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Nancy Grace

Alex Kelly Wants Early Release; Closing Arguments in Robert Blake Trial; Michael Jackson Trial Continues

Aired March 03, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, Alex Kelly vacationed on the ski slopes in Europe for nearly 10 years while the two women he raped lived in fear he would come back and kill them. He was finally convicted in `97. And guess what? Already he wants an early release.
Closing arguments in the Robert Blake murder trial. And the battle is raging on in the Michael Jackson child sex case. Now, Jay Leno had to send lawyers to the courtroom.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

TV star Robert Blake`s murder trial, almost over. The defense team launching closing arguments and doing exactly as expected, blaming the victim. That`s right, his murdered wife, Bonny Lee Bakley, it`s all her fault she got murdered.

In the Michael Jackson child sex case, testimony continues to pour from the witness stand. And a first peek at Michael Jackson`s secret bedroom hidey-hole.

But first, remember Alex Kelly, that prep student turned rapist? He flew to Europe on his parent`s dime to ski for eight years instead of showing up for his rape trial. Well, Kelly finally brought to justice in 1997. Not one, but for two rapes. Today, wah wah, he wants an early release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX KELLY, RAPED TWO TEEN WOMEN: I fully understand that no matter I feel or what I do, it`ll never take away the pain that I`ve caused. But although I can`t take away all the things I`ve done, I can work hard to change myself.

ADRIENNE BAK, RAPE VICTIM: I think the one thing that we have both heard that was missing was, he never actually admitted that he raped us. He never said the word "raped." He never said "attacked." He never said "kidnapped." He never said any of those words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Well, surely they can just say he`s sorry. Tonight, defense attorney Joe Episcopo from West Tampa, Florida. Here in New York, prosecutor Tom Curran. In Atlanta, defense lawyer Lisa Wayne. Also in New York, psychotherapist Robi Ludwig.

Let`s get right down to it.

Joe Episcopo, why parole violent rapists to start with?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, obviously, it`s legal to do it. They have a procedure for it.

GRACE: Yes, I know it`s legal. But why? Why should we?

EPISCOPO: Well, because, you know what? They`re trying to say we`re going to rehabilitate this person and therefore they should have an opportunity to do the rehabilitation. You know, this guy did more rehabilitation than anybody I ever know. Do you see all the things he did, all the things he did for himself to make himself a better person?

GRACE: Yes, what?

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all...

GRACE: I know he learned to slalom on a black diamond for eight years. What else did he do?

EPISCOPO: Look, he went through every jail program. He did the drug treatment. He did the sex-offender treatment.

GRACE: Hey, wait a minute, Joe. He should be thankful. A lot of people pay a lot of money for all that. Have you heard of Hazelden, huh? Have you heard of all those sex-addiction clinics. This guy got it on my taxpayer`s money.

EPISCOPO: Most prisoners don`t do anything in prison but count the days until when they`re going to get out. This guy got himself an associate`s degree. He also joined hospice. He bathed fellow prisoners, took care of them in their dying moments. And he did express sorrow. He said it very clearly. Now he wants to get out and get an advanced degree and make something with his life.

GRACE: OK, hold on.

EPISCOPO: You know what? Let me tell you something. This parole business in Connecticut is a scam on the inmates.

GRACE: OK, parole scam on the inmates. OK, that`s an unique perspective.

Take a listen to this. Roll it, Elizabeth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The board has found that your release is incompatible with the welfare of society due to the violent nature and circumstances of your instant offenses and the lasting impact on the victims and their families.

This concludes Mr. Kelly`s parole hearing today. Thank you all for coming.

Alex, good luck to you.

KELLY: So there`s no more parole hearings?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more parole consideration. There`ll be no new hearing date set.

KELLY: I would like to say something real fast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kelly, this hearing is concluded. Thank you.

KELLY: Why did we come here? This is a waste of time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kelly, this hearing has been concluded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A waste of time, Robi, because he didn`t get what he wants. And let me just clear the record up. We`ve got two violent rapes. And one of the victims says she was sodomized, as well, OK? And here`s a guy who says, because he didn`t get what he wanted with a parole board, it was a waste of time.

Robi, did you see remorse that Joe Episcopo is talking about?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. And also what sociopaths are really wonderful at doing is feigning remorse. They do know that other people have a conscience, other people have a sense of what`s right and what`s wrong, so they try to copy that although they really don`t have that for themselves. So everything is done to manipulate, to think about the final end goal which for him was to feign pretending being sorry, perhaps even going through all of the programs.

GRACE: I didn`t see him even pretending.

LUDWIG: Well, I mean, it was a semi-pretending. You know, he was trying to present himself as somebody who was really going to work on himself. And what we know about sociopaths, it`s not the case. And we saw that at the end. He couldn`t even hold it together at the end and cover that.

GRACE: You know, we saw anger there at the end with the parole board. Not a good look when you want out after half the time, that`s 16 years, for two rapes. And one victim said she was sodomized, as well. Eight years, that`s pretty sweet, huh? You know, a rape can carry life behind bars in some jurisdictions.

TOM CURRAN, PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, particularly violent rape. The more violence, the higher degree and the higher the punishment.

This guy -- I`ll leave the diagnosis, mental diagnosis -- but he certainly is more intent, as far as I can tell, as seeming to be something than actually being it. And in his letter, which I`m sure mommy and daddy gave him good legal counsel to help him draft or actually just write the letter. But as the doctor said, he couldn`t hold it together at the end.

GRACE: You know, let me go to you, Lisa Wayne, what does it mean to you that this guy seemingly has never borne any responsibility? For instance, when he went to Europe to ski for eight years, it was on his parent`s dime. They provided him all of his legal aid, everything. And now, he`s lashing out at the parole board because he didn`t get what he wanted, Lisa.

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, that`s not true. I mean, the bottom line is this: Innocent people go to jail. Innocent people are frustrated when they are persisting their innocence, they can`t get out, and no one wants to listen to them -- remember, this is a kid.

GRACE: Lisa, he pled on one of these. How can you say he`s innocent?

WAYNE: You know what? This is a kid who, under the pressure of everything going on, he pled, OK? And you have got to remember that first trial hung and the second trial it took him eight and a half hours of deliberations.

Now remember this, Nancy. He was 18-years-old when this happened. This is a kid who was scared out of his mind.

GRACE: Kid?

WAYNE: He fled the country. He was 18-years-old.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: At 18-years-old, my father was on the other side of the world fighting for his country.

WAYNE: That was a very different world, Nancy. And in those days, when your father was fighting for this country, guess what? Kids weren`t going to prison on these kinds of cases for the rest of their lives.

GRACE: Lisa? Lisa?

WAYNE: This is a kid who fled this country and he...

GRACE: You have misled the viewers.

WAYNE: No, no, no. He`s persisting in his innocence. And he`s angry because he`s innocent and he shouldn`t be doing eight years, eight days or eight minutes. That`s a travesty, and it`s not right.

GRACE: As we go to break, Lisa Wayne, defense attorney out of Atlanta, has stated this guy is innocent. And I would like to point out that he was found guilty by a jury of rape and that he did not even challenge the other charge. He accepted time behind bars on two rape charges. He is not innocent. He pled to one of those.

Quick break, stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY BUCHANAN, RAPE VICTIM: For 19 years, Adrienne and I have been trying to get justice for the brutal rapes this man committed against us. Even after all this time, and the wonderful life I have created for myself, he still left such an indelible mark on my soul that mere words will certainly fail to convey the pain he has caused.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUCHANAN: I was a child at 17 when Alex Kelly kidnapped, raped and sodomized me. He held me down with his arm -- thank you -- against my neck and threatened my life. The force of his raping me left me with bruises on my back and rug burns on my knees.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: For two brutal rapes -- one victim says she was sodomized, as well -- 16 years behind bars. And Alex Kelly wants good time. He wants early release.

Now, Lisa Wayne, the defense attorney in Atlanta, says Alex Kelly is actually innocent, although he pled nolo to one of the rapes.

But I want you, the viewer, to hear what one of these victims said. Now, very often, rape victims hide their faces. They don`t want their names to be public. These two women went public seeking justice. And I want to warn you that what they`re about to say is graphic.

Elizabeth, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUCHANAN: When he was sodomizing me, he shoved my head so hard against the back of the Blazer that it bent sideways. He was so brutal that he left me bleeding vaginally and anally. He never showed an ounce of compassion, not once during the entire ordeal. In fact, he treated me as if I was not even human, a mere object in which he could take out his rage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I really do not think violent offenders should get parole.

Tom, you`ve prosecuted a lot of violent crimes. What do you think? Can sex offenders be rehabilitated?

CURRAN: Well, I don`t think they can. I`ll defer to Robi, again, for the diagnosis. I don`t think so.

And I agree with you. This kind of violence, this kind of brutal offense, I don`t think there should be any parole. And the federal system has done away with parole entirely.

He had no shot of getting parole today. I have a better shot of playing basketball tonight for the Knicks. He had absolutely no shot whatsoever. This parole board, particularly in light of the publicity, the brutal nature of his crimes, and two highly motivated victims, the spotlight`s on this parole board. They know it. There`s no way. The easiest thing in the world for them to do was to say no. And when you saw his behavior at the end, I think rightfully so.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, what is his best strategy to get parole?

EPISCOPO: Well, I think he had the best strategy. And I think he is going to have to continue with that strategy and hope that next time the victims don`t come to the hearing, because that`s really what did him in. The fact of the matter is, your complaint must be with the Connecticut legislature that allows for this procedure, because that`s what they`re doing. They`re following the law.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Maybe that is where my complaint lies. But I also know that a lot of parole boards empty out the jails so they can get free beds for more inmates, instead of building another jail or instead of building rehab for simple drug offenders. It`s easier to let violent offenders out so they can make room for new people. And then we are stuck with them walking the streets.

Very quickly to you, Robi Ludwig, it just seems to me that this guy -- you know, sometimes you get a defendant that you feel mercy or compassion for. They have had a horrible life, no education, never had a chance. Then they commit a robbery or steal a car and you feel bad for them.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: This guy had everything. I don`t understand. Silver spoon, vacation in Switzerland.

LUDWIG: But sometimes those are the exact people that commit the crimes, because it either is happening with people who are very entitled, they get everything, the world is their oyster. So in their head they really believe that they should get everything that they want. And then the extremely poor people who are abused in retaliation they feel, "Well, I was so abused in life, I should be able to get whatever I want." So it`s both extremes.

GRACE: We saw that today at the parole board hearing.

LUDWIG: Yes, yes.

GRACE: So, Lisa, when you have people -- I know you try a lot of cases. But when you -- there he is in his earlier wrestling days. He was a star on the wrestling team. When you take somebody for a parole board hearing, you basically tell them, "Sit down and shut up, for Pete`s sake." Because when he spattered off at the end, that blew it.

WAYNE: And I don`t disagree with you on that, Nancy. I mean, the problem though is that you`re dealing with people. And lawyers know that you can`t control the emotions, the feelings, the frustrations that you have with clients. And he was showing real frustration, emotion, however you want to characterize it.

I look at it a little differently than you all because I have seen these people who are at such a loss, they`re so frustrated, they`re powerless, and that`s how they show it.

GRACE: Oh, you mean like this rape victim was at the back of that Jeep?

WAYNE: Well, you know what? Again, that`s a distinction. You have got to remember, you said something very important. And that is that he pled no contest. To plead no contest on a sexual assault case never happens. Those are cases where they can`t prove it, that there`s pressure on this kid...

GRACE: Are you telling me...

WAYNE: And that doesn`t happen in this country.

GRACE: ... that this guy is innocent? Just yes or no? Are you saying he`s innocent?

WAYNE: You know what? He has persisted in his innocence. He always had. And I`m backing him on that, because I believe that that`s true.

GRACE: All right. You go ahead and do that, even after you heard what these two rape victims said. You know what? Power to you.

WAYNE: It`s easy to make up all -- it`s easy to make those kind of accusations without cross-examination, Nancy. You can say whatever you want to.

GRACE: If you will recall, this case went to trial...

WAYNE: One of them did.

GRACE: ... I`d like to finish, Lisa -- on the first rape victim. And the jury found him guilty. And he was sentenced. I think the jury knows the evidence much better than any of us.

Quick break. Now to "Trial Tracking": Sarah Johnson -- I`m not letting it go -- the 16-year-old Idaho girl who`s accused of shooting her parents to death, well, oh, boo-hoo, she`s back in court. She is crying now. She was dry-eyed the day her parents were murdered. Prosecutors say she opened fire when they disapproved of her 19-year-old illegal alien boyfriend with a drug arrest. The defense called Sarah`s high school vice principal to the stand to trash the boyfriend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON MARTINEZ, VICE PRINCIPAL, WOOD RIVER HIGH SCHOOL: Saw him a number of different times with the number 13 on his possession. We also had differing occasions of where he wore either a red or a blue scarf on his belt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was the scarf a colored scarf?

MARTINEZ: Colored scarf. Again, my understanding is that a blue one is for a certain affiliation with the gang. Red is the same symbol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Defense strategy, clearly they are trying to point the finger at the boyfriend as the killer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: I have water balloon fights and climbing trees. I think that those two are my favorite.

MARTIN BASHIR, BBC DOCUMENTARY HOST: And you prefer making love or going to a concert or...

JACKSON: Hmm?

BASHIR: You really mean that, that you prefer climbing trees and having a balloon fight?

JACKSON: A water balloon fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, maybe I`m crazy. Did I just hear him say he`d rather have a water balloon fight or climb a tree rather than go to a concert or have sex? Did I hear that, Robi? I did hear that, yes.

LUDWIG: You did hear that.

GRACE: OK, that was a clip from the ABC version of the BBC documentary by Martin Bashir. Today, the jury in the Jackson child sex case got their first look at Jackson`s bedroom suite. A video taken from a raid -- remember when the cops raided Neverland? It shows the room where Jackson allegedly molested a 13-year-old boy.

Let`s go straight out to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell. Hi, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Hey, Nancy. How are you doing tonight?

GRACE: Well, I`m feeling better. What went down in the courtroom today?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, another extremely, extremely exciting day in court. As you mentioned, they played a video of Michael Jackson`s master bedroom and some doll rooms and toy rooms. And, that was exciting enough. That sheriff`s officer left the stand...

GRACE: Jane, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... and we expected another one. And then we got the sister of the accuser which was -- we weren`t expecting her that early, Nancy. So it was a shocker that she suddenly showed up as early as she did.

GRACE: You know you just said you were excited to see video of a doll room. You said that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s very dramatic. And you have to understand this is no ordinary doll room. This is a doll room with mannequins that are taller than I am with Supermans, and Batmans, and Darth Vaders, and R2-D2s. It`s absolutely an astounding place. And it left a lot of people like -- with their jaws dropping.

GRACE: Tom?

CURRAN: The guy`s a freak. I mean, I hope my nephews and nieces have turned the channel right now. I mean, he is a freak.

GRACE: But wait a minute. You know, it`s easy to take a pot shot at this guy because he is weird, he is freakish. But what about the molestation charges? That`s what I want to hear about.

Jane, what did we hear -- OK, back to the bedroom. Did the jury see the secret hidey-hole?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, here`s what happened. The big bombshell of the day came very late in the day of a sister of the accuser took the stand. And she said that she saw Michael Jackson pouring wine to her brother, the accuser, her other younger brother. And another young boy, who was a relative of one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, also offered the wine to her. They all drank it.

How did she know it was wine? It was clear. It was in a wine bottle. And it tasted funny.

That was the big bombshell. This happened in a secret area that is behind the arcade. In other words, you`re in the video arcade. You move the jukebox and you go into this secret corridor. And you come into the wine cellar.

She said she actually followed the boys there with Michael Jackson one time. She was often sort of shunted aside. And she decided to follow them and that`s what she saw. So that was really the big bombshell of the day because alcohol is a very, very important factor in this case.

GRACE: Yes. It really is.

And let me go to you, Joe Episcopo. You know why it`s so important? And correct me if I`m wrong on this. Because this is not like at a bar someone feeding alcohol or selling alcohol to a minor. This is specifically giving alcohol to a minor for a lewd or lascivious purpose.

EPISCOPO: Well, now, wait a minute. You just jumped a whole thing there. Contributing to the delinquency of a minor, yes, giving them alcohol.

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: But for that purpose, that`s what you say. That`s not necessarily what happened.

GRACE: I`m talking about the indictment. I`m asking you about the burden of proof, the elements the state has to show here, Joe.

EPISCOPO: Yes. And that`s, you know, you just can`t make that automatic jump that that`s the reason he did that.

GRACE: OK, Joe, when it comes to pedophiles, do you defend them?

EPISCOPO: Yes, I do.

GRACE: OK. Do you think they can ever be cured?

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all, let me say this, that Michael Jackson is not...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No. I asked you a question. I`m asking you a question. Please be direct. Do you think pedophiles can be cured?

EPISCOPO: I don`t know. And you don`t know, either.

GRACE: OK, that`s all I wanted to know. Yes, thanks. Thanks for answering the question.

Let me go to you, Lisa Wayne. Do you think child molesters can ever be cured?

WAYNE: No. I do not.

GRACE: I don`t either.

WAYNE: I don`t. I think it is impulse control. And unfortunately we have not come up with whatever medication or whatever needs to be done to control that. I think it`s a lifelong thing. And I agree with you on this point. I don`t think that it`s something that can be cured. We know that.

GRACE: I have got a couple of ideas of what we could do with them.

WAYNE: Well, I know, I know.

GRACE: But they`re actually unconstitutional.

WAYNE: Right, right.

GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig, is he living in a fantasy land? I`m like, you have got a 45-year-old man sneaking off behind the arcade sipping wine out of a coke bottle.

LUDWIG: It definitely sounds like he`s fixated in this very childlike adolescent mode of operating. And so I would wonder, even with his childlike voice, what trauma happened to him at that time...

GRACE: Childlike voice?

LUDWIG: Yes. It`s whispery.

GRACE: I have actually heard, Jane Velez -- I`m going to come back to you, Rob -- that he actually has a very deep voice, except he chooses to speak falsetto.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot of people have said that. In fact...

GRACE: They`re making me wrap, Jane. Jane, Elizabeth`s cracking the whip. I have got to go to break. Be right back.

As we go to break, we want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Jennifer Clemmings. January, 2003, 32-year-old Jennifer, stabbed to death by an intruder in her own home, near my home, Decatur, Georgia. If you have any information on this beautiful girl, Jennifer Clemmings, call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation at 888-813-8389. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I`m Sophia Choi. Let`s get to your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Martha Stewart has spent the past five months locked up learning how to live the life of an inmate. Now she is hours from leaving Alderson Federal Women`s Prison in West Virginia to begin the next phase of her sentence. After boarding a private jet tonight, she will spend the next five months on house arrest at the mansion in Bedford, New York.

Pope John Paul II could get out of the hospital in time for Easter. Vatican officials say the pontiff`s health continues to improve. He`s been in a hospital for a week after undergoing a tracheotomy.

Sixty-seven hours, 23,000 miles, and lots of smiles later, Steve Fossett became the first person to fly around the world without stopping or refueling. Fossett landed his custom-built Global Flyer this afternoon in Kansas. Richard Branson, the founder of Virgin Atlantic, financed the flight and broke out the champagne when the trip was over.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: We have guestrooms. But whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me. They never want to stay in the guest -- and I have never invited them in my room. They always just want to stay. They say, "Can I stay with you tonight?" I go, "If it`s OK with your parents, yes, you can."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, that`s from the ABC version of the BBC documentary by Martin Bashir.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, from "Celebrity Justice," did any of the jurors just fall off their seat when they saw that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to tell you that we saw a lot of what looked like secret chambers or heard about them all day today. There was the secret wine cellar. Then the master bedroom, that is Michael Jackson`s master bedroom, is really more like an apartment. We saw a video of it.

You go in. There`s a grand piano. There`s a couch. There`s a bathroom. And then you go up this flight of stairs and to the right is a bed with a very glittery bedspread. And that is where some of the alleged molestations are said to have taken place.

So, as the video camera by the sheriff`s department goes up and makes a right, it`s almost like you`re getting the viewpoint of the younger brother who`s going to say he climbed those stairs and made a right and froze in his tracks as he looked through those banisters and saw, he claims, these molestations occurring.

Now, the defense tried to counter that the videographer was a tall man. So that, therefore, when he turned the camera, he would be seeing much higher than a youngster would be seeing. But then other people said, when we were talking about it, well, why couldn`t the boy climb up a couple more steps?

So it gave you a real though point of view of what this boy is going to testify to. And we think that this boy, the accuser`s kid brother, could very well be the next one to take the stand. It seems like the prosecution is mixing it up and bringing up these strong, crucial witnesses higher up on their witness list.

GRACE: Interesting. When are we going to see everything that was seized from Neverland?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, there is so much evidence in this case. I have a little purple tag that I put on every piece of evidence that comes in. And I`ve got tags coming out of my ears at this point.

I mean, there is so much evidence that it`s coming in as the foundation is laid, as each witness talks and sets it up. So I don`t know exactly when, but you`re going to see so much evidence in this case, it`s going to makes your head spin.

GRACE: Hey, Jane. I was asking you as we went to break, Robi brought up that he speaks in a very high falsetto voice. But it`s my understanding that he doesn`t always talk like that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what a lot of people have said, that he has a sort of a private voice. I remember once during the 2002 case, and perhaps a little bit after that, after the baby dangling incident, that I asked him right at this very courthouse, "Hey, what do you think of Gloria Allred?" And he turned around. And all of a sudden, it was like he went out of character. And he said words to the effect of "tell her to go to hell."

She, of course, is the attorney who`s demanding an investigation based on the baby dangling. But when he said that, his voice dropped it seemed like almost an octave. And if you`ll notice, if you compare some of his earlier statements to some of his court statements, when he appeared wearing the spectacles, and he had the whole new look with defense attorney Tom Mesereau, if you check the tape, you`ll notice that his voice seems to be lower.

I noticed that when I was listening to it and walking away from the TV set. I said, "Who was that?" And then I turn around. That is Michael Jackson. So, his voice, the octaves change.

GRACE: You know, Robi, we`re just all trial lawyers here. But we need a shrink. Why would a grown man adopt a falsetto voice?

LUDWIG: You know, again, with Michael Jackson, you wonder if there`s the rock-star mentality, that because he is a rock star, he is able to do...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... falsetto?

LUDWIG: Well, maybe he feels that it works towards his image, that he is a performer. And what he does is he performs. So he must feel that it words towards his advantage in some way. Otherwise he wouldn`t do it.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, what`s your advice tonight for Michael Jackson? You have won a lot of cases.

EPISCOPO: I think he should continue to be the way he is and continue to project the image of what he is, because that`s what he is. He is a child. He stated that when he was growing up, they were out entertaining all the time and he didn`t have a childhood. Now he`s wealthy and he`s trying to have a childhood.

And that`s what he is living. He is living his childhood today even though he`s a grown man. That what makes him strange, but it doesn`t make him a pedophile, and it doesn`t mean he molested these children.

GRACE: Hey, look, I don`t have a problem with him climbing up in a tree and having water balloon fights. That`s his business. But when one kid says he sees him molesting another kid, and that kid backs him up, and there are two other accusers that I believe will come to the courtroom and say the same thing, Tom.

CURRAN: Well, you`d certainly start to suspect that there may be fire behind the smoke. And then he becomes not just criminally icky, he becomes a criminal pedophile. It`s something that you have to look for and you have to look into this. I`m not dismissing any of this.

I do agree with Joe that he has to be what he is. If he tries to -- if he came to court in a conservative blue Brooks Brothers suit, it would have a negative effect, I think, with the jury.

GRACE: But what is he coming to court in, Jane? I understand he`s never going to show up in a three-piece suit. But the insignia and the military pins, and that watch, is it over the top? Is the jury noticing it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it fits into the whole strange defense. If he showed up in a pinstripe suit and a white shirt and a conservative tie, I think people would be shocked and be confused. That would raise more questions than it would answer.

Today, he showed up in purple. And his family -- he had a purple shirt, purple socks. It was a purple theme with a black suit. Now his family also seemed to be in the purple family. His mother, Katherine, was wearing a bluish purple. One of his brothers had a purple tie. His publicist, Raymone Bain, was wearing a purple outfit. And I have to warn you, I`m also wearing purple today. But that wasn`t part of the plan. I didn`t get the memo.

GRACE: Jane? Jane, you`re drinking the Kool-aid. You`re drinking the Kool-aid.

Hey, hey, guys. Take a listen to this.

Go, Elizabeth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: We`re going to sleep. I tuck them in. I put little like music on, do a little story time. I read a book. It`s very sweet, put the fireplace on, give them hot milk. You know, we have little cookies. It`s very charming, very sweet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, you know what? That hurts. That`s, again, from the ABC version of the BBC documentary by Martin Bashir.

Lisa Wayne, the jury has seen the documentary. Now, look, I know you`re a dyed-in-the-wool defense lawyer. I get it. But you have to admit that had to just kind of like raise the hair on the back of their necks.

WAYNE: Well, it might. But, frankly, I think it plays into the defense. And when I`m watching that, it`s very surreal. But in a courtroom, when all of us are watching that, I have to tell you, you`re looking at Michael Jackson. You`re listening to this. And it`s sympathetic.

GRACE: Milk and cookies?

WAYNE: Yes, he`s a nice guy who`s living in this fantasy world. But again, he`s not a pedophile which is a violent offense. This is not a violent guy. And you can`t dismiss that. I mean, I think it`s sympathetic and I don`t think it plays against Michael Jackson at all.

GRACE: The defense wants everyone else to enter that fantasy world and suspend disbelief.

WAYNE: I don`t think so.

GRACE: What we really have is a 45-year-old guy bringing kids, little boys, into his bed. And everybody looks the other way because he`s rich and famous, Robi.

LUDWIG: Well, I mean, that`s certainly one take. I mean, you can certainly look at Michael Jackson two ways. One, he`s certainly fits the profile of a pedophile. It`s somebody...

GRACE: What`s the profile of a pedophile?

LUDWIG: Well, it`s somebody who has fantasies towards children, usually right around the cusp of adolescence because adolescences, like 13, they`re exploring and curious about sex. And so they have these fantasies that they`re compelled to act on.

Usually they find ways to be around children and find vulnerable children so that they won`t be questioned but they try to live normal. And that`s where Michael Jackson departs in his presentation. He doesn`t pretend to be normal. He advertises. So is he a performer pedophile? I don`t know.

So one could look at him that way, well, he idealizes children, or the other.

GRACE: Well, I can tell you all this is all going to depend on the credibility of this little boy. If he is destroyed on cross-examine and the jury believes he is being coached into lying for money, it`s over. It is over.

Quick break. When we come back, guess what? Closing arguments in the trial of "Baretta`s" trial, that`s right, Robert Blake. The jury`s looking at deliberations.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALD SCHWARTZBACH, ROBERT BLAKE`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When counsel talked about an issue, talked about Mr. Blake`s behavior at the scene, they stuck blinders on you. They didn`t talk about all of the evidence, didn`t analyze. I`m going to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Robert Blake on trial for the murder of his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley. Essential, the defense was, "She`s a tramp. You shouldn`t care."

Let`s go straight out to Joe Episcopo.

Joe, do you think this guy`s going to walk?

EPISCOPO: This is a tough one. You know, when I read about that stuntman who is a witness against him saying that he saw people dressed as plants in his yard and there`s a large, horned animal living in his yard and he tried to dig it up. And he stares out the window for hours with his binoculars, not a very good witness to try to convict somebody with. But if the jury...

GRACE: Hey, Joe?

EPISCOPO: What?

GRACE: Let`s just throw him out then if you think he has got a credibility problem. I agree with you, OK? Forget he exists. What about the rest of the case, like the time line?

Blake is with his wife. He goes back in to the restaurant to get his gun that somehow wriggled down from his crotch to his ankle and he didn`t feel a thing. Five minutes later, he comes out. This unknown, uncatchable assailant nobody sees -- he`s like the wind -- comes, kills his wife and then doesn`t get very far, drops the murder weapon in the Dixie dumpster right there at the scene almost as if the murderer never left the scene.

EPISCOPO: Nancy, this is a case that`s all motive, you know, and very little really direct evidence. It`s just motive. And motive`s not an element in the case. So there is a possibility he could be acquitted here. It`s just that I`m not sure he comes across to the jury as a very likable guy.

GRACE: When you say he didn`t come across as likable, what do you mean by that?

EPISCOPO: Well, look at the way he sits there in the box. And he`s brooding. And he just, you know, he`s just not the kind...

GRACE: Hey, I`m showing a picture of what...

EPISCOPO: Yes. He looks bad.

GRACE: That`s exactly the way he sat the entire time.

EPISCOPO: He looks bad.

GRACE: And another thing, another thing, Lisa Wayne, I know you have the judge instruct your juries on this. You are not to hold it against the defendant if they do not take the stand.

But when he didn`t take -- he`d sit down for Barbara Walters and cry the whole time. But he wouldn`t talk in front of the jury. I think they hold that against the defendant.

WAYNE: Well, you know, I don`t disagree with you. And whenever a defendant decides he`s going go in front of the media and talk and then get to trial and not talk, it does look bad. And you can`t have it both ways because that`s who you should be talking to if you ever going to talk.

So he is in a bad situation. But I`m assuming the lawyer talked about it. He talked about it in closing. And it is a circumstantial evidence case, and you know, Nancy, fortunately, unfortunately, jurors want physical evidence.

GRACE: Yes, they do.

WAYNE: And they don`t want to do it without physical evidence.

GRACE: Hey, Elizabeth, let me see if you got a shot of Bonny Lee Bakley. Bonny Lee Bakley was the one that was crucified in this trial. Because her reputation was lambasted. It`s almost as if, "She`s a tramp, jury. So, it`s probably one of these guys that hated her," without any real proof of this phantom killer.

In other words, her life is not as valuable as your lives, jurors. So you shouldn`t really worry about this case. Now, you know what, Robi, they are arguing that about her today. Tomorrow, it could be me or you.

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: I mean, that has truly been their strategy throughout is to attack the victim.

LUDWIG: Right. And what else are they going to do? They need to attack the victim. And also point out that there`s no physical linking evidence. Because if you look at Robert Blake, you certainly can imagine, and he basically states it, he wanted to get rid of this woman. He wanted her dead.

So the jury can imagine he wanted her dead. And so they have to kind of point the finger to her and say, you know, she was a disgusting person, good-bye, good riddance. And that`s what they`re trying to do.

GRACE: Tom, I do think Joe and Lisa are right about one thing. And that is, juries have come to expect some kind of sleuthing, some CSI physical evidence. What do we have here?

CURRAN: Well, you have a circumstantial case. But circumstantial cases...

GRACE: Nothing wrong with that.

CURRAN: There`s nothing wrong with that. I`ve tried many of them myself. I think, you know, there are no bonus points for being a really good killer and planning it out and eliminating the physical evidence. And you have to stress that as a prosecutor in the face of lack of physical evidence because jurors do want it.

GRACE: Wait a minute. What do they have?

CURRAN: They have two guys telling who don`t know each other -- have Blake telling them how he wants to kill his wife.

GRACE: Which is very similar to the way she died.

CURRAN: Yes, it just so happens.

GRACE: OK.

CURRAN: And, you know, there has to be a reason to doubt, not that, well, when no one is looking maybe little green monsters came down did it and then disappeared.

GRACE: So you have got these two guys both saying the same thing. They have no connection to each other, that Blake wanted them to kill Bonny Lee Bakley. What else do we have? We have got a little gunshot residue on his hands.

CURRAN: A little bit, even though he did wash his hands.

GRACE: Yes. We`ve got a time line that I think is pretty damning. What do you think about the time line?

CURRAN: Time line`s very damning. Going back to get this gun that, whoops, I forgot my gun in the restaurant. I mean, that`s, you know -- is that common sense? Can a jury relate to that? And I think Joe alludes -- I don`t think they`re going to relate to him very well.

The defense is not just, you know, the old saying, "Some people just need killing," although there is a measure of that here. I think they brought all of this up to point out, hey, there were a lot of people who wanted to kill this lady.

GRACE: But, you know, Joe Episcopo, this theory that some unknown came and assassinated Bonny Lee Bakley over what, this lonely heart club scam where she might get $200 off somebody?

EPISCOPO: Well, you know, the idea that you would concoct this thing to go back and get your gun, it`s almost believable because if he`s going to really have a planned killing, that doesn`t seem to be the way to do it, does it?

GRACE: Well, there`s no really good way to plan a killing. But, you know, the busboys and the people in the restaurant didn`t see a gun in the booth where he had been.

Very quickly, on his demeanor, what would you say about his demeanor in court?

LUDWIG: He`s pompous and entitled, and also very closely matched with his bad-boy image. So that does not work to his advantage.

CURRAN: You know, I think, you know, a lot of people wanted her dead. That`s his only opportunity.

GRACE: Everybody, we are going to a break.

But before we go, it has now been over a week since nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford disappeared in Homosassa, Florida. She came home from bible study, Wednesday, February 23. Her grandmother tucked her into bed around 10:00 p.m. And she has never been seen since. Citrus County Sheriff Jeff Dawsy issued a plea to Jessica`s kidnapper to call him directly to negotiate a release. The Post Office sent out 42,000 missing person fliers with her picture, hoping someone will come forward. Take a look.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back. Also, remember, you can catch our trial, the Sarah Johnson case, weekdays at Court TV`s "Closing Arguments," 3:00 to 5:00. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m almost afraid to ask, but, final thoughts, Joe Episcopo?

EPISCOPO: On what?

GRACE: On the Robert Blake case.

EPISCOPO: Oh. I think that Blake`s got a chance for an acquittal. Just like everyone else has said, that the jury wants solid evidence to convict somebody of murder.

GRACE: You know what? I think they want solid evidence, too, in a circumstantial case. Everybody, I`ve been giving Joe a hard time, but he`s won a lot more than he`s lost down there in his Florida jurisdiction.

Lisa Wayne, final thought?

WAYNE: I agree with you both. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn`t seem -- they can`t get over the hurdle in this case. I think he`s going to walk.

GRACE: I don`t know. I think the time line is going to be the nail in the coffin, but we`ll see. We`ll see. I`m going to hold you to that, Lisa.

WAYNE: OK.

GRACE: Tom?

CURRAN: He`s got a shot. I don`t know if he`s going to walk on this. But he`s got a shot. His lawyer`s done a good job of portraying the victim, while not offending the jury by coming out and saying some people just need killing, but by saying, you know, a lot of people could have been motivated to do this.

GRACE: Who? Name one person.

CURRAN: This lonely hearts -- people get upset about that.

GRACE: Name a specific person.

CURRAN: Oh, there`s a universe of people out there that she scammed.

GRACE: Name one. See, that`s what`s bugging me. They never named one specific person that could have done this other than Blake. It`s just this amorphous group of men that want to kill her.

CURRAN: They just say, "We`re the defense. We don`t have to."

GRACE: OK, I got you.

LUDWIG: It`s not over until it`s over, but wanting a wife dead does not make a man guilty. Because there are a lot of husbands that want their wives dead but don`t act on that. So, again, we don`t know what`s going to happen. It`s not clear yet.

GRACE: But if you had to put money on it, Robi...

LUDWIG: See, if I had to put money on it, I would say he`s the most likely suspect. He had the most reason to be enraged with her. She scammed him. She...

GRACE: And what did it mean to you, psychologically, that, after she died, he didn`t try to render aid?

LUDWIG: He liked the idea that she was dead. But that doesn`t necessarily mean that he killed her.

GRACE: Got to go to break.

As we sign off, I want to remind you, Jessie Lunsford is still missing. If you have any information about her disappearance, please call this number, 352-726-1121.

Thank you, Joe Episcopo, Lisa Wayne, Tom Curran, Robi Ludwig, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

But my biggest thank you to you for inviting us into your home tonight. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. And I hope you join me back tomorrow night 8:00 Eastern. Good night, friend.

MIKE GALANOS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A jailed white supremacist is denying involvement in the shooting deaths of a federal judge`s husband and mother. Matthew Hale says he did not order the killings and none of his followers would commit such a crime. Hale is awaiting sentencing for trying to hire someone to kill the judge, Joan Humphrey Lefkow.

Two chimpanzees were shot and killed in an animal sanctuary near Bakersfield, California, after several of them escaped their cages and attacked sanctuary workers. Two people were seriously hurt. Officials say they don`t know how the animals got out of their cages.

Martha Stewart is expected to walk out of a federal prison in West Virginia after midnight Eastern time ending five months of confinement. She`ll be under house arrest for another five months. Stewart was convicted last year on charges related to her sale of ImClone stock.

So what will house arrest be like for the domestic diva? We`ll find out when Erica Hill joins me for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT." Hope you`ll join us.

END


Aired March 3, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, Alex Kelly vacationed on the ski slopes in Europe for nearly 10 years while the two women he raped lived in fear he would come back and kill them. He was finally convicted in `97. And guess what? Already he wants an early release.
Closing arguments in the Robert Blake murder trial. And the battle is raging on in the Michael Jackson child sex case. Now, Jay Leno had to send lawyers to the courtroom.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

TV star Robert Blake`s murder trial, almost over. The defense team launching closing arguments and doing exactly as expected, blaming the victim. That`s right, his murdered wife, Bonny Lee Bakley, it`s all her fault she got murdered.

In the Michael Jackson child sex case, testimony continues to pour from the witness stand. And a first peek at Michael Jackson`s secret bedroom hidey-hole.

But first, remember Alex Kelly, that prep student turned rapist? He flew to Europe on his parent`s dime to ski for eight years instead of showing up for his rape trial. Well, Kelly finally brought to justice in 1997. Not one, but for two rapes. Today, wah wah, he wants an early release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEX KELLY, RAPED TWO TEEN WOMEN: I fully understand that no matter I feel or what I do, it`ll never take away the pain that I`ve caused. But although I can`t take away all the things I`ve done, I can work hard to change myself.

ADRIENNE BAK, RAPE VICTIM: I think the one thing that we have both heard that was missing was, he never actually admitted that he raped us. He never said the word "raped." He never said "attacked." He never said "kidnapped." He never said any of those words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Well, surely they can just say he`s sorry. Tonight, defense attorney Joe Episcopo from West Tampa, Florida. Here in New York, prosecutor Tom Curran. In Atlanta, defense lawyer Lisa Wayne. Also in New York, psychotherapist Robi Ludwig.

Let`s get right down to it.

Joe Episcopo, why parole violent rapists to start with?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, obviously, it`s legal to do it. They have a procedure for it.

GRACE: Yes, I know it`s legal. But why? Why should we?

EPISCOPO: Well, because, you know what? They`re trying to say we`re going to rehabilitate this person and therefore they should have an opportunity to do the rehabilitation. You know, this guy did more rehabilitation than anybody I ever know. Do you see all the things he did, all the things he did for himself to make himself a better person?

GRACE: Yes, what?

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all...

GRACE: I know he learned to slalom on a black diamond for eight years. What else did he do?

EPISCOPO: Look, he went through every jail program. He did the drug treatment. He did the sex-offender treatment.

GRACE: Hey, wait a minute, Joe. He should be thankful. A lot of people pay a lot of money for all that. Have you heard of Hazelden, huh? Have you heard of all those sex-addiction clinics. This guy got it on my taxpayer`s money.

EPISCOPO: Most prisoners don`t do anything in prison but count the days until when they`re going to get out. This guy got himself an associate`s degree. He also joined hospice. He bathed fellow prisoners, took care of them in their dying moments. And he did express sorrow. He said it very clearly. Now he wants to get out and get an advanced degree and make something with his life.

GRACE: OK, hold on.

EPISCOPO: You know what? Let me tell you something. This parole business in Connecticut is a scam on the inmates.

GRACE: OK, parole scam on the inmates. OK, that`s an unique perspective.

Take a listen to this. Roll it, Elizabeth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The board has found that your release is incompatible with the welfare of society due to the violent nature and circumstances of your instant offenses and the lasting impact on the victims and their families.

This concludes Mr. Kelly`s parole hearing today. Thank you all for coming.

Alex, good luck to you.

KELLY: So there`s no more parole hearings?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No more parole consideration. There`ll be no new hearing date set.

KELLY: I would like to say something real fast.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kelly, this hearing is concluded. Thank you.

KELLY: Why did we come here? This is a waste of time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Kelly, this hearing has been concluded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: A waste of time, Robi, because he didn`t get what he wants. And let me just clear the record up. We`ve got two violent rapes. And one of the victims says she was sodomized, as well, OK? And here`s a guy who says, because he didn`t get what he wanted with a parole board, it was a waste of time.

Robi, did you see remorse that Joe Episcopo is talking about?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: No. And also what sociopaths are really wonderful at doing is feigning remorse. They do know that other people have a conscience, other people have a sense of what`s right and what`s wrong, so they try to copy that although they really don`t have that for themselves. So everything is done to manipulate, to think about the final end goal which for him was to feign pretending being sorry, perhaps even going through all of the programs.

GRACE: I didn`t see him even pretending.

LUDWIG: Well, I mean, it was a semi-pretending. You know, he was trying to present himself as somebody who was really going to work on himself. And what we know about sociopaths, it`s not the case. And we saw that at the end. He couldn`t even hold it together at the end and cover that.

GRACE: You know, we saw anger there at the end with the parole board. Not a good look when you want out after half the time, that`s 16 years, for two rapes. And one victim said she was sodomized, as well. Eight years, that`s pretty sweet, huh? You know, a rape can carry life behind bars in some jurisdictions.

TOM CURRAN, PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, particularly violent rape. The more violence, the higher degree and the higher the punishment.

This guy -- I`ll leave the diagnosis, mental diagnosis -- but he certainly is more intent, as far as I can tell, as seeming to be something than actually being it. And in his letter, which I`m sure mommy and daddy gave him good legal counsel to help him draft or actually just write the letter. But as the doctor said, he couldn`t hold it together at the end.

GRACE: You know, let me go to you, Lisa Wayne, what does it mean to you that this guy seemingly has never borne any responsibility? For instance, when he went to Europe to ski for eight years, it was on his parent`s dime. They provided him all of his legal aid, everything. And now, he`s lashing out at the parole board because he didn`t get what he wanted, Lisa.

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, that`s not true. I mean, the bottom line is this: Innocent people go to jail. Innocent people are frustrated when they are persisting their innocence, they can`t get out, and no one wants to listen to them -- remember, this is a kid.

GRACE: Lisa, he pled on one of these. How can you say he`s innocent?

WAYNE: You know what? This is a kid who, under the pressure of everything going on, he pled, OK? And you have got to remember that first trial hung and the second trial it took him eight and a half hours of deliberations.

Now remember this, Nancy. He was 18-years-old when this happened. This is a kid who was scared out of his mind.

GRACE: Kid?

WAYNE: He fled the country. He was 18-years-old.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: At 18-years-old, my father was on the other side of the world fighting for his country.

WAYNE: That was a very different world, Nancy. And in those days, when your father was fighting for this country, guess what? Kids weren`t going to prison on these kinds of cases for the rest of their lives.

GRACE: Lisa? Lisa?

WAYNE: This is a kid who fled this country and he...

GRACE: You have misled the viewers.

WAYNE: No, no, no. He`s persisting in his innocence. And he`s angry because he`s innocent and he shouldn`t be doing eight years, eight days or eight minutes. That`s a travesty, and it`s not right.

GRACE: As we go to break, Lisa Wayne, defense attorney out of Atlanta, has stated this guy is innocent. And I would like to point out that he was found guilty by a jury of rape and that he did not even challenge the other charge. He accepted time behind bars on two rape charges. He is not innocent. He pled to one of those.

Quick break, stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY BUCHANAN, RAPE VICTIM: For 19 years, Adrienne and I have been trying to get justice for the brutal rapes this man committed against us. Even after all this time, and the wonderful life I have created for myself, he still left such an indelible mark on my soul that mere words will certainly fail to convey the pain he has caused.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUCHANAN: I was a child at 17 when Alex Kelly kidnapped, raped and sodomized me. He held me down with his arm -- thank you -- against my neck and threatened my life. The force of his raping me left me with bruises on my back and rug burns on my knees.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: For two brutal rapes -- one victim says she was sodomized, as well -- 16 years behind bars. And Alex Kelly wants good time. He wants early release.

Now, Lisa Wayne, the defense attorney in Atlanta, says Alex Kelly is actually innocent, although he pled nolo to one of the rapes.

But I want you, the viewer, to hear what one of these victims said. Now, very often, rape victims hide their faces. They don`t want their names to be public. These two women went public seeking justice. And I want to warn you that what they`re about to say is graphic.

Elizabeth, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUCHANAN: When he was sodomizing me, he shoved my head so hard against the back of the Blazer that it bent sideways. He was so brutal that he left me bleeding vaginally and anally. He never showed an ounce of compassion, not once during the entire ordeal. In fact, he treated me as if I was not even human, a mere object in which he could take out his rage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I really do not think violent offenders should get parole.

Tom, you`ve prosecuted a lot of violent crimes. What do you think? Can sex offenders be rehabilitated?

CURRAN: Well, I don`t think they can. I`ll defer to Robi, again, for the diagnosis. I don`t think so.

And I agree with you. This kind of violence, this kind of brutal offense, I don`t think there should be any parole. And the federal system has done away with parole entirely.

He had no shot of getting parole today. I have a better shot of playing basketball tonight for the Knicks. He had absolutely no shot whatsoever. This parole board, particularly in light of the publicity, the brutal nature of his crimes, and two highly motivated victims, the spotlight`s on this parole board. They know it. There`s no way. The easiest thing in the world for them to do was to say no. And when you saw his behavior at the end, I think rightfully so.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, what is his best strategy to get parole?

EPISCOPO: Well, I think he had the best strategy. And I think he is going to have to continue with that strategy and hope that next time the victims don`t come to the hearing, because that`s really what did him in. The fact of the matter is, your complaint must be with the Connecticut legislature that allows for this procedure, because that`s what they`re doing. They`re following the law.

GRACE: Well, you know what? Maybe that is where my complaint lies. But I also know that a lot of parole boards empty out the jails so they can get free beds for more inmates, instead of building another jail or instead of building rehab for simple drug offenders. It`s easier to let violent offenders out so they can make room for new people. And then we are stuck with them walking the streets.

Very quickly to you, Robi Ludwig, it just seems to me that this guy -- you know, sometimes you get a defendant that you feel mercy or compassion for. They have had a horrible life, no education, never had a chance. Then they commit a robbery or steal a car and you feel bad for them.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: This guy had everything. I don`t understand. Silver spoon, vacation in Switzerland.

LUDWIG: But sometimes those are the exact people that commit the crimes, because it either is happening with people who are very entitled, they get everything, the world is their oyster. So in their head they really believe that they should get everything that they want. And then the extremely poor people who are abused in retaliation they feel, "Well, I was so abused in life, I should be able to get whatever I want." So it`s both extremes.

GRACE: We saw that today at the parole board hearing.

LUDWIG: Yes, yes.

GRACE: So, Lisa, when you have people -- I know you try a lot of cases. But when you -- there he is in his earlier wrestling days. He was a star on the wrestling team. When you take somebody for a parole board hearing, you basically tell them, "Sit down and shut up, for Pete`s sake." Because when he spattered off at the end, that blew it.

WAYNE: And I don`t disagree with you on that, Nancy. I mean, the problem though is that you`re dealing with people. And lawyers know that you can`t control the emotions, the feelings, the frustrations that you have with clients. And he was showing real frustration, emotion, however you want to characterize it.

I look at it a little differently than you all because I have seen these people who are at such a loss, they`re so frustrated, they`re powerless, and that`s how they show it.

GRACE: Oh, you mean like this rape victim was at the back of that Jeep?

WAYNE: Well, you know what? Again, that`s a distinction. You have got to remember, you said something very important. And that is that he pled no contest. To plead no contest on a sexual assault case never happens. Those are cases where they can`t prove it, that there`s pressure on this kid...

GRACE: Are you telling me...

WAYNE: And that doesn`t happen in this country.

GRACE: ... that this guy is innocent? Just yes or no? Are you saying he`s innocent?

WAYNE: You know what? He has persisted in his innocence. He always had. And I`m backing him on that, because I believe that that`s true.

GRACE: All right. You go ahead and do that, even after you heard what these two rape victims said. You know what? Power to you.

WAYNE: It`s easy to make up all -- it`s easy to make those kind of accusations without cross-examination, Nancy. You can say whatever you want to.

GRACE: If you will recall, this case went to trial...

WAYNE: One of them did.

GRACE: ... I`d like to finish, Lisa -- on the first rape victim. And the jury found him guilty. And he was sentenced. I think the jury knows the evidence much better than any of us.

Quick break. Now to "Trial Tracking": Sarah Johnson -- I`m not letting it go -- the 16-year-old Idaho girl who`s accused of shooting her parents to death, well, oh, boo-hoo, she`s back in court. She is crying now. She was dry-eyed the day her parents were murdered. Prosecutors say she opened fire when they disapproved of her 19-year-old illegal alien boyfriend with a drug arrest. The defense called Sarah`s high school vice principal to the stand to trash the boyfriend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON MARTINEZ, VICE PRINCIPAL, WOOD RIVER HIGH SCHOOL: Saw him a number of different times with the number 13 on his possession. We also had differing occasions of where he wore either a red or a blue scarf on his belt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was the scarf a colored scarf?

MARTINEZ: Colored scarf. Again, my understanding is that a blue one is for a certain affiliation with the gang. Red is the same symbol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Defense strategy, clearly they are trying to point the finger at the boyfriend as the killer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: I have water balloon fights and climbing trees. I think that those two are my favorite.

MARTIN BASHIR, BBC DOCUMENTARY HOST: And you prefer making love or going to a concert or...

JACKSON: Hmm?

BASHIR: You really mean that, that you prefer climbing trees and having a balloon fight?

JACKSON: A water balloon fight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, maybe I`m crazy. Did I just hear him say he`d rather have a water balloon fight or climb a tree rather than go to a concert or have sex? Did I hear that, Robi? I did hear that, yes.

LUDWIG: You did hear that.

GRACE: OK, that was a clip from the ABC version of the BBC documentary by Martin Bashir. Today, the jury in the Jackson child sex case got their first look at Jackson`s bedroom suite. A video taken from a raid -- remember when the cops raided Neverland? It shows the room where Jackson allegedly molested a 13-year-old boy.

Let`s go straight out to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell. Hi, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Hey, Nancy. How are you doing tonight?

GRACE: Well, I`m feeling better. What went down in the courtroom today?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, another extremely, extremely exciting day in court. As you mentioned, they played a video of Michael Jackson`s master bedroom and some doll rooms and toy rooms. And, that was exciting enough. That sheriff`s officer left the stand...

GRACE: Jane, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... and we expected another one. And then we got the sister of the accuser which was -- we weren`t expecting her that early, Nancy. So it was a shocker that she suddenly showed up as early as she did.

GRACE: You know you just said you were excited to see video of a doll room. You said that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s very dramatic. And you have to understand this is no ordinary doll room. This is a doll room with mannequins that are taller than I am with Supermans, and Batmans, and Darth Vaders, and R2-D2s. It`s absolutely an astounding place. And it left a lot of people like -- with their jaws dropping.

GRACE: Tom?

CURRAN: The guy`s a freak. I mean, I hope my nephews and nieces have turned the channel right now. I mean, he is a freak.

GRACE: But wait a minute. You know, it`s easy to take a pot shot at this guy because he is weird, he is freakish. But what about the molestation charges? That`s what I want to hear about.

Jane, what did we hear -- OK, back to the bedroom. Did the jury see the secret hidey-hole?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, here`s what happened. The big bombshell of the day came very late in the day of a sister of the accuser took the stand. And she said that she saw Michael Jackson pouring wine to her brother, the accuser, her other younger brother. And another young boy, who was a relative of one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, also offered the wine to her. They all drank it.

How did she know it was wine? It was clear. It was in a wine bottle. And it tasted funny.

That was the big bombshell. This happened in a secret area that is behind the arcade. In other words, you`re in the video arcade. You move the jukebox and you go into this secret corridor. And you come into the wine cellar.

She said she actually followed the boys there with Michael Jackson one time. She was often sort of shunted aside. And she decided to follow them and that`s what she saw. So that was really the big bombshell of the day because alcohol is a very, very important factor in this case.

GRACE: Yes. It really is.

And let me go to you, Joe Episcopo. You know why it`s so important? And correct me if I`m wrong on this. Because this is not like at a bar someone feeding alcohol or selling alcohol to a minor. This is specifically giving alcohol to a minor for a lewd or lascivious purpose.

EPISCOPO: Well, now, wait a minute. You just jumped a whole thing there. Contributing to the delinquency of a minor, yes, giving them alcohol.

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: But for that purpose, that`s what you say. That`s not necessarily what happened.

GRACE: I`m talking about the indictment. I`m asking you about the burden of proof, the elements the state has to show here, Joe.

EPISCOPO: Yes. And that`s, you know, you just can`t make that automatic jump that that`s the reason he did that.

GRACE: OK, Joe, when it comes to pedophiles, do you defend them?

EPISCOPO: Yes, I do.

GRACE: OK. Do you think they can ever be cured?

EPISCOPO: Well, first of all, let me say this, that Michael Jackson is not...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No. I asked you a question. I`m asking you a question. Please be direct. Do you think pedophiles can be cured?

EPISCOPO: I don`t know. And you don`t know, either.

GRACE: OK, that`s all I wanted to know. Yes, thanks. Thanks for answering the question.

Let me go to you, Lisa Wayne. Do you think child molesters can ever be cured?

WAYNE: No. I do not.

GRACE: I don`t either.

WAYNE: I don`t. I think it is impulse control. And unfortunately we have not come up with whatever medication or whatever needs to be done to control that. I think it`s a lifelong thing. And I agree with you on this point. I don`t think that it`s something that can be cured. We know that.

GRACE: I have got a couple of ideas of what we could do with them.

WAYNE: Well, I know, I know.

GRACE: But they`re actually unconstitutional.

WAYNE: Right, right.

GRACE: Dr. Robi Ludwig, is he living in a fantasy land? I`m like, you have got a 45-year-old man sneaking off behind the arcade sipping wine out of a coke bottle.

LUDWIG: It definitely sounds like he`s fixated in this very childlike adolescent mode of operating. And so I would wonder, even with his childlike voice, what trauma happened to him at that time...

GRACE: Childlike voice?

LUDWIG: Yes. It`s whispery.

GRACE: I have actually heard, Jane Velez -- I`m going to come back to you, Rob -- that he actually has a very deep voice, except he chooses to speak falsetto.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: A lot of people have said that. In fact...

GRACE: They`re making me wrap, Jane. Jane, Elizabeth`s cracking the whip. I have got to go to break. Be right back.

As we go to break, we want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Jennifer Clemmings. January, 2003, 32-year-old Jennifer, stabbed to death by an intruder in her own home, near my home, Decatur, Georgia. If you have any information on this beautiful girl, Jennifer Clemmings, call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation at 888-813-8389. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I`m Sophia Choi. Let`s get to your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Martha Stewart has spent the past five months locked up learning how to live the life of an inmate. Now she is hours from leaving Alderson Federal Women`s Prison in West Virginia to begin the next phase of her sentence. After boarding a private jet tonight, she will spend the next five months on house arrest at the mansion in Bedford, New York.

Pope John Paul II could get out of the hospital in time for Easter. Vatican officials say the pontiff`s health continues to improve. He`s been in a hospital for a week after undergoing a tracheotomy.

Sixty-seven hours, 23,000 miles, and lots of smiles later, Steve Fossett became the first person to fly around the world without stopping or refueling. Fossett landed his custom-built Global Flyer this afternoon in Kansas. Richard Branson, the founder of Virgin Atlantic, financed the flight and broke out the champagne when the trip was over.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: We have guestrooms. But whenever kids come here, they always want to stay with me. They never want to stay in the guest -- and I have never invited them in my room. They always just want to stay. They say, "Can I stay with you tonight?" I go, "If it`s OK with your parents, yes, you can."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, that`s from the ABC version of the BBC documentary by Martin Bashir.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, from "Celebrity Justice," did any of the jurors just fall off their seat when they saw that?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to tell you that we saw a lot of what looked like secret chambers or heard about them all day today. There was the secret wine cellar. Then the master bedroom, that is Michael Jackson`s master bedroom, is really more like an apartment. We saw a video of it.

You go in. There`s a grand piano. There`s a couch. There`s a bathroom. And then you go up this flight of stairs and to the right is a bed with a very glittery bedspread. And that is where some of the alleged molestations are said to have taken place.

So, as the video camera by the sheriff`s department goes up and makes a right, it`s almost like you`re getting the viewpoint of the younger brother who`s going to say he climbed those stairs and made a right and froze in his tracks as he looked through those banisters and saw, he claims, these molestations occurring.

Now, the defense tried to counter that the videographer was a tall man. So that, therefore, when he turned the camera, he would be seeing much higher than a youngster would be seeing. But then other people said, when we were talking about it, well, why couldn`t the boy climb up a couple more steps?

So it gave you a real though point of view of what this boy is going to testify to. And we think that this boy, the accuser`s kid brother, could very well be the next one to take the stand. It seems like the prosecution is mixing it up and bringing up these strong, crucial witnesses higher up on their witness list.

GRACE: Interesting. When are we going to see everything that was seized from Neverland?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I mean, there is so much evidence in this case. I have a little purple tag that I put on every piece of evidence that comes in. And I`ve got tags coming out of my ears at this point.

I mean, there is so much evidence that it`s coming in as the foundation is laid, as each witness talks and sets it up. So I don`t know exactly when, but you`re going to see so much evidence in this case, it`s going to makes your head spin.

GRACE: Hey, Jane. I was asking you as we went to break, Robi brought up that he speaks in a very high falsetto voice. But it`s my understanding that he doesn`t always talk like that.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what a lot of people have said, that he has a sort of a private voice. I remember once during the 2002 case, and perhaps a little bit after that, after the baby dangling incident, that I asked him right at this very courthouse, "Hey, what do you think of Gloria Allred?" And he turned around. And all of a sudden, it was like he went out of character. And he said words to the effect of "tell her to go to hell."

She, of course, is the attorney who`s demanding an investigation based on the baby dangling. But when he said that, his voice dropped it seemed like almost an octave. And if you`ll notice, if you compare some of his earlier statements to some of his court statements, when he appeared wearing the spectacles, and he had the whole new look with defense attorney Tom Mesereau, if you check the tape, you`ll notice that his voice seems to be lower.

I noticed that when I was listening to it and walking away from the TV set. I said, "Who was that?" And then I turn around. That is Michael Jackson. So, his voice, the octaves change.

GRACE: You know, Robi, we`re just all trial lawyers here. But we need a shrink. Why would a grown man adopt a falsetto voice?

LUDWIG: You know, again, with Michael Jackson, you wonder if there`s the rock-star mentality, that because he is a rock star, he is able to do...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... falsetto?

LUDWIG: Well, maybe he feels that it works towards his image, that he is a performer. And what he does is he performs. So he must feel that it words towards his advantage in some way. Otherwise he wouldn`t do it.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, what`s your advice tonight for Michael Jackson? You have won a lot of cases.

EPISCOPO: I think he should continue to be the way he is and continue to project the image of what he is, because that`s what he is. He is a child. He stated that when he was growing up, they were out entertaining all the time and he didn`t have a childhood. Now he`s wealthy and he`s trying to have a childhood.

And that`s what he is living. He is living his childhood today even though he`s a grown man. That what makes him strange, but it doesn`t make him a pedophile, and it doesn`t mean he molested these children.

GRACE: Hey, look, I don`t have a problem with him climbing up in a tree and having water balloon fights. That`s his business. But when one kid says he sees him molesting another kid, and that kid backs him up, and there are two other accusers that I believe will come to the courtroom and say the same thing, Tom.

CURRAN: Well, you`d certainly start to suspect that there may be fire behind the smoke. And then he becomes not just criminally icky, he becomes a criminal pedophile. It`s something that you have to look for and you have to look into this. I`m not dismissing any of this.

I do agree with Joe that he has to be what he is. If he tries to -- if he came to court in a conservative blue Brooks Brothers suit, it would have a negative effect, I think, with the jury.

GRACE: But what is he coming to court in, Jane? I understand he`s never going to show up in a three-piece suit. But the insignia and the military pins, and that watch, is it over the top? Is the jury noticing it?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think it fits into the whole strange defense. If he showed up in a pinstripe suit and a white shirt and a conservative tie, I think people would be shocked and be confused. That would raise more questions than it would answer.

Today, he showed up in purple. And his family -- he had a purple shirt, purple socks. It was a purple theme with a black suit. Now his family also seemed to be in the purple family. His mother, Katherine, was wearing a bluish purple. One of his brothers had a purple tie. His publicist, Raymone Bain, was wearing a purple outfit. And I have to warn you, I`m also wearing purple today. But that wasn`t part of the plan. I didn`t get the memo.

GRACE: Jane? Jane, you`re drinking the Kool-aid. You`re drinking the Kool-aid.

Hey, hey, guys. Take a listen to this.

Go, Elizabeth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: We`re going to sleep. I tuck them in. I put little like music on, do a little story time. I read a book. It`s very sweet, put the fireplace on, give them hot milk. You know, we have little cookies. It`s very charming, very sweet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, you know what? That hurts. That`s, again, from the ABC version of the BBC documentary by Martin Bashir.

Lisa Wayne, the jury has seen the documentary. Now, look, I know you`re a dyed-in-the-wool defense lawyer. I get it. But you have to admit that had to just kind of like raise the hair on the back of their necks.

WAYNE: Well, it might. But, frankly, I think it plays into the defense. And when I`m watching that, it`s very surreal. But in a courtroom, when all of us are watching that, I have to tell you, you`re looking at Michael Jackson. You`re listening to this. And it`s sympathetic.

GRACE: Milk and cookies?

WAYNE: Yes, he`s a nice guy who`s living in this fantasy world. But again, he`s not a pedophile which is a violent offense. This is not a violent guy. And you can`t dismiss that. I mean, I think it`s sympathetic and I don`t think it plays against Michael Jackson at all.

GRACE: The defense wants everyone else to enter that fantasy world and suspend disbelief.

WAYNE: I don`t think so.

GRACE: What we really have is a 45-year-old guy bringing kids, little boys, into his bed. And everybody looks the other way because he`s rich and famous, Robi.

LUDWIG: Well, I mean, that`s certainly one take. I mean, you can certainly look at Michael Jackson two ways. One, he`s certainly fits the profile of a pedophile. It`s somebody...

GRACE: What`s the profile of a pedophile?

LUDWIG: Well, it`s somebody who has fantasies towards children, usually right around the cusp of adolescence because adolescences, like 13, they`re exploring and curious about sex. And so they have these fantasies that they`re compelled to act on.

Usually they find ways to be around children and find vulnerable children so that they won`t be questioned but they try to live normal. And that`s where Michael Jackson departs in his presentation. He doesn`t pretend to be normal. He advertises. So is he a performer pedophile? I don`t know.

So one could look at him that way, well, he idealizes children, or the other.

GRACE: Well, I can tell you all this is all going to depend on the credibility of this little boy. If he is destroyed on cross-examine and the jury believes he is being coached into lying for money, it`s over. It is over.

Quick break. When we come back, guess what? Closing arguments in the trial of "Baretta`s" trial, that`s right, Robert Blake. The jury`s looking at deliberations.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALD SCHWARTZBACH, ROBERT BLAKE`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When counsel talked about an issue, talked about Mr. Blake`s behavior at the scene, they stuck blinders on you. They didn`t talk about all of the evidence, didn`t analyze. I`m going to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Robert Blake on trial for the murder of his wife, Bonny Lee Bakley. Essential, the defense was, "She`s a tramp. You shouldn`t care."

Let`s go straight out to Joe Episcopo.

Joe, do you think this guy`s going to walk?

EPISCOPO: This is a tough one. You know, when I read about that stuntman who is a witness against him saying that he saw people dressed as plants in his yard and there`s a large, horned animal living in his yard and he tried to dig it up. And he stares out the window for hours with his binoculars, not a very good witness to try to convict somebody with. But if the jury...

GRACE: Hey, Joe?

EPISCOPO: What?

GRACE: Let`s just throw him out then if you think he has got a credibility problem. I agree with you, OK? Forget he exists. What about the rest of the case, like the time line?

Blake is with his wife. He goes back in to the restaurant to get his gun that somehow wriggled down from his crotch to his ankle and he didn`t feel a thing. Five minutes later, he comes out. This unknown, uncatchable assailant nobody sees -- he`s like the wind -- comes, kills his wife and then doesn`t get very far, drops the murder weapon in the Dixie dumpster right there at the scene almost as if the murderer never left the scene.

EPISCOPO: Nancy, this is a case that`s all motive, you know, and very little really direct evidence. It`s just motive. And motive`s not an element in the case. So there is a possibility he could be acquitted here. It`s just that I`m not sure he comes across to the jury as a very likable guy.

GRACE: When you say he didn`t come across as likable, what do you mean by that?

EPISCOPO: Well, look at the way he sits there in the box. And he`s brooding. And he just, you know, he`s just not the kind...

GRACE: Hey, I`m showing a picture of what...

EPISCOPO: Yes. He looks bad.

GRACE: That`s exactly the way he sat the entire time.

EPISCOPO: He looks bad.

GRACE: And another thing, another thing, Lisa Wayne, I know you have the judge instruct your juries on this. You are not to hold it against the defendant if they do not take the stand.

But when he didn`t take -- he`d sit down for Barbara Walters and cry the whole time. But he wouldn`t talk in front of the jury. I think they hold that against the defendant.

WAYNE: Well, you know, I don`t disagree with you. And whenever a defendant decides he`s going go in front of the media and talk and then get to trial and not talk, it does look bad. And you can`t have it both ways because that`s who you should be talking to if you ever going to talk.

So he is in a bad situation. But I`m assuming the lawyer talked about it. He talked about it in closing. And it is a circumstantial evidence case, and you know, Nancy, fortunately, unfortunately, jurors want physical evidence.

GRACE: Yes, they do.

WAYNE: And they don`t want to do it without physical evidence.

GRACE: Hey, Elizabeth, let me see if you got a shot of Bonny Lee Bakley. Bonny Lee Bakley was the one that was crucified in this trial. Because her reputation was lambasted. It`s almost as if, "She`s a tramp, jury. So, it`s probably one of these guys that hated her," without any real proof of this phantom killer.

In other words, her life is not as valuable as your lives, jurors. So you shouldn`t really worry about this case. Now, you know what, Robi, they are arguing that about her today. Tomorrow, it could be me or you.

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: I mean, that has truly been their strategy throughout is to attack the victim.

LUDWIG: Right. And what else are they going to do? They need to attack the victim. And also point out that there`s no physical linking evidence. Because if you look at Robert Blake, you certainly can imagine, and he basically states it, he wanted to get rid of this woman. He wanted her dead.

So the jury can imagine he wanted her dead. And so they have to kind of point the finger to her and say, you know, she was a disgusting person, good-bye, good riddance. And that`s what they`re trying to do.

GRACE: Tom, I do think Joe and Lisa are right about one thing. And that is, juries have come to expect some kind of sleuthing, some CSI physical evidence. What do we have here?

CURRAN: Well, you have a circumstantial case. But circumstantial cases...

GRACE: Nothing wrong with that.

CURRAN: There`s nothing wrong with that. I`ve tried many of them myself. I think, you know, there are no bonus points for being a really good killer and planning it out and eliminating the physical evidence. And you have to stress that as a prosecutor in the face of lack of physical evidence because jurors do want it.

GRACE: Wait a minute. What do they have?

CURRAN: They have two guys telling who don`t know each other -- have Blake telling them how he wants to kill his wife.

GRACE: Which is very similar to the way she died.

CURRAN: Yes, it just so happens.

GRACE: OK.

CURRAN: And, you know, there has to be a reason to doubt, not that, well, when no one is looking maybe little green monsters came down did it and then disappeared.

GRACE: So you have got these two guys both saying the same thing. They have no connection to each other, that Blake wanted them to kill Bonny Lee Bakley. What else do we have? We have got a little gunshot residue on his hands.

CURRAN: A little bit, even though he did wash his hands.

GRACE: Yes. We`ve got a time line that I think is pretty damning. What do you think about the time line?

CURRAN: Time line`s very damning. Going back to get this gun that, whoops, I forgot my gun in the restaurant. I mean, that`s, you know -- is that common sense? Can a jury relate to that? And I think Joe alludes -- I don`t think they`re going to relate to him very well.

The defense is not just, you know, the old saying, "Some people just need killing," although there is a measure of that here. I think they brought all of this up to point out, hey, there were a lot of people who wanted to kill this lady.

GRACE: But, you know, Joe Episcopo, this theory that some unknown came and assassinated Bonny Lee Bakley over what, this lonely heart club scam where she might get $200 off somebody?

EPISCOPO: Well, you know, the idea that you would concoct this thing to go back and get your gun, it`s almost believable because if he`s going to really have a planned killing, that doesn`t seem to be the way to do it, does it?

GRACE: Well, there`s no really good way to plan a killing. But, you know, the busboys and the people in the restaurant didn`t see a gun in the booth where he had been.

Very quickly, on his demeanor, what would you say about his demeanor in court?

LUDWIG: He`s pompous and entitled, and also very closely matched with his bad-boy image. So that does not work to his advantage.

CURRAN: You know, I think, you know, a lot of people wanted her dead. That`s his only opportunity.

GRACE: Everybody, we are going to a break.

But before we go, it has now been over a week since nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford disappeared in Homosassa, Florida. She came home from bible study, Wednesday, February 23. Her grandmother tucked her into bed around 10:00 p.m. And she has never been seen since. Citrus County Sheriff Jeff Dawsy issued a plea to Jessica`s kidnapper to call him directly to negotiate a release. The Post Office sent out 42,000 missing person fliers with her picture, hoping someone will come forward. Take a look.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back. Also, remember, you can catch our trial, the Sarah Johnson case, weekdays at Court TV`s "Closing Arguments," 3:00 to 5:00. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m almost afraid to ask, but, final thoughts, Joe Episcopo?

EPISCOPO: On what?

GRACE: On the Robert Blake case.

EPISCOPO: Oh. I think that Blake`s got a chance for an acquittal. Just like everyone else has said, that the jury wants solid evidence to convict somebody of murder.

GRACE: You know what? I think they want solid evidence, too, in a circumstantial case. Everybody, I`ve been giving Joe a hard time, but he`s won a lot more than he`s lost down there in his Florida jurisdiction.

Lisa Wayne, final thought?

WAYNE: I agree with you both. Proof beyond a reasonable doubt doesn`t seem -- they can`t get over the hurdle in this case. I think he`s going to walk.

GRACE: I don`t know. I think the time line is going to be the nail in the coffin, but we`ll see. We`ll see. I`m going to hold you to that, Lisa.

WAYNE: OK.

GRACE: Tom?

CURRAN: He`s got a shot. I don`t know if he`s going to walk on this. But he`s got a shot. His lawyer`s done a good job of portraying the victim, while not offending the jury by coming out and saying some people just need killing, but by saying, you know, a lot of people could have been motivated to do this.

GRACE: Who? Name one person.

CURRAN: This lonely hearts -- people get upset about that.

GRACE: Name a specific person.

CURRAN: Oh, there`s a universe of people out there that she scammed.

GRACE: Name one. See, that`s what`s bugging me. They never named one specific person that could have done this other than Blake. It`s just this amorphous group of men that want to kill her.

CURRAN: They just say, "We`re the defense. We don`t have to."

GRACE: OK, I got you.

LUDWIG: It`s not over until it`s over, but wanting a wife dead does not make a man guilty. Because there are a lot of husbands that want their wives dead but don`t act on that. So, again, we don`t know what`s going to happen. It`s not clear yet.

GRACE: But if you had to put money on it, Robi...

LUDWIG: See, if I had to put money on it, I would say he`s the most likely suspect. He had the most reason to be enraged with her. She scammed him. She...

GRACE: And what did it mean to you, psychologically, that, after she died, he didn`t try to render aid?

LUDWIG: He liked the idea that she was dead. But that doesn`t necessarily mean that he killed her.

GRACE: Got to go to break.

As we sign off, I want to remind you, Jessie Lunsford is still missing. If you have any information about her disappearance, please call this number, 352-726-1121.

Thank you, Joe Episcopo, Lisa Wayne, Tom Curran, Robi Ludwig, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

But my biggest thank you to you for inviting us into your home tonight. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. And I hope you join me back tomorrow night 8:00 Eastern. Good night, friend.

MIKE GALANOS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A jailed white supremacist is denying involvement in the shooting deaths of a federal judge`s husband and mother. Matthew Hale says he did not order the killings and none of his followers would commit such a crime. Hale is awaiting sentencing for trying to hire someone to kill the judge, Joan Humphrey Lefkow.

Two chimpanzees were shot and killed in an animal sanctuary near Bakersfield, California, after several of them escaped their cages and attacked sanctuary workers. Two people were seriously hurt. Officials say they don`t know how the animals got out of their cages.

Martha Stewart is expected to walk out of a federal prison in West Virginia after midnight Eastern time ending five months of confinement. She`ll be under house arrest for another five months. Stewart was convicted last year on charges related to her sale of ImClone stock.

So what will house arrest be like for the domestic diva? We`ll find out when Erica Hill joins me for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT." Hope you`ll join us.

END