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Nancy Grace

NANCY GRACE for February 23, 2005, CNNHN

Aired February 23, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, the jury is struck in the Michael Jackson case.
The defense rests in the murder trial against "Baretta" star Robert Blake.

And 16-year-old Sarah Johnson`s "slip of the tongue" could land her behind bars for life. The 16-year-old, of course, is on trial for the murder of her own parents.

Also tonight, facts are beginning to emerge about that 37-year-old charged with suffocating both Lisa Underwood, at seven-months pregnant, and her seven-year-old little boy, Jayden, to death. Now acquaintances are painting him as prone to drinking, addicted to sex affairs, and depressed to boot. A makeshift memorial to Lisa and Jayden continues to swell tonight with stuffed animals, notes, flowers, balloons. The rest of us on the outside looking in and wondering why.

Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

A lot going down in the courthouse today. Before we go live to Santa Maria, California, and the Michael Jackson case, as well as taking you to Idaho and the Sarah Johnson trial -- remember the 16-year-old charged with the murder of her parents.

First, to the Lisa and Jayden Underwood case. When mom-to-be Lisa and her little boy went missing, we all hoped for the best and we feared the worst. Those fears confirmed when their bodies were found in a makeshift grave.

Well, tonight, Underwood`s ex-boyfriend, Stephen Barbee, is behind bars in Fort Worth, Texas, on $2 million bond. I want to show you...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GENE JONES, FORT WORTH POLICE DEPT.: Trust me. We were personally invested in this case. We were motivated by these two individuals. This is what drove us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to show you a live shot. Our crew is there in Justin, Texas, not only where the bodies were found -- Man, this is a makeshift memorial that was put up. Can you imagine? That`s the little bagel shop that Lisa Underwood owned. It was named "Boopa." And I looked into that and found out that was her nickname for her little boy.

That first live shot we just showed you was where the bodies were found --- can you imagine that -- near a swamping area, near a motocross speedway. That`s where those two people were laid to rest, a mother and son.

Let`s go live to Dallas. Standing by is CNN`s Ed Lavandera. From San Francisco, criminal profiler and former FBI agent, Candice Delong.

First to you, Ed. Ed, thank you for being with us tonight. Ed, what can you tell me about this guy, Stephen Barbee?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Stephen Barbee -- we have been listening to the reports coming in the last 24 hours about him. His parents live in a small town north of the Fort Worth area. They haven`t spoken. The woman he was married to hasn`t spoken publicly as well.

So what we`re hearing has been reports from people who have known him over the years. And the reports have ranged from what you mentioned add the top, you know, people who are closer to him saying that they`re surprised that he`s accused of this. But we`ve heard from people who say, in the last couple of years, there has seemed to be an angrier edge to Stephen Barbee that has kind of grown in the last couple of years.

GRACE: Hey, Ed. Ed, how long was this guy married?

LAVANDERA: He had just been recently remarried in December.

GRACE: So he married somebody else while this girl was pregnant?

LAVANDERA: Yes. He was married in December of last year. He had also bee married -- I think he was divorced in 2003. His first marriage lasted seven years. And those were reports that have come out in the last day or so, as well.

GRACE: So this is the second marriage.

You know, the reason I`m asking, Candice Delong, is because you and I were talking about motive, not that there is ever a good motive for murder. Candace, I once prosecuted a murder over $10, all right? So there`s never a good motive for murder.

But in this case, you`ve got a newlywed with a pregnant girlfriend. That doesn`t look good walking down the aisle, the wife on one side, the pregnant girlfriend on the other. Motive?

CANDICE DELONG, FBI CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right. Well, one thing that always occurs to me in cases like this, which are, I`m afraid, becoming all too common is, what was of course going on in his mind? What was the motive? Why did this happen now?

I`m wondering, did the wife know that he had a pregnant former girlfriend about to deliver? I`d like to know, when did he found out she, former girlfriend, was pregnant with his child and soon to be delivering?

GRACE: Well, Candace, Candace, the woman`s seven months. I think he would probably notice.

Hey, Ed Lavandera, that`s a good question. Did the wife know? It sounds to me you`re saying this is a small town. If it`s anything like where I come from, everybody knows everything.

LAVANDERA: Well, I don`t think the people of Fort Worth would think their town`s very small. But, at that point, whether or not he knew, didn`t know, we have nothing to be able to kind of help -- you know, kind of get us through that at this point.

GRACE: What about Ron Dodd?

LAVANDERA: Well, you know, I`m glad you bring him up. Because he`s actually the one who has been getting the most of the attention today. In fact, in the last half hour, we have learned that he has actually been arrested, picked up on a parole violation, we`ve been told by Fort Worth police.

GRACE: Hey, can I tell you? Birds of a feather, Ed. Say I`m crazy, but you have got this Ron Dodd -- everybody, who Ed is telling us about is Ron Dodd.

Dusty, let`s show him this. I`ve got this arrest warrant here that outlines Ron Dodd`s alleged involvement. This is a sworn affidavit signed by police.

What part did he play that we know of right now, Ed?

LAVANDERA: Well, this is the part that is rather fascinating. He was interviewed in Tyler Monday morning. But in this affidavit that you`re showing there, it lays out, according to the police, that on Friday night going into Saturday morning that Stephen Barbee called Ron Dodd several times -- he`s a business partner -- and asked him to pick him up in the areas where the bodies were found and Lisa Underwood`s car was found.

And at one point in the affidavit it also goes on to say that when he picked him up the last time, because his car -- he says in the affidavit -- that his car had run out of gas, that when he opened up the tail gate to the car -- Barbee did -- that Dodd had seen the bodies of Lisa and Jayden in the back of the car. So the questions being answered today...

GRACE: And he didn`t think to punch 911?

LAVANDERA: And exactly. That`s what has generated all of the buzz around Ron Dodd today is that, since he knew that, according to the affidavit, would have known it Friday and Saturday morning and never called authorities.

GRACE: Candice, I just can`t believe it. Somebody opens a trunk of a car and there`s a dead pregnant lady and a dead little boy. In the affidavit it says the little boy is four feet tall. And this guy goes, "Sure, I`ll get you some gas?"

DELONG: Right. And apparently he also said, if my memory serves me correctly, he didn`t notify authorities because he didn`t want to get involved. Well now we find out he has an arrest record for himself. He`s been violated on his parole. I`ll bet there`s a real good reason he didn`t want to notify authorities. And we`re probably about to find out in the next day or so.

GRACE: Hey, what was the parole violation, Ed Lavandera?

LAVANDERA: We asked that question. They won`t say or they`re not ready to say just yet. I asked if it was in connection to this particular crime or if it was in connection to another crime. And Fort Worth police saying they`re just not ready to specify...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold, Ed.

Ed, march right back down there, because arrest and convictions are public records. They don`t have a right to withhold that. Believe you me, Ed. If I had a little shoplifting or a drug arrest in my background, nobody has to release that. That is public record.

So, Ed, before you go, where do we stand now? What happens next? Do you think Dodd is going to be charged?

LAVANDERA: Well, you know, that is what everyone has been asking today. They say, you know, here`s a guy -- at the very least, what people are asking Fort Worth police is, if this is a man who, according to this affidavit had knowledge that this had happened, at the very least, people are wondering if he`s at least guilty of the very least of not reporting this and then somehow that would be an issue.

Now, there are a lot of other people who are closer to the family. And of course, at this point, this is speculation among people...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, yes.

LAVANDERA: ... and that sort of thing. But they`re wondering if -- not a lot of people actually believe that -- I talked to yesterday out at the home that believed that Barbee acted alone. Now, that is...

GRACE: Yes.

LAVANDERA: ... very early on to say that from my standpoint. But you can understand where the questions are headed at this point. And I think it`s a strong indicated that the Fort Worth police, they have been wanting to talk to Ron Dodd all day today. And since this has happened late today, this just -- we`re finding out about this about a half an hour ago, there are strong...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You can put some money on this, Ed. You can put some money on this: They`ve got two ways to go. They can either try to charge him and leverage that to get testimony, in case that confession is suppressed, they need something else other than the defendant`s confession. Or they can secure his statement now and use him as a witness at trial.

Either way, I`m sure the police are anxious to speak to him.

Ed Lavandera is with us, CNN reporter. Also with me, and who will stay with me, Candace Delong, FBI profiler.

As we go to break, I`m not quite ready to let it go. We`re going to come back with Jackson and Sarah Johnson, but take a look at this. This is where Lisa Underwood and her little boy -- can you imagine -- seven years old, left out here in a soggy, shallow grave. Friends and family made this makeshift memorial. That`s what`s left of Lisa tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: At the evening vigil, a spokesperson for the family couldn`t finish her remarks without breaking down.

DEBBIE LINDLEY, FAMILY SPOKESWOMAN: It just really means a lot to us that you guys came out tonight to show your support for them. If we could just have a moment of silence in their honor, I`d appreciate it.

LAVANDERA: Sometimes there are no words. And on this night, the candles and the silence spoke volumes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: In the last few weeks, a large amount of ugly, malicious information has been released into the media about me. Apparently, this information was leaked through transcripts in a grand jury proceeding where neither my lawyers nor I ever appeared. The information is disgusting and false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, believe it or not, another miracle. It took just under seven court days for the Michael Jackson jury to be struck and seated. It all went down today. That`s right. They are in the box, the jury box.

And tonight, from Santa Maria, California, Court TV`s executive investigative editor -- wow, that`s a mouthful -- I just call her friend, Diane Dimond.

Also with me...

DIANE DIMOND, COURT TV EXECUTIVE INVESTIGATIVE EDITOR: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, friend.

Also with me, defense attorney Anne Bremner. She`s a Seattle lawyer. Also there in Santa Maria, my sparring buddy, Geoffrey Fieger from Michigan. Also with me in New York, prosecutor Lisa Pinto. And boy, do we need a shrink, psychologist Caryn Stark.

You know, speaking of a shrink, I hardly know where to start when it comes to Michael Jackson. But let`s just go to the source, Diane Dimond.

Tell me, is it true? Do we have a jury? I thought, you know, this is California. It would take at least six months to strike a jury.

DIMOND: Well, we thought it would take about a month, Nancy, but it didn`t. By noon today, we had a panel of eight women, four men. Three are Hispanic. There`s one Asian woman. By the way, the Asian woman is married to a local television reporter from KCOY. He had been covering this case, but I talked to his news director today, and he said that, in interest of fair play, they have taken him off that assignment.

So, anyway, eight women, four men.

GRACE: Eight women, four men. And question: How close are we to getting the alternates?

DIMOND: Well, fairly close. They think that they`ll be done picking the eight alternates tomorrow. They got through -- Tom Mesereau got through all of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) today, and Ron Zonen, the assistant D.A., got through about half of it.

So we`ll start with that tomorrow. And then, don`t forget, we have got a whole pile of motions to go through. That`ll probably be on Friday.

GRACE: Hey, Fieger, you know, I always wanted at least two to four alternates just to be safe, but after Peterson, I`m okay with eight alternates. What do you think? Are they overdoing it or not?

GEOFFREY FIEGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. Because of the length of this trial, you have got to hope that, if you`re not successful in the first 12 that are in the box, that there`s going to be some replacements and who you`ve selected as the alternative is going to be good for you. And I think that`s where Mesereau can do some good for his client. Because this jury scares me, at least on paper, as a defense attorney.

GRACE: Why? Oh, as a defense lawyer. OK, I understand. I love this jury.

FIEGER: To begin with, yes, exactly. The ex-prosecutors are from Santa Barbara. They`re primarily white, and don`t give me this stuff about Hispanic. They`re primarily white. They`re very well-educated. They`re old. They have got military in their background. They believe in authority.

GRACE: In this kind of case, when you have a superstar like Jackson, I really don`t think race matters. I swear, I do not think race matters in this case.

FIEGER: No, of course. You have got a black man who looks like a white woman. So, you`re right. Race, in that sense, doesn`t matter. But I`ll tell you where it does matter. Blacks are more suspicious of authority. They understand that people can be wrongfully charged. They accept that you`re innocent until proven guilty.

Whites by and large believe you did something, Nancy, in order to get charged. You must have done something. And therefore, you have to prove your innocence. Take it from a defense attorney. That`s prevailing in the United States among whites.

GRACE: Hey, Diane Dimond, we just showed a shot of Michael Jackson. And in that shot, I think it was the day that he and his whole entourage showed up in all white. I say -- and not that this is evidence -- but I say Jackson has got to lose the fake military medallions. What is that around his waist?

You know, he`s always got kind of a family crest. Yesterday, I think it was a deer, a deer sewn onto...

DIANE DIMOND: Yes, he had deer antlers on. He had a deer antler brooch. And he wanted to be sure that the court artist got it right. So he, you know, kind of showed it to him.

You know, he`s not wearing white anymore, Nancy. He`s wearing black. It`s more sedate, but he has got these beautiful vests that he wears. Today, he had a red shirt and a colorful red vest, and this like watch fob, sort of, waist chain that you`re talking about. And it`s got -- about this big. They`re little miniature royal crowns, you know? And they drape down. It`s a beautiful piece of jewelry. And maybe he thinks it`s his good-luck charm, because he`s wearing it everyday now.

GRACE: OK, Geoff, not to beat a dead horse or anything, but if this were your client, I`ve got a feeling you would wrestle him to the ground and tear off the watch fob, and the crest, and the military paraphernalia before you let him...

FIEGER: I`d dress him like an ordinary person to the extent that he could. I`d wash off the make-up.

But let me tell you this: Michael Jackson has never, ever been told no. And that`s the problem. And I doubt that Mesereau really controls Michael Jackson. And that`s going to be a problem throughout this trial, a big problem.

GRACE: You know, Diane Dimond, you and I were talking earlier today. I don`t care, man, woman, black, white. All I care about is, do they have a job? I want to see that jury`s resume. I don`t want some slacker that doesn`t have to go to work in the morning, that takes a government check. Forget about it. I want somebody that shows up and punches the clock. Please tell me the 12 in the box, the jurors, have jobs.

DIMOND: They do. And the ones who didn`t have jobs got off on hardships, because a lot of them said, "Hey, I`m going for job interviews, your honor. Please let me go." And he did.

Let me just tell you real quickly. The age span here is from 20 -- that`s the youngest. It`s a Hispanic man who is a cashier. And the oldest is a 79-year-old woman who is a widow, really, really interested in her community. She has a grandson who is a registered sexual deviant. But here`s what they do for a living. I`ll tell you. A physical therapist in an old age home, she`s a widow, retired, a former math teacher. Didn`t you used to be a former math teacher?

GRACE: No, English teacher.

DIMOND: Weren`t you something like that? OK. Here`s one that is a horse trainer...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I carry a calculator at all times.

DIMOND: This one is a horse trainer...

GRACE: Hey, Diane, Diane...

DIMOND: ... and she donates lessons to abused children.

GRACE: That`s what I was going to ask you about. Because, in this case, the alleged victim of sexual abuse, here is a woman that donates her time as a horse trainer for child molestation victims.

Diane Dimond is with me right there at the courtroom, been in the courtroom all day long. And we`re going to bring in the rest of the panel.

But quickly, as we go to break tonight, "Trial Tracking." "Baretta" star Robert Blake, hey, tell it to the parrot. The defense rests its case today -- yes, I blinked my eyes. It`s over. And they never called Blake to the stand. Instead, the jury got to hear an old "20/20" Barbara Walters interview with Blake where he talks about his little girl, Rosie, and her mom, the murder victim, Bonny Lee Bakley. Bakley, shot to death in Blake`s car outside Vitello`s Restaurant in May 2001.

More on Jackson when we come back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Years ago, I allowed a family to visit and spend some time at Neverland. Neverland is my home. I allowed this family into my home because they told me their son was ill with cancer and needed my help.

Through the years, I have helped thousands of children who were ill or in distress. These events have caused a nightmare for my family, my children, and me. I never intend to place myself in so vulnerable a position ever again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: This is a shot of Michael Jackson is a much more subdued courtroom outfit, coming into the courthouse. There is his lawyer on the right with the silver hair, Mesereau. That`s his entourage, the always- trusty umbrella, be it rain or shine. Jackson headed to court.

Welcome back, everybody. Quickly to Anne Bremner, Seattle lawyer there at the courthouse.

How was he in front of the jury?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m sorry, Nancy. What? A car just went by.

GRACE: OK, dear. How was he in front of the injury?

BREMNER: I just -- how long is it going to take them to pick the jury?

GRACE: No, sweetie. How was Michael Jackson`s demeanor in front of the jury?

BREMNER: I`ve got it now. I got it now. The fans have already been out here, but the traffic`s kind of loud.

You know, his demeanor was good. And, you know, he`s dignified. I think he`s taking it seriously.

And, you know, one thing that`s really kind of striking about him, when the jurors talk about their children, Nancy, he seems to smile in a way that is kind of indulgent, like he loves children in the right way and not the wrong way. And he`s not -- he smiles at the appropriate times. But he`s also serious and taking it seriously. So I think, you know, he`s getting an A.

GRACE: Well, hold on. Let me go back to Diane Dimond from Court TV.

Diane, Anne says he`s taking it seriously. I`m sure he is. Nobody wants to go to the can for 30 years. But didn`t he try to -- his people tried to barter something in court today?

DIMOND: Yes, they did. And I`ll tell you, he reacts when there was an African-American woman answering questions. And he liked what he was hearing. And he was nodding his head. And then she got tossed, and he put his head in his hands like this.

Yes, the barter thing had to do with the court reporter -- the court artist, rather. And he sent his attorney, Brian Oxman, over. I was sitting right next to Bill Robles, the artist. And Brian Oxman leaned over and he said, "Mr. Jackson would like to sign some of your artwork. And I`ve been authorized to ask you about cost, unless we can do a little trade."

And I thought to myself, a, that`s sort of inappropriate. You know, take him in the back and ask him. But the jurors were sitting one row behind me. I heard it. They likely heard it.

GRACE: He was going to trade his autograph for a court picture, right?

DIMOND: Or two or three. That`s what it sure sounded like to me. That`s what Bill Robles said he thought it was.

GRACE: Hey, Diane, I`m hearing in my ear from Elizabeth, we have got 30 seconds. When is opening statement?

DIMOND: Monday morning. I`m going to bet you it is Monday morning. Not official yet, but my sources are telling me Monday.

GRACE: And I know who will be on row one, Diane Dimond. Please join us again, friend.

DIMOND: You bet.

GRACE: Everyone else is staying with us. Diane is headed away. She`s been at the courthouse since this morning at 7:00 a.m.

We here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Tonight, take a look at this 12-year-old girl. What a cutie. Samantha Detzler. She was last seen around 10:00 p.m. Saturday, leaving her grandmother`s in Lansing, Michigan, blue jeans, blue shirt and a gray hood sweatshirt. If you have any info, please call 1-800-THE-LOST.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi. Here is your "Headline Prime News Break."

President Bush will wrap up his European trip by meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Slovakia tomorrow. Bush says, "It seems like Russia is retreating from democracy." He`s concerned about Russia`s recent moves against press and religious freedom.

For the first time, Kobe Bryant will answer questions under oath from lawyers of the woman accusing him of rape. Friday, Bryant will meet with them for seven hours in Los Angeles. The woman is seeking an undisclosed sum in her federal lawsuit for alleged mental injuries. Bryant has apologized, but he insists the sex was consensual.

And President Bush is trying to sweeten New York`s bid for the 2012 Olympics. He`s doing it by promising that the government will help pay for security. The security costs for the Athens games was more than $1 billion.

And that`s the news for now. Sophia Choi, now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASSI WEBBER, SARAH JOHNSON`S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: She didn`t like her mother very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. In fact, did you ever tell the police in stronger terms what Sarah might have said?

WEBBER: She thought her mom was a bitch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now with us Boise, Idaho, Sarah Johnson`s defense attorney, Bob Pangburn.

Bob, watched you in court today. Where do you plan to go with your defense?

BOB PANGBURN, SARAH JOHNSON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, as I think we talked the other night, our defense is that simply, from a scientific perspective, Sarah could not have committed either of these crimes.

GRACE: Because?

PANGBURN: Well, because the person who did the shooting would have been covered in blood. And witness, after witness, after witness has said that Sarah had absolutely no blood of any kind on her.

GRACE: Now, Geoff Fieger, I want to talk to you about that pink bathrobe, very quickly, before I move on to what happened in court today.

Geoff...

FIEGER: Yes.

GRACE: ... the girl`s pink bathrobe, covered in blood, found in the trash can out front. In the pocket, Geoff, a leather glove, a latex glove with her DNA on it, and five .25 caliber bullets. Does it seem reasonable to you that the shooter would put that on, shoot, take it off, and throw it in the trash, as they ran out of the house?

FIEGER: Well, the other matching glove was found in Sarah`s bedroom. Remember, this is...

GRACE: I hate when that happens. It`s just like O.J., Geoff.

FIEGER: Yes, this is circumstantial evidence. It`s not direct evidence showing Sarah committed the crime. But obviously, jurors are allowed to conclude under those circumstances that this may be the person who committed the crime.

Now, I don`t believe the bathrobe is necessarily covered with blood, but it does have blood on it. And there is rubber glove and there is a leather glove, and there is ammunition. And under those circumstances the jury will be allowed to conclude, if they so find, that that points the finger at Sarah. And that`s an unfortunate circumstance for the defense.

GRACE: Geoff, when did you start talking like a judge?

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: That scared me. You`re not judicial.

FIEGER: Oh, yes, I am. I`m judicious when I need to be.

GRACE: OK, when it`s not your case, then you get real judicial.

FIEGER: That`s right.

GRACE: When it`s your case, just mean. Hold on...

FIEGER: When I want to appear more objective with you, Nancy, and more reasonable against your sometimes unreasonableness.

GRACE: There you go. That`s the Geoff Fieger I know. OK.

Lisa Pinto, former prosecutor, is with me. Let`s talk about today. Her demeanor in court hasn`t changed much. As a matter of fact, take a listen -- do you have a sports car? I didn`t even know what one of these was.

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Not a Viper.

GRACE: We`re talking about a Viper. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever talk to you about the financial assets of the estate and how they might be split up or anything?

KASSI WEBBER, SARAH JOHNSON`S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: Not about her house or anything, but that her mom had a car that had been sold and she wasn`t very happy about that. She didn`t feel think that was very fair. But...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall what kind of car she said that her mother had?

WEBBER: I think she told me it was a Viper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Were you aware that it was actually a Honda?

WEBBER: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A Viper.

PINTO: There she is, lying again, Nancy. You know, whenever she talks to these girls, she never tells them the truth. She lies about what her parents does. She lies about whether she`s engaged and when she got engaged. Now here`s she`s lying about the type of car it was. And, you know, these girls...

GRACE: It`s amazing. It`s just like Peterson. It doesn`t even matter. He just lies.

PINTO: It`s a fantasy world that she lives in. And you can understand, not to borrow the shrink`s word, but a sociopath makes up these fantasy worlds where, you know, everything was copasetic.

And I think what`s particularly damning today was witness after witness from the jail saying she couldn`t have cared less about her parents. She called her mother a bitch. You know, we talk about how people grieve. But no matter how you grieve, you don`t call your dead mother a bitch...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`m taking the soap to your mouth, young lady.

PINTO: Sorry.

GRACE: Speaking about being pampered, here are Sarah Johnson`s plans for when she gets out of jail. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALINDA GONZALEZ, SARAH JOHNSON`S JAILMATE: She said that she did not want to spend her 17th birthday in jail and when she gets out, she`s going to get completely pampered, have massages and stuff like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Massages, pedicures, manicures.

OK, Caryn Stark, we lawyers can`t do this justice. Shrink me.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Typical antisocial personality, Nancy. Somebody who doesn`t know the difference between right and wrong, who has no conscience. You see that she had a particularly tempestuous relationship with her mother. They say not just a normal child fighting with a mother.

And what is with the dynamics of this family? The father takes her hunting? She watches him shoot over and over again?

GRACE: You know, a lot of people think that -- my father would take to me ball games and drive me around. We`d do things together. I never shot a gun, but I don`t think that`s odd.

STARK: There`s a difference between -- I don`t know, Nancy. There`s a difference between a ball game and taking someone who`s too young to really know the difference between using guns on animals, violence, even being able to handle a gun. That person -- she shouldn`t be around shooting.

GRACE: You know. Good question for Bob Pangburn, Sarah Johnson`s defense lawyer.

Now, listen, I`m giving Bob a hard time. This guy knows his way around the courtroom. As much as I`m torturing him, tried a lot of cases, won a lot of cases. I thought you told me the other night your girl doesn`t know anything about any guns.

PANGBURN: Well, she hardly knows anything about any guns.

GRACE: Oh, so she may know a little something about (gunshot noise)...

PANGBURN: Well, this is Idaho. Everybody knows something about a gun.

PINTO: I don`t know about that. I don`t know about that.

PANGBURN: Sarah took the opportunity to get outdoors with her folks. The witness -- as the state tries to say...

GRACE: Opportunity to get outside and...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Go ahead. Go ahead. We`ll let you speak.

PANGBURN: The state offers evidence -- all right -- that she went hunting and then sat down. And then the next question right out of my mouth, did she take a gun? No.

So, I mean, this is a common theme with this case. They`re trying to make her a murderer because she exaggerates some things and that she may not grieve like other people grieve.

GRACE: You know, so far, you have managed to keep this out of evidence.

Take a listen to this, Geoff Fieger, to a snitch from behind bars recounting what Sarah Johnson said after watching an episode of "Cold Case Files" about blood-spatter evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were watching this video along with Sarah -- and actually I guess it was the television program -- did the defendant turn to you and make any comment?

MALINDA GONZALEZ, SARAH JOHNSON`S JAILMATE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was that comment?

GONZALEZ: She said, "I`m going to get convicted."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Ruh-roh.

Hey, Fieger, I bet you hate it when your client says something like that after watching forensic files or "Cold Case." They go, uh-oh, I`m going to jail.

FIEGER: Yes, well, this is -- first of all, what`s so unusual about this case is that this is a fairly young girl who`s accused of a very brutal crime which is relatively unusual. But these type of statements, I`m not sure why the judge is letting them in.

GRACE: He didn`t let it in yet. Not in yet, Geoff.

FIEGER: Well, and I hope it doesn`t come in. That`s not an admission of anything. And, frankly, a lot of the other suggestions...

GRACE: I don`t know what you`re talking about, Geoff. When I see "Cold Case Files," I don`t think I`m going to get arrested and go to jail. But she did.

FIEGER: Well, maybe she -- well, maybe, but I don`t think it`s an admission of anything.

But another thing is, her demeanor. I have to agree. The fact that she doesn`t respond the way other people think she should respond or think that they would respond to a tragedy is not evidence of guilt. And I don`t really -- I really think it`s far more prejudicial than probative in terms of the standard of proof in this case. That doesn`t prove anything. If she said one thing, she didn`t appear appropriately saddened by her parents` death, how people react to death is not indicative of guilt necessarily.

GRACE: Well, you know what? I`ve heard a lot of defense lawyers argue exactly that. Remember Geragos argued that in Peterson. You see where it got him.

FIEGER: No, I understand that. But this isn`t pervasive, the fact that she was worried about her fingernails or something. That doesn`t really prove anything.

In Geragos`s case, there was tapes of during his wife`s mourning, he`s seducing another woman and lying about where he is. This hardly reaches that level, Nancy. And really, honestly.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I agree with you. I agree with you on that. Very quick response.

PINTO: Well, I think when she said, "When I killed my parents -- oops, I mean when they killed my parents," Geoffrey, to me, that is an admission against penal interest. I think that should come in.

GRACE: And as Fieger pointed out, as Fieger pointed out, that`s not in yet. I`m going to let Lisa detail that for you when we get back.

Bob Pangburn, you got your work cut out for you, buddy.

We`ll all be right back as we finish our analysis of the Sarah Johnson case. That case going down in Idaho right now, 16-year-old on trial for the murder of her mom and dad. It`s hard to even take that in. The mom shot in the head. The dad shot, asleep, the dad shot in the chest coming out of the shower.

This is where they`re sleeping tonight, the Bellevue cemetery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASSI WEBBER, SARAH JOHNSON`S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: She told me that her and her mom didn`t get along very well. They argued or didn`t see eye- to-eye on things, I guess.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And how about her dad?

WEBBER: Just that her and her dad were really close and she`d practiced volleyball and stuff with him. And they got along really well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

A tragic, a disturbing, and a heart-wrenching case out of Idaho. Many people believe Idaho is this rural, bucolic, pastoral setting. Then suddenly, bam, a double murder. Then blamed on the daughter of this couple, Alan and Diane Johnson, gunned down in the prime of their lives in their own home. She was asleep in the bed. He was just coming out of the shower when he took a rifle blast to the chest.

Again, welcome back. Very quickly to Anne Bremner. Anne is a veteran trial lawyer standing by with us in California.

Anne, you have handled a lot of juvenile cases, as have Fieger, as have I and Lisa Pinto.

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: But bottom line, Anne, how hard is it to get a conviction on a teenager, especially a cute, girl teenager?

BREMNER: Well, it`s very difficult, because we want to believe, you know, that children are children, you know, youth is truth, that they don`t do things like this, that they don`t mean to do things like this.

And, you know, we have a very experienced panel, of course, in these types of cases, but I think that there`s just a real reluctance to want to take a child down as an adult.

GRACE: You know, Anne, I don`t know if you can see a monitor. But we just showed Sarah Johnson in court and she was crying. And like, "Eh, eh, eh, and can I get my nails done before the funeral?" Oh, there she goes again.

BREMNER: Yes, I mean, that`s terrible. That`s just terrible, the manicure and pedicure. And that`s going to really go against her.

You know, I was going to say one thing, Nancy. Down here in Santa Maria, we actually have one of Michael Jackson`s fans out here in a pink bathrobe yesterday. So that`s the only connection I can -- when you keep talking about the pink bathrobe in this case, there was one. But it`s in Santa Maria, not Idaho.

GRACE: And apparently, Geoff Fieger, you and Pangburn don`t think that the pedicure, manicure, massage statement means anything. But I can tell you this much: You have got a kid whose parents were just murdered in the house where they were sleeping, and she`s like, "I need a manicure before the funeral."

FIEGER: I understand. But I`ll tell you this: I disagree with your last guest who said it`s difficult to convict children. I represented the youngest child ever charged with murder in the history of the United States, Nate Abraham. And my experience tells me that Americans are so angry about crime and their perception that children or young people commit crime that it`s exactly the opposite.

In fact, when you start charging them as adults, it`s very easy to convict children nowadays unfortunately. And we are punishing younger and younger children, imprisoning younger and younger children. I`m not excusing violence. All I`m suggesting to you, it`s not a great trend in America.

GRACE: Well, there are really no good alternatives, no easy answers in the juvenile justice system. With that much, I`ll agree with you, Geoff Fieger.

Lisa Pinto, you are referring to the slip of the tongue this girl apparently made.

PINTO: Well, there she is housed with an inmate, Malinda Gonzalez, and she says something about, "When I killed my parents -- I mean, when they killed my parents..."

GRACE: "When the killer killed my parents."

PINTO: Not me, not me. And then the snitch says, "Oh, don`t worry" - - ironically -- "I won`t snitch on you." So this is a great statement for the prosecution. And it`s also very plausible, that there they were.

GRACE: It comes in, you`re darn right.

What does it mean, Caryn Stark -- Caryn is a psychologist here in New York -- when you unload and you tell your cell mate all about the murder. And then you say, "But don`t tell anybody. Shh." They always tell.

STARK: They always tell. And this is somebody who can`t keep things to herself. It`s kind of like a Freudian slip. What is a Freudian slip? It`s something where somebody actually makes a slip that speaks the truth. And she keeps speaking the truth.

Also, Nancy, with her demeanor, I think that it`s not just getting her nails done, but she was hugging some relative who came to console her. And then she turned over her shoulder and she said, you know, to her friend, "Go check to see if Bruno is OK."

GRACE: Her boyfriend.

STARK: So then how could that be somebody who is grieving? I mean, her -- I really disagree with Geoffrey. Her behavior is of somebody who has no feelings whatsoever.

GRACE: Very quickly to Bob Pangburn.

Bob, you managed to keep out the Freudian slip, as Caryn Stark just called it. She had been watching this "Cold Case Files," or "CSI," or something with her jail mate and went, "Oh, well, when I killed my parents -- oops, I mean, when that other person killed my parents." You kept that out of evidence, right? How did you do it?

PANGBURN: Well, for one thing, as one of your other guests stated, it simply isn`t relevant to anything in this case. It doesn`t show that -- it doesn`t tend to prove any fact of any relevance.

GRACE: Sounds like a confession to me. It sounds like a confession.

PANGBURN: And this isn`t a -- she`s a 16-year-old girl. She`s in jail. Her parents had been killed. I can`t imagine that she`d have any issues with depression that would cause her to believe that she might get convicted. It had no bearing on this case. It should have stayed out. The judge did a good job of keeping it out.

GRACE: Well, I think the judge was wrong, because I think it was a confession. And this is not a confession that has been forced out of her, or tortured out of her, or tricked out of her. Where was she? Why is she watching TV behind bars, anyway, cable at that?

FIEGER: She has not been convicted of anything, Nancy.

PANGBURN: Precisely.

GRACE: OK, thank you for reminding me of that, Geoff. But she`s still behind bars.

Is that true, Bob, number one? She has cable TV? I have got to pay for that. Have you seen the bills in New York at Time Warner? This girl has cable? She`s talking about a manicure, and a pedicure, and a massage?

PANGBURN: Well, I can guarantee, you would not want to trade places with her when she was in jail in Blaine County. All she had was cable TV.

GRACE: OK, quick question: Before this incident, this girl, Sarah Johnson, 16 years old at the time, made pretty good grades, was on the volleyball team. She got along with her parents. I mean, didn`t like her mom that much, but they got along, right?

PANGBURN: And she loved her dad. That`s a fact that seems to kind of slip by everybody is that, well, yes, she didn`t get along with her mom as well as maybe her mother or her would have liked. However, that`s not unusual for teenage girls. But she loved her dad. Why on Earth would she have shot her dad? It makes no sense. It simply makes no sense.

GRACE: Well, you`re up against a lot of forensic evidence.

Everybody, we are taking a quick break. Panel`s still here, an all- star panel of lawyers and psychologist.

For some of you, local news is next. For the rest of you, we`ll be right back. And remember, I`ll bring you live trial coverage of the Sarah Johnson trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." For now, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim, if you know of an injustice, or you know about a case that needs a spotlight, call us, 1-888-GRACE-01, 472- 2301, or e-mail us, Nancygrace@CNN.com.

All of our cases tonight have had such an element of tragedy. I want to say something happy. A big happy birthday to our executive producer out in California. Happy birthday, Wendy.

And to my producer that I fired the other night. She came back. Elizabeth Yusguides, happy birthday, friend.

Oh, is Elizabeth back there in the control room? Hi, Liz. Oh, she`s waving. We took her back. Thank you, dear.

Very quickly, Anne, final thought?

BREMNER: Well, speaking of tragedy, in this case, the Michael Jackson, you know, F. Scott Fitzgerald said, "Show me a hero, and I`ll write you a tragedy." Michael Jackson`s been a hero to so many. And I`m flipping on you, Nancy, here. I`m going defense.

This case has no evidence. There`s a lack of witnesses, physical evidence of any kind. And now we have a witness, the complainant, who has lied in the past -- we`ve heard this now on the news...

GRACE: Right.

BREMNER: ... about his parents. And then there was an unfounded finding and then he recanted. And then his mother turns back around...

GRACE: OK, OK, OK, I get it. You`re telling me credibility problems.

BREMNER: I know, but what I`m telling you right now, Nancy, is this case is -- the tide is turning. And I think, at this point, Michael Jackson, you know, is one of the most vulnerable in our system...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`m glad to hear it, since they haven`t even had opening statements. The tide is turning. OK, point well-taken.

Very quickly, Geoff Fieger, final thought.

FIEGER: Hey, congratulations on your new show.

But these shots of cemeteries and this music, Nancy, I cry uncontrollably during these breaks. So we`ve got to lighten it up.

GRACE: Good. It`ll be the first time years I`ve seen you shed a tear.

FIEGER: We have got to lighten it up.

And believe me, Michael Jackson better be aware that, if at the end he`s convicted, they take him right away. So I`m not sure he`ll be around at the end.

GRACE: Bring your toothbrush, Michael.

And very quickly, to Bob Pangburn, I wanted to come back out to you, but I`ve run out of time. Please join us again. This guy is representing Sarah Johnson in court. And he`s got a tough case, made a lot of scores today in court, keeping out a lot of evidence. I guess I should say congratulations.

See you later, friend.

We are signing off everyone. I want to thank all of my guests. Caryn Stark, Anne Bremner, here in the studio, Lisa Pinto and Geoff Fieger.

My biggest thank you to you for being with us tonight. I`m signing off until tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp here. Good night, friend.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: I`m Erica Hill with your "Prime News Update."

More Iran today -- rain, rather, today in Southern California. That`s adding to an already bad scene in that area, sending houses skidding down hillsides. Floods are washing out roads, even an airport runway. Nine people have been killed. The mayor of Los Angeles is asking the city be declared a federal disaster area.

President Bush continues his European tour in Slovakia after visiting Germany earlier today. He`ll meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin there tomorrow. He`s asking Russia to renew its commitment to democracy.

And New York now ended its efforts to identify remains from the World Trade Center attacks. The city`s medical examiner says it was able to identify 58 percent of the more than 2,700 known victims. The office received fewer than 300 of those bodies intact.

"PRIME NEWS TONIGHT" is straight ahead. We`ve got it all covered for you, including what rocket fuel and breast milk have to do with each other. Stay tuned.

END


Aired February 23, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, the jury is struck in the Michael Jackson case.
The defense rests in the murder trial against "Baretta" star Robert Blake.

And 16-year-old Sarah Johnson`s "slip of the tongue" could land her behind bars for life. The 16-year-old, of course, is on trial for the murder of her own parents.

Also tonight, facts are beginning to emerge about that 37-year-old charged with suffocating both Lisa Underwood, at seven-months pregnant, and her seven-year-old little boy, Jayden, to death. Now acquaintances are painting him as prone to drinking, addicted to sex affairs, and depressed to boot. A makeshift memorial to Lisa and Jayden continues to swell tonight with stuffed animals, notes, flowers, balloons. The rest of us on the outside looking in and wondering why.

Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

A lot going down in the courthouse today. Before we go live to Santa Maria, California, and the Michael Jackson case, as well as taking you to Idaho and the Sarah Johnson trial -- remember the 16-year-old charged with the murder of her parents.

First, to the Lisa and Jayden Underwood case. When mom-to-be Lisa and her little boy went missing, we all hoped for the best and we feared the worst. Those fears confirmed when their bodies were found in a makeshift grave.

Well, tonight, Underwood`s ex-boyfriend, Stephen Barbee, is behind bars in Fort Worth, Texas, on $2 million bond. I want to show you...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GENE JONES, FORT WORTH POLICE DEPT.: Trust me. We were personally invested in this case. We were motivated by these two individuals. This is what drove us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to show you a live shot. Our crew is there in Justin, Texas, not only where the bodies were found -- Man, this is a makeshift memorial that was put up. Can you imagine? That`s the little bagel shop that Lisa Underwood owned. It was named "Boopa." And I looked into that and found out that was her nickname for her little boy.

That first live shot we just showed you was where the bodies were found --- can you imagine that -- near a swamping area, near a motocross speedway. That`s where those two people were laid to rest, a mother and son.

Let`s go live to Dallas. Standing by is CNN`s Ed Lavandera. From San Francisco, criminal profiler and former FBI agent, Candice Delong.

First to you, Ed. Ed, thank you for being with us tonight. Ed, what can you tell me about this guy, Stephen Barbee?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Stephen Barbee -- we have been listening to the reports coming in the last 24 hours about him. His parents live in a small town north of the Fort Worth area. They haven`t spoken. The woman he was married to hasn`t spoken publicly as well.

So what we`re hearing has been reports from people who have known him over the years. And the reports have ranged from what you mentioned add the top, you know, people who are closer to him saying that they`re surprised that he`s accused of this. But we`ve heard from people who say, in the last couple of years, there has seemed to be an angrier edge to Stephen Barbee that has kind of grown in the last couple of years.

GRACE: Hey, Ed. Ed, how long was this guy married?

LAVANDERA: He had just been recently remarried in December.

GRACE: So he married somebody else while this girl was pregnant?

LAVANDERA: Yes. He was married in December of last year. He had also bee married -- I think he was divorced in 2003. His first marriage lasted seven years. And those were reports that have come out in the last day or so, as well.

GRACE: So this is the second marriage.

You know, the reason I`m asking, Candice Delong, is because you and I were talking about motive, not that there is ever a good motive for murder. Candace, I once prosecuted a murder over $10, all right? So there`s never a good motive for murder.

But in this case, you`ve got a newlywed with a pregnant girlfriend. That doesn`t look good walking down the aisle, the wife on one side, the pregnant girlfriend on the other. Motive?

CANDICE DELONG, FBI CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right. Well, one thing that always occurs to me in cases like this, which are, I`m afraid, becoming all too common is, what was of course going on in his mind? What was the motive? Why did this happen now?

I`m wondering, did the wife know that he had a pregnant former girlfriend about to deliver? I`d like to know, when did he found out she, former girlfriend, was pregnant with his child and soon to be delivering?

GRACE: Well, Candace, Candace, the woman`s seven months. I think he would probably notice.

Hey, Ed Lavandera, that`s a good question. Did the wife know? It sounds to me you`re saying this is a small town. If it`s anything like where I come from, everybody knows everything.

LAVANDERA: Well, I don`t think the people of Fort Worth would think their town`s very small. But, at that point, whether or not he knew, didn`t know, we have nothing to be able to kind of help -- you know, kind of get us through that at this point.

GRACE: What about Ron Dodd?

LAVANDERA: Well, you know, I`m glad you bring him up. Because he`s actually the one who has been getting the most of the attention today. In fact, in the last half hour, we have learned that he has actually been arrested, picked up on a parole violation, we`ve been told by Fort Worth police.

GRACE: Hey, can I tell you? Birds of a feather, Ed. Say I`m crazy, but you have got this Ron Dodd -- everybody, who Ed is telling us about is Ron Dodd.

Dusty, let`s show him this. I`ve got this arrest warrant here that outlines Ron Dodd`s alleged involvement. This is a sworn affidavit signed by police.

What part did he play that we know of right now, Ed?

LAVANDERA: Well, this is the part that is rather fascinating. He was interviewed in Tyler Monday morning. But in this affidavit that you`re showing there, it lays out, according to the police, that on Friday night going into Saturday morning that Stephen Barbee called Ron Dodd several times -- he`s a business partner -- and asked him to pick him up in the areas where the bodies were found and Lisa Underwood`s car was found.

And at one point in the affidavit it also goes on to say that when he picked him up the last time, because his car -- he says in the affidavit -- that his car had run out of gas, that when he opened up the tail gate to the car -- Barbee did -- that Dodd had seen the bodies of Lisa and Jayden in the back of the car. So the questions being answered today...

GRACE: And he didn`t think to punch 911?

LAVANDERA: And exactly. That`s what has generated all of the buzz around Ron Dodd today is that, since he knew that, according to the affidavit, would have known it Friday and Saturday morning and never called authorities.

GRACE: Candice, I just can`t believe it. Somebody opens a trunk of a car and there`s a dead pregnant lady and a dead little boy. In the affidavit it says the little boy is four feet tall. And this guy goes, "Sure, I`ll get you some gas?"

DELONG: Right. And apparently he also said, if my memory serves me correctly, he didn`t notify authorities because he didn`t want to get involved. Well now we find out he has an arrest record for himself. He`s been violated on his parole. I`ll bet there`s a real good reason he didn`t want to notify authorities. And we`re probably about to find out in the next day or so.

GRACE: Hey, what was the parole violation, Ed Lavandera?

LAVANDERA: We asked that question. They won`t say or they`re not ready to say just yet. I asked if it was in connection to this particular crime or if it was in connection to another crime. And Fort Worth police saying they`re just not ready to specify...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold, Ed.

Ed, march right back down there, because arrest and convictions are public records. They don`t have a right to withhold that. Believe you me, Ed. If I had a little shoplifting or a drug arrest in my background, nobody has to release that. That is public record.

So, Ed, before you go, where do we stand now? What happens next? Do you think Dodd is going to be charged?

LAVANDERA: Well, you know, that is what everyone has been asking today. They say, you know, here`s a guy -- at the very least, what people are asking Fort Worth police is, if this is a man who, according to this affidavit had knowledge that this had happened, at the very least, people are wondering if he`s at least guilty of the very least of not reporting this and then somehow that would be an issue.

Now, there are a lot of other people who are closer to the family. And of course, at this point, this is speculation among people...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes, yes.

LAVANDERA: ... and that sort of thing. But they`re wondering if -- not a lot of people actually believe that -- I talked to yesterday out at the home that believed that Barbee acted alone. Now, that is...

GRACE: Yes.

LAVANDERA: ... very early on to say that from my standpoint. But you can understand where the questions are headed at this point. And I think it`s a strong indicated that the Fort Worth police, they have been wanting to talk to Ron Dodd all day today. And since this has happened late today, this just -- we`re finding out about this about a half an hour ago, there are strong...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You can put some money on this, Ed. You can put some money on this: They`ve got two ways to go. They can either try to charge him and leverage that to get testimony, in case that confession is suppressed, they need something else other than the defendant`s confession. Or they can secure his statement now and use him as a witness at trial.

Either way, I`m sure the police are anxious to speak to him.

Ed Lavandera is with us, CNN reporter. Also with me, and who will stay with me, Candace Delong, FBI profiler.

As we go to break, I`m not quite ready to let it go. We`re going to come back with Jackson and Sarah Johnson, but take a look at this. This is where Lisa Underwood and her little boy -- can you imagine -- seven years old, left out here in a soggy, shallow grave. Friends and family made this makeshift memorial. That`s what`s left of Lisa tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAVANDERA: At the evening vigil, a spokesperson for the family couldn`t finish her remarks without breaking down.

DEBBIE LINDLEY, FAMILY SPOKESWOMAN: It just really means a lot to us that you guys came out tonight to show your support for them. If we could just have a moment of silence in their honor, I`d appreciate it.

LAVANDERA: Sometimes there are no words. And on this night, the candles and the silence spoke volumes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: In the last few weeks, a large amount of ugly, malicious information has been released into the media about me. Apparently, this information was leaked through transcripts in a grand jury proceeding where neither my lawyers nor I ever appeared. The information is disgusting and false.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, believe it or not, another miracle. It took just under seven court days for the Michael Jackson jury to be struck and seated. It all went down today. That`s right. They are in the box, the jury box.

And tonight, from Santa Maria, California, Court TV`s executive investigative editor -- wow, that`s a mouthful -- I just call her friend, Diane Dimond.

Also with me...

DIANE DIMOND, COURT TV EXECUTIVE INVESTIGATIVE EDITOR: Hi, Nancy.

GRACE: Hi, friend.

Also with me, defense attorney Anne Bremner. She`s a Seattle lawyer. Also there in Santa Maria, my sparring buddy, Geoffrey Fieger from Michigan. Also with me in New York, prosecutor Lisa Pinto. And boy, do we need a shrink, psychologist Caryn Stark.

You know, speaking of a shrink, I hardly know where to start when it comes to Michael Jackson. But let`s just go to the source, Diane Dimond.

Tell me, is it true? Do we have a jury? I thought, you know, this is California. It would take at least six months to strike a jury.

DIMOND: Well, we thought it would take about a month, Nancy, but it didn`t. By noon today, we had a panel of eight women, four men. Three are Hispanic. There`s one Asian woman. By the way, the Asian woman is married to a local television reporter from KCOY. He had been covering this case, but I talked to his news director today, and he said that, in interest of fair play, they have taken him off that assignment.

So, anyway, eight women, four men.

GRACE: Eight women, four men. And question: How close are we to getting the alternates?

DIMOND: Well, fairly close. They think that they`ll be done picking the eight alternates tomorrow. They got through -- Tom Mesereau got through all of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) today, and Ron Zonen, the assistant D.A., got through about half of it.

So we`ll start with that tomorrow. And then, don`t forget, we have got a whole pile of motions to go through. That`ll probably be on Friday.

GRACE: Hey, Fieger, you know, I always wanted at least two to four alternates just to be safe, but after Peterson, I`m okay with eight alternates. What do you think? Are they overdoing it or not?

GEOFFREY FIEGER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. Because of the length of this trial, you have got to hope that, if you`re not successful in the first 12 that are in the box, that there`s going to be some replacements and who you`ve selected as the alternative is going to be good for you. And I think that`s where Mesereau can do some good for his client. Because this jury scares me, at least on paper, as a defense attorney.

GRACE: Why? Oh, as a defense lawyer. OK, I understand. I love this jury.

FIEGER: To begin with, yes, exactly. The ex-prosecutors are from Santa Barbara. They`re primarily white, and don`t give me this stuff about Hispanic. They`re primarily white. They`re very well-educated. They`re old. They have got military in their background. They believe in authority.

GRACE: In this kind of case, when you have a superstar like Jackson, I really don`t think race matters. I swear, I do not think race matters in this case.

FIEGER: No, of course. You have got a black man who looks like a white woman. So, you`re right. Race, in that sense, doesn`t matter. But I`ll tell you where it does matter. Blacks are more suspicious of authority. They understand that people can be wrongfully charged. They accept that you`re innocent until proven guilty.

Whites by and large believe you did something, Nancy, in order to get charged. You must have done something. And therefore, you have to prove your innocence. Take it from a defense attorney. That`s prevailing in the United States among whites.

GRACE: Hey, Diane Dimond, we just showed a shot of Michael Jackson. And in that shot, I think it was the day that he and his whole entourage showed up in all white. I say -- and not that this is evidence -- but I say Jackson has got to lose the fake military medallions. What is that around his waist?

You know, he`s always got kind of a family crest. Yesterday, I think it was a deer, a deer sewn onto...

DIANE DIMOND: Yes, he had deer antlers on. He had a deer antler brooch. And he wanted to be sure that the court artist got it right. So he, you know, kind of showed it to him.

You know, he`s not wearing white anymore, Nancy. He`s wearing black. It`s more sedate, but he has got these beautiful vests that he wears. Today, he had a red shirt and a colorful red vest, and this like watch fob, sort of, waist chain that you`re talking about. And it`s got -- about this big. They`re little miniature royal crowns, you know? And they drape down. It`s a beautiful piece of jewelry. And maybe he thinks it`s his good-luck charm, because he`s wearing it everyday now.

GRACE: OK, Geoff, not to beat a dead horse or anything, but if this were your client, I`ve got a feeling you would wrestle him to the ground and tear off the watch fob, and the crest, and the military paraphernalia before you let him...

FIEGER: I`d dress him like an ordinary person to the extent that he could. I`d wash off the make-up.

But let me tell you this: Michael Jackson has never, ever been told no. And that`s the problem. And I doubt that Mesereau really controls Michael Jackson. And that`s going to be a problem throughout this trial, a big problem.

GRACE: You know, Diane Dimond, you and I were talking earlier today. I don`t care, man, woman, black, white. All I care about is, do they have a job? I want to see that jury`s resume. I don`t want some slacker that doesn`t have to go to work in the morning, that takes a government check. Forget about it. I want somebody that shows up and punches the clock. Please tell me the 12 in the box, the jurors, have jobs.

DIMOND: They do. And the ones who didn`t have jobs got off on hardships, because a lot of them said, "Hey, I`m going for job interviews, your honor. Please let me go." And he did.

Let me just tell you real quickly. The age span here is from 20 -- that`s the youngest. It`s a Hispanic man who is a cashier. And the oldest is a 79-year-old woman who is a widow, really, really interested in her community. She has a grandson who is a registered sexual deviant. But here`s what they do for a living. I`ll tell you. A physical therapist in an old age home, she`s a widow, retired, a former math teacher. Didn`t you used to be a former math teacher?

GRACE: No, English teacher.

DIMOND: Weren`t you something like that? OK. Here`s one that is a horse trainer...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I carry a calculator at all times.

DIMOND: This one is a horse trainer...

GRACE: Hey, Diane, Diane...

DIMOND: ... and she donates lessons to abused children.

GRACE: That`s what I was going to ask you about. Because, in this case, the alleged victim of sexual abuse, here is a woman that donates her time as a horse trainer for child molestation victims.

Diane Dimond is with me right there at the courtroom, been in the courtroom all day long. And we`re going to bring in the rest of the panel.

But quickly, as we go to break tonight, "Trial Tracking." "Baretta" star Robert Blake, hey, tell it to the parrot. The defense rests its case today -- yes, I blinked my eyes. It`s over. And they never called Blake to the stand. Instead, the jury got to hear an old "20/20" Barbara Walters interview with Blake where he talks about his little girl, Rosie, and her mom, the murder victim, Bonny Lee Bakley. Bakley, shot to death in Blake`s car outside Vitello`s Restaurant in May 2001.

More on Jackson when we come back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Years ago, I allowed a family to visit and spend some time at Neverland. Neverland is my home. I allowed this family into my home because they told me their son was ill with cancer and needed my help.

Through the years, I have helped thousands of children who were ill or in distress. These events have caused a nightmare for my family, my children, and me. I never intend to place myself in so vulnerable a position ever again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: This is a shot of Michael Jackson is a much more subdued courtroom outfit, coming into the courthouse. There is his lawyer on the right with the silver hair, Mesereau. That`s his entourage, the always- trusty umbrella, be it rain or shine. Jackson headed to court.

Welcome back, everybody. Quickly to Anne Bremner, Seattle lawyer there at the courthouse.

How was he in front of the jury?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I`m sorry, Nancy. What? A car just went by.

GRACE: OK, dear. How was he in front of the injury?

BREMNER: I just -- how long is it going to take them to pick the jury?

GRACE: No, sweetie. How was Michael Jackson`s demeanor in front of the jury?

BREMNER: I`ve got it now. I got it now. The fans have already been out here, but the traffic`s kind of loud.

You know, his demeanor was good. And, you know, he`s dignified. I think he`s taking it seriously.

And, you know, one thing that`s really kind of striking about him, when the jurors talk about their children, Nancy, he seems to smile in a way that is kind of indulgent, like he loves children in the right way and not the wrong way. And he`s not -- he smiles at the appropriate times. But he`s also serious and taking it seriously. So I think, you know, he`s getting an A.

GRACE: Well, hold on. Let me go back to Diane Dimond from Court TV.

Diane, Anne says he`s taking it seriously. I`m sure he is. Nobody wants to go to the can for 30 years. But didn`t he try to -- his people tried to barter something in court today?

DIMOND: Yes, they did. And I`ll tell you, he reacts when there was an African-American woman answering questions. And he liked what he was hearing. And he was nodding his head. And then she got tossed, and he put his head in his hands like this.

Yes, the barter thing had to do with the court reporter -- the court artist, rather. And he sent his attorney, Brian Oxman, over. I was sitting right next to Bill Robles, the artist. And Brian Oxman leaned over and he said, "Mr. Jackson would like to sign some of your artwork. And I`ve been authorized to ask you about cost, unless we can do a little trade."

And I thought to myself, a, that`s sort of inappropriate. You know, take him in the back and ask him. But the jurors were sitting one row behind me. I heard it. They likely heard it.

GRACE: He was going to trade his autograph for a court picture, right?

DIMOND: Or two or three. That`s what it sure sounded like to me. That`s what Bill Robles said he thought it was.

GRACE: Hey, Diane, I`m hearing in my ear from Elizabeth, we have got 30 seconds. When is opening statement?

DIMOND: Monday morning. I`m going to bet you it is Monday morning. Not official yet, but my sources are telling me Monday.

GRACE: And I know who will be on row one, Diane Dimond. Please join us again, friend.

DIMOND: You bet.

GRACE: Everyone else is staying with us. Diane is headed away. She`s been at the courthouse since this morning at 7:00 a.m.

We here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Tonight, take a look at this 12-year-old girl. What a cutie. Samantha Detzler. She was last seen around 10:00 p.m. Saturday, leaving her grandmother`s in Lansing, Michigan, blue jeans, blue shirt and a gray hood sweatshirt. If you have any info, please call 1-800-THE-LOST.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi. Here is your "Headline Prime News Break."

President Bush will wrap up his European trip by meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Slovakia tomorrow. Bush says, "It seems like Russia is retreating from democracy." He`s concerned about Russia`s recent moves against press and religious freedom.

For the first time, Kobe Bryant will answer questions under oath from lawyers of the woman accusing him of rape. Friday, Bryant will meet with them for seven hours in Los Angeles. The woman is seeking an undisclosed sum in her federal lawsuit for alleged mental injuries. Bryant has apologized, but he insists the sex was consensual.

And President Bush is trying to sweeten New York`s bid for the 2012 Olympics. He`s doing it by promising that the government will help pay for security. The security costs for the Athens games was more than $1 billion.

And that`s the news for now. Sophia Choi, now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASSI WEBBER, SARAH JOHNSON`S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: She didn`t like her mother very much.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. In fact, did you ever tell the police in stronger terms what Sarah might have said?

WEBBER: She thought her mom was a bitch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Now with us Boise, Idaho, Sarah Johnson`s defense attorney, Bob Pangburn.

Bob, watched you in court today. Where do you plan to go with your defense?

BOB PANGBURN, SARAH JOHNSON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, as I think we talked the other night, our defense is that simply, from a scientific perspective, Sarah could not have committed either of these crimes.

GRACE: Because?

PANGBURN: Well, because the person who did the shooting would have been covered in blood. And witness, after witness, after witness has said that Sarah had absolutely no blood of any kind on her.

GRACE: Now, Geoff Fieger, I want to talk to you about that pink bathrobe, very quickly, before I move on to what happened in court today.

Geoff...

FIEGER: Yes.

GRACE: ... the girl`s pink bathrobe, covered in blood, found in the trash can out front. In the pocket, Geoff, a leather glove, a latex glove with her DNA on it, and five .25 caliber bullets. Does it seem reasonable to you that the shooter would put that on, shoot, take it off, and throw it in the trash, as they ran out of the house?

FIEGER: Well, the other matching glove was found in Sarah`s bedroom. Remember, this is...

GRACE: I hate when that happens. It`s just like O.J., Geoff.

FIEGER: Yes, this is circumstantial evidence. It`s not direct evidence showing Sarah committed the crime. But obviously, jurors are allowed to conclude under those circumstances that this may be the person who committed the crime.

Now, I don`t believe the bathrobe is necessarily covered with blood, but it does have blood on it. And there is rubber glove and there is a leather glove, and there is ammunition. And under those circumstances the jury will be allowed to conclude, if they so find, that that points the finger at Sarah. And that`s an unfortunate circumstance for the defense.

GRACE: Geoff, when did you start talking like a judge?

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: That scared me. You`re not judicial.

FIEGER: Oh, yes, I am. I`m judicious when I need to be.

GRACE: OK, when it`s not your case, then you get real judicial.

FIEGER: That`s right.

GRACE: When it`s your case, just mean. Hold on...

FIEGER: When I want to appear more objective with you, Nancy, and more reasonable against your sometimes unreasonableness.

GRACE: There you go. That`s the Geoff Fieger I know. OK.

Lisa Pinto, former prosecutor, is with me. Let`s talk about today. Her demeanor in court hasn`t changed much. As a matter of fact, take a listen -- do you have a sports car? I didn`t even know what one of these was.

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Not a Viper.

GRACE: We`re talking about a Viper. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever talk to you about the financial assets of the estate and how they might be split up or anything?

KASSI WEBBER, SARAH JOHNSON`S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: Not about her house or anything, but that her mom had a car that had been sold and she wasn`t very happy about that. She didn`t feel think that was very fair. But...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall what kind of car she said that her mother had?

WEBBER: I think she told me it was a Viper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Were you aware that it was actually a Honda?

WEBBER: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A Viper.

PINTO: There she is, lying again, Nancy. You know, whenever she talks to these girls, she never tells them the truth. She lies about what her parents does. She lies about whether she`s engaged and when she got engaged. Now here`s she`s lying about the type of car it was. And, you know, these girls...

GRACE: It`s amazing. It`s just like Peterson. It doesn`t even matter. He just lies.

PINTO: It`s a fantasy world that she lives in. And you can understand, not to borrow the shrink`s word, but a sociopath makes up these fantasy worlds where, you know, everything was copasetic.

And I think what`s particularly damning today was witness after witness from the jail saying she couldn`t have cared less about her parents. She called her mother a bitch. You know, we talk about how people grieve. But no matter how you grieve, you don`t call your dead mother a bitch...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`m taking the soap to your mouth, young lady.

PINTO: Sorry.

GRACE: Speaking about being pampered, here are Sarah Johnson`s plans for when she gets out of jail. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALINDA GONZALEZ, SARAH JOHNSON`S JAILMATE: She said that she did not want to spend her 17th birthday in jail and when she gets out, she`s going to get completely pampered, have massages and stuff like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Massages, pedicures, manicures.

OK, Caryn Stark, we lawyers can`t do this justice. Shrink me.

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Typical antisocial personality, Nancy. Somebody who doesn`t know the difference between right and wrong, who has no conscience. You see that she had a particularly tempestuous relationship with her mother. They say not just a normal child fighting with a mother.

And what is with the dynamics of this family? The father takes her hunting? She watches him shoot over and over again?

GRACE: You know, a lot of people think that -- my father would take to me ball games and drive me around. We`d do things together. I never shot a gun, but I don`t think that`s odd.

STARK: There`s a difference between -- I don`t know, Nancy. There`s a difference between a ball game and taking someone who`s too young to really know the difference between using guns on animals, violence, even being able to handle a gun. That person -- she shouldn`t be around shooting.

GRACE: You know. Good question for Bob Pangburn, Sarah Johnson`s defense lawyer.

Now, listen, I`m giving Bob a hard time. This guy knows his way around the courtroom. As much as I`m torturing him, tried a lot of cases, won a lot of cases. I thought you told me the other night your girl doesn`t know anything about any guns.

PANGBURN: Well, she hardly knows anything about any guns.

GRACE: Oh, so she may know a little something about (gunshot noise)...

PANGBURN: Well, this is Idaho. Everybody knows something about a gun.

PINTO: I don`t know about that. I don`t know about that.

PANGBURN: Sarah took the opportunity to get outdoors with her folks. The witness -- as the state tries to say...

GRACE: Opportunity to get outside and...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Go ahead. Go ahead. We`ll let you speak.

PANGBURN: The state offers evidence -- all right -- that she went hunting and then sat down. And then the next question right out of my mouth, did she take a gun? No.

So, I mean, this is a common theme with this case. They`re trying to make her a murderer because she exaggerates some things and that she may not grieve like other people grieve.

GRACE: You know, so far, you have managed to keep this out of evidence.

Take a listen to this, Geoff Fieger, to a snitch from behind bars recounting what Sarah Johnson said after watching an episode of "Cold Case Files" about blood-spatter evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were watching this video along with Sarah -- and actually I guess it was the television program -- did the defendant turn to you and make any comment?

MALINDA GONZALEZ, SARAH JOHNSON`S JAILMATE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was that comment?

GONZALEZ: She said, "I`m going to get convicted."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Ruh-roh.

Hey, Fieger, I bet you hate it when your client says something like that after watching forensic files or "Cold Case." They go, uh-oh, I`m going to jail.

FIEGER: Yes, well, this is -- first of all, what`s so unusual about this case is that this is a fairly young girl who`s accused of a very brutal crime which is relatively unusual. But these type of statements, I`m not sure why the judge is letting them in.

GRACE: He didn`t let it in yet. Not in yet, Geoff.

FIEGER: Well, and I hope it doesn`t come in. That`s not an admission of anything. And, frankly, a lot of the other suggestions...

GRACE: I don`t know what you`re talking about, Geoff. When I see "Cold Case Files," I don`t think I`m going to get arrested and go to jail. But she did.

FIEGER: Well, maybe she -- well, maybe, but I don`t think it`s an admission of anything.

But another thing is, her demeanor. I have to agree. The fact that she doesn`t respond the way other people think she should respond or think that they would respond to a tragedy is not evidence of guilt. And I don`t really -- I really think it`s far more prejudicial than probative in terms of the standard of proof in this case. That doesn`t prove anything. If she said one thing, she didn`t appear appropriately saddened by her parents` death, how people react to death is not indicative of guilt necessarily.

GRACE: Well, you know what? I`ve heard a lot of defense lawyers argue exactly that. Remember Geragos argued that in Peterson. You see where it got him.

FIEGER: No, I understand that. But this isn`t pervasive, the fact that she was worried about her fingernails or something. That doesn`t really prove anything.

In Geragos`s case, there was tapes of during his wife`s mourning, he`s seducing another woman and lying about where he is. This hardly reaches that level, Nancy. And really, honestly.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I agree with you. I agree with you on that. Very quick response.

PINTO: Well, I think when she said, "When I killed my parents -- oops, I mean when they killed my parents," Geoffrey, to me, that is an admission against penal interest. I think that should come in.

GRACE: And as Fieger pointed out, as Fieger pointed out, that`s not in yet. I`m going to let Lisa detail that for you when we get back.

Bob Pangburn, you got your work cut out for you, buddy.

We`ll all be right back as we finish our analysis of the Sarah Johnson case. That case going down in Idaho right now, 16-year-old on trial for the murder of her mom and dad. It`s hard to even take that in. The mom shot in the head. The dad shot, asleep, the dad shot in the chest coming out of the shower.

This is where they`re sleeping tonight, the Bellevue cemetery.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASSI WEBBER, SARAH JOHNSON`S HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: She told me that her and her mom didn`t get along very well. They argued or didn`t see eye- to-eye on things, I guess.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And how about her dad?

WEBBER: Just that her and her dad were really close and she`d practiced volleyball and stuff with him. And they got along really well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

A tragic, a disturbing, and a heart-wrenching case out of Idaho. Many people believe Idaho is this rural, bucolic, pastoral setting. Then suddenly, bam, a double murder. Then blamed on the daughter of this couple, Alan and Diane Johnson, gunned down in the prime of their lives in their own home. She was asleep in the bed. He was just coming out of the shower when he took a rifle blast to the chest.

Again, welcome back. Very quickly to Anne Bremner. Anne is a veteran trial lawyer standing by with us in California.

Anne, you have handled a lot of juvenile cases, as have Fieger, as have I and Lisa Pinto.

BREMNER: Right.

GRACE: But bottom line, Anne, how hard is it to get a conviction on a teenager, especially a cute, girl teenager?

BREMNER: Well, it`s very difficult, because we want to believe, you know, that children are children, you know, youth is truth, that they don`t do things like this, that they don`t mean to do things like this.

And, you know, we have a very experienced panel, of course, in these types of cases, but I think that there`s just a real reluctance to want to take a child down as an adult.

GRACE: You know, Anne, I don`t know if you can see a monitor. But we just showed Sarah Johnson in court and she was crying. And like, "Eh, eh, eh, and can I get my nails done before the funeral?" Oh, there she goes again.

BREMNER: Yes, I mean, that`s terrible. That`s just terrible, the manicure and pedicure. And that`s going to really go against her.

You know, I was going to say one thing, Nancy. Down here in Santa Maria, we actually have one of Michael Jackson`s fans out here in a pink bathrobe yesterday. So that`s the only connection I can -- when you keep talking about the pink bathrobe in this case, there was one. But it`s in Santa Maria, not Idaho.

GRACE: And apparently, Geoff Fieger, you and Pangburn don`t think that the pedicure, manicure, massage statement means anything. But I can tell you this much: You have got a kid whose parents were just murdered in the house where they were sleeping, and she`s like, "I need a manicure before the funeral."

FIEGER: I understand. But I`ll tell you this: I disagree with your last guest who said it`s difficult to convict children. I represented the youngest child ever charged with murder in the history of the United States, Nate Abraham. And my experience tells me that Americans are so angry about crime and their perception that children or young people commit crime that it`s exactly the opposite.

In fact, when you start charging them as adults, it`s very easy to convict children nowadays unfortunately. And we are punishing younger and younger children, imprisoning younger and younger children. I`m not excusing violence. All I`m suggesting to you, it`s not a great trend in America.

GRACE: Well, there are really no good alternatives, no easy answers in the juvenile justice system. With that much, I`ll agree with you, Geoff Fieger.

Lisa Pinto, you are referring to the slip of the tongue this girl apparently made.

PINTO: Well, there she is housed with an inmate, Malinda Gonzalez, and she says something about, "When I killed my parents -- I mean, when they killed my parents..."

GRACE: "When the killer killed my parents."

PINTO: Not me, not me. And then the snitch says, "Oh, don`t worry" - - ironically -- "I won`t snitch on you." So this is a great statement for the prosecution. And it`s also very plausible, that there they were.

GRACE: It comes in, you`re darn right.

What does it mean, Caryn Stark -- Caryn is a psychologist here in New York -- when you unload and you tell your cell mate all about the murder. And then you say, "But don`t tell anybody. Shh." They always tell.

STARK: They always tell. And this is somebody who can`t keep things to herself. It`s kind of like a Freudian slip. What is a Freudian slip? It`s something where somebody actually makes a slip that speaks the truth. And she keeps speaking the truth.

Also, Nancy, with her demeanor, I think that it`s not just getting her nails done, but she was hugging some relative who came to console her. And then she turned over her shoulder and she said, you know, to her friend, "Go check to see if Bruno is OK."

GRACE: Her boyfriend.

STARK: So then how could that be somebody who is grieving? I mean, her -- I really disagree with Geoffrey. Her behavior is of somebody who has no feelings whatsoever.

GRACE: Very quickly to Bob Pangburn.

Bob, you managed to keep out the Freudian slip, as Caryn Stark just called it. She had been watching this "Cold Case Files," or "CSI," or something with her jail mate and went, "Oh, well, when I killed my parents -- oops, I mean, when that other person killed my parents." You kept that out of evidence, right? How did you do it?

PANGBURN: Well, for one thing, as one of your other guests stated, it simply isn`t relevant to anything in this case. It doesn`t show that -- it doesn`t tend to prove any fact of any relevance.

GRACE: Sounds like a confession to me. It sounds like a confession.

PANGBURN: And this isn`t a -- she`s a 16-year-old girl. She`s in jail. Her parents had been killed. I can`t imagine that she`d have any issues with depression that would cause her to believe that she might get convicted. It had no bearing on this case. It should have stayed out. The judge did a good job of keeping it out.

GRACE: Well, I think the judge was wrong, because I think it was a confession. And this is not a confession that has been forced out of her, or tortured out of her, or tricked out of her. Where was she? Why is she watching TV behind bars, anyway, cable at that?

FIEGER: She has not been convicted of anything, Nancy.

PANGBURN: Precisely.

GRACE: OK, thank you for reminding me of that, Geoff. But she`s still behind bars.

Is that true, Bob, number one? She has cable TV? I have got to pay for that. Have you seen the bills in New York at Time Warner? This girl has cable? She`s talking about a manicure, and a pedicure, and a massage?

PANGBURN: Well, I can guarantee, you would not want to trade places with her when she was in jail in Blaine County. All she had was cable TV.

GRACE: OK, quick question: Before this incident, this girl, Sarah Johnson, 16 years old at the time, made pretty good grades, was on the volleyball team. She got along with her parents. I mean, didn`t like her mom that much, but they got along, right?

PANGBURN: And she loved her dad. That`s a fact that seems to kind of slip by everybody is that, well, yes, she didn`t get along with her mom as well as maybe her mother or her would have liked. However, that`s not unusual for teenage girls. But she loved her dad. Why on Earth would she have shot her dad? It makes no sense. It simply makes no sense.

GRACE: Well, you`re up against a lot of forensic evidence.

Everybody, we are taking a quick break. Panel`s still here, an all- star panel of lawyers and psychologist.

For some of you, local news is next. For the rest of you, we`ll be right back. And remember, I`ll bring you live trial coverage of the Sarah Johnson trial, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." For now, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim, if you know of an injustice, or you know about a case that needs a spotlight, call us, 1-888-GRACE-01, 472- 2301, or e-mail us, Nancygrace@CNN.com.

All of our cases tonight have had such an element of tragedy. I want to say something happy. A big happy birthday to our executive producer out in California. Happy birthday, Wendy.

And to my producer that I fired the other night. She came back. Elizabeth Yusguides, happy birthday, friend.

Oh, is Elizabeth back there in the control room? Hi, Liz. Oh, she`s waving. We took her back. Thank you, dear.

Very quickly, Anne, final thought?

BREMNER: Well, speaking of tragedy, in this case, the Michael Jackson, you know, F. Scott Fitzgerald said, "Show me a hero, and I`ll write you a tragedy." Michael Jackson`s been a hero to so many. And I`m flipping on you, Nancy, here. I`m going defense.

This case has no evidence. There`s a lack of witnesses, physical evidence of any kind. And now we have a witness, the complainant, who has lied in the past -- we`ve heard this now on the news...

GRACE: Right.

BREMNER: ... about his parents. And then there was an unfounded finding and then he recanted. And then his mother turns back around...

GRACE: OK, OK, OK, I get it. You`re telling me credibility problems.

BREMNER: I know, but what I`m telling you right now, Nancy, is this case is -- the tide is turning. And I think, at this point, Michael Jackson, you know, is one of the most vulnerable in our system...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`m glad to hear it, since they haven`t even had opening statements. The tide is turning. OK, point well-taken.

Very quickly, Geoff Fieger, final thought.

FIEGER: Hey, congratulations on your new show.

But these shots of cemeteries and this music, Nancy, I cry uncontrollably during these breaks. So we`ve got to lighten it up.

GRACE: Good. It`ll be the first time years I`ve seen you shed a tear.

FIEGER: We have got to lighten it up.

And believe me, Michael Jackson better be aware that, if at the end he`s convicted, they take him right away. So I`m not sure he`ll be around at the end.

GRACE: Bring your toothbrush, Michael.

And very quickly, to Bob Pangburn, I wanted to come back out to you, but I`ve run out of time. Please join us again. This guy is representing Sarah Johnson in court. And he`s got a tough case, made a lot of scores today in court, keeping out a lot of evidence. I guess I should say congratulations.

See you later, friend.

We are signing off everyone. I want to thank all of my guests. Caryn Stark, Anne Bremner, here in the studio, Lisa Pinto and Geoff Fieger.

My biggest thank you to you for being with us tonight. I`m signing off until tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp here. Good night, friend.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: I`m Erica Hill with your "Prime News Update."

More Iran today -- rain, rather, today in Southern California. That`s adding to an already bad scene in that area, sending houses skidding down hillsides. Floods are washing out roads, even an airport runway. Nine people have been killed. The mayor of Los Angeles is asking the city be declared a federal disaster area.

President Bush continues his European tour in Slovakia after visiting Germany earlier today. He`ll meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin there tomorrow. He`s asking Russia to renew its commitment to democracy.

And New York now ended its efforts to identify remains from the World Trade Center attacks. The city`s medical examiner says it was able to identify 58 percent of the more than 2,700 known victims. The office received fewer than 300 of those bodies intact.

"PRIME NEWS TONIGHT" is straight ahead. We`ve got it all covered for you, including what rocket fuel and breast milk have to do with each other. Stay tuned.

END