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Nancy Grace

Will BTK Face Death Penalty?; Search for Jessica Lunsford Continues; Opening Statements in Jackson Trial Get Under Way

Aired February 28, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, "Bind, Torture, Kill": Last week, we took to the airways asking for your help. Then, after 20 long years, it looks like the BTK killer is behind bars tonight. We go live for the latest. And will he face the death penalty?
And also tonight, we`re not giving up on Jessica Marie Lunsford, the nine-year-old little Florida girl. Tonight, Jessica`s father and mother speak out.

And finally, it`s been a long time coming and some court watchers say as long as 1993. Believe it or not, opening statements in the child molestation case against an American icon, Michael Jackson. Is the prosecution making headway or will Michael Jackson "Beat It"?

Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Did DNA evidence bring an end to the BTK killer`s 30-year reign of fear? Wichita police have Dennis Rader. He`s a husband -- take a look at this guy -- husband, father, church member, voted an elder in the church -- I`ll find out what means -- Cub Scout leader. Well, he`s also an inmate.

Also tonight, please help us. Nine-year-old Jessica Marie Lunsford still missing, last seen wearing a pink nightgown, no shoes. It`s been five long days since Jessica went missing from her bedroom in a Florida home. The search is going on, but police are still unable, they say, to determine if this was an abduction or if this little child left her bedroom on her own. Are they crazy?

And finally, Michael Jackson`s trial has kicked off with heated opening statements.

But first, let`s go out to Wichita on the BTK killer case. KAKE-TV`s Larry Hatteberg is with us.

Larry, welcome. As of tonight, what`s the latest, friend?

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV: Well, the latest is that BTK suspect Dennis Rader will make his first court appearance tomorrow in a Sedgwick County courtroom. He`s currently being held in the Sedgwick County Jail on a $10 million bond, that is $1 million for each of the ten counts of first-degree murder that he`s expected to be charged with. So that is the very latest.

GRACE: You know, Larry, a lot of people don`t get that. When I first started prosecuting, I didn`t either. When you say $10 million, you would think somebody would have to dig up $10 million, which of course nobody can, but really a bond is just 10 percent of what the judge thinks. Now, I don`t think this guy is going to bond out. What does he do for a living?

HATTEBERG: What he does for a living, is he was a compliance officer for the city of Park City. Park City a bedroom suburb of Wichita. And he worked for the city of Park City. And he was kind of a little bit of jack of all trades. He was kind of in charge of the dogcatcher there. And if there were old cars that needed to be removed from around your house, he made sure that he wrote out a citation for that and...

GRACE: The dogcatcher?

HATTEBERG: Yes, right. That`s exactly. He was Park...

GRACE: You know, I know this is going to make a lot of people mad, but when I think dogcatcher, I have very bad connotations.

HATTEBERG: Well, we have very bad connotations now in the Wichita area because he was responsible for that. He was one of their supervisors and probably occasionally picked up animals.

But he was also a compliance officer. And we have an interesting picture of Dennis Rader right now, because some people really liked the man and other people really hated him. His congregation -- he was the president of his Lutheran Church congregation here in Wichita. And the people there were absolutely devastated. They could not believe that this was the same man who sat in their pews and was really known as a worker do- be.

GRACE: A nice guy?

HATTEBERG: He would do anything in the church. And then we have the other side of him that, when he put on the badge and became the compliance officer, he really became a...

GRACE: You mean the dogcatcher compliance badge? It sounds like Barney Fife.

HATTEBERG: Well, I don`t know if it was Barney Fife, but really had this demeanor for many people there in which they didn`t like him. When he came over to their house, we had one report where he was measuring the length of grass in the front yard...

GRACE: With a ruler?

HATTEBERG: ... and writing citations because of that.

GRACE: With a ruler?

HATTEBERG: Yes, that`s correct.

GRACE: OK, you mentioned his church, Larry.

With us, KAKE anchor Larry Hatteberg, with the latest on the BTK killer, "Bind, Torture, Kill."

Take a listen to this, Larry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FREYJA CARLSTEDT, ATTENDS SAME CHURCH AS BTK SUSPECT: I think my mind is numb. I mean, we just -- when we found out, all`s we could say was, "That`s impossible. It couldn`t be." I mean, people we`re hearing about on television is not the person that we knew. The person that we knew was kind, he was a hard worker, he was willing to help and do anything at this church. Obviously, we all respected him or he wouldn`t have been president of our church. So to try to picture him in this way, I can`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Larry, this is what is doubly scary to many people. OK, we know he`s charged with ten murders. We know that, at least authorities believe, I don`t believe, there has been a period of dormancy where he has not struck. The fact that he started sending messages to me indicates that he was about to crank back up again. What do you think, Larry?

HATTEBERG: Well, it could have been. I mean, there are a million theories about why he started back up. And there have been 11 communications from BTK since last March. Three of those communications came right here to this television station here.

Now, we know that he loved publicity. He loved seeing his name on the network shows. He loved seeing his name in the newspaper...

GRACE: Yes.

HATTEBERG: ... and particular on the local channels here. He loved that. He lived for that publicity.

Early in the 1970s, he wrote us a letter, because he had previously written a letter to the newspaper that they had not yet published. So he wrote us a letter and he said, quote, "How many more people do I have to kill before I get my name in the paper?"

GRACE: "How many more people do I have to kill before get my name in the paper?" OK, you know what, Larry? I know you are a journalist. But you see where this is headed, right?

HATTEBERG: I see where you`re going, Nancy.

GRACE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Hey, I`m not going there. This guy held down a regular job. His community, his church community, his neighbors, his family, all -- no, this guy is not insane.

Hey, don`t move, Larry. I want you to stay with us.

Now joining us, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz. Also with us, the prosecutor who sent the killer clown, serial killer, John Wayne Gacy, to death. His name is Terry Sullivan. And I still congratulate you on that, Terry -- former FBI agent and profiler, Candice DeLong, and from Houston, victims` rights advocate, Andy Kahan.

Andy monitors murderabilia, people selling and buying souvenirs from serial killers.

And let me tell you tonight sales are brisk on-line with BTK memorabilia. Andy, incredible. What have you found?

ANDY KAHAN, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, within a few hours, after they announced the arrest of Dennis Rader, eBay was being flooded with personalized items, that unfortunately many people in the Wichita...

GRACE: Sick, sick, sick.

KAHAN: It`s absolutely -- if you had a signature with Dennis Rader`s name on it, and they were selling compliance notices that he sent out, and they were getting $300 or $400 bucks a pop for it, business cards...

GRACE: $400 for an alleged serial killer`s autograph? You know, didn`t you just fight this battle a couple years ago, Andy?

KAHAN: We fought the battle in several states. And this is something I would encourage the people of Kansas. They need to enact what we call a notoriety-for-profit law. Because this is just the beginning of the marketing and merchandising of BTK...

GRACE: ... of the BTK killer.

KAHAN: And as the TV guy stated, this guy loves the attention. He seeks the attention. He wants immortality, infamy. And it`s just a matter of time before the real dealers get to him and they start cutting deals for profit.

GRACE: Andy, I have got to go to break. But have you notified eBay, the giant? You know, people make money from advertising on eBay. EBay gets a cut of every sale, if I`m correct? Have you notified them?

KAHAN: Yes, they were notified. And they`ve actually pulled the personalized items. But what`s going to happen now is the murderabilia dealers are going to get a hold of Rader and they`re going to put it up on their own Web sites. And here we go again.

GRACE: Here we go again.

Everybody, we`re going to get down into the nitty gritty of who BTK is. Guess what? A lot of the profiles that were done 20 years ago have turned out to be totally wrong. Little bits and pieces of them are right. We`ll be talking to our panel, as well as the guy who has been on this story for a long, long time, many years.

Tonight, fingers crossed, BTK killer behind bars.

Very quickly, Candice DeLong, what do you think about the former profilers?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, I`m not exactly sure which ones you`re talking about. There are a lot of people out there calling themselves profilers, putting out profiles that really have no special training in it. I was in profiling school for the first time in 1985, and we actually studied this case.

GRACE: Yes.

DELONG: And profiling really was just in its infancy in late `70s, early `80s, so they were going with what knowledge they had. If that profile I`m imagining was probably enhanced over the years. They`re not always accurate. Most good FBI profiles run about 80 percent accurate. And about 25 percent of them actually lead to the identification of the person who`s eventually charged with the crime.

GRACE: Well, apparently in this case not only did some of the profiling help, but DNA came into play as well. We`ll find out where it came from and how it was matched up to Rader, now believed to be the BTK serial killer.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL CARLSTEDT, ATTENDS SAME CHURCH AS BTK SUSPECT: It`s beyond my comprehension. It`s beyond my belief that something like this could happen to somebody that I know. I`ve known Dennis through the years. He was one of the first people that we met when we moved to Wichita 30 years ago. And we met him at the church. And we continued a relationship with him and his wife and his family through the church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To some he was a great man. To others he was an eerie and overly meticulous city compliance officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was always constantly at our house or sitting across from my house taking pictures in the backyard, snooping around.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was crazy, absolutely crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, this quiet street has become a verifiable circus with media and curious onlookers flooding the area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Tonight, the reign of terror that has lasted nearly 30 years is over. We believe the BTK "Bind, Torture, Kill" killer is behind bars on a $10 million bond.

Now, Elizabeth, can you throw me that face one more time? How`d you like to run into this guy?

OK, very quickly, let me go out to Larry Hatteberg before I speak to the John Wayne Gacy prosecutor.

Hey, Larry, tell me, what`s the status of the DNA. Where did it come from? I know that this guy masturbated on some of his victims. I assume that was preserved, even though, you know, back in the `70s, early `80s, we didn`t have DNA to prosecute a case? But how did they compare it and figure out it was this guy?

HATTEBERG: Right. That DNA was preserved back from the `70s and `80s by the Wichita Police Department. Our understanding is that the FBI contacted the daughter and obtained a DNA sample from the daughter. Now we are unclear how they obtained that sample. That is still yet to be sorted out.

And what they found when they took that sample -- as you know, in the DNA, there is the DNA that makes you -- that is unique to who you are. But there is also the family portion of the DNA. And it was the family portion of the DNA that they actually, when they took it to the lab, that actually hit. And so it started to narrow it down to the suspect`s family.

The daughter had no idea that it was her dad that they were looking for. There was one rumor out there that the daughter actually came to authorities and said perhaps it`s my dad. That is not true. That did not happen. So authorities had that DNA...

GRACE: But how did they zero in on him, Larry? How did they zero in on him? You`ve got to -- when you have DNA, everybody, you have got to have something to compare it to.

HATTEBERG: Well, they had her DNA and then they had the DNA from the crime scenes that they compared those two together.

GRACE: But how did they point to him?

HATTEBERG: Because they had other evidence.

GRACE: Got you.

HATTEBERG: In the last communication that was dropped off at a Wichita television station, it contained a floppy disc. And on that floppy disc was information about the church he was attending.

GRACE: Oh, OK, never mind.

HATTEBERG: And so they were able to go to the church and make a connection.

GRACE: Never mind. That says it all right there.

Let me quickly go to Terry Sullivan. Larry Hatteberg is filling us in.

Terry, you had one of the most successful prosecutions of a serial killer ever known. Gacy, one of the most prolific serial killers in the world. How do you compare Rader to Gacy?

TERRY SULLIVAN, PROSECUTOR OF JOHN WAYNE GACY: Well, I think there are an awful lot of comparisons. You know, when you talk about one of the neighbors out there in Wichita who said that, "My god, how weird it is that he`s been here all this long time." We had the same thing after we indicted Gacy.

You know, so many of the people, he`s so -- as somebody put it, he wears a mask of sanity, just blends in. There are a lot of similarities real briefly. You have got the same thing in the Wichita case that you had in the Gacy case in that you`ve got this guy who was neighbor, just living in a regular neighborhood with a regular job. Someone who had a minor job in government. You`re laughing about him being a dogcatcher. Well, Gacy was an assistant precinct captain in politics. And what that...

GRACE: Hey, hey, wait a minute. I wasn`t laughing. I said it was -- the whole thing creepy. And then he was going around, Terry, and measuring people`s grass with a ruler to see if it was too tall.

SULLIVAN: But you should be able to laugh. Because in Congress, laugh, because I would do the same thing because of this: Both he and Gacy, by those little tiny jobs, were able to get badges, which you mentioned. And those badges gave him -- we know that many, many of Gacy`s victims, if not all of them, were because of the fact that he used a badge. Other things that were similar, though, Nancy...

GRACE: Oh, that`s a good thought, Terry, because this guy, Rader, probably got into the victim`s homes by flashing the dogcatcher badge or the compliance officer badge. I see it.

SULLIVAN: And I`m one of those who`s not so sure that even we had all of the victims in the 33 in Chicago with Gacy.

And one last thing: Don`t forgot that both of these guys, in fact all of these serial murders that I go back on, whether you`re talking about Bundy or Berkowitz, the Son of Sam, but certainly Gacy, and then this guy. None of them were dumb. This guy had a bachelor`s degree in, get this, the administration of justice.

So none of them are dumb, even though the investigators apparently thought that they had some crazed person like Manson. You don`t really find that in serial killers, do you?

GRACE: No. And I`m thinking back on like Ted Bundy, Gacy, this guy, so many of them blend in, some of them attractive, likable. It`s mind- boggling.

SULLIVAN: It really is. It really is. And then the people find that out later on. You won`t believe the people that still today will come up to me and say, "You know, I knew him back then. And he pumped gas, or my nephew worked for him." I mean, some of these people that just say, my god, how close he came to being one of the victims. And it`s probably the same thing here.

GRACE: Daniel Horowitz, you`re going to stay with us. But I guess that, as a defense lawyer, you would go with insanity with this guy? I mean, you have got the DNA.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it`s insanity based upon brain injury or brain damage. This man`s brain is not normal. And we cannot lash out against him as if he`s a calculated, deliberate, one miserable killer. He`s a combination of a tortured human being who, when his mental illness and structural brain damage takes over. And he resists it, but when he can`t, then he kills.

We have to keep him away from others, but we can`t demonize him because he`s a tortured human being as well.

GRACE: You`re torturing me right now, Daniel Horowitz.

Very quickly, Larry, is there a death penalty in that jurisdiction?

SULLIVAN: There is a death penalty in the jurisdiction if the crime occurred after 1994 here in Kansas. So any murder that BTK committed, he would only get the death penalty on the murder after 1994, if it was committed after that date.

GRACE: So Andy Kahan, this guy`s not going to face the death penalty. He`s going to sit behind bars like all your other peeps and sell his fingernails for money?

KAHAN: He`s going to -- I guarantee you he`s going to be marketing himself, proliferating himself. And I`ll tell you, from a victim`s perspective, there is nothing more nauseating and disgusting than to find out the person who murdered one of your loved ones now has items being hawked by third parties for pure profit. No one should be able to rob, rape and murder and then turn around and make a buck off of it.

GRACE: Ten dead people.

KAHAN: And there`s no doubt in my mind that this is what he`s going to do.

GRACE: Ten dead people and one of the little boys, Andy, came home from school to find his sister naked, hanging in the basement. And this guy had masturbated on her, OK? That`s who BTK is.

You know, Horowitz, you can call him tortured all you want to, but -- OK, you know what? We`re going to a break.

As we go to break, I want to remind you, we`ve been "Trial Tracking" the Sarah Johnson case. Remember the 16-year-old Idaho girl? She`s on trial for murdering her parents. They had disapproved of her 19-year-old high school dropout illegal alien boyfriend. Well, she`s back in court today. The prosecution we expect will rest their case this week. Still slated to take the stand, Sarah Johnson`s own brother.

When we come back, the father and mother of the missing nine-year-old girl, Jessica Lunsford, and the first look inside Jessica`s bedroom. Her mom and dad speak out tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK LUNSFORD, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: I`m sure that a lot of you have little girls that are adorable. And they have the most wonderful personality. They can make you smile when you need it the most. And when you`re hurting and you hug them, they can make you feel better. And I need my hug.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, from Homosassa, Florida, nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford`s father, Mark Lunsford. And tonight, for the first time, her mother, Angela Bryant, is speaking out. They are reaching out to us, the public, for help finding their little girl, nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford.

Also with us from San Francisco, our good friend, Marc Klaas, victims` rights advocate and crime victim. His daughter, Polly, was abducted and murdered. Marc Klaas is a tireless crusader. And that`s just what we need tonight.

Let`s go straight out -- I want to show you first video of Jessica`s bedroom. Now, this is heartbreaking, just like -- this reminds me so much of my little niece. Let`s see. What is that? Her bed with a little coverlet on it, her little stuffed animals. She was a collector of dolls. In fact, she was last seen with a doll her father won for her at the fair. A lot of her artwork, hearts with smileys on them, all of this is from Jessica Lunsford`s bedroom. This is the bedroom where apparently someone walked in and took little Jessica out.

Tonight, please help us. Let me go first to Angela Bryant.

Angela, what can you tell us tonight about the search?

ANGELA BRYANT, JESSICA LUNSFORD`S MOTHER: Not a whole lot. I don`t really know a whole lot yet.

GRACE: Well, police have got to be telling you something. You`re the girl`s mother.

BRYANT: Yes, I am her mother. But the only thing I know is that you`ll have to ask them. I know they took the ground search off today. But the command post is still out here beside her grandmother`s house.

GRACE: Mark Lunsford, what can you tell us about the investigation, please?

MARK LUNSFORD, JESSICA LUNSFORD`S FATHER: Well, what I can tell you is, you know, first I want to tell you that, you know, sometimes we`re not here because we`re out putting out flyers and trying to get in touch with everybody.

As far as the investigation, from my understanding, the ground search is stopping today. But you have to understand, they`re not stopping. I mean, this is just the end of phase one. The sheriff has covered the areas that he needs to cover. And now it`s time to say, "Move on to phase two."

GRACE: Have they asked you guys to take a voice stress test, Mark?

LUNSFORD: Well, yes, of course. I mean, you know as well as I do, it`s all about a process of information -- process of -- you know what I`m saying, process of elimination. Everyone has to be eliminated. I have to...

GRACE: Marc Klaas, that`s correct, right?

MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Excuse me?

GRACE: Hold on. Guys, I have got to go to break.

I`ll be right back with you, sir.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi. Let`s get right to your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

There are no specifics on when, where or how, but officials say Al Qaeda may be planning to attack the U.S. again. The Department of Homeland Security says officials have intercepts communication believed to be between Osama bin Laden and his top operative in Iraq, Abu Musab al- Zarqawi. Bin Laden may be enlisting Zarqawi`s help to coordinate attacks outside of Iraq. There are no plans though right now to raise the terror alert level.

A late season snow storm is causing big headaches for the northeast. The National Weather Service predicts between 10 and 14 inches of snow for parts of New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. In Western Virginia, the storm is being blamed for 100 traffic accidents.

Millionaire Steve Fossett wants to cross off another aviation first on his adventures list. Fossett is attempting to become the first person to make a solo trip in a single engine airplane around the world without stopping.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: If you look at the resources, I mean, maybe I`m a little frustrated internally for not finding anything. And I know you guys are frustrated because you want me to use this work. But let`s be honest, OK? You look at these resources, I have grave concern. I mean, I`m bringing people in from Utah. I`m bringing in people from Washington. I`ve got FBI, FDLE, I`m talking with the behavior specialists. So you can use the terminology. I can`t, for definition purposes, but I`m sure not treating this as a regular missing little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Apparently local authorities are running out of resources in their search for nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford. Thank you for being with us tonight. We`re going to continue showing Jessica`s picture. We are not giving up in the hope that maybe you can help us. Please take a look.

Marc Klaas, as you know, every hour counts. Explain.

KLAAS: Well, three-quarters of the children that are murdered as a result of a predatory situation are murdered within the first three hours. Another way to look at it is that a kidnapper taking a child from her home can disappear at the rate of a mile a minute, which means that, in this case, the individual could have circumnavigated the globe a couple of times. So it`s very hard to say, unless it`s very close to home, where this child might be and where this individual might be.

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford and his wife, they`re with us tonight. Angela Bryant, Mark Lunsford.

Let me go to you, Mr. Lunsford. OK, we know there was no forced entry. It`s a town of 2,300 people. I`m sure you`ve asked yourself all these questions before. It had to be somebody that knew her or had been watching her. What is your gut? What is your gut telling you about your little girl?

BRYANT: She`s out there somewhere. And it`s just very confusing and aggravating, but I know she`s going to come home. It`s just it`s hard to explain.

GRACE: Mark, what can you tell us? I mean, this had to be somebody that knew her or saw her or stalked her.

LUNSFORD: Well, I mean, as far as stalking, nobody can recall, that I know of, of any strangers.

GRACE: I`m not talking about a stranger, Mark. I`m not talking about a stranger. This is a little town...

LUNSFORD: I understand what you`re talking about.

GRACE: ... of 2,300, somebody that knew her.

LUNSFORD: Right, and what`s going on is all about the process of elimination. Everybody is being processed and eliminated, everybody. And I mean everybody.

And you know as well as I do, it starts from the inside. I`m first.

GRACE: That`s right.

LUNSFORD: You think they didn`t drill me, you think they didn`t interrogate me and make me feel this small. But that`s what they`ve got to do. And they`re doing it not to just me but to everybody they see fit.

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford, you are so right on.

And Marc Klaas, you know it, because when Polly was taken, they came after you. And you insisted that they take your polygraph, search your home, search your cars, search your garage, everything, so they could move on from you -- the obvious choice is someone within the family -- and look elsewhere.

What advice can you give Mr. Lunsford and Angela, his wife?

KLAAS: Well, thank you for asking -- or thank you for offering me this opportunity because there are a couple of points that I`d like to make. And the first point is we have to acknowledge the fact that this is not fair and then deal with it and then kind of move on with that.

I think that the first thing I can advise you to do is take care of your physical selves. Everyday you`re going to have to eat something and you`re going to have to sleep something. This morning, I heard Mark say that the last few days have been the worst days of his life. Unfortunately, it`s going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

And if one doesn`t take care of one`s self, the physical toll will take over and you will ultimately crash and burn, which can`t happen while you`re looking for your little girl.

Also, stay away from any kind of mind-altering drugs and alcohol during this entire ordeal. You will be called upon to make very critical decisions. And you want to be sure that you have full control of your faculties whenever something like that might happen.

Thirdly, you want to cooperate fully with law enforcement and the media. Obviously, Mark`s doing that. He`s gone through whatever they need to do to eliminate him. And he`ll continue to do that.

GRACE: And Marc...

KLAAS: They have to pull out some new pictures of the little girl so that people can get a better understanding of who she is.

Then, finally, listen, they have to beware of psychics, and they have to beware of tabloid journalists, and they have to beware of ambulance- chasing attorneys. Psychics have never solved a case despite what one might hear. Tabloid journalists are going to try to create a rift and they`ll make it be about the relationship between the mother and father, which will detract from the goal, which is finding the little girl.

And it`s the same with the attorneys. You don`t need an attorney. You just need to tell the truth. You need to make sure everybody understands what this is all about.

And then, finally, every morning when you get up, you have to understand that something has to be done to help bring her home. It will help keep you mentally fit. It`ll help keep you psychologically focused. And it will certainly ultimately assist in the recovery of your daughter.

And finally, never give up hope.

GRACE: Marc, thank you so much, because you lived through this whole thing.

Very quickly, back to Angela Bryant, this is Jessica`s mother. I understand you have been out, even tonight, putting up flyers, joining in the search. What have you been doing to bring your little girl home?

BRYANT: Just look for her, doing everything that I can, just whatever it takes to bring her home, bring her back to us, you know.

GRACE: And to you, Mark, what have you been doing to try to find Jessica? I can look at you and tell. You look like you`ve lost about 15 pounds since I first met you. You look exhausted. And it`s just killing me to look at you. What have you been doing to -- if somebody told me your family member`s missing, where do you go and what do you do, Mark?

LUNSFORD: Well, you know, I mean, like the guy was saying, you know, about everything I need to do, it`s like you`re here with me because you know I`ve already done these things now because you just named them all off.

It`s hard, but all I can do is just keep asking you people. And I can`t ask you enough. I mean, my little girl`s coming home. And it`s because you`re helping me. And just because the sheriff leaves the area, the media one day is going to be gone, I still need you. And I mean, I can`t thank all of you enough, but I still need you.

GRACE: With us tonight, Angela -- go ahead, dear.

LUNSFORD: Well, and also, you know, these people out here that`s working, and you guys, and, I mean, they`re help me a lot by just letting me walk up and clear my mind of all this and, you know, talking to me, just giggling, whatever it takes so I can start fresh the next day with a clear mind, so I can start new plans and everything.

I mean, I just -- Marilyn (ph), all of you, the camera crews, everybody, NBC, ABC, I can`t even name all you people. And all of you, if you will just take -- jessicamarielunsford.com, get one picture of Jessie and send it to somebody, I don`t care, anybody you know, send it to them and ask them to do the same.

We have to cover everything because my little girl`s coming home. And I have faith. You have to have faith. Just pray, just pray, and God`s listening. And, I mean, you got to help me, please. I mean, I can`t beg you enough. I`m taking up this lady`s airtime and I`m begging, you know. I just need your help. And I need you to do the same thing. When you go home tonight, send one to one of your friends.

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford, I will. Thank you, Mark.

LUNSFORD: Thank you so much.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

And thank you, Angela. I know you have been out today searching by foot for your little girl.

Marc, thank you.

When we come back, we`re going to switch gears.

But, Elizabeth, let me ask you, as we go to break, could you show Jessie`s picture one more time, please?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Take a look at this. This is what I did this weekend. This is the grand jury testimony in the Michael Jackson case. I`m on page three.

Dusty, look at this thing. Look at this. It`s huge. This is the grand jury testimony. And I`ve really -- it`s extensive.

You know, the Michael Jackson case kicked off today with opening statements. State`s first witness we believe will be Martin Bashir. Remember him? He was the mastermind behind that BBC documentary that blew the Michael Jackson case wide open. If you don`t believe me, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN BASHIR, ABC CORRESPONDENT: Is that really appropriate for a man, a grown man, to be doing that? How you do respond to them?

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I feel sorry for them, because that`s judging someone who wants to really help people. Why can`t you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, if my brother, who is about 48 years old, announced he was having a sleepover with all the neighborhood boys, I would call 911.

With us tonight, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell, defense attorneys Chris Pixley in Atlanta and, in New York, Richard Herman. And from L.A., psychologist, Bethany Marshall.

Let me go straight to you, Jane. Bring me up to date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE" CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a shootout at the OK Corral here in Santa Maria, .California. The battle of the Tom`s, you might call it. Tom Sneddon, guns blazing, Tom Mesereau, guns blazing, metaphorically speaking, and Michael Jackson showed up in a Wild West outfit, all in black with a shiny vest, a thin tie, the western shirt and what looked like a sheriff`s badge.

I think the symbolism was that it was kind of a shootout at the OK Corral here. And, well, we don`t know who won, but I have got to tell you that both sides were badly wounded. I mean, the shocking, shocking allegations by Tom Sneddon about some of the graphic sexual things that he alleges Michael Jackson did. And then by Tom Mesereau on the defense side in their opening statements, some of the shocking charges that this mother is a grifter out to snag a celebrity and that Michael Jackson was the mark.

GRACE: Well, could they both be true?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I absolutely think they both could be true. Water does have a tendency to find its own level, like attracts like. And it would make sense that the kind of person that Michael Jackson would attract would be this troubled woman, troubled children, troubled family.

GRACE: You know, when you said Michael Jackson wore a badge into the courtroom, you`re kidding, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I`m not kidding. He always wears regalia insignias. But this one was...

GRACE: A badge?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It was like a modernistic version of an old Wild West badge. And I do think that he was trying to send a signal...

GRACE: I`m trying to look at it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... kind of like high noon. It`s sort of like high noon when the two guys meet on the dusty street.

GRACE: Good lord.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they have a shootout. That was, I think, the symbolism that he was trying to project.

GRACE: Richard Herman, what gives, a badge, please?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have nothing to say about this badge. We all know Michael Jackson is "X Files." We know that. That`s a given. But does that make him a molester?

GRACE: Can`t they do anything with him? You wouldn`t let your client come in like that?

HERMAN: No, absolutely not. I would not let my client come in dressed in this Captain Crunch outfit that he wears everyday with the arm bands. It`s outrageous. And obviously, the attorney has no control over him.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, just give me the hard evidence Sneddon talked about in his opening. What does he have?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what he said was, on the very first visit to Neverland, these two boys got permission from their parents to stay in his bedroom overnight. And they were immediately given an Internet tour of porn with naked ladies. And a lot of this stuff I can`t repeat because the words are too vulgar really to say on television.

But at one point, they saw a woman with her shirt off. And Michael Jackson allegedly said, "Got milk?" It was stuff like that. Simulating sex allegedly on a giant mannequin of a female, tons of pornography that he apparently allegedly showed to the boys. And then, of course, the more serious stuff, allegedly naked, fully aroused in front of the boys. And then the four allegations of molestation, fondling and the one attempted -- and of course, the alcohol, the plying with alcohol. All of these allegations strongly and vigorously denied by Tom Sneddon -- by Tom Mesereau, rather.

GRACE: Chris Pixley, you have got your work cut out for you on this one.

CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, again, I`ve said from the very beginning, and Nancy, you and I have probably talked about this case 100 times on air already. And we`re just now in the opening statements. But the timeline is a serious problem for the state. You know, and Tom Sneddon today did not back off. He seems to say that, from the moment the Martin Bashir documentary came out, Nancy, the Neverland Ranch went on lockout. The only problem is, he admits that there was no molestation before the Bashir documentary came out.

GRACE: Chris, if this little boy can describe Michael Jackson`s penis, it`s over. You and your timeline can pack up and go home...

PIXLEY: Yes, but that`s not what we heard today.

GRACE: ... because there`s no way that that can -- there`s not an innocent explanation for that, Chris.

PIXLEY: Yes, well, we`ll wait and see if there`s an innocent explanation for it. If these children are actually living in Michael Jackson`s home, there may be one. I agree with you. I think that it`s far fetched to believe right now that Michael Jackson, if he`s described in this way and if the children in fact can make those kind of descriptions, is going to get away with this. But...

GRACE: Bye-bye, Michael, if that`s true, if it`s true.

Very quickly to psychologist Bethany Marshall. Bethany, a lot of people tend to excuse Michael Jackson because of his Peter Pan defense. He had a bad childhood. He wanted to relive it by having sleepovers with a bunch of little boys. What do you make of it?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. I think this is more of an argument for the prosecution rather than the defense because pedophiles long to return to childhood. They want to be a little kid. If you think of a pedophile, you can think of 6- to 10-year-old trapped in an adult`s body.

And what do little kids like? They like other little kids. They like theme parks. They like Gameboys. They like anything that has to do with childhood. So when a pedophile has sex with another kid, it`s kind of like mutual sex or sex play amongst children.

GRACE: Except that one is allegedly 45-years-old.

MARSHALL: That`s right.

GRACE: Mr. Herman?

HERMAN: Nancy, I`m sorry, this case rises and falls on the credibility and the testimony of this young accuser. And Tom Mesereau is going to do a blistering cross-examination.

You know, Nancy, if he falls apart...

GRACE: Horrible.

HERMAN: ... on cross, case is over. Michael wins.

GRACE: What about it, Jane Velez-Mitchell? It`s going to boil down to a credibility contest between a superstar, if he takes the stand, and this kid. Or will it be between Michael Jackson and the mother?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think it may very well be between Michael Jackson and the mother. Tom Mesereau, I have to say, I think did a brilliant job today. He showed how he`s really, really going to take the gloves off when it comes to this mother.

And he said, "She is just a grifter." He mentioned a lot of celebrities who he claims will take the witness stand and say, "Yes, she tried to grift me. I gave her $20,000," apparently one said, or will say, "for medical expenses and to build something in her home. And she got a big TV set. And I don`t know where the rest of the money went." And it goes on and on like that.

The J.C. Penney`s lawsuit where she accused guards of groping her and falsely imprisoning her, very similar charges to the charges that this family is leveling against Michael Jackson. So they have big problems with this family. But if they get prior alleged bad acts in and other kids from the past come in and say similar stories...

GRACE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... that could be the nail in the coffin for this case.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell at the courthouse. As you know, local news is next for some of you. But we`ll be right back.

And remember, I will bring you live coverage of the Sarah Johnson, the Idaho girl, trial tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim, have a story to tell, know of an injustice, or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472- 2301, or visit our Web site at CNN.com/Nancygrace.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Very quickly, straight out to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, who will be the first state`s witness?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Martin Bashir up, and it could happen by noon tomorrow. And then he`s going to sort of set up the clip. Then we`re likely to see the "Living with Michael Jackson" documentary, which might as well have been produced by the prosecution, devastating documentary for Michael Jackson.

GRACE: And Jane, why do you say 12:00? Whey aren`t they putting the witness on before 12:00 noon?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, no, I`m just giving extra time for Tom Mesereau to finish his opening statements. He`s going to pick up tomorrow morning. And I don`t think there`s a hard cutoff for it. It could go on a little while. Though with a break, it could start even earlier tomorrow.

GRACE: And Chris Pixley, very quickly, it`s very difficult to keep your flow in an opening statement when you have an overnight break.

PIXLEY: Yes, it is. By the same token, Nancy, I think the openings may be of a little less value in this case simply because they`re telling us that it`s going to last for six months. I think it`s important to hit the ground running, obviously. You want to build a relationship with the jury. You want to build a relationship of trust. But a lot of this is actually going to be forgotten when it`s all said and done.

GRACE: And very quickly, how cross-examine Bashir?

HERMAN: Oh, Bashir, why did he do the documentary to begin with? For money, to make money.

GRACE: Well, the Constitution protects people from police, but not from a documentary person.

HERMAN: The more sensational Bashir can be, the more money he`s going to make.

GRACE: Thanks to all of my guests. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I want to thank you for being with us and inviting us into your home.

Up next, the latest headlines from around the world. I hope you join us here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock Eastern. And until then, good night, friend. We`re going to go out with a shot of Jessica`s home.

END


Aired February 28, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, "Bind, Torture, Kill": Last week, we took to the airways asking for your help. Then, after 20 long years, it looks like the BTK killer is behind bars tonight. We go live for the latest. And will he face the death penalty?
And also tonight, we`re not giving up on Jessica Marie Lunsford, the nine-year-old little Florida girl. Tonight, Jessica`s father and mother speak out.

And finally, it`s been a long time coming and some court watchers say as long as 1993. Believe it or not, opening statements in the child molestation case against an American icon, Michael Jackson. Is the prosecution making headway or will Michael Jackson "Beat It"?

Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Did DNA evidence bring an end to the BTK killer`s 30-year reign of fear? Wichita police have Dennis Rader. He`s a husband -- take a look at this guy -- husband, father, church member, voted an elder in the church -- I`ll find out what means -- Cub Scout leader. Well, he`s also an inmate.

Also tonight, please help us. Nine-year-old Jessica Marie Lunsford still missing, last seen wearing a pink nightgown, no shoes. It`s been five long days since Jessica went missing from her bedroom in a Florida home. The search is going on, but police are still unable, they say, to determine if this was an abduction or if this little child left her bedroom on her own. Are they crazy?

And finally, Michael Jackson`s trial has kicked off with heated opening statements.

But first, let`s go out to Wichita on the BTK killer case. KAKE-TV`s Larry Hatteberg is with us.

Larry, welcome. As of tonight, what`s the latest, friend?

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV: Well, the latest is that BTK suspect Dennis Rader will make his first court appearance tomorrow in a Sedgwick County courtroom. He`s currently being held in the Sedgwick County Jail on a $10 million bond, that is $1 million for each of the ten counts of first-degree murder that he`s expected to be charged with. So that is the very latest.

GRACE: You know, Larry, a lot of people don`t get that. When I first started prosecuting, I didn`t either. When you say $10 million, you would think somebody would have to dig up $10 million, which of course nobody can, but really a bond is just 10 percent of what the judge thinks. Now, I don`t think this guy is going to bond out. What does he do for a living?

HATTEBERG: What he does for a living, is he was a compliance officer for the city of Park City. Park City a bedroom suburb of Wichita. And he worked for the city of Park City. And he was kind of a little bit of jack of all trades. He was kind of in charge of the dogcatcher there. And if there were old cars that needed to be removed from around your house, he made sure that he wrote out a citation for that and...

GRACE: The dogcatcher?

HATTEBERG: Yes, right. That`s exactly. He was Park...

GRACE: You know, I know this is going to make a lot of people mad, but when I think dogcatcher, I have very bad connotations.

HATTEBERG: Well, we have very bad connotations now in the Wichita area because he was responsible for that. He was one of their supervisors and probably occasionally picked up animals.

But he was also a compliance officer. And we have an interesting picture of Dennis Rader right now, because some people really liked the man and other people really hated him. His congregation -- he was the president of his Lutheran Church congregation here in Wichita. And the people there were absolutely devastated. They could not believe that this was the same man who sat in their pews and was really known as a worker do- be.

GRACE: A nice guy?

HATTEBERG: He would do anything in the church. And then we have the other side of him that, when he put on the badge and became the compliance officer, he really became a...

GRACE: You mean the dogcatcher compliance badge? It sounds like Barney Fife.

HATTEBERG: Well, I don`t know if it was Barney Fife, but really had this demeanor for many people there in which they didn`t like him. When he came over to their house, we had one report where he was measuring the length of grass in the front yard...

GRACE: With a ruler?

HATTEBERG: ... and writing citations because of that.

GRACE: With a ruler?

HATTEBERG: Yes, that`s correct.

GRACE: OK, you mentioned his church, Larry.

With us, KAKE anchor Larry Hatteberg, with the latest on the BTK killer, "Bind, Torture, Kill."

Take a listen to this, Larry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FREYJA CARLSTEDT, ATTENDS SAME CHURCH AS BTK SUSPECT: I think my mind is numb. I mean, we just -- when we found out, all`s we could say was, "That`s impossible. It couldn`t be." I mean, people we`re hearing about on television is not the person that we knew. The person that we knew was kind, he was a hard worker, he was willing to help and do anything at this church. Obviously, we all respected him or he wouldn`t have been president of our church. So to try to picture him in this way, I can`t.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Larry, this is what is doubly scary to many people. OK, we know he`s charged with ten murders. We know that, at least authorities believe, I don`t believe, there has been a period of dormancy where he has not struck. The fact that he started sending messages to me indicates that he was about to crank back up again. What do you think, Larry?

HATTEBERG: Well, it could have been. I mean, there are a million theories about why he started back up. And there have been 11 communications from BTK since last March. Three of those communications came right here to this television station here.

Now, we know that he loved publicity. He loved seeing his name on the network shows. He loved seeing his name in the newspaper...

GRACE: Yes.

HATTEBERG: ... and particular on the local channels here. He loved that. He lived for that publicity.

Early in the 1970s, he wrote us a letter, because he had previously written a letter to the newspaper that they had not yet published. So he wrote us a letter and he said, quote, "How many more people do I have to kill before I get my name in the paper?"

GRACE: "How many more people do I have to kill before get my name in the paper?" OK, you know what, Larry? I know you are a journalist. But you see where this is headed, right?

HATTEBERG: I see where you`re going, Nancy.

GRACE: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Hey, I`m not going there. This guy held down a regular job. His community, his church community, his neighbors, his family, all -- no, this guy is not insane.

Hey, don`t move, Larry. I want you to stay with us.

Now joining us, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz. Also with us, the prosecutor who sent the killer clown, serial killer, John Wayne Gacy, to death. His name is Terry Sullivan. And I still congratulate you on that, Terry -- former FBI agent and profiler, Candice DeLong, and from Houston, victims` rights advocate, Andy Kahan.

Andy monitors murderabilia, people selling and buying souvenirs from serial killers.

And let me tell you tonight sales are brisk on-line with BTK memorabilia. Andy, incredible. What have you found?

ANDY KAHAN, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, within a few hours, after they announced the arrest of Dennis Rader, eBay was being flooded with personalized items, that unfortunately many people in the Wichita...

GRACE: Sick, sick, sick.

KAHAN: It`s absolutely -- if you had a signature with Dennis Rader`s name on it, and they were selling compliance notices that he sent out, and they were getting $300 or $400 bucks a pop for it, business cards...

GRACE: $400 for an alleged serial killer`s autograph? You know, didn`t you just fight this battle a couple years ago, Andy?

KAHAN: We fought the battle in several states. And this is something I would encourage the people of Kansas. They need to enact what we call a notoriety-for-profit law. Because this is just the beginning of the marketing and merchandising of BTK...

GRACE: ... of the BTK killer.

KAHAN: And as the TV guy stated, this guy loves the attention. He seeks the attention. He wants immortality, infamy. And it`s just a matter of time before the real dealers get to him and they start cutting deals for profit.

GRACE: Andy, I have got to go to break. But have you notified eBay, the giant? You know, people make money from advertising on eBay. EBay gets a cut of every sale, if I`m correct? Have you notified them?

KAHAN: Yes, they were notified. And they`ve actually pulled the personalized items. But what`s going to happen now is the murderabilia dealers are going to get a hold of Rader and they`re going to put it up on their own Web sites. And here we go again.

GRACE: Here we go again.

Everybody, we`re going to get down into the nitty gritty of who BTK is. Guess what? A lot of the profiles that were done 20 years ago have turned out to be totally wrong. Little bits and pieces of them are right. We`ll be talking to our panel, as well as the guy who has been on this story for a long, long time, many years.

Tonight, fingers crossed, BTK killer behind bars.

Very quickly, Candice DeLong, what do you think about the former profilers?

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, I`m not exactly sure which ones you`re talking about. There are a lot of people out there calling themselves profilers, putting out profiles that really have no special training in it. I was in profiling school for the first time in 1985, and we actually studied this case.

GRACE: Yes.

DELONG: And profiling really was just in its infancy in late `70s, early `80s, so they were going with what knowledge they had. If that profile I`m imagining was probably enhanced over the years. They`re not always accurate. Most good FBI profiles run about 80 percent accurate. And about 25 percent of them actually lead to the identification of the person who`s eventually charged with the crime.

GRACE: Well, apparently in this case not only did some of the profiling help, but DNA came into play as well. We`ll find out where it came from and how it was matched up to Rader, now believed to be the BTK serial killer.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL CARLSTEDT, ATTENDS SAME CHURCH AS BTK SUSPECT: It`s beyond my comprehension. It`s beyond my belief that something like this could happen to somebody that I know. I`ve known Dennis through the years. He was one of the first people that we met when we moved to Wichita 30 years ago. And we met him at the church. And we continued a relationship with him and his wife and his family through the church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To some he was a great man. To others he was an eerie and overly meticulous city compliance officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was always constantly at our house or sitting across from my house taking pictures in the backyard, snooping around.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was crazy, absolutely crazy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, this quiet street has become a verifiable circus with media and curious onlookers flooding the area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Tonight, the reign of terror that has lasted nearly 30 years is over. We believe the BTK "Bind, Torture, Kill" killer is behind bars on a $10 million bond.

Now, Elizabeth, can you throw me that face one more time? How`d you like to run into this guy?

OK, very quickly, let me go out to Larry Hatteberg before I speak to the John Wayne Gacy prosecutor.

Hey, Larry, tell me, what`s the status of the DNA. Where did it come from? I know that this guy masturbated on some of his victims. I assume that was preserved, even though, you know, back in the `70s, early `80s, we didn`t have DNA to prosecute a case? But how did they compare it and figure out it was this guy?

HATTEBERG: Right. That DNA was preserved back from the `70s and `80s by the Wichita Police Department. Our understanding is that the FBI contacted the daughter and obtained a DNA sample from the daughter. Now we are unclear how they obtained that sample. That is still yet to be sorted out.

And what they found when they took that sample -- as you know, in the DNA, there is the DNA that makes you -- that is unique to who you are. But there is also the family portion of the DNA. And it was the family portion of the DNA that they actually, when they took it to the lab, that actually hit. And so it started to narrow it down to the suspect`s family.

The daughter had no idea that it was her dad that they were looking for. There was one rumor out there that the daughter actually came to authorities and said perhaps it`s my dad. That is not true. That did not happen. So authorities had that DNA...

GRACE: But how did they zero in on him, Larry? How did they zero in on him? You`ve got to -- when you have DNA, everybody, you have got to have something to compare it to.

HATTEBERG: Well, they had her DNA and then they had the DNA from the crime scenes that they compared those two together.

GRACE: But how did they point to him?

HATTEBERG: Because they had other evidence.

GRACE: Got you.

HATTEBERG: In the last communication that was dropped off at a Wichita television station, it contained a floppy disc. And on that floppy disc was information about the church he was attending.

GRACE: Oh, OK, never mind.

HATTEBERG: And so they were able to go to the church and make a connection.

GRACE: Never mind. That says it all right there.

Let me quickly go to Terry Sullivan. Larry Hatteberg is filling us in.

Terry, you had one of the most successful prosecutions of a serial killer ever known. Gacy, one of the most prolific serial killers in the world. How do you compare Rader to Gacy?

TERRY SULLIVAN, PROSECUTOR OF JOHN WAYNE GACY: Well, I think there are an awful lot of comparisons. You know, when you talk about one of the neighbors out there in Wichita who said that, "My god, how weird it is that he`s been here all this long time." We had the same thing after we indicted Gacy.

You know, so many of the people, he`s so -- as somebody put it, he wears a mask of sanity, just blends in. There are a lot of similarities real briefly. You have got the same thing in the Wichita case that you had in the Gacy case in that you`ve got this guy who was neighbor, just living in a regular neighborhood with a regular job. Someone who had a minor job in government. You`re laughing about him being a dogcatcher. Well, Gacy was an assistant precinct captain in politics. And what that...

GRACE: Hey, hey, wait a minute. I wasn`t laughing. I said it was -- the whole thing creepy. And then he was going around, Terry, and measuring people`s grass with a ruler to see if it was too tall.

SULLIVAN: But you should be able to laugh. Because in Congress, laugh, because I would do the same thing because of this: Both he and Gacy, by those little tiny jobs, were able to get badges, which you mentioned. And those badges gave him -- we know that many, many of Gacy`s victims, if not all of them, were because of the fact that he used a badge. Other things that were similar, though, Nancy...

GRACE: Oh, that`s a good thought, Terry, because this guy, Rader, probably got into the victim`s homes by flashing the dogcatcher badge or the compliance officer badge. I see it.

SULLIVAN: And I`m one of those who`s not so sure that even we had all of the victims in the 33 in Chicago with Gacy.

And one last thing: Don`t forgot that both of these guys, in fact all of these serial murders that I go back on, whether you`re talking about Bundy or Berkowitz, the Son of Sam, but certainly Gacy, and then this guy. None of them were dumb. This guy had a bachelor`s degree in, get this, the administration of justice.

So none of them are dumb, even though the investigators apparently thought that they had some crazed person like Manson. You don`t really find that in serial killers, do you?

GRACE: No. And I`m thinking back on like Ted Bundy, Gacy, this guy, so many of them blend in, some of them attractive, likable. It`s mind- boggling.

SULLIVAN: It really is. It really is. And then the people find that out later on. You won`t believe the people that still today will come up to me and say, "You know, I knew him back then. And he pumped gas, or my nephew worked for him." I mean, some of these people that just say, my god, how close he came to being one of the victims. And it`s probably the same thing here.

GRACE: Daniel Horowitz, you`re going to stay with us. But I guess that, as a defense lawyer, you would go with insanity with this guy? I mean, you have got the DNA.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it`s insanity based upon brain injury or brain damage. This man`s brain is not normal. And we cannot lash out against him as if he`s a calculated, deliberate, one miserable killer. He`s a combination of a tortured human being who, when his mental illness and structural brain damage takes over. And he resists it, but when he can`t, then he kills.

We have to keep him away from others, but we can`t demonize him because he`s a tortured human being as well.

GRACE: You`re torturing me right now, Daniel Horowitz.

Very quickly, Larry, is there a death penalty in that jurisdiction?

SULLIVAN: There is a death penalty in the jurisdiction if the crime occurred after 1994 here in Kansas. So any murder that BTK committed, he would only get the death penalty on the murder after 1994, if it was committed after that date.

GRACE: So Andy Kahan, this guy`s not going to face the death penalty. He`s going to sit behind bars like all your other peeps and sell his fingernails for money?

KAHAN: He`s going to -- I guarantee you he`s going to be marketing himself, proliferating himself. And I`ll tell you, from a victim`s perspective, there is nothing more nauseating and disgusting than to find out the person who murdered one of your loved ones now has items being hawked by third parties for pure profit. No one should be able to rob, rape and murder and then turn around and make a buck off of it.

GRACE: Ten dead people.

KAHAN: And there`s no doubt in my mind that this is what he`s going to do.

GRACE: Ten dead people and one of the little boys, Andy, came home from school to find his sister naked, hanging in the basement. And this guy had masturbated on her, OK? That`s who BTK is.

You know, Horowitz, you can call him tortured all you want to, but -- OK, you know what? We`re going to a break.

As we go to break, I want to remind you, we`ve been "Trial Tracking" the Sarah Johnson case. Remember the 16-year-old Idaho girl? She`s on trial for murdering her parents. They had disapproved of her 19-year-old high school dropout illegal alien boyfriend. Well, she`s back in court today. The prosecution we expect will rest their case this week. Still slated to take the stand, Sarah Johnson`s own brother.

When we come back, the father and mother of the missing nine-year-old girl, Jessica Lunsford, and the first look inside Jessica`s bedroom. Her mom and dad speak out tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK LUNSFORD, MISSING GIRL`S FATHER: I`m sure that a lot of you have little girls that are adorable. And they have the most wonderful personality. They can make you smile when you need it the most. And when you`re hurting and you hug them, they can make you feel better. And I need my hug.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, from Homosassa, Florida, nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford`s father, Mark Lunsford. And tonight, for the first time, her mother, Angela Bryant, is speaking out. They are reaching out to us, the public, for help finding their little girl, nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford.

Also with us from San Francisco, our good friend, Marc Klaas, victims` rights advocate and crime victim. His daughter, Polly, was abducted and murdered. Marc Klaas is a tireless crusader. And that`s just what we need tonight.

Let`s go straight out -- I want to show you first video of Jessica`s bedroom. Now, this is heartbreaking, just like -- this reminds me so much of my little niece. Let`s see. What is that? Her bed with a little coverlet on it, her little stuffed animals. She was a collector of dolls. In fact, she was last seen with a doll her father won for her at the fair. A lot of her artwork, hearts with smileys on them, all of this is from Jessica Lunsford`s bedroom. This is the bedroom where apparently someone walked in and took little Jessica out.

Tonight, please help us. Let me go first to Angela Bryant.

Angela, what can you tell us tonight about the search?

ANGELA BRYANT, JESSICA LUNSFORD`S MOTHER: Not a whole lot. I don`t really know a whole lot yet.

GRACE: Well, police have got to be telling you something. You`re the girl`s mother.

BRYANT: Yes, I am her mother. But the only thing I know is that you`ll have to ask them. I know they took the ground search off today. But the command post is still out here beside her grandmother`s house.

GRACE: Mark Lunsford, what can you tell us about the investigation, please?

MARK LUNSFORD, JESSICA LUNSFORD`S FATHER: Well, what I can tell you is, you know, first I want to tell you that, you know, sometimes we`re not here because we`re out putting out flyers and trying to get in touch with everybody.

As far as the investigation, from my understanding, the ground search is stopping today. But you have to understand, they`re not stopping. I mean, this is just the end of phase one. The sheriff has covered the areas that he needs to cover. And now it`s time to say, "Move on to phase two."

GRACE: Have they asked you guys to take a voice stress test, Mark?

LUNSFORD: Well, yes, of course. I mean, you know as well as I do, it`s all about a process of information -- process of -- you know what I`m saying, process of elimination. Everyone has to be eliminated. I have to...

GRACE: Marc Klaas, that`s correct, right?

MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Excuse me?

GRACE: Hold on. Guys, I have got to go to break.

I`ll be right back with you, sir.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Sophia Choi. Let`s get right to your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

There are no specifics on when, where or how, but officials say Al Qaeda may be planning to attack the U.S. again. The Department of Homeland Security says officials have intercepts communication believed to be between Osama bin Laden and his top operative in Iraq, Abu Musab al- Zarqawi. Bin Laden may be enlisting Zarqawi`s help to coordinate attacks outside of Iraq. There are no plans though right now to raise the terror alert level.

A late season snow storm is causing big headaches for the northeast. The National Weather Service predicts between 10 and 14 inches of snow for parts of New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. In Western Virginia, the storm is being blamed for 100 traffic accidents.

Millionaire Steve Fossett wants to cross off another aviation first on his adventures list. Fossett is attempting to become the first person to make a solo trip in a single engine airplane around the world without stopping.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPT.: If you look at the resources, I mean, maybe I`m a little frustrated internally for not finding anything. And I know you guys are frustrated because you want me to use this work. But let`s be honest, OK? You look at these resources, I have grave concern. I mean, I`m bringing people in from Utah. I`m bringing in people from Washington. I`ve got FBI, FDLE, I`m talking with the behavior specialists. So you can use the terminology. I can`t, for definition purposes, but I`m sure not treating this as a regular missing little girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Apparently local authorities are running out of resources in their search for nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford. Thank you for being with us tonight. We`re going to continue showing Jessica`s picture. We are not giving up in the hope that maybe you can help us. Please take a look.

Marc Klaas, as you know, every hour counts. Explain.

KLAAS: Well, three-quarters of the children that are murdered as a result of a predatory situation are murdered within the first three hours. Another way to look at it is that a kidnapper taking a child from her home can disappear at the rate of a mile a minute, which means that, in this case, the individual could have circumnavigated the globe a couple of times. So it`s very hard to say, unless it`s very close to home, where this child might be and where this individual might be.

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford and his wife, they`re with us tonight. Angela Bryant, Mark Lunsford.

Let me go to you, Mr. Lunsford. OK, we know there was no forced entry. It`s a town of 2,300 people. I`m sure you`ve asked yourself all these questions before. It had to be somebody that knew her or had been watching her. What is your gut? What is your gut telling you about your little girl?

BRYANT: She`s out there somewhere. And it`s just very confusing and aggravating, but I know she`s going to come home. It`s just it`s hard to explain.

GRACE: Mark, what can you tell us? I mean, this had to be somebody that knew her or saw her or stalked her.

LUNSFORD: Well, I mean, as far as stalking, nobody can recall, that I know of, of any strangers.

GRACE: I`m not talking about a stranger, Mark. I`m not talking about a stranger. This is a little town...

LUNSFORD: I understand what you`re talking about.

GRACE: ... of 2,300, somebody that knew her.

LUNSFORD: Right, and what`s going on is all about the process of elimination. Everybody is being processed and eliminated, everybody. And I mean everybody.

And you know as well as I do, it starts from the inside. I`m first.

GRACE: That`s right.

LUNSFORD: You think they didn`t drill me, you think they didn`t interrogate me and make me feel this small. But that`s what they`ve got to do. And they`re doing it not to just me but to everybody they see fit.

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford, you are so right on.

And Marc Klaas, you know it, because when Polly was taken, they came after you. And you insisted that they take your polygraph, search your home, search your cars, search your garage, everything, so they could move on from you -- the obvious choice is someone within the family -- and look elsewhere.

What advice can you give Mr. Lunsford and Angela, his wife?

KLAAS: Well, thank you for asking -- or thank you for offering me this opportunity because there are a couple of points that I`d like to make. And the first point is we have to acknowledge the fact that this is not fair and then deal with it and then kind of move on with that.

I think that the first thing I can advise you to do is take care of your physical selves. Everyday you`re going to have to eat something and you`re going to have to sleep something. This morning, I heard Mark say that the last few days have been the worst days of his life. Unfortunately, it`s going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

And if one doesn`t take care of one`s self, the physical toll will take over and you will ultimately crash and burn, which can`t happen while you`re looking for your little girl.

Also, stay away from any kind of mind-altering drugs and alcohol during this entire ordeal. You will be called upon to make very critical decisions. And you want to be sure that you have full control of your faculties whenever something like that might happen.

Thirdly, you want to cooperate fully with law enforcement and the media. Obviously, Mark`s doing that. He`s gone through whatever they need to do to eliminate him. And he`ll continue to do that.

GRACE: And Marc...

KLAAS: They have to pull out some new pictures of the little girl so that people can get a better understanding of who she is.

Then, finally, listen, they have to beware of psychics, and they have to beware of tabloid journalists, and they have to beware of ambulance- chasing attorneys. Psychics have never solved a case despite what one might hear. Tabloid journalists are going to try to create a rift and they`ll make it be about the relationship between the mother and father, which will detract from the goal, which is finding the little girl.

And it`s the same with the attorneys. You don`t need an attorney. You just need to tell the truth. You need to make sure everybody understands what this is all about.

And then, finally, every morning when you get up, you have to understand that something has to be done to help bring her home. It will help keep you mentally fit. It`ll help keep you psychologically focused. And it will certainly ultimately assist in the recovery of your daughter.

And finally, never give up hope.

GRACE: Marc, thank you so much, because you lived through this whole thing.

Very quickly, back to Angela Bryant, this is Jessica`s mother. I understand you have been out, even tonight, putting up flyers, joining in the search. What have you been doing to bring your little girl home?

BRYANT: Just look for her, doing everything that I can, just whatever it takes to bring her home, bring her back to us, you know.

GRACE: And to you, Mark, what have you been doing to try to find Jessica? I can look at you and tell. You look like you`ve lost about 15 pounds since I first met you. You look exhausted. And it`s just killing me to look at you. What have you been doing to -- if somebody told me your family member`s missing, where do you go and what do you do, Mark?

LUNSFORD: Well, you know, I mean, like the guy was saying, you know, about everything I need to do, it`s like you`re here with me because you know I`ve already done these things now because you just named them all off.

It`s hard, but all I can do is just keep asking you people. And I can`t ask you enough. I mean, my little girl`s coming home. And it`s because you`re helping me. And just because the sheriff leaves the area, the media one day is going to be gone, I still need you. And I mean, I can`t thank all of you enough, but I still need you.

GRACE: With us tonight, Angela -- go ahead, dear.

LUNSFORD: Well, and also, you know, these people out here that`s working, and you guys, and, I mean, they`re help me a lot by just letting me walk up and clear my mind of all this and, you know, talking to me, just giggling, whatever it takes so I can start fresh the next day with a clear mind, so I can start new plans and everything.

I mean, I just -- Marilyn (ph), all of you, the camera crews, everybody, NBC, ABC, I can`t even name all you people. And all of you, if you will just take -- jessicamarielunsford.com, get one picture of Jessie and send it to somebody, I don`t care, anybody you know, send it to them and ask them to do the same.

We have to cover everything because my little girl`s coming home. And I have faith. You have to have faith. Just pray, just pray, and God`s listening. And, I mean, you got to help me, please. I mean, I can`t beg you enough. I`m taking up this lady`s airtime and I`m begging, you know. I just need your help. And I need you to do the same thing. When you go home tonight, send one to one of your friends.

GRACE: Mr. Lunsford, I will. Thank you, Mark.

LUNSFORD: Thank you so much.

GRACE: Yes, sir.

And thank you, Angela. I know you have been out today searching by foot for your little girl.

Marc, thank you.

When we come back, we`re going to switch gears.

But, Elizabeth, let me ask you, as we go to break, could you show Jessie`s picture one more time, please?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Take a look at this. This is what I did this weekend. This is the grand jury testimony in the Michael Jackson case. I`m on page three.

Dusty, look at this thing. Look at this. It`s huge. This is the grand jury testimony. And I`ve really -- it`s extensive.

You know, the Michael Jackson case kicked off today with opening statements. State`s first witness we believe will be Martin Bashir. Remember him? He was the mastermind behind that BBC documentary that blew the Michael Jackson case wide open. If you don`t believe me, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN BASHIR, ABC CORRESPONDENT: Is that really appropriate for a man, a grown man, to be doing that? How you do respond to them?

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I feel sorry for them, because that`s judging someone who wants to really help people. Why can`t you share your bed? The most loving thing to do is to share your bed with someone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, if my brother, who is about 48 years old, announced he was having a sleepover with all the neighborhood boys, I would call 911.

With us tonight, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell, defense attorneys Chris Pixley in Atlanta and, in New York, Richard Herman. And from L.A., psychologist, Bethany Marshall.

Let me go straight to you, Jane. Bring me up to date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE" CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was a shootout at the OK Corral here in Santa Maria, .California. The battle of the Tom`s, you might call it. Tom Sneddon, guns blazing, Tom Mesereau, guns blazing, metaphorically speaking, and Michael Jackson showed up in a Wild West outfit, all in black with a shiny vest, a thin tie, the western shirt and what looked like a sheriff`s badge.

I think the symbolism was that it was kind of a shootout at the OK Corral here. And, well, we don`t know who won, but I have got to tell you that both sides were badly wounded. I mean, the shocking, shocking allegations by Tom Sneddon about some of the graphic sexual things that he alleges Michael Jackson did. And then by Tom Mesereau on the defense side in their opening statements, some of the shocking charges that this mother is a grifter out to snag a celebrity and that Michael Jackson was the mark.

GRACE: Well, could they both be true?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I absolutely think they both could be true. Water does have a tendency to find its own level, like attracts like. And it would make sense that the kind of person that Michael Jackson would attract would be this troubled woman, troubled children, troubled family.

GRACE: You know, when you said Michael Jackson wore a badge into the courtroom, you`re kidding, right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I`m not kidding. He always wears regalia insignias. But this one was...

GRACE: A badge?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It was like a modernistic version of an old Wild West badge. And I do think that he was trying to send a signal...

GRACE: I`m trying to look at it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... kind of like high noon. It`s sort of like high noon when the two guys meet on the dusty street.

GRACE: Good lord.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they have a shootout. That was, I think, the symbolism that he was trying to project.

GRACE: Richard Herman, what gives, a badge, please?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I have nothing to say about this badge. We all know Michael Jackson is "X Files." We know that. That`s a given. But does that make him a molester?

GRACE: Can`t they do anything with him? You wouldn`t let your client come in like that?

HERMAN: No, absolutely not. I would not let my client come in dressed in this Captain Crunch outfit that he wears everyday with the arm bands. It`s outrageous. And obviously, the attorney has no control over him.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, just give me the hard evidence Sneddon talked about in his opening. What does he have?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, what he said was, on the very first visit to Neverland, these two boys got permission from their parents to stay in his bedroom overnight. And they were immediately given an Internet tour of porn with naked ladies. And a lot of this stuff I can`t repeat because the words are too vulgar really to say on television.

But at one point, they saw a woman with her shirt off. And Michael Jackson allegedly said, "Got milk?" It was stuff like that. Simulating sex allegedly on a giant mannequin of a female, tons of pornography that he apparently allegedly showed to the boys. And then, of course, the more serious stuff, allegedly naked, fully aroused in front of the boys. And then the four allegations of molestation, fondling and the one attempted -- and of course, the alcohol, the plying with alcohol. All of these allegations strongly and vigorously denied by Tom Sneddon -- by Tom Mesereau, rather.

GRACE: Chris Pixley, you have got your work cut out for you on this one.

CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, again, I`ve said from the very beginning, and Nancy, you and I have probably talked about this case 100 times on air already. And we`re just now in the opening statements. But the timeline is a serious problem for the state. You know, and Tom Sneddon today did not back off. He seems to say that, from the moment the Martin Bashir documentary came out, Nancy, the Neverland Ranch went on lockout. The only problem is, he admits that there was no molestation before the Bashir documentary came out.

GRACE: Chris, if this little boy can describe Michael Jackson`s penis, it`s over. You and your timeline can pack up and go home...

PIXLEY: Yes, but that`s not what we heard today.

GRACE: ... because there`s no way that that can -- there`s not an innocent explanation for that, Chris.

PIXLEY: Yes, well, we`ll wait and see if there`s an innocent explanation for it. If these children are actually living in Michael Jackson`s home, there may be one. I agree with you. I think that it`s far fetched to believe right now that Michael Jackson, if he`s described in this way and if the children in fact can make those kind of descriptions, is going to get away with this. But...

GRACE: Bye-bye, Michael, if that`s true, if it`s true.

Very quickly to psychologist Bethany Marshall. Bethany, a lot of people tend to excuse Michael Jackson because of his Peter Pan defense. He had a bad childhood. He wanted to relive it by having sleepovers with a bunch of little boys. What do you make of it?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOLOGIST: Right. I think this is more of an argument for the prosecution rather than the defense because pedophiles long to return to childhood. They want to be a little kid. If you think of a pedophile, you can think of 6- to 10-year-old trapped in an adult`s body.

And what do little kids like? They like other little kids. They like theme parks. They like Gameboys. They like anything that has to do with childhood. So when a pedophile has sex with another kid, it`s kind of like mutual sex or sex play amongst children.

GRACE: Except that one is allegedly 45-years-old.

MARSHALL: That`s right.

GRACE: Mr. Herman?

HERMAN: Nancy, I`m sorry, this case rises and falls on the credibility and the testimony of this young accuser. And Tom Mesereau is going to do a blistering cross-examination.

You know, Nancy, if he falls apart...

GRACE: Horrible.

HERMAN: ... on cross, case is over. Michael wins.

GRACE: What about it, Jane Velez-Mitchell? It`s going to boil down to a credibility contest between a superstar, if he takes the stand, and this kid. Or will it be between Michael Jackson and the mother?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think it may very well be between Michael Jackson and the mother. Tom Mesereau, I have to say, I think did a brilliant job today. He showed how he`s really, really going to take the gloves off when it comes to this mother.

And he said, "She is just a grifter." He mentioned a lot of celebrities who he claims will take the witness stand and say, "Yes, she tried to grift me. I gave her $20,000," apparently one said, or will say, "for medical expenses and to build something in her home. And she got a big TV set. And I don`t know where the rest of the money went." And it goes on and on like that.

The J.C. Penney`s lawsuit where she accused guards of groping her and falsely imprisoning her, very similar charges to the charges that this family is leveling against Michael Jackson. So they have big problems with this family. But if they get prior alleged bad acts in and other kids from the past come in and say similar stories...

GRACE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... that could be the nail in the coffin for this case.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell at the courthouse. As you know, local news is next for some of you. But we`ll be right back.

And remember, I will bring you live coverage of the Sarah Johnson, the Idaho girl, trial tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim, have a story to tell, know of an injustice, or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472- 2301, or visit our Web site at CNN.com/Nancygrace.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Very quickly, straight out to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, who will be the first state`s witness?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Martin Bashir up, and it could happen by noon tomorrow. And then he`s going to sort of set up the clip. Then we`re likely to see the "Living with Michael Jackson" documentary, which might as well have been produced by the prosecution, devastating documentary for Michael Jackson.

GRACE: And Jane, why do you say 12:00? Whey aren`t they putting the witness on before 12:00 noon?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, no, I`m just giving extra time for Tom Mesereau to finish his opening statements. He`s going to pick up tomorrow morning. And I don`t think there`s a hard cutoff for it. It could go on a little while. Though with a break, it could start even earlier tomorrow.

GRACE: And Chris Pixley, very quickly, it`s very difficult to keep your flow in an opening statement when you have an overnight break.

PIXLEY: Yes, it is. By the same token, Nancy, I think the openings may be of a little less value in this case simply because they`re telling us that it`s going to last for six months. I think it`s important to hit the ground running, obviously. You want to build a relationship with the jury. You want to build a relationship of trust. But a lot of this is actually going to be forgotten when it`s all said and done.

GRACE: And very quickly, how cross-examine Bashir?

HERMAN: Oh, Bashir, why did he do the documentary to begin with? For money, to make money.

GRACE: Well, the Constitution protects people from police, but not from a documentary person.

HERMAN: The more sensational Bashir can be, the more money he`s going to make.

GRACE: Thanks to all of my guests. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I want to thank you for being with us and inviting us into your home.

Up next, the latest headlines from around the world. I hope you join us here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock Eastern. And until then, good night, friend. We`re going to go out with a shot of Jessica`s home.

END