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Lou Dobbs Tonight

Lebanese Prime Minister Resigns Under Pressure; Customs Official: Not all Illegals Can Be Stopped

Aired February 28, 2005 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the Ten Commandments back in the news. The state of Texas is fighting to keep the Ten Commandments at the state capitol. The Texas attorney general is our guest tonight.
Medicine's dirty secret. Nearly millions of Americans die every year from preventable infections in our hospitals, and you won't believe who and what is to blame.

Assault on our middle class. The biggest decline in personal income in a decade. And there may be even worse shocks ahead for middle class families.

And tonight, our special report, "Broken Borders," an astonishing admission for the man responsible for controlling our borders. My guest tonight is the governor of one of the states on the front line of the battle against illegal aliens.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS for news, debate and opinion tonight.

DOBBS: Good evening.

A major step forward for President Bush's vision of democracy in the Middle East today, and a tremendous setback for Syria. The Syrian-backed government of Lebanon has abruptly resigned, the resignation coming after tens of thousands of demonstrators marched outside the Lebanese parliament.

Brent Sadler is outside the Lebanese parliament with the latest on this rapidly developing story. John King is at the White House, where President Bush is closely watching these developments.

We go first to Brent Sadler in Beirut -- Brent.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Lou.

This is the end of a day on which the Lebanese government hoped to ban popular protests, but in the event, demonstrators circumvented the ban, the security forces stepped back and the government resigned.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER (voice-over): A drumbeat of much hoped for democratic change here sweeps through the capital. Renewed demands on Syria to break its hold on Lebanon, with crowds chanting anti-Syrian slogans, aimed at Syria's army and intelligence network, still embedded here. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that this is the beginning. I hope it never, ever, I hope it never fades away. Because it should not ever fade away because finally we as Lebanese decide what to do with our country and our people!

SADLER: The opposition's night of triumph followed a day of defiance. Protesters marching under what they call a banner of freedom from Syrian control.

Government attempts failed to stop the rally. Lebanese security forces reluctant, it seems, to enforce a ban. Flower power winning the day.

A possible turning point, say protest leaders, in a crucial test of wills, challenging the influence of Syria in Lebanon.

CAMILLE CHAMOUN, NATIONAL LIBERAL PARTY: The Syrian people are not our enemies. The Syrian government is, because there's no democracy there.

SADLER: The opposition claims to have won this round in their struggle with Syria, but insist protests will not end here. They still have to deal with a staunchly pro-Syrian president, who holds the power to make crucial decisions.

They still have to deal with a staunchly pro-Syrian president, who holds the power to make crucial decisions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER: The opposition says it now wants to form a government of national unity, or at least a neutral government, one that can eventually help negotiate a peaceful and honorable withdrawal, they say, of Syrian forces from Lebanon -- Lou.

DOBBS: Brent, thank you very much. Brent Sadler from Beirut.

The White House today said Lebanon now has an opportunity to elect a truly representative government, free of foreign government interference.

Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, as it applauded those protests and applauded the decision by the Syrian-backed government to resign, the White House strategy was very clear as this all unfolds over the next several days: keep the pressure on Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The White House applauded the resignation of Lebanon's Syrian-backed government as the latest in what it views as a series of positive changes in the Middle East.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We are fully committed to supporting free and fair elections that would be free from outside interference.

KING: Monday's deadly car bombing in Baghdad and Friday's suicide bombing in Tel Aviv are reminders apparent progress in the Middle East is too often troubled by turmoil and violence.

By any standards, the past two months have been remarkable.

THEODORE KATTOUF, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SYRIA: I think what we're seeing, perhaps, if it's not too grandiose a term, is a second Arab awakening.

KING: The Palestinians elected new leadership. And President Mahmoud Abbas promises to improve security and seek peace with Israel.

Iraqis voted by the millions, despite threats from insurgents.

Saudi Arabia held municipal elections and says women might get to vote in the next round.

And Egypt's leader promised Saturday to amend the constitution and allow multi-candidate presidential elections.

Mr. Bush long has suggested voting in Iraq would serve as a model for the region. But even critics of the war suggests the president deserves a share of the credit.

AARON MILLER, PRESIDENT, SEEDS OF PEACE: I wouldn't expect a series of rising democracies or falling dominoes, if you will, anytime soon. This is going to be a long and probably traumatic process, but something important has been set into motion.

KING: Saddam Hussein's half-brother was captured in Syria over the weekend and turned over to Iraqi authorities, but the White House brushed aside suggestions Syria is perhaps trying to repair strained relations and repeated its demand that Syria troops and intelligence services immediately leave Lebanon.

MCCLELLAN: And we will see by their actions if they're committed to changing their behavior.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Freedom is on the march is how the White House press secretary put it earlier today, when asked about the dramatic day in Lebanon, other recent political changes across the Middle East.

But Lou, there also is no shortage of caution here. As one official put it, it is, without a doubt, a hopeful period, he said, but history teaches you not to get too hopeful -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you very much. Senior White House correspondent John King.

Today's bomb attack in Iraq, the most deadly since the fall of Saddam Hussein nearly two years ago. A suicide car bomber blasted a crowd of police recruits in the town of Hillah, 60 miles south of Baghdad. There were 125 Iraqis were killed in the explosion, more than 150 others wounded.

The police recruits were waiting in line for medical examinations outside a government clinic. The blast was so powerful it destroyed nearly all of the suicide bomber's car, the bombing the latest in the series of escalating attacks against Iraqi police and troops.

Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq may be considering launching terrorist attacks inside the United States. U.S. officials say the information was intercepted from a recent communication between Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenant in Iraq, Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

Those officials say there is nothing in that information to indicate, however, when, where, or how an attack might be carried out. One official told CNN the information is a reaffirmation of al Qaeda's goal to target the United States.

The U.S. customs and border protection commissioner is preparing to unveil a new strategy that would tighten security at our borders. You might believe that his goal is to stop all illegal aliens from entering the country, but in point of fact, the commission says that closing the entire boarder to illegal aliens is, in his words, simply unachievable.

Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert Bonner often speaks about gaining what he calls operational control of the border. We asked him what that means.

ROBERT BONNER, CBP COMMISSIONER: "Operational control," first of all, it doesn't mean that nobody could ever get through. Because if we state that as a goal, that's an unachievable goal.

But operational control means that there's a very, very high degree of certainty that if you try to illegally cross the borders of the United States, you are going to be arrested, you are going to be apprehended.

WIAN: Bonner says in recent years the border patrol has gained operational control of some border regions, including the San Diego and El Paso sectors.

But he says Arizona remains a weak spot, despite ongoing efforts to deploy more resources there. He wouldn't say when the border patrol will have operational control of the entire boarder.

BONNER: I'd have liked to have achieved it yesterday, but it's not something that you can do overnight. Obviously we want to get there as quickly as possible. I don't have a precise timetable. It's going to take a number of things, what I call the keys of success to fall into place to gain operational control.

WIAN: He says those keys include a more mobile border patrol, using better technology and low-tech efforts, such as completely border fence projects.

He also called for more cooperation efforts between the U.S. and Mexico. Mexican government officials attended a border patrol change of command ceremony in California last week.

And he stumped for the president's guest worker proposal, which Bonner says would reduce the number of illegal aliens trying to sneak across the border.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: The border patrol 1.1 million of them last year, but it doesn't know how many more got away, which raises the question: how will the agency know when it's achieve operational control -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, there is that, as you point out. There is also the fact that estimates put the number of illegal aliens our borders last year at three million.

"Operational Control" sounds like one of those bureaucratic/politically tainted words that serve as a term of art, to suggest they're going to maintain the status quo. Is that what Bonner is suggesting here, Casey?

WIAN: No, he's not suggesting that they want to maintain the status quo. He wants the rest of the border that is pretty open right now, particularly in Arizona, to look more like California and Texas, where it is very likely that illegal aliens trying to cross will.

He says that may create some sort of tipping point, that if they make it more difficult for aliens to control, fewer may try to come across, Lou.

DOBBS: It just seems like such a straightforward proposition, not enough agents, a very long border, more border patrol agents and marching orders to stop it, but apparently that's not the case, at least not yet. Casey, thank you, Casey Wian in Los Angeles.

Later here, I'll be talking with a governor who's on the frontline of the battle against illegal immigration. We'll be talking about her escalating fight with the federal government over the high cost of incarcerating criminal illegal aliens in her state, the state of Arizona.

Coming up next, the high cost of so-called free trade. Thousands of Americans could well lose their jobs if the White House pushes through a new free trade agreement with Central America. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight we begin our special report on the latest free trade agreement that the White House is trying now to push through Congress after this fall. Setting it aside for fear of influencing in any way the outcome of the presidential election, now the White House wants to move it quickly and certainly quietly. The Central American Free Trade Agreement, or CAFTA, would open up, its advocates say, free trade between the United States and six countries in Central America. Critics, however, say it will cost only more Americans their jobs.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): George Nailer's family has been farming in Greene County, Iowa, since the 1880s. His grandparents bought this farm in 1918, and George started farming it in 1986. But he sees a bleak future. Only 20 percent of the small family farms in the area are left. He says free trade deals like NAFTA and CAFTA will continue to drive down crop prices for small farmers in the United States.

GEORGE NAYLOR, IOWA FARMER: CAFTA is really a bad idea, because it's just continue to continue what's been going on under NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And you can see that farmers in this country haven't benefited. We're still getting as low of prices as ever.

PILGRIM: The AFL-CIO says 40 percent of Central America's workers earn less than $2 a day, and their rights are routinely abused. American workers can't compete. Job migrate to other countries. But multinational corporations benefit by finding lowest labor costs. CAFTA includes Central American countries Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua.

RICHARD TRUMKA, AFL-CIO: We want trade that will actually lift their standard of living and will result in a better economy and a better world for all of us, not just multinationals.

PILGRIM: But not every industry is against it. For pharmaceutical companies, CAFTA establishes news rules for the protection and enforcement of drug company patents. The retail apparel industry thinks it will help keep costs low.

ERIK AUTOR, NATIONAL RETAIL FEDERATION: For apparel retailers, one of the critical things about the region is its proximity to the U.S. market.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now, the watchdog group Public Citizens points out the compelling statistics that show American workers cannot compete with the workers in CAFTA country. The average worker in Honduras earns only 90 cents an hour to produce goods for the American market. And on average, Lou, children start working in El Salvador in the sugarcane fields at the age of 10 to 13 years old.

DOBBS: It is -- it is so embarrassing that people, Democrats and Republicans, interested in this issue -- all Americans should be -- but just don't just call lies for what they are. They're not misstatements or misunderstandings. They're straightforward lies being uttered on this issue, and a refusal to deal with the facts.

We had the experience with NAFTA. We had the experience with other free trade agreements. And why there will not be a discussion about labor protection and environmental protection, and a leveling of the field, and the protection of the American middle class, is beyond me.

PILGRIM: We found a very frank discussion of this in Iowa with the farmer, and they seem to know the issues very, very well. It's too bad that the American public is not more well-versed on this issue.

DOBBS: And too bad that many of our representatives and senators in Congress and the Senate aren't as articulate and thoughtful as that farmer in Iowa. Thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

A new poll tonight on CAFTA shows American consumers don't want to give up their jobs for lower prices. And even though advocates of CAFTA and other free trade agreements, by the way, try to bring racial and ethnic issues to the forefront on trade issues, it turns out they are pushing a lie.

In point of fact, there is very little difference between Hispanics and non-Hispanics on this issue. This new poll commissioned by the nonprofit organization Americans for Free Fair Trade, registered voters were asked, "Would you favor or oppose CAFTA if it reduces prices you pay as a consumer but eliminates jobs for U.S. workers?"

Seventy-four percent of those polled said they would oppose it. Only 17 percent would support it. When asked the same question, 67 percent of Hispanics said they would oppose CAFTA, 22 percent said they would support it.

Senator Hillary Clinton addressed the issue of outsourcing American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets this weekend. Senator Clinton was in India, meeting with the country's prime minister and top business leaders. There she urged Indian industries to invest more in the United States to cut the enormous trade deficit with India.

In 2003, the United States exported $5 billion worth of merchandise to India, while India exported nearly $14 billion to this country. The former first lady, however, said outsourcing will continue, saying, "There is no way to legislate reality."

Well, the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets is just part of the assault on this country's middle class. Prices on just about anything, in fact, are rising, despite outsourcing, despite a $600 billion-plus trade deficit. And American incomes are now struggling to keep up.

Bill Tucker has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The rich really do keep getting richer. Last year, the overall CEO's salary rose 5 percent to $10.7 million, while the overall income increase for all Americans was just 3.5 percent when adjusted for inflation.

Break those numbers down by earnings levels, and it's obvious. The only increases are at the very top end of the scale. In other words, the old axiom, what's good for GM is good for the economy, may no longer be true.

JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: This is an economy with very strong profit growth and quite weak compensation growth. Now, this has raised many an eyebrow, including that of Alan Greenspan, who a few months ago in testimony said this is a source of concern.

TUCKER: And as the cost to heat homes, fill gas tanks and pay for health insurance continues to rise, the margin for error gets smaller.

AMELIA TYAGI, AUTHOR, "ALL YOUR WORTH": If something goes wrong, you can't say, "Why don't we just get half of health insurance, or why don't we give one bedroom back on that new house we bought?" These are costs that are largely fixed, and people don't have a lot of room to cut back on them.

TUCKER: And that squeeze is getting tighter. Homeowners cashed out almost half a trillion in equity in their homes over the past three years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: And it is that cash which has fueled much of the economy. Now interest rates are rising and home prices are no longer increasing. In fact, the last month the median price of a home fell almost 5 percent. And Lou, given that set of figures, you have to wonder just how much gas is left in the tank for the middle class.

DOBBS: And you have to wonder why policymakers, lawmakers that presumably represent working men and women in this country aren't representing them on Capitol Hill and why the White House won't focus on the reality. I love the fact Senator Hillary Clinton saying that you can't legislate reality.

Well, there are a few folks, like 435 congressmen and 100 senators that are wondering just exactly -- well, make that 99 other senators wondering what she meant by that. Because reality does have to be legislated, or it's going to be unbearable for our middle class.

Bill Tucker, thank you very much.

Former WorldCom Chief Executive Officer Bernie Ebbers came up with a novel defense today. He took the stand in his own defense in his criminal trial. Ebbers testified that he had no idea about the $11 billion in accounting fraud that eventually destroyed WorldCom. Ebbers also claimed that to this day he knows nothing about technology or accounting. Instead, he blamed the fraud on WorldCom CFO Scott Sullivan.

Now, Ebbers is on trial for nine counts, including fraud and conspiracy. And when Ebbers claims he knows nothing about technology or accounting, he is simply asking the jury to take his word for it. He could face as much as 85 years in prison.

Tonight, a turbulent winter storm is pounding much of the eastern half of the nation. We'll have that story and tell you which areas will be hardest-hit next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In a moment, one governor's fight to make the federal government take responsibility for the flood of illegal aliens into this country. Now here are some of the other important stories we're following tonight.

Right now, a huge snowstorm is blanketing the East Coast. Storm watches and warnings are now posted in every state along the East Coast. More than a foot of snow is expected in several states as you look at these live pictures from Philadelphia. Parts of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia to be pounded hardest.

Federated Department Stores is buying its rival, May Department Stores, paying $11 billion. The new company would own more than 1,000 department stores, $30 billion in sales.

Officials and volunteers in Florida tonight are searching for a fifth straight day for a missing 9-year-old girl. The sheriff says he still doesn't know whether Jessica Lunsford was taken or if she ran away. She was last seen at her home on the Gulf Coast Wednesday.

The so-called BTK serial killer committed 10 gruesome murders in Kansas. And the man suspected of those killings that began in the 1970s will appear in a Wichita courtroom tomorrow morning.

Police arrested 59-year-old Dennis Rader Friday during a routine traffic stop. If Rader does turn out to be the BTK killer, he would also be certainly the last person his family, friends and neighbors would have ever suspected him of those crimes, and with good reason.

Bob Franken is in Wichita and has the story -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, first of all, to take care of a little business, the hearing is not going to go at the usual 3:00 in the afternoon time. In fact, it's going to occur tomorrow morning at 11:00 local, which is 12:00 noon Eastern Time. And we're told that he is going to be appearing from his cell, which is quite routine, as opposed to actually showing up in a court.

It's a very preliminary event, just to set permanent bond. It's currently at $10 million. And also, to have the charges levied against him. Very preliminary, as I said. Now, as you pointed out, this is a man who had lived in the community, was president of his church council. He had neighbors. And although many of the neighbors did not like him, they nevertheless spent a lot of time with him.

And so the community, now that he is in custody, if in fact he is the BTK killer, they're saying that it's time to breathe a sigh of relief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, I think the community is relieved. I think that the relatives of the victims are beginning a new chapter. It's going to be very challenging for them as they face the trial of this person, but I think that the community is relieved. I think people are able to sleep much better at night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And, Lou, I think there's an element here, that many people are wondering, could the next one have been me?

DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you very much.

Turning now to a story we've covered extensively here, the millions of illegal aliens who have invaded this country, and many of them criminals for the crimes, of course, they committed while here. Governor Janet Napolitano of Arizona this month sent the federal government a bill for $118 million. That's what Arizona said it spent to imprison illegal aliens who are also convicted criminals for crimes they convicted here.

Governor Napolitano is our guest tonight from Washington, D.C.

Governor, good to have you with us.

GOV. JANET NAPOLITANO (D), ARIZONA: Thank you.

DOBBS: This is an unusual step. You believe the federal government is responsible then?

NAPOLITANO: There's a federal law that says that the federal government is supposed to reimburse states either for the costs of incarcerating illegal aliens or take custody of them. So I -- we haven't been getting reimbursed our actual costs, and I said it's time to send the federal government a bill. They need to abide by their promise.

DOBBS: You know, one of the things, Governor, that we hear, and I'm sure you hear in the state capital, certainly in Arizona, is what is it that the federal government doesn't understand about "illegal"? And what is it that the federal government doesn't understand about the law?

You cite the law, and you're exactly right. But the law also says that the federal government shall enforce, control and protect our borders. And what's going on?

NAPOLITANO: Well, in Arizona, I think referring back to your earlier interview with Director Bonner...

DOBBS: Right?

NAPOLITANO: ... they do not have operational control in Arizona. Over half the border patrol arrests in the country are in Arizona. And that illegal activity is causing grave harm to the state and to the taxpayers of our state. I have to fight for Arizona, and the federal government simply needs to do more in Arizona to get control of that border.

DOBBS: As you say, and Arizona has the more severe problem, the severest problem of all of the border states as best it can be reasoned. What has been the response to billing the government for $118 million?

NAPOLITANO: Well, I haven't received -- I haven't received a response. I haven't even received a letter saying the check is in the mail. But, you know, we put forward why those costs have been incurred, why under the law we are entitled to be reimbursed for them.

Arizona taxpayers are entitled to be reimbursed for them. So I await the response of the attorney general. And hopefully it will be reasoned response and we can work this out.

But, you know, we're doing our job. When people commit crimes in our state, we're prosecuting them and we're incarcerating them. But if they've been able to get into our state because they were able to cross illegally, the federal government should pick up the tab.

DOBBS: Well, Senator Dianne Feinstein, who is, I think, one of the most able of our senators, is very concerned about this issue. She's focused on it as well, as you know. The idea that President Bush when he was the governor of the state of Texas was absolutely supportive of the programs that reimbursed states for the costs incurred. What has been the response from the White House? Has there been any?

NAPOLITANO: Well, it has been underwhelming, to say the least. The president and his budgets has consistently zeroed out any money for the states for the costs of incarcerating illegal aliens. Senator Feinstein and Senator Kyl of Arizona jointly are trying to repair that. But you know, in our state we right now are housing over 4,000 illegal aliens in our state prison at the average cost of about $55 a day, a little bit less. That's a big bill for us. And some of them are ready to be actually deported to Mexico, and we can't get the federal government to process the paperwork to pick them up and get them back home. So, that's a frustration as well.

DOBBS: It's a frustration. It's a frustration felt by nearly all of the citizens of the state of Arizona. The passage of Proposition 200 last fall, which you didn't exactly vigorously support, if I can put it that way, governor... NAPOLITANO: I opposed it, because it doesn't add any Border Patrol Agents to the border, and didn't put any more money into you're state treasury. But...

DOBBS: How do you feel about it now?

NAPOLITANO: We're implementing it now, and we're applying it, and it's the law. And we are applying it in every agency to which -- to which it's applicable, and it's going OK. It's going pretty well, as a matter of fact. But I'll tell you, it hasn't stopped this wave of illegal immigration. If the voters thought we were going to be able to stop this wave of illegal immigration by a measure dealing with how you vote, they were -- that has not happened to be the case. We have become...

DOBBS: I think it's pretty clear. I'm sorry governor. I think it's pretty clear that even just the wording of the proposition doesn't suggest they thought it would stop it, but at least that it might reduce the financial, the economic burden on tax payers in your state -- to deny services.

NAPOLITANO: But these are the big economic burdens. This cost of incarceration, that's $118 million just for the last 18 months. Education and health care, those are not covered in prop 200, those are federally, mandated services, those are costs as well. And quite frankly, from a homeland security standpoint, until you get control of that Arizona border, I don't see how you can say that you have effective homeland security either. So, it's an immigration issue and it's a security issue.

DOBBS: Governor, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think there's any -- frankly, I don't think any American disagrees with you. It brings up the question I want to conclude with here tonight. In Arizona, if it were not for the initiative of proposition 200, there was a frustration with the government -- the state government not representing the people of Arizona, to at least the degree they would like, but it was representative of a frustration we're seeing across the country now. Are we moving toward a situation where in your judgment, as a political expert, that people are going to have to go to public referenda, to initiatives in order to gain the representation and control over their lives that their representatives in Washington seemingly won't provide?

NAPOLITANO: Well, they may have to. But, you know, I take the president at his word that he's going to push for some serious immigration reform. We definitely need that, and we need more resources, technology, manpower, what have you, at the border. When they closed off El Paso and San Diego, that traffic all got funneled into Arizona and we're paying an undue price for it.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And Governor Napolitano, we thank you for being here. We appreciate it.

NAPOLITANO: Thank you. You bet.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question, who should be financially responsible for the cost of illegal aliens, the individual states, the federal government or the country of origin perhaps. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. we'll have the results later here in the show.

"Tonight's Thought" is on America, "We are face to face with our destiny, and we must meet it with high and resolute courage. For all us is the life of action, of strenuous performance of duty. Let us live in the harness, striving mightily. Let us rather run the risk of wearing out than rusting out."

Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts"

John Ryan in Tuscan, Arizona, "Lou, jobs have been exported by the millions and illegal aliens are imported by the millions. The value of the middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate. And now the government is looking to raid our Social Security Trust Fund. When will they put Americans first?"

G.W. Thompkins in Austin, Texas, "Big Business is controlling the political agenda. As long as business can hire illegal aliens with no penalty, the lower and middle class will continue to lose. What long term benefit does cheaper goods from outsourcing bring, if we continue to erode the purchasing power of our workers?"

Robert Gross in Hamilton, New Jersey, "The outsourcing of jobs overseas is destroying our middle class. Very few corporate giants place any value on their employees. If the outsourcing rate continues, middle class America as we know it today will be history. Greed at the top will destroy America's middle class."

Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com.

Tonight, thousands of Americans are becoming sick in the last place that you would expect. Our special report is coming up next. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Two million people in this country each year contract dangerous infections, and at the last place you would expect -- our nation's hospitals. Up to 90,000 people die every year from those infections. In fact, some say what you catch in the hospital is the eighth leading cause of death in this country.

Christine Romans has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the dirty secret of medicine, nasty germs lurking in the hospital, the nursing home, the ambulance, causing deadly infections. Health care associated infections sill more than 200 people a day. They add more than 12 days to an infected patient's hospital stay and according to the Centers for Disease Control, they cost $4.5 billion a year. The number one culprit and appallingly small number of health professionals who properly wash their hand. DENNIS O'LEARY, JOINT COMM. ACCRETION HEALTHCARE ORG.: I think in good hospitals, we are -- we may be at 50 percent, and in ones that are not quite as good, it's much lower.

ROMANS: Busy doctors are rushing from patients to patients, sporadically using surgical gloves or leaving them on too long.

KEITH KAYE, DUKE UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: You're supposed to be able to sing happy birthday in completion while washing your hands. You should be washing you're hands during the entire song. That's pretty hard to do if you're taking care of 20 patients.

ROMANS: Making it worst, 70 percent of these infections are resistant to antibiotics. Patients are older, undergoing new medical procedures.

KATHY WARYE, APIC: The very things that are prolonging our lives and making our medical treatments more effective, are also exposing us to risk for infection.

ROMANS: Blood and urinary tract infections, pneumonia, surgical sight infections. What you catch in the hospital, by some estimates, is the eighth leading caught of death in America.

DENISE CARDO, HEALTHCARE QUALITY PROMOTION, CDC: We have made some progress, but still not good enough. And we need to do better. And we can do better, because we know what is needed to be done.

ROMANS: Safety experts urge patients to ask their doctors if they've washed up. Currently only four states require hospitals to report health care-associated infections, 30 more states are considering it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: And today the CDC issued guidelines for those states as they start to track these infections and individual hospital infection rates. Health care advocates hope by reporting these things better, you're going to start saving lives eventually.

DOBBS: Now, when you say report, you're talking about reporting them publicly, certainly, the CDC is getting information on this.

ROMANS: Only from 300 hospitals.

DOBBS: That's what I was afraid you would say. Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.

A new report tonight shows Americans are living longer than ever before. Medicine is doing its job in so many areas. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say the life expectancy for Americans has now risen to 77.6 years. That's up from 77.3 just the year before.

The report also shows that women still live longer, but men are catching up, by golly. That life expectancy gap, deficit between men and women narrowed to 5.3 years in 2003, from 5.4 the previous year.

Tonight, a new adventure for the first person for circle the globe solo in a hot air balloon. Millionaire Steve Fossett will now attempt the same feat in a single-engine aircraft. Fossett is set to take off in just minutes from Salina, Kansas in a plane -- it's a jet plane -- called the Global Flyer. He's hoping to complete the 23,000- mile trip around Earth in 66 hours. You may remember the Voyager aircraft made the first non-stop flight around the world in 1986 with two people aboard.

The Academy Awards may have succeeded in attracting a somewhat younger audience last night -- we don't know for sure, quite yet -- but we do know that the ratings suffered. Forty one and a half million viewers did watch; that's however, two million fewer than a year ago. Preliminary figures show strong numbers from the top 56 markets, that is the big cities, but that just means the star-studded celebration was more popular in those big cities than it was in suburbia, rural America and all the other places that make up America.

Coming up next, "Overdosed America." Why one doctor says medical care in this country is now a broken promise. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The Food and Drug Administration says the benefits of certain controversial drugs like Vioxx and Naproxen outweigh their risk to the public, but it turns out 10 of the 32 advisers on the FDA panel who made that decision have direct ties to major pharmaceutical companies.

Joining me now is Dr. John Abramson. He is the author of the book "Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine." Doctor, good to have you with us.

DR. JOHN ABRAMSON, AUTHOR, "OVERDOSED AMERICA": Lou, it's a pleasure to be with you.

DOBBS: This is, I think in the minds of many, simply and straightforwardly outrageous, that there would be that kind of connection between a public oversight board and the pharmaceutical industry, that they're supposed to have oversight over.

ABRAMSON: That's exactly right. I think the most outrageous part of it, Lou, is that this has been going on for a long time. "USA Today" reported several years ago that more than half of the members of advisory committees for the FDA have drug company ties. Now in this Vioxx issue, we get to see the real consequences of it, because if the experts without drug company ties didn't vote in this, then Vioxx would not be allowed to come back. The vote would be 14 to eight against it. But the drug -- the experts who have the ties to the drug companies really voted as a block, 9-1, to bring Vioxx back. So we may be having it come back.

DOBBS: So we may be having it come back, and there are other drugs in the so-called COX-2 painkillers. Give us your best assessment. You're a brilliant doctor, you tell us. Is it safe or is it not?

ABRAMSON: Well, Lou, I think that it's clear that all these drugs have some risk of heart attacks, blood clots and strokes. The question is, what's the benefit? And that's really where we the -- as we say in the medicine, where the lesion is.

The American people and American doctors were convinced that these drugs were really superior to the older drugs, like Naproxen or Motrin, or Ibuprofen. But they don't relieve pain any better when patients don't know what they're taking. They're no safer, and in fact Vioxx is significantly more dangerous than over-the-counter Aleve, and they cost 10 to 15 to 20 times more.

So if there were really informed consent for doctors and patients, very few of these drugs would have been prescribed, instead of using $20 billion worth of these drugs over the last five years.

DOBBS: $20 billion of these drugs, much of it because the pharmaceutical companies are advertising. And yet -- which puts the burden in many ways, I would guess, at least on an economic sense, on the consumer. But what in the world are the doctors doing that they're buying into this so readily?

ABRAMSON: Lou, the docs are victims just like the patients are. The articles that reported the big drug company-sponsored studies of Vioxx and Celebrex were in "The New England Journal of Medicine" and "The Journal of the American Medical Association," respectively. Neither of those major reports provided doctors with the information they needed to make the right decisions. They didn't include the data that the drug companies knew that showed that these drugs are no safer, and in the case of Vioxx more dangerous. So docs reading the best journals aren't getting the true information.

DOBBS: And there is also a truth here as well, isn't there, doctor? I mean, the doctors I know are working so hard trying to provide medical care to their patients that there has become almost an assumption that they can rely on that which the big medical technology companies, the big pharmaceutical companies, all of the data and the information they provide them they can rely upon. Is that true?

ABRAMSON: It's true that we're taught that, Lou. I mean, it doesn't take many times of being up all night taking care of sick and dying patients, reporting at rounds in the morning, and not having read your journals and getting humiliated in public. It doesn't take many times of that before you know that you better know what's in those journals. The problem is that the drug companies now fund 80 percent of the trials that are published that tell us about the drugs, and the odds are five times greater that the studies they sponsor will favor their products than the studies that are non-commercially sponsored. So it's as if we're throwing a loaded die.

DOBBS: I should know the answer to this, and we will by tomorrow, but my guess is that doctors and nurses are amongst the most respected people in this country, and that most people would expect them to be the best paid. They are not the best paid, by -- despite some public misperception. But what are we to do here? How are we to protect those that we entrust to provide the most important care for all of us? How are we going to deal with this issue?

ABRAMSON: Lou, if we don't come out of this episode understanding that the main problem here is that docs, nurses are not getting the right information, we are not going to make any progress. There can no longer be the method that we now have of drugs companies sponsoring most of the studies about their drugs, submitting the articles to the journals. Most of the authors have financial ties to the drug companies.

There needs to be some oversight of the quality of our scientific information, and if we don't end up with that from all this, then we are not going to gain anything.

DOBBS: Dr. John Abramson, we thank you for being with us here, the author of the book "Overdosed America." Come back when we'll be talking more with you and others about how to fix this very important issue.

ABRAMSON: Lou, it's a pleasure to be with you. Thanks a lot.

DOBBS: Thank you.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. "Who should be financially responsible for the cost of illegal aliens?" Individual states, the federal government, the country of origin? Please cast your vote at loudobbs.com.

Coming up, why one Texas official is fighting to keep a religious monument outside the state's Capitol building. He is our guest here in just a moment. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This week, the Supreme Court will hear arguments on an issue that's sharply divided many in this country, the issue whether displaying the Ten Commandments in government buildings is unconstitutional. There are a host of other issues around that as well.

My next guest will argue before the high court in favor of a monument to the commandments outside the Texas Capitol building. Greg Abbott is the attorney general for the state of Texas. The attorney general joins us tonight from Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.

GREGG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: Great to be with you.

DOBBS: The Supreme Court is going to make this decision on this monument that someone described as a religious monument. You have prevailed actually in appellate court to this point. What is -- how do you argue that it's not a religious monument?

ABBOTT: Well, the Supreme Court has been clear that it's perfectly constitutional to acknowledge the important role that religion has played in our society, as long as you do so in a way that doesn't endorse religion. And we believe the Ten Commandment monument on the Capitol grounds in Texas does not endorse religion in any way.

DOBBS: Now, this monument sits where? We should make that very clear.

ABBOTT: The monument sits on the Capitol grounds, along with 16 other monuments to Texas history, located about halfway between the Capitol and the Texas Supreme Court. And its location in and of itself highlights the secular role that the Ten Commandments have played in the development of our laws.

DOBBS: We're putting up that monument right now. That -- it is going to be a difficult thing for the Supreme Court justices, it would seem to me at least -- you tell me, Attorney General -- to find against you, because as they look around the room in which they will be hearing your arguments, what are they going to see?

ABBOTT: Well, you make a very good point, because in the Supreme Court chamber itself, as well as other locations in the Supreme Court building, there are symbols that are representative of the Ten Commandments. And the reason is because it is virtually a universally recognized symbol of law, and it's perfectly constitutional to recognize it as such.

DOBBS: Now, the idea that there should be, without question, in this country a separation between government and religion, do you have any disagreement with that assertion?

ABBOTT: Well, actually, there is no actual constitutional requirement for a strict separation between government and state. As the Supreme Court has recognized, we are a religious people and it's been a part of our history, and perfectly constitutional to recognize that.

DOBBS: No separation of church and state?

ABBOTT: Well, again, the state can constitutionally acknowledge religion, as long as it doesn't endorse it.

DOBBS: And that reading is critical to your case and is the foundation of how you've prevailed at this point through the court system, correct?

ABBOTT: Well, that in part, but also a couple of Supreme Court precedents that allowed the display of a creche and a display of a menorah.

DOBBS: And the fact is that religion is part of our culture, it's also an important part of our society and certainly an important part of our history. It is going to be a fascinating case to watch before the Supreme Court, and we thank you for being here, and we wish you well.

ABBOTT: Thank you, sir.

DOBBS: Attorney General Abbott, state of Texas.

Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of tonight's poll. Sixty percent of you said the country of origin should be financially responsible for the costs of illegal aliens; 39 percent say the federal government should be. Just 1 percent say the individual states should be faced with that burden.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Illegal alien crackdown; New York facing some major legal hurdles. The commissioner of the New York's Department of Motor Vehicles is my guest as we discuss driver's licenses and whether illegal aliens should hold them.

Then the CAFTA controversy. The U.S. trade representative explains why he says CAFTA is good for America.

And reviving this country's unions. Can they be revived? The secretary treasurer of the AFL-CIO will be our guest. Please be with us.

For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired February 28, 2005 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the Ten Commandments back in the news. The state of Texas is fighting to keep the Ten Commandments at the state capitol. The Texas attorney general is our guest tonight.
Medicine's dirty secret. Nearly millions of Americans die every year from preventable infections in our hospitals, and you won't believe who and what is to blame.

Assault on our middle class. The biggest decline in personal income in a decade. And there may be even worse shocks ahead for middle class families.

And tonight, our special report, "Broken Borders," an astonishing admission for the man responsible for controlling our borders. My guest tonight is the governor of one of the states on the front line of the battle against illegal aliens.

ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS for news, debate and opinion tonight.

DOBBS: Good evening.

A major step forward for President Bush's vision of democracy in the Middle East today, and a tremendous setback for Syria. The Syrian-backed government of Lebanon has abruptly resigned, the resignation coming after tens of thousands of demonstrators marched outside the Lebanese parliament.

Brent Sadler is outside the Lebanese parliament with the latest on this rapidly developing story. John King is at the White House, where President Bush is closely watching these developments.

We go first to Brent Sadler in Beirut -- Brent.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Lou.

This is the end of a day on which the Lebanese government hoped to ban popular protests, but in the event, demonstrators circumvented the ban, the security forces stepped back and the government resigned.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER (voice-over): A drumbeat of much hoped for democratic change here sweeps through the capital. Renewed demands on Syria to break its hold on Lebanon, with crowds chanting anti-Syrian slogans, aimed at Syria's army and intelligence network, still embedded here. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that this is the beginning. I hope it never, ever, I hope it never fades away. Because it should not ever fade away because finally we as Lebanese decide what to do with our country and our people!

SADLER: The opposition's night of triumph followed a day of defiance. Protesters marching under what they call a banner of freedom from Syrian control.

Government attempts failed to stop the rally. Lebanese security forces reluctant, it seems, to enforce a ban. Flower power winning the day.

A possible turning point, say protest leaders, in a crucial test of wills, challenging the influence of Syria in Lebanon.

CAMILLE CHAMOUN, NATIONAL LIBERAL PARTY: The Syrian people are not our enemies. The Syrian government is, because there's no democracy there.

SADLER: The opposition claims to have won this round in their struggle with Syria, but insist protests will not end here. They still have to deal with a staunchly pro-Syrian president, who holds the power to make crucial decisions.

They still have to deal with a staunchly pro-Syrian president, who holds the power to make crucial decisions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SADLER: The opposition says it now wants to form a government of national unity, or at least a neutral government, one that can eventually help negotiate a peaceful and honorable withdrawal, they say, of Syrian forces from Lebanon -- Lou.

DOBBS: Brent, thank you very much. Brent Sadler from Beirut.

The White House today said Lebanon now has an opportunity to elect a truly representative government, free of foreign government interference.

Senior White House correspondent John King has the report -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, as it applauded those protests and applauded the decision by the Syrian-backed government to resign, the White House strategy was very clear as this all unfolds over the next several days: keep the pressure on Syria.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The White House applauded the resignation of Lebanon's Syrian-backed government as the latest in what it views as a series of positive changes in the Middle East.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We are fully committed to supporting free and fair elections that would be free from outside interference.

KING: Monday's deadly car bombing in Baghdad and Friday's suicide bombing in Tel Aviv are reminders apparent progress in the Middle East is too often troubled by turmoil and violence.

By any standards, the past two months have been remarkable.

THEODORE KATTOUF, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SYRIA: I think what we're seeing, perhaps, if it's not too grandiose a term, is a second Arab awakening.

KING: The Palestinians elected new leadership. And President Mahmoud Abbas promises to improve security and seek peace with Israel.

Iraqis voted by the millions, despite threats from insurgents.

Saudi Arabia held municipal elections and says women might get to vote in the next round.

And Egypt's leader promised Saturday to amend the constitution and allow multi-candidate presidential elections.

Mr. Bush long has suggested voting in Iraq would serve as a model for the region. But even critics of the war suggests the president deserves a share of the credit.

AARON MILLER, PRESIDENT, SEEDS OF PEACE: I wouldn't expect a series of rising democracies or falling dominoes, if you will, anytime soon. This is going to be a long and probably traumatic process, but something important has been set into motion.

KING: Saddam Hussein's half-brother was captured in Syria over the weekend and turned over to Iraqi authorities, but the White House brushed aside suggestions Syria is perhaps trying to repair strained relations and repeated its demand that Syria troops and intelligence services immediately leave Lebanon.

MCCLELLAN: And we will see by their actions if they're committed to changing their behavior.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Freedom is on the march is how the White House press secretary put it earlier today, when asked about the dramatic day in Lebanon, other recent political changes across the Middle East.

But Lou, there also is no shortage of caution here. As one official put it, it is, without a doubt, a hopeful period, he said, but history teaches you not to get too hopeful -- Lou.

DOBBS: John, thank you very much. Senior White House correspondent John King.

Today's bomb attack in Iraq, the most deadly since the fall of Saddam Hussein nearly two years ago. A suicide car bomber blasted a crowd of police recruits in the town of Hillah, 60 miles south of Baghdad. There were 125 Iraqis were killed in the explosion, more than 150 others wounded.

The police recruits were waiting in line for medical examinations outside a government clinic. The blast was so powerful it destroyed nearly all of the suicide bomber's car, the bombing the latest in the series of escalating attacks against Iraqi police and troops.

Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq may be considering launching terrorist attacks inside the United States. U.S. officials say the information was intercepted from a recent communication between Osama bin Laden and his chief lieutenant in Iraq, Abu Musab al Zarqawi.

Those officials say there is nothing in that information to indicate, however, when, where, or how an attack might be carried out. One official told CNN the information is a reaffirmation of al Qaeda's goal to target the United States.

The U.S. customs and border protection commissioner is preparing to unveil a new strategy that would tighten security at our borders. You might believe that his goal is to stop all illegal aliens from entering the country, but in point of fact, the commission says that closing the entire boarder to illegal aliens is, in his words, simply unachievable.

Casey Wian reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: U.S. Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert Bonner often speaks about gaining what he calls operational control of the border. We asked him what that means.

ROBERT BONNER, CBP COMMISSIONER: "Operational control," first of all, it doesn't mean that nobody could ever get through. Because if we state that as a goal, that's an unachievable goal.

But operational control means that there's a very, very high degree of certainty that if you try to illegally cross the borders of the United States, you are going to be arrested, you are going to be apprehended.

WIAN: Bonner says in recent years the border patrol has gained operational control of some border regions, including the San Diego and El Paso sectors.

But he says Arizona remains a weak spot, despite ongoing efforts to deploy more resources there. He wouldn't say when the border patrol will have operational control of the entire boarder.

BONNER: I'd have liked to have achieved it yesterday, but it's not something that you can do overnight. Obviously we want to get there as quickly as possible. I don't have a precise timetable. It's going to take a number of things, what I call the keys of success to fall into place to gain operational control.

WIAN: He says those keys include a more mobile border patrol, using better technology and low-tech efforts, such as completely border fence projects.

He also called for more cooperation efforts between the U.S. and Mexico. Mexican government officials attended a border patrol change of command ceremony in California last week.

And he stumped for the president's guest worker proposal, which Bonner says would reduce the number of illegal aliens trying to sneak across the border.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WIAN: The border patrol 1.1 million of them last year, but it doesn't know how many more got away, which raises the question: how will the agency know when it's achieve operational control -- Lou.

DOBBS: Well, there is that, as you point out. There is also the fact that estimates put the number of illegal aliens our borders last year at three million.

"Operational Control" sounds like one of those bureaucratic/politically tainted words that serve as a term of art, to suggest they're going to maintain the status quo. Is that what Bonner is suggesting here, Casey?

WIAN: No, he's not suggesting that they want to maintain the status quo. He wants the rest of the border that is pretty open right now, particularly in Arizona, to look more like California and Texas, where it is very likely that illegal aliens trying to cross will.

He says that may create some sort of tipping point, that if they make it more difficult for aliens to control, fewer may try to come across, Lou.

DOBBS: It just seems like such a straightforward proposition, not enough agents, a very long border, more border patrol agents and marching orders to stop it, but apparently that's not the case, at least not yet. Casey, thank you, Casey Wian in Los Angeles.

Later here, I'll be talking with a governor who's on the frontline of the battle against illegal immigration. We'll be talking about her escalating fight with the federal government over the high cost of incarcerating criminal illegal aliens in her state, the state of Arizona.

Coming up next, the high cost of so-called free trade. Thousands of Americans could well lose their jobs if the White House pushes through a new free trade agreement with Central America. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Tonight we begin our special report on the latest free trade agreement that the White House is trying now to push through Congress after this fall. Setting it aside for fear of influencing in any way the outcome of the presidential election, now the White House wants to move it quickly and certainly quietly. The Central American Free Trade Agreement, or CAFTA, would open up, its advocates say, free trade between the United States and six countries in Central America. Critics, however, say it will cost only more Americans their jobs.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): George Nailer's family has been farming in Greene County, Iowa, since the 1880s. His grandparents bought this farm in 1918, and George started farming it in 1986. But he sees a bleak future. Only 20 percent of the small family farms in the area are left. He says free trade deals like NAFTA and CAFTA will continue to drive down crop prices for small farmers in the United States.

GEORGE NAYLOR, IOWA FARMER: CAFTA is really a bad idea, because it's just continue to continue what's been going on under NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. And you can see that farmers in this country haven't benefited. We're still getting as low of prices as ever.

PILGRIM: The AFL-CIO says 40 percent of Central America's workers earn less than $2 a day, and their rights are routinely abused. American workers can't compete. Job migrate to other countries. But multinational corporations benefit by finding lowest labor costs. CAFTA includes Central American countries Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua.

RICHARD TRUMKA, AFL-CIO: We want trade that will actually lift their standard of living and will result in a better economy and a better world for all of us, not just multinationals.

PILGRIM: But not every industry is against it. For pharmaceutical companies, CAFTA establishes news rules for the protection and enforcement of drug company patents. The retail apparel industry thinks it will help keep costs low.

ERIK AUTOR, NATIONAL RETAIL FEDERATION: For apparel retailers, one of the critical things about the region is its proximity to the U.S. market.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PILGRIM: Now, the watchdog group Public Citizens points out the compelling statistics that show American workers cannot compete with the workers in CAFTA country. The average worker in Honduras earns only 90 cents an hour to produce goods for the American market. And on average, Lou, children start working in El Salvador in the sugarcane fields at the age of 10 to 13 years old.

DOBBS: It is -- it is so embarrassing that people, Democrats and Republicans, interested in this issue -- all Americans should be -- but just don't just call lies for what they are. They're not misstatements or misunderstandings. They're straightforward lies being uttered on this issue, and a refusal to deal with the facts.

We had the experience with NAFTA. We had the experience with other free trade agreements. And why there will not be a discussion about labor protection and environmental protection, and a leveling of the field, and the protection of the American middle class, is beyond me.

PILGRIM: We found a very frank discussion of this in Iowa with the farmer, and they seem to know the issues very, very well. It's too bad that the American public is not more well-versed on this issue.

DOBBS: And too bad that many of our representatives and senators in Congress and the Senate aren't as articulate and thoughtful as that farmer in Iowa. Thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

A new poll tonight on CAFTA shows American consumers don't want to give up their jobs for lower prices. And even though advocates of CAFTA and other free trade agreements, by the way, try to bring racial and ethnic issues to the forefront on trade issues, it turns out they are pushing a lie.

In point of fact, there is very little difference between Hispanics and non-Hispanics on this issue. This new poll commissioned by the nonprofit organization Americans for Free Fair Trade, registered voters were asked, "Would you favor or oppose CAFTA if it reduces prices you pay as a consumer but eliminates jobs for U.S. workers?"

Seventy-four percent of those polled said they would oppose it. Only 17 percent would support it. When asked the same question, 67 percent of Hispanics said they would oppose CAFTA, 22 percent said they would support it.

Senator Hillary Clinton addressed the issue of outsourcing American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets this weekend. Senator Clinton was in India, meeting with the country's prime minister and top business leaders. There she urged Indian industries to invest more in the United States to cut the enormous trade deficit with India.

In 2003, the United States exported $5 billion worth of merchandise to India, while India exported nearly $14 billion to this country. The former first lady, however, said outsourcing will continue, saying, "There is no way to legislate reality."

Well, the shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets is just part of the assault on this country's middle class. Prices on just about anything, in fact, are rising, despite outsourcing, despite a $600 billion-plus trade deficit. And American incomes are now struggling to keep up.

Bill Tucker has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The rich really do keep getting richer. Last year, the overall CEO's salary rose 5 percent to $10.7 million, while the overall income increase for all Americans was just 3.5 percent when adjusted for inflation.

Break those numbers down by earnings levels, and it's obvious. The only increases are at the very top end of the scale. In other words, the old axiom, what's good for GM is good for the economy, may no longer be true.

JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: This is an economy with very strong profit growth and quite weak compensation growth. Now, this has raised many an eyebrow, including that of Alan Greenspan, who a few months ago in testimony said this is a source of concern.

TUCKER: And as the cost to heat homes, fill gas tanks and pay for health insurance continues to rise, the margin for error gets smaller.

AMELIA TYAGI, AUTHOR, "ALL YOUR WORTH": If something goes wrong, you can't say, "Why don't we just get half of health insurance, or why don't we give one bedroom back on that new house we bought?" These are costs that are largely fixed, and people don't have a lot of room to cut back on them.

TUCKER: And that squeeze is getting tighter. Homeowners cashed out almost half a trillion in equity in their homes over the past three years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TUCKER: And it is that cash which has fueled much of the economy. Now interest rates are rising and home prices are no longer increasing. In fact, the last month the median price of a home fell almost 5 percent. And Lou, given that set of figures, you have to wonder just how much gas is left in the tank for the middle class.

DOBBS: And you have to wonder why policymakers, lawmakers that presumably represent working men and women in this country aren't representing them on Capitol Hill and why the White House won't focus on the reality. I love the fact Senator Hillary Clinton saying that you can't legislate reality.

Well, there are a few folks, like 435 congressmen and 100 senators that are wondering just exactly -- well, make that 99 other senators wondering what she meant by that. Because reality does have to be legislated, or it's going to be unbearable for our middle class.

Bill Tucker, thank you very much.

Former WorldCom Chief Executive Officer Bernie Ebbers came up with a novel defense today. He took the stand in his own defense in his criminal trial. Ebbers testified that he had no idea about the $11 billion in accounting fraud that eventually destroyed WorldCom. Ebbers also claimed that to this day he knows nothing about technology or accounting. Instead, he blamed the fraud on WorldCom CFO Scott Sullivan.

Now, Ebbers is on trial for nine counts, including fraud and conspiracy. And when Ebbers claims he knows nothing about technology or accounting, he is simply asking the jury to take his word for it. He could face as much as 85 years in prison.

Tonight, a turbulent winter storm is pounding much of the eastern half of the nation. We'll have that story and tell you which areas will be hardest-hit next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: In a moment, one governor's fight to make the federal government take responsibility for the flood of illegal aliens into this country. Now here are some of the other important stories we're following tonight.

Right now, a huge snowstorm is blanketing the East Coast. Storm watches and warnings are now posted in every state along the East Coast. More than a foot of snow is expected in several states as you look at these live pictures from Philadelphia. Parts of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, West Virginia to be pounded hardest.

Federated Department Stores is buying its rival, May Department Stores, paying $11 billion. The new company would own more than 1,000 department stores, $30 billion in sales.

Officials and volunteers in Florida tonight are searching for a fifth straight day for a missing 9-year-old girl. The sheriff says he still doesn't know whether Jessica Lunsford was taken or if she ran away. She was last seen at her home on the Gulf Coast Wednesday.

The so-called BTK serial killer committed 10 gruesome murders in Kansas. And the man suspected of those killings that began in the 1970s will appear in a Wichita courtroom tomorrow morning.

Police arrested 59-year-old Dennis Rader Friday during a routine traffic stop. If Rader does turn out to be the BTK killer, he would also be certainly the last person his family, friends and neighbors would have ever suspected him of those crimes, and with good reason.

Bob Franken is in Wichita and has the story -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, first of all, to take care of a little business, the hearing is not going to go at the usual 3:00 in the afternoon time. In fact, it's going to occur tomorrow morning at 11:00 local, which is 12:00 noon Eastern Time. And we're told that he is going to be appearing from his cell, which is quite routine, as opposed to actually showing up in a court.

It's a very preliminary event, just to set permanent bond. It's currently at $10 million. And also, to have the charges levied against him. Very preliminary, as I said. Now, as you pointed out, this is a man who had lived in the community, was president of his church council. He had neighbors. And although many of the neighbors did not like him, they nevertheless spent a lot of time with him.

And so the community, now that he is in custody, if in fact he is the BTK killer, they're saying that it's time to breathe a sigh of relief.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: First of all, I think the community is relieved. I think that the relatives of the victims are beginning a new chapter. It's going to be very challenging for them as they face the trial of this person, but I think that the community is relieved. I think people are able to sleep much better at night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And, Lou, I think there's an element here, that many people are wondering, could the next one have been me?

DOBBS: Bob Franken, thank you very much.

Turning now to a story we've covered extensively here, the millions of illegal aliens who have invaded this country, and many of them criminals for the crimes, of course, they committed while here. Governor Janet Napolitano of Arizona this month sent the federal government a bill for $118 million. That's what Arizona said it spent to imprison illegal aliens who are also convicted criminals for crimes they convicted here.

Governor Napolitano is our guest tonight from Washington, D.C.

Governor, good to have you with us.

GOV. JANET NAPOLITANO (D), ARIZONA: Thank you.

DOBBS: This is an unusual step. You believe the federal government is responsible then?

NAPOLITANO: There's a federal law that says that the federal government is supposed to reimburse states either for the costs of incarcerating illegal aliens or take custody of them. So I -- we haven't been getting reimbursed our actual costs, and I said it's time to send the federal government a bill. They need to abide by their promise.

DOBBS: You know, one of the things, Governor, that we hear, and I'm sure you hear in the state capital, certainly in Arizona, is what is it that the federal government doesn't understand about "illegal"? And what is it that the federal government doesn't understand about the law?

You cite the law, and you're exactly right. But the law also says that the federal government shall enforce, control and protect our borders. And what's going on?

NAPOLITANO: Well, in Arizona, I think referring back to your earlier interview with Director Bonner...

DOBBS: Right?

NAPOLITANO: ... they do not have operational control in Arizona. Over half the border patrol arrests in the country are in Arizona. And that illegal activity is causing grave harm to the state and to the taxpayers of our state. I have to fight for Arizona, and the federal government simply needs to do more in Arizona to get control of that border.

DOBBS: As you say, and Arizona has the more severe problem, the severest problem of all of the border states as best it can be reasoned. What has been the response to billing the government for $118 million?

NAPOLITANO: Well, I haven't received -- I haven't received a response. I haven't even received a letter saying the check is in the mail. But, you know, we put forward why those costs have been incurred, why under the law we are entitled to be reimbursed for them.

Arizona taxpayers are entitled to be reimbursed for them. So I await the response of the attorney general. And hopefully it will be reasoned response and we can work this out.

But, you know, we're doing our job. When people commit crimes in our state, we're prosecuting them and we're incarcerating them. But if they've been able to get into our state because they were able to cross illegally, the federal government should pick up the tab.

DOBBS: Well, Senator Dianne Feinstein, who is, I think, one of the most able of our senators, is very concerned about this issue. She's focused on it as well, as you know. The idea that President Bush when he was the governor of the state of Texas was absolutely supportive of the programs that reimbursed states for the costs incurred. What has been the response from the White House? Has there been any?

NAPOLITANO: Well, it has been underwhelming, to say the least. The president and his budgets has consistently zeroed out any money for the states for the costs of incarcerating illegal aliens. Senator Feinstein and Senator Kyl of Arizona jointly are trying to repair that. But you know, in our state we right now are housing over 4,000 illegal aliens in our state prison at the average cost of about $55 a day, a little bit less. That's a big bill for us. And some of them are ready to be actually deported to Mexico, and we can't get the federal government to process the paperwork to pick them up and get them back home. So, that's a frustration as well.

DOBBS: It's a frustration. It's a frustration felt by nearly all of the citizens of the state of Arizona. The passage of Proposition 200 last fall, which you didn't exactly vigorously support, if I can put it that way, governor... NAPOLITANO: I opposed it, because it doesn't add any Border Patrol Agents to the border, and didn't put any more money into you're state treasury. But...

DOBBS: How do you feel about it now?

NAPOLITANO: We're implementing it now, and we're applying it, and it's the law. And we are applying it in every agency to which -- to which it's applicable, and it's going OK. It's going pretty well, as a matter of fact. But I'll tell you, it hasn't stopped this wave of illegal immigration. If the voters thought we were going to be able to stop this wave of illegal immigration by a measure dealing with how you vote, they were -- that has not happened to be the case. We have become...

DOBBS: I think it's pretty clear. I'm sorry governor. I think it's pretty clear that even just the wording of the proposition doesn't suggest they thought it would stop it, but at least that it might reduce the financial, the economic burden on tax payers in your state -- to deny services.

NAPOLITANO: But these are the big economic burdens. This cost of incarceration, that's $118 million just for the last 18 months. Education and health care, those are not covered in prop 200, those are federally, mandated services, those are costs as well. And quite frankly, from a homeland security standpoint, until you get control of that Arizona border, I don't see how you can say that you have effective homeland security either. So, it's an immigration issue and it's a security issue.

DOBBS: Governor, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think there's any -- frankly, I don't think any American disagrees with you. It brings up the question I want to conclude with here tonight. In Arizona, if it were not for the initiative of proposition 200, there was a frustration with the government -- the state government not representing the people of Arizona, to at least the degree they would like, but it was representative of a frustration we're seeing across the country now. Are we moving toward a situation where in your judgment, as a political expert, that people are going to have to go to public referenda, to initiatives in order to gain the representation and control over their lives that their representatives in Washington seemingly won't provide?

NAPOLITANO: Well, they may have to. But, you know, I take the president at his word that he's going to push for some serious immigration reform. We definitely need that, and we need more resources, technology, manpower, what have you, at the border. When they closed off El Paso and San Diego, that traffic all got funneled into Arizona and we're paying an undue price for it.

DOBBS: Absolutely. And Governor Napolitano, we thank you for being here. We appreciate it.

NAPOLITANO: Thank you. You bet.

DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. The question, who should be financially responsible for the cost of illegal aliens, the individual states, the federal government or the country of origin perhaps. Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. we'll have the results later here in the show.

"Tonight's Thought" is on America, "We are face to face with our destiny, and we must meet it with high and resolute courage. For all us is the life of action, of strenuous performance of duty. Let us live in the harness, striving mightily. Let us rather run the risk of wearing out than rusting out."

Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts"

John Ryan in Tuscan, Arizona, "Lou, jobs have been exported by the millions and illegal aliens are imported by the millions. The value of the middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate. And now the government is looking to raid our Social Security Trust Fund. When will they put Americans first?"

G.W. Thompkins in Austin, Texas, "Big Business is controlling the political agenda. As long as business can hire illegal aliens with no penalty, the lower and middle class will continue to lose. What long term benefit does cheaper goods from outsourcing bring, if we continue to erode the purchasing power of our workers?"

Robert Gross in Hamilton, New Jersey, "The outsourcing of jobs overseas is destroying our middle class. Very few corporate giants place any value on their employees. If the outsourcing rate continues, middle class America as we know it today will be history. Greed at the top will destroy America's middle class."

Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com.

Tonight, thousands of Americans are becoming sick in the last place that you would expect. Our special report is coming up next. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: Two million people in this country each year contract dangerous infections, and at the last place you would expect -- our nation's hospitals. Up to 90,000 people die every year from those infections. In fact, some say what you catch in the hospital is the eighth leading cause of death in this country.

Christine Romans has the report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the dirty secret of medicine, nasty germs lurking in the hospital, the nursing home, the ambulance, causing deadly infections. Health care associated infections sill more than 200 people a day. They add more than 12 days to an infected patient's hospital stay and according to the Centers for Disease Control, they cost $4.5 billion a year. The number one culprit and appallingly small number of health professionals who properly wash their hand. DENNIS O'LEARY, JOINT COMM. ACCRETION HEALTHCARE ORG.: I think in good hospitals, we are -- we may be at 50 percent, and in ones that are not quite as good, it's much lower.

ROMANS: Busy doctors are rushing from patients to patients, sporadically using surgical gloves or leaving them on too long.

KEITH KAYE, DUKE UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: You're supposed to be able to sing happy birthday in completion while washing your hands. You should be washing you're hands during the entire song. That's pretty hard to do if you're taking care of 20 patients.

ROMANS: Making it worst, 70 percent of these infections are resistant to antibiotics. Patients are older, undergoing new medical procedures.

KATHY WARYE, APIC: The very things that are prolonging our lives and making our medical treatments more effective, are also exposing us to risk for infection.

ROMANS: Blood and urinary tract infections, pneumonia, surgical sight infections. What you catch in the hospital, by some estimates, is the eighth leading caught of death in America.

DENISE CARDO, HEALTHCARE QUALITY PROMOTION, CDC: We have made some progress, but still not good enough. And we need to do better. And we can do better, because we know what is needed to be done.

ROMANS: Safety experts urge patients to ask their doctors if they've washed up. Currently only four states require hospitals to report health care-associated infections, 30 more states are considering it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: And today the CDC issued guidelines for those states as they start to track these infections and individual hospital infection rates. Health care advocates hope by reporting these things better, you're going to start saving lives eventually.

DOBBS: Now, when you say report, you're talking about reporting them publicly, certainly, the CDC is getting information on this.

ROMANS: Only from 300 hospitals.

DOBBS: That's what I was afraid you would say. Christine, thank you very much. Christine Romans.

A new report tonight shows Americans are living longer than ever before. Medicine is doing its job in so many areas. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say the life expectancy for Americans has now risen to 77.6 years. That's up from 77.3 just the year before.

The report also shows that women still live longer, but men are catching up, by golly. That life expectancy gap, deficit between men and women narrowed to 5.3 years in 2003, from 5.4 the previous year.

Tonight, a new adventure for the first person for circle the globe solo in a hot air balloon. Millionaire Steve Fossett will now attempt the same feat in a single-engine aircraft. Fossett is set to take off in just minutes from Salina, Kansas in a plane -- it's a jet plane -- called the Global Flyer. He's hoping to complete the 23,000- mile trip around Earth in 66 hours. You may remember the Voyager aircraft made the first non-stop flight around the world in 1986 with two people aboard.

The Academy Awards may have succeeded in attracting a somewhat younger audience last night -- we don't know for sure, quite yet -- but we do know that the ratings suffered. Forty one and a half million viewers did watch; that's however, two million fewer than a year ago. Preliminary figures show strong numbers from the top 56 markets, that is the big cities, but that just means the star-studded celebration was more popular in those big cities than it was in suburbia, rural America and all the other places that make up America.

Coming up next, "Overdosed America." Why one doctor says medical care in this country is now a broken promise. Stay with us.

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DOBBS: The Food and Drug Administration says the benefits of certain controversial drugs like Vioxx and Naproxen outweigh their risk to the public, but it turns out 10 of the 32 advisers on the FDA panel who made that decision have direct ties to major pharmaceutical companies.

Joining me now is Dr. John Abramson. He is the author of the book "Overdosed America: The Broken Promise of American Medicine." Doctor, good to have you with us.

DR. JOHN ABRAMSON, AUTHOR, "OVERDOSED AMERICA": Lou, it's a pleasure to be with you.

DOBBS: This is, I think in the minds of many, simply and straightforwardly outrageous, that there would be that kind of connection between a public oversight board and the pharmaceutical industry, that they're supposed to have oversight over.

ABRAMSON: That's exactly right. I think the most outrageous part of it, Lou, is that this has been going on for a long time. "USA Today" reported several years ago that more than half of the members of advisory committees for the FDA have drug company ties. Now in this Vioxx issue, we get to see the real consequences of it, because if the experts without drug company ties didn't vote in this, then Vioxx would not be allowed to come back. The vote would be 14 to eight against it. But the drug -- the experts who have the ties to the drug companies really voted as a block, 9-1, to bring Vioxx back. So we may be having it come back.

DOBBS: So we may be having it come back, and there are other drugs in the so-called COX-2 painkillers. Give us your best assessment. You're a brilliant doctor, you tell us. Is it safe or is it not?

ABRAMSON: Well, Lou, I think that it's clear that all these drugs have some risk of heart attacks, blood clots and strokes. The question is, what's the benefit? And that's really where we the -- as we say in the medicine, where the lesion is.

The American people and American doctors were convinced that these drugs were really superior to the older drugs, like Naproxen or Motrin, or Ibuprofen. But they don't relieve pain any better when patients don't know what they're taking. They're no safer, and in fact Vioxx is significantly more dangerous than over-the-counter Aleve, and they cost 10 to 15 to 20 times more.

So if there were really informed consent for doctors and patients, very few of these drugs would have been prescribed, instead of using $20 billion worth of these drugs over the last five years.

DOBBS: $20 billion of these drugs, much of it because the pharmaceutical companies are advertising. And yet -- which puts the burden in many ways, I would guess, at least on an economic sense, on the consumer. But what in the world are the doctors doing that they're buying into this so readily?

ABRAMSON: Lou, the docs are victims just like the patients are. The articles that reported the big drug company-sponsored studies of Vioxx and Celebrex were in "The New England Journal of Medicine" and "The Journal of the American Medical Association," respectively. Neither of those major reports provided doctors with the information they needed to make the right decisions. They didn't include the data that the drug companies knew that showed that these drugs are no safer, and in the case of Vioxx more dangerous. So docs reading the best journals aren't getting the true information.

DOBBS: And there is also a truth here as well, isn't there, doctor? I mean, the doctors I know are working so hard trying to provide medical care to their patients that there has become almost an assumption that they can rely on that which the big medical technology companies, the big pharmaceutical companies, all of the data and the information they provide them they can rely upon. Is that true?

ABRAMSON: It's true that we're taught that, Lou. I mean, it doesn't take many times of being up all night taking care of sick and dying patients, reporting at rounds in the morning, and not having read your journals and getting humiliated in public. It doesn't take many times of that before you know that you better know what's in those journals. The problem is that the drug companies now fund 80 percent of the trials that are published that tell us about the drugs, and the odds are five times greater that the studies they sponsor will favor their products than the studies that are non-commercially sponsored. So it's as if we're throwing a loaded die.

DOBBS: I should know the answer to this, and we will by tomorrow, but my guess is that doctors and nurses are amongst the most respected people in this country, and that most people would expect them to be the best paid. They are not the best paid, by -- despite some public misperception. But what are we to do here? How are we to protect those that we entrust to provide the most important care for all of us? How are we going to deal with this issue?

ABRAMSON: Lou, if we don't come out of this episode understanding that the main problem here is that docs, nurses are not getting the right information, we are not going to make any progress. There can no longer be the method that we now have of drugs companies sponsoring most of the studies about their drugs, submitting the articles to the journals. Most of the authors have financial ties to the drug companies.

There needs to be some oversight of the quality of our scientific information, and if we don't end up with that from all this, then we are not going to gain anything.

DOBBS: Dr. John Abramson, we thank you for being with us here, the author of the book "Overdosed America." Come back when we'll be talking more with you and others about how to fix this very important issue.

ABRAMSON: Lou, it's a pleasure to be with you. Thanks a lot.

DOBBS: Thank you.

A reminder now to vote in our poll. "Who should be financially responsible for the cost of illegal aliens?" Individual states, the federal government, the country of origin? Please cast your vote at loudobbs.com.

Coming up, why one Texas official is fighting to keep a religious monument outside the state's Capitol building. He is our guest here in just a moment. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: This week, the Supreme Court will hear arguments on an issue that's sharply divided many in this country, the issue whether displaying the Ten Commandments in government buildings is unconstitutional. There are a host of other issues around that as well.

My next guest will argue before the high court in favor of a monument to the commandments outside the Texas Capitol building. Greg Abbott is the attorney general for the state of Texas. The attorney general joins us tonight from Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.

GREGG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS ATTORNEY GENERAL: Great to be with you.

DOBBS: The Supreme Court is going to make this decision on this monument that someone described as a religious monument. You have prevailed actually in appellate court to this point. What is -- how do you argue that it's not a religious monument?

ABBOTT: Well, the Supreme Court has been clear that it's perfectly constitutional to acknowledge the important role that religion has played in our society, as long as you do so in a way that doesn't endorse religion. And we believe the Ten Commandment monument on the Capitol grounds in Texas does not endorse religion in any way.

DOBBS: Now, this monument sits where? We should make that very clear.

ABBOTT: The monument sits on the Capitol grounds, along with 16 other monuments to Texas history, located about halfway between the Capitol and the Texas Supreme Court. And its location in and of itself highlights the secular role that the Ten Commandments have played in the development of our laws.

DOBBS: We're putting up that monument right now. That -- it is going to be a difficult thing for the Supreme Court justices, it would seem to me at least -- you tell me, Attorney General -- to find against you, because as they look around the room in which they will be hearing your arguments, what are they going to see?

ABBOTT: Well, you make a very good point, because in the Supreme Court chamber itself, as well as other locations in the Supreme Court building, there are symbols that are representative of the Ten Commandments. And the reason is because it is virtually a universally recognized symbol of law, and it's perfectly constitutional to recognize it as such.

DOBBS: Now, the idea that there should be, without question, in this country a separation between government and religion, do you have any disagreement with that assertion?

ABBOTT: Well, actually, there is no actual constitutional requirement for a strict separation between government and state. As the Supreme Court has recognized, we are a religious people and it's been a part of our history, and perfectly constitutional to recognize that.

DOBBS: No separation of church and state?

ABBOTT: Well, again, the state can constitutionally acknowledge religion, as long as it doesn't endorse it.

DOBBS: And that reading is critical to your case and is the foundation of how you've prevailed at this point through the court system, correct?

ABBOTT: Well, that in part, but also a couple of Supreme Court precedents that allowed the display of a creche and a display of a menorah.

DOBBS: And the fact is that religion is part of our culture, it's also an important part of our society and certainly an important part of our history. It is going to be a fascinating case to watch before the Supreme Court, and we thank you for being here, and we wish you well.

ABBOTT: Thank you, sir.

DOBBS: Attorney General Abbott, state of Texas.

Still ahead, the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what's ahead tomorrow. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DOBBS: The results now of tonight's poll. Sixty percent of you said the country of origin should be financially responsible for the costs of illegal aliens; 39 percent say the federal government should be. Just 1 percent say the individual states should be faced with that burden.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. Illegal alien crackdown; New York facing some major legal hurdles. The commissioner of the New York's Department of Motor Vehicles is my guest as we discuss driver's licenses and whether illegal aliens should hold them.

Then the CAFTA controversy. The U.S. trade representative explains why he says CAFTA is good for America.

And reviving this country's unions. Can they be revived? The secretary treasurer of the AFL-CIO will be our guest. Please be with us.

For all of us here, good night from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" coming up next.

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