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Suspect in BTK Killings in Police Custody; Opening Statements to Start Monday in Jackson Trial
Aired February 25, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: "Bind, Torture, Kill": Last night, we hit the airwaves asking you to help. America`s heartland, a serial killer re- emerges. He`s already claimed the lives of eight people, and now he has resurfaced.
Tonight, breaking news: A suspect is in police custody being questioned even as we speak in connection with the BTK -- bind, torture, kill -- murders. His home, right now, the subject of an intense search pursuant to warrant. We take you there live.
And a jury of 12 is in the box, the jury box. Opening statements kick off Monday morning, 0900, in the Michael Jackson trial.
But first, an all-out alert from the Florida jurisdiction. Jessica Marie Lunsford, she`s just nine years old, stolen from her bedroom while her grandparents slept right down the hall. Florida police have launched a massive manhunt. Tonight, the family of the little nine-year-old girl pleads for her to come home.
Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.
Tonight, urgent news: Jessica Marie Lunsford, she`s just nine years old from Homosassa, Florida. She went to Bible study Wednesday night, was tucked in by her grandmother around 10:00 p.m. Take a look. Jessica then disappeared.
6:00 a.m., her father found her bed empty. The little thing had on no shoes. She was wearing a little pink nightgown. Her family says one of her dollies is missing. Jessica`s father, Mark Lunsford, is with us tonight from Homosassa, Florida.
From San Francisco, victims` rights advocate and crime victim, his little girl went missing. Also with us, Candice DeLong. She`s a profiler and a former FBI agent.
Before we go out to Jessica`s father, here`s the latest from Florida police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY: The sheriff from Hillsborough County, David Gee, called me earlier this afternoon, advised me that they had located a body down there and it may match our girl here.
And, as I say, an emotional roller coaster. We have confirmed that it is not our girl. I repeat, it is not our girl. And for that sake, we`re very happy. Our hearts go out to whoever this little girl`s family is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are waiting to get our hook up to Jessica`s father down in Homosassa, Florida. He`s been begging for her return. Right now, I`m going out to Marc Klaas. Marc lost his little girl many years ago, Polly Klaas.
Marc, what should police be doing right now? And why does every minute count, Marc?
MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, every minute counts for a couple of reasons.
Number one, 74 percent of all children that are murdered as a result of a predatory abduction are murdered within the first three hours. Another way to look at it is that a kidnapper can disappear at the rate of a mile a minute. Therefore, you have to be able to surround that guy as quickly as possible, keep him within the barrier, within the perimeter, so that he can`t get away. Certainly, that`s very important.
I think police are doing an extremely good job. Nancy, when Polly was kidnapped 12 years ago, there was a stipulation on the all-points bulletin that the information was not for press release. You see in this case, however, that as soon as they realized something was gone, they made sure everybody was aware.
Although they didn`t do an Amber Alert, they did a missing child alert for a very good reason. They made sure that there were multiple jurisdictions involved. They brought the dogs in. They brought the helicopters in. They utilized multiple platforms of media to get the word out. They utilized multiple technologies to get the word out.
They stayed totally on top of the case. They are keeping civilians out of the area so that they can keep it pristine and that they can continue to investigate it. They are working with the family. I think they are doing an amazing job.
In fact, I would suggest that they are establishing a new standard of response for predatory abductions right now in Homosassa and that the whole world should be looking at what they are doing and try to duplicate it in the future.
GRACE: We are waiting to be hooked up to Jessica`s father. He has had a very difficult time discussing this. We think we`ll be hooked up to him very shortly. Mark Lunsford will be joining us.
I`m going to quickly go -- you are seeing shots from the area around Jessica`s home. The search is intense. There is a massive manhunt going on right now for the little girl last seen Wednesday night, 10:00 p.m. Take a look. We need your help. What a smile.
I want to quickly go to profiler, former FBI agent, Candice DeLong, as we wait for Jessica`s father to join us.
Candice, this is what I know right now: At first, I immediately suspected a custody issue, and I found out the mom lived in Ohio. I thought, oh, well, the mom wants the kid, she`s gone and taken her in the middle of the night, and the kid went with her willingly. That`s why nobody heard anything.
Wrong. They found the mom minding her own business up in Ohio, no problem. Here`s the kicker, Candice: No forced entry. Girl, no shoes, gown, abductor let her take her favorite doll. What does it mean?
CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, it could mean that it was someone that she knew and was comfortable with. And it also could mean that the intruder put his hand over her mouth preventing her from screaming as he quickly carried her out. We just really don`t know. Sadly, most children that are taken and assaulted, the person that did it was known to the child.
GRACE: Do you think that`s the case here, Candice?
DELONG: Hard to say at this point with my lack of knowledge of what`s going on, but it does -- I do think it`s significant that there was no forced entry. Someone apparently felt comfortable enough to go in that home in the middle of the night.
Whoever went in, you can count on the fact that they knew there were two adults sleeping in that home as well as the intended victim. And they still felt comfortable enough in going right in and taking that child out. And they were successful in doing so. That tells me possibly they`d been in the house before.
GRACE: And Marc Klaas, this must remind you horribly of Polly`s disappearance. Almost the same thing.
KLAAS: Well, except that Polly was kidnapped in front of witnesses. Don`t forget that.
GRACE: Right, but in the home, in a home.
KLAAS: Well, absolutely. And there have been other cases like that. Don`t forget Danielle van Dam. Don`t forget Elizabeth Smart. And certainly don`t forget the fact that Elizabeth Smart came home alive. So we always have to keep hope that we will recover these children. But, of course, there`s nothing more brazen. And you certainly can`t underestimate the determination of a predator.
GRACE: Take a listen to what the sheriff had to say today, Marc.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAWSY: We are turning every rock that we can turn and following every lead we can possibly follow. But we have not received anything of any credible information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Marc, we heard earlier that a body had turned up. Something told me it wasn`t Jessica. It was not Jessica. But that right there, another body turns up.
Marc, this is a town of only 2,300 people. This is Homosassa, Florida. It`s about 80 miles west of Orlando, very small community.
Now, Candice, what does that add to the mix? Small community, 2,300 people. This is not, you know, out on the street in New York City. This isn`t Chicago or L.A. where crimes go down on the street every day.
DELONG: Well, it certainly concerns me that we didn`t even hear a report of another missing little girl. I don`t know if we know for a fact that the other body found is that of a child. If it is, I`m certainly concerned. The likelihood that two little girls would be taken and one killed in the same small community and it be different offenders is highly unlikely.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, another issue in this case is that this little girl -- Elizabeth, could you show Jessica`s picture again please? This nine-year-old little girl has never run away, has never gone missing, has never stayed away from home any longer than she was supposed to, you know, visiting little friends, going on school activities. She has absolutely no history of being gone. What does that add to the mix in your mind, Marc?
KLAAS: Well, it does a couple of things.
First of all, I have it on very good authority that the other body that was found in Hillsborough County is a female between 18- and 24-years old, although she did look younger.
But, obviously, you know, this child has been the victim of a terrible crime. There`s absolutely no question about this at all. We now have to focus and find out who that perpetrator is and bring that little girl home as quickly as possible.
GRACE: You know, Marc, as we go to break, I want to ask you again regarding the stats. As each hour passes, what does it mean in a case like this?
KLAAS: Just have to bring these kids home quickly because, generally, these kids are taken by psychopaths, by pedophiles, by individuals who are concerned about nothing more than their instant gratification and then getting rid of the evidence so that they can continue to pursue those goals.
GRACE: You know, when you think, Marc, Candice, we`ve seen Danielle van Dam, Carly Bruschia, Polly, a rash of little girls taken, Samantha Runion, and killed within the first 72 hours. As we go to break, we`re showing you a live shot of a vigil at little Jessica`s home.
Stay with us.
GRACE: "Bind, Torture, Kill," the BTK killer is back. Last night, we took to the airwaves asking you to help with John Walsh.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN WALSH, "AMERICA`S MOST WANTED": This is him coming out after 30 years and saying, "I`m not as famous as Ted Bundy. I`m not as famous as the Hillside Strangler. I want my 15 minutes of shame, 15 minutes of infamy, and he is absolutely torturing this community and absolutely breaking the hearts of the victims` families."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, a possible break: CNN affiliate KAKE reports a "person of interest" in custody for questioning. Tonight, a search of the person`s home being conducted as we speak. This is a live search of what`s going down.
With us, FBI agent and profiler Candice DeLong, defense attorneys Daniel Horowitz and Ed Sapone, prosecutor Deborah Robinson.
Let`s get right down to it. Ed Sapone, what does it mean?
ED SAPONE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think this person should not say anything to the authorities. In this country, we have a Fifth Amendment...
GRACE: OK, hold on. Hold on, Ed.
SAPONE: ... and we should exercise that.
GRACE: I`m going to come back to you before you start preaching the Fifth Amendment. I`m talking about "person of interest." You have got eight dead bodies.
Suddenly, 20 years later, Candice DeLong, somebody sends police the victim`s driver`s license from 20 years ago. We got a guy in custody as a person of interest. What is a person of interest?
SAPONE: A person we want to arrest.
GRACE: Candice DeLong?
DELONG: Well, it actually seems to be a new term that...
GRACE: I heard it in Peterson.
DELONG: Right. The first time I heard it was after the Richard Jewell fiasco in the Atlanta bombings many, many years ago.
GRACE: Yes, that stunk.
The fact that they have been issued an arrest warrant, I think, is very significant. When we arrested the Unabomber, or when we searched his cabin, we only had a search warrant and were hoping to find something in the cabin that we could eventually arrest him, which, of course, we all know what happened there.
In this case, they actually were issued an arrest warrant. And that gives me hope that they have very good reason to believe this individual may very well have committed the crimes and be BTK.
GRACE: You know, out to Daniel Horowitz.
Daniel Horowitz, what we`ve learned so far -- and these are reports, they`re flying -- we understand the person in custody that`s being questioned -- he has not been formally charged -- is married, has a family, 59-years-old, and is gainfully employed with a, quote, "ordinary job." What do you think, Daniel?
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I think they`ve got him. Remember back in December they had the wrong person. But I thought then, and I think now, that the BTK killer purposely led the police to the wrong guy. He probably left some clues. It wasn`t just a random person, probably somebody...
GRACE: He`s smart.
HOROWITZ: ... within BTK`s sphere of influence and friends. You know, this is a strange serial killer, Nancy. He can act normally. And in his missives to the press, he talks about trying to control this demon within him. He`s really, truly a split between that killing psychotic and a normal person.
GRACE: You know, when you just said those words, "demon within him," Candice DeLong, this guy has been begging cops to find him. Describe for the viewers the missives he has been sending, not only to police, but to radio and TV stations.
DELONG: Well, since the beginning when -- actually in the `70s, when he initially was committing these crimes, he started taunting the police, communicating with them, giving them information proving that the person that was sending them the information was, in fact, the person that committed the crimes.
Then he goes underground for several years and then re-emerges with all this communication, although not claiming any recent crimes, sending them the driver`s license of the woman he supposedly killed in 1985.
I have to say, the age, 59, in my mind -- and we studied this case when I was in profiling school 20 years ago -- 59 to 62, 63, perfect age when a figure of...
GRACE: For what? Perfect age for what?
DELONG: What the profile was then...
DELONG: ... for the age of the person, for how old he would be right now, late 50s, early 60s.
GRACE: Got you.
DELONG: Fits perfectly.
GRACE: Quickly to Ed Sapone, before we get to the trial, OK, before you jump ahead to what he should do at trial, tell me, this guy right now is just a person of interest. Can he walk out of the police station if he wants to?
SAPONE: Absolutely not. I mean, the police have him in there for questioning. He has a choice, either submit to the questioning or not. But I can tell you this, Nancy, there`s an arrest warrant. There`s probable cause for this individual. He`s not going anywhere anytime soon.
GRACE: OK. According to Ed Sapone, the guy cannot just get up and leave. To me, that sounds like he`s under arrest, sounds like he is the target. But tonight police are only saying that he is a "person of interest." Remember, they said that about Scott Peterson, too, and he just got sentenced to the death penalty.
I want to tell you that Jessica`s father has now been hooked up. He`s ready to speak. We`re going to come right back to Jessica Lunsford`s father down in Florida.
But very quickly as we go to break, "Trial Tracking": The 16-year-old girl, Sarah Johnson, remember her, the Idaho girl on trial for her parents` double murder? Well, today in court, a crime scene expert explained the mom and dad`s blood spatter.
GRACE: Jessica Lunsford, nine years old, went missing Wednesday night sometime after 10:00 p.m. when her grandmother tucked her into bed. 6:00 a.m., her father came into her bedroom, discovered the bed empty. Last seen in a little pink nightgown, no shoes. Her favorite dolly is missing. Please take a look, out of Homosassa, Florida.
Welcome back, everyone. With us right now a very special guest, now hooked up down in Homosassa, Mark Lunsford, Jessica`s father is with us.
Sir, thank you for being with us.
MARK LUNSFORD, FATHER OF MISSING GIRL: Thank you for doing this for me.
GRACE: Sir, what can you tell us? When you went into that bedroom, what was your first thought when you saw that empty bed?
LUNSFORD: My first thought was that maybe she just got up and went and got in bed with Grandma and Grandpa. And when I went to their bedroom door, I woke them up and I said, "Hey, is Jessie in here with you? And they are like, `No. Well, maybe she`s laying on the floor next to her bed.`"
And so then that`s when I began to -- you know, I searched her bedroom, under the bed, the closets, my room, the bathroom, you know, bathroom being in the shower, you know. I checked the sliding glass doors to see if they were locked. Everything was locked up.
I then went to the living room and checked the living-room door, and the living room door was -- when I reached for the doorknob and I pulled on the door, it was open. The screen door was unlocked. And these are doors that we keep locked. At that time, that`s when I instructed my mom to call 911.
GRACE: Gosh. What are police telling you tonight, sir?
LUNSFORD: Right now, I don`t know much more than anybody else other than that they don`t have any suspects and stuff like that. I mean, the best source of information about the investigation would be through the sheriff`s department. Because, like I said, I mean, I haven`t seen -- I haven`t watched any TV. I`ve just been out, you know, looking, putting out fliers, just, you know, trying to do what I can.
GRACE: Sir, have they brought in tracker dogs?
LUNSFORD: Oh, yes, ma`am. That was the very first day, within the first few hours of the search, they were there with dogs, first, the canines from the Citrus County and then they brought bloodhounds in from, I believe, Sumter County.
These people are just -- it`s just an immaculate job that they`ve been doing. Everything has been moving so fast. I`ve got family in Ohio, North Carolina. And, I mean, they called me yesterday and they had already heard about it on the news. And, I mean, and that`s really what I need.
GRACE: Sir, tell me what you can tell me about her. How do you know she`s not wearing any shoes?
LUNSFORD: Well, she was put in bed. And all of her clothes, you know, are here, all of her clothes. Her shoes, her clothes, everything is here, other than what she had on when she went to bed.
GRACE: And you are sure her doll is missing?
LUNSFORD: Oh, yes. We went to the state fair. And I won her a hat and a stuffed purple dolphin. And the hat is still here, but the dolphin is gone. And that`s what she was sleeping with since we`ve been to the fair. She would take her dolphin to bed with her.
GRACE: When was that, back in October?
LUNSFORD: No, ma`am, it was just last Sunday.
GRACE: So she was sleeping with that and that`s gone?
GRACE: Now, I understand there was no forced entry, right?
LUNSFORD: Right. That`s what the police have been telling me, that they can`t find any forced entry. But, like I said, you know, as far as -- I mean, as far as the investigation, they are the best source for your information.
GRACE: Are your friends and neighbors helping with the search? Is the whole community mobilized?
LUNSFORD: Is the whole community? I believe the whole state is helping me. You know, how much support I`ve been getting from people that -- I have never seen them before in my life, and they walk up to me, and they tell me they are praying, and that they are here to help.
GRACE: Sir, I know the last thing she said was to her grandmother when she tucked her in. She said, "I love you." Do you have a gut feeling as to who took her, where she is tonight? Do you have any theory even?
LUNSFORD: I can`t imagine. I don`t have a clue. I mean, I sit around, and I haven`t slept in two days. I can`t eat. I just -- I don`t know who -- I just don`t know. I don`t have any idea.
We don`t socialize with a lot of people. We don`t have a lot of people at the house. We don`t have any people at the house other than the people that she might go to church with on a Wednesday night or on Sunday. And these are the only people that come around. Other than that, there`s nobody around.
GRACE: Mr. Lunsford, is there anything else you want to say tonight?
LUNSFORD: I just want to keep asking that everybody please help. I can`t get her back if you don`t help. And, I mean, there`s somebody out there that knows something. And if you don`t tell anybody, then you are just making my chances smaller. I have to have your help.
GRACE: Mr. Lunsford, thank you for being with us.
LUNSFORD: Thank you.
GRACE: Yes, sir.
As we go out, please, can we show another shot of little Jessica?
Everyone, stay with us.
SOPHIA CHOI, CNN HOST: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi with your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
Less than three weeks after Israel and the Palestinian Authority agreed to a cease-fire, a suicide bombing outside a Tel Aviv nightclub. Four people were killed and at least 65 others were injured. The group Islamic Jihad claims responsibility.
Barring an appeal, Terri Schiavo`s feeding tube will be removed in three weeks. That`s the ruling of a Florida judge who says he was uncomfortable granting another delay in the 15-year legal battle.
An attempt to cut costs has U.S. Airways grounding 11 planes and cutting even more routes. This is the first time the airline has shrunk its primary fleet since it went bankrupt in September.
And last-minute Oscar preps are going on in Hollywood. The head of the Academy says he is worried about rain and whether the show will end on time. This Sunday`s Oscars have landed a TV-14 language rating and will have a seven-second delay.
That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: I love my community, and I have great faith in our justice system. Please keep an open mind and let me have my day in court. I deserve a fair trial like every other American citizen. I will be acquitted, and vindicated when the truth is told. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A potential juror in the Michael Jackson case, we only know her as Caroline, was dismissed and she`s speaking out about Jackson jury selection.
With us tonight, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez- Mitchell, from San Francisco, defense attorney, Daniel Horowitz, in Philadelphia, prosecutor Deborah Robinson, in New York, defense attorney Ed Sapone. Also with us, psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig. And still with us, victims` rights advocate Marc Klaas.
Hey, guys, you know Sunday night is the Oscars. And I understand Michael Jackson has his speech ready. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I would like to thank the fans around the world for your love and your support from every corner of the earth, my family, who has been very supportive, my brother, Randy, who has been incredible. I want to thank the community of Santa Maria. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It was beautiful. Oh, oh, that was for his child molestation trial, not his Oscar.
OK, very quickly out to Daniel Horowitz.
Daniel Horowitz, how do you strike this jury? What do you think of the 12 in the box?
HOROWITZ: Nancy, it`s not a fair jury.
GRACE: Oh, good lord.
HOROWITZ: And it`s not fair to society...
GRACE: Right off the bat, it`s not fair. OK, why is it not fair?
HOROWITZ: Because the only people who can sit on a jury for these many months are retired white people or retired -- or civil servants who don`t want to work their regular jobs. We as a society and Michael Jackson are entitled to a cross-section.
You know why the prosecution likes this jury, Nancy? Because they have 12 of almost the same person again and again, so it`s easy to get a unanimous jury. We want diversity in this society. We don`t have it.
GRACE: OK, I got it. I got it. I got it. It`s all unfair. Thank you, Daniel. I`m shocked at your answer.
Deborah Robinson, former prosecutor, what about the 12 in the box?
DEBORAH ROBINSON, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Look, I think it`s a very fair jury. What he`s saying is he`s saying that black people can`t be fair. That`s not true here. They are not giving them any credit. Look, they work. African-Americans have morals. They know right from wrong. And for that matter, nobody can really identify with Michael Jackson.
GRACE: Well, the other issue, well, if he`s going to act like this -- take a look at that, Deborah. I call that the horn shot. That was during the Tommy Mottola debacle. Remember that lawsuit?
But back to the jury, either side didn`t use up their jury strikes. They hardly touched the jury strikes.
So, Deborah, if the defense didn`t like this jury, they could have kept striking until they get to the back row. They wanted this jury.
ROBINSON: I totally agree with you. They picked the jury. They thought this jury was fair and impartial. They picked the jury. This is a fair jury.
GRACE: Very quickly, Ed Sapone, in this case, do you think the similar transactions are going to be ruled in by Judge Melville? Everybody -- oh, there you go. There`s a shot. We`re going to talk about courtroom attire in a few moments.
But right now, down to the nitty-gritty, when I say similar transactions, I`m talking about the young accuser from 1993, $20 million settlement. A couple of years later, a $2 million settlement, same type of fondling claims. Will the jury ever hear about it, Ed Sapone?
SAPONE: Well, there has to be a sufficient nexus, Nancy, between the prior conduct and the charged crime now, the crime that`s charged now. In practice, and that`s not the theory that I just told you, usually what judges do is they compromise. Some come in and some stay out.
GRACE: Well, here we`ve got two. I don`t see how one is going to come in and the other out. I don`t think we`re going to have a split-the- baby here.
SAPONE: Yes, there has got to be a sufficient nexus, in other words, a common scheme, or plan, or it shows identity, or knowledge, or something of that sort.
GRACE: Well, Ed, Ed, forget all that legal theory. I want to know, do you think these will come in or not? I think they will.
SAPONE: Yes, I think they will, too, because there is a commonality between...
GRACE: You know, they`re all three of the same age, the same general physical description, the same M.O....
SAPONE: The same allegations.
GRACE: ... modus operandi within a 10-year period of time. They all identify Michael Jackson. It all took place while he was alone, the family having been sent away. There are a million similarities and Melville, he`s a tough nut to crack, the judge.
SAPONE: Yes, it seems like under the common scheme or plan theory they would come in.
GRACE: Very quickly, to Robi Ludwig. Right now, I believe public sentiment is still on Michael Jackson`s side.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree with you.
GRACE: Nobody wants to believe he would do this. They would rather believe this family is on the take.
LUDWIG: And there`s a lot of information about this family that would suggest that. The mother is not entirely credible. This boy was a very sick boy. The family initiated contact with Michael Jackson.
GRACE: The kid had cancer.
LUDWIG: Yes, but he was the one the family initiated the contact with Michael Jackson. It wasn`t like Michael Jackson weaseled his way into this family and seduced them. So there`s a lot to be suspicious about.
And I think every time that Michael Jackson comes off -- now, granted, we know that he`s bizarre and looks different. But he comes off as fairly well in terms of being appropriate.
LUDWIG: Yes, in terms of being...
GRACE: Wait, I`ve got to go to Jane Velez-Mitchell.
Jane, let`s talk about appropriateness in court and bring me up to date, friend.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, CELEBRITY JUSTICE: Well, maybe for Michael Jackson he`s being appropriate. But he`s not being appropriate, perhaps, for the 12 average folk who are sitting there and going to judge him. He wears these wild outfits. He wears regal insignia. He is a king in his own mind, certainly. And so we have to wonder, how are these salt-of-the- earth jurors going to react to all of that?
I keep waiting for Michael Jackson to do something really crazy, like cut his hair and put on a blue pinstripe suit and a white shirt and walk into court. Now, that would be a real shocker for the media.
But, boy, wouldn`t it be a smart way to approach these jurors?
GRACE: Yes, but wouldn`t it be odd to see Michael Jackson dressed like the rest of us? That would totally freak me out. That would be totally out of character.
Hey, Jane, tell me about what`s going down in the courtroom. What do you think about this jury?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to say, I heard someone say, you know, this jury is a mystery, kind of scratching their heads. And I would have to agree. Because the judge limited the questioning by each attorney to each juror to 10 minutes, we only got really a cursory look at them.
Oh, yes, we know they all hate the media pretty much. But that`s to be expected. We know they`ve all heard Michael Jackson`s music and one of them`s been to Neverland as a child.
But we don`t really know some of the more nuanced issues, like how do they feel about alcoholism consumptions? Are any of them in recovery, for example? There`s so much that we don`t know about them and their attitudes. And that`s because the judge put a very strict time limit on the amount of time that these lawyers had.
GRACE: But, Jane, they had to answer essay questions on the questionnaire. That thing was huge. And it talks about alcohol. It talks about their histories, their past. It`s a very intensive questionnaire. So why would the judge...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I have to tell you, questions are one thing on a piece of paper.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But getting a real sense of how people feel, for example, about a teenager drinking wine, I didn`t get a sense. If you asked me, how do those people feel about that? I`d say, yes, well, maybe the ex-math teacher and the civil engineer might frown on that, but that would be a wild guess on my part.
I don`t get a sense of those people as human beings. Now, the juror who was dismissed, the angry one who attacked and said, "This is not a jury of Michael Jackson`s peers." I know who she is. I know how she would vote, but I don`t have a sense of how these others are going to go.
GRACE: So it looks like the state did the right thing in booting her, right?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I would say. I mean, she literally gave a speech in the courtroom and looked at Ron Zonen, one of the prosecutors, and said, "This is a jury of Michael Jackson`s peers? Look around you. What do you see? You don`t see people of diversity."
And I have to tell you, it was a great speech. But if she really wanted to have an impact on this case, maybe she should have zipped her lip and not said any of that and tried to be a stealth juror. She definitely wasn`t a stealth juror.
GRACE: No way. At most, she would have been an alternate in any event.
Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice" is with us at the courthouse. We`ll be right back with not only her and Marc Klaas but the rest of the panel.
As you know, we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve un- solved homicides, find missing people. And tonight, please, take a look at Sofia Hernandez from Sacramento, California. Sofia Hernandez, ten-years- old, missing since 1997. Any information on Sofia, please call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-THE-LOST.
GRACE: Before we go back to the Jackson case, take another look at Jessica Lunsford. She`s just nine-years-old. She`s missing out of Homosassa, Florida as of Wednesday night, 10:00 p.m. She is wearing a pink nightgown, no shoes, and has a dolly with her. She`s only 70 pounds, four feet tall.
Right now, back to the Michael Jackson trial.
First of all, we all know Michael Jackson has been very, very sick with flu-like symptoms. In fact, jury selection screeched to a halt last week and all the people that were losing money by being off work for jury selection got to go home early.
He went to the hospital. And here`s a shot of Michael Jackson in the hospital.
Elizabeth, can you pull me up my teddy-bear shot, please? OK, this is what we heard from Michael Jackson behind hospital walls. Now, I don`t know -- oh, no, he`s waving.
Hi, Michael. Hi, you feeling better? OK, peace, peace, right back at you. OK, is this reminding anybody of another event?
Elizabeth, you know what I`m talking about. Roll the footage, girl. Michael Jackson, let`s see, when was this, about a year ago? It`s coming, Elizabeth says. Remember -- oh, there we go. Thank you, dear. Here we go.
Hi, everybody. Meet my new baby. No, catch my new baby. Ow, ow, please don`t kick like that. OK, what is with him?
Jane Velez-Mitchell, what is with him and windows?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... they are looking at that demonstration where he put out a sign, he put out a teddy bear, he put out his hand, did the peace sign. And it was encouraging these fans to yell. And they were screaming, "I love you, Michael. Come out, Michael."
But there were people who were hospitalized there who were coming out -- their relatives were coming out and saying, "Shut up, please. There are people who are ill here." And now we know that there`s this family that is absolutely outraged.
GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute, Jane. "I love more." That makes it all OK. Here`s a sign he held out.
Now, Marc Klaas, we also know that, while doctors were taking care -- staff taking care of Jackson`s flu-like symptoms, a lady in the hospital died of a heart attack while he`s holding the teddy bear out the window. Marc, as a victims` rights advocate, you have got to be standing on your head.
KLAAS: Well, it`s absolutely outrageous that they would subordinate her right to live and her right to have fair treatment so that this guy can have the bigger room and be given the aspirin, or whatever that he needs in his very needy kind of way.
I, too, would be outraged. It`s just unbelievable that, in fact, this woman ultimately suffered two more heart attacks almost immediately and died without even having her family around her because they weren`t able to all fit into the tiny little room. I completely understand why they are taking the actions that they are taking.
GRACE: Man, oh, Manischewitz, I hope the jury never finds out about this debacle because, you know, Deborah Robinson, stories like this -- I don`t know. They already know so much about Michael Jackson, Deborah. Can anything else make a difference?
ROBINSON: You know, they know a lot about Michael. And I don`t think anything else can make a difference, especially since the defense is playing that celebrity card. They are already working on the jurors right now.
GRACE: Question: We know, or we have heard, that there`s DNA evidence, Deborah. What do you think it is?
ROBINSON: You know, it could be DNA evidence on a piece of clothing. We know that DNA evidence lasts on clothing. And maybe when they did the warrants and they went to Neverland they got some clothing.
GRACE: You know, it`s really hard to fight DNA evidence, Dr. Robi Ludwig. Robi is with us. She`s a psychologist here in New York.
When you have hard DNA evidence -- this can be blood, sperm, saliva. We know his mattress was ripped up and taken by cops. We know underwear was taken by cops. How will celebrity stand up to some hard DNA evidence?
LUDWIG: Well, I suppose you can always poke holes in how the tests were done. So you could say, "Well, you know, this wasn`t an accurate reflection of what really happened." That`s a long shot. I mean, you and I both know -- no, you and I both know, that when there`s DNA evidence that points in the direction...
GRACE: It`s over.
LUDWIG: ... really, it really is over.
GRACE: But how does celebrity play in?
LUDWIG: Well, you know, people are really hard to give up their image of a person. And everybody feels like they know Michael Jackson, from the time he was a little child.
GRACE: I mean, look at Kobe Bryant, Jayson Williams, O.J. Simpson, Robert Blake`s got a good crack at walking.
LUDWIG: Right. I mean, in some cases, we feel like we know the celebrities better than we know our neighbors, and, in some cases, that appears to be true.
GRACE: We do.
LUDWIG: Right. But, again, it`s a presentation of who they are.
GRACE: I mean, really, you live a high-rise right?
GRACE: Do you know all of your neighbors?
LUDWIG: I don`t. I don`t know all of my neighbors. And I don`t have the time in my schedule to really gab with people. So here most people have the experience of knowing Michael from the time he was a child.
GRACE: Seeing him grow up.
LUDWIG: And, again, he seems -- seeing him grow up. And he presents a somewhat sweet and caring, whether that`s true or not. We don`t know the truth. And that`s why it`s going to be so important what goes on in this courtroom.
GRACE: But, Daniel Horowitz, the reality is, yes, he appears to be sweet and caring. That may be true. There`s no doubt in my mind -- Daniel, this guy has given millions of dollars to charity. He genuinely does care for other people. He has tried to help children. But what about the hard facts, if they come in, of three separate little boys, separated in time and space, all saying the same molestation story, Daniel?
HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, I agree with you. On national television, it hurts to do so.
But he is a kind person. He does give a lot to people. And maybe he has a slight perversion towards children. But I don`t think so. And here`s why.
There should be dozens of kids coming forward saying, "I`ve been molested by Michael Jackson." The police leaked the transcripts of the grand jury. People have a script. All they have to do is say, "I`ve been to Neverland," and prove it, and then read from that script as if it really happened. And they can then sue Michael Jackson.
The absence of these complaining witnesses, just these very few, tells me that they are all money-oriented. He`s strange. He`s very, very strange...
GRACE: I don`t know what you are talking about, absence of them.
HOROWITZ: He`s vulnerable. He`s vulnerable.
GRACE: Hold on. Stop. When you are saying absence of witnesses, if the prosecution tries to put up similar transactions, the other acts, the witnesses will have to come to court. There`s not going to be any witness absence.
But hold that thought, Daniel.
Ed Sapone, we`re talking about all of his good works, his charity works. We`re very familiar with them. But will the defense risk bringing that into trial before this jury? Because if they do, you know what happens.
SAPONE: The last thing the defense wants to do here is put his character in issue. Because what will happen is that the big old door, Nancy, will be swung wide open and then anything this man has ever done to show the world that maybe his character isn`t so good would come right into the trial.
GRACE: In other words, Ed, if the defense dares to bring in good character under the law, that is when the state can come back with bad character?
SAPONE: With specific instances of bad character via witnesses.
GRACE: I also think that Melville will allow in the other similar transactions. He`s tried a lot of cases.
We`re talking about Judge Melville who is running this trial. The jury selection went incredibly quickly for California, especially.
Quick break, everybody, and a very quick "Trial Tracking" on, guess who, Scott Peterson. Timing is everything, and in this case, it`s all about delay, delay, delay. Judge Alfred Delucchi pushed back formal sentencing until March 16th. Why? Defense scheduling problems. Hi, Mark Geragos. Hi, Scott Peterson.
In December, the jury recommended the death penalty for the murders of Peterson`s wife, Laci, and Connor, their unborn son.
Some of you are heading to local news. We will be right back. And reminder: I`ll bring you live coverage of the Sarah Johnson double-murder trial, Monday, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Stay with us.
GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, if you know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, please call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472-2301. Or visit our Web site at CNN.com/Nancygrace.
Man, what a week in America`s courtrooms. Before we say good night, we here at NANCY GRACE ask you to remember some very special people who have touched all of our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Do you think David Temple murdered your daughter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe David Temple killed her.
GRACE: Breaking news tonight: A pregnant Fort Worth mother and her seven-year-old boy went missing two days ago.
LT. GENE JONES, FORT WORTH POLICE DEPT.: A makeshift grave has been located.
GRACE: Tell us about Jayden.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was just like any other normal seven-year-old boy, just did the regular things that a young boy would do.
JONES: We were motivated by these two individuals. This is what drove us.
GRACE: This is where Lisa Underwood and her little boy -- can you imagine -- seven-years-old, left out here in a soggy, shallow grave. Friends and family made this makeshift memorial. That`s what`s left of Lisa tonight.
Bam, a double murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told me that her and her mom didn`t get along very well.
GRACE: Alan and Diane Johnson, gunned down in the prime of their lives in their own home. She was asleep in the bed. He was just coming out of the shower when he took a rifle blast to the chest. This is where they`re sleeping tonight, the Bellevue cemetery.
Can you help us? Tonight, we are looking at pictures of a nine-year- old little girl. Are you are sure her doll is missing?
LUNSFORD: Oh, yes. We went to the state fair. And I won her a hat and a stuffed dolphin, a purple dolphin. And the hat is still here, but the dolphin is gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: This is no soap opera. These are real people finding themselves in our justice system.
I`m signing off for tonight. Thank you for being with us and inviting us into your home.
Coming up, the latest headlines from around the world. I`ll see you here Monday night, 8:00 p.m. sharp on NANCY GRACE.
Until then, good night, friend.