Aurora, Colorado police department. On November 23rd, Brents was interviewed about allegations that he molested an eight-year old boy. But it wasn't until two months later that Aurora officials issued a warrant for Brent's arrest. Aurora police chief Ricky Bennett defended his unit's actions.

RICKY BENNETT, CHIEF, AURORA POLICE: All I can tell you is that statements were made from the individual we believe committed the crime, but I don't know that it's a confession. Statements were made.

BELGRAVE: Back in Denver, residents held a vigil to let the victims know their community supports them.

Denise Belgrave, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: A different kind of controversy starting out West, but it could affect you soon. We're talking about going the extra mile and that it could actually cost you every mile you drive. Straight ahead, details on a proposed tax hike that will have many commuters crying foul.

Also, wild weather out West forcing many families from their homes. We've got the latest and the amazing pictures straight ahead.

And don't forget our last call question. What, if anything, should the homeland security department be doing about people buying high powered rifles online? Give us a call at 1-800-807-2620.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Shiite faithful across the Arab world observing their holy day called Ashura today. And some of the rituals to outsiders can appear very shocking indeed. For example, a common practice during the holiday to ritually whip, beat, or cut oneself, often until bloody to recall the suffering of a seventh century cleric.

In Iraq, Shiite worshipers marched to holy sites in Baghdad and Karbala. Observing Ashura was forbidden during Saddam Hussein's presidency.

And President Bush heads to Europe tomorrow for five days of meetings and fence mending. In his radio address today, Mr. Bush said he will stress the common values shared by the U.S. and Europe.

The U.S.S. Jimmy Carter was commissioned today in Connecticut. The $3.2 billion submarine is the most heavily armed submarine ever built. It's also the first to be named after a living ex-president who took part in today's commissioning.

And now, Mother Nature's destructive might. Nearly two months since the Indian Ocean coastline was pummeled by tsunami waves. The two men leading America's relief project are right in the middle of the devastation zone. Two very influential men, even in their post White House years.

George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton. They left for Indonesia after touring Thai villages obliterated by December's disaster. Thailand was the first of many places the former presidents will tour on this trip. More on their mission in just a moment.

But first, washing away on the West Coast. Southern Californians have endured triple the average rainfall this season. Two inches in the past two days and no break in the forecast. Flooded roads, power knocked out, and nervous hillside residents are watching out for those mudslides.

Now south of Los Angeles in Long Beach, the Red Cross spun into action, opening emergency shelters for those forced from their homes by floodwaters. The speed and the relentlessness of the storms are surprising even born and bred Southern Californians have not seen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need a rescue on the southbound side.

LIN (voice-over): A welcome sound, the voice of rescuers, just in time to save a woman trapped in quickly rising water in Long Beach. The woman's cell phone, the saving grace. She called 911.

JIM ARVIZU, CAPT., LONG BEACH FIRE DEPT.: Water rescue team paddled out, were able to get into the car, get the seat belt.

LIN: Rescuers using a surf board took the woman to higher, drier ground. Cars overtaken by the water remained in working condition, but with nowhere to go.

The story is the same up and down the state. The rain keeps coming. Residents in Santa Clarita were forced out of this mobile home park, as rivers of water rushed through.

In Los Angeles, homeowners started sandbagging, taking no chances with flooding. Crews in Burbank struggled to secure the Virgin megastore. The excessive downpours were blamed for collapsing the roof there, causing $100,000 in damage.

For Golden State residents, enough is enough.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I like rain, but too much is too much.

LIN: Add with California receiving three times the normal rainfall, the fear now is further mudslides.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: All right, but still, a blessing in disguise compared to what happened in South Asia with those massive tsunamis, killing more than 200,000 people.

And now, former Presidents Bush and Clinton have arrived in Indonesia and are headed for the tsunami hammered Aceh province. They spent Saturday in Thailand, as we just reported, seeing for themselves the size and the scope of the relief work that still lies ahead.

Aneesh Raman is in Phuket, Thailand right now, a city and a region still dealing with the very sharp reminders of what happened December 26.

Aneesh, what is this presidential visit mean to the people who are still trying to rebuild their lives there?

ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It means more than anyone can imagine, Carol, for the people on the ground. It is a continued spotlight on their plight that could be years, if not decades in the making.

The former presidents now en route to Banda Aceh. There, they will likely see some of the more severe sights of destruction. But here in Thailand, it was about empathy and inspiration.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ANEESH RAMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Kicking off a three-day tour through the region, former Presidents Clinton and Bush arrived in Phuket to witness firsthand the lingering aftermath of December tsunami. In the village of Bannamkam (ph), school children presented the two with drawings of the waves crashing down, waves that killed their parents.

GEORGE H.W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE United States: The one that gave me hers had lost her mother and all of this puts a very human face on this tragedy.

RAMAN: But amidst the emotions, an inspirational site, the village which lost close to half of its residents is being reborn. The former presidents also laid a wreath at the Wall of Remembrance, all day, reminding people that despite their at times contentious political history, this was a nonpartisan, human mission.

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But on issues about which there could be no debate. That little girl that gave him the picture, you know, of her mother drowning, that's not something to politically debate.

RAMAN: Days after the tsunami hit, the current president called on Clinton and Bush Senior to lead a fund-raising effort in the United States. But now almost two months since the disaster, this visit is meant to combat donor fatigue, reminding Americans the giving cannot stop and showing leaders in the region America remains ready to help.

CLINTON: What we have to do now is not to forget these people in places when all of the cameras are not there. I think that's the most important message I could say to the American people.

RAMAN: From Phuket, the former presidents will travel onward to Indonesia and Sri Lank on Sunday before a final stop on Monday in the Maldives.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAMAN: And Carol, the simple truth is that the reconstruction here will have no definable end. It is simply a new reality. And the success of that reality is highly contingent upon the world never forgetting the events of December last year, Carol.

LIN: That is the biggest fear right now. Thank you very much, Aneesh Raman, reporting live by videophone from Phuket. We'll be following this story very carefully as you know.

In the meantime, we've got much more straight ahead on CNN, including the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. You will see some of the names and faces on the witness list. Can we say Ed Bradley from "60 MINUTES," Elizabeth Taylor, Jay Leno.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: In the Michael Jackson trial, jury selection resumes Tuesday after delays for Michael Jackson's brief hospitalization with the flu. And of course, it's the president's day -- holiday this weekend.

Steve Chawkins is covering the case for "The Los Angeles Times." And he joins me now for the latest on that.

Steve, is the defendant out of the hospital?

STEVE CHAWKINS, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Yes, Carol. He left the hospital yesterday. And you know, left under his own steam. And whether this will have an impact on jurors is yet to be seen.

LIN: Right, because personally, I've never known anybody to be hospitalized with the flu. I know it happens with elderly people, but I'm just curious what kind of an impact it might have in the courtroom, given that I mean he is superstar. I'm just wondering how the juror -- prospective jurors even react when he's in the room?

CHAWKINS: Well, you know, well when he's in the room, they kind of -- they don't want to be too obvious about staring. But you do see some craning of necks this way and that. And in fact, he wears clothing that is typical of Michael Jackson with kings of medallions and multi colored vests and shiny materials. So there is something to stare at.

As far as whether they'll resent or hold against him his illness, I don't know. If it were anyone else, I'd say no.

LIN: Right.

CHAWKINS: But with this being Michael Jackson, and with this having happened before, too, in other court cases, there have been delays because Michael Jackson has been taken ill. And one of those delays happened in this very courthouse in Santa Maria.

So I think maybe they'll give him a pass the first time, but...

LIN: Maybe.

CHAWKINS: ...if he does it again, it might be trouble.

LIN: Then again, they might feel sorry for him. I mean, who knows? He's under a lot of stress. His fans are sticking up for him. But in the meantime, it is a delay. All right? And when you take a look at some of the names that have been floated out there as prospective witnesses in this trial, I mean, it's an all star line-up.

Steve, we're putting up some pictures here. Ed Bradley from "60 MINUTES," Kobe Bryant, of all people, our own Larry King, Jay Leno, Elizabeth Taylor.

I mean, first of all, it's one thing to possibly call these people to testify. It's another thing to schedule these people. Can you imagine what a nightmare that could be?

CHAWKINS: Well, Carol, there were gasps in the courtroom when those names were read. In fact, I think, Ed Bradley was the first one on the list. And some eyebrows went up, as if well, I wonder if that's Ed Bradley of "60 MINUTES."

And then, when the list was finally read, a list of some 400 names on the defense side, people were boggled. They had everyone but Marilyn Monroe on that list.

LIN: All right.

CHAWKINS: And whether they're all called is another question, too.

LIN: Right.

CHAWKINS: You can certainly be on a defense list and not be called. The prosecution is claiming that the defense is just trying to dazzle the jurors with all the star power.

LIN: Well, you know, I can imagine the line coming out of the trial at that point is, you know, call my agent. Maybe we can do lunch.

CHAWKINS: Exactly.

LIN: But testifying might be a different matter. Steve, I wish we had more time. Thanks so much. And we're going to stay posted with you on this trial.

CHAWKINS: Thank you, Carol.

LIN: In the meantime, a pricey proposal for California drivers. Up next, the controversial tax idea that could levy charges for every mile folks drive to work.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Of the many talkers out there, this one we thought is fueling some controversy. Out there in the grand state of California, they are talking about taxing motorists for every mile they drive by placing tracking devices on their cars.

So let's see what our guests think about this. Radio host Stephanie Miller and Ben Ferguson, each with their own show. Good evening to both of you. I have to confess I'm a Californian. And when I heard this, I just went bonkers. I just went bonkers. I mean, for every mile.

This is a proposal by the new Department of Motor Vehicles woman that Arnold Schwarzenegger appointed the position. It's not an official proposal yet.

But Stephanie, what do you think of this idea?

STEPHANIE MILLER, HOST, "THE STEPHANIE MILLER SHOW": Well, you know, Carol, I understand she's a Democrat. And so that does prove the Republicans haven't cornered the market on bad ideas. Granted, they have most of them. But you know, normally, Democrats look at an idea and go, how is this fair to everyone? Republicans look at it and go how is this fair to me?

So I have a five minute commute, Carol. I don't know about you. This would be good for me. But you know, what concerns me, number one, for low income people that can't afford to live near Los Angeles, which I know a lot of them, this is going to be very, very expensive.

LIN: Right.

MILLER: Number two, I'm an environmentalist. And you know, it's going to discourage people from buying hybrids and Priuses and things like that. And anything that penalizes Hummer owners, I'm all for because those people are obnoxious.

Number three...

LIN: That might include the governor of the state.

MILLER: ...number three -- oh, you know, please, those people need to much attention, Carol. So you know, they can go -- not only did they pay $100,000 for my car, that's what it costs me in gas a week. Think how exciting that'll be.

LIN: All right, Ben, you...

MILLER: Number three, it's just creepy big brother tracking device that bothers me.

LIN: Yes.

MILLER: I think we've lost most of our civil liberties under Bush. And I'm not willing to give up the rest of mine just yet.

LIN: All right, Ben, the fact of the matter is, though, the state says it needs $100 billion in road repairs. A lot of...

BEN FERGUSON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes. And I just don't think this is reality. I mean, we've heard from the people on the left forever that we need to have people buying cars that have great fuel economy, and we need these hybrid cars, which you know, I agree with. I think it's a great idea.

But if all of a sudden now, everybody's starting to look at fuel economy because gas prices have gone up, and so now what you're telling me is is I can drive anything I want, and pay the same as the person who's trying to save fuel, it's just -- it's not fair.

LIN: So are you saying...

FERGUSON: It's not a reality.

LIN: All right. So what's the solution? I mean, they've got to get the money from somewhere. FERGUSON: Well, I mean, some people say that you should have toll booths. You know, I think that they can find money in other places. I don't think that all of a sudden by charging people per the mile they drive, I mean that's just not realistic.

Because you know this. A lot of good jobs are in areas that are expensive and hard to live in. And so, people have long commutes. And so, you're going to cut people's money down to nothing if they're having to pay all this extra cash.

I think what you really got to look at here is you've just got to look at, you know, if they want to be honest with us and just add more gasoline tax, then do it. That makes people not want to drive the big SUVs. You know, everybody will be happy that's an environmentalist about that. And then if I still want to drive something that takes a lot of gas, and I want to pay the extra cash to do it, I think as an American, I should have that choice.

LIN: Now Stephanie, are you surprised that you actually -- you two actually agree on this. Because Ben, I would think...

MILLER: You know when was the last time...

LIN: ...these tracking devices would be...

FERGUSON: Dinner.

MILLER: The last time was the apocalypse. The parallel universe is complete now.

LIN: All right. So imagine these tracking devices on our cars, because they're saying...

FERGUSON: Well...

LIN: ...that it can record the mileage. And it actually can send a signal...

MILLER: Well, great...

LIN: ...to a billing station.

MILLER: Right. I mean, Carol, Republicans always want less government. You really want a tracking device in your car that the government can track your movements? I'm just guessing...

LIN: Homeland security, Stephanie.

MILLER: ...if there's an unfortunate missile accident, it's going to be a liberal talk show host that gets taken out first. It's going to be me or Al Franken, I think. So...

LIN: Ben, you get 10 seconds.

FERGUSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). No, I really think -- I don't want a tracking device. The bottom line is let's just stick with what we've got. If you want to drive the nice, big car, and you want to pay the gas mileage, then just add on the tax to the pump.

And if you don't, then get the hybrid. And everybody's happy. And she can drive her little car. And if I have a wreck, I'll win.

LIN: You know what? They got the -- the reason why they're losing this 18 cent gas tax...

FERGUSON: I'll be nice though.

LIN: The reason why they're losing this 18 cent gas tax to begin with is it went back to the Loma Prietta and Northridge quakes, to rebuild those highways. And they just got used to the income coming in.

It's not an official proposal. We'll see what happens. Stephanie...

MILLER: Yes, some people, they don't actually use it for what they say -- they use it to get rid of massive deficits...

LIN: Ben...

MILLER: ...running...

LIN: ...Stephanie just snuck in there. I got to go.

FERGUSON: All right.

LIN: All right, thanks much.

FERGUSON: Have a good night.

LIN: In the meantime, long before live from New York became a household phrase, the popular comedy show had some rather humble beginnings, you might say. So up next, we're going to check out "Saturday Night Live," the early years.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: You know, it's hard to imagine "Saturday Night Live" -- Saturday night television, see, what did I do, without the famous line, "live from New York."

For 30 years, "Saturday Night Live" has been dishing up laughs for generations of Americans. Well tomorrow night, NBC is broadcasting a behind the scenes look at the original show and cast. Funny you should say that given the shower scene. It's called "Live from New York: The First Five Years of Saturday Night Live."

And earlier, I talked with the producer, Ken Bowser.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHEVY CHASE, ACTOR: Live from New York, it's Saturday Night!

LIN: In talking about the first five years of "Saturday Night Live," I mean, it's been such an historic phenomenon. And yet, really, it was almost accidental that this program made air.

KEN BOWSER, PRODUCER, "LIVE FROM NEW YORK": Yes, it totally was. It came about because Johnny Carson didn't want his repeats run on Saturday anymore.

That really set the whole thing in motion. That and the president of the network, Herb Schlosser, wanting to get some live shows back into 30 Rockefeller Center, because most everything had gone west.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Repeat after me. I would like...

JOHN BELUSHI, ACTOR: I would like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...to feed your finger tips.

BELUSHI: ...to feed your finger tips...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...to the wolverines.

BELUSHI: ...to the wolverines.

LIN: And there was nothing really like it on the air. This kind of ensemble taking on just about anybody and any subject. There were no sacred cows.

BOWSER: Very much there were no sacred cows. The other thing that people don't realize is there -- the youthful voice was not heard at all on television. It had been done in movies. It had been done in the music industry, but television was still basically run by shall we say older people. And this was the first time young people produced the show, acted in the show, wrote the show.

DAN AYKROYD, ACTOR: OK.

LIN: We talked to several of the main characters, as well as the producers. And what really came out of it was just how quickly so many of these stars rose to fame.

CHASE: What do you mean you're late? How late? Two weeks late, that could be a motion. Don't worry about it. I'll take care of it, OK? OK, good bye, Barbara. Margaret, sorry.

Good evening, I'm Chevy Chase. And you're not.

LIN: Chevy Chase was only with "Saturday Night Live" for a single year. And yet, it was only a few episodes before he became a household name. * BOWSER: Yes, again, it was -- I can only speak for myself. But I was sitting at home when I was a young man watching this show. And for all of us, it was so stunning to hear our own voice kind of being reflected back at us. And Chevy definitely did that.

LIN: Bill Murray had some pretty big shoes to fill, didn't he? BOWSER: He did very much. Bill Murray actually auditioned. He was going to be part of the original cast. And they decided to do seven instead of eight. And so, he got cut, but they didn't forget him. And when Chevy decided to leave, Bill was first on the list.

BILL MURRAY, ACTOR: Dean, you're going to fry, OK? You're going to die, all right. Will you let us see what that feels like? What happens when you think about that, OK? Just show the people, OK? You're going to die, OK?

All right, props, Willy. Hey, animal, come here, baby. All right, all right, I want to see the governor's phone in this shot, OK? Will you get it in here even if you have to cheat?

(SINGING)

LIN: What was the most surprising development out of this ensemble, either personally or professionally to you? What surprised you in your research?

BOWSER: A couple of things. I think that the relationships that went on between people romantic and otherwise. I think why Chevy left. A lot of people think he just left because he was getting a lot of movie offers. And I'm sure that entered into it, but there were some other things going on.

LIN: Like?

BOWSER: Well, I think he was very much in love, as he tells this story. And there's a woman who lived on the west coast. And he wanted to be with her. And she wouldn't come east. So he decided to walk away.

I think also, as Loren talks about this in this show, there was a danger that the show was going to morph into the "Chevy Chase Show." And was it going to stay "SNL" or was it going to become the "Chevy Chase Show?"

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: That was fascinating. I mean, just so many things that I just remembered after doing that interview. What a wonderful show.

Anyway, special on NBC tomorrow night. And then you can watch us. That's all the time we have this evening. But before we go, a programming note. "CNN SUNDAY NIGHT" moves to a new time slot, 11:00 p.m. Eastern. So please, join us one hour later for the very latest on CNN. We are going to leave you tonight with your responses to our last call question.

What, if anything, should homeland security be doing about people buying high powered rifles online? Here's what you had to say. Have a great night.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CALLER: Must first reinstate and actively enforce the ban assault weapons.

CALLER: Yes, I don't think it's any of homeland security business to interfere with the Second Amendment rights of law abiding citizens. And I think that CNN should have brought up the fact that no .50 caliber BMG weapon has ever been confiscated for illegal use in a crime.

CALLER: Whether it's a high powered hunting rifle or a .50 caliber rifle featured in the feature, it doesn't make any difference.

CALLER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the Internet purchase these high power firearms. And whether they're terrorists or bad people, wanting to show their authority that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) authority regardless, they shouldn't show this over the TV, because people get wild ideas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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