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Nancy Grace

Shooting at Atlanta Courthouse Leaves 3 Dead

Aired March 11, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Today, tragedy in an Atlanta courtroom. A collision course between a violent offender facing a jury on charges of rape and sodomy, unshackled, uncuffed, made his way through the courthouse, back to the judge, back to the court reporter and back the jury waiting. Tonight, the facts emerging, moment-by-moment.
Good evening, everybody. Welcome to a special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta with the deadly courthouse shooting. Thank you for being with us tonight.

He came up with me, with all of us, through the ranks and he made it. He made it to superior court, Judge Roland Barnes. His court reporter, Julie Brandau, a sheriff`s deputy, today murdered in cold blood, shot in an Atlanta courtroom this morning by a defendant on trial for rape, aggravated sodomy and kidnapping.

The shooter, 33-year-old Brian Nichols, armed and dangerous, still at large tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The deputies were just running around and saying, "Get out of the courthouse. Get out of the courthouse." And then I came out the front door. And apparently whoever shot the people must have run down somewhere. But there was a deputy on the side of the street right there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was already down?

ROCKWELL: Yes. And the witness says that the guy who had the other deputy`s gun just shot at him a couple of times and he did not look good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, here in Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell -- Renee was at the courthouse when the shootings went down -- Fulton County Deputy District Attorney, Al Dixon, long-time prosecutor, former court reporter and colleague, a friend, of court reporter Julie Brandau`s, Donna Keeble is with us, Judge Diane Bessen, a colleague and family friend of Judge Roland Barnes, defense attorney Darryl Cohen at the courthouse.

But, first, straight to CNN`s Gary Tuchman, live outside the courthouse.

Gary, bring me up to date, friend.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, right now, Brian Nichols has been at large for 11 hours. He could be 500, 600, 700, 800 miles potentially. So officials are now saying this is a national search for him.

However, they are telling us there are several locations they are very interested in. And that`s basically code for they`re keeping an eye on places where his family and friends live, most here in the metropolitan Atlanta area.

We can tell you this, that according to law enforcement authorities, the district attorney here in Fulton County, this man, 33-year-old Brian Nichols, yesterday after his day in court, he was transported back to the jail. And they found in each sock a shank. That`s a crudely made knife they inmates often make. They found it in his socks.

Now, they don`t know if he had those knives in the court during the fourth day of his rape trial. Nevertheless, they informed the court about it. The judge asked for extra security to be placed upon this man today. And now you see what has happened, a very tragic, chaotic, sad day here in the heart of downtown Atlanta where three people shot and killed.

We`re not sure about the fourth. There`s been some conflicting points right now about that deputy inside the courthouse who had the gun taken away from her. We`re hearing now there`s a possibility that she was not shot, that she suffered some battery injuries. She is in critical condition, but right now it`s not clear if she was shot. Nevertheless, the gun was taken away from her, and that`s when all the trouble started -- Nancy?

GRACE: Gary Tuchman is outside the courthouse where I tried all of my violent felony cases here. And here with me tonight, friends and colleagues, not only of mine, but of Judge Barnes and Julie Brandau, the court reporter.

Here beside me, criminal defense attorney Renee Rockwell.

Renee, you were in the courthouse when this happened. What do you recall?

RENEE ROCKWELL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I was on my way to Judge Barnes` courtroom this morning when I was walking through the hall and I saw a number of deputies running out the courtroom. They were running with -- I was teasing them. I said, "What happened? Did somebody escape?"

And when I look down and they had their guns drawn, they were screaming, "Get out of the way, get out of the way." One of them whisked me into the elevator, and there was about nine deputies in the elevator.

A female deputy who was trying to key her mike put her head down on the wall and just started crying. And I said, "What happened?" And she said, "The defendant took the gun away from the deputy and shot the judge." I said, "What judge?" She told me it was Judge Barnes.

And I immediately knew that it was the defendant that was on trial for this horrible sexual offense, who had already taken his girlfriend hostage. That`s what he was on trial for.

At any rate, we were brought out of the front of the courthouse. I ran around to the side, and apparently the defendant somehow ran across to the new side of the building, got in the stairway, ran down the stairway, ran out on to Martin Luther King and that`s when he shot and killed the last deputy.

GRACE: Also with me, Deputy District Attorney, Assistant District Attorney Al Dixon, who has been in the courthouse nearly, nearly how long, Al? Twenty years?

AL DIXON, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Twenty-seven years.

GRACE: In fact, Al is actually set to retire in about a week from service.

Al, I just can`t get it in my head. And I have tried many cases in that courtroom. All of us have. How the defendant managed to get unshackled -- I understand he was going to trial.

So, everybody, when a defendant, a violent felon, comes to the courthouse, they are shackled en route from the jail. When they get to the courthouse, if a jury is about to see them, they are unshackled. You don`t want the jury to see them with handcuffs on.

But how did he get from one building over to the other, up an elevator? I thought he was trying to break free to get away from trial. In fact, he came back to courtroom to get the judge.

DIXON: Well, Nancy, much of that is still under investigation. But it appears that he had been brought up in the -- what`s referred to as the Justice Center Tower where the prisoners come in in the morning.

GRACE: Right.

DIXON: They would be unloaded from a bus, put into a holding cell, and then, when it`s time for them to go to court, would be transported to another holding cell adjacent to the courtroom. Since Judge Barnes` courtroom was in the old part of the courthouse, there actually was not a holding cell in that area.

So he had been brought up to a holding cell on the eighth floor in the new building which is across a bridge. And apparently that`s where he escaped, or was able to get the gun from the deputy, and came from that area of the courthouse back over into the old courthouse, apparently with a bent of mind to do what he did.

GRACE: Everyone, Al Dixon has just left the courthouse. Al was called in from the district attorney`s office to process the crime scene.

And I got to ask you, Al, I mean, you and I have tried cases in that courtroom, what you were thinking when you went back into the crime scene, the bodies still there, to process a crime scene of your colleague, of our friend, Judge Barnes.

DIXON: It was very hard on me because, you know, not only is Judge Barnes a judge, but he`s a friend of mine. We`re neighbors. And it was just extremely tough. But Judge Barnes was shot while he was on the bench. And Julie, the court reporter, was shot while she was taking down -- doing her job as a court reporter. And it was just a tragic scene.

GRACE: In the courtroom today, when people were called to process the crime scene, Barnes was discovered shot on the bench, doing his job as a public servant. Under that black robe, he had on his jeans he wore every Friday.

His court reporter, Julie Brandau, was shot dead at her court reporter station trying to take down the trial. When they came to process the scene, they found where she had made homemade cookies and treats for the jury still laid out. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINLEY JONES, ATTORNEY: Judge Barnes is an outstanding judge. He is not only known for being a fair jurist and running a very organized courtroom, but he is well-loved among the lawyers that practice in front of him and the judges that work with him. He is one of the judges that is very active in the community. He interacts with the local lawyers a lot, not only from the bench, but also supports bar activities and whatnot. And this is a tremendous loss for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s hard for me to even look at that shot of Roland Barnes, Judge Barnes.

Al, I can remember him as home plate swinging a metal softball bat when all the district attorneys would play the public defenders versus the court administrators and whoever else not too far from the courthouse.

DIXON: That`s right.

GRACE: And this was a judge -- you know a lot of judges. I know you`re still practicing, so you can`t speak, but a lot of judges are political appointees. Some of them are political hacks. I don`t know how they get on the bench.

Barnes, no, Barnes came up through the ranks trying cases. He served on the state court bench. He was a magistrate until he finally made his dream come true of being a superior court judge. And when he made judge, let me tell you, if you haven`t already heard it tonight, lawyers said, "Thank God somebody like Barnes has made the bench." Do you remember when he made superior court judge?

DIXON: I do. I do. It was a great day for the county.

GRACE: Let me go to Darryl Cohen standing by at the courthouse.

Darryl, you and I were talking. This is not the first time that tragedy struck in that courthouse in that courtroom.

DARRYL COHEN, COLLEAGUE OF JUDGE BARNES: No, Nancy, it`s not. As a matter of fact, years ago, when I was prosecuting in front of Judge Hole (ph), a man took what they thought was a knife. He threatened people. A deputy sheriff had to subdue him. Two other deputies subdued him.

And then, years later, once again in the very courtroom, a defendant was able to remove a gun from a deputy. They chased him to the men`s room. They subdued him. But a shot was fired, and fortunately at this time no one was injured. So this is the third time that courtroom has been the scene of what could have been a terrible tragedy. Unfortunately, this time, it unfolded.

GRACE: Here on the set with me is my former court reporter, a colleague of Julie Brandau`s for many years, a veteran court reporter, Donna Keeble.

Ms. Keeble, when you are taking down a case, are you aware of what`s going on? I mean, you are -- I remember many days in court, Donna, it would be me, the district attorney, you, the court reporter, the defense lawyer and there would be 50 violent felons waiting to be arraigned.

DONNA KEEBLE, COURT REPORTER: Yes.

GRACE: And maybe one, maybe two, but usually one deputy.

KEEBLE: Right. It`s like a battlefield. It is like a very tense situation, you know? And you do the best you can with it.

GRACE: What do you make of what you`ve heard, that Julie was shot point-blank range at her court reporter spot?

KEEBLE: It`s surreal to me. It is something that I would never envision happening. And it is like I can`t imagine sitting in that chair - - the job is stressful enough. And then, sitting there, and your life coming to an end. That`s...

GRACE: Right there. Getting up on a Friday morning, going to court like we have all done a million times. The judge already had his plans for dinner that night with another lawyer.

Never thinking -- let me go to Judge Diane Bessen. She is the colleague of Judge Roland Barnes, knows him very well and spoke to him at the courthouse prior to the shootings, actually saw the suspect.

Welcome, judge. What happened?

DIANE BESSEN, JUDGE: Well, I actually didn`t speak to Roland today, but I was -- I`d been at a bar breakfast and was coming in. I had a 9:30 calendar and was coming into court at about -- into the building at about 9:10.

And as I passed the corner of Martin Luther King and Central Avenue, I heard, just as everyone describes, pop, pop, pop, pop. And I turned around. And just a few car lengths behind me was what we now know as the defendant -- was racing across the street, brandishing a gun. And I have to say, how more people were not hurt -- there must have been at least a hundred people.

Nancy, you know how that corner is at 9 o`clock on any given work day, how many people are standing outside waiting to, you know, get in the courtroom, parking their car across from the parking deck. And I zoomed around the corner and got into the court building before the security gates closed.

At that point, though, I had no idea that Roland had been shot. I just thought that there was a, you know, a shooting out on the street, so it was awful.

GRACE: You know, another issue is, Renee, police, when they come in to be witnesses, are forced to relinquish their guns when they check in.

This guy clearly had a deputy`s gun, right, Al? He had to have a deputy`s gun?

DIXON: That`s correct.

GRACE: And what I don`t quite get is why more people weren`t shot, because apparently he had a couple of magazines left. He did not shoot his carjack victim.

As a matter of fact, Elizabeth, can you run that statement from the carjack victim?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON O`BRIANT, CARJACKED BY SUSPECT IN MURDERS: And a SUV pulled in right beside me. And a tall black guy gets out with no shirt on and asked for directions to Lennox Square. I tell you he`s in town for the basketball tournament. So I start giving him directions. All of a sudden, he pulls a gun and says, "Give me your keys." And I don`t give them to him. And he says, "Give me your keys or I`ll kill you."

I give him the keys, he opens the trunk and said, "Get in the trunk." And I said, "No." And he said, "I`m going to shoot you if you don`t get in the trunk." And so I start to move away and hits me with the gun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Renee, we, as lawyers, go into a courtroom with nothing but a writing pen and a witness list half the time. Are you surprised more people were not shot?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, you will remember that, several years ago, there were some Atlanta police officers that got in trouble and they enacted a new policy at the courthouse where APD officers have to actually surrender their weapons to the deputies downstairs.

I know that when this perpetrator overtook the deputy and her semi- automatic weapon that he could have at least had access to two more magazines. He could have had access to at least 45 rounds. And it`s incredible that he didn`t take more people out.

I know he probably fired about 12 shots. But it`s incredible that not -- that it was not a greater tragedy.

GRACE: Al, we`re going to break, but when you went to process the crime scene, the judge`s chambers, had the guy, Brian Nichols, actually handcuffed the people in the judge`s chambers? I mean, how did he get out, get through the judge`s chambers, through that back door, up on the bench, that close to the judge?

DIXON: Well, it`s my understanding that he had gone into the judge`s chambers and handcuffed some people that were in the judge`s chambers looking for the judge and then came out on the bench. And to go back to why more people were not killed, there were other lawyers actually arguing a civil motion in the courtroom when this took place this morning.

GRACE: And that`s one of the reasons there was not an armed deputy in the courtroom. It was a civil calendar...

DIXON: It was a civil case.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Al Dixon from the Fulton County District attorney`s office.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Judge Barnes is extremely highly thought of in the legal community. He was a superior court judge here in Atlanta at the superior court of Fulton County. That is, obviously, the main county in the city of Atlanta and the surroundings.

He presided over both criminal and civil matters -- the criminal matters that he would hear would be felony criminal matters -- and then all kinds of civil lawsuits, divorces, all of those matters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JEFFREY SALOMONE, TREATED DEPUTIES SHOT: At about 9:24 this morning, we received one Fulton County sheriff`s deputy who presented to us with a single gunshot wound to the abdomen. He had no vital signs when he arrived here, and despite our resuscitative efforts, we were unsuccessful. He was pronounced dead at about 9:34. About that time, a second Fulton County sheriff`s deputy arrived who appears to have a single gunshot wound to the head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Thank you for being with us on this special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta and the deadly courthouse shooting.

Here on the set with me, Assistant District Attorney Al Dixon, who processed the crime scene following the shooting of Judge Roland Barnes his court reporter Julie, as well as the deputy.

Al, what I don`t understand still is how this guy -- I originally thought he was trying to evade going on trial. He was trying to get out of the courthouse. He didn`t want to go down for rape and sodomy. That`s not the case. He went specifically to the courtroom for vengeance.

DIXON: That`s what we believe. He came to the courtroom looking for Judge Barnes and the people that were involved in the case. And that`s the people that he shot.

GRACE: And Renee, it was a bitter, bitter rape and aggravated sodomy case. What happened in the Brian Nichols case? What were the facts?

ROCKWELL: Initially, the case was on trial last week. My understanding is that the jury hung. They could not decide last week. So they retried the case.

Regarding the facts of the case, it`s my understanding that he allegedly had taken his girlfriend of eight years hostage. He had a couple of days before her birthday, he had planned on spending her birthday with her. He got an ice chest, some luncheon meats, some bread. He went to her house, burglarized, broke into her house, and held her hostage for two days where he raped her, sodomized her and kept her hostage, because he wanted to spend her birthday with him.

The jury hung last week. They were retrying it this week. I saw the defense attorney Wednesday. He indicated that the state was doing an excellent job. Today was probably going to be the last day of trial. And, of course, he was a prisoner at the Fulton County jail, but he was dressed out in civilian clothes and was brought to the courthouse, probably shackled, but at some point, you have to take the handcuffs off, because they`re going to be going before the jury. That`s when he overpowered the deputy, I understand, and came back to the courtroom looking for the judge.

GRACE: So this was a retrial. The mistrial gone down last week on rape, aggravated sodomy and possession of a machine gun-like weapon. Machine gun-like weapon, Al?

DIXON: That`s correct.

GRACE: So as of tonight, Brian Nichols still not in custody.

Very quickly, we are about to go to break.

But Dr. Jeffrey Salomone is with us who tried to revive one of the deputies.

Welcome, Doctor. When you first saw the deputy, did you realize there was nothing you could do for him?

DR. JEFFREY SALOMONE, TRIED TO REVIVE DEPUTY: In our initial assessment, that`s what we determined.

GRACE: And then, I mean, there was nothing you could do at the time the deputy arrived there? He was dead on arrival?

SALOMONE: He had no vital signs from the time EMS first picked him up until he arrived at Grady. We secured an airway, did a few basic life- saving procedures, and there was no response to our efforts to resuscitate him and he was pronounced dead.

GRACE: He took a shot in the abdomen, it was a shot in the abdomen?

SALOMONE: That is correct. Right.

GRACE: So I assume that then the bullet went through his vital organs and he bled to death?

SALOMONE: That`s conjecture. It`ll have to be up to the medical examiner to determine the exact cause of death. He probably bled to death from an injury to a major blood vessel.

GRACE: Got to go to a quick break. Stay with us. We`re live in Atlanta.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Renay San Miguel. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Boston Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling is the only major league player so far to say he`ll testify before Congress next week about steroid use in the major leagues. But Schilling says he`s, quote, "real confused about why he was subpoenaed." Six other current or former players were also called to testify. The baseball commissioner`s office says it`ll fight the subpoenas.

The New York Times reports the Pentagon wants to cut the number of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, by more than half. The U.S. reportedly intends to transfer hundreds of detainees to prisons in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Yemen.

Actor Paul Newman once described his two greatest passions as acting and racing cars. Now he says he plans to give up both in the near future. But movie fans, don`t despair. Newman says he`ll do one more film for good luck before he retires.

That`s the news for now. I`m Renay San Miguel.

Now back to NANCY GRACE and our top story, the courthouse shootings in Atlanta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES BAILEY, JUROR ON CASE: About 6`2", very athletic, an African- American gentleman, very short hair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was his name?

BAILEY: Brian Nichols. Every time any of us looked up, we saw him looking at our reactions. It made us a little nervous. We always kind of looked the other way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Atlanta in the deadly courthouse shooting. Thank you for being with us.

The day a judge can be shot dead on the bench doing his duty is a sad day for all of us. Not just the judge, Judge Roland Barnes, but his court reporter sitting down beneath him in front of the judge`s bench, that was Julie that you just saw. Julie just visiting with me a few months ago in New York, seeing the Empire State building, the Rockefeller Center.

Donna, what can you tell me about Julie?

KEEBLE: I`ve known Julie since the early `80s. We worked together at Braham Reporting (ph), freelancing. We worked together at Fulton County for 11-plus years.

I can tell you that she is a top-notch reporter. A comrade has fallen in my eyes, an irreplaceable person, a great mom who loved her daughter very, very much. And she is missed so much by her community. She was just a number one. And I know that she loved Judge Barnes. She loved working for him and doing anything, you know. She`s just a great person.

GRACE: I was thinking about her daughter, Donna. I mean, seeing a mom going off to work that morning as a court reporter, you know, you would think that`s a pretty safe job.

KEEBLE: Well, her daughter is in college at this time.

GRACE: Yes.

KEEBLE: But actually I`m in pretty much the same position. My daughter`s 16, and I`m a single parent. And she was divorced, much as my situation. And it is a very terrifying thing when this happens because you go into work and you don`t really keep that, you know, that this could be a dangerous thing, you know?

GRACE: I guess when I think of her daughter, I still think of her as a little girl.

KEEBLE: Yes.

GRACE: You know, to Darryl Cohen standing by at the courthouse, Darryl, I`m thinking about the judge. I`m thinking about Julie. And I know that this guy was caught last week with a shank, which is a homemade knife that`s made in the jail -- had brought a shank apparently to the courthouse. And it`s just beyond me how, knowing this -- and of course, we`re all on the outside looking in, we`re second guessing -- why the guy was not shackled -- Darryl?

COHEN: Nancy, as I understand it, he was found with two shanks and it wasn`t last week but it was either Wednesday night or Thursday morning of this week. And it`s beyond my comprehension why he wouldn`t have been shackled, why they would have had one deputy sheriff take him to the courthouse from the court from the holding cell to the courtroom, why that deputy sheriff would have had a weapon when he obviously could have done what he did.

You and I have talked about this for years, prosecutors, defense lawyers, witnesses, we all walk into courtroom basically with nothing other than our clothing and pen.

GRACE: Yep.

COHEN: And we have talked about that what if so many times, because we have seen how lax the security can sometimes be. And it`s not the people. It`s the procedures. And it`s the training. And it happened. And I hope that this becomes a teachable moment where this never happens again and they re-evaluate these procedures and make sure that, if there`s a weapon, that it`s not held by the person who was actually escorting a perpetrator or a prisoner. That`s just inexcusable.

GRACE: Well, you know, I hear what you`re saying but, Al, with the deputies don`t have guns, if they don`t have weapons, then what are you going to do when one of these inmates takes somebody hostage with a shank from the jail or with something they`ve gotten there in the courthouse?

I mean, Al, is there an answer? Are we just looking for answers when there aren`t any? No matter what you do, Al, you`re still working with violent felons. I mean, that`s the bottom line. We lawyers are in the courtroom with a stack of papers, and a writing pen, and 50 violent felons. Now, what do you think?

DIXON: The deputies are trained how to handle inmates. But these things happen sometimes. I mean, this is -- and all this is under investigation and...

GRACE: But Roland didn`t even have the buzz-in security. Explain.

DIXON: Well, he did. And apparently that was off. I mean, it was equipped with that. There is a monitor there that they can see what`s going in and out of the courtroom.

GRACE: I thought that Judge Barnes said, "Open," that his security -- you didn`t have to buzz into his chambers.

DIXON: He didn`t want people to have to buzz in. He liked being over in the old courthouse because of that. Over in the new courthouse, of course, you have to come through the secure area before you can get back to where the judge`s chambers are.

BESSEN: Two security areas.

DIXON: And so there`s a lot of unanswered questions that I`m sure will be answered and there will be some changes that take place at the Fulton County courthouse.

GRACE: Judge Bessen, do you pass through a metal detector when you go into the courthouse?

BESSEN: No, we don`t. The judges are fortunate. We enter through a secure parking deck that`s under the building. Now, every place that we do travel, though, where the judges are kept, we have to -- we can only pass with card keys.

And I have to say, I mean, in -- I was a part-time magistrate back when Roland was a magistrate and worked with him at that time. And, so I`ve been around the courthouse for about eight years or so. And through all that time, I just can tell you I have never felt insecure.

And all the judges, and I mean, you consider the judges and the staff that are down there every day, the deputies. It is clearly going to be a new day in Fulton County. There will be some concern about that. And it`s really -- it`s sad to think that I will, in the back of my mind, always be wondering and questioning when in the past I always did feel very safe at the courthouse.

GRACE: Yes. You know, Judge, I`ll throw this to you, Renee, we always felt the same way. You know, it just never -- maybe we didn`t want to think about what could happen. But, I mean, you and I, and individually, have been back in pre-trials with 15 felons talking to them and their lawyers and maybe one sheriff at the door.

ROCKWELL: At the door one sheriff, one gun, 50 prisoners, prisoners sometimes that don`t have anything else to lose. But this guy was different because he had already escaped. He had gotten the gun, he had gotten away from the deputy, and he went back into the courtroom looking for Judge Barnes. And that`s the problem.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... different building. Made it all the way...

ROCKWELL: Different building, yes.

GRACE: And I went to the courthouse today to check out his route. This guy clearly -- I don`t know if police are going to release this -- came down eight flights of stairs. There`s a glass stairway. You can see somebody coming down the stairs from outside. You can look in from outside. And made it out of the building, he`s gone. Nobody knows where Brian Nichols is.

Elizabeth, could you role that bite from the sheriff, please?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MYRON FREEMAN, FULTON COUNTY SHERIFF: Mr. Nichols is considered armed and extremely dangerous and should not be approached. How Mr. Nichols allegedly came into possession of the weapon and the circumstances surrounding the shooting are still under investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tell me about Thanksgiving dinner.

ROCKWELL: The reason Judge Barnes was in his old courtroom is because he loved and traditionally he had a Thanksgiving dinner.

And, Nancy, you know the difference between the old courtroom and the new courthouse. The old courtrooms have big, grand courtrooms. The office was big. They had a kitchen. And every year on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, Judge Barnes had over 300 people traipsing through his courtroom. He cooked turkeys, he`d have dressing, he`d have cranberries, and Julie would cook too. And they just entertained anybody that came to the courthouse.

COHEN: And, Nancy, it was like that most every day in Judge Barnes` chambers.

GRACE: Tell me.

COHEN: I mean, it`s like one big family in the judge`s chambers. And they would always have coffee, and bagels, and doughnuts for the lawyers that came into the courthouse.

GRACE: I was reading a quote by Judge Barnes, Roland Barnes, about his calendar clerk, my friend, Julie Brandau. He says, "She is our court reporter, and every day of trial she creates something special for our jurors. They`ve had everything from peach bread to oatmeal cookies." And when you went in today, she had it spread out for the jurors.

COHEN: It was in the jury room on a tray waiting on the jury.

GRACE: Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WANDA TAMPLIN, EYEWITNESS: ... heard a shot, and I see this guy run by. At that point, I`m kind of panicked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COURTHOUSE EMPLOYEE, FULTON COUNTY COURT: Very sad to hear this. You know, these people, I`m sure, have family. And that makes me sad to know that they have probably children and grandchildren.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Thank you for being with us tonight on a special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta and the deadly courthouse shooting. Three colleagues down in a court of law. Again, thank you for being with us.

Gary Tuchman, what can you tell me about the status of Brian Nichols tonight, any word?

TUCHMAN: Nancy, not any word at all. We have asked district attorneys. We have asked police. We have asked sheriff`s deputies. We`ve asked some of the feds on the scene. "What do you know?" If they know something, they`re not telling us.

All they`re saying is there`s a national search going on right now. They do have locations of interest they`re looking at which would namely be the homes, the residences of his family and friends.

One thing you mentioned before, Nancy, that`s really important and it`s very chilling, the fact is that Brian Nichols jeopardized his escape plans by doing what he did. He took that gun from the deputy and he could have just gone down that glass staircase that you were talking about.

But, instead, he decided to take the time to go across a pedestrian bridge into the old courthouse which is next door to go inside that courtroom where his rape case was going on and fire those shots that killed two people inside that courtroom. So he actually jeopardized his escape to get what had appeared was revenge. Then he did escape. But the fact was, he delayed a lot of time because he wanted to go into that courtroom.

GRACE: You know, Al, the assistant district attorney -- actually, Elizabeth, we have a bite from Gail, correct? Could you roll that, please?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GAIL ABRAMSON, FULTON COUNTY ASST. D.A.: I do think that, in his mind, he knew he was going to be convicted this time. And so I think that he was just seeking revenge to the criminal justice system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Al, I guess she`s under protective custody, I would hope, tonight. Because this guy jeopardized his own escape on a rape charge to come back to the courtroom to kill the judge and the court reporter. If that woman, Gail Abramson, had been in that courtroom, she would be dead right now. What`s to say he`s not after her tonight?

DIXON: Well, I think that`s correct. I mean, I think he came over to the courtroom to kill the people that had been prosecuting him and the people that were involved in his trial. And I`m sure she is safe.

GRACE: You know, it`s still amazing to me that this guy was caught with two shanks in his shoe a couple of days ago, Darryl Cohen, as you were pointing out, and still was unshackled with a single sheriff.

This is a clear security risk. This is a guy who just beat a rape charge and an ag-sodomy charge, had a machine gun-type weapon with him at the time he kidnapped a girl. And he is unshackled with one female sheriff, Darryl.

COHEN: I cannot even now fathom it. It`s something that as an ex- prosecutor, ex-D.A., ex-assistant state attorney, it`s something that I just cannot understand.

And you and I have talked about it, Nancy. The security in the Fulton County courthouse has not had the type of procedures that is we felt were necessary to protect everybody. And, certainly, things can happen.

If he was across the street and he decided -- he was on bond and wanted to take a shot, you can understand that. You may not be able to protect that. But inside the courthouse...

GRACE: In the courtroom. In the courtroom.

COHEN: In the courtroom.

GRACE: And I wish the viewers could see that courtroom, Darryl. I have tried cases in there, huge courtroom. It looks like it`s out of "To Kill a Mockingbird," gigantic courtroom. I can see Judge Barnes having his Thanksgiving meal in there, the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, for everybody as clear as a bell.

I want to talk for a moment about the court reporter, Julie.

Renee, she took down many of our trials, many of our plea calendars. She was what they call a floater for a while. She`d go from courtroom to courtroom. You have got a story?

ROCKWELL: Just she, of course, was famous for making the snacks and everything. But Nancy, she was a big fan of yours. And last time I saw her, we were in a hearing. And she was taking the case down, and she looked at me, and she kind of waved to me, and she said, "Tell Nancy I said, `Hi.`" Because I know she had come to visit you not too, too long ago when she was in New York.

And it`s tragic. And you`d think that -- I think what happens is we`re in court, we`re around the bad guys all the time. I`m a defense attorney. But sometimes it might get just too lax, and we just get used to it, and you just can`t forget that these people, some of them with nothing to lose, they`re within inches away from these deputies` guns. And apparently this guy just took the opportunity to...

GRACE: Do you think that, Donna Keeble, as a court reporter, that -- remember all those days we`d be in court together, we`d be trying rape cases, about spree-killers, double murderers. You name it.

KEEBLE: On a daily, weekly basis.

GRACE: Never thought about that.

KEEBLE: You know, you`re dealing with desperate people who will take desperate measures. And if you don`t look at it, if you get too lax, anything can be overlooked. I mean, it`s just a daily thing, you know?

GRACE: And, Al, at this juncture, when Brian Nichols went into the courtroom, there was not a deputy in there.

DIXON: Judge Barnes was doing a civil motions hearing. And so there would not be a deputy. There could be a deputy inside the courtroom. He has a deputy that`s assigned to his courtroom. But for a civil hearing, many times, there`s not a deputy.

GRACE: Darryl, you have tried cases in that courtroom, too. It`s not unlike practically every other courtroom in the courthouse. What`s your answer, if you`ve got one?

COHEN: Well, I don`t know that I have the answer, but I can tell you this: Knowing that he was a danger, knowing what he was charged with, knowing that he was being brought over, there should have been deputies ready to take over from the sergeant that was taking him to the courtroom.

The fact that Judge Barnes was trying a civil matter at the time was almost irrelevant, because as soon as that civil matter was to be concluded, the trial was to start back up. I just cannot believe the lack of proper procedure.

GRACE: You know, Al, I have only got about 30 seconds before we go to break, but this is the kind of judge Barnes was. He had a criminal case going down, a jury waiting in the wings, and he was trying to do a civil calendar before court started at 9 o`clock.

DIXON: That`s right. I mean, he was on the bench doing what he was elected to do.

GRACE: Al, did he go with his boots on?

DIXON: He had his boots and his jeans on, and his robe.

GRACE: We`re live in Atlanta and a special edition of NANCY GRACE. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEP. CHIEF ALAN DREHER, ATLANTA POLICE: He overwhelmed a deputy sheriff on his way to court. It appears that he took possession of her handgun. The deputy sheriff was injured as a result of that struggle. The suspect made his way into the courtroom and held all the persons inside at bay with a handgun. He then shot and killed the judge, shot and killed the court stenographer, and made his escape from the court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back to a special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta and the deadly courthouse shooting.

With me, Deputy Assistant District Attorney Al Dixon.

Al, everyday prosecutors, and public defenders, and judges, and court reporters show up unarmed with nothing but this and this.

DIXON: That`s right, Nancy. And when you are in the courtroom, I mean, you are thinking about the case you`re trying. You are thinking about, you know, what`s happening in the courtroom. You just really never give it a thought about something like this happening in the courtroom. And you depend on those deputies to protect you. And they do a good job.

GRACE: Renee, final thought?

ROCKWELL: I`m thinking about Gail right now. Because obviously this animal who escaped this deputy went back into the courtroom looking for the people involved with the case. I`m thinking about Gail and I know she is safe, but I`ll feel much better once he`s apprehended.

GRACE: Tonight, Brian Nichols still on the loose. As we say good night, I want to thank all of my wonderful guests, my friends, defense attorney Renee Rockwell, prosecutor Al Dixon, court reporter Donna Keeble, Judge Diane Bessen, Darryl Cohen, defense attorney, Dr. Salomone, CNN`s Gary Tuchman.

My biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight on this dark, dark night. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Good night, friend.

END


Aired March 11, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Today, tragedy in an Atlanta courtroom. A collision course between a violent offender facing a jury on charges of rape and sodomy, unshackled, uncuffed, made his way through the courthouse, back to the judge, back to the court reporter and back the jury waiting. Tonight, the facts emerging, moment-by-moment.
Good evening, everybody. Welcome to a special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta with the deadly courthouse shooting. Thank you for being with us tonight.

He came up with me, with all of us, through the ranks and he made it. He made it to superior court, Judge Roland Barnes. His court reporter, Julie Brandau, a sheriff`s deputy, today murdered in cold blood, shot in an Atlanta courtroom this morning by a defendant on trial for rape, aggravated sodomy and kidnapping.

The shooter, 33-year-old Brian Nichols, armed and dangerous, still at large tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The deputies were just running around and saying, "Get out of the courthouse. Get out of the courthouse." And then I came out the front door. And apparently whoever shot the people must have run down somewhere. But there was a deputy on the side of the street right there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was already down?

ROCKWELL: Yes. And the witness says that the guy who had the other deputy`s gun just shot at him a couple of times and he did not look good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, here in Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell -- Renee was at the courthouse when the shootings went down -- Fulton County Deputy District Attorney, Al Dixon, long-time prosecutor, former court reporter and colleague, a friend, of court reporter Julie Brandau`s, Donna Keeble is with us, Judge Diane Bessen, a colleague and family friend of Judge Roland Barnes, defense attorney Darryl Cohen at the courthouse.

But, first, straight to CNN`s Gary Tuchman, live outside the courthouse.

Gary, bring me up to date, friend.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, right now, Brian Nichols has been at large for 11 hours. He could be 500, 600, 700, 800 miles potentially. So officials are now saying this is a national search for him.

However, they are telling us there are several locations they are very interested in. And that`s basically code for they`re keeping an eye on places where his family and friends live, most here in the metropolitan Atlanta area.

We can tell you this, that according to law enforcement authorities, the district attorney here in Fulton County, this man, 33-year-old Brian Nichols, yesterday after his day in court, he was transported back to the jail. And they found in each sock a shank. That`s a crudely made knife they inmates often make. They found it in his socks.

Now, they don`t know if he had those knives in the court during the fourth day of his rape trial. Nevertheless, they informed the court about it. The judge asked for extra security to be placed upon this man today. And now you see what has happened, a very tragic, chaotic, sad day here in the heart of downtown Atlanta where three people shot and killed.

We`re not sure about the fourth. There`s been some conflicting points right now about that deputy inside the courthouse who had the gun taken away from her. We`re hearing now there`s a possibility that she was not shot, that she suffered some battery injuries. She is in critical condition, but right now it`s not clear if she was shot. Nevertheless, the gun was taken away from her, and that`s when all the trouble started -- Nancy?

GRACE: Gary Tuchman is outside the courthouse where I tried all of my violent felony cases here. And here with me tonight, friends and colleagues, not only of mine, but of Judge Barnes and Julie Brandau, the court reporter.

Here beside me, criminal defense attorney Renee Rockwell.

Renee, you were in the courthouse when this happened. What do you recall?

RENEE ROCKWELL, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I was on my way to Judge Barnes` courtroom this morning when I was walking through the hall and I saw a number of deputies running out the courtroom. They were running with -- I was teasing them. I said, "What happened? Did somebody escape?"

And when I look down and they had their guns drawn, they were screaming, "Get out of the way, get out of the way." One of them whisked me into the elevator, and there was about nine deputies in the elevator.

A female deputy who was trying to key her mike put her head down on the wall and just started crying. And I said, "What happened?" And she said, "The defendant took the gun away from the deputy and shot the judge." I said, "What judge?" She told me it was Judge Barnes.

And I immediately knew that it was the defendant that was on trial for this horrible sexual offense, who had already taken his girlfriend hostage. That`s what he was on trial for.

At any rate, we were brought out of the front of the courthouse. I ran around to the side, and apparently the defendant somehow ran across to the new side of the building, got in the stairway, ran down the stairway, ran out on to Martin Luther King and that`s when he shot and killed the last deputy.

GRACE: Also with me, Deputy District Attorney, Assistant District Attorney Al Dixon, who has been in the courthouse nearly, nearly how long, Al? Twenty years?

AL DIXON, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Twenty-seven years.

GRACE: In fact, Al is actually set to retire in about a week from service.

Al, I just can`t get it in my head. And I have tried many cases in that courtroom. All of us have. How the defendant managed to get unshackled -- I understand he was going to trial.

So, everybody, when a defendant, a violent felon, comes to the courthouse, they are shackled en route from the jail. When they get to the courthouse, if a jury is about to see them, they are unshackled. You don`t want the jury to see them with handcuffs on.

But how did he get from one building over to the other, up an elevator? I thought he was trying to break free to get away from trial. In fact, he came back to courtroom to get the judge.

DIXON: Well, Nancy, much of that is still under investigation. But it appears that he had been brought up in the -- what`s referred to as the Justice Center Tower where the prisoners come in in the morning.

GRACE: Right.

DIXON: They would be unloaded from a bus, put into a holding cell, and then, when it`s time for them to go to court, would be transported to another holding cell adjacent to the courtroom. Since Judge Barnes` courtroom was in the old part of the courthouse, there actually was not a holding cell in that area.

So he had been brought up to a holding cell on the eighth floor in the new building which is across a bridge. And apparently that`s where he escaped, or was able to get the gun from the deputy, and came from that area of the courthouse back over into the old courthouse, apparently with a bent of mind to do what he did.

GRACE: Everyone, Al Dixon has just left the courthouse. Al was called in from the district attorney`s office to process the crime scene.

And I got to ask you, Al, I mean, you and I have tried cases in that courtroom, what you were thinking when you went back into the crime scene, the bodies still there, to process a crime scene of your colleague, of our friend, Judge Barnes.

DIXON: It was very hard on me because, you know, not only is Judge Barnes a judge, but he`s a friend of mine. We`re neighbors. And it was just extremely tough. But Judge Barnes was shot while he was on the bench. And Julie, the court reporter, was shot while she was taking down -- doing her job as a court reporter. And it was just a tragic scene.

GRACE: In the courtroom today, when people were called to process the crime scene, Barnes was discovered shot on the bench, doing his job as a public servant. Under that black robe, he had on his jeans he wore every Friday.

His court reporter, Julie Brandau, was shot dead at her court reporter station trying to take down the trial. When they came to process the scene, they found where she had made homemade cookies and treats for the jury still laid out. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINLEY JONES, ATTORNEY: Judge Barnes is an outstanding judge. He is not only known for being a fair jurist and running a very organized courtroom, but he is well-loved among the lawyers that practice in front of him and the judges that work with him. He is one of the judges that is very active in the community. He interacts with the local lawyers a lot, not only from the bench, but also supports bar activities and whatnot. And this is a tremendous loss for us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It`s hard for me to even look at that shot of Roland Barnes, Judge Barnes.

Al, I can remember him as home plate swinging a metal softball bat when all the district attorneys would play the public defenders versus the court administrators and whoever else not too far from the courthouse.

DIXON: That`s right.

GRACE: And this was a judge -- you know a lot of judges. I know you`re still practicing, so you can`t speak, but a lot of judges are political appointees. Some of them are political hacks. I don`t know how they get on the bench.

Barnes, no, Barnes came up through the ranks trying cases. He served on the state court bench. He was a magistrate until he finally made his dream come true of being a superior court judge. And when he made judge, let me tell you, if you haven`t already heard it tonight, lawyers said, "Thank God somebody like Barnes has made the bench." Do you remember when he made superior court judge?

DIXON: I do. I do. It was a great day for the county.

GRACE: Let me go to Darryl Cohen standing by at the courthouse.

Darryl, you and I were talking. This is not the first time that tragedy struck in that courthouse in that courtroom.

DARRYL COHEN, COLLEAGUE OF JUDGE BARNES: No, Nancy, it`s not. As a matter of fact, years ago, when I was prosecuting in front of Judge Hole (ph), a man took what they thought was a knife. He threatened people. A deputy sheriff had to subdue him. Two other deputies subdued him.

And then, years later, once again in the very courtroom, a defendant was able to remove a gun from a deputy. They chased him to the men`s room. They subdued him. But a shot was fired, and fortunately at this time no one was injured. So this is the third time that courtroom has been the scene of what could have been a terrible tragedy. Unfortunately, this time, it unfolded.

GRACE: Here on the set with me is my former court reporter, a colleague of Julie Brandau`s for many years, a veteran court reporter, Donna Keeble.

Ms. Keeble, when you are taking down a case, are you aware of what`s going on? I mean, you are -- I remember many days in court, Donna, it would be me, the district attorney, you, the court reporter, the defense lawyer and there would be 50 violent felons waiting to be arraigned.

DONNA KEEBLE, COURT REPORTER: Yes.

GRACE: And maybe one, maybe two, but usually one deputy.

KEEBLE: Right. It`s like a battlefield. It is like a very tense situation, you know? And you do the best you can with it.

GRACE: What do you make of what you`ve heard, that Julie was shot point-blank range at her court reporter spot?

KEEBLE: It`s surreal to me. It is something that I would never envision happening. And it is like I can`t imagine sitting in that chair - - the job is stressful enough. And then, sitting there, and your life coming to an end. That`s...

GRACE: Right there. Getting up on a Friday morning, going to court like we have all done a million times. The judge already had his plans for dinner that night with another lawyer.

Never thinking -- let me go to Judge Diane Bessen. She is the colleague of Judge Roland Barnes, knows him very well and spoke to him at the courthouse prior to the shootings, actually saw the suspect.

Welcome, judge. What happened?

DIANE BESSEN, JUDGE: Well, I actually didn`t speak to Roland today, but I was -- I`d been at a bar breakfast and was coming in. I had a 9:30 calendar and was coming into court at about -- into the building at about 9:10.

And as I passed the corner of Martin Luther King and Central Avenue, I heard, just as everyone describes, pop, pop, pop, pop. And I turned around. And just a few car lengths behind me was what we now know as the defendant -- was racing across the street, brandishing a gun. And I have to say, how more people were not hurt -- there must have been at least a hundred people.

Nancy, you know how that corner is at 9 o`clock on any given work day, how many people are standing outside waiting to, you know, get in the courtroom, parking their car across from the parking deck. And I zoomed around the corner and got into the court building before the security gates closed.

At that point, though, I had no idea that Roland had been shot. I just thought that there was a, you know, a shooting out on the street, so it was awful.

GRACE: You know, another issue is, Renee, police, when they come in to be witnesses, are forced to relinquish their guns when they check in.

This guy clearly had a deputy`s gun, right, Al? He had to have a deputy`s gun?

DIXON: That`s correct.

GRACE: And what I don`t quite get is why more people weren`t shot, because apparently he had a couple of magazines left. He did not shoot his carjack victim.

As a matter of fact, Elizabeth, can you run that statement from the carjack victim?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DON O`BRIANT, CARJACKED BY SUSPECT IN MURDERS: And a SUV pulled in right beside me. And a tall black guy gets out with no shirt on and asked for directions to Lennox Square. I tell you he`s in town for the basketball tournament. So I start giving him directions. All of a sudden, he pulls a gun and says, "Give me your keys." And I don`t give them to him. And he says, "Give me your keys or I`ll kill you."

I give him the keys, he opens the trunk and said, "Get in the trunk." And I said, "No." And he said, "I`m going to shoot you if you don`t get in the trunk." And so I start to move away and hits me with the gun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Renee, we, as lawyers, go into a courtroom with nothing but a writing pen and a witness list half the time. Are you surprised more people were not shot?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, you will remember that, several years ago, there were some Atlanta police officers that got in trouble and they enacted a new policy at the courthouse where APD officers have to actually surrender their weapons to the deputies downstairs.

I know that when this perpetrator overtook the deputy and her semi- automatic weapon that he could have at least had access to two more magazines. He could have had access to at least 45 rounds. And it`s incredible that he didn`t take more people out.

I know he probably fired about 12 shots. But it`s incredible that not -- that it was not a greater tragedy.

GRACE: Al, we`re going to break, but when you went to process the crime scene, the judge`s chambers, had the guy, Brian Nichols, actually handcuffed the people in the judge`s chambers? I mean, how did he get out, get through the judge`s chambers, through that back door, up on the bench, that close to the judge?

DIXON: Well, it`s my understanding that he had gone into the judge`s chambers and handcuffed some people that were in the judge`s chambers looking for the judge and then came out on the bench. And to go back to why more people were not killed, there were other lawyers actually arguing a civil motion in the courtroom when this took place this morning.

GRACE: And that`s one of the reasons there was not an armed deputy in the courtroom. It was a civil calendar...

DIXON: It was a civil case.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Al Dixon from the Fulton County District attorney`s office.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Judge Barnes is extremely highly thought of in the legal community. He was a superior court judge here in Atlanta at the superior court of Fulton County. That is, obviously, the main county in the city of Atlanta and the surroundings.

He presided over both criminal and civil matters -- the criminal matters that he would hear would be felony criminal matters -- and then all kinds of civil lawsuits, divorces, all of those matters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. JEFFREY SALOMONE, TREATED DEPUTIES SHOT: At about 9:24 this morning, we received one Fulton County sheriff`s deputy who presented to us with a single gunshot wound to the abdomen. He had no vital signs when he arrived here, and despite our resuscitative efforts, we were unsuccessful. He was pronounced dead at about 9:34. About that time, a second Fulton County sheriff`s deputy arrived who appears to have a single gunshot wound to the head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Thank you for being with us on this special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta and the deadly courthouse shooting.

Here on the set with me, Assistant District Attorney Al Dixon, who processed the crime scene following the shooting of Judge Roland Barnes his court reporter Julie, as well as the deputy.

Al, what I don`t understand still is how this guy -- I originally thought he was trying to evade going on trial. He was trying to get out of the courthouse. He didn`t want to go down for rape and sodomy. That`s not the case. He went specifically to the courtroom for vengeance.

DIXON: That`s what we believe. He came to the courtroom looking for Judge Barnes and the people that were involved in the case. And that`s the people that he shot.

GRACE: And Renee, it was a bitter, bitter rape and aggravated sodomy case. What happened in the Brian Nichols case? What were the facts?

ROCKWELL: Initially, the case was on trial last week. My understanding is that the jury hung. They could not decide last week. So they retried the case.

Regarding the facts of the case, it`s my understanding that he allegedly had taken his girlfriend of eight years hostage. He had a couple of days before her birthday, he had planned on spending her birthday with her. He got an ice chest, some luncheon meats, some bread. He went to her house, burglarized, broke into her house, and held her hostage for two days where he raped her, sodomized her and kept her hostage, because he wanted to spend her birthday with him.

The jury hung last week. They were retrying it this week. I saw the defense attorney Wednesday. He indicated that the state was doing an excellent job. Today was probably going to be the last day of trial. And, of course, he was a prisoner at the Fulton County jail, but he was dressed out in civilian clothes and was brought to the courthouse, probably shackled, but at some point, you have to take the handcuffs off, because they`re going to be going before the jury. That`s when he overpowered the deputy, I understand, and came back to the courtroom looking for the judge.

GRACE: So this was a retrial. The mistrial gone down last week on rape, aggravated sodomy and possession of a machine gun-like weapon. Machine gun-like weapon, Al?

DIXON: That`s correct.

GRACE: So as of tonight, Brian Nichols still not in custody.

Very quickly, we are about to go to break.

But Dr. Jeffrey Salomone is with us who tried to revive one of the deputies.

Welcome, Doctor. When you first saw the deputy, did you realize there was nothing you could do for him?

DR. JEFFREY SALOMONE, TRIED TO REVIVE DEPUTY: In our initial assessment, that`s what we determined.

GRACE: And then, I mean, there was nothing you could do at the time the deputy arrived there? He was dead on arrival?

SALOMONE: He had no vital signs from the time EMS first picked him up until he arrived at Grady. We secured an airway, did a few basic life- saving procedures, and there was no response to our efforts to resuscitate him and he was pronounced dead.

GRACE: He took a shot in the abdomen, it was a shot in the abdomen?

SALOMONE: That is correct. Right.

GRACE: So I assume that then the bullet went through his vital organs and he bled to death?

SALOMONE: That`s conjecture. It`ll have to be up to the medical examiner to determine the exact cause of death. He probably bled to death from an injury to a major blood vessel.

GRACE: Got to go to a quick break. Stay with us. We`re live in Atlanta.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Renay San Miguel. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Boston Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling is the only major league player so far to say he`ll testify before Congress next week about steroid use in the major leagues. But Schilling says he`s, quote, "real confused about why he was subpoenaed." Six other current or former players were also called to testify. The baseball commissioner`s office says it`ll fight the subpoenas.

The New York Times reports the Pentagon wants to cut the number of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, by more than half. The U.S. reportedly intends to transfer hundreds of detainees to prisons in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Yemen.

Actor Paul Newman once described his two greatest passions as acting and racing cars. Now he says he plans to give up both in the near future. But movie fans, don`t despair. Newman says he`ll do one more film for good luck before he retires.

That`s the news for now. I`m Renay San Miguel.

Now back to NANCY GRACE and our top story, the courthouse shootings in Atlanta.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES BAILEY, JUROR ON CASE: About 6`2", very athletic, an African- American gentleman, very short hair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was his name?

BAILEY: Brian Nichols. Every time any of us looked up, we saw him looking at our reactions. It made us a little nervous. We always kind of looked the other way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Atlanta in the deadly courthouse shooting. Thank you for being with us.

The day a judge can be shot dead on the bench doing his duty is a sad day for all of us. Not just the judge, Judge Roland Barnes, but his court reporter sitting down beneath him in front of the judge`s bench, that was Julie that you just saw. Julie just visiting with me a few months ago in New York, seeing the Empire State building, the Rockefeller Center.

Donna, what can you tell me about Julie?

KEEBLE: I`ve known Julie since the early `80s. We worked together at Braham Reporting (ph), freelancing. We worked together at Fulton County for 11-plus years.

I can tell you that she is a top-notch reporter. A comrade has fallen in my eyes, an irreplaceable person, a great mom who loved her daughter very, very much. And she is missed so much by her community. She was just a number one. And I know that she loved Judge Barnes. She loved working for him and doing anything, you know. She`s just a great person.

GRACE: I was thinking about her daughter, Donna. I mean, seeing a mom going off to work that morning as a court reporter, you know, you would think that`s a pretty safe job.

KEEBLE: Well, her daughter is in college at this time.

GRACE: Yes.

KEEBLE: But actually I`m in pretty much the same position. My daughter`s 16, and I`m a single parent. And she was divorced, much as my situation. And it is a very terrifying thing when this happens because you go into work and you don`t really keep that, you know, that this could be a dangerous thing, you know?

GRACE: I guess when I think of her daughter, I still think of her as a little girl.

KEEBLE: Yes.

GRACE: You know, to Darryl Cohen standing by at the courthouse, Darryl, I`m thinking about the judge. I`m thinking about Julie. And I know that this guy was caught last week with a shank, which is a homemade knife that`s made in the jail -- had brought a shank apparently to the courthouse. And it`s just beyond me how, knowing this -- and of course, we`re all on the outside looking in, we`re second guessing -- why the guy was not shackled -- Darryl?

COHEN: Nancy, as I understand it, he was found with two shanks and it wasn`t last week but it was either Wednesday night or Thursday morning of this week. And it`s beyond my comprehension why he wouldn`t have been shackled, why they would have had one deputy sheriff take him to the courthouse from the court from the holding cell to the courtroom, why that deputy sheriff would have had a weapon when he obviously could have done what he did.

You and I have talked about this for years, prosecutors, defense lawyers, witnesses, we all walk into courtroom basically with nothing other than our clothing and pen.

GRACE: Yep.

COHEN: And we have talked about that what if so many times, because we have seen how lax the security can sometimes be. And it`s not the people. It`s the procedures. And it`s the training. And it happened. And I hope that this becomes a teachable moment where this never happens again and they re-evaluate these procedures and make sure that, if there`s a weapon, that it`s not held by the person who was actually escorting a perpetrator or a prisoner. That`s just inexcusable.

GRACE: Well, you know, I hear what you`re saying but, Al, with the deputies don`t have guns, if they don`t have weapons, then what are you going to do when one of these inmates takes somebody hostage with a shank from the jail or with something they`ve gotten there in the courthouse?

I mean, Al, is there an answer? Are we just looking for answers when there aren`t any? No matter what you do, Al, you`re still working with violent felons. I mean, that`s the bottom line. We lawyers are in the courtroom with a stack of papers, and a writing pen, and 50 violent felons. Now, what do you think?

DIXON: The deputies are trained how to handle inmates. But these things happen sometimes. I mean, this is -- and all this is under investigation and...

GRACE: But Roland didn`t even have the buzz-in security. Explain.

DIXON: Well, he did. And apparently that was off. I mean, it was equipped with that. There is a monitor there that they can see what`s going in and out of the courtroom.

GRACE: I thought that Judge Barnes said, "Open," that his security -- you didn`t have to buzz into his chambers.

DIXON: He didn`t want people to have to buzz in. He liked being over in the old courthouse because of that. Over in the new courthouse, of course, you have to come through the secure area before you can get back to where the judge`s chambers are.

BESSEN: Two security areas.

DIXON: And so there`s a lot of unanswered questions that I`m sure will be answered and there will be some changes that take place at the Fulton County courthouse.

GRACE: Judge Bessen, do you pass through a metal detector when you go into the courthouse?

BESSEN: No, we don`t. The judges are fortunate. We enter through a secure parking deck that`s under the building. Now, every place that we do travel, though, where the judges are kept, we have to -- we can only pass with card keys.

And I have to say, I mean, in -- I was a part-time magistrate back when Roland was a magistrate and worked with him at that time. And, so I`ve been around the courthouse for about eight years or so. And through all that time, I just can tell you I have never felt insecure.

And all the judges, and I mean, you consider the judges and the staff that are down there every day, the deputies. It is clearly going to be a new day in Fulton County. There will be some concern about that. And it`s really -- it`s sad to think that I will, in the back of my mind, always be wondering and questioning when in the past I always did feel very safe at the courthouse.

GRACE: Yes. You know, Judge, I`ll throw this to you, Renee, we always felt the same way. You know, it just never -- maybe we didn`t want to think about what could happen. But, I mean, you and I, and individually, have been back in pre-trials with 15 felons talking to them and their lawyers and maybe one sheriff at the door.

ROCKWELL: At the door one sheriff, one gun, 50 prisoners, prisoners sometimes that don`t have anything else to lose. But this guy was different because he had already escaped. He had gotten the gun, he had gotten away from the deputy, and he went back into the courtroom looking for Judge Barnes. And that`s the problem.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: ... different building. Made it all the way...

ROCKWELL: Different building, yes.

GRACE: And I went to the courthouse today to check out his route. This guy clearly -- I don`t know if police are going to release this -- came down eight flights of stairs. There`s a glass stairway. You can see somebody coming down the stairs from outside. You can look in from outside. And made it out of the building, he`s gone. Nobody knows where Brian Nichols is.

Elizabeth, could you role that bite from the sheriff, please?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MYRON FREEMAN, FULTON COUNTY SHERIFF: Mr. Nichols is considered armed and extremely dangerous and should not be approached. How Mr. Nichols allegedly came into possession of the weapon and the circumstances surrounding the shooting are still under investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tell me about Thanksgiving dinner.

ROCKWELL: The reason Judge Barnes was in his old courtroom is because he loved and traditionally he had a Thanksgiving dinner.

And, Nancy, you know the difference between the old courtroom and the new courthouse. The old courtrooms have big, grand courtrooms. The office was big. They had a kitchen. And every year on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, Judge Barnes had over 300 people traipsing through his courtroom. He cooked turkeys, he`d have dressing, he`d have cranberries, and Julie would cook too. And they just entertained anybody that came to the courthouse.

COHEN: And, Nancy, it was like that most every day in Judge Barnes` chambers.

GRACE: Tell me.

COHEN: I mean, it`s like one big family in the judge`s chambers. And they would always have coffee, and bagels, and doughnuts for the lawyers that came into the courthouse.

GRACE: I was reading a quote by Judge Barnes, Roland Barnes, about his calendar clerk, my friend, Julie Brandau. He says, "She is our court reporter, and every day of trial she creates something special for our jurors. They`ve had everything from peach bread to oatmeal cookies." And when you went in today, she had it spread out for the jurors.

COHEN: It was in the jury room on a tray waiting on the jury.

GRACE: Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WANDA TAMPLIN, EYEWITNESS: ... heard a shot, and I see this guy run by. At that point, I`m kind of panicked.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COURTHOUSE EMPLOYEE, FULTON COUNTY COURT: Very sad to hear this. You know, these people, I`m sure, have family. And that makes me sad to know that they have probably children and grandchildren.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Thank you for being with us tonight on a special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta and the deadly courthouse shooting. Three colleagues down in a court of law. Again, thank you for being with us.

Gary Tuchman, what can you tell me about the status of Brian Nichols tonight, any word?

TUCHMAN: Nancy, not any word at all. We have asked district attorneys. We have asked police. We have asked sheriff`s deputies. We`ve asked some of the feds on the scene. "What do you know?" If they know something, they`re not telling us.

All they`re saying is there`s a national search going on right now. They do have locations of interest they`re looking at which would namely be the homes, the residences of his family and friends.

One thing you mentioned before, Nancy, that`s really important and it`s very chilling, the fact is that Brian Nichols jeopardized his escape plans by doing what he did. He took that gun from the deputy and he could have just gone down that glass staircase that you were talking about.

But, instead, he decided to take the time to go across a pedestrian bridge into the old courthouse which is next door to go inside that courtroom where his rape case was going on and fire those shots that killed two people inside that courtroom. So he actually jeopardized his escape to get what had appeared was revenge. Then he did escape. But the fact was, he delayed a lot of time because he wanted to go into that courtroom.

GRACE: You know, Al, the assistant district attorney -- actually, Elizabeth, we have a bite from Gail, correct? Could you roll that, please?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GAIL ABRAMSON, FULTON COUNTY ASST. D.A.: I do think that, in his mind, he knew he was going to be convicted this time. And so I think that he was just seeking revenge to the criminal justice system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Al, I guess she`s under protective custody, I would hope, tonight. Because this guy jeopardized his own escape on a rape charge to come back to the courtroom to kill the judge and the court reporter. If that woman, Gail Abramson, had been in that courtroom, she would be dead right now. What`s to say he`s not after her tonight?

DIXON: Well, I think that`s correct. I mean, I think he came over to the courtroom to kill the people that had been prosecuting him and the people that were involved in his trial. And I`m sure she is safe.

GRACE: You know, it`s still amazing to me that this guy was caught with two shanks in his shoe a couple of days ago, Darryl Cohen, as you were pointing out, and still was unshackled with a single sheriff.

This is a clear security risk. This is a guy who just beat a rape charge and an ag-sodomy charge, had a machine gun-type weapon with him at the time he kidnapped a girl. And he is unshackled with one female sheriff, Darryl.

COHEN: I cannot even now fathom it. It`s something that as an ex- prosecutor, ex-D.A., ex-assistant state attorney, it`s something that I just cannot understand.

And you and I have talked about it, Nancy. The security in the Fulton County courthouse has not had the type of procedures that is we felt were necessary to protect everybody. And, certainly, things can happen.

If he was across the street and he decided -- he was on bond and wanted to take a shot, you can understand that. You may not be able to protect that. But inside the courthouse...

GRACE: In the courtroom. In the courtroom.

COHEN: In the courtroom.

GRACE: And I wish the viewers could see that courtroom, Darryl. I have tried cases in there, huge courtroom. It looks like it`s out of "To Kill a Mockingbird," gigantic courtroom. I can see Judge Barnes having his Thanksgiving meal in there, the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, for everybody as clear as a bell.

I want to talk for a moment about the court reporter, Julie.

Renee, she took down many of our trials, many of our plea calendars. She was what they call a floater for a while. She`d go from courtroom to courtroom. You have got a story?

ROCKWELL: Just she, of course, was famous for making the snacks and everything. But Nancy, she was a big fan of yours. And last time I saw her, we were in a hearing. And she was taking the case down, and she looked at me, and she kind of waved to me, and she said, "Tell Nancy I said, `Hi.`" Because I know she had come to visit you not too, too long ago when she was in New York.

And it`s tragic. And you`d think that -- I think what happens is we`re in court, we`re around the bad guys all the time. I`m a defense attorney. But sometimes it might get just too lax, and we just get used to it, and you just can`t forget that these people, some of them with nothing to lose, they`re within inches away from these deputies` guns. And apparently this guy just took the opportunity to...

GRACE: Do you think that, Donna Keeble, as a court reporter, that -- remember all those days we`d be in court together, we`d be trying rape cases, about spree-killers, double murderers. You name it.

KEEBLE: On a daily, weekly basis.

GRACE: Never thought about that.

KEEBLE: You know, you`re dealing with desperate people who will take desperate measures. And if you don`t look at it, if you get too lax, anything can be overlooked. I mean, it`s just a daily thing, you know?

GRACE: And, Al, at this juncture, when Brian Nichols went into the courtroom, there was not a deputy in there.

DIXON: Judge Barnes was doing a civil motions hearing. And so there would not be a deputy. There could be a deputy inside the courtroom. He has a deputy that`s assigned to his courtroom. But for a civil hearing, many times, there`s not a deputy.

GRACE: Darryl, you have tried cases in that courtroom, too. It`s not unlike practically every other courtroom in the courthouse. What`s your answer, if you`ve got one?

COHEN: Well, I don`t know that I have the answer, but I can tell you this: Knowing that he was a danger, knowing what he was charged with, knowing that he was being brought over, there should have been deputies ready to take over from the sergeant that was taking him to the courtroom.

The fact that Judge Barnes was trying a civil matter at the time was almost irrelevant, because as soon as that civil matter was to be concluded, the trial was to start back up. I just cannot believe the lack of proper procedure.

GRACE: You know, Al, I have only got about 30 seconds before we go to break, but this is the kind of judge Barnes was. He had a criminal case going down, a jury waiting in the wings, and he was trying to do a civil calendar before court started at 9 o`clock.

DIXON: That`s right. I mean, he was on the bench doing what he was elected to do.

GRACE: Al, did he go with his boots on?

DIXON: He had his boots and his jeans on, and his robe.

GRACE: We`re live in Atlanta and a special edition of NANCY GRACE. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEP. CHIEF ALAN DREHER, ATLANTA POLICE: He overwhelmed a deputy sheriff on his way to court. It appears that he took possession of her handgun. The deputy sheriff was injured as a result of that struggle. The suspect made his way into the courtroom and held all the persons inside at bay with a handgun. He then shot and killed the judge, shot and killed the court stenographer, and made his escape from the court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back to a special edition of NANCY GRACE. We are live in Atlanta and the deadly courthouse shooting.

With me, Deputy Assistant District Attorney Al Dixon.

Al, everyday prosecutors, and public defenders, and judges, and court reporters show up unarmed with nothing but this and this.

DIXON: That`s right, Nancy. And when you are in the courtroom, I mean, you are thinking about the case you`re trying. You are thinking about, you know, what`s happening in the courtroom. You just really never give it a thought about something like this happening in the courtroom. And you depend on those deputies to protect you. And they do a good job.

GRACE: Renee, final thought?

ROCKWELL: I`m thinking about Gail right now. Because obviously this animal who escaped this deputy went back into the courtroom looking for the people involved with the case. I`m thinking about Gail and I know she is safe, but I`ll feel much better once he`s apprehended.

GRACE: Tonight, Brian Nichols still on the loose. As we say good night, I want to thank all of my wonderful guests, my friends, defense attorney Renee Rockwell, prosecutor Al Dixon, court reporter Donna Keeble, Judge Diane Bessen, Darryl Cohen, defense attorney, Dr. Salomone, CNN`s Gary Tuchman.

My biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight on this dark, dark night. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. Good night, friend.

END