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American Morning

Judge and Deputy Shot at Atlanta Courthouse

Aired March 11, 2005 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The snow is gone for now. Maybe it's back later. We'll see. 9:30 here in New York.
Good morning, everyone. In a moment here, a former friend and a man who knew Michael Jackson very well with some strong comments again today on what we could not take our ice off of yesterday outside that courthouse in California.

We'll get to that in a moment here.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Doctors say Bill Clinton's surgery was a success, but they ran into one hitch during the operation.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta's going to join with details on that.

First, a check of the headlines. Back to Carol Costello with us here, and there is news from the Vatican.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, there is. There's great news from the Vatican this morning. For the first time since his throat surgery, the pope is able to say a few words -- Listen.

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(INAUDIBLE)

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COSTELLO: I know it's hard to catch. But the Vatican just released this video of the pope. He's heard uttering a few words including "Ba Vene (ph)," which is Italian for OK. His voice barely audible, and he does sound frail. The 84-year-old pontiff has been resting at Gemelli Hospital in Rome since his tracheotomy just over two weeks ago.

To Iraq now, the U.S. military says at least 50 people are dead after a suicide bombing in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. The bomber attacked a funeral procession, 80 others were injured, at least 10 of them undergoing treatment at a U.S. military hospital. They're said to be in critical condition right now.

President Bush is set to name a new U.S. ambassador to Iraq. The president has tapped Balmay Kalazad (ph), the current U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. A formal announcement will come later today. If confirmed by the Senate, he'll replace John Negroponte, who was recently nominated to be the new director of national intelligence. And a $1 million offer in the Terri Schiavo right-to-die dispute. A California man wants Schiavo's husband Michael to keep her feeding tube intact. Without intervention, that tube will be removed last week. Michael Schiavo's lawyer says his client has already turned down other financial offers, one apparently for $10 million, and will decline this one as well -- Bill.

HEMMER: Sad story all the way around.

Carol, thanks for that.

Thirty-two minutes now past the hour.

Doctors expect former President Bill Clinton to make a full recovery, had his second operation in six months yesterday. What's the prognosis today?

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is back this morning. Good morning to you.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

HEMMER: There was a change in plan about midstream, right, four- hour operation? What did they have to change?

GUPTA: They said about three hours before; it turned out to be a four-hour operation. Yes, they always go into these operations with contingency plans. What they hope to do was do this through a very small incision, actually putting some small scopes into the chest, take out the scar that way. That didn't quite work. This is how Dr. Sonett, his surgeon, put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JOSHUA SONETT, CLINTON'S THORACIC SURGEON: It became quickly apparent that more was going to be needed. So then we find the best place to enter between another set of ribs, and we go between ribs and gently spread the ribs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So a little bit of a bigger operation, maybe a little bit sorer because of that. If they did it the other way, they wouldn't have actually had to spread his ribs, but they actually make a small incision, spread the ribs a little bit, remove the scar tissue and this fluid we've been talking so much about.

HEMMER: And you were talking yesterday about the muscle. Did they have to cut into it? Because oftentimes, that's what takes the longest time to recover...

GUPTA: To head, and you know, everyone asked about his golf game. And you know, that's going to be affected, you know, the swing, and that's going to hurt a little bit.

HEMMER: What would have happened had he not had this operation? GUPTA: That's a good question, and we asked that same question to the surgeons. He was having some difficulty breathing while walking up hills, for example, but he was still walking four to six miles. If that scar tissue continued to develop and the fluid continued to accumulate, he probably would have continued to have some troubles with that, where he couldn't do as much of the activities that he likes doing. It may have been slow -- he had 25 percent of his lung on left sort of affected by this, so you know, a significant amount. It probably would have got a little worse for him.

HEMMER: I understand they put a breathing tube of some sorts inside of him. Does that stay in? Or when does that come out?

GUPTA: Breathing tube -- he's under general anesthesia for the operation. That means he's asleep. They put the breathing tube in for that part of the operation, they take it out at the end of the operation. What does stay in is a chest tube, a chest tube that actually goes in toe chest and continues to drain whatever fluid might accumulate, and also, you know, within the actual chest cavity, there's no air, so it sucks all out the rest of the air, and that will taken out in two to five days.

HEMMER: The one thing that surprised me, if you read all about this and listen to people like yourself, this is a rare operation. Not many people had to go through this after what he did six months ago.

GUPTA: Yes, and to be fair, it's a rare complication. The guy who did this operation, the original operation, says he's only had this happen 10 times out of 6,000. I bet he wishes one of those 10 wasn't the former president. On the other hand, the operation itself is more common, done for other reasons.

HEMMER: You're right about that.

Have a good weekend. Good to see you, Sanjay.

GUPTA: You, too. Take care.

HEMMER: All right. Here's Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's take you to some pictures, some aerial shots of downtown Atlanta. We are told that there's been a shooting in a courthouse in downtown Atlanta. It's the Fulton County courthouse. We're getting some reports now that shots have been fired. Apparently one person hit in that courtroom. Lots not known at this time, exactly what the status of that person who apparently has been hit, and we assume injured. Also circumstances behind the shooting unclear at this time. We're going to continue to follow this story, of course, as we get more information, and bring it to you right away.

Let's turn now back to the Michael Jackson case. Michael Jackson's accuser is returning to the stand after further cross examination on Monday, after testifying that the pop star molested him at least twice. The boy's testimony overshadowed Thursday, though, by Jackson's tardiness and his attire in the court, pajama bottoms and slippers.

Earlier, I spoke with Jackson's former spiritual adviser Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, about Jackson's state of mind, and I asked him if he's been surprised at all by what happened.

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RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, FORMER JACKSON SPIRITUAL ADVISER: Well, out of control focuses on the chaotic elements of the trial. It doesn't really capture the tragic element. This kind of precipitous decline in anyone's life can only lead to one place, god forbid, and that's the grave.

Michael looked deathly. It was almost like a death mask on him yesterday. Michael is a man who's meticulous about his public appearance. He never goes out without having his hair done and makeup artists.

The fact that he would allow himself to be seen in that kind of way just shows you how disoriented he was.

O'BRIEN: Or does it show you that actually maybe he really pulled out his back and he was in the emergency room and he went to the hospital in pajamas and his story has some credence? Do you buy it?

SHMULEY: No, Soledad, you and I have no -- we cannot fathom the degree of pain that Michael Jackson lives with, but it's not physical pain. It's the pain of a man who has put the locus of his importance externally in public popularity throughout his life and now sees it eroding and disappearing completely.

Michael has no identity outside of his fans, outside of the public. He cannot face what has happened to him. He cannot sit in that courtroom and look that child in the eye and hear how he's being told that he's a monster.

I remember when I used to sit with Michael many times and there would be tabloids that would just be saying wacko Jacko. He couldn't even look at those, let alone hearing that he's a molester.

Michael's whole life has been, in his mind, to be almost an ambassador for children. And now that he's accused of being this fiend, having had this nefarious agenda, he can't handle it.

Michael Jackson is headed to the grave. No one understands that. If only his lawyers would do the right thing and plea bargain this case. It's going to get worse. How much worse does it have to get? At what point does Judge Melville say this is all -- like a TKO? This is a technical knock out. This guy cannot continue in the trial.

O'BRIEN: So let's kind of follow-up on all those things.

Headed to the grave. You think he's going to take his own life? You think he's going to kill himself?

SHMULEY: No, no.

O'BRIEN: What do you mean then?

SHMULEY: I think that when you are on a certain degree of medication to help deal with reality, it can only lead to one place. Michael needs to be in serious rehabilitation. Michael needs to be in a place where he can get the psychological and spiritual help that I always knew he needed, that I tried and failed to provide him. I could never provide him with the rehabilitation element. But Michael needs serious spiritual and psychological renewal.

O'BRIEN: So you...

SHMULEY: This is not about a court case. This is not about lawyers. He doesn't need lawyers right now. Look at that man. Does it look like he needs Thomas Mesereau to convince a jury that he can continue with life? Does this look like a man that even if he's vindicated by a jury is going to somehow go on and prosper in some way?

O'BRIEN: But you're...

SHMULEY: This is a desiccated shell of a man.

O'BRIEN: Is he faking the back pain?

SHMULEY: The back pain and all the other mystery illnesses, in Michael's mind, are real enough. They are an external manifestation of ferocious internal torment. This is a man who is in ferocious pain. He always has been. It's not normal to disfigure yourself. Michael thinks that he's not beautiful, neither on the inside or the outside. He's never had an identity. He's never had a life. He's never had a childhood. He's always had to earn people's affection. He's always had to dance in order to get you to notice him.

You know, he once said to me, and I'll never forget this, it was one of the most moving moments that I had with him. He said to me, "Shmuley, everything that I did in my life, from moving my feet to singing my songs, has been in an effort to gain love." And now he sees that all slipping away from him and he can't handle it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was Jackson's former spiritual adviser talking a little bit earlier this morning. The jury's off today. The judge is going to hear, though, motions from both sides, and again, cross examination of Jackson's accuser resumes on Monday.

Let's get you right back to Atlanta, downtown Atlanta, where we're looking at aerial pictures of the Fulton County courthouse. There are now reports from our affiliates there saying that a deputy and a judge have been allegedly shot inside that courthouse. No word yet exactly on the status, although it's been described as multiple shots fired in this. You're looking at live some aerial pictures on that. We're going to update you on that story as soon as we get more information. The question, though, of course comes in the wake of the shooting of the judge in Chicago, what exactly happened here? And is this something that is a retaliatory move? I mean, obviously many questions remain. But seems like there was certainly more security placed around some of the judges, definitely in Chicago. Many questions to be asked about the circumstances of this shooting. We're going to bring that to you live as soon as we get information on that.

HEMMER: You wonder if a trial was under way, if a hearing was under way, whether or not this was a copycat act based on the news we were reporting from Chicago. At this point, we don't have many answers. WSB, our affiliate there working the story in Atlanta, Georgia, Fulton county.

Atlanta is the county seat, it is the state capital, and Fulton County at this part of the day would have been relatively crowded. You know, the rush hour goes up to about 40 minutes ago. It would not have been exceedingly crowded on the streets outside there. However, pretty nice day in Atlanta we can see on the outside, but a completely different story on the inside. And we have no reports right now about the condition of this deputy or this judge.

Let's pop into WSB and see what we can get on this.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: All right, David, we thank you for joining us this morning, and please be safe in there.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: OK. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: Right now we want to go to Channel 2's Alan Wong (ph). Alan, where are you, and can you describe what you're seeing?

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: Thanks, Carol.

I'm at Grady Hospital's emergency entrance where we've seen a lot of activity down here. I've seen at least two ambulances come here within the last ten minutes, along with what appear to be a lot of police officials, a lot of motorcycle escorts. Each ambulance did have motorcycle escorts. It appeared to be a lot of urgency. Security is very high here.

I spoke to an employee of the hospital. They tell me that they have transported three people. That is unconfirmed at this time, but it appears to correlate with the information we're getting. A lot of security down here. We're watching a lot of squad cars come in here, sirens blaring, appear to be bringing in police officials and other sorts of people. But right now that's all we have. A lot of activity down here, though.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: Alan, we want to update some new information that we have. Sources now are telling us that defendant who fired...

HEMMER: WSB Television reporting there. Let's get out of that and let you know what we're learning here. Grady Hospital, they mentioned, is just a few short blocks away from this location at the courthouse. They have a trauma center there, and all the cases that we normally hear with gunshots goes to Grady Hospital.

The Associated Press is reporting that the suspected shooter got away, and the shooter got away in a carjacked car. The extent of injuries not known. The shooting occurred shortly after 9:00 a.m. local time in Atlanta, which would've been about 42 minutes ago. Police now searching for a gray Mercury Sable that witnesses say the shooter carjacked in downtown Atlanta. That's about all we know at this point.

O'BRIEN: Actually, some information coming from the affiliate there. The word there, they are saying is that there is a report that in fact the suspect grabbed a gun, the gun used in the shooting, from a deputy and then shot that deputy with that gun, turned the gun on the judge.

So, the shooting happening inside the courtroom. Details, though, on exactly what case was being heard and the circumstances around that case unclear at the time.

HEMMER: Grady Hospital a short drive away, I mentioned. Two ambulances reported showing up there. At least three people now taken in to be treated for some sort of injury. The extent of the injuries, we do not know, but again this story developing on our watch now in Fulton County, Atlanta, Georgia.

O'BRIEN: And it appears that they are still looking for -- if you believe reports that we're hearing, for the carjacker, who, also the shooter, who apparently has gotten away in a gray Mercury Sable. According to witnesses, that was the car that was carjacked, and then driven off in. So, many questions.

As you can see, the press has descended on the area, and, of course, police as well. Also, at the hospital we heard reports where two ambulances pulled up; three people reported injured, at the very least. That's coming from some witnesses and according to the hospital. However, we do not know the extent of the injuries, or, again, the circumstances of what exactly was happening inside the courtroom. No better description than what we've gotten from some of the television reports locally that say that the shooter seems to have grabbed a gun inside the courtroom from the deputy, shot the deputy with the gun, and then turned the gun on the judge as well. Then he took off in a car.

HEMMER: A little more locally, they're saying that the judge, the deputy, and the court reporter all were shot. Unconfirmed reports that all three have passed away as a result of those gunshot wounds, but again this is stuff we're picking up right now in Atlanta. We have a number of affiliates down there. WAGA working that story, WSB television as well.

None of this we can confirm, but there's also reports, Soledad, that says on the eighth floor of this courthouse building is where the incident took place. And very intriguing what you're saying about this suspect now grabbing the gun that would have been held by a deputy at this point inside the courthouse.

O'BRIEN: We're looking at pictures, live pictures, coming to us from our affiliate there, of a person being brought into the ambulance. So another person. If we are to go with the reports that we heard earlier, three people were transported. This may be then a fourth person; it is unclear exactly. But we heard reports from the hospital that three people were injured and have been transported to the hospital. We're seeing somebody on a stretcher being put into the ambulance, and are obviously going to get some details on the extent of the injuries of all of these people.

They are now looking for this shooter/carjacker who apparently has taken off in a gray Mercury Sable after shooting the deputy -- if you believe reports that we're getting -- the judge, the court reporter, then ran out of the court and hopped into a stolen car and has taken off. And at this hour, they are now searching for the carjacker. We're not getting any description of the shooter at this point, yet.

HEMMER: WSB Television is reporting now the judge has been shot and is indeed dead. We don't have a name of this judge yet, and we would not give that out anyway on behalf of the families that may be watching this report or a similar report in Atlanta, Georgia.

The courthouse has been locked down. You would anticipate a move like that in this story. Several city blocks have been shut down as well in downtown Atlanta. The search continues for the shooter, but again WSB television is reporting that the judge has been shot and has died on the scene there or at Grady Hospital just a few short streets away. The suspected shooter apparently got inside of a carjacked car, this coming from the Associated Press out of Atlanta. The extent of injuries again for the other people is not confirmed at this point.

But the shooting did take place about 9:00 a.m. local time which, on our watch, would have been 45 minutes ago. Police now searching for a gray Mercury Sable that witnesses say the shooter carjacked and then either got away or drove away or may possibly still be in the vicinity, but those are questions that we do not have answers for at this point.

O'BRIEN: Reports we're getting is that the judge, in fact, is dead. The wounded deputy, we are told, has been transported to Grady Memorial Hospital.

And you know, in the wake of all this investigation, after the Judge Lefkow's family shooting, her husband and her mother killed in Chicago, it is a chilling reminder of just how vulnerable these judges are when they're hearing cases. Obviously much more needs to be understood about the circumstances of this shooting. Was it some kind of retaliation for a case, was it some kind of personal issue, was the target the judge or the court reporter who apparently appears to be shot, the deputy appears to be shot and transported to the hospital as well. All we know is that the judge is dead, according to television reports. The wounded deputy, the wounded court reporter have been transported to the hospital.

And as you mentioned, the court has now been shut down, completely sealed off, as they search for this carjacker, who is also obviously the main suspect in the shooting.

HEMMER: WSB Television, we're watching this. Let's go ahead and listen again to what they're reporting in Atlanta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...a hail of gunfire up on the eighth floor by a suspect. Ambulances continue to come and go from this area. We're not sure really what they're doing here. As this scene has kind of taken on a crime scene mode, while the search for the suspect goes on in other parts of the city. We see a lot of deputies that have arrived here at the courthouse to go inside running to figure out what happened to one of their colleagues, and then one of the judges here. A court reporter also involved in the shooting.

It is unclear how many people inside the courtroom when this happened. I did talk to some people on that were on that floor who said immediately deputies figured out what happened and went inside and sealed off all the courtrooms to prevent anybody else from going out into the hallways in the immediate moments after this shooting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Ross, you mentioned about the role that the Fulton County deputies play in the courthouse, and we often see them in the courtroom. They provide security there, and they are also the ones that transport the prisoners into the court or people that may be in the jail coming over for court cases.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct, and the one thing that is somewhat unclear to me is which of those deputies are armed and which are not. Often when you see them in the courtroom they are not wearing sidearms. Each sheriff's department has a different set of policies when it comes to security inside the courtrooms. I've been in the Fulton County courthouse on numerous occasions, and really, I can't tell you which deputies would be armed and which would not. I would assume those transporting prisoners to and from the Fulton County jail -- and that happens in large numbers many different times during the day -- I would imagine those folks are armed. It seems to me that those that are in the immediate courtroom often are not armed. That's something that we'll be getting into as the day goes an, exactly which deputy was involved and what role that deputy was playing in the courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, Ross, thank you very much.

Now we have Channel 2's Tom Wagner in News Chopper 2. Can you tell us what you're seeing from up there?

TOM WAGNER, CHANNEL 2: Well, we just arrived here over the scene here, just adjacent to Underground Atlanta, off Pryor Street, where we understand a judge has been shot. We do have a police air unit in the scene, somewhere between Centennial Park and 17th Street, looking for the perpetrator involved in the shooting.

As you can see from News Chopper 2, numerous police cruisers on the scene. We're not sure where all the people, pedestrians, here on the street, what people they've evacuated from, whether the courthouse or adjacent buildings.

They do have crime scene. As we turn around the street -- turn around the corner here look at Pryor Street here, they do have crime tape out there blocking.

We do understand -- I'm listening to scanner traffic where the perpetrator possibly hijacked, carjacked rather as many as four different cars. The last one he abandoned in a parking lot real close though this location and where he possibly is on foot at this time, where APD units continue to look for him.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: All right, thank you very much for giving us the update from there. As obviously a massive search is now under way for the suspect and a lot of anguish and confusion at the Fulton County Courthouse right now. We just want update you on what we know so far. We have confirmed through sources that a superior court judge at the Fulton County Courthouse, Judge Rowland Barnes, has been shot dead in the courtroom.

They are looking for a man who fled from that scene. Very vague description. A tall black male, bald head, dark colored clothing. He left that area then tried to carjack two different vehicles before police believe he finally got into a third vehicle. They think that they are looking for a gray Mercury Sable, but it also could be a green Honda Accord. Apparently an attempt to get into several different cars before that person finally was successful and did take off. The latest word is a gray Mercury Sable headed towards Spring Street. Big search under way trying to find that person.

Meanwhile at the courthouse, we talked to an eyewitness who works on the first floor who said pretty much everybody is in lockdown right now in the courthouse. Whatever floor they worked on or had business on, they are just staying there as all of the police and the marshals and what not have been searching through that building, trying to secure that building. But we understand that apparently this person was in the courtroom or on the eighth floor for some reason and apparently grabbed a Fulton County sheriff's deputy's gun, shot that deputy, then a judge, and we're getting word, a court reporter.

Now we have gotten confirmation from Grady Memorial Hospital that two deputies were transported there. So we are still trying to sort out exactly how many people were shot and what were the extent of the injuries of the people that were transported.

HEMMER: WSB Television, our eyes and ears on the ground there in Atlanta, Georgia. We have a witness on the phone with us. Vickie Warner.

Vickie, can you hear me?

VICKIE WARNER, EYEWITNESS: Yes.

HEMMER: Listen, where were you when this happened? WARNER: I was in my office in the Fulton County Courthouse building. The secretary and I, we were just having a conversation. And we heard about three or four shots and looked out the window and we saw this guy running across the street with a gun and to the underground parking deck.

HEMMER: Did you see him leave that parking deck?

WARNER: Yes, we saw him leave the parking deck. He left out in I think it was a Jeep. And a guy came out about that time and a police officer and the patrol car came up and the guy that came out the underground parking deck pointed to the guy that was leaving out. So the officer took off behind him. So at the time we didn't know anyone had been shot.

HEMMER: You say a Jeep. Can you describe it more?

WARNER: I believe it was a gray Jeep, a little like a Cherokee. But it was just so much going on, because we just couldn't believe that, you know, all this was taking place first thing this morning.

HEMMER: Did you get a good look at him, this gentleman?

WARNER: No, I just saw him from behind. He had an a blue shirt, black pants. And he was running into the underground parking deck with a gun in his hand.

HEMMER: Where are you now, Vickie?

WARNER: I'm in my office.

HEMMER: So you're still on the fourth floor of the courthouse in Fulton County, right?

WARNER: We're on the sixth floor.

HEMMER: Sixth floor, I apologize. Give us a sense for what you're seeing right now. Is it outside your window or down the hall?

WARNER: It's -- we're looking out the window, police cars, everywhere, ambulances, people, a lot of confusion. People upset, concerned, of course. And it's just really chaotic right now.

HEMMER: We're told the courthouse is locked down. Is that right?

WARNER: Yes.

HEMMER: And again, go back to the shooting. You heard three or four shots, is that right?

WARNER: Yes, three or four shots. And we looked out the window, the secretary and I. And we saw this guy running across the street with a gun in his hand into the underground parking deck.

HEMMER: Yes, Vickie, what time did this happen? It's now 9:54 there in Atlanta.

WARNER: Yes, probably about -- it may have been about 9:20, 9:30, something like that.

HEMMER: OK, so just about 30 minutes ago you're saying?

WARNER: Yes, about 30 minutes.

HEMMER: Vickie, what's your job there at the courthouse?

WARNER: I'm a case manager.

HEMMER: OK. Well, listen, thank you for your time. We really appreciate you joining us, especially under these trying circumstances. Vickie Warner, an eyewitness who says she saw -- or heard three or four shots. On the sixth floor is where she works. But we're told based on reports out of Atlanta that the shooting happened on the eighth floor of this building. She saw a guy running into a parking garage, which would go along the similar lines about what other people have said about this man running into a parking garage, then possible carjacking at least one, maybe two or more cars in that area. And needless to say, there is a search underway now for this man in Atlanta, Georgia.

O'BRIEN: In fact, we're told that police air units have taken to the skies. They're searching, of course, for the perpetrator. Police cruisers on the ground coordinating with those air units, trying to block off some of the streets, see if they can get a sense of where he could heading. Here's the thing.

We've heard now three different descriptions potentially of a vehicle that this suspect might be in. For example, Vickie, your guest, just described it as a gray Cherokee. That's a little bit consistent with the gray from the Mercury Sable, which is what some of the local affiliates and other witnesses were describing that police were looking for. And there's also a description of a green Honda that police might be looking for as well.

So obviously, lots of confusion on the scene as they try to figure out if, in fact, the suspect is in any of these vehicles or at any point was in any of these vehicles or if he's ditched the vehicles altogether and is now on foot. That was a suggestion that was raised from some of the folks in the air as they are continuing to search for the perpetrator in this shooting.

Also, reports, in fact, that two deputies were transported to the hospital. Now, those are not consistent with other reports that only described it as one deputy. That would bring, then, the number to four, potentially, of people shot. The court reporter, two deputies, if that is accurate, coming from the hospital. And the judge. Reports are telling us that the judge has been killed. This is just one of many questions that we're trying to sort through as we continue to get information from the scene.

The eyewitnesses, some who now have been locked into their offices. The courtroom locked down from the outside also consider what's happening on the inside. Inside, they don't want people who are in adjoining courtrooms or nearby courtrooms to come out into the hallway. They have locked them all down as well. So obviously lots going on inside the building.

And we can see some of the action outside as well, where they have surrounded this building, ambulances. A number of ambulances, transporting some of the injured and, of course, trying to figure out where the suspect, who appears to have taken off, has gone or is heading.

HEMMER: So let's try and put this all together for you now. A story developing here in Atlanta, Georgia. Fulton County at the courthouse there. What we know at this point, based on the reports we're getting out of Atlanta is that a Fulton County judge, a superior court judge, has been shot and killed and at least two others have been wound as a result. There was one report that suggested the gunman had literally taken a gun off of a deputy inside the courthouse and used that particular weapon to fire away.

We know of at least two people taken to Grady Memorial. That's about -- oh, just a few blocks away from this courthouse that we're watching here on camera. Police have shut down a number of streets. They've closed down the courthouse. And right now there is a search underway to try and find this man, wherever he is. WGCO right now with a picture out of Atlanta.

O'BRIEN: And we're getting from our affiliate WAGA, as we try to sort through just how many people have actually been shot, that two deputies are treated at the hospital. No confirmation, though, on if both deputies were shot or if the other deputy was just injured in some way, shape or form. Obviously there's lots more that we're trying to sort through as police have surrounded not only the scene, but have taken to the streets as they try to track down the suspect.

Very vague description, some of which we got from your guest, the eyewitness who only saw the perpetrator, she says, from the back, where she saw a black man in a navy top and black pants running the car parking garage and then making his way, with a gun. And obviously she described the scene as very upsetting to many of the people who are now in lockdown as they try to sort through what happened.

HEMMER: Obviously there was some sort of legal proceeding under way. Whether it was just a hearing of sorts or whether there was a trial underway or some have even suggested early on this could have been a copycat based on the reports we've been getting out of Milwaukee this week as it relates to the shooting in Chicago. And again, we walk with a bit of caution right now, because we do not have clear answers on so many of these questions.

What we do understand, though, eighth floor, the Fulton County Courthouse, shots rang out, a judge is dead as a result and at least two others now have been rushed to the local hospital. No update at this point as to their condition. The woman we were talking to, Vickie Warner, a witness on the sixth floor, all she could really tell us was that she heard three or four shots in the floors above her and then looked out and saw this man running to a parking garage, then later leaving with some sort of SUV. Perhaps he tried to carjack more than one vehicle, but at this point we're not sure. A search underway in Atlanta, Georgia, at this hour.

O'BRIEN: And our coverage continues now with Daryn Kagan. She is in Atlanta. She's going to take you through the rest of the morning and also get some more details on this breaking story. Daryn, good morning.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired March 11, 2005 - 09:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The snow is gone for now. Maybe it's back later. We'll see. 9:30 here in New York.
Good morning, everyone. In a moment here, a former friend and a man who knew Michael Jackson very well with some strong comments again today on what we could not take our ice off of yesterday outside that courthouse in California.

We'll get to that in a moment here.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Doctors say Bill Clinton's surgery was a success, but they ran into one hitch during the operation.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta's going to join with details on that.

First, a check of the headlines. Back to Carol Costello with us here, and there is news from the Vatican.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, there is. There's great news from the Vatican this morning. For the first time since his throat surgery, the pope is able to say a few words -- Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: I know it's hard to catch. But the Vatican just released this video of the pope. He's heard uttering a few words including "Ba Vene (ph)," which is Italian for OK. His voice barely audible, and he does sound frail. The 84-year-old pontiff has been resting at Gemelli Hospital in Rome since his tracheotomy just over two weeks ago.

To Iraq now, the U.S. military says at least 50 people are dead after a suicide bombing in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. The bomber attacked a funeral procession, 80 others were injured, at least 10 of them undergoing treatment at a U.S. military hospital. They're said to be in critical condition right now.

President Bush is set to name a new U.S. ambassador to Iraq. The president has tapped Balmay Kalazad (ph), the current U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan. A formal announcement will come later today. If confirmed by the Senate, he'll replace John Negroponte, who was recently nominated to be the new director of national intelligence. And a $1 million offer in the Terri Schiavo right-to-die dispute. A California man wants Schiavo's husband Michael to keep her feeding tube intact. Without intervention, that tube will be removed last week. Michael Schiavo's lawyer says his client has already turned down other financial offers, one apparently for $10 million, and will decline this one as well -- Bill.

HEMMER: Sad story all the way around.

Carol, thanks for that.

Thirty-two minutes now past the hour.

Doctors expect former President Bill Clinton to make a full recovery, had his second operation in six months yesterday. What's the prognosis today?

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is back this morning. Good morning to you.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

HEMMER: There was a change in plan about midstream, right, four- hour operation? What did they have to change?

GUPTA: They said about three hours before; it turned out to be a four-hour operation. Yes, they always go into these operations with contingency plans. What they hope to do was do this through a very small incision, actually putting some small scopes into the chest, take out the scar that way. That didn't quite work. This is how Dr. Sonett, his surgeon, put it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JOSHUA SONETT, CLINTON'S THORACIC SURGEON: It became quickly apparent that more was going to be needed. So then we find the best place to enter between another set of ribs, and we go between ribs and gently spread the ribs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So a little bit of a bigger operation, maybe a little bit sorer because of that. If they did it the other way, they wouldn't have actually had to spread his ribs, but they actually make a small incision, spread the ribs a little bit, remove the scar tissue and this fluid we've been talking so much about.

HEMMER: And you were talking yesterday about the muscle. Did they have to cut into it? Because oftentimes, that's what takes the longest time to recover...

GUPTA: To head, and you know, everyone asked about his golf game. And you know, that's going to be affected, you know, the swing, and that's going to hurt a little bit.

HEMMER: What would have happened had he not had this operation? GUPTA: That's a good question, and we asked that same question to the surgeons. He was having some difficulty breathing while walking up hills, for example, but he was still walking four to six miles. If that scar tissue continued to develop and the fluid continued to accumulate, he probably would have continued to have some troubles with that, where he couldn't do as much of the activities that he likes doing. It may have been slow -- he had 25 percent of his lung on left sort of affected by this, so you know, a significant amount. It probably would have got a little worse for him.

HEMMER: I understand they put a breathing tube of some sorts inside of him. Does that stay in? Or when does that come out?

GUPTA: Breathing tube -- he's under general anesthesia for the operation. That means he's asleep. They put the breathing tube in for that part of the operation, they take it out at the end of the operation. What does stay in is a chest tube, a chest tube that actually goes in toe chest and continues to drain whatever fluid might accumulate, and also, you know, within the actual chest cavity, there's no air, so it sucks all out the rest of the air, and that will taken out in two to five days.

HEMMER: The one thing that surprised me, if you read all about this and listen to people like yourself, this is a rare operation. Not many people had to go through this after what he did six months ago.

GUPTA: Yes, and to be fair, it's a rare complication. The guy who did this operation, the original operation, says he's only had this happen 10 times out of 6,000. I bet he wishes one of those 10 wasn't the former president. On the other hand, the operation itself is more common, done for other reasons.

HEMMER: You're right about that.

Have a good weekend. Good to see you, Sanjay.

GUPTA: You, too. Take care.

HEMMER: All right. Here's Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's take you to some pictures, some aerial shots of downtown Atlanta. We are told that there's been a shooting in a courthouse in downtown Atlanta. It's the Fulton County courthouse. We're getting some reports now that shots have been fired. Apparently one person hit in that courtroom. Lots not known at this time, exactly what the status of that person who apparently has been hit, and we assume injured. Also circumstances behind the shooting unclear at this time. We're going to continue to follow this story, of course, as we get more information, and bring it to you right away.

Let's turn now back to the Michael Jackson case. Michael Jackson's accuser is returning to the stand after further cross examination on Monday, after testifying that the pop star molested him at least twice. The boy's testimony overshadowed Thursday, though, by Jackson's tardiness and his attire in the court, pajama bottoms and slippers.

Earlier, I spoke with Jackson's former spiritual adviser Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, about Jackson's state of mind, and I asked him if he's been surprised at all by what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, FORMER JACKSON SPIRITUAL ADVISER: Well, out of control focuses on the chaotic elements of the trial. It doesn't really capture the tragic element. This kind of precipitous decline in anyone's life can only lead to one place, god forbid, and that's the grave.

Michael looked deathly. It was almost like a death mask on him yesterday. Michael is a man who's meticulous about his public appearance. He never goes out without having his hair done and makeup artists.

The fact that he would allow himself to be seen in that kind of way just shows you how disoriented he was.

O'BRIEN: Or does it show you that actually maybe he really pulled out his back and he was in the emergency room and he went to the hospital in pajamas and his story has some credence? Do you buy it?

SHMULEY: No, Soledad, you and I have no -- we cannot fathom the degree of pain that Michael Jackson lives with, but it's not physical pain. It's the pain of a man who has put the locus of his importance externally in public popularity throughout his life and now sees it eroding and disappearing completely.

Michael has no identity outside of his fans, outside of the public. He cannot face what has happened to him. He cannot sit in that courtroom and look that child in the eye and hear how he's being told that he's a monster.

I remember when I used to sit with Michael many times and there would be tabloids that would just be saying wacko Jacko. He couldn't even look at those, let alone hearing that he's a molester.

Michael's whole life has been, in his mind, to be almost an ambassador for children. And now that he's accused of being this fiend, having had this nefarious agenda, he can't handle it.

Michael Jackson is headed to the grave. No one understands that. If only his lawyers would do the right thing and plea bargain this case. It's going to get worse. How much worse does it have to get? At what point does Judge Melville say this is all -- like a TKO? This is a technical knock out. This guy cannot continue in the trial.

O'BRIEN: So let's kind of follow-up on all those things.

Headed to the grave. You think he's going to take his own life? You think he's going to kill himself?

SHMULEY: No, no.

O'BRIEN: What do you mean then?

SHMULEY: I think that when you are on a certain degree of medication to help deal with reality, it can only lead to one place. Michael needs to be in serious rehabilitation. Michael needs to be in a place where he can get the psychological and spiritual help that I always knew he needed, that I tried and failed to provide him. I could never provide him with the rehabilitation element. But Michael needs serious spiritual and psychological renewal.

O'BRIEN: So you...

SHMULEY: This is not about a court case. This is not about lawyers. He doesn't need lawyers right now. Look at that man. Does it look like he needs Thomas Mesereau to convince a jury that he can continue with life? Does this look like a man that even if he's vindicated by a jury is going to somehow go on and prosper in some way?

O'BRIEN: But you're...

SHMULEY: This is a desiccated shell of a man.

O'BRIEN: Is he faking the back pain?

SHMULEY: The back pain and all the other mystery illnesses, in Michael's mind, are real enough. They are an external manifestation of ferocious internal torment. This is a man who is in ferocious pain. He always has been. It's not normal to disfigure yourself. Michael thinks that he's not beautiful, neither on the inside or the outside. He's never had an identity. He's never had a life. He's never had a childhood. He's always had to earn people's affection. He's always had to dance in order to get you to notice him.

You know, he once said to me, and I'll never forget this, it was one of the most moving moments that I had with him. He said to me, "Shmuley, everything that I did in my life, from moving my feet to singing my songs, has been in an effort to gain love." And now he sees that all slipping away from him and he can't handle it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was Jackson's former spiritual adviser talking a little bit earlier this morning. The jury's off today. The judge is going to hear, though, motions from both sides, and again, cross examination of Jackson's accuser resumes on Monday.

Let's get you right back to Atlanta, downtown Atlanta, where we're looking at aerial pictures of the Fulton County courthouse. There are now reports from our affiliates there saying that a deputy and a judge have been allegedly shot inside that courthouse. No word yet exactly on the status, although it's been described as multiple shots fired in this. You're looking at live some aerial pictures on that. We're going to update you on that story as soon as we get more information. The question, though, of course comes in the wake of the shooting of the judge in Chicago, what exactly happened here? And is this something that is a retaliatory move? I mean, obviously many questions remain. But seems like there was certainly more security placed around some of the judges, definitely in Chicago. Many questions to be asked about the circumstances of this shooting. We're going to bring that to you live as soon as we get information on that.

HEMMER: You wonder if a trial was under way, if a hearing was under way, whether or not this was a copycat act based on the news we were reporting from Chicago. At this point, we don't have many answers. WSB, our affiliate there working the story in Atlanta, Georgia, Fulton county.

Atlanta is the county seat, it is the state capital, and Fulton County at this part of the day would have been relatively crowded. You know, the rush hour goes up to about 40 minutes ago. It would not have been exceedingly crowded on the streets outside there. However, pretty nice day in Atlanta we can see on the outside, but a completely different story on the inside. And we have no reports right now about the condition of this deputy or this judge.

Let's pop into WSB and see what we can get on this.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: All right, David, we thank you for joining us this morning, and please be safe in there.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: OK. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: Right now we want to go to Channel 2's Alan Wong (ph). Alan, where are you, and can you describe what you're seeing?

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: Thanks, Carol.

I'm at Grady Hospital's emergency entrance where we've seen a lot of activity down here. I've seen at least two ambulances come here within the last ten minutes, along with what appear to be a lot of police officials, a lot of motorcycle escorts. Each ambulance did have motorcycle escorts. It appeared to be a lot of urgency. Security is very high here.

I spoke to an employee of the hospital. They tell me that they have transported three people. That is unconfirmed at this time, but it appears to correlate with the information we're getting. A lot of security down here. We're watching a lot of squad cars come in here, sirens blaring, appear to be bringing in police officials and other sorts of people. But right now that's all we have. A lot of activity down here, though.

UNIDENTIFIED WSB REPORTER: Alan, we want to update some new information that we have. Sources now are telling us that defendant who fired...

HEMMER: WSB Television reporting there. Let's get out of that and let you know what we're learning here. Grady Hospital, they mentioned, is just a few short blocks away from this location at the courthouse. They have a trauma center there, and all the cases that we normally hear with gunshots goes to Grady Hospital.

The Associated Press is reporting that the suspected shooter got away, and the shooter got away in a carjacked car. The extent of injuries not known. The shooting occurred shortly after 9:00 a.m. local time in Atlanta, which would've been about 42 minutes ago. Police now searching for a gray Mercury Sable that witnesses say the shooter carjacked in downtown Atlanta. That's about all we know at this point.

O'BRIEN: Actually, some information coming from the affiliate there. The word there, they are saying is that there is a report that in fact the suspect grabbed a gun, the gun used in the shooting, from a deputy and then shot that deputy with that gun, turned the gun on the judge.

So, the shooting happening inside the courtroom. Details, though, on exactly what case was being heard and the circumstances around that case unclear at the time.

HEMMER: Grady Hospital a short drive away, I mentioned. Two ambulances reported showing up there. At least three people now taken in to be treated for some sort of injury. The extent of the injuries, we do not know, but again this story developing on our watch now in Fulton County, Atlanta, Georgia.

O'BRIEN: And it appears that they are still looking for -- if you believe reports that we're hearing, for the carjacker, who, also the shooter, who apparently has gotten away in a gray Mercury Sable. According to witnesses, that was the car that was carjacked, and then driven off in. So, many questions.

As you can see, the press has descended on the area, and, of course, police as well. Also, at the hospital we heard reports where two ambulances pulled up; three people reported injured, at the very least. That's coming from some witnesses and according to the hospital. However, we do not know the extent of the injuries, or, again, the circumstances of what exactly was happening inside the courtroom. No better description than what we've gotten from some of the television reports locally that say that the shooter seems to have grabbed a gun inside the courtroom from the deputy, shot the deputy with the gun, and then turned the gun on the judge as well. Then he took off in a car.

HEMMER: A little more locally, they're saying that the judge, the deputy, and the court reporter all were shot. Unconfirmed reports that all three have passed away as a result of those gunshot wounds, but again this is stuff we're picking up right now in Atlanta. We have a number of affiliates down there. WAGA working that story, WSB television as well.

None of this we can confirm, but there's also reports, Soledad, that says on the eighth floor of this courthouse building is where the incident took place. And very intriguing what you're saying about this suspect now grabbing the gun that would have been held by a deputy at this point inside the courthouse.

O'BRIEN: We're looking at pictures, live pictures, coming to us from our affiliate there, of a person being brought into the ambulance. So another person. If we are to go with the reports that we heard earlier, three people were transported. This may be then a fourth person; it is unclear exactly. But we heard reports from the hospital that three people were injured and have been transported to the hospital. We're seeing somebody on a stretcher being put into the ambulance, and are obviously going to get some details on the extent of the injuries of all of these people.

They are now looking for this shooter/carjacker who apparently has taken off in a gray Mercury Sable after shooting the deputy -- if you believe reports that we're getting -- the judge, the court reporter, then ran out of the court and hopped into a stolen car and has taken off. And at this hour, they are now searching for the carjacker. We're not getting any description of the shooter at this point, yet.

HEMMER: WSB Television is reporting now the judge has been shot and is indeed dead. We don't have a name of this judge yet, and we would not give that out anyway on behalf of the families that may be watching this report or a similar report in Atlanta, Georgia.

The courthouse has been locked down. You would anticipate a move like that in this story. Several city blocks have been shut down as well in downtown Atlanta. The search continues for the shooter, but again WSB television is reporting that the judge has been shot and has died on the scene there or at Grady Hospital just a few short streets away. The suspected shooter apparently got inside of a carjacked car, this coming from the Associated Press out of Atlanta. The extent of injuries again for the other people is not confirmed at this point.

But the shooting did take place about 9:00 a.m. local time which, on our watch, would have been 45 minutes ago. Police now searching for a gray Mercury Sable that witnesses say the shooter carjacked and then either got away or drove away or may possibly still be in the vicinity, but those are questions that we do not have answers for at this point.

O'BRIEN: Reports we're getting is that the judge, in fact, is dead. The wounded deputy, we are told, has been transported to Grady Memorial Hospital.

And you know, in the wake of all this investigation, after the Judge Lefkow's family shooting, her husband and her mother killed in Chicago, it is a chilling reminder of just how vulnerable these judges are when they're hearing cases. Obviously much more needs to be understood about the circumstances of this shooting. Was it some kind of retaliation for a case, was it some kind of personal issue, was the target the judge or the court reporter who apparently appears to be shot, the deputy appears to be shot and transported to the hospital as well. All we know is that the judge is dead, according to television reports. The wounded deputy, the wounded court reporter have been transported to the hospital.

And as you mentioned, the court has now been shut down, completely sealed off, as they search for this carjacker, who is also obviously the main suspect in the shooting.

HEMMER: WSB Television, we're watching this. Let's go ahead and listen again to what they're reporting in Atlanta.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...a hail of gunfire up on the eighth floor by a suspect. Ambulances continue to come and go from this area. We're not sure really what they're doing here. As this scene has kind of taken on a crime scene mode, while the search for the suspect goes on in other parts of the city. We see a lot of deputies that have arrived here at the courthouse to go inside running to figure out what happened to one of their colleagues, and then one of the judges here. A court reporter also involved in the shooting.

It is unclear how many people inside the courtroom when this happened. I did talk to some people on that were on that floor who said immediately deputies figured out what happened and went inside and sealed off all the courtrooms to prevent anybody else from going out into the hallways in the immediate moments after this shooting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And, Ross, you mentioned about the role that the Fulton County deputies play in the courthouse, and we often see them in the courtroom. They provide security there, and they are also the ones that transport the prisoners into the court or people that may be in the jail coming over for court cases.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's correct, and the one thing that is somewhat unclear to me is which of those deputies are armed and which are not. Often when you see them in the courtroom they are not wearing sidearms. Each sheriff's department has a different set of policies when it comes to security inside the courtrooms. I've been in the Fulton County courthouse on numerous occasions, and really, I can't tell you which deputies would be armed and which would not. I would assume those transporting prisoners to and from the Fulton County jail -- and that happens in large numbers many different times during the day -- I would imagine those folks are armed. It seems to me that those that are in the immediate courtroom often are not armed. That's something that we'll be getting into as the day goes an, exactly which deputy was involved and what role that deputy was playing in the courtroom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right, Ross, thank you very much.

Now we have Channel 2's Tom Wagner in News Chopper 2. Can you tell us what you're seeing from up there?

TOM WAGNER, CHANNEL 2: Well, we just arrived here over the scene here, just adjacent to Underground Atlanta, off Pryor Street, where we understand a judge has been shot. We do have a police air unit in the scene, somewhere between Centennial Park and 17th Street, looking for the perpetrator involved in the shooting.

As you can see from News Chopper 2, numerous police cruisers on the scene. We're not sure where all the people, pedestrians, here on the street, what people they've evacuated from, whether the courthouse or adjacent buildings.

They do have crime scene. As we turn around the street -- turn around the corner here look at Pryor Street here, they do have crime tape out there blocking.

We do understand -- I'm listening to scanner traffic where the perpetrator possibly hijacked, carjacked rather as many as four different cars. The last one he abandoned in a parking lot real close though this location and where he possibly is on foot at this time, where APD units continue to look for him.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: All right, thank you very much for giving us the update from there. As obviously a massive search is now under way for the suspect and a lot of anguish and confusion at the Fulton County Courthouse right now. We just want update you on what we know so far. We have confirmed through sources that a superior court judge at the Fulton County Courthouse, Judge Rowland Barnes, has been shot dead in the courtroom.

They are looking for a man who fled from that scene. Very vague description. A tall black male, bald head, dark colored clothing. He left that area then tried to carjack two different vehicles before police believe he finally got into a third vehicle. They think that they are looking for a gray Mercury Sable, but it also could be a green Honda Accord. Apparently an attempt to get into several different cars before that person finally was successful and did take off. The latest word is a gray Mercury Sable headed towards Spring Street. Big search under way trying to find that person.

Meanwhile at the courthouse, we talked to an eyewitness who works on the first floor who said pretty much everybody is in lockdown right now in the courthouse. Whatever floor they worked on or had business on, they are just staying there as all of the police and the marshals and what not have been searching through that building, trying to secure that building. But we understand that apparently this person was in the courtroom or on the eighth floor for some reason and apparently grabbed a Fulton County sheriff's deputy's gun, shot that deputy, then a judge, and we're getting word, a court reporter.

Now we have gotten confirmation from Grady Memorial Hospital that two deputies were transported there. So we are still trying to sort out exactly how many people were shot and what were the extent of the injuries of the people that were transported.

HEMMER: WSB Television, our eyes and ears on the ground there in Atlanta, Georgia. We have a witness on the phone with us. Vickie Warner.

Vickie, can you hear me?

VICKIE WARNER, EYEWITNESS: Yes.

HEMMER: Listen, where were you when this happened? WARNER: I was in my office in the Fulton County Courthouse building. The secretary and I, we were just having a conversation. And we heard about three or four shots and looked out the window and we saw this guy running across the street with a gun and to the underground parking deck.

HEMMER: Did you see him leave that parking deck?

WARNER: Yes, we saw him leave the parking deck. He left out in I think it was a Jeep. And a guy came out about that time and a police officer and the patrol car came up and the guy that came out the underground parking deck pointed to the guy that was leaving out. So the officer took off behind him. So at the time we didn't know anyone had been shot.

HEMMER: You say a Jeep. Can you describe it more?

WARNER: I believe it was a gray Jeep, a little like a Cherokee. But it was just so much going on, because we just couldn't believe that, you know, all this was taking place first thing this morning.

HEMMER: Did you get a good look at him, this gentleman?

WARNER: No, I just saw him from behind. He had an a blue shirt, black pants. And he was running into the underground parking deck with a gun in his hand.

HEMMER: Where are you now, Vickie?

WARNER: I'm in my office.

HEMMER: So you're still on the fourth floor of the courthouse in Fulton County, right?

WARNER: We're on the sixth floor.

HEMMER: Sixth floor, I apologize. Give us a sense for what you're seeing right now. Is it outside your window or down the hall?

WARNER: It's -- we're looking out the window, police cars, everywhere, ambulances, people, a lot of confusion. People upset, concerned, of course. And it's just really chaotic right now.

HEMMER: We're told the courthouse is locked down. Is that right?

WARNER: Yes.

HEMMER: And again, go back to the shooting. You heard three or four shots, is that right?

WARNER: Yes, three or four shots. And we looked out the window, the secretary and I. And we saw this guy running across the street with a gun in his hand into the underground parking deck.

HEMMER: Yes, Vickie, what time did this happen? It's now 9:54 there in Atlanta.

WARNER: Yes, probably about -- it may have been about 9:20, 9:30, something like that.

HEMMER: OK, so just about 30 minutes ago you're saying?

WARNER: Yes, about 30 minutes.

HEMMER: Vickie, what's your job there at the courthouse?

WARNER: I'm a case manager.

HEMMER: OK. Well, listen, thank you for your time. We really appreciate you joining us, especially under these trying circumstances. Vickie Warner, an eyewitness who says she saw -- or heard three or four shots. On the sixth floor is where she works. But we're told based on reports out of Atlanta that the shooting happened on the eighth floor of this building. She saw a guy running into a parking garage, which would go along the similar lines about what other people have said about this man running into a parking garage, then possible carjacking at least one, maybe two or more cars in that area. And needless to say, there is a search underway now for this man in Atlanta, Georgia.

O'BRIEN: In fact, we're told that police air units have taken to the skies. They're searching, of course, for the perpetrator. Police cruisers on the ground coordinating with those air units, trying to block off some of the streets, see if they can get a sense of where he could heading. Here's the thing.

We've heard now three different descriptions potentially of a vehicle that this suspect might be in. For example, Vickie, your guest, just described it as a gray Cherokee. That's a little bit consistent with the gray from the Mercury Sable, which is what some of the local affiliates and other witnesses were describing that police were looking for. And there's also a description of a green Honda that police might be looking for as well.

So obviously, lots of confusion on the scene as they try to figure out if, in fact, the suspect is in any of these vehicles or at any point was in any of these vehicles or if he's ditched the vehicles altogether and is now on foot. That was a suggestion that was raised from some of the folks in the air as they are continuing to search for the perpetrator in this shooting.

Also, reports, in fact, that two deputies were transported to the hospital. Now, those are not consistent with other reports that only described it as one deputy. That would bring, then, the number to four, potentially, of people shot. The court reporter, two deputies, if that is accurate, coming from the hospital. And the judge. Reports are telling us that the judge has been killed. This is just one of many questions that we're trying to sort through as we continue to get information from the scene.

The eyewitnesses, some who now have been locked into their offices. The courtroom locked down from the outside also consider what's happening on the inside. Inside, they don't want people who are in adjoining courtrooms or nearby courtrooms to come out into the hallway. They have locked them all down as well. So obviously lots going on inside the building.

And we can see some of the action outside as well, where they have surrounded this building, ambulances. A number of ambulances, transporting some of the injured and, of course, trying to figure out where the suspect, who appears to have taken off, has gone or is heading.

HEMMER: So let's try and put this all together for you now. A story developing here in Atlanta, Georgia. Fulton County at the courthouse there. What we know at this point, based on the reports we're getting out of Atlanta is that a Fulton County judge, a superior court judge, has been shot and killed and at least two others have been wound as a result. There was one report that suggested the gunman had literally taken a gun off of a deputy inside the courthouse and used that particular weapon to fire away.

We know of at least two people taken to Grady Memorial. That's about -- oh, just a few blocks away from this courthouse that we're watching here on camera. Police have shut down a number of streets. They've closed down the courthouse. And right now there is a search underway to try and find this man, wherever he is. WGCO right now with a picture out of Atlanta.

O'BRIEN: And we're getting from our affiliate WAGA, as we try to sort through just how many people have actually been shot, that two deputies are treated at the hospital. No confirmation, though, on if both deputies were shot or if the other deputy was just injured in some way, shape or form. Obviously there's lots more that we're trying to sort through as police have surrounded not only the scene, but have taken to the streets as they try to track down the suspect.

Very vague description, some of which we got from your guest, the eyewitness who only saw the perpetrator, she says, from the back, where she saw a black man in a navy top and black pants running the car parking garage and then making his way, with a gun. And obviously she described the scene as very upsetting to many of the people who are now in lockdown as they try to sort through what happened.

HEMMER: Obviously there was some sort of legal proceeding under way. Whether it was just a hearing of sorts or whether there was a trial underway or some have even suggested early on this could have been a copycat based on the reports we've been getting out of Milwaukee this week as it relates to the shooting in Chicago. And again, we walk with a bit of caution right now, because we do not have clear answers on so many of these questions.

What we do understand, though, eighth floor, the Fulton County Courthouse, shots rang out, a judge is dead as a result and at least two others now have been rushed to the local hospital. No update at this point as to their condition. The woman we were talking to, Vickie Warner, a witness on the sixth floor, all she could really tell us was that she heard three or four shots in the floors above her and then looked out and saw this man running to a parking garage, then later leaving with some sort of SUV. Perhaps he tried to carjack more than one vehicle, but at this point we're not sure. A search underway in Atlanta, Georgia, at this hour.

O'BRIEN: And our coverage continues now with Daryn Kagan. She is in Atlanta. She's going to take you through the rest of the morning and also get some more details on this breaking story. Daryn, good morning.

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